Religion Survey [Archive]

Chieficus

01-07-2008, 05:24 PM

Ugly Duck

01-07-2008, 05:36 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian? No

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? No

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ? A guy

4. What is your opinion of the Bible? A primitive attempt of ancient man to explain what he didn't understand

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world? Both good stuff and bad stuff happens

6. What is your opinion of churches in general? They should have their tax exempt status revoked, but they provide a nice place for townsfolk to get together in community spirit.

HolmeZz

01-07-2008, 05:37 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

I am agnostic.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

I don't know if a higher power does exist. I don't believe the universe revolves around the human species though.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

A false prophet.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

I don't think it should be taken literally, but I have no problem with it being used as a blueprint for the way people live most of their lives(it definitely has it's negative messages IMO)

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Couldn't point to anything specific other than just negative experiences in people's formative years. Everyone's born with the potential to be good.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

I have no problem with places of worship and when I'm in one I respect the traditions and rituals that go with it.

Hydrae

01-07-2008, 05:45 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

No, agnostic. Grew up Baptist

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

Yes, there is a higher power of some kind that started this mess. I just can not believe it is ALL chance.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

Intersting fellow who spawned a belief system that continues to this day.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

An excellent guide to living in peace with others.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Human nature

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

Organized religion is what drove me away from the faith I grew up with. I think they are great for those who believe to unite with others who share those beliefs. I also feel churches do a lot of good for thier communities and would be more than able to step in when (I can dream) welfare is ended.

BucEyedPea

01-07-2008, 05:48 PM

Wow Hydrae, I'm not agnostic but the rest of your post is what I believe too.

penchief

01-07-2008, 05:49 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

No

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

It's hard not to believe in a higher power. However, I have zero knowledge of God existing. I have no way of knowing if he/she/it exists.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

A religious icon who apparently spent time on earth and who preached the kind of humanity I that any true liberal would agree with.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

Hard to get into until you get to the Jesus part.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Because people are greedy selfish assholes.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

IMO, community churches are one of the biggest avenues by which Christ's teachings are actually carried out. On the other hand, I believe that organized religion is one of the biggest evils facing humanity.

Chieficus

01-07-2008, 05:52 PM

Wow Hydrae, I'm not agnostic but the rest of your post is what I believe too.

Hmmm... so does that count as a reply??? :shrug:

:)

Hydrae

01-07-2008, 05:59 PM

Wow Hydrae, I'm not agnostic but the rest of your post is what I believe too.

That is interesting given my Baptist background and your Catholic background.

el borracho

01-07-2008, 06:28 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian? No

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? God as in the christian god?- No. God as in an intelligent creator of the universe?- probably.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ? a) A fictitional character (most likely) or b) a man like any other man (possible, but less likely)

4. What is your opinion of the Bible? A nice collection of stories similar to Aesop's Fables or any other mythology. I do think the bible makes reference to real people, places and events but it is largely a work of fiction. There is enough historical evidence to assure me that the bible is not the "word of god."

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world? I don't think evil exists in the world- evil only exists in our minds- it is a perception based on perspective.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general? I have a very low opinion of organized religion. I don't believe it is humanly possible to know or understand the will of a god. Historically, churches have done more harm than good.

BucEyedPea

01-07-2008, 06:30 PM

Hmmm... so does that count as a reply??? :shrug:

:)
Yes!

Jenson71

01-07-2008, 06:35 PM

1. Yes. Roman Catholic.

2. Yes. God is much of a mystery to me. I believe in the trinity: God is all Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God can not be proven or disproven. Requires faith to believe - even if the belief is rational, if you have "experienced God", it requires faith. Before anything, there was God. I have attempted to read a little on the philosophy of religion, and enjoy the theories of pragmatism and the role religion plays on us, but I believe the question of the existence of God will be in stalemate to humans forever.

3. Jesus Christ is the Son, both human and divine. Through Jesus, we come to God. Also see Jesus as an important philosopher and role model in our lives.

4. Important book. Created by humans - and, not the Divine Word of God, but through it, we can learn of God. Helped shape Western Civilization and beyond. Inspires people for Good. Also, unfortunately, used to manipulate people - bad and happens too often. Worthy of study and reading, even if you do not believe.

5. I don't know. It is a mystery.

6. Churches are an important part of our society and human existence. They are good when they bring people together, help other people in need, offer support. They are human institutions and can be corrupt. Unfortunately, there are many corrupt churches and church leaders. But in general, beautiful and good - like religion.

Sully

01-07-2008, 06:38 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

Yes. I am a protestant Christian.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

God exists. I don't think any description of God can do God justice, but I firmly believe our anthropomorphic view of God is wholly incorrect (thanks to Crab Man).

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

The son of God. A preacher of peace and compassion above all else.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

A great story. A decent history. Not infallible. Shamefully used as a weapon by people with preconceived agendas.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

For God to give free will, God had to give full free will, which, IMO, included not having a hand in shaping the good or bad of people on earth. Unfortunately, the pain some people feel on earth leads them to do horrible things, and it creates a pattern that is dificult to break, especially by those who have been raised in an environment where they have not known love.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

I am often skeptical of "churches in general" as my beliefs don't mesh with a majority of the more publicly aggressive churches. Many of those churches not only disagree with some of my views, but very specifically and purposely make sure there is no room within their walls for people who believe as I do.
Thanks...
You're Welcome

Adept Havelock

01-07-2008, 07:14 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?
No.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.
No. It's just mans attempt to explain things we can't comprehend by Science yet.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.
A mystic and political leader. I believe he was killed by the Romans for claiming he was a direct descendent of Solomon and thus had a legitimate claim to the throne of Israel. That was IMO a considerably greater threat to Roman authority than some wandering preacher.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?
An interesting collection of myths, histories, and philosophy, compiled and rewritten for a Roman audience, and reinterpreted many times since then.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?
Human nature, specifically Greed and Jealousy. We are simply conscious animals, which leads us to wanton cruelty lower animals would never conceive of.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?
Organized superstition is as silly to me as fearing 7 years bad luck because you broke a mirror. That said, if it makes people happy, I would deny no one whatever joy they might find in it. I only take issue when churches or their members take the position that I should have to live by their rules or beliefs, or when they insist on changing the very basis of Science, so their ID theories (or Geocentric universe, etc.) can be considered part of it.

BucEyedPea

01-07-2008, 07:17 PM

But you believe in magical mirrors?

Adept Havelock

01-07-2008, 07:19 PM

But you believe in magical mirrors?

No, I enjoy a specific piece of fiction about magical mirrors. ;)

BucEyedPea

01-07-2008, 07:23 PM

But, but you're Adept Havelock!

jk

Baby Lee

01-07-2008, 07:52 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?
Yes.
RLDS, technically now, Community of Christ.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.
Yes.
An unfathomable entity that exists irrespective of time and space, Alpha and Omega, from the beginning of time to the end, from one end of the universe to the other and beyond, equal in all places and moments, unchanged and unchanging. The architect of all.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.
The mortal embodiment of God offered in the meridian of time to provide salvation through example and sacrifice, and offer a new concept of salvation due to his sacrifice

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?
It is the inspired Word of God, given to us through inspired individuals as God's gift to provide us with proportion, a sense of history, inspiration and direction.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?
God's bestowal of agency, each person's right to choose his actions.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?
A little bit of a raw question right now. But I'd have to say they are mortal creations subject to entropy, and resulting apostacy.

Thanks...
You're welcome. . . :D

cdcox

01-07-2008, 09:57 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

Yes.

By virtue of my baptism (God's action to save me as an individual) I belong to the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I believe that the unaltered Augsburg Confession, because it is a true confessions of the teachings of the Bible, is the closest human expression of that one holy, catholic, and apostolic faith. In North America and at this time, despite all of her faults, it is my opinion that the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod most closely adheres to this confession in her doctrines, and to an increasingly less extent, her practice.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

Yes.

I believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

I believe that Jesus Christ, true God, begotten of the Father from eternity, and also true man, born of the Virgin Mary, is my Lord. Who has redeemed me, a lost and condemned person, purchased and won me from all sins, from death, and from the power of the devil; not with gold or silver, but with His holy, precious blood and with His innocent suffering and death, that I may be His own and live under Him in His kingdom and serve Him in everlasting righteousness, innocence, and blessedness, just as He is risen from the dead, lives and reigns to all eternity. This is most certainly true.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

I believe that the Bible (the 39 books of the OT and 27 books of the NT) is God-breathed and is the sole source of all teachings of the Christian faith.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Human sin (original sin) caused God's separation from man. Hell, the ultimate expression of evil, is nothing more (or less) than seaparation from God. Before sin, God and humankind had perfect unity with God. Sin ruined this unity. But because of the mercy of God, he did not withdraw completely from humans and the world. But all evil in the world is the result of separation from God.

The opposite question is equally valid. Why is there any good in the world? Only because of God's mercy and patience in the face of our sinful nature and deeds.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

The one true holy catholic and apostolic church is invisibe.

The visible church is found where ever those who confess Christ gather around Word (Bible reading, correct preaching and teaching) and Sacrament (Baptism, Holy Communion and the forgiveness of sins). The visible church is made up of both believers and unbelievers. Even the believers are both sinner and saint in this world and thus may appear hypocritical at times. The purity of teaching and administration of the sacrements is highly variable. One should seek a church where the teaching and administration of the sacrements is in accordance with Holy Scripture. As someone who does a poor job of living up to his Christian calling, I am less inclined to judge actions.

I judge churches, exactly the opposite of most people: creeds before deeds.

God (of whom my creed confesses) fixes my imperfect and evil deeds.

My deeds cannot save me from belief in a false God (creed).

irishjayhawk

01-07-2008, 10:39 PM

To anyone interested...

As some of you, with whom I have been in religious discussions before, know I'm a seminary graduate and pastor a church. I'm doing a personal research project to use with my church's congregation.

It is with a broader scope than just ChiefsPlanet, but I figure with the diversity of personalities/backgrounds we have here, it would be fun to include some opinions from here.

The topic has to do with viewpoints on some "basic" aspects of a Christian worldview.

I'm not looking to start a great debate thread, or see a bunch of bashing going on, etc., at least for this thread, I'm just interested in the raw data. Post if you will, help me out if you want... (if you don't want to post but would like to contribute, then you can PM me: I promise anonymity).

Six questions: (brevity but clarity are appreciated :) )

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

Thanks...

1) Was Catholic, now atheist. (In the extreme agnostic definition of it)
2) No. Absolutely not a shred of evidence for it.
3) A great politician/speaker. The Ghandi of his time.
4) What Ugly Duck said.
5) Truthfully, it's what Ugly Duck said. But I cannot help but insist that religious violence causes A LOT of it. (Crusades, Israel v Palestine, Shi'tes vs Sunnis, Pakistan, Christian Right etc)
6) What Ugly Duck said. Great place to commune but shouldn't be tax exempt.
6)

Mr. Flopnuts

01-07-2008, 11:05 PM

Wow Hydrae, I'm not agnostic but the rest of your post is what I believe too.

I thought an agnostic needed proof that there was a God to believe. Basically, didn't believe or disbelieve, just needed some kind of physical proof. If that's the case, how could you be agnostic and believe in God? Was physical proof found?

a1na2

01-07-2008, 11:08 PM

1) Was Catholic, now atheist. (In the extreme agnostic definition of it)
2) No. Absolutely not a shred of evidence for it.
3) A great politician/speaker. The Ghandi of his time.
4) What Ugly Duck said.
5) Truthfully, it's what Ugly Duck said. But I cannot help but insist that religious violence causes A LOT of it. (Crusades, Israel v Palestine, Shi'tes vs Sunnis, Pakistan, Christian Right etc)
6) What Ugly Duck said. Great place to commune but shouldn't be tax exempt.
6)

Dude, I really feel sorry for you.

irishjayhawk

01-07-2008, 11:09 PM

Dude, I really feel sorry for you.

I feel comforted. :)

Mr. Flopnuts

01-07-2008, 11:11 PM

Dude, I really feel sorry for you.

Couldn't help yourself could you?

HolmeZz

01-07-2008, 11:16 PM

Dude, I really feel sorry for you.

I'm sure he feels the same way about you.

Silock

01-07-2008, 11:18 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

Thanks...

1. Yes, Church of Christ (not to be confused with Church of Christ scientist)

2. Yes. Omnipotent, omniscient being. Not really sure what God is or where He came from, but with how little we know about the universe and why things like the Big Bang happened, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a being from another place is God.

3. Son of God on Earth

4. Word of God, often misinterpreted. Not everything was meant to be taken literally. However, too many people offer too broad of justification for their actions based off of TRANSLATIONS of the Bible that are often inaccurate when it comes to context.

5. It's the nature of free will.

6. Too many churches are superficial. They want you to come to church to be entertained. Too many people forget what church is for.

Silock

01-07-2008, 11:20 PM

Hard to get into until you get to the Jesus part.

Really? I think the Old Testament is way more interesting. People dying, wars, kings being overthrown. I dig it.

Mr. Flopnuts

01-07-2008, 11:24 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

No

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

God is perfection. Nothing more, nothing less.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

A very, very advanced soul

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

That it was an uplifting series of stories conveyed by imperfect men, based on their account of current events. It is also my opinion that it has been dramatically edited from its original form.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Freewill. We are animals. We are consumed by physical pleasure. Things that we can see, touch, taste, and feel. Instant gratification rules some men.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

They are filled with sinners. Some of whom are so fogged they can't see their hand in front of their face. Hypocritical, judgmental, and finger pointers, never taking the time to look in the mirror and save themselves.

Thanks...

My pleasure.

Cochise

01-07-2008, 11:36 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)? Yes; Reformed tradition.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them. Yes; He is the creator of the universe, eternal, unchanging, good and holy in every way.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ. God cloaked in human flesh; theanthropos; fully God and man. Not a created being, an aspect of the Godhead.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible? Inspired, sufficient alone to know God, reliable and inerrant in its original form.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world? The world came to be in its current state due to man's continued rejection of God. He allows us free will to allow us to choose him and preserve the authenticity of our relationship with him. He does have the power to prevent it when he chooses, and while his motives and methods are sometimes beyond our comprehension, they are ultimately good according to his nature.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general? I think there is a lot of error and misguided practice in churches today. I think they are more interested in growing membership sometimes than tending to those already in the fold. I think they are in some cases filled with people who are not actually converted. (I heard someone say once that Billy Graham had said he would be grateful if something like 5% of people in churches on Sunday were) I have also found recently when I have been exploring options a bit is that there are many out there that aren't really feeding the sheep, so to speak. There's a lot of pop psychology and not enough exposition, IMO

Mr. Flopnuts

01-07-2008, 11:43 PM

Not a created being, an aspect of the Godhead.

Aren't we all? I know most of you will say no. That in fact, is what I think we all are. I don't think there is a great analogy out there for this. The best I can come up with is, it's a dream.

irishjayhawk

01-07-2008, 11:44 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

No

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

God is perfection. Nothing more, nothing less.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

A very, very advanced soul

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

That it was an uplifting series of stories conveyed by imperfect men, based on their account of current events. It is also my opinion that it has been dramatically edited from its original form.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Freewill. We are animals. We are consumed by physical pleasure. Things that we can see, touch, taste, and feel. Instant gratification rules some men.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

They are filled with sinners. Some of whom are so fogged they can't see their hand in front of their face. Hypocritical, judgmental, and finger pointers, never taking the time to look in the mirror and save themselves.

My pleasure.

Uplifting? Can you explain? I'd grant you the NT that way, but surely not the OT.

Mr Luzcious

01-07-2008, 11:49 PM

My answers mirror Cochise's until 5, where I agree that free will is the reason, but in the past (the fall,) not the present. And as for 6, A God made institution that often goes awry, thanks to man.

Mr Luzcious

01-07-2008, 11:50 PM

Uplifting? Can you explain? I'd grant you the NT that way, but surely not the OT.

Well considering that they are both parts of the same story..

Cochise

01-07-2008, 11:53 PM

Uplifting? Can you explain? I'd grant you the NT that way, but surely not the OT.

The NT is the completion of the OT, in particular there are a lot of things in the OT that are types, events that foreshadow what is to come in the NT. It's hard to read through it without finding something that represents what is to come or illustrates some other truth that meshes with what is completed in the NT. The exile from eden, the passover, the exodus, the flood, etc etc. It all tells one cohesive story about man's position in relation to God because of his rebellion and God's provision for reconciliation.

Mr. Flopnuts

01-08-2008, 12:01 AM

Uplifting? Can you explain? I'd grant you the NT that way, but surely not the OT.

I guess what I mean is, to me, in order for something to be "uplifting" there must be something accomplished that is gratifying. There must be hope. Without sin, mistakes, vengeance, EVIL, demons, devils, and the like, there is not an opportunity for a lesson to be learned. There is not an opportunity for accomplishment. There is nothing to be hopeful for. You need the bad, to illustrate the good.

I don't believe the bible is "the word of God". I believe it's the word of man, in a time and place where great masses of people had direct access to a very spiritually advanced human being who was eager to give them insight, and knowledge into our purpose on this Earth. In order to accomplish that, Jesus had to speak to them in terms that they could understand. There is no gold, and treasures in heaven. You get nirvana which is infinately better. It just can't be understood by our evolved race now, how could it be understood then? It had to be told in terms of reward. Which is very uplifting, because it provides hope of accomplishing the goal.

alnorth

01-08-2008, 12:20 AM

1. No

2. No

3. Based on historical record, he very likely was a man who lived a couple thousand years ago, became a very popular sympathetic leader among the poor, up until he was killed before he could become any kind of a threat to the local rulers at the time.

4. A fictional story written by opportunists seeking power and influence. The original cynical creators of the religion gradually died out and were replaced by people who actually believed what the founders made up.

5. To the extent that "evil" exists at all, it is largely caused by either mentally damaged or highly immoral people. For the "immoral" people, I'm sure the environment they were raised in plays a part with some, but I also believe that there are probably just some people who were born to be very prone and susceptible to surrendering to their darkest urges. Call it an undiscovered "evil gene" of some kind. ;)

6. I am fine with most of them.

I am happy with my atheism, I have no fear of death, and I have no deep need to have comfort from knowing that there is a big ultimate reason to be good and selfless in an afterlife rather than just being good for its own sake. However, I also believe I am in the minority and there is no way to change it. Some rabid atheists seek to convert the world and get rid of religion, but I'm not one of them because I do believe most people do need religion.

In general, religion and their churches do many great and wonderful things, especially in this country. I believe they cause a lot of people to act "good" and "moral" moreso than they otherwise would without churches, and it is hard to ignore the vast generosity that comes from religious charities.

I believe that churches are a worthwhile part of our society that should be welcomed and tolerated, so long as they dont try to convert me, stigmatize me for lack of faith, kill me to go to heaven and 72 virgins, or discriminate against me for not being in their "invisible man in the sky" club.

Mr. Kotter

01-08-2008, 12:22 AM

...

Six questions: (brevity but clarity are appreciated :) )

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

Thanks...

1. I'm a practicing Christian(Protestant); but theologically and philosophically, I'm comfortable as a "deist."

2. Absolutely. All this ain't "chance" as rationalists/agnostics/atheists delude themselves into thinking, IMHO. God, IMHO, is a omnipotent and omniscient loving and caring guiding force in the universe, that probably bears little resemblance to the jealous and vengeful God of the Old Testament. I sure hope I'm right about this one, cause otherwise I might be screwed.

3. Son of God and man; savior to the (Western) world. His life and teachings do not, IMO, preclude the possibility that God chooses to reach out to other cultures in ethnocentric and culturally unique ways. I think it is extraordinarily arrogant on the part of Christians to claim to know all of God and Jesus's intentions....when so much of the Bible is subject, IMO, to interpretation.

4. The Bible is the inspired word of God. However, due to church and human manipulation (especially during the Dark and Middle Ages)....translation has become muddled though. The "church" during that time, was too bent on control and power....to grant people the real "truth." It remains a great handbook and guide on how one should live, but one must be careful and diligent as to the specifics and contradictions inherent in a text subject to interpretation and reinterpretations, IMHO.

5. Man is to blame for the vast majority of "evil" in the world, IMO. Free-will is a bitch, ain't it? Free-will, the depravity of humanity, and things left to be justified only in the mind of God...covers most of it, IMO. Reading and rereading Job, helped me to come to grips with this.

6. Churches are a vital, important, and underestimated asset in modern society. Whether as the vehicle which one chooses to aspire toward real self-actualization, as instruction and incentive to "do the right things" in life, or merely to provide fellowship and growth through the connections, friendships, and self-reflection inherent in experiences of most regularly "church-ed" folks....churches help to establish communities with a conscientious, moral, and introspective citizenry. And that, can never, be considered a "bad" thing, IMO--regardless of how many fruit cakes wanna dredge up the "Inquisition" or the "Crusades." Get a friggin' life, please.

Hope I didn't disappoint, Chieficus. ;)

Logical

01-08-2008, 12:25 AM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

Edit: I guess my answer is really no, as a Deist who was raised a Catholic, christian principles are a great influence on my beliefs but that I have decided does not make me a Christian. I am afraid I can never pass the Christian test of believing that only those who believe Jesus Christ is their savior can go to heaven. So in the end I cannot be considered a Christian.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

Yes, but I believe God exists in all things and is not an individual that can be described.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

I believe that Jesus was a great spiritual leader, I have my doubts about him being more than a prophet.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

A great book of parables that anyone would do well to help them lead a good life.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Two reasons; one humans have religion to use as a justification for their actions which has led and still leads to countless atrocities, two man is inately tempted to take the easy way out and that leads to evil to be used to promote greed and other of mans baser instincts.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

I think organized religions are basically bad, but some individual churches do much good by promoting community spirit and compassion.

Mr. Flopnuts

01-08-2008, 12:25 AM

I am happy with my atheism, I have no fear of death, and I have no deep need to have comfort from knowing that there is a big ultimate reason to be good and selfless in an afterlife rather than just being good for its own sake.

IMO, that in and of itself makes you more spiritually advanced than many believers. I know that doesn't mean much to you, and I mean you no offense. I'm just responding with my beliefs to your post.

Mr Luzcious

01-08-2008, 12:27 AM

What about you, Chieficus?

Ugly Duck

01-08-2008, 12:49 AM

Dude, I really feel sorry for you.

Interesting..... I found irishjayhawk's take to be brilliant!

Chieficus

01-08-2008, 01:00 AM

What about you, Chieficus?

Well, since I just created this thread as a survey I thought I would just kind of sit back and watch, but, what the heck... :)

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

I'm a Christian/follower of Jesus first, reformed second, and in the Baptist tradition third.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

Yes. He is the triune, personal God who is all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent; He is perfect love and perfect righteousness; abounding in grace and unfailing holy.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

The eternal son of God who took on a human nature to live as a perfect man and die a death that would provide salvation for all of His people. He is the eternal king, and the mighty one who is ready to judge the living and the dead. He is the living Word of God. He is also the way, the truth, and the life and He is the only hope for a sin-stained world.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

In the autographs it is the inerrant and infallible written Word of God (and what we have now is not that far off the originals, in a good translation) that points us to the Living Word and tells the story of His relationship to humanity in our creation, fall, and redemption.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Evil comes directly from the fall of man and the subsequent sins of every human; but I also believe that the fall was part of God's eternal plan to bring the greatest glory to Christ. The glory of Jesus is magnified through the cross: but without the fall there is no sin, without sin there is no need of a savior, and without the need of a savior there is no cross of Jesus.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

As a pastor, this one is going to be interesting: churches as a whole irk me. I think with our western capitalistic mindset we've in turn made the churches too business and program oriented. I think we've lost the overall attitude of true discipleship in a community of authentic faith that seeks to truly be "salt and light" to the world (Matthew 5) in our witness and good deeds. I think "professionalism" is killing the heart of the church and we need to break from that with a return to an idea in which we operate more like a family and have a boldness to live for Jesus day in and day out as we seek to meet people's needs both socially (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, helping the poor) and spiritually (pointing people to Christ as the way, truth, and life).

That's how I answer my survey... :)

BTW: a more general note, thanks again for everyone who replied so far, I've been working on moving stuff into my word document for assimilation (wow, I made that sound cold and mechanical!).

Everyone have a good night.

Jayhawkerman2001

01-08-2008, 01:58 AM

To anyone interested...

As some of you, with whom I have been in religious discussions before, know I'm a seminary graduate and pastor a church. I'm doing a personal research project to use with my church's congregation.

It is with a broader scope than just ChiefsPlanet, but I figure with the diversity of personalities/backgrounds we have here, it would be fun to include some opinions from here.

The topic has to do with viewpoints on some "basic" aspects of a Christian worldview.

I'm not looking to start a great debate thread, or see a bunch of bashing going on, etc., at least for this thread, I'm just interested in the raw data. Post if you will, help me out if you want... (if you don't want to post but would like to contribute, then you can PM me: I promise anonymity).

Six questions: (brevity but clarity are appreciated :) )

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

Thanks...

1. Not really
2. I believe in a higher power, but i believe it to be the earth
3. A man that did do good things, but not anything near what they said he did in the bible.
4. Was a novel about some stories that later on people saw as the writings of some god. In a couple thousand years I wonder if Steven King will be considered a god?
5. because innately people do things to help further their own wealth and health, be it through stomping on people to get there or by actually earning it. in other words, people are innately assholes.
6. horrible cult-like gathering areas where people act all funny like to appease some omnipresent power that doesn't exist. Also, in the past was used to scare the shit out of people to get them to do exactly what the church wanted them to do. they still do the same to this day, but people are fed up with it and not buying it.

SBK

01-08-2008, 02:42 AM

Mr. Flopnuts

01-08-2008, 02:52 AM

This is a fascinating thread for me to read. I'm pretty close to chieficus--it's really interesting to see what people believe and the why behind it.

Truthfully most of the circles I walk in are similar to myself, so it's neat to see the diversity in how people think. Thanks for the great read all.

I agree. The bible teaches tolerance. To me, we're all on the same side, trying to achieve the same goals. It's interesting to learn more about how people got to where they're at today.

Mr. Flopnuts

01-08-2008, 02:52 AM

SBK

01-08-2008, 03:13 AM

I agree. The bible teaches tolerance. To me, we're all on the same side, trying to achieve the same goals. It's interesting to learn more about how people got to where they're at today.

What's amazing is that if you were talking to someone about God, we all have a totally different viewpoint. There's no way we can all be right of course, but it goes to show you that you can think you're talking about the same thing when in fact your talking about 2 opposite ends of the spectrum....

Saggysack

01-08-2008, 05:53 AM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.? No.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them. No.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ. A man.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible? A book.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world? Human power struggle.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general? Social/Business gathering.

a1na2

01-08-2008, 06:37 AM

Interesting..... I found irishjayhawk's take to be brilliant!

I didn't expect anything different from you, but then you, as is he, are in need of some direct communication.

Amnorix

01-08-2008, 07:00 AM

Not much time today, so I'll go quickly:

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)? No. Atheist or agnostic, depending on mood that day. :D

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them. Unknown, but if he/she/it does exist, it would be completely beyond our comprehension. Also beyond our comprehension is why he would send his "only son" to this particular insignificant planet, or why he would actually pay all that much attention to us at all. In relative terms, we are a single follicle of hair on the rump of the biggest moose you ever saw.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ. A guy around whom a religion was built.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible? Alot of stories written by alot of different people at different times, over a very long period of time. Some historical accuracy exists. It also, of course, is one of th emost influential books in the history fo the world in terms of its sociological, religious and political impact on people and the development of the (mostly western) world.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world? Because human nature involves some very not-nice qualities.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general? They are, in general, a place for members of society to gather and express their common interest and adherence to a particular religion. They generally help bond a community together, and help organize and support people to provide beneficial support to their community.

HolyHandgernade

01-08-2008, 09:57 AM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

No.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

Yes. My conception of God, as best as I can describe it, is the context in which everything else arises.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

A mythical godman as well as a mystical archetype.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

Ancient literature meant to relay mystical concepts in a mythical context with a few historical chronicles in the Old Testament (i.e Kings)

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Reminds me of an old Islamic proverb. A man travels to a village and wants to settle there. He asks the local Imam what kind of people are there. The Imam asks him, "What type of people were in your old village?" The man replies, "Cheats and liars, couldn't trust anyone." The Imam says, "That is exactly the type of people you will find here." The man decides to move on.

Another man approaches the Imam, also looking to settle in the village and asks, "What type of people are here?" Again the Imam asks, "What type of people were in your old village?" The man replies, "They were a wonderful people, always willing to help their neighbor intimes of need." The Imam replies, "That is exactly the type of people you will find here."

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

I think churches are great for social congregation and some are genuinely good at raising charity for worthy causes. But I see a greater trend towards the huge chruches collecting for the good of their own church to expand programs for the Church's well being and less for charity. They are private organizations and people are free to give to whatever they want, but I wouldn't say those types of Churches endear my admiration.

-HH

oldandslow

01-08-2008, 10:44 AM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

I believe in a Creator. I believe the Sermon on the Mount is the one of the most misunderstood and underestimated pieces of literature in the world.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

My people have a word for God - Wakan - it means "great sacred mystery." That is what I believe too.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

A representation of God. As was Buddha and probably Ghandi.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

Which part? Some of it is very strong. Other parts of it are simple attempts by people to control other people.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Because humans have a very great need for power, control, sex, and the material. We evolved opposable thumbs and learned to make really efficent killing toys.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

Some do good. Some do bad. Not unlike most human inventions.

Logical

01-08-2008, 12:53 PM

I want to compliment everyone on keeping this thread above board (with one lone poster as an exception) and therefore very interesting.:thumb:

Ugly Duck

01-08-2008, 02:14 PM

churches help to establish communities with a conscientious, moral, and introspective citizenry.

At least they teach American children to speak in tongues honoring cardboard cutouts of Our Sacred President....

"Heeka jodama mujeebee undawa moko!"

http://www.videosift.com/video/Jesus-Camp-Kids-Worshipping-George-Bush-Cardboard-Cutout

talastan

01-08-2008, 02:41 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

Yes, hold no affiliation with any particular "sect"

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

Yes, I even believe that he created this universe, and all the scientific principles that govern its existence.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

Perfection, the perfect unity between God and Man, and an example of how mankind should live.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

The complete truth, the word of God and a very relevent book in my life. The bible helps me decipher how I should live my life. I also believe that it speaks to each individual differently.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Because is has been there from the beginning. How the ending turns out? I don't know....:shrug:

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

Most have good intentions but if they aren't open to how God can use, speak to, and affect people differently then they are guilty of putting God in a box. I believe God had divinely influenced several nations...not just that of the Judeo/Christian faith. How else can you explain the truths and insights within different cultures that are very much the same as those seperated by time and space. (A good intereptation of this is in Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, The last Battle when Aslan speaks to the Calormene boy in the afterlife.)

Calcountry

01-08-2008, 03:19 PM

But what is Ron Paul?

jAZ

01-08-2008, 03:35 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian? No

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? Doesn't look like it, but we can't know for sure.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ? A guy

4. What is your opinion of the Bible? A 2000+ year old game of "telephone" that was man's attempt to explain what he didn't understand

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world? Life happens. Natural Selection Is Ugly. Man has a selfish instinct that in a primitive society leads to survival, in a sophisticate society gets distorted into "evil".

6. What is your opinion of churches in general? Good and bad. The my-way is the right way doctrines really ruin the community building value of chruches. They pit neighbors against each other when they have conflicting views of the doctrine. I can agree that they should have their tax exempt status revoked.

Jilly

01-08-2008, 03:41 PM

Six questions: (brevity but clarity are appreciated :) )

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

I'm a protestant Christian; Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? Definitely. God is love

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ? A revelation of God and of the path we should walk.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible? It is a narrative of God's interaction with a people.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world? Too many of us follow a way of greed/selfishness, rather than love and grace.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general? I love the church and all its people. I believe at their finest, they are communities of love designed to lift each other up and support each other in their faith and struggle together in living lives of beauty and grace. In my opinion, the church is the body of Christ, his incarnation, active in the world - at its best.

kaplin42

01-08-2008, 04:12 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?
Nope. See #2

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.
Nope. Athiest

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.
A rebel. Someone who stood against the existing establishment at the time.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?
An interesting collection of fables.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?
I believe it is the way of our culture. Parents are no longer teaching their kids to behave, teaching them what respect, responsability, dissapointment and right and wrong are. They instead spoil their children and give them the "It's all about ME" attitude." That coupled with the focus on material possesions and appearance rather than on good communities and proper values has lead to the corruption of our society.

To answer the next question, yes you can still be a good person and never open a religious doctrine of any sort.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

If you mean the actual buildings? Some are nothing more than 4 walls with some benches where people meet to share common beliefs, others are works of art, and should be cherrished for their beauty. Notre Dame comes to mind.

If you mean churches as a place of worship. I believe they are nothing more than a means to an end. A place to issue the forth the mind control that is religion and foster the bigotry/prejudice and lies that any given religion spews forth, either intentionaly or not.

Not trying to start a fight, but you asked the question, I gave my opinion.

Thanks...
You are very welcome.

KILLER_CLOWN

01-08-2008, 04:26 PM

Six questions: (brevity but clarity are appreciated :) )

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

Yes, remnant of Israel.

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

Yes, Jesus Christ of the KJV only.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.
The Messiah.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?
KJV is the ONLY true word of GOD.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?
Welcome to the tribulation.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Thanks...

Thanks for asking! :)

chasedude

01-08-2008, 04:50 PM

I'm sure I'll get ridiculed for this but here goes...

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)? No

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them. No

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ. Man written about in a book

4. What is your opinion of the Bible? It's a book

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world? Free Will

6. What is your opinion of churches in general? They're a waste of time and money

irishjayhawk

01-08-2008, 04:58 PM

I'm sure I'll get ridiculed for this but here goes...

You're not a lone.

irishjayhawk

01-08-2008, 05:00 PM

Wow, almost exactly like me. ;)

HonestChieffan

01-08-2008, 05:15 PM

These were very interesting to read. And I can say its noice to see that the number of us who share many basic beliefs is still good, its sound and has not wavered.

As a methodist who was raised Episcoplaian I share many of the same views as stated by other believers.

I would suggest that for anyone who wants to have a better understanding of the history and the depth of meaning that a belief in God and for following the bible, you cannot replace the experience of a trip to and a well done tour of the Vatican, its art and history, and walks through the small villages and churchs of Italy.

Dave Lane

01-08-2008, 05:18 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

no

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

no

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

a construct of several myths and possibly the head of the Essenes.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

Tortuous read but I concur with the general ideas of the new chapter

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Its the nature of animals. They fight in the wild so do we.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

A waste of time and money. Meet in peoples homes give the tithes to the poor or disadvantaged, not buildings and Ministers.

Dave

a1na2

01-08-2008, 05:29 PM

irishjayhawk

01-08-2008, 05:49 PM

Please explain.

I'm sure he's talking about finding some of the morals discussed in the book as worthwhile. Just like in Harry Potter, the Brothers Karamozov or any other fictional book - pretty much.

It's just he disagrees that the Bible has a patent on "stories of morality".

plbrdude

01-08-2008, 06:02 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?
Yes--Apostolic/Pentecostal
2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.
Yes---Creator of the heavens and earth
3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.
the one true God of heaven, the very same I Am that spoke to Moses through the burning bush, God manifest in the flesh.
4. What is your opinion of the Bible?
the word of God. wrote by men who were inspired by the Holy Ghost
5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?
people are messed up. unwilling to follow God's plan for living. specifically here in the u.s.a. punishment rarely fits the crime, therefore there is little fear of punishment.
6. What is your opinion of churches in general?
as with most things, there are good, and there are bad. i won't go into a long rambling rant on churches. unfortantly many have hired teachers to tickle their ears. as many resturants give you a choice where you want to be seated to eat, God also gives us two choices where we want to spend eternity. myself, i'm choosing non smoking.
Thanks...

irishjayhawk

01-08-2008, 06:50 PM

people are messed up. unwilling to follow God's plan for living. specifically here in the u.s.a. punishment rarely fits the crime, therefore there is little fear of punishment.

I may be reading that wrong, but together it sounds like an argument for God being FOR the death penalty.

chasedude

01-08-2008, 07:27 PM

You're not a lone.

Freedom of religion, Freedom from religion heh ;)

patteeu

01-08-2008, 08:40 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)? No, but I do go to a Catholic Church

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them. I'm agnostic

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ. If I had to guess I'd say that he's a literary character based loosely on either a single real person who was revered by his followers or on a collection of such people, but that his legend grew with the re-telling.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible? It's a valuable human achievement, if nothing, else in that it is one of the fundamental bases of western civilization and it is probably responsible for a good chunk of the growth of literacy in the west. If God exists, then maybe it is the product of divine inspiration.

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world? Human nature and short-sighted greed for wealth, power, and sex

6. What is your opinion of churches in general? I think they help keep society civilized. Sure there are some bad apples, but on the whole I think they are a big positive for humanity.

Thanks... You're welcome

irishjayhawk

01-08-2008, 09:13 PM

patteeu

01-08-2008, 09:28 PM

Wow, you and I align a lot. :clap: :hmmm:

But I gotta ask..... sex? Seriously, that's why evil exists? Sex, the act used to prolong the species is why evil exists?

I'm thinking of things like the jealousy of a spurned lover or of a person who catches his spouse is cheating on him. Or of the sexually frustrated rapist. Etc. Wealth, power, and sex are the motivators that some people would commit evil for.

plbrdude

01-08-2008, 09:32 PM

I may be reading that wrong, but together it sounds like an argument for God being FOR the death penalty.

beings you have said you were raised catholic i assume you've read through the old testament.so i'm thinkin that you know according to mosaic law many things were punishable by death. a whole lot of these today are not even considered crimes so they are not punishable by anything.
now we have a justice system here where the death penalty is enforced in some cases and i believe God allows that. i also believe that God would want a person that may be sentenced to death to repent, go to the waters of baptism, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost so that even though he may be put to death here, he will have eternal life with God. if he does not repent then will not only he be put to death here, but he will also be forever seperated from God. the Bible says that the final destination for those people will be the lake of fire, where the smoke of their torment shall rise forever. which doesn't sound very pleasant to me.
it isn't the Lord's will that any should perish, but that all would come to repentence. sadly many won't. but i believe my Bible and i'm going to live for God the best i can.

irishjayhawk

01-08-2008, 10:09 PM

a1na2

01-08-2008, 10:20 PM

beings you have said you were raised catholic i assume you've read through the old testament.so i'm thinkin that you know according to mosaic law many things were punishable by death. a whole lot of these today are not even considered crimes so they are not punishable by anything.
now we have a justice system here where the death penalty is enforced in some cases and i believe God allows that. i also believe that God would want a person that may be sentenced to death to repent, go to the waters of baptism, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost so that even though he may be put to death here, he will have eternal life with God. if he does not repent then will not only he be put to death here, but he will also be forever seperated from God. the Bible says that the final destination for those people will be the lake of fire, where the smoke of their torment shall rise forever. which doesn't sound very pleasant to me.
it isn't the Lord's will that any should perish, but that all would come to repentence. sadly many won't. but i believe my Bible and i'm going to live for God the best i can.

I would say that God exacts what he exacts. Jesus said in the New Testament to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. In that he was basically talking about taxes, but in essence he was talking about the law of the Romans. We have laws that can punish mankind with the death penalty, so I believe that the death penalty is legitimate.

Can Christians be condemned to death due to breaking the laws? Yes. Can they go to Heaven if they are executed? Yes, if they repent of their sins.

Can you be just a good person and go to Heaven? Not according to my belief, but if you listen to others you might think so. I honestly doubt that you can, but none of us will know until we make that last step on this earth.

plbrdude

01-09-2008, 06:45 AM

I would say that God exacts what he exacts. Jesus said in the New Testament to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. In that he was basically talking about taxes, but in essence he was talking about the law of the Romans. We have laws that can punish mankind with the death penalty, so I believe that the death penalty is legitimate.

Can Christians be condemned to death due to breaking the laws? Yes. Can they go to Heaven if they are executed? Yes, if they repent of their sins.

Can you be just a good person and go to Heaven? Not according to my belief, but if you listen to others you might think so. I honestly doubt that you can, but none of us will know until we make that last step on this earth.

not according to my belief either. Jesus told Nicodemus that one had to be born of the water and the sporit in order to enter the kindom of heaven. nor do i believe Biblical salvation comes from the "sinner's prayer".

plbrdude

01-09-2008, 06:56 AM

So god is a pro-death penalty being? Got it.
Now, a person on death row can repent and then it's all good? So Huckster's pardon was good?

this is a trick question isn't it? who is this huckster?
of course a person on death row can repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. we may think they should burn in hell, but it's not up to us.

Jilly

01-09-2008, 12:10 PM

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

A waste of time and money. Meet in peoples homes give the tithes to the poor or disadvantaged, not buildings and Ministers.

Dave

:deevee: Some of us aren't so bad.

Cochise

01-09-2008, 12:16 PM

So god is a pro-death penalty being? Got it.
Now, a person on death row can repent and then it's all good? So Huckster's pardon was good?

I think so, being as he instituted it himself in the Old Testament.

A person on death row can repent and receive forgiveness from God, sure. That doesn't exempt them from the consequences of what they did.

a1na2

01-09-2008, 12:26 PM

So god is a pro-death penalty being? Got it.
Now, a person on death row can repent and then it's all good? So Huckster's pardon was good?

You seem to be very confused. There is God's law and man's law.
Repenting for your sins in the religious aspect has nothing to do with the laws of the land.

Either you need to stand by your atheist belief or not. You seem to want to only use the parts of the Bible that support your wants and needs and reject the rest.

Jilly

01-09-2008, 01:39 PM

I think so, being as he instituted it himself in the Old Testament.

A person on death row can repent and receive forgiveness from God, sure. That doesn't exempt them from the consequences of what they did.

I don't know, did he? Or did the people institute it and then justify it by saying God willed it?

irishjayhawk

01-09-2008, 02:54 PM

You seem to be very confused. There is God's law and man's law.
Repenting for your sins in the religious aspect has nothing to do with the laws of the land.

Why not? Shouldn't we let a repentant man - in the face of God - rejoin society?

Either you need to stand by your atheist belief or not. You seem to want to only use the parts of the Bible that support your wants and needs and reject the rest.
This has nothing to do with my beliefs but the multiple interpretations - as indicated by this thread - of the Bible and the concept of god(s). The Bible itself has many contradictions. One of which is the issue of the death penalty in the OT and the doing away with, seemingly, in the NT.

Mr. Kotter

01-09-2008, 03:59 PM

Why not? Shouldn't we let a repentant man - in the face of God - rejoin society?....

Separation of Church and state, duh. :rolleyes:

As the founders intended; not the perverted and twisted version pushed by the ACLU, and their ilk.

'Hamas' Jenkins

01-09-2008, 04:09 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

No, I'm an agnostic

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

I don't know, and I think that the debate over the existence/nonexistence of god is futile and pointless.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

A Jewish philosopher

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

The Bible is a very compelling piece of literature, but nothing more. There is a lot of interesting philosophy and several worthwhile anecdotes in the text, but ultimately it's more of a Norton Anthology than it is some unerring and infallible word of "God".

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Because ordinary people choose to do nothing about it. Most people aren't evil, even the ones who perpetrate seemingly evil deeds. Most are just imbeciles and morons, to paraphrase the intro of Hannah Arendt. Others are just boring and/or cowardly. People are willing to use the excuse of "just following orders" to flush any semblance of critical thinking down their own mental drains.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

They are more socially acceptable forms of cults and shouldn't have protection from the fire department.

Thanks...

irishjayhawk

01-09-2008, 04:19 PM

Separation of Church and state, duh. :rolleyes:

As the founders intended; not the perverted and twisted version pushed by the ACLU, and their ilk.

Ah, so Huckabee was in the wrong? Though they may have been forgiven in god's eyes doesn't mean they should rejoin the populus?

Mr Luzcious

01-09-2008, 04:22 PM

Ah, so Huckabee was in the wrong? Though they may have been forgiven in god's eyes doesn't mean they should rejoin the populus?

The point is moot, because we aren't exactly in a position to ascertain whether or not they are forgiven.

irishjayhawk

01-09-2008, 04:26 PM

The point is moot, because we aren't exactly in a position to ascertain whether or not they are forgiven.

Fair point. So how do we know if anyone is forgiven? Priests say they are the ones with the power to act as the "mediator"? How would we know if we weren't really forgiven?

Doesn't seem to make much sense.

a1na2

01-09-2008, 04:27 PM

Ah, so Huckabee was in the wrong? Though they may have been forgiven in god's eyes doesn't mean they should rejoin the populus?

Mans law and Gods law are not related. If you murder someone and get the death penalty, it's not God's law that you have to contend with. God will forgive a repentant man/woman for their sins, but that doesn't mean the court system has to extend the same forgiveness.

Your inability to understand some very simple principles makes me worry about anyone that you represent.

Mr Luzcious

01-09-2008, 04:37 PM

Fair point. So how do we know if anyone is forgiven? Priests say they are the ones with the power to act as the "mediator"? How would we know if we weren't really forgiven?

Doesn't seem to make much sense.

As far as the self is concerned, you know if you really believe, and your actions jive with that believe, after all, if you really believe something, you will act upon that belief. As far as others are concerned, their actions should also speak to the truth of their belief, but there is no true test of another's faith.

a1na2

01-09-2008, 04:41 PM

As far as the self is concerned, you know if you really believe, and your actions jive with that believe, after all, if you really believe something, you will act upon that belief. As far as others are concerned, their actions should also speak to the truth of their belief, but there is no true test of another's faith.

You have hit on the crux of the argument. IJ doesn't have a belief system in place. He does have a very strong non-belief going for him though.

plbrdude

01-09-2008, 05:55 PM

Fair point. So how do we know if anyone is forgiven? Priests say they are the ones with the power to act as the "mediator"? How would we know if we weren't really forgiven?

Doesn't seem to make much sense.

a priest can say whatever they want, but they have no more power to forgive you than my shoe does. people need to take it to the Lord himself. when Christ died on the cross, the veil of the temple was ripped top to bottom. that ended the days of the common man being seperated from God. we now have access to the throne of grace through Jesus. that you have to take on faith becaus you can't physically see Jesus.

after posting i realized you said priests say they can act as mediators. the Bible says there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

tiptap

01-09-2008, 07:40 PM

1.) Secular Christian as I buy most of the Ethics.

2.) Deist more technically a Pandeist after the philosophy of Spinoza and Einstein.

3.) Conglomerate of person/ideals tied to a real person

4.) The gentile interpretation of Paul's teaching/writings of a "risen christ" so that the religion is coherent to a theme set up by the council of nicea that was dominated by Gentile churches of Pauline descent.

5.) The amount of evil is proportionally less as population has grown but the absolute amount has risen. Lack of generalizing Ethical teaching and indulgence of animal properties.

6.) Failure to even come close to fulfilling Jesus's ethical teachings. Rather preach law and damnation.

irishjayhawk

01-09-2008, 08:18 PM

As far as the self is concerned, you know if you really believe, and your actions jive with that believe, after all, if you really believe something, you will act upon that belief. As far as others are concerned, their actions should also speak to the truth of their belief, but there is no true test of another's faith.

But you didn't answer my question. Faith is moot here. As you say, no one knows if the other is forgiven. So I guess, I can imply that no, they aren't released or shouldn't be to the general population once they reach "forgiveness".

Strange.

irishjayhawk

01-09-2008, 08:18 PM

a priest can say whatever they want, but they have no more power to forgive you than my shoe does. people need to take it to the Lord himself. when Christ died on the cross, the veil of the temple was ripped top to bottom. that ended the days of the common man being seperated from God. we now have access to the throne of grace through Jesus. that you have to take on faith becaus you can't physically see Jesus.

after posting i realized you said priests say they can act as mediators. the Bible says there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

So, what's the point of a Catholic who goes to confession?

plbrdude

01-09-2008, 09:07 PM

So, what's the point of a Catholic who goes to confession?

he tells a priest what he's done? far as i know it's not found in the Bible that you have to go tell a priest in a confessional booth. the Bible does say that we may go boldly before the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. the Bible also says that God is no respecter of persons.

Mr. Kotter

01-09-2008, 10:56 PM

So, what's the point of a Catholic who goes to confession?

Confession is to God; priest is the witness and confidante'.

I'm not even Catholic, and that seems pretty simple to me.

BucEyedPea

01-09-2008, 11:09 PM

I read a psychology study once, that concluded Catholic's having a lower suicide rate was due to confession. I don't know if that's true. But I do feel getting off what one has done provides a certain relief. It's a good thing imo.

As to the Bible...well there wasn't one for over 300 years so BFD!

irishjayhawk

01-09-2008, 11:16 PM

Confession is to God; priest is the witness and confidante'.

I'm not even Catholic, and that seems pretty simple to me.

I get that. I'm asking why go through the middle man?

Mr. Kotter

01-09-2008, 11:18 PM

I get that. I'm asking why go through the middle man?

Because witnesses and confidantes are important? It makes sense to me. :shrug:

irishjayhawk

01-09-2008, 11:20 PM

Because witnesses and confidante's are important? It makes sense to me. :shrug:

Why, is what I'm asking? Why are they important? Why not just use God as both?

I guess I'm stuck at seeing - if we are to say that confession is person-god only - as the priest just using that as justification for his paycheck.

Mr Luzcious

01-09-2008, 11:23 PM

But you didn't answer my question. Faith is moot here. As you say, no one knows if the other is forgiven. So I guess, I can imply that no, they aren't released or shouldn't be to the general population once they reach "forgiveness".

Strange.

Yes.. thats what I was saying.

Mr. Kotter

01-09-2008, 11:25 PM

Why, is what I'm asking? Why are they important? Why not just use God as both?

I guess I'm stuck at seeing - if we are to say that confession is person-god only - as the priest just using that as justification for his paycheck.

The New Testament is pretty insistent on "public" validation of religious institutions and ceremony. Not "wearing religion on your sleeve" per se--of course that's derided by Jesus....but rather on as a community supporting, encouraging, and assisting other Christians in their "walk" and helping others to keep them on-track. I see confession as consistent with that notion. JMHO.

irishjayhawk

01-09-2008, 11:26 PM

Yes.. thats what I was saying.

Do those that "kill" the guy become as bad as him?

doomy3

01-09-2008, 11:29 PM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)? Yes, Protestant

2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them. Yes, all-knowing, faithful, mix of grace and wrath.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ. Son of God, Messiah

4. What is your opinion of the Bible? Fact

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world? Hatred and Confusion. So many people chasing the wrong things

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?
Some are good, but just like anything, there are things about some that are undesirable. Some churches do more harm than good IMO

ClevelandBronco

01-09-2008, 11:30 PM

Confession is to God; priest is the witness and confidante'.

I'm not even Catholic, and that seems pretty simple to me.

I'm not a Catholic either, but there's plenty of guidance in James regarding the value of confession.

irishjayhawk

01-09-2008, 11:31 PM

I'm not a Catholic either, but there's plenty of guidance in James regarding the value of confession.

That isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking why there's a middle man.

ClevelandBronco

01-09-2008, 11:35 PM

That isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking why there's a middle man.

You haven't read James then. We are to confess to each other according to him.

ClevelandBronco

01-09-2008, 11:38 PM

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

(This implies to me that the prayer of an unrighteous man is weak and ineffective. If I confess to another, his righteous prayer will be heard, while my unrighteous prayer may not be.)

19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Edit: Those are from Chapter 5.

Mr. Kotter

01-09-2008, 11:40 PM

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

(This implies to me that the prayer of an unrighteous man is weak and ineffective. If I confess to another, his righteous prayer will be heard, while my unrighteous prayer may not be.)

19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Well, you are more well-versed than I....but, yes, that's the way I know it also, even if I didn't remember the passage. Thanks for the assist. :thumb:

ClevelandBronco

01-09-2008, 11:51 PM

Well, you are more well-versed than I....but, yes, that's the way I know it also, even if I didn't remember the passage. Thanks for the assist. :thumb:

No sweat.

Lurkito ergo sum. (I lurk, therefore I am.)

Mr Luzcious

01-09-2008, 11:59 PM

Do those that "kill" the guy become as bad as him?

Everyone starts off evil. So, no.

Mr Luzcious

01-10-2008, 12:03 AM

Everyone starts off evil. So, no.

Although I should clarify, and say that even if we didn't, execution is not the same as murder. Execution = the state exacting a penalty for a crime...

Ugly Duck

01-10-2008, 12:51 AM

Everyone starts off evil. So, no.

Babies are evil? That is hella perverse...

ClevelandBronco

01-10-2008, 12:54 AM

1. Do you consider yourself a Christian, and if so, what "sect" (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.)?

Protestant independent.

[QUOTE=Chieficus]2. Do you believe that god(s) exists? If so, briefly describe him/her/it/them.

One God: The father, all knowing; the son, all loving; the spirit, all empowering.

3. In your opinion, who was Jesus Christ.

The embodiment of God on earth.

4. What is your opinion of the Bible?

The most inspired work of man. (And I include the word "inspired" very purposefully and precisely.)

5. Why do you think so much evil exists in the world?

Our own imperfections coupled with the influence of a very real Satan.

6. What is your opinion of churches in general?

I thank God for them.

Thanks...

No charge. I'd like to know why you're collecting these opinions and what comes of it.

ClevelandBronco

01-10-2008, 12:56 AM

Babies are evil? That is hella perverse...

Have you ever fathered a child?

Logical

01-10-2008, 02:01 AM

That isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking why there's a middle man.
In addition to what Cleveland Bronco has told you. I was raised a Catholic so perhaps I can shed some light on the Sacrament of Penance and Reconcilliation (Confession).

When a Catholic reaches the age of maturity (varies and is a judgement call of the Priest and Parents). Basically they have to decide you are mature enough to understand the true implications of confession. In my case I believe I was 9 maybe 10 when I started training for the Sacraments of Communion and Confession. These are perhaps the biggest events of a Catholic child's religious life (because Baptism is done when Catholic is a baby or just starting the process of becoming a Catholic and Confirmation (where a Catholic receives the Holy Spirit) is a one time event in the Catholic's child's life.

Communion and Penance will be a part of a practicing Catholic's life for the rest of their lives where the other sacraments are adult based sacraments Matrimony, Holy Orders, and Extreme Unction.

It is necessary to confess your sins to the Priest so he can administer absolution (Canon 966.1) which the Church has given him the power to do when he receives his Holy Orders. He also administers the requirements for penitence (typically a number of Rosaries, Holy Mary's and Acts of Contritions) accompanied by true contrition. You must be in a condition of absolution to receive the Sacrament of Communion.

Many non-Catholics mistakenly believe that you must go to confession weekly, this is not true, you only have to go through confession to obtain absolution if you have committed sins that require absolution for receiving communion. However, a good practicing Catholic should receive communion weekly and it is a rare person who does not commit a sin that requires absolution on a weekly basis.

There are a lot more in depth details but what it comes down to is according to Catholic doctrine only a Priest can provide the contrition requirements and grant absolution and is empowered by God through the Holy See (Pope) to do so.

I know that was a lot of information.

Sorry if re-post.

Logical

01-10-2008, 02:03 AM

Everyone starts off evil. So, no.

I think you are talking about original sin, which is washed away by Baptism into Christianity.

ClevelandBronco

01-10-2008, 02:05 AM

...I know that was a lot of information...

And it was very informative. Good job, Dr.

ClevelandBronco

01-10-2008, 02:11 AM

I think you are talking about original sin, which is washed away by Baptism into Christianity.

A significant fraction of Protestant churches won't perform infant baptism, but instead wait until the the child declares for himself or herself that he/she has understood the salvation that is offered.

Infant dedication ceremonies are sometimes offered instead, but their purpose is to dedicate the parents and the congregation to commit to helping the child find salvation through Jesus Christ.

GoChiefs

01-10-2008, 02:27 AM

Jilly

01-10-2008, 11:14 AM

I think you are talking about original sin, which is washed away by Baptism into Christianity.

Although originally the doctrine of original sin was the reason for infant baptism, in many protestant churches this is not always the case. Many churches now claim infant baptism as the New Testament form of baptism in that in the book of Acts, the apostles, while they baptized adults, also baptized entire households of people which included infants. Infant baptism, in many cases, is an induction into the Christian life and community.

Jilly

01-10-2008, 11:17 AM

Why, is what I'm asking? Why are they important? Why not just use God as both?

I guess I'm stuck at seeing - if we are to say that confession is person-god only - as the priest just using that as justification for his paycheck.

Because people need something real they can look at and confession is that medium. Often God seems so distant from people they have trouble....I think the Catholic church has other reasons, but in my opinion, confession is important for the healing of one's self. God reveals god's self in other human beings, esp those who are leaders of the church and have dedicated their lives to healing and grace.

BucEyedPea

01-10-2008, 11:30 AM

Babies are evil? That is hella perverse...
I think that means we are all born with the capacity to do wrong.

BucEyedPea

01-10-2008, 11:41 AM

Wow, you and I align a lot. :clap: :hmmm:

But I gotta ask..... sex? Seriously, that's why evil exists? Sex, the act used to prolong the species is why evil exists?

Lust, as opposed to desire for sex, can lead to other wrongs which hurt others.
Just as eating food is healthy but gluttony is harmful.
Just as money is a necessity, and even being rich is okay but greed leads to other wrongdoing. Lust does not just refer to sex...can be a lust for power. Lust is an unrestrained desire or craving for an object, person or experience.

irishjayhawk

01-10-2008, 11:51 AM

Lust, as opposed to desire for sex, can lead to other wrongs which hurt others.
Just as eating food is healthy but gluttony is harmful.
Just as money is a necessity, and even being rich is okay but greed leads to other wrongdoing. Lust does not just refer to sex...can be a lust for power. Lust is an unrestrained desire or craving for an object, person or experience.

Well, you've gone and changed what I was talking about, though. Lust, I will agree with right now. But sex, itself, is not a source of evil. Just like food - and the obesity that comes with it - isn't a source of evil.

BucEyedPea

01-10-2008, 11:56 AM

Well, you've gone and changed what I was talking about, though. Lust, I will agree with right now. But sex, itself, is not a source of evil. Just like food - and the obesity that comes with it - isn't a source of evil.
Well, I almost said sex itself may not have been the best word he chose for what he said, eventhough it involves sex. I was only addressing that part not anything else.

irishjayhawk

01-10-2008, 11:56 AM

In addition to what Cleveland Bronco has told you. I was raised a Catholic so perhaps I can shed some light on the Sacrament of Penance and Reconcilliation (Confession).

When a Catholic reaches the age of maturity (varies and is a judgement call of the Priest and Parents). Basically they have to decide you are mature enough to understand the true implications of confession. In my case I believe I was 9 maybe 10 when I started training for the Sacraments of Communion and Confession. These are perhaps the biggest events of a Catholic child's religious life (because Baptism is done when Catholic is a baby or just starting the process of becoming a Catholic and Confirmation (where a Catholic receives the Holy Spirit) is a one time event in the Catholic's child's life.

Communion and Penance will be a part of a practicing Catholic's life for the rest of their lives where the other sacraments are adult based sacraments Matrimony, Holy Orders, and Extreme Unction.

It is necessary to confess your sins to the Priest so he can administer absolution (Canon 966.1) which the Church has given him the power to do when he receives his Holy Orders. He also administers the requirements for penitence (typically a number of Rosaries, Holy Mary's and Acts of Contritions) accompanied by true contrition. You must be in a condition of absolution to receive the Sacrament of Communion.

Many non-Catholics mistakenly believe that you must go to confession weekly, this is not true, you only have to go through confession to obtain absolution if you have committed sins that require absolution for receiving communion. However, a good practicing Catholic should receive communion weekly and it is a rare person who does not commit a sin that requires absolution on a weekly basis.

There are a lot more in depth details but what it comes down to is according to Catholic doctrine only a Priest can provide the contrition requirements and grant absolution and is empowered by God through the Holy See (Pope) to do so.

I know that was a lot of information.

Sorry if re-post.

Thanks for the info.

Now, I understand all that and you added absolution. However, what I don't understand - based on everyone's interpretation - is why you need the Priest to give absolution or anything, really. Why? Why not just go directly to god through prayer? If it's between you two anyway, why go through this middle man?

Seems a little too, umm, ritual-y

BucEyedPea

01-10-2008, 11:58 AM

patteeu

01-10-2008, 12:53 PM

Well, you've gone and changed what I was talking about, though. Lust, I will agree with right now. But sex, itself, is not a source of evil. Just like food - and the obesity that comes with it - isn't a source of evil.

Actually, now that you make it apparent, it's you who changed what was being talked about. I was talking about "greed for... sex" which is another way of saying lust. I can see why you questioned me about it now.

Mr Luzcious

01-10-2008, 01:02 PM

I think you are talking about original sin, which is washed away by Baptism into Christianity.

I don't believe baptism is anything other than symbolic.

irishjayhawk

01-10-2008, 01:09 PM

Actually, now that you make it apparent, it's you who changed what was being talked about. I was talking about "greed for... sex" which is another way of saying lust. I can see why you questioned me about it now.

Re-reading it, I can see how you see it that way and I hope you can see how I read it. I figured the greed stopped at the "wealth" and subsequent comma.

Ah, the subtleties of the English language.

Baby Lee

01-10-2008, 01:20 PM

Well, you've gone and changed what I was talking about, though. Lust, I will agree with right now. But sex, itself, is not a source of evil. Just like food - and the obesity that comes with it - isn't a source of evil.
Drives are a potential source of evil, inasmuch as, if the drive becomes overwhelming, capacity for evildoing in satisfaction of the drive rises.
Thus, anything desirable to meet a drive [wealth, food, sex, are common examples] can become a source of evil if the drive is unchecked.

irishjayhawk

01-10-2008, 01:25 PM

Drives are a potential source of evil, inasmuch as, if the drive becomes overwhelming, capacity for evildoing in satisfaction of the drive rises.
Thus, anything desirable to meet a drive [wealth, food, sex, are common examples] can become a source of evil if the drive is unchecked.

But isn't that the "drive for" [insert thing here] rather than [insert thing here] itself?

And that's what I was getting at and it may be semantics, but sex, itself is not a source of evil.

patteeu

01-10-2008, 01:37 PM

Re-reading it, I can see how you see it that way and I hope you can see how I read it. I figured the greed stopped at the "wealth" and subsequent comma.

Ah, the subtleties of the English language.

Yes, I can see how you read it that way.

BucEyedPea

01-10-2008, 01:42 PM

And that's what I was getting at and it may be semantics, but sex, itself is not a source of evil.
Well, some say money is the root of all evil too.
It isn't...it's lust for or greed that is. Still money is involved and is a factor.

ClevelandBronco

01-10-2008, 01:49 PM

1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."

Not the money, but the love of it. Making money into an idol is the problem.

cdcox

01-10-2008, 05:41 PM

Thanks for the info.

Now, I understand all that and you added absolution. However, what I don't understand - based on everyone's interpretation - is why you need the Priest to give absolution or anything, really. Why? Why not just go directly to god through prayer? If it's between you two anyway, why go through this middle man?

Seems a little too, umm, ritual-y

As Dr. Doom pointed out, absolution is the key part of confession.

According to the Bible, Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to the Church. The Church is the means by which God forgives sins. It is the way that God has packaged the gift. The bible is silent on whether forgivenss of sins is available through direct prayer, outside the Church (body of all believers, not the building).

While any christian can forgive sins, not all are called to do so on behalf of the Church. Those that are called to do so are the public ministers of the church.

Jesus won the forgiveness of sins by his death on the cross.

Jesus gave that power to administer on earth to the Chruch.

The public ministers (priests, pastors, whatever you want to call them) administer the power on behalf of the Church.

Why?

1. Because God said to do it that way.

2. Because humans need to HEAR the absolution to their sins from someone else. If it is all done in prayer in your mind you are playing the role of both criminal and judge. Very easy to have doubt in that case.

Baby Lee

01-10-2008, 06:02 PM

But isn't that the "drive for" [insert thing here] rather than [insert thing here] itself?

And that's what I was getting at and it may be semantics, but sex, itself is not a source of evil.
Part of [insert thing here]'s list of attributes is it's ability to satisfy a drive.
I'd put it down to semantics.
A concept isn't inherently evil. How we act in relation to that concept manifests evil acts.

Take hate, it's conceivable for the concept of hate to exist in our consciences, and for us to be totally indifferent to it, and act in no manner based on it. Thus a CONCEPT with a high propensity to generate EVIL is rendered inert.

Or love, it's conceivable for the concept of love to drive someone to loathsome misguided acts, rape, murder. Thus a CONCEPT with a high propensity to generate GOOD is twisted to evil.

Everything has a POSSIBILITY to generate evil, some things have a greater PROPENSITY.