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View Full Version : Who from ChiefsPlanet sent this e-mail to Fat Gretz?


KCChiefsFan88
01-07-2008, 11:05 AM
If someone from here actually sent this you deserve rep supreme...

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2008/01/07/gretz_dipping_in_the_mailbag/

From Jeff: “In response to your maybe the fan base needs to be rebuilt garbage. Maybe you need to pull your head out of King Carl’s *&^##. I am tired of you putting the blame on everyone else except where it belongs. King Carl is to blame for the Chiefs lack of playoff appearances … the only thing that will turn the Chiefs around is sending your master packing. Then hopefully us real fans won’t have to be insulted by the crap you peck with your sausage fingers.”

Sausage fingers? Jeff, have you ever seen my fingers? I didn’t think so.

If you had actually read what I’ve written all year, you would understand that I’ve placed all the blame for this season on Peterson. The Chiefs went 4-12 because of lack of talent. Peterson is responsible for providing Herm Edwards talent. It’s not there and that’s his fault.

Now, maybe you can get the people at the home to read you my columns again. Obviously, you are having problems understanding the written English. Maybe they can back off the medications a little bit and it will assuage your angry soul.

Or maybe you should just have another order of sausage.

FAX
01-07-2008, 11:08 AM
If I had a hammer, I'd konk Gretz in the morning.

FAX

Gonzo
01-07-2008, 11:12 AM
If I had a hammer, I'd konk Gretz in the morning.

FAX



ROFL

unothadeal
01-07-2008, 11:14 AM
Now, maybe you can get the people at the home to read you my columns again.
Skip?

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 11:16 AM
He is wrong though. To date, Carl's biggest mistake has been the hiring of Herm Edwards. I don't buy the lack of talent BS, coach them up, damn. Isn't Herm making about $4million per year? WTF!? Earn your damn money Herm! Herm makes Gunther look like a genius.

StcChief
01-07-2008, 11:19 AM
the draft picks that failed, shoring up team with FAs that haven't been the best. Overall Carl is responsible.
Blame Herm/Solari go back and blame DV, Marty too.

KC Chiefs where old vets go to get one last big check.

Rooster
01-07-2008, 11:21 AM
Herm makes Gunther look like a genius.

ROFL ROFL I never thought of it that way but you are right. :banghead:

The Bad Guy
01-07-2008, 11:22 AM
What a supreme loser he is. And no, Blob, we can't see your fingers because they are typically buried inside your mouth, or it looks like your wrist fat is snacking on them. Keep attacking the fans that help pay your salary, scumbag.

Luzap
01-07-2008, 11:24 AM
If I had a hammer, I'd konk Gretz in the morning.

FAX

Why? What Gretz just said is 100% true.

People hear what they want to hear, and (apparantly) read what they want to read. This reporter has consistently given us the Chiefs point of view. If he didn't, we would never hear it and never have insight into their thinking. Most of the other 'reporters' in KC are too busy telling us what we should think (and what they want us to think) to give us both sides of the story.

And before anyone goes and tries to re-write history (again) ~ Gretz's working for the Chiefs came as a response to years of slander by some 'reporters' in the KC media (not the other way around).

Now I realize that many of you don't want to be confused by the facts. You're having too much fun being a bully and throwing epitaphs at our GM, but please, at least read what the people you slander actually write and say.

I could care less whether you personally like Carl or not, but being a bully isn't right on the playground, in the classroom, at the office, or in your home ~ it doesn't change just because you're on the internet.

Luz
then again, it does help me get my club level seats...

KCChiefsFan88
01-07-2008, 11:25 AM
ROFL ROFL I never thought of it that way but you are right. :banghead:

The Chiefs had some exciting games during Goonther's brief time as head coach, I'll give him that much. The 2000 game against the Lambs ranks as one of my favorite Chiefs games of all time.

Brock
01-07-2008, 11:26 AM
You're having too much fun being a bully and throwing epitaphs at our GM, but please, at least read what the people you slander actually write and say....

Do you even know what an epitaph is?

noa
01-07-2008, 11:27 AM
I definitely have problems understanding the written English.

Luzap
01-07-2008, 11:31 AM
Do you even know what an epitaph is?

Ooops ~ you got me. I meant to use the word epithet.

Luz
although the way everyone here talks about carl, epitaph is ironic, don't you think???...

FAX
01-07-2008, 11:31 AM
Why? What Gretz just said is 100% true.

People hear what they want to hear, and (apparantly) read what they want to read. This reporter has consistently given us the Chiefs point of view. If he didn't, we would never hear it and never have insight into their thinking. Most of the other 'reporters' in KC are too busy telling us what we should think (and what they want us to think) to give us both sides of the story.

And before anyone goes and tries to re-write history (again) ~ Gretz's working for the Chiefs came as a response to years of slander by some 'reporters' in the KC media (not the other way around).

Now I realize that many of you don't want to be confused by the facts. You're having too much fun being a bully and throwing epitaphs at our GM, but please, at least read what the people you slander actually write and say.

I could care less whether you personally like Carl or not, but being a bully isn't right on the playground, in the classroom, at the office, or in your home ~ it doesn't change just because you're on the internet.

Luz
then again, it does help me get my club level seats...

It isn't just Gretz, Mr. Luzap. If I had a hammer, I'd konk a lot of people in the morning. In the evening, too.

Nevertheless, my heartburn with Gretz has to do with this whole, "Chiefs fans suck" theme. The Great Minds at One Arrowhead Drive and their cohorts seem to believe that a football fan should pay their money and keep their mouths shut. I disagree with that premise.

I'm all for you getting your club level seating. I'm not for you watching a franchise that gains six first downs a season then telling the fans that they don't understand the game.

FAX

Simply Red
01-07-2008, 11:33 AM
It's jspchief.

Brock
01-07-2008, 11:36 AM
Ooops ~ you got me. I meant to use the word epithet.

Luz
although the way everyone here talks about carl, epitaph is ironic, don't you think???...

Irony is not using the proper word when lecturing others about not understanding what they read.

Cochise
01-07-2008, 11:37 AM
I'll email something like this to Bob, if I can find out what his email address is.


In the past 15 years, the Chiefs have:

0 Super Bowl appearances
0 playoff wins
3 division titles
3 first-round exists

All three of our division opponents have made Super Bowl appearances.

8 of the 16 current AFC teams (two of them expansion teams) have made Super Bowl appearances. 11 of the 16 current NFC teams have made Super Bowl appearances.

Those teams that have not appeared in a Super Bowl in 15 years: Bengals, Bills, Browns, Cardinals, Dolphins, Jaguars, Jets, Lions, Redskins, Saints, Texans, Vikings, 49ers (they did it the year before)... and the Chiefs. Illustrious company, indeed.

Carl's record with Marty was 101-58-1. Carl's record without Marty is 73-71.

So... why is Carl still entitled to his job?

FAX
01-07-2008, 11:38 AM
It's epithetic, Mr. Cochise.

FAX

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 11:39 AM
The "Casual Fan" is much easier to please.

FAX
01-07-2008, 11:48 AM
The "Casual Fan" is much easier to please.

I was a business consultant before I went nuts and started hammering people at all times of the day and night, Mr. HemiEd. Anyway, I learned that one of the ways that you can tell if a business has problems is to listen to how the employees refer to customers. In shorthand, if the customers are habitually demeaned, that business has issues, peep.

The Chiefs FO culture includes talking down to the fans until things go to hell - at which time they blow smoke up the fans' patoots. Herm says we have "common eyes". Gretz says we need "rebuilt". Mitch makes us chant stupid cheers in slow motion like a gang of lobotomy recipients. Carl says he can tell a "real fan" based on the weight of their wallet.

I say, hammer these bastards.

FAX

Lonewolf Ed
01-07-2008, 11:48 AM
If I had a hammer, I'd konk Gretz in the morning.

FAX

I have a nice sledge I am not using...

Phobia
01-07-2008, 12:03 PM
No, we can't comprehend the written English word, Bob. We're too frick'n angry at all the condescending crap rolling off your keyboard to even complete the reading of your columns.

You're not a comedian responding to heckling fans in the audience, Mr. Gretz. You're a journalist employed by the Chiefs to inform your audience about the Chiefs. This battle of words is highly unbecoming of a so-called professional. That goes for Mr. Dawes as well. It would be one thing if you were trading insults with people on a message board. It's completely another to use your Chiefs endorsed pulpit to trash the very people who are responsible for your position in the first place.

Scorp
01-07-2008, 12:06 PM
Holy sh!T..........No joke I actually sent that. I also sent about 5 others. LOL thats funny.

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 12:06 PM
I was a business consultant before I went nuts and started hammering people at all times of the day and night, Mr. HemiEd. Anyway, I learned that one of the ways that you can tell if a business has problems is to listen to how the employees refer to customers. In shorthand, if the customers are habitually demeaned, that business has issues, peep.

The Chiefs FO culture includes talking down to the fans until things go to hell - at which time they blow smoke up the fans' patoots. Herm says we have "common eyes". Gretz says we need "rebuilt". Mitch makes us chant stupid cheers in slow motion like a gang of lobotomy recipients. Carl says he can tell a "real fan" based on the weight of their wallet.

I say, hammer these bastards.

FAX
Yep, the fans are getting to hard to please. The "Same Old Shit" aint working as well anymore. Instead of trying something new, they just have bad fans.

One thought keeps sticking in my head. Someone on here posted about a fan at the game, in frustration of watching Brodie play, said we need a new quarterback.

That is the type fan the Chiefs want, the Casual fan that has no clue. The Chief's shuffling game won't grow old to them for a while.

stonedstooge
01-07-2008, 12:10 PM
Considering the number of first downs the team made this year, I hope the First Down for Down's Syndrome kids weren't planning on much for new equipment or whatever they use the monies for. They probably ended up having to pay into the Chiefs organization instead of receiving money. What little money they did get would be best used on help hiring a new head coach. A better investment for their future.

Luzap
01-07-2008, 12:13 PM
It isn't just Gretz, Mr. Luzap. If I had a hammer, I'd konk a lot of people in the morning. In the evening, too.

Nevertheless, my heartburn with Gretz has to do with this whole, "Chiefs fans suck" theme. The Great Minds at One Arrowhead Drive and their cohorts seem to believe that a football fan should pay their money and keep their mouths shut. I disagree with that premise.

I'm all for you getting your club level seating. I'm not for you watching a franchise that gains six first downs a season then telling the fans that they don't understand the game.

FAX

Fax,

With all due respect, Gretz doesn't have a Chiefs Fans Suck theme. There are people in the media that desperately want you to think he does, and those same people are having orgasms because they think their agenda they've been pushing for over a decade is finally taking hold. Remember ~ the media (for the most part) don't care about the Chiefs. They care about their ratings ~ period.

Again, if you actually read what Gretz writes, he has addressed the vocal minority, or fanatical fringe (my words). Jason Whitlock has done everything he can to court this fanatical fringe. He has a personal vendetta against Carl that goes back over a decade since Carl barred him from the Chiefs locker room. This isn't about Carl's performance as GM, it's about one reporters ego and his manipulation of an excitable minority of the fan base.

Manipulation you say? Yes, manipulation. A good example is Carl's 'Five Year Plan.' This is a myth. It was totally made up by Whitlock. Yet he has repeated this lie over and over and over again enough times that he knows certain personality types will now accept it as gospel. Do you honestly think this is the only lie Jason has fabricated? And do you think that other media personalities (seeing Jason's success) won't adopt the same strategy of inciting gullible fans (can you say talk radio)?

Did anyone even stop to wonder why Gretz would publish the letter in this thread starter? It's because to most fans, this guy's letter makes him look like the mindless idiot he is. Now to the fanatical fringe, he looks like a hero.

I don't get frustrated at Carl, Whitlock, Gretz, or anyone else. I'll decide whether to respect them and then move on. The only thing that truly frustrates me are people that don't think for themselves. Our schools don't teach us how to think and unless someone is smart enough to start themselves down the path of serious personal growth, most people will never learn.

The bottom line is that most fans like Gretz's reporting (look at his article's ratings on the Chiefs website). Most fans don't think we'll never win a championship with Carl, and most fans don't want his head on a platter.

Only a vocal minority spout these ravings ~ ravings that an egotistical reporter swore over ten years ago that he would use the power of the pen to achieve.

Luz
when He said, 'there will be poor amongst us always' do you really think he was only talking about money???...

The Bad Guy
01-07-2008, 12:18 PM
Why? What Gretz just said is 100% true.

People hear what they want to hear, and (apparantly) read what they want to read. This reporter has consistently given us the Chiefs point of view. If he didn't, we would never hear it and never have insight into their thinking. Most of the other 'reporters' in KC are too busy telling us what we should think (and what they want us to think) to give us both sides of the story.

And before anyone goes and tries to re-write history (again) ~ Gretz's working for the Chiefs came as a response to years of slander by some 'reporters' in the KC media (not the other way around).

Now I realize that many of you don't want to be confused by the facts. You're having too much fun being a bully and throwing epitaphs at our GM, but please, at least read what the people you slander actually write and say.

I could care less whether you personally like Carl or not, but being a bully isn't right on the playground, in the classroom, at the office, or in your home ~ it doesn't change just because you're on the internet.

Luz
then again, it does help me get my club level seats...

Go ahead and tell me again how the Chiefs have one of the highest winning percentages over the last 10 years so I can continue to laugh at you.

Being a pompous ass on a message board isn't right either. But you seem to have it mastered.

Scorp
01-07-2008, 12:18 PM
Fax,

With all due respect, Gretz doesn't have a Chiefs Fans Suck theme. There are people in the media that desperately want you to think he does, and those same people are having orgasms because they think their agenda they've been pushing for over a decade is finally taking hold. Remember ~ the media (for the most part) don't care about the Chiefs. They care about their ratings ~ period.

Again, if you actually read what Gretz writes, he has addressed the vocal minority, or fanatical fringe (my words). Jason Whitlock has done everything he can to court this fanatical fringe. He has a personal vendetta against Carl that goes back over a decade since Carl barred him from the Chiefs locker room. This isn't about Carl's performance as GM, it's about one reporters ego and his manipulation of an excitable minority of the fan base.

Manipulation you say? Yes, manipulation. A good example is Carl's 'Five Year Plan.' This is a myth. It was totally made up by Whitlock. Yet he has repeated this lie over and over and over again enough times that he knows certain personality types will now accept it as gospel. Do you honestly think this is the only lie Jason has fabricated? And do you think that other media personalities (seeing Jason's success) won't adopt the same strategy of inciting gullible fans (can you say talk radio)?

Did anyone even stop to wonder why Gretz would publish the letter in this thread starter? It's because to most fans, this guy's letter makes him look like the mindless idiot he is. Now to the fanatical fringe, he looks like a hero.

I don't get frustrated at Carl, Whitlock, Gretz, or anyone else. I'll decide whether to respect them and then move on. The only thing that truly frustrates me are people that don't think for themselves. Our schools don't teach us how to think and unless someone is smart enough to start themselves down the path of serious personal growth, most people will never learn.

The bottom line is that most fans like Gretz's reporting (look at his article's ratings on the Chiefs website). Most fans don't think we'll never win a championship with Carl, and most fans don't want his head on a platter.

Only a vocal minority spout these ravings ~ ravings that an egotistical reporter swore over ten years ago that he would use the power of the pen to achieve.

Luz
when He said, 'there will be poor amongst us always' do you really think he was only talking about money???...


You can think whatever you want about me, but when Gretz writes something like that blaming the fans he gets what he deserves. I think you are the minority and most fans feel what I wrote.

Cochise
01-07-2008, 12:18 PM
Is it bgretz@susqkc.com?

Simply Red
01-07-2008, 12:20 PM
No, we can't comprehend the written English word, Bob. We're too frick'n angry at all the condescending crap rolling off your keyboard to even complete the reading of your columns.

You're not a comedian responding to heckling fans in the audience, Mr. Gretz. You're a journalist employed by the Chiefs to inform your audience about the Chiefs. This battle of words is highly unbecoming of a so-called professional. That goes for Mr. Dawes as well. It would be one thing if you were trading insults with people on a message board. It's completely another to use your Chiefs endorsed pulpit to trash the very people who are responsible for your position in the first place.
Da Ruckus! Bravo!

Chiefnj2
01-07-2008, 12:22 PM
I like the fact that Gretz felt it necessary to defend his bratwurst-like fingers.

Luzap
01-07-2008, 12:22 PM
You can think whatever you want about me, but when Gretz writes something like that blaming the fans he gets what he deserves. I think you are the minority and most fans feel what I wrote.

Not that it really makes any difference, but so that you'll know, I wrote what I wrote before you identified yourself as the author of that letter.

As for who's in the minority, don't let facts get in your way.

Luz
besides, i want my clud level seats... :)_

cookster50
01-07-2008, 12:23 PM
Fax,

With all due respect, Gretz doesn't have a Chiefs Fans Suck theme. There are people in the media that desperately want you to think he does, and those same people are having orgasms because they think their agenda they've been pushing for over a decade is finally taking hold. Remember ~ the media (for the most part) don't care about the Chiefs. They care about their ratings ~ period.


Is Luzap Gretz?

stonedstooge
01-07-2008, 12:26 PM
Luzap if you are indeed from Dallas Texas as indicated on your posts and are ignorant enough to spend the money it takes to get to K.C. to watch this team, you deserve those great seats you keep on harping about. Personally I wouldn't give $10 for any seat to watch this team if it continues down its road of mediocracy with someone who rode the little bus to school running the show.

Simply Red
01-07-2008, 12:26 PM
I like the fact that Gretz felt it necessary to defend his bratwurst-like fingers.
heh, me too. lol'd

Simply Red
01-07-2008, 12:27 PM
Is Luzap Gretz?
Yes,

I don't know,

Maybe.

The Bad Guy
01-07-2008, 12:28 PM
Luzap if you are indeed from Dallas Texas as indicated on your posts and are ignorant enough to spend the money it takes to get to K.C. to watch this team, you deserve those great seats you keep on harping about. Personally I wouldn't give $10 for any seat to watch this team if it continues down its road of mediocracy with someone who rode the little bus to school running the show.

It's easy to spend money when you scam it out of others.

morphius
01-07-2008, 12:30 PM
What's great is that he is allowed to pick out the weakest reply, agree that he blames Carl now, then attack the person who replied with insults, totally ignoring the whole issue about him talking about needing a fan overhaul. Genious I tell ya.

Scorp
01-07-2008, 12:32 PM
What's great is that he is allowed to pick out the weakest reply, agree that he blames Carl now, then attack the person who replied with insults, totally ignoring the whole issue about him talking about needing a fan overhaul. Genious I tell ya.


Hey I aint weak. :cuss:

KCChiefsFan88
01-07-2008, 12:32 PM
Again, if you actually read what Gretz writes, he has addressed the vocal minority, or fanatical fringe (my words). Jason Whitlock has done everything he can to court this fanatical fringe. He has a personal vendetta against Carl that goes back over a decade since Carl barred him from the Chiefs locker room. This isn't about Carl's performance as GM, it's about one reporters ego and his manipulation of an excitable minority of the fan base.


Have you ever seen how the media in other markets cover their respective football teams? Whitlock and the KC media are child's play compared to these markets... and most of these markets have football teams that have accomplished a lot more, more recently than Dictator Carl's Chiefs have.

The truth is it is Dictator Carl and his propaganda machine who want to spin any criticism as unjustified hatred towards the Dictator. Whitlock and the few others in the local media who have been consistently critical of the Dictator have stated the facts... and the facts are the Chiefs have the third longest drought in the NFL currently without a playoff win, they are the only team in the AFC West during Dictator Carl's tenure that has not won an AFC Championship and represented the conference in the Super Bowl, etc.

These are blatant facts that cannot be disputed no matter how hard Dictator Carl, his propaganda machine or brainwashed zombies such as yourself might try to attack the messenger of these facts.

ChiTown
01-07-2008, 12:38 PM
[QUOTE=KCChiefsfan88]Have you ever seen how the media in other markets cover their respective football teams? Whitlock and the KC media are child's play compared to these markets... and most of these markets have football teams that have accomplished a lot more, more recently than Dictator Carl's Chiefs have.
/QUOTE]


That is SO, SO true.

KC media lobs absolute softballs to it's sports figures and coaches by comparison of other major markets. When I lived in Chicago, the media were absolutely relentless with Ditka and the Bears ('90-92 range). It was combative on a daily basis.

dirk digler
01-07-2008, 12:40 PM
The bottom line is that most fans like Gretz's reporting (look at his article's ratings on the Chiefs website). Most fans don't think we'll never win a championship with Carl, and most fans don't want his head on a platter.

Only a vocal minority spout these ravings ~ ravings that an egotistical reporter swore over ten years ago that he would use the power of the pen to achieve.


LMAO

I would like to know how you think the majority of fans believe Carl will win a SB after failing for 20 years?

I bet you couldn't find 100 Chiefs fans to back that claim up.

morphius
01-07-2008, 12:40 PM
Hey I aint weak. :cuss:
Was that your best reply? Seriously, if you wanted to have an effect why not say something about showing the article to a bunch of season ticket friends, and them agreeing with him and that they had all decided to drop their season tickets. You don't hurt him by insulting his weight, you hurt him by costing Carl money...

Just my thought, though I'm sure neither will have any effect.

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 12:42 PM
Manipulation you say? Yes, manipulation. A good example is Carl's 'Five Year Plan.' This is a myth. It was totally made up by Whitlock.

I call Bullshit. I remember hearing the plan referenced in the Carl introduction press conference. I can remember Carl extoling the virtues of said plan, to get us to the SB during his introduction.

Don't get me wrong, I think he has tried everything he can possibly think of to get it done.

Hired a respectable winning coach, Marty.
Trading for Montana and Marcus Allen was supposed to get the team over the top at the 5 year mark.
Bringing DV out of retirement, when the team had hit rock bottom in character.
But the Herm Edwards thing is a **** up.

el borracho
01-07-2008, 12:44 PM
Scorp: Recent polls have shown that a fifth of the Chiefs fan base can't locate Carl and Herm's "plan." Why do you think this is?

Gretz: I personally believe that chiefsplanet chiefsfans are unable to do so because some people out there in our fanbase don't have "plans" and that I believe that our education, like, such as the "five year plan" and "the written English" and everything, like, such as, and I believe that they should... our chiefsfans over here in the chiefsplanet should help the chiefsfans, or should help Carl, it should help Herm and "the written English" so we will be able to build up our future.

Scorp
01-07-2008, 12:53 PM
Screw you guys I am taking my ball and going home.

You guys are just hatin.

FAX
01-07-2008, 12:53 PM
Fax,

With all due respect, Gretz doesn't have a Chiefs Fans Suck theme. There are people in the media that desperately want you to think he does, and those same people are having orgasms because they think their agenda they've been pushing for over a decade is finally taking hold. Remember ~ the media (for the most part) don't care about the Chiefs. They care about their ratings ~ period.

Again, if you actually read what Gretz writes, he has addressed the vocal minority, or fanatical fringe (my words). Jason Whitlock has done everything he can to court this fanatical fringe. He has a personal vendetta against Carl that goes back over a decade since Carl barred him from the Chiefs locker room. This isn't about Carl's performance as GM, it's about one reporters ego and his manipulation of an excitable minority of the fan base.

Manipulation you say? Yes, manipulation. A good example is Carl's 'Five Year Plan.' This is a myth. It was totally made up by Whitlock. Yet he has repeated this lie over and over and over again enough times that he knows certain personality types will now accept it as gospel. Do you honestly think this is the only lie Jason has fabricated? And do you think that other media personalities (seeing Jason's success) won't adopt the same strategy of inciting gullible fans (can you say talk radio)?

Did anyone even stop to wonder why Gretz would publish the letter in this thread starter? It's because to most fans, this guy's letter makes him look like the mindless idiot he is. Now to the fanatical fringe, he looks like a hero.

I don't get frustrated at Carl, Whitlock, Gretz, or anyone else. I'll decide whether to respect them and then move on. The only thing that truly frustrates me are people that don't think for themselves. Our schools don't teach us how to think and unless someone is smart enough to start themselves down the path of serious personal growth, most people will never learn.

The bottom line is that most fans like Gretz's reporting (look at his article's ratings on the Chiefs website). Most fans don't think we'll never win a championship with Carl, and most fans don't want his head on a platter.

Only a vocal minority spout these ravings ~ ravings that an egotistical reporter swore over ten years ago that he would use the power of the pen to achieve.

Luz
when He said, 'there will be poor amongst us always' do you really think he was only talking about money???...

Great post, Mr. Luzap. Although I can't recall the last time I was accused of not thinking for myself. This may, in fact, be a first.

Personally, I pay little attention to Whitlock. His motivations, as you say, are transparent. As for Gretz, however, was it not Gretz who suggested that the fan base might use some "rebuilding"? In other words, if you're not interested in the Chiefs merely as an intertaining diversion from real life, consider street walking. On the heels of a 4 and 12 season, that is not only arrogant, it's insultingly insolent to a group of caring fans who have paid good money for many years in the hope that, eventually, a competitive team would take the field. Are the majority of fans willing to agree with whatever drivel the Chiefs' PR machine generates out of loyalty? Perhaps. Does that mean that a person who disagrees with the Chiefs' approach to public relations and fan relations is on the "fringe"? Only if you're counting heads.

It's very simple when you boil it down. The Kansas City Chiefs organization has, for over four decades, demonstrated either the unwillingness or the inability to put together a team that can compete in post-season. Either way, your choice as a fan is whether or not you spend money to support that result and/or call for a change in leadership. Frankly, it wouldn't make any difference if the Chiefs played football or made bagels. If you're interested in the Super Bowl, the inability to compete is going to ultimately lead to fan dissatisfaction. If that's a "fringe mentality" at this point, so be it.

Then, of course, there is the entire argument that Carl (for example) is actually doing a good job for the Hunts who, after all, pay his salary. No one is going to argue that Carl has not done a good job generating profits while failing year after year to bring post-season success. But, are these incompatible goals? I think not.

For my part, I think that new FO leadership is in order. Not because of what Whitlock might or might not say, but because the priorities of the franchise appear to be inconsistent with my goals as a fan. But I'm just a fan and a part of a "fringe minority" who cares less about Gretz's opinions than I do about seeing this organization take its place among the elite franchises in the NFL.

FAX

Luzap
01-07-2008, 12:55 PM
LMAO

I would like to know how you think the majority of fans believe Carl will win a SB after failing for 20 years?

I bet you couldn't find 100 Chiefs fans to back that claim up.

Uhh... you'd lose.

There are thousands of fans that blame any number of things on the Chiefs not winning it all. Including John Elway and the officiating in that play-off game, Payton Manning, bad luck, bad coaching, bad hair, etc.

Personally I admire Carl, but realize he doesn't have a perfect score. Most of the fanatical fringe, however, just use him as a scapegoat because they've been convinced it's ok to blame him for everything.

I don't expect anyone to answer this out loud, but I have a serious question for all of you...

Doesn't it feel awkward knowing that you're fulfilling the agenda of a journalist that cares nothing for the Chiefs? A Journalist that vowed ten years ago to sway fans to his purpose?

Luz
i think i'm done trying to enlighten... i'm just going to enjoy my club seats ROFL

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Screw you guys I am taking my ball and going home.

You guys are just hatin.
ROFL Nice.

Halfcan
01-07-2008, 12:57 PM
Jack Harry absolutely shreaded King Carl last night-I wonder if Blob Gretz will come to his defense again.

I think he has a man crush on Carl.

Chiefnj2
01-07-2008, 12:58 PM
i'm just going to enjoy my club seats ROFL

You won't be enjoying it very much when Gretz sits next to you and steals your nachos with his sausage like fingers.

Luzap
01-07-2008, 01:00 PM
I call Bullshit. I remember hearing the plan referenced in the Carl introduction press conference. I can remember Carl extoling the virtues of said plan, to get us to the SB during his introduction.

Don't get me wrong, I think he has tried everything he can possibly think of to get it done.

Hired a respectable winning coach, Marty.
Trading for Montana and Marcus Allen was supposed to get the team over the top at the 5 year mark.
Bringing DV out of retirement, when the team had hit rock bottom in character.
But the Herm Edwards thing is a **** up.

HemiEd,

I know it may seem startling, and hopefully helps make my point, but it is definitly true.

The five year plan is media fabrication. The Chiefs actually addressed this several years ago but (naturally) received no sympathy from the press.

Luz
pause for thought, isn't it???...

smittysbar
01-07-2008, 01:03 PM
Why? What Gretz just said is 100% true.

People hear what they want to hear, and (apparantly) read what they want to read. This reporter has consistently given us the Chiefs point of view. If he didn't, we would never hear it and never have insight into their thinking. Most of the other 'reporters' in KC are too busy telling us what we should think (and what they want us to think) to give us both sides of the story.

And before anyone goes and tries to re-write history (again) ~ Gretz's working for the Chiefs came as a response to years of slander by some 'reporters' in the KC media (not the other way around).

Now I realize that many of you don't want to be confused by the facts. You're having too much fun being a bully and throwing epitaphs at our GM, but please, at least read what the people you slander actually write and say.

I could care less whether you personally like Carl or not, but being a bully isn't right on the playground, in the classroom, at the office, or in your home ~ it doesn't change just because you're on the internet.

Luz
then again, it does help me get my club level seats...

Club Level.............Kinda figures, you guys can't even get your ass's up and scream on third down, much less when you are getting ripped off by the product they have provided. You are the real fan!

ChiTown
01-07-2008, 01:07 PM
Luz
i think i'm done trying to enlighten... i'm just going to enjoy my club seats ROFL

Well, we appreciate your insight, seriously. It's nice to have a man of your magnitude grace us with your "geeneeus".

The Bad Guy
01-07-2008, 01:12 PM
Doesn't it feel awkward knowing that you're fulfilling the agenda of a journalist that cares nothing for the Chiefs? A Journalist that vowed ten years ago to sway fans to his purpose?

Luz
i think i'm done trying to enlighten... i'm just going to enjoy my club seats ROFL

Why do I have to be swayed? You must think all Chief fans allow themselves to be dictated by what they read in the print. You act like Chiefs fans don't watch the games on Sunday, haven't suffered through Carl's 19 years, and just rely on the press to get their information.

You act like we are just zombies and we can be manipulated.

We have our own brains. We can make our own assumptions about this team by merely observing. I can avoid the media and form my own opinions.

It's sad that you can just blindly follow something.

Pushead2
01-07-2008, 01:17 PM
I smell a rat with Luzap.....

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 01:19 PM
HemiEd,

I know it may seem startling, and hopefully helps make my point, but it is definitly true.

The five year plan is media fabrication. The Chiefs actually addressed this several years ago but (naturally) received no sympathy from the press.

Luz
pause for thought, isn't it???...

Luz, do you remember the press conference for yourself? I do, it was a big deal after suffering through almost two decades of futility. If it was a media fabrication, they did it the day of the Carl introduction. I was living in Wichita at the time, so we were limited to what the local media carried. Usually a short blip on the news and small article in the paper. But in the late 80s, I had ESPN and they carried it. I truly do remember Carl standing up there in the introduction.

See, there are a couple reasons why it stuck with me. Just fielding a competitive team sounded good to me at the time, but this new guy was talking SB in 5 years!
I remember being upset when he traded for Joe Montana and Marcus Allen, thinking these are to help him meet his commitment to the 5 years, but these guys aren't Chiefs. Long term the moves suck!

Sorry, but until someone shows me a video of Carls introduction speech and proves me wrong, I will go with my memory.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
01-07-2008, 01:19 PM
I don't read Jason's articles
I don't listen to KC sports radio
I couldn't recognize Keitzman in a police line-up without a glowing arrow pointing at him.

However, I adamantly believe Carl, Herm, the rest of the coaching staff and 99% of the Chiefs PR people need to go yesterday.

Carl has failed as a GM.
Herm has failed as a coach

Period.


*(I'll cut Len Dawson some slack . . . the rest of the Chiefs PR hacks (Gretz, Rufus, et al.) need to be shown the door within milliseconds of Carl and Co.)

ChiTown
01-07-2008, 01:22 PM
I don't read Jason's articles
I don't listen to KC sports radio
I couldn't recognize Keitzman in a police line-up without a glowing arrow pointing at him.

However, I adamantly believe Carl, Herm, the rest of the coaching staff and 99% of the Chiefs PR people need to go yesterday.

Carl has failed as a GM.
Herm has failed as a coach

Period.


*(I'll cut Len Dawson some slack . . . the rest of the Chiefs PR hacks (Gretz, Rufus, et al.) need to be shown the door within milliseconds of Carl and Co.)

"Your stupid and uniformed!"

Luzap
enjoying my post season club seats.......

morphius
01-07-2008, 01:26 PM
I smell a rat with Luzap.....
Luz was one of the original mods here.

ChiefsFan4Life
01-07-2008, 01:31 PM
Welcome to the ChiefsPlanet Username lookup!

Please enter the username:

Luzap

Please wait, server is performing lookup......
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Username Luzap is located at gretz.kcchiefs.com

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
01-07-2008, 01:31 PM
I found out something the other day.

You can't put a moderator on ignore.

You can put a moderator on CPIggy.

I really used to like Luzap's takes on the Chiefs. Even if he's being facetious with his "club seats" mantra, it's still become annoying enough to make me iggy him. I'm hoping he'll get over it eventually.

I mean, hell, if Carl and Co finally got to a homer like me, then things really <b>have</b> hit rock bottom. I almost miss the early 80s because at least then, I realized we had no players and no chance so it was easier to accept the fact we stunk. Now, we have some players but can't coach our way out of a paper bag with someone holding one end open for us . . . that's what hurts. And to realize we have done nothing to prepare for loss of the older players (both recently retired and coming soon), it just makes watching this train wreck even more painful.

I blame the coaches and the GM more than the players. Hell, even bad players normally do their best - it's just not that good. It's up to the GM to get good players and it's up to the coaches to make them great players. I'm not seeing any improvement anywhere, offense OR defense. That stinks!

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 01:33 PM
"Your stupid and uniformed!"

Luzap
enjoying my post season club seats.......
ROFL

FAX
01-07-2008, 01:33 PM
Personally, I'm willing to be convinced that Carl and Herm really know what they're doing, now have a workable plan in place, and can get this thing done.

As a fan, I would happily listen to any reasonable evidence (as many other Planeteers would, I'm sure) that demonstrates they have the ability to get us into the playoffs with a team that can win a post-season game or two.

Were I in a position to do it, I would suggest to Gretz that, rather than wasting time accusing Chiefs fans of illiteracy, he consider actually writing something in English that can be actually read that actually gives us reason to actually hope "The Plan" will actually work.

FAX

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 01:35 PM
II mean, hell, if Carl and Co finally got to a homer like me, then things really <b>have</b> hit rock bottom. I almost miss the early 80s because at least then, I realized we had no players and no chance so it was easier to accept the fact we stunk. Now, we have some players but can't coach our way out of a paper bag with someone holding one end open for us . . . that's what hurts. And to realize we have done nothing to prepare for loss of the older players (both recently retired and coming soon), it just makes watching this train wreck even more painful.

I blame the coaches and the GM more than the players. Hell, even bad players normally do their best - it's just not that good. It's up to the GM to get good players and it's up to the coaches to make them great players. I'm not seeing any improvement anywhere, offense OR defense. That stinks!

This is my nomination for post of the month.

Skip Towne
01-07-2008, 01:36 PM
"Your stupid and uniformed!"

Luzap
enjoying my post season club seats.......
And classless and deranged.

KC Kings
01-07-2008, 01:41 PM
He is wrong though. To date, Carl's biggest mistake has been the hiring of Herm Edwards. I don't buy the lack of talent BS, coach them up, damn. Isn't Herm making about $4million per year? WTF!? Earn your damn money Herm! Herm makes Gunther look like a genius.

We heard this same crap when they brought in Vermiel and Trent Green.
Two years is not enough time to pass judgment. Especially considering that Herm was not secretive about putting all of the emphasis on beefing up the defense, and leaving the Offense on the back burner for now.

Who could come in a coach the Chiefs this year to a winning season with injuries to the starting QB, backup QB, starting RB, backup RB, starting Wr, and starting left tackle?

And you call Gunther a genius compare to Herm? Did you watch any games in 2000? Remember starting at 5-3 and getting our hopes up, then losing 5 in a row to end all play-off hopes? I remember driving to Atlanta on Christmas Eve of 2000, and the of all of the characteristic I recall about Gunther genius is not one of them. I'd like to see what Gunther could have done with the 07 team, mediocre and injury plagued as they were.

Next you'll be joining the ranks of insane with the "Carl doesn't want to win" theory, because everybody knows that Carl only cares about money. Nevermind the fact that winning games and going to Superbowl is a pretty easy way to generate a lot of revenue. Nope, Carl like a challenge and he tries to walk the narrow threshold between winning enough to sell out every week, but not winning enough to go to the big game. That is no easy feat considering the Chiefs had the 2nd best record of any team for the decade of the 90's. Carl jinked Stoyanovich, he made Marty start Grbac in the play-offs, it all Carls fault.

morphius
01-07-2008, 01:44 PM
I found out something the other day.

You can't put a moderator on ignore.



Wow, I didn't think my posts were that bad. I mean, I know they were bad, just not THAT bad.

Damn, I suck.

ChiTown
01-07-2008, 01:46 PM
Wow, I didn't think my posts were that bad. I mean, I know they were bad, just not THAT bad.

Damn, I suck.

We've been s l o w l y trying to break the news to you since August 2000 - that indeed, you do suck. I'm glad it's finally taking..........

KC Kings
01-07-2008, 01:46 PM
Why do I have to be swayed? You must think all Chief fans allow themselves to be dictated by what they read in the print. You act like Chiefs fans don't watch the games on Sunday and just rely on the press to get their information.

You act like we are just zombies and we can be manipulated.




You were saying...?

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/421011.html

The fans who once packed Arrowhead — there were thousands of empty seats at the Chiefs’ last home game against Tennessee — aren’t the only ones bailing on the team these days.

The Chiefs’ viewing audience is vanishing as well.

After posting a season-low 27.4 Nielsen rating for the Titans’ game, the Chiefs really bottomed out in the ratings for the Lions game last Sunday — a woeful 24.5 rating.

Obviously, the team’s horrible record factors greatly into the low rating. So does the Chiefs’ incredibly dull style of play, though Sunday’s game was one of the more entertaining of the season.

At any rate, the TV rating for the Detroit game was the lowest in six years, dating all the way to Nov. 11, 2001, when the Chiefs pulled in just a 20.7 rating for a game against the New York Jets. The Chiefs lost that game 27-7.

The 2001 season was the Chiefs’ first under head coach Dick Vermeil. The Chiefs were 2-6 when they played the Jets that year but wound up winning three of their last four games and finished the season at 6-10.

The Chiefs normally average in the low 30s for Nielsen ratings and had a season high of 34.8 against the Raiders in October

Luzap
01-07-2008, 01:49 PM
Great post, Mr. Luzap. Although I can't recall the last time I was accused of not thinking for myself. This may, in fact, be a first.

Personally, I pay little attention to Whitlock. His motivations, as you say, are transparent. As for Gretz, however, was it not Gretz who suggested that the fan base might use some "rebuilding"? In other words, if you're not interested in the Chiefs merely as an intertaining diversion from real life, consider street walking. On the heels of a 4 and 12 season, that is not only arrogant, it's insultingly insolent to a group of caring fans who have paid good money for many years in the hope that, eventually, a competitive team would take the field. Are the majority of fans willing to agree with whatever drivel the Chiefs' PR machine generates out of loyalty? Perhaps. Does that mean that a person who disagrees with the Chiefs' approach to public relations and fan relations is on the "fringe"? Only if you're counting heads.

It's very simple when you boil it down. The Kansas City Chiefs organization has, for over four decades, demonstrated either the unwillingness or the inability to put together a team that can compete in post-season. Either way, your choice as a fan is whether or not you spend money to support that result and/or call for a change in leadership. Frankly, it wouldn't make any difference if the Chiefs played football or made bagels. If you're interested in the Super Bowl, the inability to compete is going to ultimately lead to fan dissatisfaction. If that's a "fringe mentality" at this point, so be it.

Then, of course, there is the entire argument that Carl (for example) is actually doing a good job for the Hunts who, after all, pay his salary. No one is going to argue that Carl has not done a good job generating profits while failing year after year to bring post-season success. But, are these incompatible goals? I think not.

For my part, I think that new FO leadership is in order. Not because of what Whitlock might or might not say, but because the priorities of the franchise appear to be inconsistent with my goals as a fan. But I'm just a fan and a part of a "fringe minority" who cares less about Gretz's opinions than I do about seeing this organization take its place among the elite franchises in the NFL.

FAX

Fax, let me return the compliment ~ this too was a great post.

I don't think I read Gretz the same way you do. I think it's the old 'is that taken out of context' arguement. IMO, he sometimes gets way too 'responsive' to other media slander rather than just sticking with a theme. If a person is not familiar with (or willing to think about) what else is being published or spoken over the airwaves, then his responsive missives can sometimes seem pointed at everyone instead of just the fanatical fringe. Or at least I suppose that is a problem ~ personally I don't have any problem understanding what he's trying to say.

I am in a profession where I have to 'read' people everyday. There is nothing unique about this ~ millions of people accross the US have the same abilities. Still, I am amazed at the reaction I will hear to a Herm, or Herm and Carl press conference. I expect certain madia to try and distort the meaning of their words, but to hear otherwise normal fans buying into this 'spin' is just beyond me. Could it be that what I call the fanatical fringe just lack the 'reading people gene' and have to rely on media to tell them what they meant?

Regardless, I know that every fan and every member of the Chiefs organization wants a championship. Those that suggest otherwize are naive. Personally, I also believe that right now, we need to rebuild. I want Carl at the helm for this. I don't expect (or even want) everyone to agree with me on this, but I do want to see discussion ~ not media driven hate and agenda taught platittudes.

Luz
it's going to be an exciting year...

KC Kings
01-07-2008, 01:49 PM
Holy sh!T..........No joke I actually sent that. I also sent about 5 others. LOL thats funny.

Does he really have sausage fingers? Every time I see him I can't stop staring at his ginormous head.

Sure-Oz
01-07-2008, 01:55 PM
Jack Harry absolutely shreaded King Carl last night-I wonder if Blob Gretz will come to his defense again.

I think he has a man crush on Carl.
Jack Harry shreds Carl every sunday.

FAX
01-07-2008, 01:58 PM
... winning games and going to Superbowl is a pretty easy way to generate a lot of revenue. ...

This is the elephant in the room, Mr. KC Kings. Profitability and winning are not mutually exclusive. I have no doubt that Carl would rather win games than lose games, so it's not a matter of unwillingness. And, if it's not unwillingness, could it be inability? Let's see ... does he excel at cap management? Debatable. Does he create an environment in which guys with nominal talent are developed into impact players? Apparently not. Does he make decisions in the long-term, best interests of the team? One could easily argue that he does not. Does he draft well? That's laughable.

So, what does Carl do, exactly, that leads people to believe that he has what it takes to manage a team that can compete with the best in the league?

FAX

morphius
01-07-2008, 02:00 PM
We've been s l o w l y trying to break the news to you since August 2000 - that indeed, you do suck. I'm glad it's finally taking..........
Oh, don't mistake for a moment that I didn't know I sucked, but a Denise level of sucking, damn. I guess that is a good reason to make me a mod, to chase my ass off.

Reaper16
01-07-2008, 02:17 PM
Luzap's posts are making me ill. After all these years of torture and bullshit... anyone who fails at their job for 18+ years deserves to be let go. Period.

Sure-Oz
01-07-2008, 02:18 PM
let luzap be a true homer, who cares

dirk digler
01-07-2008, 02:21 PM
Uhh... you'd lose.

There are thousands of fans that blame any number of things on the Chiefs not winning it all. Including John Elway and the officiating in that play-off game, Payton Manning, bad luck, bad coaching, bad hair, etc.

Personally I admire Carl, but realize he doesn't have a perfect score. Most of the fanatical fringe, however, just use him as a scapegoat because they've been convinced it's ok to blame him for everything.

I don't expect anyone to answer this out loud, but I have a serious question for all of you...

Doesn't it feel awkward knowing that you're fulfilling the agenda of a journalist that cares nothing for the Chiefs? A Journalist that vowed ten years ago to sway fans to his purpose?

Luz
i think i'm done trying to enlighten... i'm just going to enjoy my club seats ROFL

God you're dumb. Any real Chief fan knows that Carl is a complete failure. I bet if you did a poll on game day at Arrowhead and ask the fans if Carl should be fired or not over 90% would say he should.

As far as your question goes I don't care what Whitlock or Harry's opinion of him is I can think for myself. He has had 20 years to get the job done and he hasn't. He is the longest tenure GM in all of sports and he hasn't sniffed a SB win.

I can't believe anyone would defend Carl but it looks like Carl has found him a new ball licker named Luzap.

FAX
01-07-2008, 02:23 PM
... I do want to see discussion ~ not media driven hate and agenda taught platittudes. ...

I couldn't agree more with this statement, Mr. Luzap. The bonus is that it might cut back on Mr. Rain Man's incessant polling.

I think our disagreement may lie in our differing perceptions behind Gretz's motivation for his claim that Chiefs fans cannot read. Frankly, I could care less about what he says as long as I get to konk him. What bothers me is that he expresses an attitude which seems to pervade the Chiefs' front office. Namely that, when the Chiefs fail, someone (anyone) has to be blamed other than than those who are actually responsible and when they run out of past coaches, they turn on the people paying the bills.

I've heard (with my own ears) and read (with my own eyes) Herm/Carl/Gretz/Mitch/Dawes/etc. describe the cause of our failures in some pretty inane terms. Pap for the masses, I suppose. And some of that is understandable - not every head coach is going to take responsibility for a loss or a bad season, after all. However, I believe that blaming the customer is out of bounds - for a professional organization, that is. Besides, I don't know how they can complain about our inability to comprehend, understand, or appreciate "The Plan" when no one on the face of the Earth knows what "The Plan" actually is.

Ideally, rebuilding should be an exciting and interesting time for the fans. Not a time to duck and cover.

FAX

ChiTown
01-07-2008, 02:27 PM
Luzap's posts are making me ill. After all these years of torture and bullshit... anyone who fails at their job for 18+ years deserves to be let go. Period.

Define failure in the eyes of an owner (Carl's Boss).

Sold out stadiums, Chiefs merchandising is hot, a competitive (yet horribly mediocre) team.....He's fulfilled everything but playoff success. From a Boss' standpoint, he's doing his job, but from a fan's POV, he's failed miserably.

Tribal Warfare
01-07-2008, 02:27 PM
Holy sh!T..........No joke I actually sent that. I also sent about 5 others. LOL thats funny.


the master of the badass sigs did us proud :rockon:

dirk digler
01-07-2008, 02:30 PM
Define failure in the eyes of an owner (Carl's Boss).

Sold out stadiums, Chiefs merchandising is hot, a competitive (yet horribly mediocre) team.....He's fulfilled everything but playoff success. From a Boss' standpoint, he's doing his job, but from a fan's POV, he's failed miserably.

And therein lies the rub.

As I stated when Carl was retained I am done blaming Carl from this point on it is Clark Hunt that should get any and all blame for the failure of this team.

Reaper16
01-07-2008, 02:32 PM
Define failure in the eyes of an owner (Carl's Boss).

Sold out stadiums, Chiefs merchandising is hot, a competitive (yet horribly mediocre) team.....He's fulfilled everything but playoff success. From a Boss' standpoint, he's doing his job, but from a fan's POV, he's failed miserably.
He's succeeded remarkably in his capacity as team president. His failures are in his job as general manager.

ChiTown
01-07-2008, 02:33 PM
He's succeeded remarkably in his capacity as team president. His failures are in his job as general manager.

I couldn't agree more.

MTG#10
01-07-2008, 02:35 PM
Scorp: Recent polls have shown that a fifth of the Chiefs fan base can't locate Carl and Herm's "plan." Why do you think this is?

Gretz: I personally believe that chiefsplanet chiefsfans are unable to do so because some people out there in our fanbase don't have "plans" and that I believe that our education, like, such as the "five year plan" and "the written English" and everything, like, such as, and I believe that they should... our chiefsfans over here in the chiefsplanet should help the chiefsfans, or should help Carl, it should help Herm and "the written English" so we will be able to build up our future.

The Iraq.

KCChiefsFan88
01-07-2008, 02:38 PM
Define failure in the eyes of an owner (Carl's Boss).

Sold out stadiums, Chiefs merchandising is hot, a competitive (yet horribly mediocre) team.....He's fulfilled everything but playoff success. From a Boss' standpoint, he's doing his job, but from a fan's POV, he's failed miserably.

For some owners in the league winning a Super Bowl trumps all the business related objectives. Does anyone think Robert Kraft, Jerry Jones or Daniel Snyder would put up with Dictator Carl for 20 years?

ChiTown
01-07-2008, 02:41 PM
For some owners in the league winning a Super Bowl trumps all the business related objectives. Does anyone think Robert Kraft, Jerry Jones or Daniel Snyder would put up with Dictator Carl for 20 years?

That was kinda the point. Carl's Boss thought/thinks he's been a raving success, because success meant revenue and being competitive in your division. Other owners are more passionate about winning, and much less loyal than Lamar, where the bottom line means playoff success.

FAX
01-07-2008, 02:44 PM
Surely the Hunts realize that winning sells more tickets, merchandise, beers, parking passes, and Larry Johnson fatheads, Mr. Chitown?

I must be further out on the fringe than I thought because I still don't get it.

FAX

morphius
01-07-2008, 02:52 PM
Personally, I also believe that right now, we need to rebuild. I want Carl at the helm for this.

I would like to see your reasoning for this comment. I personally find most of the media pretty annoying, but what in Carl's record leads you to believe that he can rebuild this team?

I had no problem with Carl until after DV. I felt that Carl brought in his number one guy, but the team he wanted, and ended up losing. No harm in trying your best and moving on, but now we traded away pics for a Coach who while getting into the playoff's, hasn't been able to do much once he got there. Toss in the fact that Herm was completely out coached by the Chiefs the year before we hired him, and you have to really be left scratching your head as to why you would actually trade for a guy who you completely embarrassed on the field other then the fact that the two are friends. Or am I missing some great detail about Carl that would make you think that he should still be in charge, other then he seemed to build his teams better through FA then he did from the draft, and that he has even whiffed on many of his FA acquisitions lately.

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 02:53 PM
Surely the Hunts realize that winning sells more tickets, merchandise, beers, parking passes, and Larry Johnson fatheads, Mr. Chitown?

I must be further out on the fringe than I thought because I still don't get it.

FAX

Has Clark Hunt ever wanted for anything in his life? I don't know, that is for sure, but it may be part of the problem. How many fancy crumpets does one need?

Der Flöprer
01-07-2008, 02:56 PM
Gretz you are nothing but a backtracking, lying, pig. You have alienated what little of this fan base that remained loyal to you. I look forward to the odor of your backside wafting east or west as you descend from Kansas City. You are a disgrace to this team, and you are a disgrace to your profession. GO AWAY!!!!!

FAX
01-07-2008, 02:56 PM
Has Clark Hunt ever wanted for anything in his life? I don't know, that is for sure, but it may be part of the problem. How many fancy crumpets does one need?

Twelve fancy crumpets per week, Mr. HemiEd.

I don't see his crumpet habit as being the problem, though. Being born into wealth doesn't necessarily preclude a competitive nature. Sometimes, the opposite is true.

Honestly, I get the feeling there's something going on here that we're all missing. Like naked pictures of young Clark and a panda bear in Carl's safety deposit box, or something.

FAX

FAX
01-07-2008, 02:57 PM
Gretz you are nothing but a backtracking, lying, pig. You have alienated what little of this fan base that remained loyal to you. I look forward to the odor of your backside wafting east or west as you descend from Kansas City. You are a disgrace to this team, and you are a disgrace to your profession. GO AWAY!!!!!

You wacky fringer.

Don't let Mr. Luzap see this post.

FAX

ChiTown
01-07-2008, 02:58 PM
Surely the Hunts realize that winning sells more tickets, merchandise, beers, parking passes, and Larry Johnson fatheads, Mr. Chitown?

I must be further out on the fringe than I thought because I still don't get it.

FAX

We've got no playoff win's since 1995 - none. Yet, the stadium is full, merchandising is hot, everything Lamar seemed to want...............

morphius
01-07-2008, 03:04 PM
Twelve fancy crumpets per week, Mr. HemiEd.

I don't see his crumpet habit as being the problem, though. Being born into wealth doesn't necessarily preclude a competitive nature. Sometimes, the opposite is true.

Honestly, I get the feeling there's something going on here that we're all missing. Like naked pictures of young Clark and a panda bear in Carl's safety deposit box, or something.

FAX
I'm sticking with my theory that Clark was given strict instructions not to fire Carl by Lamar before he passed away.

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 03:05 PM
Twelve fancy crumpets per week, Mr. HemiEd.

I don't see his crumpet habit as being the problem, though. Being born into wealth doesn't necessarily preclude a competitive nature. Sometimes, the opposite is true.

Honestly, I get the feeling there's something going on here that we're all missing. Like naked pictures of young Clark and a panda bear in Carl's safety deposit box, or something.

FAX

I keep hoping we will see that competitive streak come out in Clark. So far, after more than a year he has followed his Father's example, the way I see it.
His Dad (R.I.P.) pretty well turned the Football business over to a hired hand. I have seen nothing that would indicate Carl will be any different.

Der Flöprer
01-07-2008, 03:06 PM
You wacky fringer.

Don't let Mr. Luzap see this post.

FAX


Mr. Luzap can have his club seats. I live 2100 miles away, so he won't be getting my season tickets. That said, I hope Gretz heads east. I don't want to smell him here.

Simplex3
01-07-2008, 03:42 PM
I found out something the other day.

You can't put a moderator on ignore.

You can put a moderator on CPIggy.
CPIggy is the nuclear bomb of ignores.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
01-07-2008, 03:45 PM
CPIggy is the nuclear bomb of ignores.

Indeed it is.

And a welcome relief too.

:thumb:

Luzap
01-07-2008, 03:52 PM
I would like to see your reasoning for this comment. I personally find most of the media pretty annoying, but what in Carl's record leads you to believe that he can rebuild this team?

I had no problem with Carl until after DV. I felt that Carl brought in his number one guy, but the team he wanted, and ended up losing. No harm in trying your best and moving on, but now we traded away pics for a Coach who while getting into the playoff's, hasn't been able to do much once he got there. Toss in the fact that Herm was completely out coached by the Chiefs the year before we hired him, and you have to really be left scratching your head as to why you would actually trade for a guy who you completely embarrassed on the field other then the fact that the two are friends. Or am I missing some great detail about Carl that would make you think that he should still be in charge, other then he seemed to build his teams better through FA then he did from the draft, and that he has even whiffed on many of his FA acquisitions lately.

Cool ~ some serious discussion...

IMO Carl's right because he's done it before. Many of us do remember the fiasco called a sports franchise prior to Carl arriving. Although we can argue that the situation was somewhat different, he rebuilt an organization that had losing ingrained in it's heart.

Hiring Herm is the start of our rebuilding effort. As I have stated on some other occasions, we began our 'secret' rebuilding process two years ago. You can argue (I think rightly so) that Carl would have been better off dismantling the entire team last year, but with the attitude of the press I think Carl honestly felt it was in the best interest of the Chiefs to get some of the transition done while still fielding a competative team. That's a noble goal ~ one that looked possible 12 months ago when we were going to the playoffs with a team that obviousely had no talent to be there.

Of course, in retrospect, we realize it backfired in '07 ~ and Carl's fears are apparently true ~ many of the bandwagon, media driven, fanatical fringe, not-real fans (insert whatever term you want) are staying away and cursing the Chiefs on the airwaves and the internet. Hopefully Carl's efforts have cut a year or more off of what is generally recognized as a multi-year effort (dismantling/rebuilding).

In any case, Herm is the right coach for the job for very simple reasons ~ He believes in playing/developing young players, he believes in fitting the system around the skills of the players (not the other way around), and he's a players coach that players respect/listen to. Now that he's got the green light (no more pretense of not rebuilding) he's hiring his people and drafting his way. Time will tell, but I think it will be an exciting future.

Luz
we could go into much more depth on any of these points, but this is basically how i see it...

Luzap
01-07-2008, 03:57 PM
BTW...

What I just outlines in my previous post is the current rebuilding plan. It's been explained ~ people just need to listen.

Luz
or maybe its that reading people gene again...

Simplex3
01-07-2008, 04:05 PM
BTW...

What I just outlines in my previous post is the current rebuilding plan. It's been explained ~ people just need to listen.

Luz
or maybe its that reading people gene again...
Maybe we're just missing the "sphincter lip-locking" gene that you seem to have.

:shrug:

Reaper16
01-07-2008, 04:10 PM
Because releasing rookie kickers, starting Huard over Croyle, signing washed-up vets like Eddie Drummund and Kyle Turley, etc really speaks towards "rebuilding."

The majority of the fanbase recognizes the need for a complete rebuild, but that did not happen this past season. Sure, some young talent was played... but almost reluctantly at times. The speculation throughout the season was that Herm was more gung-ho about rebuilding than Carl was... that Carl was behind the brain-numbing decisions such as starting Huard and signing Drummund.

So which is it? Has Carl been dedicated to rebuilding all along? Or has he only very recently become convinced that a rebuild is necessary?

EITHER WAY it means that he has failed at his duties as GM for letting the franchise crumble and collapse into what it is today. Period.

Sure, other GMs let thier teams fall into disarray, too. it happens all over the NFL. Those GMs are consequently fired.

dirk digler
01-07-2008, 04:12 PM
Cool ~ some serious discussion...

IMO Carl's right because he's done it before. Many of us do remember the fiasco called a sports franchise prior to Carl arriving. Although we can argue that the situation was somewhat different, he rebuilt an organization that had losing ingrained in it's heart.

Hiring Herm is the start of our rebuilding effort. As I have stated on some other occasions, we began our 'secret' rebuilding process two years ago. You can argue (I think rightly so) that Carl would have been better off dismantling the entire team last year, but with the attitude of the press I think Carl honestly felt it was in the best interest of the Chiefs to get some of the transition done while still fielding a competative team. That's a noble goal ~ one that looked possible 12 months ago when we were going to the playoffs with a team that obviousely had no talent to be there.

Of course, in retrospect, we realize it backfired in '07 ~ and Carl's fears are apparently true ~ many of the bandwagon, media driven, fanatical fringe, not-real fans (insert whatever term you want) are staying away and cursing the Chiefs on the airwaves and the internet. Hopefully Carl's efforts have cut a year or more off of what is generally recognized as a multi-year effort (dismantling/rebuilding).

In any case, Herm is the right coach for the job for very simple reasons ~ He believes in playing/developing young players, he believes in fitting the system around the skills of the players (not the other way around), and he's a players coach that players respect/listen to. Now that he's got the green light (no more pretense of not rebuilding) he's hiring his people and drafting his way. Time will tell, but I think it will be an exciting future.

Luz
we could go into much more depth on any of these points, but this is basically how i see it...

I will give credit to Carl for helping to turn this organization. He rightfully deserves some of the credit but don't forget that Marty had alot to do with the success of the team. Marty never had the most talented teams because Carl sucks at player personnel so Marty willed alot of those teams to the playoffs but as we all know talent will always prevail in the playoffs and the Super Bowl.

I don't believe for one second there was some mysterious rebuilding plan 2 years ago. The Chiefs decided to rebuild when we were going to have a losing season. I started a thread during the season when Carl was on 810 spouting off that he wasn't ever going to rebuild and never was going to play the young players.

I will say this I will give Herm a chance to finally rebuild but I highly doubt it will be successful. You do realize he has never won more than 10 games in any season? He is failure at coaching just like Carl is at being an GM.

kstater
01-07-2008, 04:37 PM
Personally I admire Carl, but realize he doesn't have a perfect score. Most of the fanatical fringe, however, just use him as a scapegoat because they've been convinced it's ok to blame him for everything.


Luz
i think i'm done trying to enlighten... i'm just going to enjoy my club seats ROFL


A scapegoat? A SCAPEGOAT? The General Manager of this organization hasn't been able to field a winner in almost TWO decades, and you have the gall to sit here and say he's just a scapegoat?

Dave Lane
01-07-2008, 04:37 PM
Why? What Gretz just said is 100% true.

People hear what they want to hear, and (apparantly) read what they want to read. This reporter has consistently given us the Chiefs point of view. If he didn't, we would never hear it and never have insight into their thinking. Most of the other 'reporters' in KC are too busy telling us what we should think (and what they want us to think) to give us both sides of the story.

And before anyone goes and tries to re-write history (again) ~ Gretz's working for the Chiefs came as a response to years of slander by some 'reporters' in the KC media (not the other way around).

Now I realize that many of you don't want to be confused by the facts. You're having too much fun being a bully and throwing epitaphs at our GM, but please, at least read what the people you slander actually write and say.

I could care less whether you personally like Carl or not, but being a bully isn't right on the playground, in the classroom, at the office, or in your home ~ it doesn't change just because you're on the internet.

Luz
then again, it does help me get my club level seats...

Jeez you want club level seats I can get you 10 that aren't renewing how many you want to pony up for and I'll get you put together. You are Blob Gretz aren't you?

Dave

beach tribe
01-07-2008, 04:39 PM
Jeez you want club level seats I can get you 10 that aren't renewing how many you want to pony up for and I'll get you put together. You are Blob Gretz aren't you?

Dave
Exactly what I thought, and still think.
BG=busted.

FAX
01-07-2008, 04:44 PM
BTW...

What I just outlines in my previous post is the current rebuilding plan. It's been explained ~ people just need to listen.

Luz
or maybe its that reading people gene again...

ROFL

I like you, Mr. Luzap. You are an honored, thoughtful, and wise poster. But, dang.

So the plan is ...

A) Rebuild.
B) Play young players.
C) Devise schemes the young players can play.

Is that it? Sounds good to me. I guess I was expecting maybe a little more detail, but that would require that pesky ol' communication gene.

FAX

FAX
01-07-2008, 05:16 PM
... I don't believe for one second there was some mysterious rebuilding plan 2 years ago. The Chiefs decided to rebuild when we were going to have a losing season. I started a thread during the season when Carl was on 810 spouting off that he wasn't ever going to rebuild and never was going to play the young players. ...

I think they tried to have it both ways (generally not the brightest idea in any given circumstance) and nothing worked, Mr. dirk digler. We were sort of semi-building.

I rarely, if ever, cite a prior post of my own, but I mentioned early in the year that the best marketing/pr approach for Carl when the 2007 season began would have been to promote the idea of the "New Chiefs", going with exciting young players, launching a new future, etc.. In retrospect, it would have saved him sixteen tons of grief.

You know, a lot of Planeteers talk about Carl's "win now" approach. I think I would call it a "win enough" philosophy. So long as a new Chiefs fan is born every minute, he can sell whatever they put on the field and wins are gravy. The playoffs don't really matter all that much to the business side of the organization and clearly, had we accidentally won 8 or 9 games this year, he would be talking about the great moves they had made in respect to starting Downfield, Drummond, that wacky oline, etc. In other words, win enough to keep the smoke and mirror machine operating. Instead, this season exposed their off-season decision-making as very suspect.

We're basically in two camps, now. One that's willing to take whatever comes in the name of rebuilding and another that's so tired of Carl and/or Herm, nothing short of a Super Bowl will be good enough while they're in charge. The problem as I see it is that, even if you love the idea of rebuilding and are fully prepared for the inevitable pain, it doesn't mean we have the leadership necessary to deliver a good result. Again, I'd love to see some evidence that Carl and Herm have what it takes to turn this around and position the Chiefs as a Super Bowl contender. Anybody got some of that?

FAX

38yrsfan
01-07-2008, 05:22 PM
No, I'm Spartacus

Terribilis
01-07-2008, 05:52 PM
Sausage fingers are my new favorite insult. They are totally epithetic.

kstater
01-07-2008, 05:54 PM
Luzap, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question as to why a GM who has not fielded a winner in 20 years is just a scapegoat.

Logical
01-07-2008, 06:04 PM
Fax,

With all due respect, Gretz doesn't have a Chiefs Fans Suck theme. There are people in the media that desperately want you to think he does, and those same people are having orgasms because they think their agenda they've been pushing for over a decade is finally taking hold. Remember ~ the media (for the most part) don't care about the Chiefs. They care about their ratings ~ period.

Again, if you actually read what Gretz writes, he has addressed the vocal minority, or fanatical fringe (my words). Jason Whitlock has done everything he can to court this fanatical fringe. He has a personal vendetta against Carl that goes back over a decade since Carl barred him from the Chiefs locker room. This isn't about Carl's performance as GM, it's about one reporters ego and his manipulation of an excitable minority of the fan base.

Manipulation you say? Yes, manipulation. A good example is Carl's 'Five Year Plan.' This is a myth. It was totally made up by Whitlock. Yet he has repeated this lie over and over and over again enough times that he knows certain personality types will now accept it as gospel. Do you honestly think this is the only lie Jason has fabricated? And do you think that other media personalities (seeing Jason's success) won't adopt the same strategy of inciting gullible fans (can you say talk radio)?

Did anyone even stop to wonder why Gretz would publish the letter in this thread starter? It's because to most fans, this guy's letter makes him look like the mindless idiot he is. Now to the fanatical fringe, he looks like a hero.

I don't get frustrated at Carl, Whitlock, Gretz, or anyone else. I'll decide whether to respect them and then move on. The only thing that truly frustrates me are people that don't think for themselves. Our schools don't teach us how to think and unless someone is smart enough to start themselves down the path of serious personal growth, most people will never learn.

The bottom line is that most fans like Gretz's reporting (look at his article's ratings on the Chiefs website). Most fans don't think we'll never win a championship with Carl, and most fans don't want his head on a platter.

Only a vocal minority spout these ravings ~ ravings that an egotistical reporter swore over ten years ago that he would use the power of the pen to achieve.

Luz
when He said, 'there will be poor amongst us always' do you really think he was only talking about money???...

Luz,

Sorry but this does not meet the sanity test IMO. Are you really trying to tell me you believe Carl is a good GM when it comes to winning championships (that is why the teams a competing). If you answer no, then why have you not joined the vocal minority? If you answer, yes you believe Carl is a good GM when it comes to building championship quality teams, then how do you justify that answer.

Logical/Dr. Doom/Jim

Awaiting your response.

Logical
01-07-2008, 06:25 PM
Personally, I'm willing to be convinced that Carl and Herm really know what they're doing, now have a workable plan in place, and can get this thing done.

As a fan, I would happily listen to any reasonable evidence (as many other Planeteers would, I'm sure) that demonstrates they have the ability to get us into the playoffs with a team that can win a post-season game or two.

Were I in a position to do it, I would suggest to Gretz that, rather than wasting time accusing Chiefs fans of illiteracy, he consider actually writing something in English that can be actually read that actually gives us reason to actually hope "The Plan" will actually work.

FAX

Actually Mr. FAX if Mr. Gretz is privy to the plan, an article enlightening we the stupid fans who need to be rebuilt would be most helpful. I stand at the read to be rebuilt, better, stronger, more homeric (probably not a word) and Mr. Gretz can start that rebuilding by providing a detailed insight into how the plan is to be implemented.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2008, 06:47 PM
Mmmmmm...sausages...

Logical
01-07-2008, 06:48 PM
BTW...

What I just outlines in my previous post is the current rebuilding plan. It's been explained ~ people just need to listen.

Luz
or maybe its that reading people gene again...

And people think I am a condescending asshole. I really need to introduce them to you. By the way Mr. Condescension please provide a link to a single article where Carl lays out his complete plan. Then one where Herm lays out his, I mean since you are so good at reading and all, I am sure this will not be a problem for you. I do enjoy plain English I am rather limited in that regard having only obtained a Masters degree. I will consult with DanT and see if a Ph.D helps you read the plan.

Guru
01-07-2008, 07:29 PM
If someone from here actually sent this you deserve rep supreme...

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2008/01/07/gretz_dipping_in_the_mailbag/

From Jeff: “In response to your maybe the fan base needs to be rebuilt garbage. Maybe you need to pull your head out of King Carl’s *&^##. I am tired of you putting the blame on everyone else except where it belongs. King Carl is to blame for the Chiefs lack of playoff appearances … the only thing that will turn the Chiefs around is sending your master packing. Then hopefully us real fans won’t have to be insulted by the crap you peck with your sausage fingers.”

Sausage fingers? Jeff, have you ever seen my fingers? I didn’t think so.

If you had actually read what I’ve written all year, you would understand that I’ve placed all the blame for this season on Peterson. The Chiefs went 4-12 because of lack of talent. Peterson is responsible for providing Herm Edwards talent. It’s not there and that’s his fault.

Now, maybe you can get the people at the home to read you my columns again. Obviously, you are having problems understanding the written English. Maybe they can back off the medications a little bit and it will assuage your angry soul.

Or maybe you should just have another order of sausage.

Does Gretz even read what he writes?

FAX
01-07-2008, 07:40 PM
Does Gretz even read what he writes?

He probably worked on those paragraphs for hours, Mr. Guru. To my untrained, fringy, common, illiterate eye, it appears as though he's trying too hard by half to sound clever. Unfortunately, he just comes across as, not only fat, but fatuitous.

I would love to see Gretz and Whitlock in a cage match. Neither one of them would last a round. After a minute, they'd be lying in their respective corners sweating rivers and wheezing like asthmatic dogs. They sure can insult people from behind a keyboard, though.

FAX

Guru
01-07-2008, 08:06 PM
He probably worked on those paragraphs for hours, Mr. Guru. To my untrained, fringy, common, illiterate eye, it appears as though he's trying too hard by half to sound clever. Unfortunately, he just comes across as, not only fat, but fatuitous.

I would love to see Gretz and Whitlock in a cage match. Neither one of them would last a round. After a minute, they'd be lying in their respective corners sweating rivers and wheezing like asthmatic dogs. They sure can insult people from behind a keyboard, though.

FAX
I have faith that Whitlock would tear him to shreads.

Luzap
01-07-2008, 09:12 PM
Luzap, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question as to why a GM who has not fielded a winner in 20 years is just a scapegoat.

I'm sorry ~ I didn't think you were serious...

You do realize that Carl has fielded more winning teams than not over the last 19 years?

Luz
:shake:

Tribal Warfare
01-07-2008, 09:17 PM
I'm sorry ~ I didn't think you were serious...

You do realize that Carl has fielded more winning teams than not over the last 19 years?

Luz
:shake:


You do realize that under his tenure all of the AFC West teams including Seattle has gone to Superbowl, while Carl has fielded one and done in the playoffs . :shake:

dirk digler
01-07-2008, 09:19 PM
I'm sorry ~ I didn't think you were serious...

You do realize that Carl has fielded more winning teams than not over the last 19 years?

Luz
:shake:

Has he fielded a team in 20 years that went to a SB Yes or NO?

The question is pretty simple maybe even you can figure it out.

Luzap
01-07-2008, 09:47 PM
ROFL

I like you, Mr. Luzap. You are an honored, thoughtful, and wise poster. But, dang.

So the plan is ...

A) Rebuild.
B) Play young players.
C) Devise schemes the young players can play.

Is that it? Sounds good to me. I guess I was expecting maybe a little more detail, but that would require that pesky ol' communication gene.

FAX

A) We've not had an all out rebuilding process in 19 years. You can argue that we should have, but to not recognize this as a change in philosophy is just not paying attention.

B) The Head Coaches we have employed in Carl's tenure have never had this philosophy. Hiring Herm (to me) was the signal that Carl realized we'd missed our window and was bringing someone in that could dismantle and rebuild. Did Carl slow that process down in an effort to remain competative? I believe so and it worked one year and failed the next. The great thing now, however, is that we go into our true rebuilding year with a base of young experienced players. Herm will build this team through the draft and not try to patch holes, but rather, build foundations.

C) Again, we've never had a coach that had this philosophy. Most coaches have a scheme they've spent years tweeking (and complicating). It's one of the arguments against playing new players ~ it takes time to learn the system. Herm believes in building the system around the talent we have ~ not trying to force our talent into a pet system. Therefor, he can and will play the young players ~ and put them in an environment where they have a chance to succeed.
Another way to say this is that Herm believes in getting the type of players he wants, then finding a system that works for them. Did anybody question (or even notice) that Bowe doesn't fit the Offensive System we were using? Does anyone really think that was an accident?

D) Don't forget that Herm is a player's coach. This simply means that he communicates well with the players on their level. He tells them the truth and because he's played himself, they listen. I believe this is an important element in developing the core and foundation of our team.

There may or may not be more 'details' to this plan ~ but this is blockbuster stuff. Personally, I suspect that most of the 'Planning' going on right now has to do with deciding what coaches they're going to go to war with.

Luz
does this help???...

FAX
01-07-2008, 09:49 PM
I'm sorry ~ I didn't think you were serious...

You do realize that Carl has fielded more winning teams than not over the last 19 years?

Luz
:shake:

Hmmmm. I suppose everyone has the right to define success however they wish, Mr. Luzap.

It's certainly unrealistic to think that we should go to the Super Bowl every year. But, surely a reasonable standard of measure for success in the NFL are the number of playoff wins an organization accumulates. Were that not the case, the regular season would be, essentially, meaningless - other than to serve merely as an entertaining diversion from real life for the fans, a paycheck for the coaches and players, and some profit for the owners, of course. And, if regular season wins were the appropriate measure, the playoffs themselves would be likewise meaningless and would probably not even exist. After all, what would be the point?

For that reason, I would argue that, from the standpoint of franchise or GM success, regular season wins are the means - not the end. Which moves the question back to the beginning ... what evidence exists that demonstrates Carl has the talent and ability to move the franchise forward to a competitive standing?

FAX

dirk digler
01-07-2008, 09:57 PM
Funny how Luzap avoids my question.

FAX
01-07-2008, 09:59 PM
A) We've not had an all out rebuilding process in 19 years. You can argue that we should have, but to not recognize this as a change in philosophy is just not paying attention.

B) The Head Coaches we have employed in Carl's tenure have never had this philosophy. Hiring Herm (to me) was the signal that Carl realized we'd missed our window and was bringing someone in that could dismantle and rebuild. Did Carl slow that process down in an effort to remain competative? I believe so and it worked one year and failed the next. The great thing now, however, is that we go into our true rebuilding year with a base of young experienced players. Herm will build this team through the draft and not try to patch holes, but rather, build foundations.

C) Again, we've never had a coach that had this philosophy. Most coaches have a scheme they've spent years tweeking (and complicating). It's one of the arguments against playing new players ~ it takes time to learn the system. Herm believes in building the system around the talent we have ~ not trying to force our talent into a pet system. Therefor, he can and will play the young players ~ and put them in an environment where they have a chance to succeed.
Another way to say this is that Herm believes in getting the type of players he wants, then finding a system that works for them. Did anybody question (or even notice) that Bowe doesn't fit the Offensive System we were using? Does anyone really think that was an accident?

D) Don't forget that Herm is a player's coach. This simply means that he communicates well with the players on their level. He tells them the truth and because he's played himself, they listen. I believe this is an important element in developing the core and foundation of our team.

There may or may not be more 'details' to this plan ~ but this is blockbuster stuff. Personally, I suspect that most of the 'Planning' going on right now has to do with deciding what coaches they're going to go to war with.

Luz
does this help???...

It's somewhat helpful, Mr. Luzap. It seems like we're covering much of the same ground, though. Perhaps you didn't see this thread I created dealing with many of the same points you mention ...

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=177907

... now granted, it's not the greatest thread in the world, but I think you'll find that our views on this "rebuilding" effort aren't so far apart as you might imagine.

Nevertheless, the "details" I was hoping to learn have more to do with the ways and means associated with implementing "The Plan". From your prior posts, I got the feeling you had insights into what those details might be. Probably just poor reading skills on my part. I suppose we'll all just have to wait and see how things unfold in the off-season.

I'm certainly looking forward to finding out just how Herm is going to move forward on this.

FAX

Iowanian
01-07-2008, 10:01 PM
BobGretz needs to be the star of the next BME Pain Olympics.

I'd loan the classy and non-deranged fan appreciating bobgretz a rusty hammer.

MadMax
01-07-2008, 10:06 PM
Mmmmmm...sausages...


Piggy Pops!!!!!! :)

MadMax
01-07-2008, 10:09 PM
I think they tried to have it both ways (generally not the brightest idea in any given circumstance) and nothing worked, Mr. dirk digler. We were sort of semi-building.

I rarely, if ever, cite a prior post of my own, but I mentioned early in the year that the best marketing/pr approach for Carl when the 2007 season began would have been to promote the idea of the "New Chiefs", going with exciting young players, launching a new future, etc.. In retrospect, it would have saved him sixteen tons of grief.

You know, a lot of Planeteers talk about Carl's "win now" approach. I think I would call it a "win enough" philosophy. So long as a new Chiefs fan is born every minute, he can sell whatever they put on the field and wins are gravy. The playoffs don't really matter all that much to the business side of the organization and clearly, had we accidentally won 8 or 9 games this year, he would be talking about the great moves they had made in respect to starting Downfield, Drummond, that wacky oline, etc. In other words, win enough to keep the smoke and mirror machine operating. Instead, this season exposed their off-season decision-making as very suspect.

We're basically in two camps, now. One that's willing to take whatever comes in the name of rebuilding and another that's so tired of Carl and/or Herm, nothing short of a Super Bowl will be good enough while they're in charge. The problem as I see it is that, even if you love the idea of rebuilding and are fully prepared for the inevitable pain, it doesn't mean we have the leadership necessary to deliver a good result. Again, I'd love to see some evidence that Carl and Herm have what it takes to turn this around and position the Chiefs as a Super Bowl contender. Anybody got some of that?

FAX


I take is as forced into something they NEVER wanted to have to do. Now it was da plan all along????

beach tribe
01-07-2008, 10:25 PM
A) We've not had an all out rebuilding process in 19 years. You can argue that we should have, but to not recognize this as a change in philosophy is just not paying attention.

B) The Head Coaches we have employed in Carl's tenure have never had this philosophy. Hiring Herm (to me) was the signal that Carl realized we'd missed our window and was bringing someone in that could dismantle and rebuild. Did Carl slow that process down in an effort to remain competative? I believe so and it worked one year and failed the next. The great thing now, however, is that we go into our true rebuilding year with a base of young experienced players. Herm will build this team through the draft and not try to patch holes, but rather, build foundations.

C) Again, we've never had a coach that had this philosophy. Most coaches have a scheme they've spent years tweeking (and complicating). It's one of the arguments against playing new players ~ it takes time to learn the system. Herm believes in building the system around the talent we have ~ not trying to force our talent into a pet system. Therefor, he can and will play the young players ~ and put them in an environment where they have a chance to succeed.
Another way to say this is that Herm believes in getting the type of players he wants, then finding a system that works for them. Did anybody question (or even notice) that Bowe doesn't fit the Offensive System we were using? Does anyone really think that was an accident?

D) Don't forget that Herm is a player's coach. This simply means that he communicates well with the players on their level. He tells them the truth and because he's played himself, they listen. I believe this is an important element in developing the core and foundation of our team.

There may or may not be more 'details' to this plan ~ but this is blockbuster stuff. Personally, I suspect that most of the 'Planning' going on right now has to do with deciding what coaches they're going to go to war with.

Luz
does this help???...
Where is the evidence of Herm being so good at rebuilding? Where does this shit come from?
They started this seasom with a 34 year old QB, and never said a damn word about rebuilding until it was evident we were ****ed.
I like the way they finally decided to go, but where is the evidence that Herm is a good person to build a team.
Carl's gonna be pulling his strings anyway. So I guess it doesn't matter whether he can do it or not.

beach tribe
01-07-2008, 10:26 PM
Where is the evidence of Herm being so good at rebuilding? Where does this shit come from?
They started this seasom with a 34 year old QB, and never said a damn word about rebuilding until it was evident we were ****ed.
I like the way they finally decided to go, but where is the evidence that Herm is a good person to build a team.
Carl's gonna be pulling his strings anyway. So I guess it doesn't matter whether he can do it or not.

Luzap
01-07-2008, 10:31 PM
Hmmmm. I suppose everyone has the right to define success however they wish, Mr. Luzap...

...the regular season would be, essentially, meaningless - other than to serve merely as an entertaining diversion from real life for the fans, a paycheck for the coaches and players, and some profit for the owners, of course...

FAX

Fax ~ an entertaining diversion from real life for the fans is exactly what pro football is for.

Having said that, do I want a championship? Of course.
Does Carl want a championship? Of course.

Ask yourself this... over the last 19 years has Carl fielded Super Bowl calibur teams? My answer is yes ~ several times. And that is all I can really ask of my team's front office.

Carl has two years left on his contract. That is not an arbitrary number. Over the next two seasons we should be able to put together a team that is either championship calibur, or well on the way to being so.
We are already in mid-stream in the rebuilding process. To switch horses now would be folly ~ In two years we would still be a team in disarray no matter how brilliant a GM we brought in.

In two years, if the team is in disarray even with continuity of front office and coaching staff, then the 'Fire Carl Now' (i.e. fanatical fringe)crowd will be vindicated. However, IMO there is no reason to think this is what will happen, and every reason to expect the best.

Luz
:hmmm:...

thehead
01-07-2008, 10:38 PM
He is wrong though. To date, Carl's biggest mistake has been the hiring of Herm Edwards. I don't buy the lack of talent BS, coach them up, damn. Isn't Herm making about $4million per year? WTF!? Earn your damn money Herm! Herm makes Gunther look like a genius.


Agree this is the NFL not world league or amateur football these guys are drafted scouted poked & prodded . Always has a excuse ready to cover every ones ass . Carl Peterson & fu#king Herm Edwards need to be held accountable for this abortion called the Kansas City Chiefs. The sad thing is

thehead
01-07-2008, 10:40 PM
Agree this is the NFL not world league or amateur football these guys are drafted scouted poked & prodded . Always has a excuse ready to cover every ones ass . Carl Peterson & fu#king Herm Edwards need to be held accountable for this abortion called the Kansas City Chiefs. The sad thing is as I was saying the sad thing is I feel the Chiefs will be no better next year.









I guess I hit the wrong button
:cuss:

Logical
01-07-2008, 11:30 PM
Luz,

Sorry but this does not meet the sanity test IMO. Are you really trying to tell me you believe Carl is a good GM when it comes to winning championships (that is why the teams are competing). If you answer no, then why have you not joined the vocal minority? If you answer, yes you believe Carl is a good GM when it comes to building championship quality teams, then how do you justify that answer.

Logical/Dr. Doom/Jim

Awaiting your response.Luz did you miss this one? Additionally, when a guy has been given 2 decades just getting to the playoffs with a bye is not building a Championship caliber team.

FAX
01-08-2008, 12:00 AM
Fax ~ an entertaining diversion from real life for the fans is exactly what pro football is for.

Having said that, do I want a championship? Of course.
Does Carl want a championship? Of course.

Ask yourself this... over the last 19 years has Carl fielded Super Bowl calibur teams? My answer is yes ~ several times. And that is all I can really ask of my team's front office.

Carl has two years left on his contract. That is not an arbitrary number. Over the next two seasons we should be able to put together a team that is either championship calibur, or well on the way to being so.
We are already in mid-stream in the rebuilding process. To switch horses now would be folly ~ In two years we would still be a team in disarray no matter how brilliant a GM we brought in.

In two years, if the team is in disarray even with continuity of front office and coaching staff, then the 'Fire Carl Now' (i.e. fanatical fringe)crowd will be vindicated. However, IMO there is no reason to think this is what will happen, and every reason to expect the best.

Luz
:hmmm:...

You are a funny person, Mr. Luzap. Fascinating, actually. You remind me of a fellow who likes to argue, but if his debate opponent is in agreement on a particular point, he prefers to shift the argument slightly in order to argue over the denotata used to describe the point upon which he and his opponent already agree. I think you could star in a Mel Brooks movie. In fact, if you are interested, I will happily represent your interests to Mr. Brooks. He's older now, so the movie will probably have to be a retrospective on the use of palm oils in the manufacture of sexual aids, but it should be good nonetheless.

Back to topic, I take it, then, that you believe Carl has the requisite talent, experience, and desire to put together a championship team and you are citing the fact that he's come close to winning a playoff game as evidence supporting that view. Correct?

How about Hermoine?

FAX

kstater
01-08-2008, 05:08 AM
I'm sorry ~ I didn't think you were serious...

You do realize that Carl has fielded more winning teams than not over the last 19 years?

Luz
:shake:


I was, and still am serious. Noticed I said a winner, not team with winning record.

Guru
01-08-2008, 05:40 AM
Holy sh!T..........No joke I actually sent that. I also sent about 5 others. LOL thats funny.
Post the other five for us.

Guru
01-08-2008, 05:43 AM
Screw you guys I am taking my ball and going home.

You guys are just hatin.
PUSSY!!!

Guru
01-08-2008, 05:46 AM
Oh, don't mistake for a moment that I didn't know I sucked, but a Denise level of sucking, damn. I guess that is a good reason to make me a mod, to chase my ass off.
And you are still here why? :)

kc rush
01-08-2008, 08:12 AM
I have faith that Whitlock would tear him to shreads.

Only if Gretz was covered in BBQ sauce.

MMMMMM BBQ sausage fingers. :homer:

Iowanian
01-08-2008, 08:18 AM
Do you even know what an epitaph is?

Here Lies Luzap
Smothered by Carl's ball-sack



For Club Level tickets
he'd gladly over pay
he could afford to do it
by screwing other people
selling Amway.

Iowanian
01-08-2008, 08:24 AM
I HIGHLY encourage Mr Gretz to log his ass into Chiefs Planet and engage in discourse on this topic and see how he does when confronted with the facts he says he's concerned with.

I'll happily cover the insult trading portion of the event, if he so chose to enter that event.

Iowanian
01-08-2008, 08:27 AM
Carl Peterson is the Pyramid Marketing King!

Selling inferior products to other people, now charging them for their own "startup kits"(see seat license) to purchase the product, while each person who buys one, gives him a little money, and the people above him get their cut.


Now I see why Luz is in love.

Iowanian
01-08-2008, 08:34 AM
BTW...

What I just outlines in my previous post is the current rebuilding plan. It's been explained ~ people just need to listen.

Luz
or maybe its that reading people gene again...

And you've just very successfully illustrated the point of the majority of Chiefs fans.


The Current gutting and rebuild of an aged and talent un-laden team wouldn't be required at the level it is now, if the GM(see Carl Peterson) hadn't performed his job at such an unsuccessful level. The man, ultimately in charge of the state of the team in both talent and coaching has failed at his job and failed miserably.

A salesman at a car dealership with his performance record on the field(in the lot) would have been shown the road a long, long time ago.

Luzap
01-08-2008, 12:14 PM
You are a funny person, Mr. Luzap. Fascinating, actually. You remind me of a fellow who likes to argue, but if his debate opponent is in agreement on a particular point, he prefers to shift the argument slightly in order to argue over the denotata used to describe the point upon which he and his opponent already agree. I think you could star in a Mel Brooks movie. In fact, if you are interested, I will happily represent your interests to Mr. Brooks. He's older now, so the movie will probably have to be a retrospective on the use of palm oils in the manufacture of sexual aids, but it should be good nonetheless.

Back to topic, I take it, then, that you believe Carl has the requisite talent, experience, and desire to put together a championship team and you are citing the fact that he's come close to winning a playoff game as evidence supporting that view. Correct?

How about Hermoine?

FAX

Fax ~

Ok, I get it now... You're not trying to have a real conversation.

Any coach or GM will tell you that it takes more than talant and coaching to get to a Super Bowl. It takes timing, circumstance, weather, a realativly injury free season, and luck.

Are the Chiefs snakebit? Maybe, but it will all come around. We have produced Super Bowl calibur teams and for one reason or another, it just didn't work out. This is why we should retain Carl ~ he's proven he can produce Super Bowl calibur teams (I've never heard anyone argue this point ~ if you want to be the first, step right up).

Fax, you seem to want credit for agreeing with me on several points, yet you don't seperate yourself from the pack. You post criticisms (albeit slightly different and perhaps more thought out) right along side of posters that are essentially bragging about their ignorance and lack of personal growth. You effectively align yourself with cretins that think vulgarity is funny and use 'Carl sucks' as a mantra and answer for everything.

I wonder, do you criticize those that disagree with you by insulting their profession or calling them names? Do you find it easier to find scapegoats than to conduct an intellectual investigation for objective results? Most importantly, does it make you feel like a bigger person if you can denegrate others? In other words, have you ever mentally escaped the sixth grade?

If so, then why do you hang out whith those that think it hilarious to demonstrate they haven't? You will be judged by the company you keep.


luz
you can post, read, and enjoy without aligning with those that choose self imposed ignorance...

Scorp
01-08-2008, 12:22 PM
You effectively align yourself with cretins that think vulgarity is funny and use 'Carl sucks' as a mantra and answer for everything.




Vulgarity is funny you pompous prick! :drool:

dirk digler
01-08-2008, 12:23 PM
Fax ~

Ok, I get it now... You're not trying to have a real conversation.

Any coach or GM will tell you that it takes more than talant and coaching to get to a Super Bowl. It takes timing, circumstance, weather, a realativly injury free season, and luck.

Are the Chiefs snakebit? Maybe, but it will all come around. We have produced Super Bowl calibur teams and for one reason or another, it just didn't work out. This is why we should retain Carl ~ he's proven he can produce Super Bowl calibur teams (I've never heard anyone argue this point ~ if you want to be the first, step right up).



Luzap:

I will argue this point because it is really simple to make. The Chiefs haven't been to the SB since Carl has been here. Carl fielded teams that could compete in the SB on one side of the ball. When Marty was here we had great defenses and shitty offenses. In 03 our offense was definitely SB calibar but our D was the worst in NFL history.

He never has fielded a complete team that is why he has never sniffed a SB berth.

Also let me just say that Fax is one of the most respected posters on this board and for you to come off as high and mighty as you are shows just how little a person you are.

Chiefnj2
01-08-2008, 12:24 PM
This is why we should retain Carl ~ he's proven he can produce Super Bowl calibur teams (I've never heard anyone argue this point ~ if you want to be the first, step right up).
...

He hasn't produced a Super Bowl calibur team since Joe Montana retired.

Count Alex's Losses
01-08-2008, 12:28 PM
This is why we should retain Carl ~ he's proven he can produce Super Bowl calibur teams

ROFL

This is the dumbest post ever. What team was Super Bowl caliber under Carl? The 1997 team was closest but clearly did not have the quarterback they needed.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
01-08-2008, 12:32 PM
Have we been to a Super Bowl?

Then I would argue we've never had a Super Bowl caliber team under Carl Peterson's reign. We've had good teams, but not championship teams.

Luzap
01-08-2008, 12:42 PM
Luzap:

I will argue this point because it is really simple to make. The Chiefs haven't been to the SB since Carl has been here. Carl fielded teams that could compete in the SB on one side of the ball. When Marty was here we had great defenses and shitty offenses. In 03 our offense was definitely SB calibar but our D was the worst in NFL history.

He never has fielded a complete team that is why he has never sniffed a SB berth.

Also let me just say that Fax is one of the most respected posters on this board and for you to come off as high and mighty as you are shows just how little a person you are.

Dirk,

I disagree with your assessment (and I'm far from alone in this). I'm not going to take the time to look up the years, but when Linn Elliott killed us in the playoffs, and when we again lost to Denver in their Super Bowl year, most agree that we had championship calibur teams (as a matter of fact, if it wasn't for a phantom holding call that negated a Gonzales TD, most feel we would have gone to that Super Bowl instead of Denver). I don't know where you heard this 'never fielded a complete team' stuff, but it is totally inacurate.

As for my dialogue with Fax ~ read it again. It is commenting far more on those around Fax than it is commenting on Fax himself.

Luz
you just can't have a discussion on this issue without denegrating someone, can you???...

Count Alex's Losses
01-08-2008, 12:47 PM
The 1995 team was definitely not Super Bowl caliber. They were incredibly lucky that year and pulled several wins completely out of their ass.

Again, 97 was close, but clearly just short.

By the way, "complete" teams are top 10 in both offense and defense. The Chiefs have never fielded such a team under Carl.

HemiEd
01-08-2008, 01:06 PM
Cool ~ some serious discussion...

IMO Carl's right because he's done it before. Many of us do remember the fiasco called a sports franchise prior to Carl arriving. Although we can argue that the situation was somewhat different, he rebuilt an organization that had losing ingrained in it's heart.

Hiring Herm is the start of our rebuilding effort. As I have stated on some other occasions, we began our 'secret' rebuilding process two years ago. You can argue (I think rightly so) that Carl would have been better off dismantling the entire team last year, but with the attitude of the press I think Carl honestly felt it was in the best interest of the Chiefs to get some of the transition done while still fielding a competative team. That's a noble goal ~ one that looked possible 12 months ago when we were going to the playoffs with a team that obviousely had no talent to be there.

Of course, in retrospect, we realize it backfired in '07 ~ and Carl's fears are apparently true ~ many of the bandwagon, media driven, fanatical fringe, not-real fans (insert whatever term you want) are staying away and cursing the Chiefs on the airwaves and the internet. Hopefully Carl's efforts have cut a year or more off of what is generally recognized as a multi-year effort (dismantling/rebuilding).

In any case, Herm is the right coach for the job for very simple reasons ~ He believes in playing/developing young players, he believes in fitting the system around the skills of the players (not the other way around), and he's a players coach that players respect/listen to. Now that he's got the green light (no more pretense of not rebuilding) he's hiring his people and drafting his way. Time will tell, but I think it will be an exciting future.

Luz
we could go into much more depth on any of these points, but this is basically how i see it...

Luzap, you are merely regurgitating the same smoke we have been told by Herm. His actions tell a different story, one of inconsistency and total lack of continuity.

1) He says he adapts to the players, however his immediate act when arriving was to commit to playing cover 2, period.
2) If Herm is commited to playing young players, why did he bring in Ty Law and keep playing Ty Law, even when he proved he could no longer handle the job?
3) If Herm is commited to these young players, why was Donnie Edwards brought back? Why was Eddie Drummond on the field? Why is Kyle Turley even in the same state as the Chiefs? Why was Eddie Kennison making returns, when the season was already lost?
4) The only thing Herm has done with any consistency, is to tear the team down and discard any remnants of the DV era.

Herm has not proven his ability to build a team, only to tear it down. His draft record in NY was no better than average at best. His draft record in KC is nothing to build a monument to.

In my opinon, the team has been running him, not the other way around. When he had no choice, he played young players. When he had no choice, he started the rebuild.

Signing Donnie Edwards was to ease Carl's guilty concious, just like the re-hiring of Gunther Cunningham, nothing more. Donnie is still taking rides on players he is tackling, and Gunther still needs a pro bowler at every position to have a good defense.

I don't buy the line that Herm is a players coach, he played, so what. They have quit on him two years in a row. So you fire all the players? The Chief's don't have enough talent? Bullshit, they were good the day they were drafted or the day they were signed. The coaches need to do their job and get the players playing a the level they need to.

kstater
01-08-2008, 01:07 PM
Have we been to a Super Bowl?

Then I would argue we've never had a Super Bowl caliber team under Carl Peterson's reign. We've had good teams, but not championship teams.

FAX
01-08-2008, 01:14 PM
Fax ~ Ok, I get it now... You're not trying to have a real conversation.

I thought we were having a real conversation, Mr. Luzap. For my part, a very enjoyable one, as well. Honestly, you don't find it somewhat amusing when someone continues to argue over a point on which they already have agreement? That's SNL stuff, peep.

Any coach or GM will tell you that it takes more than talant and coaching to get to a Super Bowl. It takes timing, circumstance, weather, a realativly injury free season, and luck.

No question. Although some people would counsel that one actually "makes" his or her own luck ... by consistently putting themselves in a position to take advantage of opportunities as they are presented. Given that, one would have to ask, has Carl made the most of his opportunities (in terms of football, I mean)? That's debatable, but honestly difficult to judge if you're being truly objective about it.

Are the Chiefs snakebit? Maybe, but it will all come around. We have produced Super Bowl calibur teams and for one reason or another, it just didn't work out. This is why we should retain Carl ~ he's proven he can produce Super Bowl calibur teams (I've never heard anyone argue this point ~ if you want to be the first, step right up).


I don't know if the Chiefs are snakebit, or not. To be honest, I've often wondered about that, but I now view the whole "bad luck", "bad timing", "black cloud", "bad injuries", "worse weather" mantras as just more excuses because those things even out over time. We both know that every other team in the NFL faces the same obstacles. Some of them, however, overcome these problems and most of them have overcome them far better than our Chiefs have done. As for Carl's ability to produce Super Bowl caliber teams, I'll gladly step up to that one on this basis ... the only true test as to whether or not a GM has fielded a Super Bowl caliber team is if that team actually makes it to the Super Bowl. That, I believe, is why they play the game.

Fax, you seem to want credit for agreeing with me on several points, yet you don't seperate yourself from the pack. You post criticisms (albeit slightly different and perhaps more thought out) right along side of posters that are essentially bragging about their ignorance and lack of personal growth. You effectively align yourself with cretins that think vulgarity is funny and use 'Carl sucks' as a mantra and answer for everything.

I'm not certain that it's "credit" I seek, Mr. Luzap, although I would feel no shame in agreeing with you at any time or on any subject. I've always considered you to be a very intelligent and thoughtful poster - one of my hero posters, in fact - from my early N00b (sp?) days. Perhaps this sense you're expressing that our like-mindedness is somehow super-extra-special-important to me, is based on my comments of concern that you seem to want to argue about items on which we appear to have agreement. I'm not sure you've used the thread link I posted, for example. It's troubling because it makes me think that you're not reading my posts. That thread was posted long before this one and, essentially, discusses my own positive feelings about some of the changes being implemented. So, if you want to be perfectly accurate about the matter, many of your points demonstrate an agreement with me and you should feel darn good about that.

As for the "Carl Sucks" crowd, everyone has a right to their opinion, as I'm sure you appreciate. Granted, it's sometimes difficult to maintain one's composure in the face of rampant idiocy, but it's good for the soul. For my part, I align myself with the basic "Carl Sucks" concept in the sense that his ability to bring a championship to Kansas City has proven to be questionable at best. So why do I want Carl to abdicate? Because Whitlock told me to? Because other posters feel the same way? Because he reminds me of my great-uncle Dan who was a total asshole? No. I stand with the "Carl Sucks" contingent because, as we've already discussed, he has not produced results consistent with my expectations as a fan.

I wonder, do you criticize those that disagree with you by insulting their profession or calling them names? Do you find it easier to find scapegoats than to conduct an intellectual investigation for objective results? Most importantly, does it make you feel like a bigger person if you can denegrate others? In other words, have you ever mentally escaped the sixth grade? If so, then why do you hang out whith those that think it hilarious to demonstrate they haven't? You will be judged by the company you keep.

When have you ever heard me do such a thing? Anything even remotely similar to the behavior you describe? Do you have the right poster, here?



luz
you can post, read, and enjoy without aligning with those that choose self imposed ignorance...

Thanks for the advice, Mr. Luzap.

FAX

FAX
01-08-2008, 01:16 PM
.. Fax is one of the most respected posters on this board ....

Yeah. So there.

FAX

kstater
01-08-2008, 01:18 PM
Without cluttering up the thread by quoting it,

AWESOME post Mr. FAX

Scorp
01-08-2008, 01:54 PM
Luzap = teh gay

Fax = teh sh!t

Luzap
01-08-2008, 02:43 PM
I thought we were having a real conversation, Mr. Luzap. For my part, a very enjoyable one, as well. Honestly, you don't find it somewhat amusing when someone continues to argue over a point on which they already have agreement? That's SNL stuff, peep.



No question. Although some people would counsel that one actually "makes" his or her own luck ... by consistently putting themselves in a position to take advantage of opportunities as they are presented. Given that, one would have to ask, has Carl made the most of his opportunities (in terms of football, I mean)? That's debatable, but honestly difficult to judge if you're being truly objective about it.



I don't know if the Chiefs are snakebit, or not. To be honest, I've often wondered about that, but I now view the whole "bad luck", "bad timing", "black cloud", "bad injuries", "worse weather" mantras as just more excuses because those things even out over time. We both know that every other team in the NFL faces the same obstacles. Some of them, however, overcome these problems and most of them have overcome them far better than our Chiefs have done. As for Carl's ability to produce Super Bowl caliber teams, I'll gladly step up to that one on this basis ... the only true test as to whether or not a GM has fielded a Super Bowl caliber team is if that team actually makes it to the Super Bowl. That, I believe, is why they play the game.



I'm not certain that it's "credit" I seek, Mr. Luzap, although I would feel no shame in agreeing with you at any time or on any subject. I've always considered you to be a very intelligent and thoughtful poster - one of my hero posters, in fact - from my early N00b (sp?) days. Perhaps this sense you're expressing that our like-mindedness is somehow super-extra-special-important to me, is based on my comments of concern that you seem to want to argue about items on which we appear to have agreement. I'm not sure you've used the thread link I posted, for example. It's troubling because it makes me think that you're not reading my posts. That thread was posted long before this one and, essentially, discusses my own positive feelings about some of the changes being implemented. So, if you want to be perfectly accurate about the matter, many of your points demonstrate an agreement with me and you should feel darn good about that.

As for the "Carl Sucks" crowd, everyone has a right to their opinion, as I'm sure you appreciate. Granted, it's sometimes difficult to maintain one's composure in the face of rampant idiocy, but it's good for the soul. For my part, I align myself with the basic "Carl Sucks" concept in the sense that his ability to bring a championship to Kansas City has proven to be questionable at best. So why do I want Carl to abdicate? Because Whitlock told me to? Because other posters feel the same way? Because he reminds me of my great-uncle Dan who was a total asshole? No. I stand with the "Carl Sucks" contingent because, as we've already discussed, he has not produced results consistent with my expectations as a fan.



When have you ever heard me do such a thing? Anything even remotely similar to the behavior you describe? Do you have the right poster, here?



Thanks for the advice, Mr. Luzap.

FAX

Fax,

Great post and great reply.

FYI ~ the second to last quote you site is not accussing you of those behaviors... it is asking why you don't seperate yourself from those that do.

Luz
btw ~ i have read the post you cited and it is one of the major reasons i pursued dialogue with you...

Scorp
01-08-2008, 02:53 PM
btw ~ i have read the post you cited and it is one of the major reasons i pursued dialogue with you...


You just want to have Fax's lovechild you sicko!

dirk digler
01-08-2008, 03:03 PM
Dirk,

I disagree with your assessment (and I'm far from alone in this). I'm not going to take the time to look up the years, but when Linn Elliott killed us in the playoffs, and when we again lost to Denver in their Super Bowl year, most agree that we had championship calibur teams (as a matter of fact, if it wasn't for a phantom holding call that negated a Gonzales TD, most feel we would have gone to that Super Bowl instead of Denver). I don't know where you heard this 'never fielded a complete team' stuff, but it is totally inacurate.

As for my dialogue with Fax ~ read it again. It is commenting far more on those around Fax than it is commenting on Fax himself.

Luz
you just can't have a discussion on this issue without denegrating someone, can you???...

Luzap:

We can agree to disagree then.

1995 we were 14th in O and 2 in D
1997 we were 14th in O and 11 in D
2003 we were 1 in O and 29th in D

The 97 team was the best team we fielded and we could agree that if they would have started Gannon over Grbac we might have won but we didn't.

The 95 team completely lived off turnovers and during the playoffs we got none and we lost.

I will say this I can have a perfectly normal discussion without denegrating someone as long as they do the same. IMHO you come across as pompous and arrogant and maybe that is not what you intend to do but it does come across that way. Just my .02 cents

dirk digler
01-08-2008, 03:07 PM
The 1995 team was definitely not Super Bowl caliber. They were incredibly lucky that year and pulled several wins completely out of their ass.

Again, 97 was close, but clearly just short.

By the way, "complete" teams are top 10 in both offense and defense. The Chiefs have never fielded such a team under Carl.

I agree with you on 95.

In all fairness though the Pats have never had both their O and D in the Top 10 until this year when the won the SB

But IMHO stats don't tell the whole story about fielding a complete SB team. Alot more goes into that.

FAX
01-08-2008, 03:14 PM
... FYI ~ the second to last quote you site is not accussing you of those behaviors... it is asking why you don't seperate yourself from those that do. ...

Clearly, Carl has fostered more than his fair share of animosity, Mr. Luzap. As we've discussed, it is my view that some of it is deserved. But I think you're right that much of this venom is simply media pap for the masses. I imagine that dissing the GM on the air probably builds ratings and sponsors more listener calls. Carl wears big boy pants, though, and he can take care of himself.

Personally, I hope that Carl and Herm can pull this thing off. I mean, the alternative is practically unthinkable. And, when you consider what we know of "The Plan" and take into account our current situation, it doesn't sound so terrible. Heck, you might say that it actually makes sense. I'm just unconvinced that these two guys are the right men for the job. We'll see.

I know this, though, the fan base and the media will be overly impatient no matter what happens. We've already seen that with Croyle. And the stage is set for some serious, over-the-top bitching if the Chiefs don't get off to a decent start next year. That part is very unfortunate.

That's why (and returning to the original topic), I think Gretz would be better served talking about why we should have confidence in the upside potential of guys like Bowe and Croyle rather than insulting the fans' language skills. Since the Chiefs are forced to think about the future, Gretz could help by giving us a rationale for why that future could be brighter.

FAX

HemiEd
01-08-2008, 03:22 PM
.

ChiTown
01-08-2008, 03:26 PM
.

:deevee:

chagrin
01-08-2008, 07:05 PM
If someone from here actually sent this you deserve rep supreme...

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2008/01/07/gretz_dipping_in_the_mailbag/

From Jeff: “In response to your maybe the fan base needs to be rebuilt garbage. Maybe you need to pull your head out of King Carl’s *&^##. I am tired of you putting the blame on everyone else except where it belongs. King Carl is to blame for the Chiefs lack of playoff appearances … the only thing that will turn the Chiefs around is sending your master packing. Then hopefully us real fans won’t have to be insulted by the crap you peck with your sausage fingers.”

Sausage fingers? Jeff, have you ever seen my fingers? I didn’t think so.

If you had actually read what I’ve written all year, you would understand that I’ve placed all the blame for this season on Peterson. The Chiefs went 4-12 because of lack of talent. Peterson is responsible for providing Herm Edwards talent. It’s not there and that’s his fault.

Now, maybe you can get the people at the home to read you my columns again. Obviously, you are having problems understanding the written English. Maybe they can back off the medications a little bit and it will assuage your angry soul.

Or maybe you should just have another order of sausage.

Why is it that anytime a person reacts with a little aggressiveness, they are crazy? Geesh

chagrin
01-08-2008, 07:06 PM
.

bastard!!!

:cuss:

beach tribe
01-08-2008, 07:44 PM
Dirk,

I disagree with your assessment (and I'm far from alone in this). I'm not going to take the time to look up the years, but when Linn Elliott killed us in the playoffs, and when we again lost to Denver in their Super Bowl year, most agree that we had championship calibur teams (as a matter of fact, if it wasn't for a phantom holding call that negated a Gonzales TD, most feel we would have gone to that Super Bowl instead of Denver). I don't know where you heard this 'never fielded a complete team' stuff, but it is totally inacurate.

As for my dialogue with Fax ~ read it again. It is commenting far more on those around Fax than it is commenting on Fax himself.

Luz
you just can't have a discussion on this issue without denegrating someone, can you???...
Dude if you don't know the year Elliot missed that kick STFU.