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View Full Version : Battle for #2 QB: IMPORTANT!


KCJohnny
07-28-2001, 10:09 AM
The #3 QB won't even dress for several games. Green, like every other NFL QB could go down to injury (God forbid). If that happens, who will be able to operate in the Saunders/Coryell system in leiu of Green?

Please state your reasons.

KCJ

stevieray
07-28-2001, 10:30 AM
I thought DV stated that Collins was #2. Brister came here knowing he'd be #3.

bishop_74
07-28-2001, 10:30 AM
Honestly, I have only seen Bubby play. I couldn't give you an accurate answer.

KCJohnny
07-28-2001, 10:34 AM
Stevie Ray,
Unless there has been recent news, I believe what you are basing that on is that Collins was listed as #1 before we traded for Green.

I don't see any upside in playing Brister unless we are in the playoff hunt when (if) Green goes down.

This is NOT a light topic when looking athe the fortunes of the 2001 Chiefs. Green is NOT 100% as we speak with opening day a mere 6 weeks away. He is also sacked once in every 10 attempts (career) and will be alone in the backfield with many 1-back sets including having the 205 lb Holmes blocking 260-290 lb DEs from time to time.

Let's hope we don't get to find out who will be the best #2. But if that occurs, I like Collins, and would like to see him get his shot.

KCJ

keg in kc
07-28-2001, 10:38 AM
John, fyi, this is from DV's July 27th conversation on KCChiefs.com (http://kcchiefs.com/latest/mainnews.asp?storyID=2288&cat=4):

Q: Who's the backup quarterback ?

VERMEIL: "Todd Collins is the backup quarterback. He's been here the whole time and (QB) Bubby (Brister) came here knowing that. If it's glaring that Bubby is more prepared to play now then we would do that. But right now, Todd Collins is the guy."

California Injun
07-28-2001, 10:40 AM
Proctor,

Don't you think EVERY team in the NFL has this problem? Go research this and then assess your Chicken Little analysis.

I'll give you a top 5 to illustrate;

St. Louis Rams
Oakland Raiders
Denver Broncos
Minnesota Vikings
Green Bay Packers

KCJohnny
07-28-2001, 10:40 AM
Kyle,
Thanks for the update.
I like that. I guess I should have posted a poll asking what is the liklihood of Collins taking a lot of snaps this year. My best guess is that the odds are 1:1 that Collins will take as many as 1/3 of all the snaps this season. So #2 is VERY important.

KCJ
Glad that DV finally did something that he likes...

KCJohnny
07-28-2001, 02:46 PM
No $#!+ Sherlock.

I know other teams are in the same boat, but I don't CARE about them.

The fact is, whoever is backing up Green is of major consequence in both the short and long run of the Chiefs' future. And the talent/potential pool is NOT even at no.s 2, 3 and 4.

KCJ

KCJohnny
07-28-2001, 02:48 PM
And how do you figure the Donx are in that boat? They resigned Gus and are solid at every offensive position.

KCJ
Trying to keep cool in the midst of foolishness...

Zebedee DuBois
07-28-2001, 03:35 PM
#10's knee doesn't look like it's bothering him right now!
http://www.uwrf.edu/chiefs/webcam/photos/2001/20010728/10/Chiefs307282001a5661.jpg

more pics at http://www.uwrf.edu/chiefs/webcam/webcam_index.php3?yearid=3

philfree
07-28-2001, 03:45 PM
I wish I could post pictures like that. DuBoise, post picture #239. Better yet post it on the Broncos or Raider boards.
It's a funny!

PhilFree :cool:

California Injun
07-28-2001, 03:47 PM
Proctor,

Surprising a Chaplin would resort to such language. :rolleyes:

So you think Gus Ferrotte is better than Todd Collins, eh?:rolleyes:

My point is that ANY team will see a vacuum when their starter goes down. The Broncos without Griese are horrible no matter how great you think "Headbutt" is.

The only foolishness I see (except for Karl Malone trying to extend his career) is fans who continue to postulate on the "What if the plane crashes?" scenarios.

The Chiefs just opened training camp. Did you notice?

Aren't you a bit excited?

I realize losing Deion Sanders is a tough thing but at least bask in the glory of seeing the Chiefs on the field again.

Zebedee DuBois
07-28-2001, 04:09 PM
http://www.uwrf.edu/chiefs/webcam/photos/2001/20010728/10/Chiefs307282001a5659.jpg
This guy is so fast, his shorts can't keep up!

FYI.... to post a picture 1.) locate picture on the web and right click. 2.) bring up properties, highlight the address and copy. 3.) Come back to the BB and in your post, type {img}paste the picture address{/img} EXCEPT instead of using the { }, use the [ ]

philfree
07-28-2001, 04:17 PM
{img}http://www.uwrf.edu/chiefs/webcam/photos/2001/20010728/10/Chiefs307282001a5659.jpg[/img]

philfree
07-28-2001, 04:18 PM
Damn!

Zebedee DuBois
07-28-2001, 04:21 PM
Square brackets, my friend, square brackets.

philfree
07-28-2001, 04:30 PM
[img]http://www.uwrf.edu/chiefs/webcam/photos/2001/20010728/10/Chiefs307282001a5659.jpg[img/]


I thought you just meant on the 2nd set. Thanks though! Asumming I got it right this time.

PhilFree :cool:
~Computer Challenged~

philfree
07-28-2001, 04:31 PM
Nope!

Zebedee DuBois
07-28-2001, 04:34 PM
OK, on that one you ended with when it should be

philfree
07-28-2001, 04:39 PM
Ah Ha!

http://www.uwrf.edu/chiefs/webcam/photos/2001/20010728/10/Chiefs307282001a5659.jpg

Zebedee DuBois
07-28-2001, 04:42 PM
Yeah! philfree, way to go.

You have leaned much, oh grasshopper.

philfree
07-28-2001, 04:44 PM
Most great-i-ful Mastuh!

Warrior5
07-28-2001, 06:54 PM
Good question, Chaplain. Only thing I can do at this point is see what fleshes out at TC.
On a related note, I'm <I>very</I> interested in how Helming rates out in all this. He's pretty much an unknown at this point, but with oldsters at #2 and #3, he could play a prominent project role in planning for next year.

Tomahawk 11
07-28-2001, 07:04 PM
I am with the warrior on this. It would be totally refreshing to see the chiefs finally build up a player from scratch instead of always buying one. I hope Helming gets a spot.

California Injun
07-28-2001, 07:11 PM
Do you mean like Matt Blunder?

The only QB the Chiefs have built up from scratch was Bill Kenney, and he only lasted a few years before that disastrous Blackledge experiment.

We have to face reality here. Until the Chief hit the skids, (I'm talking 3-13, 4-12 tire marks) we'll never groom a QB at One Arrowhead Drive.

AJKCFAN
07-28-2001, 07:41 PM
Helming is our next Ted White. The only thing he shares in common with Warner is the Northern Iowa diploma.

Of the 12 teams in last year's playoffs, how many were homegrown? This being FROM LAST YEAR Let's see...

Ravens: Dilfer starting, Banks backing up. Both FA pickups.

Giants: Collins starting, Garrett backing up. Both FA pickups.

Raiders: Gannon starting, Hoying backing up. Both FA pickups.

Vikings: Culpepper starting, Brister backing up. Culpepper homegrown (# 1 pick), Brister FA pickup.

Titans: McNair starting, O'Donnell backing up. McNair homegrown, O'Donnell FA pickup.

Dolphins: Fiedler starting, Huard backing up. Fiedler FA pickup, Huard homegrown.

Saints: Brooks starting, Blake backing up. Brooks homegrown, Blake FA pickup.

Eagles: McNabb starting, K. Detmer backing up. Both homegrown.

Rams: Warner starting. Green backing up. Warner homegrown. Green FA pickup.

Buccaneers: King starting, Zeier backing up. King homegrown. Zeier FA pickup.

Colts: Manning starting, Holcomb backing up. Both homegrown.

Broncos: Griese starting. Frerotte backing up. Griese homegrown, Frerotte FA pickup.

Total: 12 starters (8 homegrown, 4 FA pickups). Interestingly, only 1 homegrown starter was playing in the Conferece Championship Round (Culpepper) and they got shut out that day.

Of those 8 homegrown QB's, Manning was drafted 1st overall, McNabb 2nd overall,McNair 3rd overall, and Culpepper 11th overall. How could the Chiefs have drafted any of those 4 QB's from where they've been picking? That leaves us with King (2nd round), Griese (3rd round), Brooks (5th round), and Warner (FA pickup) and you know what. King was so impressive, Brad Johnson is the Bucs QB this year. Griese would still be holding a clipboard had Elway kept playing and was backing up a guy named Brister once. Brooks still collects splinters on his *** if Blake doesn;t fracture his foot. And Warner would have remained a hidden treasure had Rodney Harrsion didn't lunge for Green's knee two years ago.

12 backups (9 FA pickups, 3 homegrown)

24 QB's (13 FA pickups, 11 homegrown)

Conclusion: Cal_Injun is right. Unless the Chiefs can be in a position to draft a stud in the 1st round, it becomes a crapshoot to try to find a QB and rather than throw some untested QB to the lions (and I don't mean the Detroit Lions), it's best to go get a Trent Green, a Joe Montana, a Steve DeBerg, an Elvis Grbac, a Rich Gannon, a Dave Kreig, etc because it sure beats having a QB who for some reason has to be play because you have to play a rookie and groom a young QB. That's such BS. You play if you're good enough or if the QB in front of you goes down and you're next in line to buckle up the chinstrap.

Who would you rather have to lead this new Chiefs offense? Someone who knows it backwards and forwards like Trent Green or someone who needs time to learn the system, as well as what an NFL defense and blitz package is all about like Drew Brees?

I'll take Green, thank you very much. The Chiefs were sure to agree...

everyone's mom
07-28-2001, 08:43 PM
That is an excellent post.
You are exactly correct.

KCJohnny
07-29-2001, 07:29 AM
I was hoping the Chiefs would have ventured a low level pick for Josh Heupel.
They just don't grow their own QBs in KC. Never have. Even Lenny the Cool was an NFL drop out before coming to the AFL.
Partly because the Chiefs always seem to be in the hunt, with no 'rebuilding' time. My question was/is, IF Green goes down, who best can continue to lead this offense?

We all want Green to go 16 games; but how realistic is that in the modern NFL?

How many QBs started all 16 games last year? I bet it was 7 or fewer.

KCJ
Karl Malone 2nd all-time leading scorer, will be first next year!

Otter
07-29-2001, 07:55 AM
Adam,

Just because you draft a QB doesn't mean you have to play him right away. And unless the situation is right such as in Indy when they were rebuilding and Manning was good enough to start him right away, you shouldn’t ‘throw him to the lions’. You start him at the #3 backup position and let him develop and assess him over 2 or 3 year period. Ala Chad Pennington.

Lets look at some of the best QBs of all time:

John Elway, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Dan Marino. All home grown QBs.

That whole list down below you mentioned can't even a hold a hat to the above guys. Don’t you think being with the same team and same system and same overall surroundings virtually their whole career had something to do with it?

Granted, the kind of players above are hard to come by but not even TRYING to develop a talented QB draft pick into your franchise QB is a bunch of horse $hit. Especially with these brilliant offensive minds we have now.

As a mater of fact, please explain the disadvantage to me.

This is a sore spot with me buddy! ;)

KCJ,

That’s a tough question. Who the heck knows what Collins is capable of or if he can even still play. I think its too early to tell although, lets see how they perform in training camp.

KCJohnny
07-29-2001, 01:42 PM
Collins is a Michigan product- the same school/system that produced Jim Harbaugh, Elvis Grbac, and Brian Griese, BTW- all NFL starters. Which of these 4 owns the big passing records for the Wolverines? Collins.

That doesn't mean that he is as good/better than the other Mich alumni, but that he definitely has the potential if he could get a break. Gun named Grbac his man a priori, joined himself at the hip with Grbac to sink or swim, and when Moon was signed, it was understood the HOFer would be the #2. Collins never had a chance in the Gun regime.

Now, I believe DV is looking for a QB who can step in if/when Green takes tha nasty hit. We all know Bubby can cover a hole, but there is no future with the Bubster (the same reason I was against signing Moon) and Collins is the best blend of experience and youth. That said, I would rather the Chiefs sign Ornstein or Helmer and cut Bubby altogether, to get some kind of project kicking. If only Carl would have drafted Heupel...

KCJ

AJKCFAN
07-29-2001, 02:19 PM
Otter:

It's been years since the Chiefs could have drafted a QB like what you mentioned. Granted, they could have drafted Marino, but opted for the other major QB from the Keystone State, and we all know how great a pick that turned out to be. Someone from the Chiefs must have gotten a stiffy out of watching the Sugar Bowl and thought Blackledge was the answer to our prayers.

Who, in the past several years, could the Chiefs have realistically drafted that would have made a difference at the QB position, especially when they were so committed to Grbac as being their present and future QB? The only QB I was really enamored with (who the Chiefs had a chance to draft) the past several years was Jake Plummer, but the Chiefs sacrificed their 2 to move up in the 1st round to draft some TE from California. You know, that fella who wears # 88. Goes by the name of Gonzalez.

Aaron Brooks sure looks like an incredible talent at QB, but come on now. If Blake doesn't get hurt, we would never know about the guy. Furthermore, if he were a Chief, he was never seeing the field last year. Had Grbac got hurt, Moon would've definitely been at the ready to take over. And had Brooks been a Chief, he would've been treated the same as Todd Collins... keeping the seat warm until they got the QB they really wanted, Trent Green.

Until the Chiefs completely collapse, which is a 5-11 season or worse, they will NEVER consider grooming a QB. They will use the Draft to solidify other positions of need. It's a policy I don't embrace, but it's always been the Chiefs way.

Isn't the 2002 Draft loaded at QB? Maybe you'll get your wish then. However, if the Chiefs have a decent year or beter, and Trent Green kicks *** along the way, I wouldn't be expecting it...

stevieray
07-29-2001, 02:29 PM
Hey, adam, check your email

stevieray
07-29-2001, 02:29 PM
Hey, adam, check your email

AJKCFAN
07-29-2001, 02:50 PM
I did... and thanks!

Also, I tried e-mailing you back but the e-mail listed from you was sending it back as undeliverable.

So, I sent over 3 Smoke Signals to you instead. Please check and if you don't have Smoke Signals, activate it from your profile options.

In the meantime, come to the Foundation website and register. That's free to do. The website's address is at the bottom of the signature below...

California Injun
07-29-2001, 05:35 PM
If there is any validity to re-incarnation then I want to come back as a #3 QB. You never get into the game and the fans just love the he!! out of you.

I would like to see Collins grab the #2 spot but my focus is on what Green can do. Until he snaps a leg on the field, this is of no concern to this fan.

chief52
07-29-2001, 06:53 PM
Otter;

Just for the record, Steve Young started with the USFL LA Express and then played for the Tampa Bay Bucs before the 49ers received him in a trade. Started 19 games with Tampa Bay during the 85 and 86 seasons after being their #1 draft choice. 49ers got him for a second and a fourth prior to the 1987 season. What a trade :)

KCTitus
07-30-2001, 09:13 AM
A couple of notes, Adam:

Brooks of the Saints was the backup who was starting after Blake went down with injury. Also, Brooks was a FA pickup from Green Bay.

Warner of STL was a FA pickup as well who had been out of football for a couple of years after being waived by GB as well.

It's ironic that this topic has come up for discussion this year when there really wasnt all this handwringing by the author last year when we had Gramps himself backing up an obviously more injury prone QB in Elvis.

I honestly believe that Bubby or Collins will be merely adequate and will still be better than Moon in a backup situation.

If EG could stay healthy behind our OL, why would anyone think that Green couldnt. If I recall, EG started 15 of 16 games.

Packfan
07-30-2001, 10:01 AM
Adam,

Titus is in error again. Brooks wasnt a free agent. He was TRADED by the Packers to the Saints for 3rd and 5th round draft picks. Brooks has always been the Saints QB of the future. You dont give up 3rd and 5th rounders with the intention of having the player sit the bench his entire career.

I realize Carl's QB drafts have been awful. It would be nice if gun-shy Carl would try again and draft a QB and develop him. It doesnt have to be a high pick either. The Packers, for example, drafted Brooks, Hasselbeck, Brunell, and Ty Detmer all in the 5th round or after. That has been within the last seven years.