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View Full Version : LJ behind a zone blocking scheme


cdcox
01-02-2008, 01:08 PM
Putting aside concerns about the 416 carry season and injury, I honestly don't know how this will work out.

When I think of zone blocking, I think of a back running parallel to the LOS and then cutting up (or cutting back) HARD into a hole. It's all about options, reading where the hole is, and quick change of direction.

When I think of LJ, I think of someone who is world class in an open field once he gets his shoulders turned. I've seen him run two types of running plays to perfection. First is he hits an open hole like no ones business. Doesn't even have to be very big. Give him a crease WHERE THE HOLE IS SUPPOSED TO BE and he'll make the most of it. Second is the DV/AS power sweep. The play is slow developing and relies on patience by the back to allow the linemen to engage their blocks. Stutter-stepping is okay and there is plenty of time to get the shoulders pointed up the field.

LJ does not seem very strong at reading holes. I've seen numerous times that I though something could be made by making a quick cut and chosing a different hole or by bouncing the run to the outside. I've noticed that he doesn't turn his shoulders very well unless there is a lot of time such as on the DV/AS power sweep.

Who knows. Maybe LJ will be devastating in the zone blocking scheme, but it just seems to me that from what I've seen it may be a poor match.

Interested to hear the thoughts of others.

el borracho
01-02-2008, 01:10 PM
Why do people think we are moving to a zone-blocking scheme? Where did this idea come from?

BigRedChief
01-02-2008, 01:11 PM
Why do people think we are moving to a zone-blocking scheme? Where did this idea come from?Done deal. Get with the program.:harumph:

Latest evidence was Clayton on ESPN saying we are going to a zone blocking scheme and that Gibbs would be the OL coach to implement it.

LJ may not be the best reader of holes but it's perfect for the play action bootleg style Brodie is better suited for.

cdcox
01-02-2008, 01:16 PM
Why do people think we are moving to a zone-blocking scheme? Where did this idea come from?

First I saw of it was the Whitlock end of year grades article. Then BigRedChief said that was the plan. Then the emergence of Bates as OC. Then Mort on ESPN with the mention of Gibbs. If it's not true, someone at 1 Arrowhead Drive is going to a lot of trouble to make people think that is the direction we are going.

HemiEd
01-02-2008, 01:18 PM
Putting aside concerns about the 416 carry season and injury, I honestly don't know how this will work out.



But, but it has to be the best thing. Herm just said they were going to change the offense to suit the players.

Sounded good, but now he needs to hire someone to make the connection. cdcox you should have put your phone number in that post.

Chiefnj2
01-02-2008, 01:18 PM
KC doesn't even have an offensive coordinator yet everyone is so certain of the scheme the guy will run?

FAX
01-02-2008, 01:23 PM
I don't think of LJ as a cut back runner, that's for sure.

FAX

cdcox
01-02-2008, 01:23 PM
KC doesn't even have an offensive coordinator yet everyone is so certain of the scheme the guy will run?


Good question. Some possibilites:

1) The Chiefs already know who the coordinator is and are just working out the details.

2) Part of the power struggle between Herm and Carl. One party puts out some information that would support their candidate in hopes that it will help sway the final decision.

3) Herm just knows that's what he wants to run. Whoever comes it will run it.

bowener
01-02-2008, 01:24 PM
I always thought you wanted a big back for zone blocking because you want them running north and south. I really do not know at all, but it seems LJ would be good at this, all he has to do is take the handoff, look for a hole, and plant one of his feet and stab through the hole going down hill... isnt he supposed to be a terror to take down going north and south?

Direckshun
01-02-2008, 01:24 PM
I'd think LJ's patience would be perfect for the holes to develop.

patteeu
01-02-2008, 01:25 PM
I don't know if LJ is capable of identifying the hole or not, but the fact that there is only one cut required to get into the secondary fits him pretty well IMO. One thing he's proven to me is that he's not able to wiggle around and dart from side to side as he maneuvers his way through the defenders. He's great if he gets a head of steam up and finds empty space in his path, but if he's got to make something on his own at the line of scrimmage, he's more likely to tiptoe behind his lineman than he is to find an obscure hole or dive into a crease.

cdcox
01-02-2008, 01:28 PM
I always thought you wanted a big back for zone blocking because you want them running north and south. I really do not know at all, but it seems LJ would be good at this, all he has to do is take the handoff, look for a hole, and plant one of his feet and stab through the hole going down hill... isnt he supposed to be a terror to take down going north and south?

LJ is a great N-S runner, no doubt. He makes great cuts up to about 45-degrees.

I'm thinking of a stretch play where the back runs parallel to the LOS and then cuts it up field. The angle of the cut is typically from 60 to 120 degrees. It's the transition from parallel to the LOS to getting to N-S that I percieve as a weakness for LJ.

Chiefnj2
01-02-2008, 01:30 PM
Good question. Some possibilites:

1) The Chiefs already know who the coordinator is and are just working out the details.

2) Part of the power struggle between Herm and Carl. One party puts out some information that would support their candidate in hopes that it will help sway the final decision.

3) Herm just knows that's what he wants to run. Whoever comes it will run it.

my thoughts on your possibilities:
1. I agree. Based on past decisions regarding Vermeil and Herm and Gun, it appears that the team has a plan in place before firing anyone. It's all lip service after the fact.

2. I don't believe the power struggle at all. Herm has no long time connection with the Hunt family. How is he going to win a power struggle when he just finished the worst KC season of coaching in the past 25 years.

3. This is scarey because we all know Herm's strength isn't on the offense. I'd rather let the new OC decide the strengths of the players. It also goes against what Herm said in his interview recently about designing a system around the players. I'm not sure any existing OL has played in a zone system before.

cdcox
01-02-2008, 01:32 PM
I'd think LJ's patience would be perfect for the holes to develop.

The difference I'm seeing is that the runs in a zone blocking scheme require quicker cuts. The power sweeps where LJ showed such great patience wasn't a quick cut. LJ typically would slow down, stutter step while turning his body up field, then explode past the defenders as they were engaged by the pulling linemen.

FAX
01-02-2008, 01:32 PM
I'm amazed that you guys see LJ as a cut back style rusher. I just don't see it. He's always struck me as more of a power back with an after burner in the open field.

I've always heard that, in the goat scheme, the RB is told to make one cut, and one cut only. In other words, hit the hole then run where they ain't. On second thought, maybe LJ could excel at that.

FAX

HonestChieffan
01-02-2008, 01:32 PM
I don't think of LJ as a cut back runner, that's for sure.

FAX

Amen.

cdcox
01-02-2008, 01:34 PM
I don't know if LJ is capable of identifying the hole or not, but the fact that there is only one cut required to get into the secondary fits him pretty well IMO. One thing he's proven to me is that he's not able to wiggle around and dart from side to side as he maneuvers his way through the defenders. He's great if he gets a head of steam up and finds empty space in his path, but if he's got to make something on his own at the line of scrimmage, he's more likely to tiptoe behind his lineman than he is to find an obscure hole or dive into a crease.

I think your point about requiring only one cut has some validity. I guess we'll have to see.

Anything would have to be better than this year.

OnTheWarpath58
01-02-2008, 01:34 PM
my thoughts on your possibilities:
1. I agree. Based on past decisions regarding Vermeil and Herm and Gun, it appears that the team has a plan in place before firing anyone. It's all lip service after the fact.

2. I don't believe the power struggle at all. Herm has no long time connection with the Hunt family. How is he going to win a power struggle when he just finished the worst KC season of coaching in the past 25 years.

3. This is scarey because we all know Herm's strength isn't on the offense. I'd rather let the new OC decide the strengths of the players. It also goes against what Herm said in his interview recently about designing a system around the players. I'm not sure any existing OL has played in a zone system before.

Which raises the question:

Out of the mid-tier FA OL, who has experience in a zone blocking scheme?

I say mid-tier because it's highly unlikely they are going after the high priced FA.

bowener
01-02-2008, 01:37 PM
I know how to settle this, who has madden 08? Put LJ on the donks team and tell us how it works out.

vailpass
01-02-2008, 01:45 PM
The Broncsification of the Chiefs continues./KCJ

Frankie
01-02-2008, 01:47 PM
How I screamed for LJ to be traded when he had value, before the season!!! :shake: Can you imagine if we were going into this draft with that extra 1st? For one thing Mecca would spare us the million posts about not getting an OLB in the 1st.

OnTheWarpath58
01-02-2008, 01:48 PM
The Broncsification of the Chiefs continues./KCJ


LMAO


I believe "Donkification" is the correct nomenclature.

Frankie
01-02-2008, 01:48 PM
Kolby will probably flourish. :hmmm:

dallaschiefsfan
01-02-2008, 01:49 PM
I'm amazed that you guys see LJ as a cut back style rusher. I just don't see it. He's always struck me as more of a power back with an after burner in the open field.

I've always heard that, in the goat scheme, the RB is told to make one cut, and one cut only. In other words, hit the hole then run where they ain't. On second thought, maybe LJ could excel at that.

FAX

It seems to me that this is a yes/no. Yes...he's more of a power back. But it seems his best stuff has happened with a hybrid approach. All the "Christian Okoye" type plays I've seen LJ run seem to yield short yardage or worse. It's like he's a power back, but not the type that can be run up the gut most of the time. As someone already mentioned, he seems to tip-toe a little too much and runs into the backs of his linemen way too much. He's not Priest, either. I'm clueless on the zone blocking thing and how that fits into all this, because I'm not privy to the finer points of that scheme.

Frankie
01-02-2008, 01:50 PM
It seems to me that this is a yes/no. Yes...he's more of a power back. But it seems his best stuff has happened with a hybrid approach. All the "Christian Okoye" type plays I've seen LJ run seem to yield short yardage or worse. It's like he's a power back, but not the type that can be run up the gut most of the time. As someone already mentioned, he seems to tip-toe a little too much and runs into the backs of his linemen way too much. He's not Priest, either. I'm clueless on the zone blocking thing and how that fits into all this, because I'm not privy to the finer points of that scheme.
LJ is only powerful after the hole is open.

OnTheWarpath58
01-02-2008, 01:50 PM
How I screamed for LJ to be traded when he had value, before the season!!! :shake: Can you imagine if we were going into this draft with that extra 1st? For one thing Mecca would spare us the million posts about not getting an OLB in the 1st.

You're assuming we could have gotten a R1 in return for him......

FAX
01-02-2008, 01:50 PM
... For one thing Mecca would spare us the million posts about not getting an OLB in the 1st.

That, in and of itself, would be well worth a 2nd round pick, Mr. Frankie.

FAX

dallaschiefsfan
01-02-2008, 01:53 PM
LJ is only powerful after the hole is open.

I will certify this statement as true.

FAX
01-02-2008, 01:56 PM
It seems to me that this is a yes/no. Yes...he's more of a power back. But it seems his best stuff has happened with a hybrid approach. All the "Christian Okoye" type plays I've seen LJ run seem to yield short yardage or worse. It's like he's a power back, but not the type that can be run up the gut most of the time. As someone already mentioned, he seems to tip-toe a little too much and runs into the backs of his linemen way too much. He's not Priest, either. I'm clueless on the zone blocking thing and how that fits into all this, because I'm not privy to the finer points of that scheme.

There was a really good thread on here somewhere that had a nice breakdown on the zone scheme as compared to others, Mr. dallaschiefsfan. I wish I could remember what the name of the thread was, and I'd direct you to it. Perhaps someone else can help.

Basically, it involves the line sealing one side and blocking as a group on the other side in order to try and create a gap. As I understand it, the runner then looks for the resulting ginormous hole and, hopefully, cuts back into the second or third level.

For some reason, I'm having difficulty envisioning LJ performing the actual "cut back" part.

FAX

jjchieffan
01-02-2008, 01:56 PM
What about Kolby Smith? Is he better suited to the zone blocking scheme?

OnTheWarpath58
01-02-2008, 01:58 PM
There was a really good thread on here somewhere that had a nice breakdown on the zone scheme as compared to others, Mr. dallaschiefsfan. I wish I could remember what the name of the thread was, and I'd direct you to it. Perhaps someone else can help.

Basically, it involves the line sealing one side and blocking as a group on the other side in order to try and create a gap. As I understand it, the runner then looks for the resulting ginormous hole and, hopefully, cuts back into the second or third level.

For some reason, I'm having difficulty envisioning LJ performing the actual "cut back" part.

FAX

This might be the thread you are looking for.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=177821

Skip Towne
01-02-2008, 01:59 PM
The Broncsification of the Chiefs continues./KCJ
I'd prefer to be Patsificated.

dallaschiefsfan
01-02-2008, 02:00 PM
There was a really good thread on here somewhere that had a nice breakdown on the zone scheme as compared to others, Mr. dallaschiefsfan. I wish I could remember what the name of the thread was, and I'd direct you to it. Perhaps someone else can help.

Basically, it involves the line sealing one side and blocking as a group on the other side in order to try and create a gap. As I understand it, the runner then looks for the resulting ginormous hole and, hopefully, cuts back into the second or third level.

For some reason, I'm having difficulty envisioning LJ performing the actual "cut back" part.

FAX

Hmmmm. If that's the case, Kolby might mysteriously begin to look just as good as LJ with such scheme. I'm not as worried about LJ cutting back, but I don't think he will look that much better than Kolby in such a scheme.

Frankie
01-02-2008, 02:07 PM
You're assuming we could have gotten a R1 in return for him......
Before this year there would have been NFL patsies who would have given us a 1st+ for him. He was the rage, remember? Now, other teams see him as who he really is, a limited, expensive, full-bellied underachiever.

Garcia Bronco
01-02-2008, 02:10 PM
LJ is a great N-S runner, no doubt. He makes great cuts up to about 45-degrees.

I'm thinking of a stretch play where the back runs parallel to the LOS and then cuts it up field. The angle of the cut is typically from 60 to 120 degrees. It's the transition from parallel to the LOS to getting to N-S that I percieve as a weakness for LJ.
If he reads it right up the middle he's running N-S

dallaschiefsfan
01-02-2008, 02:12 PM
This might be the thread you are looking for.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=177821

Ok...I read the primer. It seems like whoever our OL guys are going to be next season, they're gonna' have to get reaaaaaly comfy with one another before they do it well. With new faces coming in, I expect any implementation of such a scheme to be painful for the first half of the season, if not the entire season.

Garcia Bronco
01-02-2008, 02:12 PM
Oh and your chop blocking dirty o-line will be the dirty of dirty o-lines in the game. you'll be the only team the chop-blocks.

Garcia Bronco
01-02-2008, 02:12 PM
:)

Rausch
01-02-2008, 02:14 PM
Oh and your chop blocking dirty o-line will be the dirty of dirty o-lines in the game. you'll be the only team the chop-blocks.

I don't even think this line could chop block effectively. We give up sacks on plays we're called for holding...

Chiefs=Good
01-02-2008, 02:15 PM
Well to me the countless times that LJ has been going in one direction (of the set play) and then taken it back the other way for a huge gain, makes me believe that YES LJ will be more than fine in a zone blocking system. Then i think, is that what zoneblocking really is?

FAX
01-02-2008, 02:16 PM
Well to me the countless times that LJ has been going in one direction (of the set play) and then taken it back the other way for a huge gain, makes me believe that YES LJ will be more than fine in a zone blocking system. ...

Hmmmm. I just don't remember seeing a whole lot of that.

FAX

ChiTown
01-02-2008, 02:21 PM
LJ is only powerful after the hole is open.

That's what she said.

I'll be here all week. Try the veal........