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View Full Version : Pats have bulletin board material from the Jags. Didn't work out so well for Pitt.


BigRedChief
01-07-2008, 11:59 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs07/news/story?id=3184960

If the undefeated Patriots need bulletin board material for their playoff game Saturday night against the Jaguars, they have it now.

If Jacksonville defensive lineman Paul Spicer (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4973) had his way, the Patriots wouldn't have even qualified for the playoffs because of the Spygate scandal.

"Do like the NCAA and kick them out of the playoffs or something," Spicer told The Associated Press after news of the scandal broke. "Put them on probation; they can't go to no playoff games. Roger Goodell has definitely enforced some new rules. He's been hard on players. Now let's see how hard he's going to be with a team."

The Patriots lost their 2008 first-round draft pick, the team was fined $250,000 and Bill Belichick was docked $500,000 as a result of the scandal, in which they were caught videotaping New York Jets (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=nyj) coaches' signals during the teams' Week 1 matchup. New England still has one 2008 first-round pick as a result of their trade with the San Francisco 49ers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=sfo) during the 2007 draft.

"This ain't news. I've heard it in the past. They finally got caught. The Patriots got caught. They're busted," he also told the AP at the time.

Appearing on ESPN2's First Take on Monday morning, Spicer stood by his comments.

"I don't regret saying what I said. I'm a man of my word. I always speak my mind and that's what I felt at that time," Spicer said.

In the long run, Spicer said Spygate doesn't matter when it comes to Saturday night's playoff game.
"It doesn't really matter ... What matters is getting out there and playing football. It still comes down to catching the football, tackling, blocking."

Spicer said he wasn't worried about giving the Patriots added motivation for their playoff game.
"If they got to bring up something said so long ago, let that be their motivational tool," he said.

Halfcan
01-07-2008, 12:00 PM
Lets go Jags!!

Pushead2
01-07-2008, 12:02 PM
When will people learn and just the **** up when facing these guys???

BigRedChief
01-07-2008, 12:03 PM
When will people learn and just the **** up when facing these guys???
He didn't say it this week but when the spygate story broke.

DaKCMan AP
01-07-2008, 12:04 PM
Fred Taylor, Reggie Nelson, Bobby McCray, Mike Peterson and Jeremy Mincy

vs

Jabar Gaffney and Chad Jackson

BigRedChief
01-07-2008, 12:04 PM
Lets go Jags!!
You really think they have a chance just because they can run the ball?

Reerun_KC
01-07-2008, 12:05 PM
Lets go Jags!!
Why? NE is everything we dream the Chiefs could be....

Stop being so jealous... :shake:

Cochise
01-07-2008, 12:09 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with him

Pushead2
01-07-2008, 12:15 PM
He didn't say it this week but when the spygate story broke.

I stand corrected. carry on..

el borracho
01-07-2008, 12:19 PM
I hope the Jags win by 40! (but understand that just the opposite is much more likely)

Direckshun
01-07-2008, 12:21 PM
Wow, the media really wants the Jags to lose.

Cochise
01-07-2008, 12:23 PM
Everybody here was in favor of Merriman being banned from the pro bowl for cheating. Why shouldn't teams be banned from the postseason for cheating?

You'd need a list of bannable offenses, but I don't see why they should be there after being caught cheating.

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 12:23 PM
Why? NE is everything we dream the Chiefs could be....

Stop being so jealous... :shake:

They have also had a lot of luck on their side. The Ravens had the game won, literally, but that ****ing timeout! :mad:

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 12:24 PM
When will people learn and just the **** up when facing these guys???

Never, hopefully... :evil:

Simply Red
01-07-2008, 12:24 PM
Keep fuggin doubting Jax!

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 12:27 PM
Everybody here was in favor of "roidman" Merriman being banned from the pro bowl for cheating. Why shouldn't teams be banned from the postseason for cheating?

You'd need a list of bannable offenses, but I don't see why they should be there after being caught cheating.

Even if the cheating didn't give them a single win this season, and as far as anyone can tell didn't affect absolutely anything that happened in 2007?

Even though that penalty has never been used before, EVER, or even discussed or suggested before?

Even if it's completely disproportionate to the crime?

Remind me never to vote for you as a judge. Your concept of justice leaves me a bit cold. The Pats already got the heaviest penalties ever levied on a team. That 1st round pick is the gift that keeps giving -- it's a very good player for cheap $$$ that we won't have for YEARS....

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 12:28 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with him

Me either. The punishment was not severe enough, they should have lost the SF pick, maybe even banished from the post season.
Also, I don't believe for one minute that Belichick isn't having his $500,000 fine picked up by the Patriots.
Oh and $250,000 to the Patriots has to be chump change.

(HemiEd ducking for cover before Amnorix gets here.)

Cochise
01-07-2008, 12:29 PM
Even if the cheating didn't give them a single win this season, and as far as anyone can tell didn't affect absolutely anything that happened in 2007?

Even though that penalty has never been used before, EVER, or even discussed or suggested before?

Even if it's completely disproportionate to the crime?

Remind me never to vote for you as a judge. Your concept of justice leaves me a bit cold. The Pats already got the heaviest penalties ever levied on a team. That 1st round pick is the gift that keeps giving -- it's a very good player for cheap $$$ that we won't have for YEARS....

The league doesn't have predefined conventions for handling this situation because it's pretty much unprecedented. But they ought to have machines in place to handle cheating on an organizational scale that includes not only penalizing draft picks but banning from the postseason too. Look back at the Denver Broncos, they were found to have cheated the salary cap in their Super Bowl seasons, and what happened to them? Nothing. They lost a middle round pick, and gained two Lombardi trophies. Perfectly acceptable risk.

But anyway, I think this is a situation where we have a team that's deserving of a ban from the postseason. You can't do it, because the structure isn't already in place I don't think, but should they be there? No.

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 12:33 PM
Me either. The punishment was not severe enough, they should have lost the SF pick, maybe even banished from the post season.
Also, I don't believe for one minute that Belichick isn't having his $500,000 fine picked up by the Patriots.
Oh and $250,000 to the Patriots has to be chump change.

(HemiEd ducking for cover before Amnorix gets here.)

Too late. :D

Seriously -- would you say this if it was the Chiefs.

Seriously, do you think that they got any kind of significant advantage from this videotaping business, or was it just 1/1000000th of a % advantage kind of thing?

Seriously, do you think nobody else in the NFL did this stuff?

The Pats got their hands caught in the cookie jar. They got a very serious punishment. Their coach was punished, and the team was punished. That 1st round pick HURTS like hell.

All this for what is more than likely something that is technically cheating, I agree, but hardly impacts anything on the field. Just BB looking for every little edge, and this one was almost certainly miniscule.

el borracho
01-07-2008, 12:33 PM
Even if the cheating didn't give them a single win this season, and as far as anyone can tell didn't affect absolutely anything that happened in 2007?
Oh, come on now... if it wasn't helpful, they would not have done it.

BigRedChief
01-07-2008, 12:36 PM
Oh, come on now... if it wasn't helpful, they would not have done it.But still if you are not changing up your signals thats your fault. Baseball tapes signals on a daily basis. no one ever whines because they are no good the next day. Just change the frigging indicator and the order.

Sure-Oz
01-07-2008, 12:36 PM
Go Jags, im sick of the media slobbing brady and mosses knob. JAX might be the only team that could knock them off or Indy.

eazyb81
01-07-2008, 12:38 PM
Wow, the media really wants the Jags to lose.

No kidding, this is hardly bulletin-board material.

el borracho
01-07-2008, 12:39 PM
But still if you are not changing up your signals thats your fault. Baseball tapes signals on a daily basis. no one ever whines because they are no good the next day. Just change the frigging indicator and the order.
Who cares what they do in baseball? We are talking about football. I guess the next time I get pulled over for speeding on a city street I should be excused because in NASCAR they go really fast all the time.

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 12:40 PM
The league doesn't have predefined conventions for handling this situation because it's pretty much unprecedented. But they ought to have machines in place to handle cheating on an organizational scale that includes not only penalizing draft picks but banning from the postseason too. Look back at the Denver Broncos, they were found to have cheated the salary cap in their Super Bowl seasons, and what happened to them? Nothing. They lost a middle round pick, and gained two Lombardi trophies. Perfectly acceptable risk.

But anyway, I think this is a situation where we have a team that's deserving of a ban from the postseason. You can't do it, because the structure isn't already in place I don't think, but should they be there? No.

What's cheating on an organizational scale? Is it cheating if a team constantly uses rubs (better known as picks) on its route running like the old Bill Walsh teams did? I mean, it was clearly an organizational sanctioned way of pushing the boundaries of the rules to gain an advantage, even though it was technically impermissible....

What about cranking up the heat in a dome?

Piping in sound?

stealing signals from the other sideline?

What if it's an honest difference of opinion over what the rule really is, or whether certain conduct is covered?

And, p.s., name me one professional sport that has EVER handed down that kind of penalty to a team....

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 12:42 PM
Oh, come on now... if it wasn't helpful, they would not have done it.

Right, I agree. But how helpful was it? Especially when other teams KNOW you're doing it? Jimmy Johnson mentioned that he learned to tape signals in the EXACT same way by a Chiefs scout waaaay back when. Do you think this is some new-fangled idea BB had, or has it been around for 30+ years?

Should hte Patriots have to fall on their sword for technical illegalities that have been going on since the dawn of videotape technology, that has been used by many around in the NFL since then?

Cochise
01-07-2008, 12:43 PM
What's cheating on an organizational scale? Is it cheating if a team constantly uses rubs (better known as picks) on its route running like the old Bill Walsh teams did?

What does doing things that are permitted by the rules have to do with cheating?

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 12:46 PM
Too late. :D

Seriously -- would you say this if it was the Chiefs.

Seriously, do you think that they got any kind of significant advantage from this videotaping business, or was it just 1/1000000th of a % advantage kind of thing?

Seriously, do you think nobody else in the NFL did this stuff?

The Pats got their hands caught in the cookie jar. They got a very serious punishment. Their coach was punished, and the team was punished. That 1st round pick HURTS like hell.

All this for what is more than likely something that is technically cheating, I agree, but hardly impacts anything on the field. Just BB looking for every little edge, and this one was almost certainly miniscule.

Oh hell no, that would be different if it was the Chiefs. Call it envy! :D You have the best quarterback to ever call a signal. Assholes! :cuss: Oh and you are the media darlings! :cuss:

Sure-Oz
01-07-2008, 12:48 PM
Oh hell no, that would be different if it was the Chiefs. Call it envy! :D You have the best quarterback to ever call a signal. Assholes! :cuss: Oh and you are the media darlings! :cuss:
He's probably THE best at getting supermodels knocked up.

Demonpenz
01-07-2008, 12:50 PM
jacksonville can out hit the patriots that is what gives them a chance

eazyb81
01-07-2008, 12:54 PM
He's probably THE best at getting supermodels knocked up.

I'd like to challenge him for that award.

el borracho
01-07-2008, 12:54 PM
Right, I agree. But how helpful was it? Especially when other teams KNOW you're doing it? Jimmy Johnson mentioned that he learned to tape signals in the EXACT same way by a Chiefs scout waaaay back when. Do you think this is some new-fangled idea BB had, or has it been around for 30+ years?

Should hte Patriots have to fall on their sword for technical illegalities that have been going on since the dawn of videotape technology, that has been used by many around in the NFL since then?
If you get caught breaking the rules, you pay the penalty; that is the way the world works. "Everyone else is doing it, too" is not a valid excuse, IMO.

By the way, I don't necessarily think the Pats should have been banned from the postseason (punishes the fans more than the organization) but I think Belichek should have faced harsher penalties since he is (at least in theory) the most responsible party. If I were Goodell, Belichek would have been suspended for a year and been allowed no contact with the team.

StcChief
01-07-2008, 01:04 PM
a nasty windy day favors Jags.
pound the rock

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 01:05 PM
He's probably THE best at getting supermodels knocked up.

That too, but I really think if he got injured the Pats would be pretty average.

stonedstooge
01-07-2008, 01:06 PM
Who said that the Pats didn't copy the tapes before they turned them over. I don't buy the everyone's doing it line. The Chiefs are safe though without someone taping them. I doubt if any of their coaches could come up with a new set of signals and remember them come game time. Herm definitely couldn't. So I'm sure they use the same signals every game. First down the coach yells out "Run the ball" Second down coach hollers out "Run the ball" Third down coach hollers out "Throw a short pass" Then its " O.K. everyone on the punting team get out there"

Chief Chief
01-07-2008, 01:13 PM
"Do like the NCAA and kick them out of the playoffs or something," Spicer told The Associated Press after news of the scandal broke. "Put them on probation; they can't go to no playoff games.[/b] Roger Goodell has definitely enforced some new rules. He's been hard on players. Now let's see how hard he's going to be with a team."

Roger Goodell, following the example set by Dean Wormer, did place the Pats on "double secret probation" earlier this season.

Angered by this announcement, Tedy Bruschi immediately rallied the team by saying "Over? Did you say over? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!".

And the rest of the season is, as they say, history.

As for Spicer, all Goodell now has to say to him is: "Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 01:19 PM
What does doing things that are permitted by the rules have to do with cheating?

Picks are not legal, and are subject to a penalty. It's fairly rare to call them, however, so all NFL teams use them to a greater or lesser degree.

It's not really that far from Denver's cut blocking, except a bit less dangerous of course. There's game film of one Patriots game -- can't remember who, within the last couple years where Belichick is absolutely SCREAMING at the officials "IT'S A PICK!!!". He was irate.

Obviously, it's up to the refs to call it, but it's all shades of gray. When you're intentionally coaching and using plays that are rules infractions, what is that? Cheating? Aggressive coaching? Taking advantage of referee tendencies? Smart? All of the above?

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 01:20 PM
jacksonville can out hit the patriots that is what gives them a chance

We'll see, but I doubt it. Been a while since the Pats got outhit. One game this year they were physically outmuscled. It's rare as hell... Pats are big, strong and smart.

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 01:27 PM
If you get caught breaking the rules, you pay the penalty; that is the way the world works. "Everyone else is doing it, too" is not a valid excuse, IMO.

I do tend to agree. This argument is more about what the right penalty is. What some are suggesting is so ridiculously over the top as to be a complete joke.

By the way, I don't necessarily think the Pats should have been banned from the postseason (punishes the fans more than the organization) but I think Belichek should have faced harsher penalties since he is (at least in theory) the most responsible party. If I were Goodell, Belichek would have been suspended for a year and been allowed no contact with the team.

What is the basis of your assessing this penalty, as it seems completely out of whack to the advantage gained. You seem to just want a feel good solution. He was bad, so he should get this humongous punishment. It's not like he ordered his defensive players to take out Peyton Manning's knees at all costs. THAT is what I would think might warrant the kind of absurd penalty you are talking about.

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 01:29 PM
That too, but I really think if he got injured the Pats would be pretty average.

What team would be much better than average with a backup QB calling the shots?

HemiEd
01-07-2008, 01:33 PM
What team would be much better than average with a backup QB calling the shots?

I not arguing that, but the fact that Brady makes the team great speaks for his capabilities.

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 01:37 PM
a nasty windy day favors Jags.
pound the rock

That is true. About the only shot they have at winning.

Unfortunately for Jax, extended forecast shows clear and chilly, but nothing that will affect our passing attack.

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 01:37 PM
I not arguing that, but the fact that Brady makes the team great speaks for his capabilities.

Yeah, it doesn't suck that we have the best QB on planet earth, I will grant you that. :D

TEX
01-07-2008, 01:41 PM
GO JAGS!

Ecto-I
01-07-2008, 01:48 PM
The Jags can't lose with MIKE PETERSON at linebacker! :)

FAX
01-07-2008, 01:52 PM
Yeah, it doesn't suck that we have the best QB on planet earth, I will grant you that. :D

But, doesn't the fact that your team is a bunch of cheaters take some of the joy out of that, Mr. Amnorix?

FAX

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 02:02 PM
The Jags can't lose with MIKE PETERSON at linebacker! :)

errr...is he playing this week? Thought he had a broken something or other...?

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 02:03 PM
But, doesn't the fact that your team is a bunch of cheaters take some of the joy out of that, Mr. Amnorix?

FAX

I don't believe that, nor do I think that the rules violation they incurred was a highly significant one. Nor, finally, do I think it affected anything at all that happened here in 2007, except perhaps to psychologically goad the team to greater heights.

Spott
01-07-2008, 03:07 PM
errr...is he playing this week? Thought he had a broken something or other...?


He is probably not playing this week. Henderson may not be playing either.

Anyone claiming that any of the Pats victories were because of cheating are a bunch of whiny bitches.

RP_McMurphy
01-07-2008, 03:31 PM
Except Brady getting sacked..........The Jaguars are used to pretty boy quarterbacks with Peyton in our division.

That is true. About the only shot they have at winning.

Unfortunately for Jax, extended forecast shows clear and chilly, but nothing that will affect our passing attack.

beach tribe
01-07-2008, 03:36 PM
Go Jags!!

Who cares about the damn video tapes.
They went 16-0 without them.

Mecca
01-07-2008, 03:45 PM
If the team that leads the league in sacks in the Giants couldn't hammer Brady with 2 backup linemen in...why the hell should anyone think the Jags can do it?

beach tribe
01-07-2008, 03:48 PM
If the team that leads the league in sacks in the Giants couldn't hammer Brady with 2 backup linemen in...why the hell should anyone think the Jags can do it?
They won't, but they have a better chance to knock em off than Baltimore.

ClevelandBronco
01-07-2008, 04:17 PM
Pats by 102.

Priest4Prez
01-07-2008, 04:33 PM
Pats will win, but it will be a lot funnier when the colts knock them out in the championship game (again)

el borracho
01-07-2008, 05:07 PM
What is the basis of your assessing this penalty, as it seems completely out of whack to the advantage gained. You seem to just want a feel good solution. He was bad, so he should get this humongous punishment. It's not like he ordered his defensive players to take out Peyton Manning's knees at all costs. THAT is what I would think might warrant the kind of absurd penalty you are talking about.a) The penalty is based on what I consider a big effin deal- years of cheating orchestrated by the head coach.

b) You and I don't really know how much advantage was gained so I don't see how you can legitimately suggest that anything is out-of-whack. IIRC, the Patriots were previously warned by the league and continued to cheat. Apparently, the Patriots thought the advantage gained was worth risking reputation and penalty to achieve. Why should I believe different?

c) Who doesn't want a "feel good" situation?

d) One year suspension for ordering the injury of another player? If any coach ordered a player to injure another player I would recommend they be banned from the sport for life.

Spott
01-07-2008, 06:24 PM
Except Brady getting sacked..........The Jaguars are used to pretty boy quarterbacks with Peyton in our division.


They are also pretty used to losing to those pretty boy QB's.

BigRedChief
01-07-2008, 06:28 PM
They are also pretty used to losing to those pretty boy QB's.
ROFL rep

Demonpenz
01-07-2008, 06:47 PM
the jags can pound the rock and play defense those things are deadly in the playoffs

Guru
01-07-2008, 07:54 PM
So tired of hearing about this "cheating". Every team does this in some form.

Amnorix
01-07-2008, 08:09 PM
Except Brady getting sacked..........The Jaguars are used to losing to pretty boy quarterbacks with Peyton in our division.

FYP

Sully
01-07-2008, 08:22 PM
Anyone claiming that any of the Pats victories were because of cheating are a bunch of whiny bitches.
I agree.

Mecca
01-07-2008, 09:20 PM
Pats will win, but it will be a lot funnier when the colts knock them out in the championship game (again)

Because the Colts have had so much success against the Pats...what is that now 1-5?

KCrockaholic
01-07-2008, 09:22 PM
ive said all year long that the only team that cant beat NE is jacksonville...well now is that chance. they will put up a hell of a fight though. guarantee it

Mecca
01-07-2008, 09:23 PM
I want to know why anyone thinks Jacksonville is "the team" to beat the Pats when they struggle like hell with the Colts every single year...they've shown time and time again if you can score a lot of points they have a hard time with you..

It's why they can't win their division.

Bump
01-07-2008, 09:35 PM
so what was the trade with the Pats & 49ers? I forgot what happened there, how did the Pats get the 49ers pick again?

Mecca
01-07-2008, 09:39 PM
so what was the trade with the Pats & 49ers? I forgot what happened there, how did the Pats get the 49ers pick again?

Draft day trade, they traded out of pick 28 so the 49ers could come up and get Joe Staley in return the Pats got next years 1st and a 4th...the 4th turned into Moss.

Bump
01-07-2008, 09:41 PM
Draft day trade, they traded out of pick 28 so the 49ers could come up and get Joe Staley in return the Pats got next years 1st and a 4th...the 4th turned into Moss.

oh, ok thanks! I think the Pats got the better end of that deal. I wish we had a GM who knew how to work it. Good thing the Pats got their original pick taken away from them or it just wouldn't be fair!!

MadMax
01-07-2008, 09:44 PM
What team would be much better than average with a backup QB calling the shots?


Why the Chiefies of course cause that gives Mr. Huard the chance to display his awesome prowess and fetal moves.. :) " according to some "

Mecca
01-07-2008, 09:44 PM
They're gonna get picks back anyway, they'll be trading down I suspect.

They'll look at CB's and LB's.

MadMax
01-07-2008, 09:45 PM
Draft day trade, they traded out of pick 28 so the 49ers could come up and get Joe Staley in return the Pats got next years 1st and a 4th...the 4th turned into Moss.


Just another reason to HATE the retarded 44 niners

BigRedChief
01-08-2008, 05:55 AM
oh, ok thanks! I think the Pats got the better end of that deal. I wish we had a GM who knew how to work it. Good thing the Pats got their original pick taken away from them or it just wouldn't be fair!!
NFL Rule 101: Never make trades with the Pats. You will only end up looking bad.

Amnorix
01-08-2008, 06:38 AM
NFL Rule 101: Never make trades with the Pats. You will only end up looking bad.

I'd say we've evened the scorecard from the deal that gave away the pick that was used to take Jerry Rice. :banghead: Of course, even if we'd kep the pick, I doubt we would've taken Rice anyway.

The Patriots with their long term outlook take advantage of other team's desperation to win now. They mortgage the future for the present, and we're the happy banker collecting the profits.

cadmonkey
01-08-2008, 06:53 AM
The weather in New England on saturday are looking very nice for our passing game. High 40s to low 50 most of the day then cooling down to the upper 30's and no snow anywhere in sight.