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KCJohnny
01-01-2008, 09:29 PM
Planeteers:
Below is a bulletized version of the Chiefs O history since 2000. Please wikipedia this recap and correct where necessary.

I think what happened is this:

1. Elvis Grbac piloted a modified Left Coast Offense to the #8 offense in the NFL in 2000 with virtually no rushing attack.

2. DV had Green in mind all along, all the while giving lip service to Grbac's abilities. Grbac read writing on wall and bailed. DV came in preaching Ramifization/Martzyball and tried forcing a round peg into a square hole in 2001. Martzyball is based on a pretty faithful version of the Air-Coryell classical pass-to-set-up-the-run downfield vertical game.

3. DV/AS adjusted the Chiefs 2002 O to work with the strengths Martzyball ignores (TE/FB/power sweeps) and so implemented a modified Coryell system that featured Priest Holmes and Tony Gonzalez.

4. Solari inherited the modified Coryell O and was told to dumb it down to feature LJ - something the system was not designed to do (establish a north/south runner between the tackles).

5. When Croyle took over, the play book was truncated even further to eradicate the 7-step drops and modify the shotgun formation plays to quick-hit underneath receivers.

In conclusion, the system Croyle was running is a limited version of a dumbed down version of the Coryell O.

I see a new offensive coordinator coming in with a new system and I think that more than any other single factor will determine the situation at QB.

KCJohnny
01-01-2008, 10:42 PM
C'mon, peeps, with Solari being canned, this issue matters. What is your take?

Phobia
01-01-2008, 10:47 PM
What is your take?
Nobody wants to be seen in a KCJ thread right before it crashes and burns.

jjjayb
01-01-2008, 10:58 PM
C'mon, peeps, with Solari being canned, this issue matters. What is your take?

It doesn't matter what offensive coordinator we get in here as long as Herm is pulling their strings. It'll be same crap next year. Offense going out there to not make mistakes and play for the punt so the defense can win the game. No matter how much Herm changes OC's, his offenses still always look the same. I think I'm going to go throw up now.

Douche Baggins
01-01-2008, 10:59 PM
Another pathetic KCJ thread. JESUS CHRIST!

FAX
01-01-2008, 11:02 PM
C'mon, peeps, with Solari being canned, this issue matters. What is your take?

My take is this. With Paul Hackett at the helm, we don't need a QB. We can direct snap the ball to the fullback and save oodles of cap money.

FAX

SLAG
01-01-2008, 11:04 PM
My take is this. With Paul Hackett at the helm, we don't need a QB. We can direct snap the ball to the fullback and save oodles of cap money.

FAX


Instead of R2-P2 It will Be R3-P1

Douche Baggins
01-01-2008, 11:04 PM
My take is this. With Paul Hackett at the helm, we don't need a QB. We can direct snap the ball to the fullback and save oodles of cap money.

FAX

You need to review your Chiefs history, FAX. Paul Hackett was the devilish OC who blew the 1995 playoff game by putting the offense in Steve Bono's hands when Marcus was ripping off 10-yard runs every other play.

FAX
01-01-2008, 11:12 PM
You need to review your Chiefs history, FAX. Paul Hackett was the devilish OC who blew the 1995 playoff game by putting the offense in Steve Bono's hands when Marcus was ripping off 10-yard runs every other play.

I had that part of my brain surgically removed, peep.

FAX

dirk digler
01-01-2008, 11:19 PM
You need to review your Chiefs history, FAX. Paul Hackett was the devilish OC who blew the 1995 playoff game by putting the offense in Steve Bono's hands when Marcus was ripping off 10-yard runs every other play.

Yep. **** Paul Hackett if he shows up here in KC as the OC Herm and him might not make it to the draft

KCJohnny
01-01-2008, 11:20 PM
Instead of R2-P2 It will Be R3-P1

Hackett actually presided over the (then) record setting 1994 Chiefs O that had Montana (38) and Marcus Allen (36) featured. The WRs were JJ Birden and Willie Davis. The TE was Jonathan Hayes. Kimble Anders was just beginning his storied career in KC. The moral of the story is, Hackett did squeeze the max from a poorly assembled offense.

I don't want Hackett here, but with a dominant defense, Hackett is an upgrade over Solari, and the Left Coast Offense's accent on short throws will help Brodie more than the Coryell down-the-seams vertical offense.

KCJohnny
01-01-2008, 11:23 PM
Also, I noticed no one wants to take on the thread topic...

...please weigh in.

Discuss Thrower
01-01-2008, 11:29 PM
Everyone is plotting the demise of all those who support trading down.

You will be dealt with shortly.

cdcox
01-01-2008, 11:31 PM
1. Elvis Grbac piloted a modified Left Coast Offense to the #8 offense in the NFL in 2000 with virtually no rushing attack.


There wasn't much left-coast in that offense. It was more single back with play action and downfield passing.



2. DV had Green in mind all along, all the while giving lip service to Grbac's abilities. Grbac read writing on wall and bailed. DV came in preaching Ramifization/Martzyball and tried forcing a round peg into a square hole in 2001. Martzyball is based on a pretty faithful version of the Air-Coryell classical pass-to-set-up-the-run downfield vertical game.



I think you're reading too much into the Green situation. Carl and DV looked like they were totally surprised when Grbac jumped ship.


3. DV/AS adjusted the Chiefs 2002 O to work with the strengths Martzyball ignores (TE/FB/power sweeps) and so implemented a modified Coryell system that featured Priest Holmes and Tony Gonzalez.


I think Willie Roaf, new recievers and another year in the system had more to do with the success than any adjustments. TG was never featured in the DV/AS attack, except in 2004. I'd go so far as to say that they under utilized him.

3a. The DV/AS attack underwent a small but important change after the 2003 season. We decreased PH involvement in the passing game.



4. Solari inherited the modified Coryell O and was told to dumb it down to feature LJ - something the system was not designed to do (establish a north/south runner between the tackles).

5. When Croyle took over, the play book was truncated even further to eradicate the 7-step drops and modify the shotgun formation plays to quick-hit underneath receivers.

In conclusion, the system Croyle was running is a limited version of a dumbed down version of the Coryell O.



We've never ran the same offense under Herm that we ran under DV/AS. If you want to compare the two, think of two Ford Mustangs. One with a 429 engine and one with a 200. The two cars may look the same, but only cosmetically. Herm wanted a more fuel efficient engine.

KCJohnny
01-01-2008, 11:40 PM
There wasn't much left-coast in that offense. It was more single back with play action and downfield passing.




I think you're reading too much into the Green situation. Carl and DV looked like they were totally surprised when Grbac jumped ship.



I think Willie Roaf, new recievers and another year in the system had more to do with the success than any adjustments. TG was never featured in the DV/AS attack, except in 2004. I'd go so far as to say that they under utilized him.

3a. The DV/AS attack underwent a small but important change after the 2003 season. We decreased PH involvement in the passing game.




We've never ran the same offense under Herm that we ran under DV/AS. If you want to compare the two, think of two Ford Mustangs. One with a 429 engine and one with a 200. The two cars may look the same, but only cosmetically. Herm wanted a more fuel efficient engine.

Thanks for actually taking on the subject matter, cdcox. Rep to you for that.

The 2000 Chiefs were running a variation of the LCO but Grbac's strength was the deep ball (to Cunningham's credit) and the 2000 Chiefs were in the top 5 in passing yards, least sacks, and quick-strike scoring. The point being, Vermiel unnecessarily rebuilt a top 5 passing attack in the image of Trent Green. We will just disagree on the Grbac writing-on-the-wall situation. Vermiel NEVER wanted Grbac and was pimping Green all along.

Disagree about point #2. DV was forcing Martzyball on the 2001 Chiefs and finally realized his 3 best players were his FB, his TE and his OLT.

The point is, Solari was running a much-diminished version of Saunders' Flying Circus. Croyle inherited that pathetic, dumbed down system.

Douche Baggins
01-01-2008, 11:42 PM
The point being, Vermiel unnecessarily rebuilt a top 5 passing attack in the image of Trent Green.

Yep. If Gunther had coached 7 years instead of 2 we probably would have won at least one Super Bowl.

KCJohnny
01-01-2008, 11:51 PM
Yep. If Gunther had coached 7 years instead of 2 we probably would have won at least one Super Bowl.

Great job refuting why retooling KC's #5 passing attack was task #1 under the Vermiel regime.

Cunningham's 2 years finished at .500. DV's first 2 years were 14-18. Get a clue, OK?

Douche Baggins
01-01-2008, 11:53 PM
Great job refuting why retooling KC's #5 passing attack was task #1 under the Vermiel regime.

Cunningham's 2 years finished at .500. DV's first 2 years were 14-18. Get a clue, OK?

What clue? Gunther wasn't head coach material and neither was Vermeil. They both sucked balls. You have no relevant point whatsoever.

By the way, Gunther still sucks balls. I gave him a D.

cdcox
01-01-2008, 11:56 PM
point being, Vermiel unnecessarily rebuilt a top 5 passing attack in the image of Trent Green.

Who were the key elements of that passing attack?

1. Grbac. I was one of the strongest Grbackers until the day he left town. I even felt vindicated for backing him in 2000. Huge mistake on my part because Grbac lacked the most crucial ingredient for being a QB: heart. That is why he left KC (boo hoo some of the fans didn't like him) and why he got out of football all together a year later, despite still having the physical tools and opportunities to succeed.

2. Gonzo - no problems.

3. Derrick Alexander - 2000 was his high water mark. He had no competition in 2001 and basically disappeared.

4. Sly Mo - wrecked by injury

I don't see that as a needless rebuild. That passing attack in 2000 was unsustainable.

Deberg_1990
01-02-2008, 02:11 AM
Great job refuting why retooling KC's #5 passing attack was task #1 under the Vermiel regime.



Whats your point???

Why are you bringing stuff up from 7 or 8 years ago that has zero relevence on todays Chiefs??

Every coach who comes in is going to change things up and mold the team in his image. Thats just a fact.

Douche Baggins
01-02-2008, 02:42 AM
Whats your point???

Why are you bringing stuff up from 7 or 8 years ago that has zero relevence on todays Chiefs??


He loves Gunther and thinks he can do no wrong.

Warrior5
01-02-2008, 05:34 AM
Another pathetic KCJ thread. JESUS CHRIST!

In what way is this thread pathetic? If you disagree with his historical analysis, then explain why.

With Croyle being a HUGE ? and the Chiefs developing an off-season acquisition strategy, this is a very relevant thread.

DenverChief
01-02-2008, 05:44 AM
Who were the key elements of that passing attack?

1. Grbac. I was one of the strongest Grbackers until the day he left town. I even felt vindicated for backing him in 2000. Huge mistake on my part because Grbac lacked the most crucial ingredient for being a QB: heart. That is why he left KC (boo hoo some of the fans didn't like him) and why he got out of football all together a year later, despite still having the physical tools and opportunities to succeed.

2. Gonzo - no problems.

3. Derrick Alexander - 2000 was his high water mark. He had no competition in 2001 and basically disappeared.

4. Sly Mo - wrecked by injury

I don't see that as a needless rebuild. That passing attack in 2000 was unsustainable.

B-I-N-G-O

was his name-o

DenverChief
01-02-2008, 05:49 AM
Who were the key elements of that passing attack?

1. Grbac. I was one of the strongest Grbackers until the day he left town. I even felt vindicated for backing him in 2000. Huge mistake on my part because Grbac lacked the most crucial ingredient for being a QB: heart. That is why he left KC (boo hoo some of the fans didn't like him) and why he got out of football all together a year later, despite still having the physical tools and opportunities to succeed.

2. Gonzo - no problems.

3. Derrick Alexander - 2000 was his high water mark. He had no competition in 2001 and basically disappeared.

4. Sly Mo - wrecked by injury

I don't see that as a needless rebuild. That passing attack in 2000 was unsustainable.


NTM

Larry Parker
Kevin Lockett

KCChiefsFan88
01-02-2008, 08:08 AM
What clue? Gunther wasn't head coach material and neither was Vermeil. They both sucked balls. You have no relevant point whatsoever.

Vermeil took Philly to a Super Bowl, won a Super Bowl with the Lambs, built the most prolific offense in Chiefs' franchise history... but "isn't head coaching material".

KCChiefsFan88
01-02-2008, 08:11 AM
2. DV had Green in mind all along, all the while giving lip service to Grbac's abilities. Grbac read writing on wall and bailed. DV came in preaching Ramifization/Martzyball and tried forcing a round peg into a square hole in 2001. Martzyball is based on a pretty faithful version of the Air-Coryell classical pass-to-set-up-the-run downfield vertical game.


Grbac wanted out of KC. He refused to renegotiate the monster cap # his contract would have had against the Chiefs salary cap for the upcoming 2001 season (remember the Chiefs were nearly $30 million over the salary cap that offseason) and essentially forced the Chiefs to release him.

KCJohnny
01-02-2008, 11:44 AM
Whats your point???

Why are you bringing stuff up from 7 or 8 years ago that has zero relevence on todays Chiefs??

Every coach who comes in is going to change things up and mold the team in his image. Thats just a fact.

Because its important to understand how the Chiefs' offense arrived where it is. Please read the thread topic and trace the line of activity that began with Vermiel installing a Martzified version of Air Coryell, and the many adaptations, modifications and truncations that resulted in Solari being thrown under the bus.

The bottom line is, a new OC with a new system will be a major determinant of the course of action this team takes with regard to QB.

ChiefsFootball
01-02-2008, 02:34 PM
Because its important to understand how the Chiefs' offense arrived where it is. Please read the thread topic and trace the line of activity that began with Vermiel installing a Martzified version of Air Coryell, and the many adaptations, modifications and truncations that resulted in Solari being thrown under the bus.

The bottom line is, a new OC with a new system will be a major determinant of the course of action this team takes with regard to QB.


Solari thrown under the bus? The guy is horrible. His play calling has Division III predictability written all over it. When I am watching a game, and I know what play is gonna be called next, we have a serious problem. You can use your discrediting words like "Martzified" all you want, but you can never discount the fact that the Chiefs' offense during the Vermeil era was ABSOLUTELY dynamic in every way, and was only limited by the defense and their inability to get the ball back for the offense to score more. That offense, with a point suppressant Defense, would have smashed NFL scoring records to the point where the Patriots of 2007 wouldn't have sniffed it. Someone already stated that even though supposedly in '07 we ran the Vermeil offense, it was akin to having two mustangs with completely different engines. Well, to take it further, it was like having two mustangs, but with one missing its engine entirely *cough* 2007 *cough*. NEXT...

KCJohnny
01-02-2008, 06:25 PM
Solari thrown under the bus? The guy is horrible. His play calling has Division III predictability written all over it. When I am watching a game, and I know what play is gonna be called next, we have a serious problem. You can use your discrediting words like "Martzified" all you want, but you can never discount the fact that the Chiefs' offense during the Vermeil era was ABSOLUTELY dynamic in every way, and was only limited by the defense and their inability to get the ball back for the offense to score more. That offense, with a point suppressant Defense, would have smashed NFL scoring records to the point where the Patriots of 2007 wouldn't have sniffed it. Someone already stated that even though supposedly in '07 we ran the Vermeil offense, it was akin to having two mustangs with completely different engines. Well, to take it further, it was like having two mustangs, but with one missing its engine entirely *cough* 2007 *cough*. NEXT...
Ah yes, the good old days when the grass was greener, the girls prettier, and we never failed to score 20 points.

Games 2002-2005 KC scored 20 points or less:

2002 5 games
2003 4 games
2004 5 games
2005 5 games

Solari is at least partly a victim of a scheme in flux from 2001-2007. Each modification made the playbook smaller, easier, more predictable and less flexible. R2P2 was never meant to be run in the Air Coryell O. The 2002-05 Chiefs rushing attack was dominant for one reason: the pass attack was a credible threat. That O featured some play-action, but its strength was an OL that could hold its protection while Green could drop back 7 steps, make his progressions, step up in the pocket and hit the intermediate/deep routes pretty consistently. He had 3 powerful supports that Solari did not: Pro Bowl Guard Shields, Pro Bowl OLT Roaf, and Pro Bowl FB Tony Richardson.

Solari inherited a playbook that had been contorted to feature inside rushing to set up the pass out of the same system. Then he was told to dump all 7-step drops (or so it would seem from the play calling). Solari is not a SB OC but lets be fair; he was given an aging offense and a mangled playbook trying to be something it could not.

FTR: Martzification was not intended to be a pejorative term. What he accomplished in 1999-2000 was remarkable. But it was a mistake to try and import it to the 2001 Chiefs and subsequent modifications to that system resulted in the record setting Chiefs O of 2002-2005.

kc1977
01-02-2008, 07:22 PM
Vermeil took Philly to a Super Bowl, won a Super Bowl with the Lambs, built the most prolific offense in Chiefs' franchise history... but "isn't head coaching material".

DV is so overated it is unbelievable.

I'll give him all the credit in the world for Philly. I wasn't old enough back then to pay any attention, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there.

In St. Louis, DV lucked out so unbelievably that he threw his staff under the bus and was forced to let go of Tony Banks and take on Mike Martz and have the fortune of Trent Green getting hurt so it would open the door to the cinderella Kurt Warner story.

After Martz received the majority of the credit in St. Louis, DV's ego got the best of him and he hoodwinked his old buddy Carl into hiring him for the sole purpose of proving that he could build an offense as great as Martz did, to prove DV was, in fact, the genius behind the Rams.

Well, he succeeded in building that offense at the expense of the defense, and one playoff loss in 5 years is all that Vickie D has to show for it.

Carl should be fired immediately for the DV debacle, not to mention the Herman debacle. Herm is the only coach in this league who would start Brodie Croyle at QB, not many would probably have him second string.

Extra Point
01-02-2008, 07:25 PM
In other news, if your D sucks, you ain't gonna win.

KCJohnny
01-02-2008, 07:55 PM
DV is so overated it is unbelievable.

I'll give him all the credit in the world for Philly. I wasn't old enough back then to pay any attention, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there.

In St. Louis, DV lucked out so unbelievably that he threw his staff under the bus and was forced to let go of Tony Banks and take on Mike Martz and have the fortune of Trent Green getting hurt so it would open the door to the cinderella Kurt Warner story.

After Martz received the majority of the credit in St. Louis, DV's ego got the best of him and he hoodwinked his old buddy Carl into hiring him for the sole purpose of proving that he could build an offense as great as Martz did, to prove DV was, in fact, the genius behind the Rams.

Well, he succeeded in building that offense at the expense of the defense, and one playoff loss in 5 years is all that Vickie D has to show for it.

Carl should be fired immediately for the DV debacle, not to mention the Herman debacle. Herm is the only coach in this league who would start Brodie Croyle at QB, not many would probably have him second string.

Can't argue with most of that. I believe Vermiel probably did believe the Rams lightning-in-a-bottle GSoT was the deliberate creation of Vermiel. Indeed, some of it was. But a lot was Martz, and a lot was fate.

The point of this thread is that DV brought AS and the Air Coryell O in here at a time KC's passing attack was already #5 in the league. Then that O began to be adapted to the personnel strengths of the Chiefs. Then Solari took that adaptation and tried to feature rushing between the tackles with it - something that system was never designed to do. Then all the deep drops were ripped out of the playbook. So at the end of 2007 Solari was trying to run a version of the Coryell offense that neither Coryell nor Martz would ever recognize.

KCChiefsFan88
01-02-2008, 09:15 PM
People who continue to trash Vermeil are funny... especially as Herm does everything in his power to destroy the franchise.

When Vermeil retired this was a 10-6 team with the #1 offense in the league. The team is in its current mess because of Dictator Carl and Herm's incompetence.

The people who want to minimize Vermeil and say he was "lucky" to win a Super Bowl are the same people who bend over backwards in their attempts to portray career sub.-500 Herm as a good coach.

kc1977
01-03-2008, 06:28 AM
People who continue to trash Vermeil are funny... especially as Herm does everything in his power to destroy the franchise.

When Vermeil retired this was a 10-6 team with the #1 offense in the league. The team is in its current mess because of Dictator Carl and Herm's incompetence.

The people who want to minimize Vermeil and say he was "lucky" to win a Super Bowl are the same people who bend over backwards in their attempts to portray career sub.-500 Herm as a good coach.

Uh, when I was saying that Herm is the only coach in the league who would have Brodie Croyle as his starting QB, I didn't mean that in a good way. Herman is a bigger idiot than Vermeil if he thinks that Brodie will ever make it in this league.

About your Vermeil worship, just remember that in only one year, Herm equaled the success of Vermeil's 5 years. One playoff loss.

Remember that - Herman could go 3 more years of 4-12 football and still be as successfull here as Vermeil was.

Dartgod
01-03-2008, 06:44 AM
C'mon, peeps, with Solari being canned, this issue matters. What is your take?
I'm waiting to see what the PPL is before I offer my take.

OctoberFart
01-03-2008, 10:08 AM
What system does run, run, pass, punt fall under? Sperm Edwards germ warfare?

Chris Meck
01-03-2008, 11:31 AM
Actually, Coryell's Charger offense featured a bruiser in the backfield by the name of Chuck Muncie. Kind of a slower Larry Johnson.

I think maybe people are misinterpreting the relation of an offensive scheme versus utilizing available personnell. For instance:

There is very little scheme difference between the '81 Chargers (that lost that OT play-off game in Miami) and the '92 Cowboys (that beat the Bills in the SB). The terminology is the same, play design similar, philosophy the same, etc. The main difference would be utilizing available personnell. The Chargers had 3 great WRs and a pretty revolutionary TE. so they went 3 wide, one back a lot. The Cowboys, by comparison, had a great running back, good TE, and ONE great WR. So they lined up primarily in the basic pro-set (two WR, one TE, RB, FB).

The Cowboys also led the league year in, year out in rushing (or very nearly led the league).

Point being, its just different wrinkles of the same cloth. The main difference is personnell and utilization of that personnell. Now, the WCO is a different philosophy in that it's about short, quick passes and utilizing the entire field horizontally. (swing passes to the backs outside the hashes, slants to the WR's inside, etc.).

I think Brodie is best suited to a downfield approach.

just my .02

KCJohnny
01-03-2008, 11:39 AM
Actually, Coryell's Charger offense featured a bruiser in the backfield by the name of Chuck Muncie. Kind of a slower Larry Johnson.

I think maybe people are misinterpreting the relation of an offensive scheme versus utilizing available personnell. For instance:

There is very little scheme difference between the '81 Chargers (that lost that OT play-off game in Miami) and the '92 Cowboys (that beat the Bills in the SB). The terminology is the same, play design similar, philosophy the same, etc. The main difference would be utilizing available personnell. The Chargers had 3 great WRs and a pretty revolutionary TE. so they went 3 wide, one back a lot. The Cowboys, by comparison, had a great running back, good TE, and ONE great WR. So they lined up primarily in the basic pro-set (two WR, one TE, RB, FB).

The Cowboys also led the league year in, year out in rushing (or very nearly led the league).

Point being, its just different wrinkles of the same cloth. The main difference is personnell and utilization of that personnell. Now, the WCO is a different philosophy in that it's about short, quick passes and utilizing the entire field horizontally. (swing passes to the backs outside the hashes, slants to the WR's inside, etc.).

I think Brodie is best suited to a downfield approach.

just my .02

C-Meck:
Good to see you on the board again. Happy New Year.

I agree with you (which is why I started this topic); Brodie is probably better at the vertical game as opposed to all those underneath receivers moving in the pattern. His forte is definitely not hitting receivers in stride as they cross over the middle as the WCO features. I think with the right OL and some more time, he can become a strong pocket passer with a 7-step drop, something we couldn't do much of this year because of protection vulnerabilities.

BTW, Chuck Muncie may have been slower than LJ, but he was an excellent receiver and kept Fouts' jersey clean.

KCJohnny
01-04-2008, 10:53 PM
DV is so overated it is unbelievable.

I'll give him all the credit in the world for Philly. I wasn't old enough back then to pay any attention, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there.

In St. Louis, DV lucked out so unbelievably that he threw his staff under the bus and was forced to let go of Tony Banks and take on Mike Martz and have the fortune of Trent Green getting hurt so it would open the door to the cinderella Kurt Warner story.

After Martz received the majority of the credit in St. Louis, DV's ego got the best of him and he hoodwinked his old buddy Carl into hiring him for the sole purpose of proving that he could build an offense as great as Martz did, to prove DV was, in fact, the genius behind the Rams.

Well, he succeeded in building that offense at the expense of the defense, and one playoff loss in 5 years is all that Vickie D has to show for it.

Carl should be fired immediately for the DV debacle, not to mention the Herman debacle. Herm is the only coach in this league who would start Brodie Croyle at QB, not many would probably have him second string.

My main ax to grind with DV is that he tried to remake the Chiefs in the image of the Rams. It was exciting (and frustrating) to watch and root for DV's Chiefs, but in the end, no more satifying than Herm's Chiefs. I think Herm has a real chance to hit a homerun with his choice of OC.

keg in kc
01-04-2008, 10:59 PM
I think Herm has a real chance to hit a homerun with his choice of OC.I'll parrot here what I said in another thread tonight: it's going to be a really tall order. It's not just about hiring a coordinator, it's about adding an enormous amount of talent to the roster, and not just on offense. Because if the offense is fixed, but at the expense of the remaining glaring problems on defense and special teams, the end result will still be Herm fired...

Truth be told, I don't believe Herm has enough time to get it done. In retrospect, I would say we wasted 2006 and 2007 trying to hang onto the glory of 2003-2005, instead of doing what we're doing now, and I think in the end, that'll be the reason he won't get it built before he's gone. Suppose we gut everything in '06, install a new system then, where would we be now?

In the end, that's a moot point, we are where we are, and we're no better a team heading into 2008 than we were heading into 2006 (and most would argue we're worse). The clock is running, and half his contract has been used up already.

cdcox
01-04-2008, 11:06 PM
and half his contract has been used up already.

Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

Nam regnat nunc omnipotens Deus.
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

Ipsius terra est, terra est et Christi eius, et Christi eius, qui regnat nunc et omne per aevum.

Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

Regum rex, deorum Deus! qui regnat nunc et omne per aevum.

Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

KCJohnny
01-04-2008, 11:09 PM
I'll parrot here what I said in another thread tonight: it's going to be a really tall order. It's not just about hiring a coordinator, it's about adding an enormous amount of talent to the roster, and not just on offense. Because if the offense is fixed, but at the expense of the remaining glaring problems on defense and special teams, the end result will still be Herm fired...

Truth be told, I don't believe Herm has enough time to get it done. In retrospect, I would say we wasted 2006 and 2007 trying to hang onto the glory of 2003-2005, instead of doing what we're doing now, and I think in the end, that'll be the reason he won't get it built before he's gone. Suppose we gut everything in '06, install a new system then, where would we be now?

In the end, that's a moot point, we are where we are, and we're no better a team heading into 2008 than we were heading into 2006 (and most would argue we're worse). The clock is running, and half his contract has been used up already.Yeah, but...

...Herm seems to have wrestled some modicum of control from CP and acquired buy-in for his future-looking rebuild. The transformation of the D is obscured by an offense that led the NFL in 3-and-outs and tallied an embarrassing 125 plays of negative yardage from scrimmage.

The O was a downgraded/truncated version of the Air Coryell O that attempted to feature inside rushing (which was never a forte of this system) and eliminated 7 step drop backs (thus the true vertical game).

Herm inherited that contorted, muzzled version of the 2002 Chiefs offense and he needed to either go back to Al Saunders' version or move forward to a whole new construct. Given the clamor for youth and player-oriented systems/schemes, Herm can still make a major stride forward with an offensive coordinator that has the imagination and flexibility to build his system around his players as opposed to his players around his system.

The '08 Chiefs will not win a SB but they may demonstrate that forgiveable youthful errors are an acceptable hurdle to building a dynasty of young, cogent players coalescing together around a key player (hopefully a franchise QB) that may mature into a perennial contender.

Let's hope.

Extra Point
01-04-2008, 11:12 PM
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

Nam regnat nunc omnipotens Deus.
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

Ipsius terra est, terra est et Christi eius, et Christi eius, qui regnat nunc et omne per aevum.

Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

Regum rex, deorum Deus! qui regnat nunc et omne per aevum.

Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!
Translatum, please!

keg in kc
01-04-2008, 11:12 PM
The question for me isn't whether he can do it so much as whether he has time to do it. I don't think we're a talented enough team to go from 4-12 this year to 12-4 next year. Will he survive another .500-ish season as head coach after what's sure to be a brutal offseason for the organization, and a growing disquiet throughout the fanbase?

We could have a blackout next year, I think it's that bad now. They've made their sacrificial lamb firings this year (none of which I have a problem with to be honest...), next year I think the HC gets the axe without major improvement, 4-year deal or no.

Because regardless of whether the focus of the franchise is to fill the seats or win a title, the fact is that seasons like '07 further neither of those goals...

cdcox
01-04-2008, 11:14 PM
Translatum, please!

You've heard it before. It's the Halleluja Chorus from Handel's Messiah.

KCJohnny
01-04-2008, 11:19 PM
The question for me isn't whether he can do it so much as whether he has time to do it. I don't think we're a talented enough team to go from 4-12 this year to 12-4 next year. Will he survive another .500-ish season as head coach after what's sure to be a brutal offseason for the organization, and a growing disquiet throughout the fanbase?

We could have a blackout next year, I think it's that bad now. They've made their sacrificial lamb firings this year (none of which I have a problem with to be honest...), next year I think the HC gets the axe without major improvement, 4-year deal or no.

Kyle, surely you know this equation.

Herm will be Carl's final hire. Carl will not fire Herm in the middle of the most drastic Chiefs rebuild since 1989. He will back Herm all the way, and Herm will deliver a playoff team no later than 2009.

That (in many peoples' eyes) puts us squarely back in 1994, which may be the signature of the Peterson era.

Whether Herm can transcend his previous accomplishments or not will be dependent on his potential for growth. He seems to have gotten the message that his offense is putrid and may invest significantly in its resurgence.

Let's be clear about one thing, however: the O that DV inherited was ranked #8 in the league and the pass attack was ranked #5. Herm inherited an O in decline and I doubt he had much control over personnel decisions (hence signing LJ to a $19 mil deal)...

keg in kc
01-04-2008, 11:35 PM
Let's be clear about one thing, however: the O that DV inherited was ranked #8 in the league and the pass attack was ranked #5. Herm inherited an O in decline and I doubt he had much control over personnel decisions (hence signing LJ to a $19 mil deal)...To call that an "inheritence" is a blatant misrepresentation, John, and I'm sure you know that. The 2000 offense was scrapped and rebuilt over both the 2001 and 2002 offseasons. By the time it grew into one of the league's top unit in '02, it featured a completely rebuilt offensive line, completely rebuilt (albeit never successfully so) WR unit, completely rebuilt backfield and a new quarterback. The only notable holdover starters from 2000 were Tony Gonzalez, Tony Richardson and Will Shields.

On the o-line, John Tait lasted until '03, as I recall, when he left for Chicago after failing at OLT in '01, and losing the job to Roaf in '02, after which he played on the right side. Roaf, again, took over at OLT. Brian Waters didn't play a down for the Chiefs before starting at center to open the '01 season, and then moving to left guard. Casey Wiegman was acquired to replace Tim Grunhard at center.

Trent Green speaks for himself.

Priest Holmes was brought in. Tony Richardson remained, playing almost exclusively fullback after Holmes' initial breakout early in '01.

Of the wide receiver core, Derrick Alexander was released and no holdover from the 90's ever made a meaningful impact on the Vermeil team as a wideout.

That's a whole new roster, not a unit built under one staff continuing under another...

cdcox
01-04-2008, 11:38 PM
To call that an "inheritence" is a blatant misrepresentation, John, and I'm sure you know that. The 2000 offense was scrapped and rebuilt over both the 2001 and 2002 offseasons. By the time it grew into one of the league's top unit in '02, it featured a completely rebuilt offensive line, completely rebuilt (albeit never successfully so) WR unit, completely rebuilt backfield and a new quarterback. The only notable holdover starters from 2000 were Tony Gonzalez, Tony Richardson and Will Shields.

On the o-line, John Tait lasted until '03, as I recall, when he left for Chicago after failing at OLT in '01, and losing the job to Roaf in '02, after which he played on the right side. Roaf, again, took over at OLT. Brian Waters didn't play a down for the Chiefs before starting at center to open the '01 season, and then moving to left guard. Casey Wiegman was acquired to replace Tim Grunhard at center.

Trent Green speaks for himself.

Priest Holmes was brought in. Tony Richardson remained, playing almost exclusively fullback after Holmes' initial breakout early in '01.

Of the wide receiver core, Derrick Alexander was released and no holdover from the 90's ever made a meaningful impact on the Vermeil team as a wideout.

That's a whole new roster, not a unit built under one staff continuing under another...

KCJohnny is saying that all these replacement players were completely unneccessary. The Chiefs could have kept sailing along with the 2000 offense and expected to rank in the top 5 in passing.

Extra Point
01-04-2008, 11:40 PM
A bulletized version on the Chiefs' offense of 2007 is lining up Hank Stram's corpse with Carl, Herm, and the coaching staff pulling the triggers on AK47's.

The madness has to stop. Carl has to be told that Herm knows how to pick talent, and that the next OC is hands-off to both CP and HE.

keg in kc
01-04-2008, 11:42 PM
KCJohnny is saying that all these replacement players were completely unneccessary. The Chiefs could have kept sailing along with the 2000 offense and expected to rank in the top 5 in passing.Well, if that's the case, I don't know that anybody could feasibly argue either side of that coin with any kind of factual foundation; it's pure fantasy.

Logical
01-04-2008, 11:46 PM
Great job refuting why retooling KC's #5 passing attack was task #1 under the Vermiel regime.

Cunningham's 2 years finished at .500. DV's first 2 years were 14-18. Get a clue, OK?

Why don't you mentions how the scoring offense was when we had that #5 passing attack?

KCJohnny
01-05-2008, 12:00 AM
KCJohnny is saying that all these replacement players were completely unneccessary. The Chiefs could have kept sailing along with the 2000 offense and expected to rank in the top 5 in passing.
You miss the point; Grbac was the QB in 2000 with 4,169 yds passing, 28 TDs and 14 INTs. Compare that performance with any of Trent Green's outputs.

The point is, DV changed the system, and then had to adjust the system to the players. The Martz O that DV pimped in 2001 featured fast, twitchy WRs; our actual best players were the TE and FB. So he adjusted the offense to accomodate those players.

That resulted in Priest Holmes becoming an elite RB in a pass-to-set-up-the-run offense. LJ likewise exploited that scheme.

My point is that the Chiefs offense was already ascendant when Vermiel took the helm. We already had a PB QB but he sacrificed a #1 and a #3 draft pick to get Green here with his playbook. Herm assumed an O in freefall decline with a 36-yr old QB, and OL with al 30+ year olds, and 30 year old receivers and RBs. Herm did well to reverse the embarrassing trend on defense. That had to be accomplished at the expense of the aging O because of decisions made by the previous regime.

keg in kc
01-05-2008, 12:15 AM
My point is that the Chiefs offense was already ascendant when Vermiel took the helm. You may be the only person on earth who would characterize that offense as "ascendent". Then again, you're also the only person on earth who thought Gunther was a good head coach. That's including Gun himself.We already had a PB QB but he sacrificed a #1 and a #3 draft pick to get Green here with his playbook. Herm assumed an O in freefall decline with a 36-yr old QB, and OL with al 30+ year olds, and 30 year old receivers and RBs. Herm did well to reverse the embarrassing trend on defense. That had to be accomplished at the expense of the aging O because of decisions made by the previous regime.That much I agree with, but you and I will be very unpopular for saying that, and said to be "blaming DV and excusing Herm" when we do it.

Because apparently there's no way someone can possibly acknowledge problems in both the previous regime and the current one. It all has to be Herm's fault, a decade of poor drafting and generally unproductive free agency hires be damned.

KCJohnny
01-05-2008, 12:27 AM
You may be the only person on earth who would characterize that offense as "ascendent".
Context, my friend, context. Look at the Chiefs offense in the 1990s and you will see nothing of the bold, daring downfield attack of 2000. That much is in the record. Much of that can be attributed to the high performance OL that DV inherited. Tony Gonzalez obviously starred in that O. Granted, Derrick Alexander fell off, but Eddie Kennison produced.

Gun had more guts for attacking defenses than Marty. When the maulball attack fell apart due to injury in 2000, Gun adjusted fire to produce a top 10 offense and a top 5 passing game.

Herm has had to deal with the aging of a win-now plan on personnel and that initially means losing.

I still stand by the 2000 Chiefs as ascendant. If we could have kept Elvis and drafted a defensive player #1 in 2001, we might have moved into the elite status in the league.

Douche Baggins
01-05-2008, 12:34 AM
I still stand by the 2000 Chiefs as ascendant. If we could have kept Elvis and drafted a defensive player #1 in 2001, we might have moved into the elite status in the league.

ROFL

Not with the foot-shuffling porter as the head coach.

KCJohnny
01-05-2008, 12:41 AM
ROFL

Not with the foot-shuffling porter as the head coach.

Yeah, right.

DV in hist 1st 2 years: 14-18.
Herm in his 1st 2 years: 13-19.

Gun in his 1st 2 years: 16-16.

You don't pass the common sense test.

Douche Baggins
01-05-2008, 12:46 AM
Yeah, right.

DV in hist 1st 2 years: 14-18.
Herm in his 1st 2 years: 13-19.

Gun in his 1st 2 years: 16-16.

You don't pass the common sense test.

His record is irrelevant. He was a disgustingly awful head coach who had no business coaching any team. He was immediately kicked downstairs to linebackers coach following his utter failure of a tenure as a head coach.

But he makes a great foot-shuffling porter.

keg in kc
01-05-2008, 01:51 AM
I still stand by the 2000 Chiefs as ascendant. If we could have kept Elvis and drafted a defensive player #1 in 2001, we might have moved into the elite status in the league.I think you make some assumptions that would, with all likelihood, not have come to pass.

You're assuming that Derrick Alexander would have repeated or exceeded his career-best production in 2000, despite the fact that he managed only 41 catches during injury-plagued seasons in 2001 and 2002, before retiring. Alexander was at best a mid-level receiver, good for 50-60 catches and 800-900 yards; he was not a legitimate #1 and 2000 was clearly an aberration.

You're also assuming that, had he not forced the poison pill clause in his contract, Grbac's performance in 2000 was not an aberration, although his career numbers clearly state otherwise. You're also assuming he wouldn't simply retire unexpectedly after the 2001 season just as he did in Baltimore. Many questioned his heart on gameday, and I think the way he ended his career proved them all right.

(If you'll recall, I supported Grbac in '99 and '00. In retrospect, I was wrong about him.)

You're also making a bizarre statement that the defense was somehow "one player away". Despite the fact that the events of 2001-2005 were nothing more than the continuation of a tailspin that began in 1998. The Chiefs unit was mediocre, at best, under Gun as a HC, and filled with old players and second-tier free agents.

This team, under Gunther, did not have anything approaching the talent of the league's elite. They were the same under him as they were under Schottenheimer, the same as they were under Vermeil: a motley collection of journeymen and second-rate players. Because, the fact is, the one thing all Chiefs coaches of the last decade plus have had in common is an utter inability to successfully draft, and a predilection towards wasting free agent money on players who more often than not fail to produce.

We can point the finger at Vermeil for where the team finds itself now, but the reality is, had the team drafted better from 1994 to 1999, and had the team done a better job in acquiring free agents over that time, the salary-cap dump and free agent sprees of the Vermeil era would not have been necessary.

In the end, the team Vermeil left was sadly far too much like the team he was handed, which is lacking talent, lacking depth, lacking leadership, lacking star power, and often lacking heart. And in the end, the problems of 2007 that Herm will have to overcome do not merely date back to Vermeil and 2001, they also date back to Schottenheimer and the mid-90s. This is a trend that goes back more than a decade, and is the end result of an entire era characterized by poor player personnel decisions.