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milkman
01-05-2008, 02:12 PM
I haven't watched the Redskins much this season, but according to commentaors and analysts, he has been playing pretty well, and is a big reason the Skins have advanced to the playoffs.

So the question comes to mind.

Would the Chiefs be any worse off today had they not given up a first round pick for Trent Green and just given Collins the job when Dick came to town?

RustShack
01-05-2008, 02:13 PM
I think the Chiefs would have been a lot better off if Herm would have kept Al Saunders here.

RNR
01-05-2008, 02:14 PM
I don't think Collins would have put up the numbers Green did.

The Bad Guy
01-05-2008, 02:14 PM
It's tough to say. Collins is having success in an offense he was with for 7 years now.

Would he have had that type of success just learning the system?

I doubt it.

The Bad Guy
01-05-2008, 02:15 PM
I think the Chiefs would have been a lot better off if Herm would have kept Al Saunders here.

Saunders wasn't staying here.

It had nothing to do with Herm. He wasn't playing second fiddle for Carl any longer.

doomy3
01-05-2008, 02:17 PM
I think the Chiefs would have been a lot better off if Herm would have kept Al Saunders here.


that wasn't an option

Thig Lyfe
01-05-2008, 02:18 PM
I think the Chiefs would have been a lot better off if Al Saunders had been promoted to HC.

doomy3
01-05-2008, 02:19 PM
The Redskins are here because of their Defense, BTW

milkman
01-05-2008, 02:23 PM
I don't think Collins would have put up the numbers Green did.

I would agree with that.

That, however isn't the question.

Would the Chiefs be any worse off if they hadn't traded for Green?

We suck now.

Would we suck anymore?

Thig Lyfe
01-05-2008, 02:24 PM
The Redskins are here because of their Defense, BTW

And also Sean Taylor's spectral powers.

HemiEd
01-05-2008, 02:26 PM
I don't think Collins could have done what Green did as soon. But I said at the time, and got roasted for it a few weeks ago, the mistake was made keeping Huard instead of Collins.

Of course, we know why Herm didn't keep Collins. It fit with his plan of getting rid of all of DVs players and coaches.

Herm's ego is very expensive.

Short Leash Hootie
01-05-2008, 02:27 PM
In 2002, most definitely...Collins didn't know the system.

In 2004, I don't think we would have been able to tell the difference.

Just my opinion...

milkman
01-05-2008, 02:27 PM
The Redskins are here because of their Defense, BTW

Again, I haven't watched the Skins.

I am just raising the question because Collins has started the last 4(?) games, and apparently hasn't sucked.

Short Leash Hootie
01-05-2008, 02:27 PM
Oh, and, I do realize Green had three million INT's in 2002...so maybe 2003 is what I meant?

doomy3
01-05-2008, 02:28 PM
I said at the time, and got roasted for it a few weeks ago, the mistake was made keeping Huard instead of Collins.

Of course, we know why Herm didn't keep Collins. It fit with his plan of getting rid of all of DVs players and coaches.

Herm's ego is very expensive.


Was Huard not here when Vermeil was?

Cochise
01-05-2008, 02:28 PM
Collins is a solid caretaker, a nice backup QB. Maybe one of the best in recent memory. But I doubt he could have made it as our starter.

doomy3
01-05-2008, 02:29 PM
Again, I haven't watched the Skins.

I am just raising the question because Collins has started the last 4(?) games, and apparently hasn't sucked.


No, I was actually responding mostly to the Saunders for HC posts. He really hasn't even done much as Washington's OC, and nobody wanted him as their HC either.

HemiEd
01-05-2008, 02:30 PM
Was Huard not here when Vermeil was?

Yes, but only 1 season as 3rd string IIRC. Herm made the Choice on which backup he was keeping, he chose Huard.

RNR
01-05-2008, 02:32 PM
I would agree with that.

That, however isn't the question.

Would the Chiefs be any worse off if they hadn't traded for Green?

We suck now.

Would we suck anymore?
20/20 hindsight can be painful, I don't think that 1st rounder was a make or break pick, but who knows.

doomy3
01-05-2008, 02:35 PM
Yes, but only 1 season as 3rd string IIRC. Herm made the Choice on which backup he was keeping, he chose Huard.


So, it wasn't really that he was trying to dump all Vermeil's guys as you say. He just chose one of Vermeil's guys over the other.

HemiEd
01-05-2008, 02:35 PM
Again, I haven't watched the Skins.

I am just raising the question because Collins has started the last 4(?) games, and apparently hasn't sucked.

I have watched all of his games this year, even when he just came in as a reliever. I posted in a thread how smooth the guy looked, even when his recievers were dropping passes left and right. Of course a couple posters took exception with his 8/25 stats, but they obviously didn't watch the game.
I get a kick out of some people who just pull the stats off of NFL.com and don't watch the actual performance. ROFL

HemiEd
01-05-2008, 02:37 PM
So, it wasn't really that he was trying to dump all Vermeil's guys as you say. He just chose one of Vermeil's guys over the other.
I don't consider Huard a Vermiel guy, he didn't have time to learn the offense like Collins did. He was a 3rd stringer for one season IIRC. But I get your point, understood.

milkman
01-05-2008, 02:52 PM
The question is, would we be any worse today if we hadn't made the trade?

If Collins actually managed the offense, would he still be playing for the Chiefs now?

If he wasn't able to manage the offense, would we have drafted a traded for a QB who would not have left us in a position where we had to suffer through Damon Huard?

And in the end, would the Chiefs suck more now than they already do?

doomy3
01-05-2008, 02:56 PM
What's to say that Collins is even better than Huard? Huard did lead us to the playoffs last year the same way Collins did for Washington this year. I just don't think either can be longterm starting QB options IMO.

Baby Lee
01-05-2008, 02:59 PM
I don't think Collins could have done what Green did as soon. But I said at the time, and got roasted for it a few weeks ago, the mistake was made keeping Huard instead of Collins.

Of course, we know why Herm didn't keep Collins. It fit with his plan of getting rid of all of DVs players and coaches.

Herm's ego is very expensive.
This year aside, you think Collins would have outperformed Huard as a Chief QB last year?

FAX
01-05-2008, 03:03 PM
The question is, would we be any worse today if we hadn't made the trade?

If Collins actually managed the offense, would he still be playing for the Chiefs now?

If he wasn't able to manage the offense, would we have drafted a traded for a QB who would not have left us in a position where we had to suffer through Damon Huard?

And in the end, would the Chiefs suck more now than they already do?

A very interesting question, Mr. milkman. It's difficult to imagine a quarterback who could have delivered a better offense than Trent. That first round pick would have been nice, though.

I think your last comment is basically right, however. We would still suck. Carl and Herm have slathered us with suck grease, pulled out all the suck stops, and sent us careening down suck mountain.

FAX

Skip Towne
01-05-2008, 03:06 PM
A very interesting question, Mr. milkman. It's difficult to imagine a quarterback who could have delivered a better offense than Trent. That first round pick would have been nice, though.

I think your last comment is basically right, however. We would still suck. Carl and Herm have slathered us with suck grease, pulled out all the suck stops, and sent us careening down suck mountain.

FAX
Herm just needs a little more time. It takes him 3 years to completely destroy a team.

Mr. Laz
01-05-2008, 03:30 PM
Posted on Fri, Jan. 04, 2008 10:15 PM
reprint or license print email
Digg it del.icio.us AIM
Former Chief Collins prepared for his opportunity
By RANDY COVITZ
The Kansas City Star

Washington has embraced quarterback Todd Collins (right), who will start in the playoffs today against the Seahawks.
Washington has embraced quarterback Todd Collins (right), who will start in the playoffs today against the Seahawks.
Todd Collins has led Washington to four consecutive victories and into the playoffs today against the Seahawks.

Each Tuesday without fail, Rich Gannon would walk into the Chiefs quarterbacks room to study film of the upcoming opponent, and Todd Collins would be there waiting.

Collins may have been the Chiefs’ third-team quarterback in 1998 and could have spent his day off fishing or shopping or sleeping in, but there he was, preparing for games in which he had little chance to play.

It’s a routine Collins followed for nearly eight years as a backup to Elvis Grbac, Gannon, Warren Moon and Trent Green in Kansas City, and the last two years in Washington behind Mark Brunell and Jason Campbell.

He could have pouted and politicked for a trade or a chance to play beyond preseason games. Instead, Collins kept preparing mentally on those Tuesdays in the film room while staying fit in the weight room.

And now, Collins, at age 36 and in his 13th NFL season, has been rewarded for his patience and perseverance.

When Campbell went down with a knee injury on Dec. 6, Collins was ready. He guided Washington to today’s NFC first-round playoff game at Seattle by leading his team to victories in four consecutive must-win games, completing 64 percent of his passes, including five touchdowns and no interceptions.

Until then, Collins had mopped up 12 games in nine seasons, completing 18 passes. His time between starts — 10 years, two days since he had last started a game for Buffalo in 1997 — was the longest period between starts by any quarterback since the 1970 merger.

“There was no guarantee that I was going to get another start, but I thought that the odds had to be in my favor that at some point I would get a chance,” said Collins, who was voted NFC Offensive Player of the Month for his December performances.

“I knew it might be my last chance, so that is how I prepared every game, getting ready because this could be it. I didn’t know when it was going to come. It took a long time, but I just wanted to be ready for that time so I had no regrets.”

Gannon, mostly a career backup before getting a chance at Oakland, where he became a league MVP in 2000, appreciated Collins’ determination.

“I can remember Todd being a pretty tough guy,” Gannon said. “That’s the thing I always liked and admired and respected about him. He was willing to do the work. I always thought he was a good player. They don’t keep you around in the NFL if you’re not a good player, if you’re not prepared to play, and you can bring something to the team.

“Todd has handled his situation in a first-class, very professional way. People don’t realize how difficult it is to jump into it and play at a critical point of the season.”

Al Saunders realized it. Saunders worked with Collins in Kansas City, and when he went to Washington as associate head coach/offense in 2006, Saunders insisted the club sign Collins as an unrestricted free agent to help implement the offense.

So when Campbell went down, the call went to Collins, not Brunell, a former Pro Bowler who had started most of the 2004-06 seasons.

“There was no question in my mind when he came here, he would be an outstanding quarterback if he had the opportunity to play,” Saunders said of Collins. “For 10 years he’s prepared himself for this opportunity and probably more diligently than anybody who has waited this long.

“What makes him special is his ability to continue to play that role for a long period of time. A lot of time guys in backup roles don’t take the job as seriously as a starter, because in the back of their mind, they think they might not have to perform. As long as I’ve been around Todd, that’s the thing that enamors you so much with him, his professionalism, and the way he deals with his role.”

Collins earned NFC Offensive Player of the Week honors for his performance off the bench against Chicago, completing 15 of 20 passes for 224 yards and two touchdowns for a passer rating of 144.6 on the night. He played mistake-free football in terribly cold and windy conditions in a critical road win against the Giants and was flawless in another key road win at Minnesota, leading to the playoff-clinching victory over Dallas.

His 106.4 passer rating would rank second in the NFL behind only New England’s Tom Brady (117.2) and his 8.46 yards per attempt would lead the league if Collins had enough attempts to qualify. In the second halves of the last three games, Collins has completed 30 of 39 for 432, two touchdowns and a 129.4 rating.

And now he’s the center of a media storm in the nation’s capital.

“The attention is fine,” Collins said. “You realize you have it when you are successful and then you get the flip side when you are not successful. It is really not why I play. I played for a long time without that. There are other things about the game that drive me rather than just the attention.

“Everyone likes to be recognized, but I think what is important with this is it has been the whole team that has been recognized as opposed to an individual.”

Saunders compares Collins’ story with that of Green, Gannon and Kurt Warner.

“All of those players were overlooked at some point in their career and just needed an opportunity,” Saunders said. “Trent got his when he got traded, Kurt Warner got his when Trent got injured, and now Todd has his.

“All four of them are similar players, very mature, they’ve got great character and values. They work extremely hard and take their job very seriously.”

Collins’ biggest payoff will come after the season, when he’s an unrestricted free agent. The price keeps going up.

“I’d hate to be the guy that has to pay him,” an appreciative Washington coach Joe Gibbs said. “He’s earning some money. That’s what happens when you play good. You get some rewards.”

doomy3
01-05-2008, 03:33 PM
Even Al Saunders offense looks like shit when the line is getting their ass kicked like the beginning of this game so far.

HemiEd
01-05-2008, 03:37 PM
This year aside, you think Collins would have outperformed Huard as a Chief QB last year?

That is a good question. I do for the reason that more of the AS offense still existed last year. He sat on the Chiefs bench for a lot of years, getting schooled on the system. I guess I may be prejudiced from several angles on this subject. I witnessed Huard make some great plays last year. Most notably, in the Jax game I attended.

HemiEd
01-05-2008, 03:50 PM
The question is, would we be any worse today if we hadn't made the trade?

If Collins actually managed the offense, would he still be playing for the Chiefs now?

If he wasn't able to manage the offense, would we have drafted a traded for a QB who would not have left us in a position where we had to suffer through Damon Huard?

And in the end, would the Chiefs suck more now than they already do?

Duh, I think it finally sunk into my cocunut where you are going with this.
I would say, knowing everything we know now, we would be better off now if they had not made the trade.

I don't think we would have enjoyed the record setting offense (this should get some shit started)the Chiefs had with Trent Green.

Heck, we might not be stuck with Herm Edwards had that not made that trade.

FAX
01-05-2008, 04:18 PM
Duh, I think it finally sunk into my cocunut where you are going with this.
I would say, knowing everything we know now, we would be better off now if they had not made the trade.

I don't think we would have enjoyed the record setting offense (this should get some shit started)the Chiefs had with Trent Green.

Heck, we might not be stuck with Herm Edwards had that not made that trade.

You're right, Mr. HemiEd. It's difficult to say what would have happened due to the space/time continuum problem in which a change to one thing affects all subsequent events which causes additional ripples throughout all time everywhere all the way to the present day time.

But this is probably what it would have happened: We keep the draft pick and Todd Collins which means we draft Santana Moss in the first round which means that Herm doesn't have him with the Jets, which means their offense sucks worse which means that he's fired in 2003 which means that we don't hire him. However, it also means that the Titans don't trade picks with the Rams because they don't have trade value which means that the Tacks pick in the first round which means that they get Reggie Wayne which means that McNair stays with the Titans because their passing game is better which means they don't draft Vince Young which means that Jeff Fisher becomes available which means that we hire him as HC, which means that we are 14 and 2 this year and in the playoffs.

FAX

milkman
01-05-2008, 06:02 PM
If we hadn't made the trade for Green, in all likelyhood we might well have drafted DT Daminone Lewis, who the Rams selected with the pick we traded.

If we had selected Lewis, then in all likelyhood, we probably would have not traded up in the next draft to select Ryan Sims, "settling" for John Henderson.

In all likleyhood we also would not have selected Junior Siavii in the following draft.

HemiEd
01-05-2008, 06:07 PM
You're right, Mr. HemiEd. It's difficult to say what would have happened due to the space/time continuum problem in which a change to one thing affects all subsequent events which causes additional ripples throughout all time everywhere all the way to the present day time.

But this is probably what it would have happened: We keep the draft pick and Todd Collins which means we draft Santana Moss in the first round which means that Herm doesn't have him with the Jets, which means their offense sucks worse which means that he's fired in 2003 which means that we don't hire him. However, it also means that the Titans don't trade picks with the Rams because they don't have trade value which means that the Tacks pick in the first round which means that they get Reggie Wayne which means that McNair stays with the Titans because their passing game is better which means they don't draft Vince Young which means that Jeff Fisher becomes available which means that we hire him as HC, which means that we are 14 and 2 this year and in the playoffs.

FAX

It turns out that trading for Trent Green was a bigger **** up than trading for Joe Montana!

HemiEd
01-05-2008, 06:08 PM
If we hadn't made the trade for Green, in all likelyhood we might well have drafted DT Daminone Lewis, who the Rams selected with the pick we traded.

If we had selected Lewis, then in all likelyhood, we probably would have not traded up in the next draft to select Ryan Sims, "settling" for John Henderson.

In all likleyhood we also would not have selected Junior Siavii in the following draft.

I think I will go stab myself right in the face now.

beach tribe
01-05-2008, 06:11 PM
If we hadn't made the trade for Green, in all likelyhood we might well have drafted DT Daminone Lewis, who the Rams selected with the pick we traded.

If we had selected Lewis, then in all likelyhood, we probably would have not traded up in the next draft to select Ryan Sims, "settling" for John Henderson.

In all likleyhood we also would not have selected Junior Siavii in the following draft.
ouch.

blueballs
01-05-2008, 06:13 PM
So Todd Collins was a Gun guy
since Gun was a foot shuffling porter
Todd Collins was a Carl Peterson guy

FAX
01-05-2008, 06:27 PM
God. I had almost forgotten about that tub of lard. What were they thinking?

FAX