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Logical
01-05-2008, 10:29 PM
I have now heard 4 of them say that the 12 million immigrants have to leave the country. They then admit that making that happen is not practical. Then finally they say the government does not have to deport them because if their plan is implement (various plans) the illegal immigrants will voluntarily leave the county. They cannot really believe that horseshit.

By the way Rudy, Fred, John, and Mitt's health care insurance through mandates are as scary or more scary than the plans being put forth for national healthcare by the Democrats.

Ron Paul is being awfully quiet and I think it may actually be helping him.

P.S. the though of watching Rudy addressing the nation`100s of times as President is scary. By the way he comes across as the next Mussolini of his time.

recxjake
01-05-2008, 10:34 PM
I have now heard 4 of them say that the 12 million immigrants have to leave the country. They then admit that making that happen is not practical. Then finally they say the government does not have to deport them because if their plan is implement (various plans) the illegal immigrants will voluntarily leave the county. They cannot really believe that horseshit.

By the way Rudy, Fred, John, and Mitt's health care insurance through mandates are as scary or more scary than the plans being put forth for national healthcare by the Democrats.

Ron Paul is being awfully quiet and I think it may actually be helping him.

P.S. the though of watching Rudy addressing the nation`100s of times as President is scary. By the way he comes across as the next Mussolini of his time.

Mitt Romney is the only candidiate pushing mandates for health care....

He said tonight at the debate, "I love mandates".... wow.





But Rudy was right on tonight on Immigration:

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recxjake
01-05-2008, 10:37 PM
Rudy on Health Care:

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Logical
01-05-2008, 10:43 PM
recxjake you are so blinded by the gleam you see in Rudy that you are no longer objective. It would be a waste of my time to try and rationally discuss this with you.

Ugly Duck
01-05-2008, 11:53 PM
if their plan is implemented (various plans) the illegal immigrants will voluntarily leave the county.

Oh yeah right.... 12 million Mexicans are going to pick up roots and go back to Mexico. You Republicans would be funny if you didn't have so many dang votes....

wazu
01-06-2008, 12:07 AM
If you successfully take away jobs and entitlement programs, and aggressively deport the ones you catch, it seems to me at least a portion are going to decide it's not worth it anymore. Add to that a secure border and I'm not sure what more you can do.

There are already stories in some of the border states of communities migrating back to Mexico because of aggressive enforcement policies. Imagine if the whole country was doing it.

Logical
01-06-2008, 12:14 AM
Oh yeah right.... 12 million Mexicans are going to pick up roots and go back to Mexico. You Republicans would be funny if you didn't have so many dang votes....

Exactly, when I heard the candidates make that statement I literally thought, WTF are they really this dumb?

Logical
01-06-2008, 12:16 AM
If you successfully take away jobs and entitlement programs, and aggressively deport the ones you catch, it seems to me at least a portion are going to decide it's not worth it anymore. Add to that a secure border and I'm not sure what more you can do.

There are already stories in some of the border states of communities migrating back to Mexico because of aggressive enforcement policies. Imagine if the whole country was doing it.

I guess I would want to see documented evidence that supports this statement. I am not suggesting you are lying, just that I have significant doubts they really are returning to Mexico.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 12:16 AM
Oh yeah right.... 12 million Mexicans are going to pick up roots and go back to Mexico. You Republicans would be funny if you didn't have so many dang votes....


You democrats would be perfect if you didn't want to force your ideals and way of life on me.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 12:18 AM
If you successfully take away jobs and entitlement programs, and aggressively deport the ones you catch, it seems to me at least a portion are going to decide it's not worth it anymore. Add to that a secure border and I'm not sure what more you can do.

There are already stories in some of the border states of communities migrating back to Mexico because of aggressive enforcement policies. Imagine if the whole country was doing it.



How hard could it possibly be to require proof of citizenship before providing ANY services? You can't prove your American, you can't see the doctor or get the foodstamps. Then what? I have a hunch that if an illegal family is facing death of a child because they can't prove citizenship, they may not want to be here in the first place.

Cochise
01-06-2008, 12:26 AM
Mussolini? I'm no Rudy fan but come on. You guys accuse him of preaching on fear, and then you say things like 'he could be the mussolini of his time', as if we are all going to be cowering in attics hoping the blackshirts don't find the secret passage behind the bookcase.

Somebody here is fearmongering, but it's not Rudy.

Cochise
01-06-2008, 12:30 AM
I guess I would want to see documented evidence that supports this statement. I am not suggesting you are lying, just that I have significant doubts they really are returning to Mexico.

We can fix this a lot easier than people think, I bet. We create a new agency of some kind that exclusively enforces immigration law in hiring practices. They can send their inspectors and raiding parties out to every turkey processing plant and coffee-can factory in America. Whoever is responsible for knowingly hiring illegals, including through neglecting to require verifiable proof of citizenship, faces jail time. Put a sentencing guideline on it, 2-5 years.

wazu
01-06-2008, 12:32 AM
I guess I would want to see documented evidence that supports this statement. I am not suggesting you are lying, just that I have significant doubts they really are returning to Mexico.

Here's a couple of articles I Googled. Some are going to Mexico, some just to other states that don't crack down.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1943244/posts

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/related/71835.php

Logical
01-06-2008, 12:36 AM
Mussolini? I'm no Rudy fan but come on. You guys accuse him of preaching on fear, and then you say things like 'he could be the mussolini of his time', as if we are all going to be cowering in attics hoping the blackshirts don't find the secret passage behind the bookcase.

Somebody here is fearmongering, but it's not Rudy.I suppose we are both fearmongering, the difference is I do not have the power to take away your rights.

Logical
01-06-2008, 12:40 AM
We can fix this a lot easier than people think, I bet. We create a new agency of some kind that exclusively enforces immigration law in hiring practices. They can send their inspectors and raiding parties out to every turkey processing plant and coffee-can factory in America. Whoever is responsible for knowingly hiring illegals, including through neglecting to require verifiable proof of citizenship, faces jail time. Put a sentencing guideline on it, 2-5 years.

I am not against your idea at all, but being realistic as a 17 year old I could get a fake drivers license with picture so obviously it is not that hard to get fake documents. How do you realistically enforce this policy on companies who legitimately obtain the required documentation but was unable to prove it was valid? Remember we are talking at least 12 million people.

Logical
01-06-2008, 12:42 AM
Here's a couple of articles I Googled. Some are going to Mexico, some just to other states that don't crack down.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1943244/posts

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/related/71835.php

I definitely believe they might be fleeing one state to go to another and some become homesick and the difficulty is just not worth the effort so they go back. But without a national policy that is being successfully enforced most will just from one state to another. JMHO.

HolmeZz
01-06-2008, 12:52 AM
You democrats would be perfect if you didn't want to force your ideals and way of life on me.

They're trying to turn you ghey.

Ugly Duck
01-06-2008, 01:00 AM
You democrats would be perfect if you didn't want to force your ideals and way of life on me.

No worries mate.... I certainly don't want to force anything on you. I want you to be free to blossom into all your youness.

ClevelandBronco
01-06-2008, 01:21 AM
How hard could it possibly be to require proof of citizenship before providing ANY services? You can't prove your American, you can't see the doctor or get the foodstamps. Then what? I have a hunch that if an illegal family is facing death of a child because they can't prove citizenship, they may not want to be here in the first place.

Talk to the judicial system. Your ideas may make you feel better, but they don't really matter to most of us.

Oh, yeah, they're also reprehensible.

Please go away.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 01:38 AM
Talk to the judicial system. Your ideas may make you feel better, but they don't really matter to most of us.

Oh, yeah, they're also reprehensible.

Please go away.


Hmm. We've ALWAYS gotten along to this point, and even shared some kind words for one another on multiple occassions. Now go away? Ok. Fine. In any case, lots and lots of things are reprehensible. War is reprehensbile, but unfortunately, at times it is a neccessity. There isn't a whole helluva lot of other options in handling millions of individuals who are leeching off of a system that is fragile enough as is. If you have something more humane, I'd be more than happy to hear it.

Let's talk about something else that is reprehensible. Community Health Centers. These are non profit, government funded clinics made available to people regardless of ability to pay. They are so backlogged that you need to set appointments over 30 days in advance. Emergency? Too bad, go to the ER and get stuck with a $650 bill for a routine $75 Doctor visit. These clinics are inundated with illegal immigrants that make it impossible for America's working poor to receive even the inadequate care that these clinics provide. I'm losing sympathy for people who are illegally here. There are plenty of people who followed the rules that don't have access to the programs they need because the funding is sapped by illegal immigrants. It's just my opinion, it doesn't count for shit. My suggestion may have been extreme, there are plenty of extremes. You have to pick your battles. Unfortunately, it's survival of the fittest.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 01:44 AM
They're trying to turn you ghey.



No worries mate.... I certainly don't want to force anything on you. I want you to be free to blossom into all your youness.


Ok. I was an idiot for wording this the way that I did. Taxes, and big government is my problem with democrats. I love their empathy, and it usually is enough for me to vote for them. I just don't buy into either party. They're all crooked in one way or another IMO.

ClevelandBronco
01-06-2008, 01:46 AM
Hmm. We've ALWAYS gotten along to this point, and even shared some kind words for one another on multiple occassions. Now go away? Ok. Fine. In any case, lots and lots of things are reprehensible. War is reprehensbile, but unfortunately, at times it is a neccessity. There isn't a whole helluva lot of other options in handling millions of individuals who are leeching off of a system that is fragile enough as is. If you have something more humane, I'd be more than happy to hear it.

Let's talk about something else that is reprehensible. Community Health Centers. These are non profit, government funded clinics made available to people regardless of ability to pay. They are so backlogged that you need to set appointments over 30 days in advance. Emergency? Too bad, go to the ER and get stuck with a $650 bill for a routine $75 Doctor visit. These clinics are inundated with illegal immigrants that make it impossible for America's working poor to receive even the inadequate care that these clinics provide. I'm losing sympathy for people who are illegally here. There are plenty of people who followed the rules that don't have access to the programs they need because the funding is sapped by illegal immigrants. It's just my opinion, it doesn't count for shit. My suggestion may have been extreme, there are plenty of extremes. You have to pick your battles. Unfortunately, it's survival of the fittest.

Perhaps I spoke too strongly, and yes I agree that the system is broken.

Wishing for dead kids to send a message is reprehensible, though.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 01:51 AM
Perhaps I spoke too strongly, and yes I agree that the system is broken.

Wishing for dead kids to send a message is reprehensible, though.


My wording was strong. If you have figured out my name change (from the mods I might add) then you should know I would NEVER WISH for a dead baby of any race, creed, color, breed, animal, etc. I just feel that the best solution to this problem is to lock down any and all services for people who are here illegally.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 01:54 AM
My wording was strong. If you have figured out my name change (from the mods I might add) then you should know I would NEVER WISH for a dead baby of any race, creed, color, breed, animal, etc. I just feel that the best solution to this problem is to lock down any and all services for people who are here illegally.


That being said, emergency medical services should be exempt. That part of it was for shock value. Just the wrong kind of shock value I guess. Fact is, if we did shut down emergency services, chances are illegals would still have a better chance here than there.

ClevelandBronco
01-06-2008, 02:01 AM
My wording was strong. If you have figured out my name change (from the mods I might add) then you should know I would NEVER WISH for a dead baby of any race, creed, color, breed, animal, etc. I just feel that the best solution to this problem is to lock down any and all services for people who are here illegally.

In light of what the judiciary has decided up until now, there is no way to accomplish what you're advocating without a specific Constitutional amendment. Such an amendment would never be introduced by any politician who has an ounce of self preservation.

The only way to stop the tide of illegal immigration is to punish our own citizens when they hire illegals. I'm not taking about fines. Employers have to face doing time. Nothing else will work, IMO.

Okay, that said, who the heck were you before the mods got to you?

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 02:13 AM
In light of what the judiciary has decided up until now, there is no way to accomplish what you're advocating without a specific Constitutional amendment. Such an amendment would never be introduced by any politician who has an ounce of self preservation.

The only way to stop the tide of illegal immigration is to punish our own citizens when they hire illegals. I'm not taking about fines. Employers have to face doing time. Nothing else will work, IMO.

Okay, that said, who the heck were you before the mods got to you?

I love the idea of business owners facing time for hiring illegals. IMO the whole reason we have them here doing jobs that most Americans "don't want to do" is because they undercut us in the first place. Good luck having a viable career in the construction, landscaping, etc. fields these days. Even still, if it changed tomorrow, IMO the damage has been done. I wasn't alive in the 50's but my understanding of it is, that if you were willing to work full time, regardless what you did you could afford to feed your family and provide basic neccessities to them. Now, 2 incomes can't always accomplish that. Our system, and capitalism in general is a survival of the fittest mentality. Doesn't seem like that was the idea when this country was founded.


Mr. Flopnuts by the way.

Logical
01-06-2008, 02:15 AM
In light of what the judiciary has decided up until now, there is no way to accomplish what you're advocating without a specific Constitutional amendment. Such an amendment would never be introduced by any politician who has an ounce of self preservation.

The only way to stop the tide of illegal immigration is to punish our own citizens when they hire illegals. I'm not taking about fines. Employers have to face doing time. Nothing else will work, IMO.

Okay, that said, who the heck were you before the mods got to you?If I am following all this, he was Mr. Flopnuts

ClevelandBronco
01-06-2008, 02:16 AM
Mr. Flopnuts by the way.

Shit.

There's no way I could feel worse about jumping all over your ass. I hate attacking the good guys.

Please accept my apology.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 02:17 AM
Doesn't seem like that was the idea when this country was founded.


Nor was the idea of letting children die because their parents break the law. Sometimes I post before I think out of frustration. Hopefully I have enough of a history here for people to know that I am not that dickhead. A dickhead for sure, but not THAT dickhead.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 02:18 AM
Shit.

There's no way I could feel worse about jumping all over your ass. I hate attacking the good guys.

Please accept my apology.


The part of my post that you attacked, was deservingly so. Check your rep, I gave you some personal insight into why I get as frustrated as I do over this inparticular issue. Please don't feel bad, I genuinely deserved it.

ClevelandBronco
01-06-2008, 02:22 AM
I love the idea of business owners facing time for hiring illegals. IMO the whole reason we have them here doing jobs that most Americans "don't want to do" is because they undercut us in the first place. Good luck having a viable career in the construction, landscaping, etc. fields these days. Even still, if it changed tomorrow, IMO the damage has been done. I wasn't alive in the 50's but my understanding of it is, that if you were willing to work full time, regardless what you did you could afford to feed your family and provide basic neccessities to them. Now, 2 incomes can't always accomplish that. Our system, and capitalism in general is a survival of the fittest mentality. Doesn't seem like that was the idea when this country was founded.

I can't argue against anything you've said here. My uncles prospered in the construction and landscaping trades.

I don't know, Flopnuts, maybe it has been changed forever, but I blame us. I don't blame them.

I'd sooner punish us.

ClevelandBronco
01-06-2008, 02:25 AM
The part of my post that you attacked, was deservingly so. Check your rep, I gave you some personal insight into why I get as frustrated as I do over this inparticular issue. Please don't feel bad, I genuinely deserved it.

You remain the man.

I'll just have to get used to you being the milkman.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 02:26 AM
I can't argue against anything you've said here. My uncles prospered in the construction and landscaping trades.

I don't know, Flopnuts, maybe it has been changed forever, but I blame us. I don't blame them.

I'd sooner punish us.


I can't disagree with you at all. Who can blame them for wanting a better life for themselves and their families? It's just disgusting to me that a select few of us in the name of greed have forsaken so many of our own. Another one of those things that I shouldn't dwell on because there is no positive that comes from it.

Logical
01-06-2008, 02:29 AM
I can't argue against anything you've said here. My uncles prospered in the construction and landscaping trades.

I don't know, Flopnuts, maybe it has been changed forever, but I blame us. I don't blame them.

I'd sooner punish us.Punishing us is the only prescription that might possibly succeed.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 02:30 AM
You remain the man.

I'll just have to get used to you being the milkman.

As are you. There aren't more than a handful of individuals here who I would've even bothered explaining my irrationalities too. I would've chalked it up to an emotional post that doesn't reflect who I am as a person, just who I am on the internet. You're at the top of that list. No ass kissing intended. I'm just impressed with most of your views on these types of situations. From what I've gathered, you have plenty of money, and still empathize with people who struggle everyday. It's a rarity to me.

ClevelandBronco
01-06-2008, 02:38 AM
Punishing us is the only prescription that might possibly succeed.

It's what's left after we factor in the idea that the possible punishments for them haven't worked.

ClevelandBronco
01-06-2008, 02:44 AM
As are you. There aren't more than a handful of individuals here who I would've even bothered explaining my irrationalities too. I would've chalked it up to an emotional post that doesn't reflect who I am as a person, just who I am on the internet. You're at the top of that list. No ass kissing intended. I'm just impressed with most of your views on these types of situations. From what I've gathered, you have plenty of money, and still empathize with people who struggle everyday. It's a rarity to me.

My friend, I lived in part on selling blood twice a week when I was young. I've struggled, I've prospered, and I've struggled and prospered again.

I'm hoping the cycle continues. I really like the struggling part.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 02:46 AM
I really like the struggling part.


It certainly makes things more interesting. As I've gotten older, and a little more fortunate, I find myself struggling to not be complacent.

Taco John
01-06-2008, 03:37 AM
Interesting discussion going on here.

Ron Paul has the "Disneyland" solution for fixing illegal immigration. People love Disneyland. When I'm there, I never want to leave. But something you'll notice when you visit the world's greatest family park - when they want you to go home, nobody has to escort you out. They simply turn off the rides and turn out the lights.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 03:47 AM
Interesting discussion going on here.

Ron Paul has the "Disneyland" solution for fixing illegal immigration. People love Disneyland. When I'm there, I never want to leave. But something you'll notice when you visit the world's greatest family park - when they want you to go home, nobody has to escort you out. They simply turn off the rides and turn out the lights.


I think that's what I was trying to elude to when I said to just cut off services unless you can provide proof of citizenship. Is that the jest of it? If not, please explain.

Taco John
01-06-2008, 05:22 AM
I think that's what I was trying to elude to when I said to just cut off services unless you can provide proof of citizenship. Is that the jest of it? If not, please explain.



Excatly. I just wanted to relay the metaphor... :)

wazu
01-06-2008, 08:43 AM
I definitely believe they might be fleeing one state to go to another and some become homesick and the difficulty is just not worth the effort so they go back. But without a national policy that is being successfully enforced most will just from one state to another. JMHO.

Agreed, but what is being proposed is national policy. The local policies have proven that if you crack down, they move on or go back to Mexico. If a national policy existed Mexico would just about be the only option, and it makes sense to me that there would be a large amount of attrition without requiring the U.S. to forcibly deport 12-20 million people.

jAZ
01-06-2008, 09:03 AM
If you successfully take away jobs ...
Oh, don't worry... the Republicans are working hard at that!

http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-fi-jobs5jan05,1,1342057.story?coll=la-headlines-business-careers

Job slump latest omen of recession

Economic contraction probably has already taken hold in some states, including California, analysts say.

By Peter G. Gosselin, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
January 5, 2008

WASHINGTON -- Hopes that the economy could shake off the sub-prime mortgage mess and dodge recession grew fainter Friday as the Labor Department reported that U.S. employers last month added the smallest number of new jobs in more than four years -- driving the unemployment rate to a two-year high of 5%.

Word that payrolls grew by only 18,000 jobs in December extended a string of negative economic news in recent weeks. Oil briefly touched $100 a barrel. Auto sales slipped to their lowest annual count in a decade. And an influential survey of U.S. manufacturing posted its weakest results in nearly five years.

Even exports, which are supposed to be one of the country's economic bright spots, stumbled. Sales of new homes and orders for big-ticket items fell short of analysts' expectations. Business equipment spending declined. And jobless benefit claims have been on the rise.[...]

"There's nothing heartwarming about this report," said Neal Soss, chief economist at Credit Suisse Group Inc. in New York. "It confirms what economists have been worried about, which is a broad-based economic slowdown."

Indeed, a number of analysts raised their odds of the economy's slipping into recession in the wake of the release of Friday's job report. Standard & Poor's Wyss, for example, said he now put the chance of recession at 50%, up from his previous estimate of 40%.

Baby Lee
01-06-2008, 09:13 AM
I am not against your idea at all, but being realistic as a 17 year old I could get a fake drivers license with picture so obviously it is not that hard to get fake documents. How do you realistically enforce this policy on companies who legitimately obtain the required documentation but was unable to prove it was valid? Remember we are talking at least 12 million people.
http://www.johnnygoodtimes.com/archives/stinking_badges.gif
I am McLovin'

ROFL ROFL

wazu
01-06-2008, 09:21 AM
Oh, don't worry... the Republicans are working hard at that!

We have a free market economy that grows and shrinks, but mostly grows. The only government entity with significant control of this is the Federal Reserve, which is independent. Which is why it makes no sense when any politician claims credit or assigns blame for the cycles of the free market. If we were a Communist nation, assigning blame for these cycles would make perfect sense.

banyon
01-06-2008, 09:40 AM
You democrats would be perfect if you didn't want to force your ideals and way of life on me.

Republicans NEVER do that.

banyon
01-06-2008, 09:45 AM
We can fix this a lot easier than people think, I bet. We create a new agency of some kind that exclusively enforces immigration law in hiring practices. They can send their inspectors and raiding parties out to every turkey processing plant and coffee-can factory in America. Whoever is responsible for knowingly hiring illegals, including through neglecting to require verifiable proof of citizenship, faces jail time. Put a sentencing guideline on it, 2-5 years.

This was pretty close to my position before. Since my move, though, I want to give it some time and see if I still feel that way.

I've already figured this much out though. I could probably call USCIS 20 times a day for people that we have IN CUSTODY and deport them. Town politics don't let us do that though because the biggest employer in town uses so many of them.

I almost feel like I need a federal law that imposes criminal penalties on us so that we would have an excuse come election time. Then we'd be able to do it.

banyon
01-06-2008, 09:48 AM
Interesting discussion going on here.

Ron Paul has the "Disneyland" solution for fixing illegal immigration. People love Disneyland. When I'm there, I never want to leave. But something you'll notice when you visit the world's greatest family park - when they want you to go home, nobody has to escort you out. They simply turn off the rides and turn out the lights.

They aren't here for the services. Otherwise, why wouldn't they keep going to Canada, or even Europe. They use them because it is there and convenient. Cutting off services would just mean that there would be a black market to replace the legitimate one.

Ugly Duck
01-06-2008, 09:59 AM
Cutting off services would just mean that there would be a black market to replace the legitimate one.

So you're saying that they'll improvise their own system to stay here? Seems some are thinking that they'll just pack up & go back to Mexico where they'll have shitty wages if they can find a job at all, live in poverty, have no access to health care or education & have dismal outlooks for their children. It kinda seems like the relative difference in prosperity between the two countries biases the argument towards your position....

banyon
01-06-2008, 10:12 AM
So you're saying that they'll improvise their own system to stay here? Seems some are thinking that they'll just pack up & go back to Mexico where they'll have shitty wages if they can find a job at all, live in poverty, have no access to health care or education & have dismal outlooks for their children. It kinda seems like the relative difference in prosperity between the two countries biases the argument towards your position....

What I'm saying is that they'll stay for the jobs and the wage differential even without government services. They can get medical services, etc. on the black market from the unscrupulous.

Without the jobs, though, they'll leave.

Hell, I moved out here for a job. If there wasn't one, I would've stayed in Lawrence.

mlyonsd
01-06-2008, 10:23 AM
We can fix this a lot easier than people think, I bet. We create a new agency of some kind that exclusively enforces immigration law in hiring practices. They can send their inspectors and raiding parties out to every turkey processing plant and coffee-can factory in America. Whoever is responsible for knowingly hiring illegals, including through neglecting to require verifiable proof of citizenship, faces jail time. Put a sentencing guideline on it, 2-5 years.

Bingo. There's your answer. The jobs are the issue. If I was having trouble feeding my family where I lived I'd move to where I could get it done.


The difficulty is coming up with a dependable way of verifying citizenship. But I have to figure somebody smart out there can come up with something. Maybe we should appoint Gore head of the citizenship task force.

I also think it's not realistic to think we're going to deport 12 million illegals. We need to come together on a way to incorporate at least part of the honest tax paying illegals. Especially the ones that have had kids born here and are citizens.

Cochise
01-06-2008, 10:23 AM
This was pretty close to my position before. Since my move, though, I want to give it some time and see if I still feel that way.

I've already figured this much out though. I could probably call USCIS 20 times a day for people that we have IN CUSTODY and deport them. Town politics don't let us do that though because the biggest employer in town uses so many of them.

I almost feel like I need a federal law that imposes criminal penalties on us so that we would have an excuse come election time. Then we'd be able to do it.

We would need to create two things, and those are the likelihood of getting caught, and consequences that aren't worth the risk.

As far as consequences go, just fines might be enough to take care of it. $50,000 for each? $100,000?

Maybe the poultry slaughterhouse in your area or whatever it is would be hesitant to have 20 illegals working on the line today if they knew an inspection would cost them $2 million.

Cochise
01-06-2008, 10:25 AM
I also think it's not realistic to think we're going to deport 12 million illegals. We need to come together on a way to incorporate at least part of the honest tax paying illegals. Especially the ones that have had kids born here and are citizens.

I think you answered your own reservation with this:


If I was having trouble feeding my family where I lived I'd move to where I could get it done.

BucEyedPea
01-06-2008, 10:26 AM
We have a free market economy that grows and shrinks, but mostly grows.
We actually don't have a free-market economy. SC used to back up free-enterprise economics at time but not as much nowadays. Plus we have central management to a degree via the Fed, a govt created monopoly. We have wage and price controls with minimum wage.

The only government entity with significant control of this is the Federal Reserve, which is independent. Which is why it makes no sense when any politician claims credit or assigns blame for the cycles of the free market. If we were a Communist nation, assigning blame for these cycles would make perfect sense.

I agree with ya' here. Booms and busts have much more to do with Federal Reserve policy which is one reason why we don't really have a free-market economy. It is managed via stimulation of markets with monetary policy. However, this does relate to govt borrowing too.

Bottom line, the thing that keeps most things going is the work of the American people which happens despite these market interventions.

banyon
01-06-2008, 10:47 AM
We would need to create two things, and those are the likelihood of getting caught, and consequences that aren't worth the risk.

As far as consequences go, just fines might be enough to take care of it. $50,000 for each? $100,000?

Maybe the poultry slaughterhouse in your area or whatever it is would be hesitant to have 20 illegals working on the line today if they knew an inspection would cost them $2 million.

20? No. More like ten thousand at the meat packing plants. (2 here and 2 in Garden city)

JohnnyV13
01-06-2008, 12:29 PM
We can fix this a lot easier than people think, I bet. We create a new agency of some kind that exclusively enforces immigration law in hiring practices. They can send their inspectors and raiding parties out to every turkey processing plant and coffee-can factory in America. Whoever is responsible for knowingly hiring illegals, including through neglecting to require verifiable proof of citizenship, faces jail time. Put a sentencing guideline on it, 2-5 years.


Arizona has implemented something like this, without creating a new agency (Arizona already has border patrol).

Effective Jan 1, Arizona has passed tough new requirements and penalties on employers with respect to citizenship status of their employees.

dirk digler
01-06-2008, 12:38 PM
We would need to create two things, and those are the likelihood of getting caught, and consequences that aren't worth the risk.

As far as consequences go, just fines might be enough to take care of it. $50,000 for each? $100,000?

Maybe the poultry slaughterhouse in your area or whatever it is would be hesitant to have 20 illegals working on the line today if they knew an inspection would cost them $2 million.

Bingo that is my solution. I have proposed this before but the fine should be $100,000 per illegal that is caught working for any company.

That would be such a huge deterrent that I would imagine that we would see a long line of people heading back into Mexico

Jenson71
01-06-2008, 01:38 PM
Arizona has implemented something like this, without creating a new agency (Arizona already has border patrol).

Effective Jan 1, Arizona has passed tough new requirements and penalties on employers with respect to citizenship status of their employees.

Do you think they'll be enforced? We've had laws like this for over 20 years. And who enforces them, if not an agency?

Mr. Flopnuts
01-06-2008, 04:36 PM
Republicans NEVER do that.


I'm not a republican either. It was kind of a dumb statement, since I have zero faith in EITHER party. I just like Democratic platforms better, the big government and big taxes is what sends me running from them.

banyon
01-06-2008, 06:36 PM
I'm not a republican either. It was kind of a dumb statement, since I have zero faith in EITHER party. I just like Democratic platforms better, the big government and big taxes is what sends me running from them.

Yeah, LOL. It was an easy shot. Just remember, Democrats want into your wallet and Republicans want into your bedroom.

Mr. Laz
01-06-2008, 09:54 PM
to hell with ....... i want a 12 million immigrant baton death march.

they will stop'em from coming back

BucEyedPea
01-07-2008, 08:18 PM
We have a free market economy that grows and shrinks, but mostly grows. The only government entity with significant control of this is the Federal Reserve, which is independent. Which is why it makes no sense when any politician claims credit or assigns blame for the cycles of the free market. If we were a Communist nation, assigning blame for these cycles would make perfect sense.
I wanted to put this up earlier but I had to find it again.

I think you'll like this chart Adam. Our economy does seem to grow despite having a Fed or without one. The Great Depression is an anomaly.
So a central bank is not vital to our economic survival or growth even.

I think what the Fed does do is related to inflation though. This graph doesn't show this—nor the large amount of debt incurred private and public which can haunt us later. I wrote an economist for this info who had an article on Mises called the Color of Money-Clifford Thies when we discussed the Fed earlier.

go bowe
01-07-2008, 09:04 PM
Exactly, when I heard the candidates make that statement I literally thought, WTF are they really this dumb?dumb like a fox (news)...

they know it can't be done, but it makes for catchy campaign rhetoric...