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'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2008, 05:02 PM
Other than the fact that we see him prove it on the field.

The McBride pick was a waste of a prime draft spot

The McBride pick cost us a chance at Ryan Kalil

The McBride pick may very well cause us to pass on Sedrick Ellis and take a less effective player like Jake Long because Herm will think that Turk still has potential.

F*ck.

Silock
01-01-2008, 05:11 PM
He's a rookie.

I hate the fact that our society is so ingrained with the instant gratification mindset that we lose patience with absolutely everything.

He might turn out to suck, like you say. Or he might be good. He needs more time.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2008, 05:15 PM
It's not just about McBride, it reflects how our need-based strategy of drafting f*cks us continually.

Mr. Laz
01-01-2008, 05:15 PM
This thread was very misleading

i thought i was actually going to hear a "why" that Turk McBride sucks ..... and here i am with no proof that he even DOES suck.

DaneMcCloud
01-01-2008, 05:15 PM
Other than the fact that we see him prove it on the field.

The McBride pick was a waste of a prime draft spot

The McBride pick cost us a chance at Ryan Kalil

The McBride pick may very well cause us to pass on Sedrick Ellis and take a less effective player like Jake Long because Herm will think that Turk still has potential.

F*ck.

Alright, Genius. Google the 2007 NFL draft. In the majority of mock drafts, Turk was a high second round choice and Tank was a low second round choice.

The Chiefs based their evaluations of Turk & Tank the same as just about anyone else scouting or drafting. Neither can be considered "reaches".

Additionally, please provide an example of a recent second round DT drafted by ANY NFL team that dominated.

el borracho
01-01-2008, 05:17 PM
Well, I would give Turk (and Tyler) more time to develop but he certainly hasn't done anything that would indicate we are set at the position. If Herm and/ or Carl think we are set at DT then they are even less intelligent than I thought.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2008, 05:18 PM
Alright, Genius. Google the 2007 NFL draft. In the majority of mock drafts, Turk was a high second round choice and Tank was a low second round choice.

The Chiefs based their evaluations of Turk & Tank the same as just about anyone else scouting or drafting. Neither can be considered "reaches".

Additionally, please provide an example of a recent second round DT drafted by ANY NFL team that dominated.

Kris Jenkins, Shaun Rogers to name a couple, f*cktard.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2008, 05:24 PM
I just see the McBride pick as the worst of the Chiefs. In addition to the aforementioned reasons in the first post, it's also a prime example of Carl drafting a player in order to leverage another, not because he was the BPA.

morphius
01-01-2008, 05:27 PM
I just see the McBride pick as the worst of the Chiefs. In addition to the aforementioned reasons in the first post, it's also a prime example of Carl drafting a player in order to leverage another, not because he was the BPA.
I looked at it as a way to dump Eric Hicks...

Chiefmanwillcatch
01-01-2008, 05:28 PM
Defensive ends need speed and quickness to succeed.

I don't see it.

Tyler showed me some things but we need to see more improvement.

Anyone know of any Dtackles in the draft last season that helped their teams?

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2008, 05:29 PM
I looked at it as a way to dump Eric Hicks...


If it was the reasoning, I'd like it a lot more, but it seemed like we wasted a 2nd rounder on a guy to be insurance for a four game window of Jared Allen and to show him that we have another warm body to take his place.

DaneMcCloud
01-01-2008, 05:31 PM
Kris Jenkins, Shaun Rogers to name a couple, f*cktard.

Shaun Rogers had ankle surgery after the 2000 season and slipped to the second round of the 2001 draft because most teams felt he would miss his entire rookie season, making it a blown pick. Had he not broken his leg, he most certainly would have been a first round pick.

In 16 games, Kris Jenkins had 34 tackles in his first season. I wouldn't exactly call that dominant.

FAX
01-01-2008, 05:33 PM
I think about the twin turds the same way I think about Croyle. It's really difficult to know if they're going to pan out or not at this point, Mr. 'Hamas' Jenkins.

The unfortunate fact is that our coaching staff is a gaggle of knuckleheads trying to organize a goat f*ck. All we really know is that it's not suitable for small children, pregnant women, or anybody with a pacemaker or a stent.

As for affecting this year's draft, you may be right. Either way, it's going to be interesting to see what our brain trust does. If the reports are true that we're not planning to be very active in FA, they better draft their asses off.

FAX

Messier
01-01-2008, 05:34 PM
I just see the McBride pick as the worst of the Chiefs. In addition to the aforementioned reasons in the first post, it's also a prime example of Carl drafting a player in order to leverage another, not because he was the BPA.

It was a pick at a need position in the spot where he was projected to go. If he doesn't work out he can join the other 1/3 or so of other picks that don't.

Silock
01-01-2008, 05:34 PM
It's not just about McBride, it reflects how our need-based strategy of drafting f*cks us continually.

You won't get any disagreement from me there. However, I think this year, we're in a position to just go BAA on all picks.

FAX
01-01-2008, 05:35 PM
It was a pick at a need position in the spot where he was projected to go. If he doesn't work out he can join the other 1/3 or so of other picks that don't.

1/3 ?

No offense, Mr. Messier peep, but where did that number come from?

FAX

Messier
01-01-2008, 05:37 PM
1/3 ?

No offense, Mr. Messier peep, but where did that number come from?

FAX


Wow! You think more than 2/3 of draft picks work out? I thought I was being kind.

DaneMcCloud
01-01-2008, 05:38 PM
The McBride pick cost us a chance at Ryan Kalil


Ryan Kalil? Ha.

How about Samson Satele? He started all 16 games and played very well for Miami.

Kalil only played in 5 games.

Regardless, the Chiefs thought they were set with Weigman at center so they weren't going to take Satele or Kalil anyway.

alanm
01-01-2008, 05:39 PM
I knew I could count on you to be optimistic at the start of the New Year. :thumb:

FAX
01-01-2008, 05:41 PM
Wow! You think more than 2/3 of draft picks work out? I thought I was being kind.

No. Not really. I believe ChiefsPlanet research has proven that, during Carl's tenure, somewhere around 10% of our draft picks have worked out in the sense that they actually helped the team win actual games during the actual football season.

FAX

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2008, 05:52 PM
How could you think you were set at Center with a 34 year old undersized guy playing in the wrong scheme?

Messier
01-01-2008, 05:58 PM
No. Not really. I believe ChiefsPlanet research has proven that, during Carl's tenure, somewhere around 10% of our draft picks have worked out in the sense that they actually helped the team win actual games during the actual football season.

FAX


Oh no, I meant for all teams. I'd say less than 2/3 of picks work out. I'd say it's more like 1/2.

DaneMcCloud
01-01-2008, 05:59 PM
How could you think you were set at Center with a 34 year old undersized guy playing in the wrong scheme?

Hey, I didn't say *I* thought they were set. The Chiefs thought that.

I don't know how the entire front office felt like the team could have ANY success when every offensive lineman (including their tight ends Gonzalez and Dunn) were over the age of 30. 30! Every f*cking one of those guys.

It's a mystery.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2008, 06:02 PM
Hey, I didn't say *I* thought they were set. The Chiefs thought that.

I don't know how the entire front office felt like the team could have ANY success when every offensive lineman (including their tight ends Gonzalez and Dunn) were over the age of 30. 30! Every f*cking one of those guys.

It's a mystery.

It was a rhetorical "you". How you could pass up two high quality centers for a tweener DE/DT is mindf*ckingboggling. It's not like he's a tweener DE/OLB in a 3-4

Wile_E_Coyote
01-01-2008, 06:02 PM
They thought Niswanger was the COF. What happened?

OnTheWarpath58
01-01-2008, 06:11 PM
They thought Niswanger was the COF. What happened?

Hell, the previous regime thought Jared Allen was the LSOTF.

Maybe Herm thinks Rudy can be a DT?


:p

DaneMcCloud
01-01-2008, 06:33 PM
They thought Niswanger was the COF. What happened?

I don't know where that "rumor" came from but maybe since he played all five positions along the offensive line at LSU, someone thought he'd be a capable center.

Personally, I felt that Niswanger played very well at right guard and that's where he should stay.

Moving Jordan Black around is what ultimately hindered his play in KC. I don't want to see that happen with another promising player.

BigRock
01-01-2008, 06:39 PM
How you could pass up two high quality centers for a tweener DE/DT is mindf*ckingboggling.

I thought you were rallying against the idea of drafting for need. Now we should have done that instead of taking Turk?

Regardless, I really can't imagine Herm sitting there on draft day going "Well, this DT is the highest rated player on our board and one of the 4-5 best players in this draft. But, f*ck 'im, we've got TURK MCBRIDE!"

suds79
01-01-2008, 06:48 PM
The McBride pick may very well cause us to pass on Sedrick Ellis and take a less effective player like Jake Long because Herm will think that Turk still has potential.

F*ck.

That might actually be a good thing.

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

Of this years 6 Pro-Bowl DTs, I believe only one of them was lighter than 310.

So please don't waste time with this silly talk about cover 2 pass rushing, light in the pants, 285 lb DTs because it's all bull.

Just get the big fatties who command double teams.

Rain Man
01-01-2008, 06:53 PM
I don't know about McBride yet, but I think it is true that our second-round drafts inevitably stink. I think the reason is that Carl always selects someone at this pick with "good measurables" who wasn't on the traditional draft board, and it pretty much never works out. After 19 years, he's still never figured out that production on the field is what counts.

19 years of Carl's drafts, and what do these guys have in common, besides general suckage. Grunhard and Tongue are the only two who have been decent players for us.

2007 - Turk McBride
2006 - Bernard Pollard
2005 - (Trade for Surtain)
2004 - Junior Siavii/Kris Wilson
2003 - Kawika Mitchell
2002 - Eddie Freeman
2001 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
2000 - William Bartee
1999 - Mike Cloud
1998 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
1997 - Kevin Lockett
1996 - Reggie Tongue
1995 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
1994 - Donnell Bennett
1993 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
1992 - Darren Mickell EDIT: Matt Blundin, not Mickell. Mickell was a supplemental draft guy.
1991 - Joe Valerio
1990 - Tim Grunhard
1989 - Mike Elkins

morphius
01-01-2008, 06:54 PM
No. Not really. I believe ChiefsPlanet research has proven that, during Carl's tenure, somewhere around 10% of our draft picks have worked out in the sense that they actually helped the team win actual games during the actual football season.

FAX
Interestingly enough, without looking at names, and including IR I compared Denver and KC number of draft picks on the team...

16 of 64 Denver 25%
21 of 71 KC 29.5%

morphius
looked at a bunch of other teams, but they didn't have it easily available.

ChiefsLV
01-01-2008, 06:57 PM
IIRC, wasn't there a point on Hard Knocks where one of the Chiefs' staff was commenting on how Turk was getting whipped by scrub offensive linemen that a second round pick should be able to handle?

Hydrae
01-01-2008, 07:15 PM
I think about the twin turds the same way I think about Croyle. It's really difficult to know if they're going to pan out or not at this point, Mr. 'Hamas' Jenkins.

The unfortunate fact is that our coaching staff is a gaggle of knuckleheads trying to organize a goat f*ck. All we really know is that it's not suitable for small children, pregnant women, or anybody with a pacemaker or a stent.

As for affecting this year's draft, you may be right. Either way, it's going to be interesting to see what our brain trust does. If the reports are true that we're not planning to be very active in FA, they better draft their asses off.

FAX

Ah, the true reason why Stent Green was traded in the offseason. It was for his health! ROFL

Skip Towne
01-01-2008, 07:29 PM
I think about the twin turds the same way I think about Croyle. It's really difficult to know if they're going to pan out or not at this point, Mr. 'Hamas' Jenkins.

The unfortunate fact is that our coaching staff is a gaggle of knuckleheads trying to organize a goat f*ck. All we really know is that it's not suitable for small children, pregnant women, or anybody with a pacemaker or a stent.

As for affecting this year's draft, you may be right. Either way, it's going to be interesting to see what our brain trust does. If the reports are true that we're not planning to be very active in FA, they better draft their asses off.

FAX
That might be fun. I'd like to see a guy who has had his ass drafted off.

Brock
01-01-2008, 07:30 PM
I doubt McBride would keep them from drafting the best DT on the board. There are only a couple of positions where the existing player is going to have any effect on it whatsoever, IMO. Sorry, Croyle backers, QB isn't one of them.

OnTheWarpath58
01-01-2008, 07:36 PM
I doubt McBride would keep them from drafting the best DT on the board. There are only a couple of positions where the existing player is going to have any effect on it whatsoever, IMO. Sorry, Croyle backers, QB isn't one of them.

I can only think of one, RB.

Other than that, we need help EVERYWHERE.

Ah, nevermind. Two positions.

Punter and RB.

Rain Man
01-01-2008, 08:01 PM
Let's look at Carl's second-round picks, and the next five picks following his picks. We'll ignore 2006 and 2007 since the jury is still out on McBride and Pollard.

When we evaluate, I recognize that there are times when we may simply not need a player at a position that was drafted. Let's note that. Also, I don't expect Carl to ALWAYS pick the best player of the six, because there's more uncertainty in drafting than that would make possible. However, I would expect him to, on average, get one of the two or three best who are available.

Scoring: If Carl got the best of the 6, he gets 6 points. If he got the worst, he gets 1 point. On average, I want to see him get 4.5 if he's decent at this.

2005 - No pick

2004 - We took Siavii with our first pick. The next five were:

5 (37) DET Teddy Lehman LB Oklahoma
6 (38) PIT Ricardo Colclough DB Tusculum
7 (39) JAC Daryl Smith LB Georgia Tech
8 (40) TEN Ben Troupe TE Florida
9 (41) DEN Tatum Bell RB Oklahoma State

In other words, we got the worst pick of the prospects, even though I'm not sure how all of these guys worked out.. Carl's score: 1 out of 6, and it would be lower if possible.

We had another second-round pick in 2004, which we used on Kris Wilson. The next five selections were:

30 (62) CAR Keary Colbert WR USC
31 (63) NWE Marquise Hill DE Louisiana State
Round 3
Rd (OV) Team Name Pos College
1 (64) ARI Darnell Dockett DE Florida State
2 (65) SDG Nate Kaeding K Iowa
3 (66) SDG Nick Hardwick C Purdue

Hill is an asterisk since he died, and hasn't Colbert been a bust? But I would've liked the other three picks better. I give Carl 3 out of 6, maybe 4 if I'm in a good mood. I'm not, since we were 4-12.

2003

We took Kawika Mitchell. The next five picks were:

16 (48) BUF Chris Kelsay DE Nebraska
17 (49) MIA Eddie Moore LB Tennessee
18 (50) CAR Bruce Nelson C Iowa
19 (51) DEN Terry Pierce LB Kansas State
20 (52) CLE Chaun Thompson LB West Texas A&M

Pretty much a bunch of busts other than Kelsay. I grudgingly give Carl's bust a 5 out of 6. Correct me if I'm wrong.

2002 - We drafted Eddie Freeman. The next five picks were:

12 (44) NOR LeCharles Bentley C Ohio State
13 (45) TEN Tank Williams DB Stanford
14 (46) NYG Tim Carter WR Auburn
15 (47) CLE Andre Davis WR Virginia Tech
16 (48) SDG Reche Caldwell WR Florida

Bentley would be nice to have. Is he back from his injury last year? Couple of mediocre wide receivers, but still better than Freeman. I think Williams got on the field, and Carter returned some kicks. I give Carl's bust a 1 out of 6, though acknowledging that a couple of these others were almost as bad.

2000 - We took Bartee. The next five were:

24 (55) MIN Fred Robbins DT Wake Forest
25 (56) MIN Michael Boireau DE Miami (FL)
26 (57) CAR Deon Grant DB Tennessee
27 (58) BUF Travares Tillman DB Georgia Tech
28 (59) IND Marcus Washington DE Auburn

I have no idea how productive these guys were. I suspect that Bartee didn't beat any of them in career interceptions, though. I think the last three played a bit, and maybe Robbins. Bartee did have an eight-year career, if you can call it that. It's a tough call, but I'll give Carl a 3 out of 6. Shockingly, it could be as high as 5 out of 6.

1999 - We took Mike Cloud. The next five were:

24 (55) DAL Solomon Page T West Virginia
25 (56) JAC Larry Smith DT Florida State
26 (57) NYJ Randy Thomas G Mississippi State
27 (58) DEN Montae Reagor LB Texas Tech
28 (59) PIT Scott Shields DB Weber State

Thomas is the obvious winner. Reagor had a couple of good years, maybe Page. I'd give Carl a 4 out of 6.

1998 - No pick

1997 - We took Kevin Lockett. The next five picks were:

18 (48) IND Adam Meadows T Georgia
19 (49) MIN Torrian Gray DB Virginia Tech
20 (50) JAC Mike Logan DB West Virginia
21 (51) WAS Greg Jones LB Colorado
22 (52) BUF Marcellus Wiley DE Columbia

Would've loved to have had Meadows or Wiley instead of Lockett. However, I have no idea who Gray and Logan are, and Lockett at least played. I would give Carl a 4 out of 6.

1996 - We took Reggie Tongue. The next five picks were:

29 (59) STL Ernie Conwell TE Washington
30 (60) JAC Michael Cheever C Georgia Tech
31 (61) PHI Brian Dawkins DB Clemson
Round 3
Rd (OV) Team Name Pos College
1 (62) NYJ Ray Mickens DB Texas A&M
2 (63) JAC Aaron Beasley DB West Virginia

Obviously, Dawkins was the pick here. Beasley and Conwell had reasonable careers, but I would give Carl a 5 out of 6.

1994 - We took Donnell Bennett. The next five picks were:

30 (59) NYG Jason Sehorn DB USC
31 (60) HOO Jeremy Nunley DE Alabama
32 (61) BUF Lonnie Johnson TE Florida State
33 (62) SFO Tyrone Drakeford DB Virginia Tech
34 (63) SDG Vaughn Parker G UCLA

Sehorn, Johnson, and Parker were all productive, and I think Drakeford was, too. Bennett was a starter for a while, though. I would give Carl a 4 out of 6, spotting Sehorn and Johnson.

1993 - No pick

1992 - We took Matt Blundin. The next five picks were:

13 (41) NYG Phillippi Sparks DB Arizona State
14 (42) NYJ Kurt Barber LB USC
15 (43) MIA Eddie Blake DT Auburn
16 (44) TAM Courtney Hawkins WR Michigan State
17 (45) SFO Amp Lee RB Florida State

Sparks, Lee, and Hawkins were all productive. I have no idea about Blake and Barber. I'll give Carl a 2 out of 6 and split the difference. Could easily be a 1.


1991 - We took Joe Valerio, the best receiving tackle in league history. The next five picks were:

24 (51) SEA Doug Thomas WR Clemson
25 (52) CIN Lamar Rogers DE Auburn
26 (53) SFO John Johnson LB Clemson
27 (54) BUF Phil Hansen DE North Dakota State
28 (55) NYG Kanavis McGhee LB Colorado

Hansen would've been a good pick, as well as McGhee. Don't know about the others. I'll be generous and give Carl a 4 out of 6.

1990 - We took Tim Grunhard. The next five picks were:

16 (41) HOO Jeff Alm DT Notre Dame
17 (42) BUF Carwell Gardner RB Louisville
18 (43) PIT Kenny Davidson DE Louisiana State
19 (44) NOR Vince Buck DB Central State (OH)
20 (45) CLE Leroy Hoard RB Michigan

Hoard and Gardner were good, but Carl scores a 6 here.

1989 - We took Mike Elkins. The next five picks were:

5 (33) TAM Danny Peebles WR North Carolina State
6 (34) PIT Carnell Lake DB UCLA
7 (35) CIN Eric Ball RB UCLA
8 (36) CHI John Roper LB Texas A&M
9 (37) SDG Courtney Hall C Rice

Wow. Lake and Hall would've ruled. I think Ball had a little playing time, and not sure about Peebles and Roper. I'll be generous and give Carl a 2 out of 6.

So our scoring for Carl is:

2004 - 1
2004 - 3
2003 - 5
2002 - 1
2000 - 3
1999 - 4
1997 - 4
1996 - 5
1994 - 4
1992 - 2
1991 - 4
1990 - 6
1989 - 2

Average: 44 points out of a possible 78, or an average of 3.4. This means that of the six top players, Carl consistently can be counted on to select the 3rd or 4th best of the 6. While I can't unilaterally condemn this without comparing it to other GMs, I think I would hope that a GM would consistently get the 2nd or 3rd best.

The other interesting issue is his performance in the Marty era vs. the post-Marty era. In the Marty era, his average score was 3.8. In the post-Marty era, his average has been 2.8.

KCwolf
01-01-2008, 08:08 PM
That is some pretty damn good stats....well done fellow Chiefs fan.
Rep.....if I knew what that meant......

Stinger
01-01-2008, 08:27 PM
The McBride pick was a waste of a prime draft spot

The McBride pick cost us a chance at Ryan Kalil



As posted in another thread....

I believe Mario Williams with Houston had the same things said about him last year and Reggie Bush was the clear winner in that draft. Just curious where those people are now?

Rookies in a brand new defensive schemes seem to take a year or two to get up to speed. Look at DJ... he has consitantly gotten better after his rookie year. What more could you ask?

And well it not like don't have time to wait see ... we are Chiefs fans after all what is a couple more years. :D

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2008, 08:32 PM
I thought you were rallying against the idea of drafting for need. Now we should have done that instead of taking Turk?

Regardless, I really can't imagine Herm sitting there on draft day going "Well, this DT is the highest rated player on our board and one of the 4-5 best players in this draft. But, f*ck 'im, we've got TURK MCBRIDE!"

Kalil and Satele were the BPsA when we were picking, it was a perfect storm and we f*cked it up.

KCFalcon59
01-01-2008, 08:45 PM
It's the chiefs goddamned philosophy to reach after their 1st pick. Heck they have even reached a few times on their 1st pick instead of taking the BAA. They think they are so smart and can find the diamonds in the rough but rarely ever get one.

FAX
01-01-2008, 08:46 PM
Interestingly enough, without looking at names, and including IR I compared Denver and KC number of draft picks on the team...

16 of 64 Denver 25%
21 of 71 KC 29.5%

morphius
looked at a bunch of other teams, but they didn't have it easily available.

Current contributors, Mr. morphius peep mod?

Some time ago, I reviewed all Carl's picks since DT (there were about 120 or so) and counted all the live bodies that one could reasonably term an "impact" player. I think I got to about 10 or so before I started reaching. There are probably more, but someone else did a similar thing, if I remember correctly, and came up with a similar result.

Nevertheless, whatever the number, our draft history in terms of solid guys who contribute to Chiefs wins over time and/or are successful in the NFL is not particularly stellar under Carl.

FAX

FAX
01-01-2008, 08:53 PM
I don't know about McBride yet, but I think it is true that our second-round drafts inevitably stink. I think the reason is that Carl always selects someone at this pick with "good measurables" who wasn't on the traditional draft board, and it pretty much never works out. After 19 years, he's still never figured out that production on the field is what counts.

19 years of Carl's drafts, and what do these guys have in common, besides general suckage. Grunhard and Tongue are the only two who have been decent players for us.

2007 - Turk McBride
2006 - Bernard Pollard
2005 - (Trade for Surtain)
2004 - Junior Siavii/Kris Wilson
2003 - Kawika Mitchell
2002 - Eddie Freeman
2001 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
2000 - William Bartee
1999 - Mike Cloud
1998 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
1997 - Kevin Lockett
1996 - Reggie Tongue
1995 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
1994 - Donnell Bennett
1993 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
1992 - Darren Mickell
1991 - Joe Valerio
1990 - Tim Grunhard
1989 - Mike Elkins

It's posts like these that make me want to put on a blindfold, saddle up a giant, poisonous toad, and ride that bastard in the dead of night straight into icy rapids.

FAX