View Full Version : NFBT: Planet of the Apes
07-28-2001, 07:29 PM
Just got home from viewing it.
One word: crap!
Makeup fx are outstanding - Rick Baker's best work - that's saying quite a lot: he won the Oscar for his work on An American Werewolf in London
Plot is sub-par and dialogue is atrocious. Think Waterworld with monkeys. :rolleyes:
Wait for cable or video - it is NOT worth full admission. Heck, it's really not even worth matinee price.
07-28-2001, 08:29 PM
Thanks for the tip.
Actually, I like the idea of one of the BB members "taking one for the team" when providing a review for the rest of us on a movie that is horrible.
I think we should make this a regular NFBT.
Again, I appreciate the financial (and mental) sacrifice HC.
keg in kc
07-28-2001, 09:57 PM
I saw it today, too, HC, and I went in expecting it to suck so maybe my opinion was skewed a bit by that, but I didn't think it was that bad. I think seeing the makeup and several of the space effects are worth the price of admission, but beware: the end is a big letdown IMHO (I knew this going in however...).
There's some funny scenes, some incredible fx and some good action. In other words it's a typical "summer film". Go in expecting that and you'll be fine. Go in expecting anything more, and you'll be sorely disappointed.
That's pretty much my mantra for every movie nowadays, actually, as sad as it is to say. I don't expect much from filmmakers anymore. I really hope that with my expectations for Lord of the Rings that I'm not setting myself up for a huge disappointment...
07-28-2001, 11:53 PM
Damn, and I was looking forward to it. Sounds like Pearl Harbor with chimps instead of Japs.
Won't be wasting my money on it. Besides, a year from now it'll be on my multiple HBOs 15 times a day for a month.
07-29-2001, 01:50 AM
This is now the second film I've planed on the next day only to see A ******* POST UP THE DAY BEFORE telling me how terrible it is....
Pearl Harbor.....ok, good call...Thanks for the warning...
Final Fantasy....great feat in computer animation. Worth price of admission just to see what is possible these days. Confusing and fos plot....
POTA.....Man, i really dug the old ones....not the actual films mind you, but the ideas and the social message they expressed. Moral decay and disregard for the rights of others for the benefit of the few...
I hope this is just an example of opinions varrying....:mad:
07-29-2001, 02:01 AM
Has anyone noticed the lack of character development over the glitz of special effects? If the only reason you go to see a movie today is to be satisfied with the latest in computer graphics then you are being cheated.
Now this is not to slam ORIGINAL premises that were supported by FX's (i.e. Jurassic Park, Independence Day, Roger Rabbit, Star Wars, et al) but how could POTA be improved over the original?
Ahhh, Rick Baker is the make up guy.
I recently got sucked in with Tomb Raider and won't get taken again. Idiotic plot lines just frustrate the heck out of me.
keg in kc
07-29-2001, 02:15 AM
I saw final fantasy last night, brad. I'd say it was better than POTA, although there were glaring weaknesses with the plot and the characters weren't well-developed. It was amazing to see what they did with CG in that movie. In any event, I enjoyed both films, I just don't consider either of them to be "great".
Like I said before, I don't expect much from movies anymore. I really think they've lost the "art" of it, for lack of a better word. We've gone for visual feast over mental meal, and character development and plot are clearly secondary to k3wL sparkles. It's definitely style over substance, and I guess it's in part indicative of our "instant gratification" culture. Nowadays people need something to draw their attention and aren't willing to sit through a 3 hour film with depth and where you grow to care about a character.
It's like computer game, in a way (like on another recent thread) where you have gamers grouped into people who want instant gratification and "excitement" (quakers/fps fans, arcade-style racers etc) and people who are willing to put in time and effort to get an ultimate reward (rpg fans, gran turismo fans, people like me, basically ;)).
It's evident when a film like Deterrence, with a great story, great acting, great characters but absolutely no effects goes straight to video and is hidden on the bottom shelves at Blockbuster whilst popcorn/candy flicks like Pearl Harbor, The Mummy Returns and POTA pull in hundreds of millions in summertime box offices...
That's not a sleight against those summer movies. I watch them and enjoy them with everyone else. They're fun! But they aren't "great" films. Those days just seem to be over. No more Casablancas. :(
Hope I'm wrong...
(This is also what motivates me to write more than anything, btw.)
Hope I'm wrong.
07-29-2001, 03:06 AM
I have noticed this as well...
A Clockwork Orange, POTA, Full Metal Jacket, Apocolypse Now, Taxi Driver, The Godfather(1 and 2 only), The Time Machine, The Shape Of Things To Come, The Doors, Tora Tora Tora, Platoon, The Deer Hunter, Fandango(Costner before he sucked), The Day After, Goodfellas, and Aliens.....
Story....Plot......Characters....Emotion.....an actual POINT....A STATEMENT.....
We're just getting old....:D
07-29-2001, 08:05 AM
Nice list there!
Since you guys are talking movies....
I saw that you had Clockwork Orange on your list. Did you see the movie “Fight Club”?
If you liked the plot to Clockwork Orange you may like Fight Club as well. It’s on my favorite list right along with some of yours: Full Metal Jacket, Goodfellas, Apocalypse Now, The Godfather...
What I took from the movie was that it is trying to portray men and society and how they’ve become trained to repress their emotions, not make any waves, always be politically correct for fear of becoming an outcast or losing your job. 'Be one of us”.
I thought it was neat how this well to do guy who could easily be me or you is in this situation where he has a good job, cool apartment, nice wardrobe and all the toys but slowly finds out that all those things were just stop-gaps to fill the holes caused by the lack of spirituality in his life. His constant suppression of uproar and disapproval cause him to become so numbed by society that in order to release any emotions he has to start going to these support meetings and interact with people who are dying just so he can feel something and release emotion which eventually causes him to..... That’s where I’ll stop in case you didn’t see it.
Its not the same as Clockwork Orange, but their two sides of the same coin.
Clockwork Orange is more about rebelling through violence in my opinion. Fight Club is about being suppressed by society in order to fit in and how we’ve become detatched from our primal nature. Fight Club is much more relevant to modern society.
If you didn’t see it you might really like it considering your movie roll above.
I know its an older movie but I'm about 4 years behind the theatres. The last movie I saw in the theatre was "True Lies"!
I’m feeling intellectual this morning. :D
07-29-2001, 11:00 AM
Brad - I strongly suggest waiting for video on POTA. The effects are brilliant, but that is all there is to the movie.
This movie is basically awesome makeup and costume design emmersed in a <i>horrible</i> script (see: Wterwolrd, The Postman, etc). Gone from POTA is the social commentary - gone is the gutteral impact of the brilliant ending of the '69 classic. Tim Burton takes a steamy dump all over the original with every tongue-in-cheek cameo (Heston) or line ("get your damn dirty hands off of me, human!").
I went into this movie expecting very little (after reading various online reviews). Usually, I can get past the weaknesses in a script if the film is entertaining (see: Jurassic Park 3) - but I just could not get past how empty <I>this</i> film is.
Otter - I loved FightClub :) (even bought the DVD)
Have you seen Snacth yet? It's outstanding - makes me LoL every time I view it :)
07-29-2001, 11:08 AM
I thought Planet Of The Apes was a good movie, dealing with the cautions of bioengineering.
07-29-2001, 11:45 AM
Are you telling me that Heston makes a cameo in this film?
What a crock given that he was bumped off in "Return". In fact, Heston had to have his arm twisted to re-appear in the second movie because he thought the original movie pretty much summed up the political message the director was aiming for.
But "Return" needed Charlton's drawing power so he agreed. But the caveat was he got knocked off early in the movie per his request.
So when is this going to rental?
07-29-2001, 05:18 PM
Broke down and saw it.
Personally, I thought there was MORE social comentary than in the original, BETTER script, and realistic looking and acting apes.
Only downfall in my book?
MARKY MARK......Not a leading man. Probably his best acting yet, which is still average at best. He never really did command the screen like he needed to in the climaxes and dramatic scenes. I thought the Aussie from "Gladiator" would have done a magnificant job in the role...
The ending......I'm not sure I understand it(and would love a smoke signal from anyone with ideas) but that is also a part of sci-fi.....It's not SUPPOSED to be all nice and neatly laid out for you. I liked the enigmatic ending and overall I'd give it a B rating.....Not as in B movie, but as in one leading man short of an A....:rolleyes:
07-29-2001, 05:19 PM
OWN and LOVE fight club....
"You are NOT Your Ikea furniture!...The things you own end up OWNING YOU!"
07-29-2001, 05:41 PM
Are you telling us that the ending leaves it open for ANOTHER franchising sequel?
Who would have thunk it?:rolleyes:
07-29-2001, 05:51 PM
I have it on DVD as well. I bought the one with the extra behind the scenes CD. Your not missing anything if you don't have it.
The only good extra on the DVD I found was where you listen to Ed Norton, Brad Pitt and Marla (forget her real name) talk about the movie instead of listening to the dialog.
Glad to see I’m not the only fight club fan. I don’t know a whole lot of people who thought of it as more than a run of the mill action flick.
07-29-2001, 05:52 PM
It would only make sense...
I think of the original POTA as a series that should have been a trilogy....
Two good and one ok ape flick...then it's just garbage...
I liked the original film in the future, then the "past", then the "FAR FUTURE"....
This trilogy (and a deal has already been made for two more) has the potential to be better.
A big part of me is upset at the people who just expected this movie to be something it wasn't. Like Godzilla, I saw it because I loved the old cheap versions I watched as a kid that had a moral lesson and special effects straight from your neighbors garage....
Godzilla was a cheesy remake by some special effects Guru's who loved the old guy in a rubber suit dinosaur flicks.....That's it. If you liked the older ones, and get all teary over things like Godzilla, Battlestar Galactica, Mork and Mindy, The Land of the Lost, and other cheese-fest sci-fi you go back to see the updated versions...:D
07-29-2001, 05:55 PM
His name is Robert Paulson....
Bob with the ***** ****...lol
Gotta love Meatloaf in that role
07-29-2001, 05:57 PM
There are only about 200 paralells to Fight Club and A Clockwork Orange....:D
In both films people already made up their minds about the flick before even getting to what the message of the film was. A Clockwork Orange was anti-violence and against any technology that overrides morality or robbs free will. Life will rehabilitate the common man, but science can not...
A similar message in fight club, where man's needs/urges are being filled with gadgets and gizmos to protect the rest of society from "getting their toes stepped on."
You know what? I could care less if what I enjoy or partake in offends anyone. I don't do things in public that should not be done in public. I also don't give a **** what other people/groups think I SHOULD do....:mad:
Here's the rub, I have not seen the original. But, I LOVE Tim Burten, so going to this on opening day was a no brainer.
My first impressions were that it was pretty hokey. So, switched my brain over to "don't take this seriously" mode and the movie was very pleasent. The dialogue is crappy for the first 1/2 hour and Mark is really flat. He isn't Keanu Reeves bad, but as an actor you have to take chances and Mark is the acting equivlant of Martyball. While Hellena Bonham-Carter (who is Marla in Fight Club BTW) really impressed my as the sympathy for the humans ape. She is less apelike, and seems to be slightly more evolved than the other apes. That is, untill she gets scared or cornered. Then the monkey stuff takes over. It's subtle, but Hellena by herself makes this movie worth $5.00 admission. Then, you get Tim Roth as the in your face general who hates humans like the plague. "Is there a soul in there?" He sells every line, and is a real treat to watch. Finally, Tim Burton. This movie is very different for Tim who usually has his signature on every shot. (ie: Batman, Sleepy Hollow, Nightmare Before Christmas) His movies are usally much darker and "faker" looking, with huge set pieces and weird trees. This movie showed off Tim's ability to use the camera to enhance the scene without resorting to his usual dark ominous stuff that enhances mood. While I love those movies (with the exception of Sleepy Hollow) this was a nice change of pace.
Overall, this was tongue in cheeky, but a good movie with great cinimatography/special effects/direction/story. Also, I love those "grabber" endings.
07-30-2001, 09:22 AM
Wow - surprised by the positive reviews.
Well, not really <i>positive</i>... more like, "I liked it, <i>but</i>..."
Hollywood has set the standard so low, a movie with pretty visuals, hackneyed social commentary(man bad...man hurt animals), banal dialogue and woefully underdeveloped characters makes the most $ - simply because of mass-marketing.
Flipping channels this weekend, saw no fewer than FIVE 'specials' on the making of POTA. Why? I can see showing how Rick Baker and his team 'magically' transformed the actors into simian characters (brilliantly done, btw)... but WHY interview Marky Mark? WHY sit down with Tim Burton(huge, flaming HACK) and discuss storyline? POTA = excellent makeup FX(go ahead and scrawl Baker's name on the Oscar now) and well, that's pretty much it. The plot and characters and <i>scale</i> of this flick are even less developed than <i>The Mummy Returns</i>. This isn't even a good movie as far as 'summer popcorn flicks' go IMO.
07-30-2001, 09:39 AM
Fight Club lovers, although this movie wasn't boffo at the box office, it is pretty widely respected. And with good reason.
"Bob, Bob had b!tch ****."
"Like everyone else, I had become a slave to the IKEA nesting instinct. If I saw something like clever coffee table sin the shape of a yin and yang, I had to have it. I would flip through catalogs and wonder, "What kind of dining set defines me as a person?" We used to read pornography. Now it was the Horchow Collection. I had it all. Even the glass dishes with tiny bubbles and imperfections, proof they were crafted by the honest, simple, hard-working indigenous peoples of wherever."
"We were raised on television to believe that we'd all be millionares, movie gods, rock stars, but we won't. And we're starting to figure that out."
07-30-2001, 04:15 PM
"We were raised on television to believe that we'd all be millionares, movie gods, rock stars, but we won't. And we're starting to figure that out."
"And we're very, very, p1$$ed off..."
That last little tid-bit is what seals the deal....:D
07-30-2001, 05:13 PM
"I am Jack's total lack of surprise"
"Did you know you can make napalm with equal parts of gasoline and concentrated orange juice?"
"I sell the fat rich women have sucked off their thighs and mid-sections... they buy it back at a substancial markup of course"
07-30-2001, 06:57 PM
POTA = Fat Cheerleaders
The only real monkeys in this movie were the scriptwriters, who obviously spent their days flinging their turds around the cage.
And who slipped Marky Mark all that valium?
I am in the process of seriously re-evaluating my respect for Tim Burton. It makes me sick that movies like this get made, and that I pay for them...my 7yr old son walked out cussing, "Who the f**k do they think we are, dad?!" "I don't know, son" I said, "they must think we are f**king idiots."
"Well" he said, "we must be"
07-30-2001, 11:34 PM
POTA had many holes in it. I was worried when Kris Kristoferrson's name was in the opening credits. Movie is no Matrix for sure...
Wholes in order:
1. The SI model...ok the others in the human camp are dirt infested but she looks like she just came from a shoot..guess she got make up from the female apes
2. No dialouge at all. The original had references to social issues while this movie was monkeys hate humans, humans look for a leader to fight monkeys
3. MM character barely spoke....maybe that was good?
4. The lil monkey some how navigates the pod down in the middle of the battle (great big planet but some how...) then he gives a cute thumbs up ET sytle to MM....WEAK
5. Thade lives (set's up ending...)
6. MM somehow navigates the pod out the the cosmic storm, comes back to the solar system by saturn, and SOMEHOW gets the pod to hump it like 1,000,000,000,000 miles in like 5 seconds w/o burning up on re-entry
7. Finally, he conveniently lands in Washington DC, scoots down the Lincoln Memorial and see's Thade Memorial...Why isn't the city called Thade DC? Which planet was earth? did he every leave earth or what?
Guess that's something that'll get figured out in the sequel....
07-31-2001, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Booyaa
No dialouge at all. The original had references to social issues while this movie was monkeys hate humans, humans look for a leader to fight monkeys
I disagree their were many references to racism, environment issues, politics, bioengineering, religion,and animal rights in the new version.
07-31-2001, 03:19 PM
<i>their were many references to racism, environment issues, politics, bioengineering, religion,and animal rights in the new version.</i>
Ha! Hardly. More like: Man bad, monkey good. Man hurt monkey... man meanie-weinie. It was at such a sophomoric level; forced... contrived... hackneyed.
The original: Dr. Zaius was the religious/political leader. He knows the truth (that man once spoke and ran the planet) but would rather bury it than face it. There is a lot of meat and subtext to it. At the end, when we finally realize this 'alien' planet ruled by apes - where <i>humans</i> are the wild animals in zoos - is actually post-apocolyptic <i>earth</i>, WOW. :eek: It all comes together.
Burton's remake: Thade scowls at everyone and everything.... without a hint of motivation. Humans speak perfect English - but have nothing worthwhile to say (horrible character development).
In the original the humans weren't slaves, they <i>were</i> animals. Pets. Remember, they'd lost the power of speech, wandered around the woods, that kind of thing. The roles were totally reversed - it added to the gutteral impact of the brilliant original ending.
In this movie the humans are slaves, but can speak, think, survive - yet must have a contrived 'savior' to lead them? That's one of the things that bugs me, it's a <i>manufacured</i> feel-good-about-your-freedom, but bad about how we treat nature, message.
The end? TACKED ON. It makes no sense at all - it was Tim Burton(HACK) trying to throw in that Rod Serling twist at the end. Obviously, Burton(HACK!) is no Serling; and this movie, is no good.
keg in kc
07-31-2001, 03:56 PM
HC, here's some official fodder for your take on the new POTA ending:
Bruce Snyder, 20th Century Fox's head of distribution, talked to Zap2it.com about the controversial ending of Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes movie. Following are his comments, which may contain spoilers for the film.
The new surprise ending, intended to top the original 1968 film's Statue of Liberty ending, has many viewers scratching their heads. But, Snyder told the site, "Actually, you're not supposed to be able to [explain it]. If the truth be known, it wasn't really supposed to make sense. It was just supposed to go 'whoa,' make you think. Now is he in another world, did he go back in time, did he get forward in time?"
Snyder added, "The reality is, there's no firm answer to that. It's whatever you want it to be. Everybody keeps looking for [the answer], but you've got to remember you just watched a movie about talking monkeys in outer space. Don't look for too much logic, you know." Apes is now playing.
07-31-2001, 04:07 PM
Just proves my point: Hollywood thinks we're all morons (apparently, we are - we keep spending money on this sh*t).
This guy basically says: "Here's a movie with talking monkeys. We don't care about plot or story or script or anything substancial - who cares if it makes any sense?"
I salute him for his honesty.
07-31-2001, 09:27 PM
Example- Seimos"messiah of the apes" if you don't believe this is not infering about religion then I have 500 acres with a seashore view in Minesota that I can sell you.
keg in kc
07-31-2001, 09:31 PM
There's a big difference between a worn-out cliche and a commentary on religion.
07-31-2001, 09:40 PM
It defied religion, meaning their's only science.
It was trite, cliché-ridden, utterly predictable and stupid.
I was disgusted very early and began searching desperately for something worthwhile.
I have two nice things to say about this movie:
1. Tim Roth threw himself into the role with gleeful abandon. A short time into the film, I latched onto Roth as the only worthwhile bit in the entire mess.
2. The Heston cameo made me smile.
Otherwise, it was a waste of my time. I paid matinee prices and was overcharged.
Don't get me wrong, it is not the worst film I have seen for a while, The Thin Red Line still owns that place in my bowels, but it was the worst film I have seen all year. It left a distinctly bad taste in my mouth.
If you have not yet wasted your hard-earned money, I would advise you to wait for "dollar day" at the DVD rental shop. Maybe the extra features will be worth the buck.
Remembering Lost in Space with some fondness after PotA.
While I truely respect your opinion, I must say that you failed to mention Hellena Bonham-Carter in your "worth while" part. She and Tim Roth blew this guy away. It's tough to create a rich character when the script is so bad, and Hellena nailed it.
True, she did a good job in the most cliché-ridden role of a cliché-ridden film. But she was doomed in my eyes because of the make-up.
I was irritated the moment she came onto the screen. The male apes were amazing. They looked like apes. Big, POWERFUL, brutal. The female apes were "cute." That bugged me right off the bat and biased me against her. Not her fault, I know, but that really bugged me.
Not a big fan of "cute."
08-02-2001, 08:26 AM
Gaz - you got me worried. If you have a thin red line in your bowels, please PLEASE go see a doctor.
The only other organ The Thin Red Line could occupy would be my bladder.
Can you tell that I really did not like TTRL?
Venting his spleen [not his bladder or bowels].
I agree Gaz,
I'm not a fan of "cute" either. the Michelin tires or Johnson and Johnson adds used to really make me wanna puke. I just wanted to give it up to one of the better actresses of our generation. In a world where any "pretty woman" can get an Oscar, Hellena provides a breath of fresh air.
TTRL is the 2nd worst movie ever made. Two HOURS into the movie I was thinking... When is George Cloony even going to be introduced. He got head billing and NO screen time. The 1st worst is Bio Dome w/ Polly Shore. :mad:
Hey, deja vu. Didn't we have this conversation at the star?
08-03-2001, 03:13 AM
I thought Bio-Dome was funny, call me crazy but I like that goofy F*ck Polly Shores humor.:D :p
He was alright in "Son in Law" Bu that is the only starring role I like him in. He is good as a supporting moron. Like in Encino Man.
Well, I just saw POTA last weekend on dvd and so I figured I'd bring this topic back up. I thought it was an OK movie. IMO, it wasn't nearly as bad as some of you put it. However, it's nowhere close to being a great movie. Still, it was alright. This is why, for the most part, I don't waste my money at the theaters anymore. I usually wait until they come out on dvd. I'm like Kyle on this, I didn't go in expecting a lot. I also saw Final Fantasy and thought it was OK, too. It's amazing what they can do with CGI. Even so, I kinda wished they would've followed a story line from the game. The games are much more in depth than the movie was. Oh well, I guess you can only fit so much into a 1.5 to 2 hour movie. :cool:
01-03-2002, 09:31 PM
Izen - I only go for movies with the promise of terrific special effects. Otherwise, like you I wait for the video/dvd release.
While I will buy Lord of the Ring: The Fellowship of the Ring on DVD, I am glad I saw it on the big screen. The backgrounds and FX just won't be the same on a home television.
However, I can certainly wait for something like the new Cohen Brothers movie for the Hollywood Video release date.
01-03-2002, 09:32 PM
GET YOUR PAWS OFF ME, YOU DAMN DIRTY APE!
01-03-2002, 09:38 PM
Brock - Not in the new one. Charlton Heston believes that humans are the scourge now.
01-03-2002, 10:04 PM
I hope you realize that for the money you spent to go see the movie you could have bought it on DVD??!!:D
Why spend 20$ to see it when you just might as well buy it!!
01-03-2002, 10:12 PM
Shoot, it only costs me $5 to see a movie.... and no, I'm not over 65. I guess it is just cheaper down here for some reason.
Final Fantasy was a cool movie to see in the theatre. I was really floored by how well the characters were done.
You SHOULD see Lord of the Rings in the theatre. You will not be disappointed. Heck, I have seen it four times, so I guess I could have bought the DVD by now actually.
01-03-2002, 10:36 PM
Grimm - A new release dvd is between 20 and 25 bucks
A movie ticket in KC is about 7 bucks
Also keep in mind that I can see the world's greatest roller coasters on the Travel Channel for free, but it certainly isn't the same as riding them.
01-03-2002, 10:37 PM
Sunshine - I will still buy the dvd even though I have seen the movie on the big screen.
01-03-2002, 10:48 PM
how often do you go to movies alone???? ok...so thats already $14, SODA...you better sell a kidney! it cost $3.50 for a damn hot dog here!
and SORRY...but these 2 dont compare....home/theatre...just a bigger T.V.!! I have better surround than the movies...and i can sit in my underwear drinkin' Beer eatin' hotdogs for .50 a pack
and if all goes well... ill be alone with noone to bother me!!!
to hell with theatre!!!!;)
01-03-2002, 10:49 PM
KC, how do i put a pic in my avatar?????:confused:
01-03-2002, 11:11 PM
Grimm - Has to be 100x100pixels. If the pic is too big, play with it in Paintbrush and reduce it. Then go to options and save as your avatar.
01-03-2002, 11:12 PM
home/theatre...just a bigger T.V.
Ferris Wheel/Roller Coaster...... just a faster ride.
Clint in Wichita
01-03-2002, 11:16 PM
I don't go to the theater for the large screen...I go for the sound, which is why I usually only buy a ticket for special effects-laden movies like The Phantom Menace or The Matrix.
I've seen some badass home setups. None approaches the sound of a state-of-the-art theater. I almost wet myself while seeing The Matrix for the first time, not even knowing what it was about!
01-03-2002, 11:22 PM
But you have to find the right theatre. Many of them do not set up their acoustics abilities correctly. Speakers in the wrong place, too close to another theatre with sound bleeding through, excess volume, etc.
But when you find someone who balances it all perfectly, nothing compares.
vBulletin® v3.8.0, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.