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View Full Version : Just What Did Herm Improve This Season?


TEX
01-01-2008, 09:42 AM
I admit I'm a "Herm Basher", but I'll play the "give- him- the -benefit- of -the- doubt" game by trying to see how he improved the team in this his 2nd year as HC. After year 2, the team should at least improve in some way - right? Did it? It should have some sort of identity/direction - right? Does it? Did any preseason plan work out? Going into the season we had issues at QB, OL, DL, FB, Special Teams, FS & SS and now we still have most - if not all of the same issues - plus more. How can anyone support this guy? Am I missing something?

JBucc
01-01-2008, 09:43 AM
Our draft position. It was his plan all along. We only won those games at the beginning of the season to make it look like we were trying.

TEX
01-01-2008, 09:45 AM
Our draft position. It was his plan all along. We only won those games at the beginning of the season to make it look like we were trying.

ROFL
Well I know that and we drafted Bowe and he was very successful in a shit offence but is there anything else?

doomy3
01-01-2008, 09:47 AM
Well, to answer your original question, we improved at DLine and got younger at several positions. Younger sometimes (most of the time) means worse for a couple years.

doomy3
01-01-2008, 09:47 AM
We also improved at WR. Without our second best receiver for pretty much all the season.

Mr. Laz
01-01-2008, 09:48 AM
added a few young starters and made the 32 defense average.

BCD
01-01-2008, 09:52 AM
I'm not a big fan of Herm, but I am willing to give him another shot. He needs to make changes on the coaching staff. Complete changes. I'd love to see Solari and Curl gone. We need a fresh, young, offensive guy in here. Defense, too.

TEX
01-01-2008, 09:55 AM
added a few young starters and made the 32 defense average.

Are we really average or below? I know we're still terrible against the run.

BCD
01-01-2008, 09:57 AM
I know we're still terrible against the run.Yes we are. I like Sedrick Ellis. Dorsey won't be available.

doomy3
01-01-2008, 09:57 AM
Are we really average or below? I know we're still terrible against the run.


We're at least average. 13th in yards allowed and 14th in points allowed.

TEX
01-01-2008, 10:00 AM
Well, to answer your original question, we improved at DLine and got younger at several positions. Younger sometimes (most of the time) means worse for a couple years.

I understand that concept. Maybe Tank and Turk wil pan out down the road - along with the two kids in the secondary.

DeezNutz
01-01-2008, 10:00 AM
Everyone agrees that Herm is Tony Dungy's protege, correct? This is why I get a bit confused about the contention that Herm wants to play "Herm/Marty ball" and score zero points. To believe this means to believe that Herm looks at his mentor's team and says, "They have it all wrong... :shake:"

His relationship with Dungy makes me want to believe that Herm would change based on personnel.

TEX
01-01-2008, 10:02 AM
We're at least average. 13th in yards allowed and 14th in points allowed.

What were we his first year?

Deberg_1990
01-01-2008, 10:02 AM
we improved at DLine

We did??

Teams still run all over us at will...

doomy3
01-01-2008, 10:03 AM
Everyone agrees that Herm is Tony Dungy's protege, correct? This is why I get a bit confused about the contention that Herm wants to play "Herm/Marty ball" and score zero points. To believe this means to believe that Herm looks at his mentor's team and says, "They have it all wrong... :shake:"

His relationship with Dungy makes me want to believe that Herm would change based on personnel.


But it's way easier to just hate Herm with everything you have in you apparently.

TEX
01-01-2008, 10:03 AM
I'm not a big fan of Herm, but I am willing to give him another shot. He needs to make changes on the coaching staff. Complete changes. I'd love to see Solari and Curl gone. We need a fresh, young, offensive guy in here. Defense, too.

I'd like to see a total house cleaning from top to bottom. I know that's not gonna happen but I'll take what I can get - so I'm with ya here.

doomy3
01-01-2008, 10:04 AM
We did??

Teams still run all over us at will...


So, are you saying that JA didn't get better this year? Is Hali not an improvement over Hicks? Boone over Simms?

Bill Parcells
01-01-2008, 10:07 AM
We did??

Teams still run all over us at will...
The Jets have an atrocious offensive line, and it was making swiss cheese out of the Chiefs D Line in the second half on Sunday. that should be embarrassing.

Deberg_1990
01-01-2008, 10:07 AM
So, are you saying that JA didn't get better this year? Is Hali not an improvement over Hicks? Boone over Simms?

OK, they have improved some. But they were truly awful before Herm arrived so they had nowhere to go but up. Its still not where it needs to be because we dont have a consistent FORCE in the middle. Tank and Turk were duds.....

doomy3
01-01-2008, 10:12 AM
OK, they have improved some. But they were truly awful before Herm arrived so they had nowhere to go but up. Its still not where it needs to be because we dont have a consistent FORCE in the middle. Tank and Turk were duds.....


...in their first year. If they don't improve next year and the year after that, then they were busts. But they are rookies. And the fact that we were so awful before Herm got here just makes it harder to get good in a hurry. There were SO many holes. Basically every starter on the D needed to be replaced, save JA and DJ. When Herm got here, McCleon was still a starter IIRC. Law hasn't been great in any sense of the word, but I think we would all agree our corner play is better in year 2 than it was with McCleon back there.

blueballs
01-01-2008, 10:18 AM
Anyone bitching about taking BPA is an idiot
that's a slight improvement around here

TEX
01-01-2008, 10:28 AM
The Jets have an atrocious offensive line, and it was making swiss cheese out of the Chiefs D Line in the second half on Sunday. that should be embarrassing.

Most teams did the same thing over the 2nd half of the season.

TN_Chief
01-01-2008, 10:31 AM
Herm improved the balance in his checking account. That's it.

TEX
01-01-2008, 10:33 AM
...in their first year. If they don't improve next year and the year after that, then they were busts. But they are rookies. And the fact that we were so awful before Herm got here just makes it harder to get good in a hurry. There were SO many holes. Basically every starter on the D needed to be replaced, save JA and DJ. When Herm got here, McCleon was still a starter IIRC. Law hasn't been great in any sense of the word, but I think we would all agree our corner play is better in year 2 than it was with McCleon back there.

That's my point. Where was the improvement in the team THIS year over last? I undertand that players drafted last season might not contribute until next season. I just want to know how we improved this past season as a team. So far we improved a bit on defense but not nearly as much as we should have, especially against the run - and we added a good, young WR.

Stinger
01-01-2008, 10:35 AM
Tank and Turk were duds.....

I believe Mario Williams with Houston had the same things said about him last year and Reggie Bush was the clear winner in that draft. Just curious where those people are now?

Rookies in a brand new defensive schemes seem to take a year or two to get up to speed. Look at DJ... he has consitantly gotten better after his rookie year. What more could you ask?

doomy3
01-01-2008, 10:41 AM
That's my point. Where was the improvement in the team THIS year over last? I undertand that players drafted last season might not contribute until next season. I just want to know how we improved this past season as a team. So far we improved a bit on defense but not nearly as much as we should have, especially against the run - and we added a good, young WR.


We started 2 second year safeties, a second year QB, and a rookie WR. That's the improvement over last year. It's not statistics, but that's what the organization needed to do. I would guess that next year, we will be young at CB, OLine, Tank and Turk will be playing, one starting. We will suck again because our team will be filled with players who are in their first through third seasons, and everyone will want Herm fired because we are having back to back bad seasons, which happens in a rebuild, which all these fans were supposedly ready for.

doomy3
01-01-2008, 10:42 AM
I believe Mario Williams with Houston had the same things said about him last year and Reggie Bush was the clear winner in that draft. Just curious where those people are now?

Rookies in a brand new defensive schemes seem to take a year or two to get up to speed. Look at DJ... he has consitantly gotten better after his rookie year. What more could you ask?


Truth.

mlyonsd
01-01-2008, 10:48 AM
A good GM and good coaches improve more than one thing at a time.

Unfortunately our defense sucked almost as bad as our offense coming down the stretch.

I mean you can't find a worse playing team than the Chiefs the last few games.

THAT in my mind is the leading indicator on who's steering the ship.

TEX
01-01-2008, 12:02 PM
We started 2 second year safeties, a second year QB, and a rookie WR. That's the improvement over last year. It's not statistics, but that's what the organization needed to do. I would guess that next year, we will be young at CB, OLine, Tank and Turk will be playing, one starting. We will suck again because our team will be filled with players who are in their first through third seasons, and everyone will want Herm fired because we are having back to back bad seasons, which happens in a rebuild, which all these fans were supposedly ready for.

How is it an improvement if the QB or the Safeties didn't get better? The rookie WR was an improvement as many have stated. We were ready for a rebuild - not one by default - which is exactly what happened. Only aftet the fact did we consider it a rebuild.

TEX
01-01-2008, 12:03 PM
A good GM and good coaches improve more than one thing at a time.

Unfortunately our defense sucked almost as bad as our offense coming down the stretch.

I mean you can't find a worse playing team than the Chiefs the last few games.

THAT in my mind is the leading indicator on who's steering the ship.

Exactly. But that's no doubt D.V.'s fault too... :rolleyes:

doomy3
01-01-2008, 12:06 PM
How is it an improvement if the QB or the Safeties didn't get better? The rookie WR was an improvement as many have stated. We were ready for a rebuild - not one by default - which is exactly what happened. Only aftet the fact did we consider it a rebuild.


Are you suggesting that Pollard and Page aren't better today than they were this time last year?

And I firmly believe that Herm fully wanted to and intended to use this year to start the rebuild process, but Carl wouldn't let him. The worst thing that could have happened is us making the playoffs last year as far as starting the rebuild process is concerned.

morphius
01-01-2008, 12:08 PM
We dumped an ex pro-bowl returner for a even worse ex pro-bowl returner by just giving him the spot when someone played better in TC then he did. Then we tried to cover up the mistake by actually trying him as a WR, which was worthless. That was a pretty impressive move.

doomy3
01-01-2008, 12:11 PM
We dumped an ex pro-bowl returner for a even worse ex pro-bowl returner by just giving him the spot when someone played better in TC then he did. Then we tried to cover up the mistake by actually trying him as a WR, which was worthless. That was a pretty impressive move.


Yep, the Drummond thing was terrible. No doubt about that.

It was still the right move to dump Hall though. That netted us Kolby Smith and we dumped Hall's salary in the process. As bad as Drummond sucked, I would take the Hall for Kolby and Drumond trade any day of the week.

We should have played someone young as the returner though, no doubt.

morphius
01-01-2008, 12:19 PM
Yep, the Drummond thing was terrible. No doubt about that.

It was still the right move to dump Hall though. That netted us Kolby Smith and we dumped Hall's salary in the process. As bad as Drummond sucked, I would take the Hall for Kolby and Drumond trade any day of the week.

We should have played someone young as the returner though, no doubt.
eh, with our un-blocking scheme Hall wouldn't have helped anyway. I'm just not sure that I really saw improvement anywhere on the team. Losing Kennison really showed how weak we were at WR, I'm really not sure that our DB's have improved much, Page seemed to almost take a step back, and I didn't see a lot from Pollard either. blah, blah, blah...

TEX
01-01-2008, 12:24 PM
We dumped an ex pro-bowl returner for a even worse ex pro-bowl returner by just giving him the spot when someone played better in TC then he did. Then we tried to cover up the mistake by actually trying him as a WR, which was worthless. That was a pretty impressive move.


It seems that we totally blew the big "plans" like that, especially concerning Special Teams. The Kicker was just as much of a fiasco. Come to think about it, so were the QB and OL decisions. You're right - very "impresive" indeed. When you miss on most decisions, you do things like lose a franchise record 9 in a row. That's why I see this season as such a waste. Where was the improvement? We STILL have most of the same questions we had going into the season. That falls squarely on CP & Herm. And their jobs are safe. That's pathetic. :shake:

doomy3
01-01-2008, 12:26 PM
It seems that we totally blew the big "plans" like that, especially concerning Special Teams. The Kicker was just as much of a fiasco. Come to think about it, so were the QB and OL decisions. You're right - very "impresive" indeeed. When you miss on most decisions, you do things like lose a franchise record 9 in a row. That's why I see this season as such a waste. We STILL have most of the same questions we had going into the season. That falls squarely on CP & Herm. And their jobs are safe. That's pathetic. :shake:


A little off topic, but every time I read one of your posts, I picture Jack Harry. I have no idea what you look like, but in my head, you are Jack Harry.

HonestChieffan
01-01-2008, 12:30 PM
In the long run it wont matter. Herm is Herm. He wont get better over the next 3 years. He will leave a stain on this team for years.

TEX
01-01-2008, 12:30 PM
A little off topic, but every time I read one of your posts, I picture Jack Harry. I have no idea what you look like, but in my head, you are Jack Harry.

ROFL
If this helps, I've been told I look like Scott Baio.

TEX
01-01-2008, 12:34 PM
In the long run it wont matter. Herm is Herm. He wont get better over the next 3 years. He will leave a stain on this team for years.

I feel the same way. He's just a "blip" in Chiefs history, but he'll be remembered for alot longer for screwing things up. It kind of pisses me off in that I've invested a lifetime in the Chiefs, and this is what I get.

HonestChieffan
01-01-2008, 12:41 PM
He is one day closer every day to being fired. Thats progress.

doomy3
01-01-2008, 12:43 PM
I'm going to step out of this thread and let you two angry lynchers go to work now

Mecca
01-01-2008, 12:47 PM
Are you suggesting that Pollard and Page aren't better today than they were this time last year?

And I firmly believe that Herm fully wanted to and intended to use this year to start the rebuild process, but Carl wouldn't let him. The worst thing that could have happened is us making the playoffs last year as far as starting the rebuild process is concerned.

Page still can't tackle and Pollard is still slow and out of position all the time...

TEX
01-01-2008, 01:09 PM
I'm going to step out of this thread and let you two angry lynchers go to work now

Okay. You belong in the "Herm is a good coach thread" anyway. Next stop - Fantacy Land. ;)

HonestChieffan
01-01-2008, 01:13 PM
I have simple wants. Herm gone and my thread starting privledges, a cold beer, heck im happy.

TEX
01-01-2008, 01:14 PM
Are you suggesting that Pollard and Page aren't better today than they were this time last year?

And I firmly believe that Herm fully wanted to and intended to use this year to start the rebuild process, but Carl wouldn't let him. The worst thing that could have happened is us making the playoffs last year as far as starting the rebuild process is concerned.

Yep. Pollard is S-L-O-W and is always out of position and Page can't tackle to save his life. If someone's teaching them - they ain't learning.

And you got this from a brief statement on Hard Knox where Carl said that we needed to try and win games when discussing the QB situation? What did Herm look like on that show? To me he looked like a bad coach who talked alot but disn't have a clue as to what he was doing. Which is exactly his teams always get of to slow starts to begin the season.

I agree with you in that Herm making the playoffs with DV's roster was indeed a bad thing. But, no way he makes it with his own roster.

Messier
01-01-2008, 03:04 PM
Yep. Pollard is S-L-O-W and is always out of position and Page can't tackle to save his life. If someone's teaching them - they ain't learning.

And you got this from a brief statement on Hard Knox where Carl said that we needed to try and win games when discussing the QB situation? What did Herm look like on that show? To me he looked like a bad coach who talked alot but disn't have a clue as to what he was doing. Which is exactly his teams always get of to slow starts to begin the season.

I agree with you in that Herm making the playoffs with DV's roster was indeed a bad thing. But, no way he makes it with his own roster.


Pollard is not always out of position. He started getting better as the season went on, by the last four games or so he was in position to make plays. He was all over in the Lions game. I'm sorry but I think he's working out.

Herm will coach here at least two more years. I think he'll have this team turned around by 09.

HonestChieffan
01-01-2008, 03:08 PM
If we had a 10 game preseason, pollard would be a star.

Messier
01-01-2008, 03:18 PM
By the way, nothing improved this season except for JA, and drafting the best receiver the Chiefs have had in twenty years. That's kind of what happens on bad teams. Nothing looks good. The Chiefs aren't good, this is something all Chiefs fans can agree on. Where Chiefs fans split, is on why the Chiefs are bad, most here think Herm made the Chiefs bad, or at least isn't helping. I tend to believe that Vermeil made the team what it is, that if you want to find out what a team will look like in five years look at how today's drafts are working out, under Vermeil it was a lot of defensive busts. I wish that half of those horrible DT's that Vermeil drafted were o-linemen maybe our line would have been ready for the retirement of Roaf and Shields.

HemiEd
01-01-2008, 05:21 PM
Nothing, not a ****ing thing.

Spott
01-01-2008, 05:26 PM
He improved the accessibility for the fans to travel to and from Arrowhead. Now that that the stands are half full, there are a lot less traffic jams before and after the games.

Calcountry
01-01-2008, 05:34 PM
Let's not even mention, how Herm uses up running backs like tissue paper.

Saleenman607
01-01-2008, 06:32 PM
By the way, nothing improved this season except for JA, and drafting the best receiver the Chiefs have had in twenty years. That's kind of what happens on bad teams. Nothing looks good. The Chiefs aren't good, this is something all Chiefs fans can agree on. Where Chiefs fans split, is on why the Chiefs are bad, most here think Herm made the Chiefs bad, or at least isn't helping. I tend to believe that Vermeil made the team what it is, that if you want to find out what a team will look like in five years look at how today's drafts are working out, under Vermeil it was a lot of defensive busts. I wish that half of those horrible DT's that Vermeil drafted were o-linemen maybe our line would have been ready for the retirement of Roaf and Shields.


When I look at a team, I tend to look at the basics: TACKLING, EXECUTION, PENALTIES, TIME MANAGEMENT, GAME PLANS. Not wins and losses, time of possession, total yards, YAC and such things. I'll qualify that by saying I do that for teams in the bottom 3rd of the league. This team (IMO) is NOT doing even the basics correct. How hard is it to coach a professional football player to tackle? Does anyone have a missed tackle number for these Chiefs? I do not see ANY improvement on this team. Individuals.....yes, a few. This is a team heading nowhere. Hey Gunther.....teach someone to tackle for the love of God!!!

TEX
01-01-2008, 09:07 PM
When I look at a team, I tend to look at the basics: TACKLING, EXECUTION, PENALTIES, TIME MANAGEMENT, GAME PLANS. Not wins and losses, time of possession, total yards, YAC and such things. I'll qualify that by saying I do that for teams in the bottom 3rd of the league. This team (IMO) is NOT doing even the basics correct. How hard is it to coach a professional football player to tackle? Does anyone have a missed tackle number for these Chiefs? I do not see ANY improvement on this team. Individuals.....yes, a few. This is a team heading nowhere. Hey Gunther.....teach someone to tackle for the love of God!!!

:clap:

Phobia
01-01-2008, 09:14 PM
He improved apathy.

FAX
01-01-2008, 09:18 PM
When I look at a team, I tend to look at the basics: TACKLING, EXECUTION, PENALTIES, TIME MANAGEMENT, GAME PLANS. Not wins and losses, time of possession, total yards, YAC and such things. I'll qualify that by saying I do that for teams in the bottom 3rd of the league. This team (IMO) is NOT doing even the basics correct. How hard is it to coach a professional football player to tackle? Does anyone have a missed tackle number for these Chiefs? I do not see ANY improvement on this team. Individuals.....yes, a few. This is a team heading nowhere. Hey Gunther.....teach someone to tackle for the love of God!!!

I'm all for improving our tackling, Mr. Saleenman607. But, first we have to start playing those pesky gap assignments correctly.

FAX