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Cochise
01-30-2008, 10:50 AM
Fact-Checking McCain's Straight-Talk
By George Will
http://www.JewishWorldReview.com

In 2004, one of John McCain's closest associates, John Weaver, spoke to John Kerry about the possibility of McCain running as Kerry's vice presidential running mate. In "No Excuses," Bob Shrum's memoir of his role in numerous presidential campaigns, including Kerry's, Shrum writes that Weaver assured Kerry that "McCain was serious about the possibility of teaming up with him," and Kerry approached McCain. He, however, was more serious about seeking the 2008 Republican nomination.

But was it unreasonable for Kerry to think McCain might be comfortable on a Democratic ticket? Not really.

In ABC's New Hampshire debate, McCain said: "Why shouldn't we be able to reimport drugs from Canada?" A conservative's answer is:

That amounts to importing Canada's price controls, a large step toward a system in which some medicines would be inexpensive but many others — new pain-relieving, life-extending pharmaceuticals — would be unavailable. Setting drug prices by government fiat rather than market forces results in huge reductions of funding for research and development of new drugs. McCain's evident aim is to reduce pharmaceutical companies' profits. But if all those profits were subtracted from the nation's health care bill, the pharmaceutical component of that bill would be reduced only from 10 percent to 8 percent — and innovation would stop, taking a terrible toll in unnecessary suffering and premature death. When McCain explains that trade-off to voters, he will actually have engaged in straight talk.

There are decent, intelligent people who believe that equity or efficiency or both are often served by government setting prices. In America, such people are called Democrats.

Because McCain is a "maverick" — the media encomium reserved for Republicans who reject important Republican principles — he would be a conciliatory president. He has indeed worked with Ted Kennedy on immigration reform, with Russ Feingold on restricting political speech (McCain-Feingold) and with Kennedy and John Edwards — a trial lawyer drawn to an enlargement of opportunities for litigation — on the "patients' bill of rights."

McCain is, however, an unlikely conciliator because he is quick to denigrate the motives, and hence the characters, of those who oppose him. He promiscuously accuses others of "corruption," the ubiquity of which he says justifies McCain-Feingold's expansive government regulation of the quantity, timing and content of campaign speech.

McCain says he would nominate Supreme Court justices similar to Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, John Roberts and Sam Alito. But how likely is he to nominate jurists who resemble those four: They consider his signature achievement constitutionally dubious.

When the Supreme Court upheld McCain-Feingold 5-4, Scalia and Thomas were in the minority. That was before Alito replaced Sandra Day O'Connor, who was in the majority. Two years later, McCain filed his own brief supporting federal suppression of a right-to-life group's issue advertisement in Wisconsin because it mentioned a candidate for federal office during the McCain-Feingold blackout period prior to an election. The court ruled 5-4 against McCain's position, with Alito in the majority.

In the New Hampshire debate, McCain asserted that corruption is the reason drugs currently cannot be reimported from Canada. The reason is "the power of the pharmaceutical companies." When Mitt Romney interjected, "Don't turn the pharmaceutical companies into the big bad guys," McCain replied, "Well, they are."

There is a place in American politics for moralizers who think in such Manichaean simplicities. That place is in the Democratic Party, where people who talk like McCain are considered not mavericks but mainstream.

Republicans are supposed to eschew demagogic aspersions concerning complicated economic matters. But applause greets faux "straight talk" that brands as "bad" the industry responsible for the facts that polio is no longer a scourge, that childhood leukemia is no longer a death sentence, that depression and other mental illnesses are treatable diseases, that the rate of heart attacks and heart failures has been cut more than in half in 50 years.

When McCain and Joe Lieberman introduced legislation empowering Congress to comprehensively regulate U.S. industries' emissions of greenhouse gases in order to "prevent catastrophic global warming," they co-authored an op-ed column that radiated McCainian intolerance of disagreement. It said that a U.N. panel's report "puts the final nail in denial's coffin about the problem of global warming." Concerning the question of whether human activity is causing catastrophic warming, they said, "the debate has ended."

Interesting, is it not, that no one considers it necessary to insist that "the debate has ended" about whether the Earth is round. People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues.


And from another:


Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, the Clintons should bask in the glow of John McCain's Clintonian gloss on this fact: Ten months ago, Romney said that President Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki should discuss, privately, "a series of timetables and milestones." That unremarkable thought was twisted by McCain, whose distortions are notably clumsy, as when Romney said, accurately, that he alone among the candidates has had extensive experience in private-sector business.


That truth was subjected to McCain's sophistry, and he charged that Romney had said "you haven't had a real job" if you had a military career. If, this autumn, voters must choose between Clinton and McCain, they will face, at least stylistically, an echo, not a choice.

BucEyedPea
01-30-2008, 11:02 AM
I forgot about Mac's global warming stand. Yuck!
But I agree with him on Big Pharma.

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 11:32 AM
I forgot about Mac's global warming stand. Yuck!
But I agree with him on Big Pharma.

I'm not big on the global warming stand, either. However, completely burying our heads in the sand on the issue is irresponsible. If nothing else, it could pave the way.....for improved energy policies, which would be a good start regardless. I suspect as with any proposal or position, it's a starting point subject to negotiation.

patteeu
01-30-2008, 11:35 AM
Mitt Romney is inauthentic. Thankfully we can fall back on a Straight Talk candidate.

Cochise
01-30-2008, 11:37 AM
I'm not big on the global warming stand, either. However, completely burying our heads in the sand on the issue is irresponsible. If nothing else, it could pave the way.....for improved energy policies, which would be a good start regardless. I suspect as with any proposal or position, it's a starting point subject to negotiation.

I just posted this for you, so that you could see George Will, arch-conservative, calling McCain a Clinton impersonator.

patteeu
01-30-2008, 11:44 AM
George Will is a myopic ideologue. Have you ever taken a look at those glasses he has to wear?

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 11:44 AM
I just posted this for you, so that you could see George Will, arch-conservative, calling McCain a Clinton impersonator.

I enjoy Will. He's one of my favorite columnists. However, like some others (all of us, really)....his ideology blinds him on some occasions. TJ's article from today's thread just recalled to me, an appropriate quote:

"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

;)

BucEyedPea
01-30-2008, 11:46 AM
One can be inconsistently consistent.
Or consistently inconsistent.

Cochise
01-30-2008, 11:47 AM
...his ideology blinds him on some occasions.

It's a handicap all of us who have convictions must deal with I suppose.

patteeu
01-30-2008, 11:48 AM
I enjoy Will. He's one of my favorite columnists. However, like some others (all of us, really)....his ideology blinds him on some occasions. TJ's article from today's thread just recalled to me, an appropriate quote:

"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

;)

You've certainly taken that sentiment to heart. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand what it means. TJ's article explains that for you although you might find it inconvenient for your current purpose.

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 11:49 AM
It's a handicap all of us who have convictions must deal with I suppose.

Convictions are fine; indeed, laudable.

Conviction, without reasonable compromise, in a democracy....lead to election defeats.

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 11:50 AM
You've certainly taken that sentiment to heart. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand what it means. TJ's article explains that for you although you might find it inconvenient for your current purpose.

Of course, you would think that.

Cochise
01-30-2008, 11:54 AM
Convictions are fine; indeed, laudable.

Conviction, without reasonable compromise, in a democracy....lead to election defeats.

Conviction is not defined by what you are willing to compromise. It's what you are not willing to compromise.

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 11:57 AM
Conviction is not defined by what you are willing to compromise. It's what you are not willing to compromise.

Unfortunately though, as patty displays....some mistake ego for truth in a democracy. In a democracy, the most relevant "truth" of all.....is the principle of majority rule.

Many political careers have been sunk when politicians make the mistake of choosing their own egos over that one, very singular, important political truth.

Short of activists hijacking the Supreme Court, there's simply no way around that truth.

Taco John
01-30-2008, 11:59 AM
Hey public school teacher. We live in a Republic, not a democracy.

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 12:02 PM
Hey public school teacher. We live in a Republic, not a democracy.

Of course we do. In America though, republic is synonymous with "indirect democracy." And indirect democracies, despite the messiness of the process and the patience required, are still accountable to the will of the people. It in no way diminishes, in the long term, majority rule.

patteeu
01-30-2008, 12:04 PM
Please teach me more about politics, Prof. Kotter. I learned so much from your lesson designed around the Fred Thompson and how he was going to give the GOP field a real run for their money.

Cochise
01-30-2008, 12:07 PM
Unfortunately though, as patty displays....some mistake ego for truth in a democracy. In a democracy, the most relevant "truth" of all.....is the principle of majority rule.

Many political careers have been sunk when politicians make the mistake of choosing their own egos over that one, very singular, important political truth.

What does that even mean?

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 12:08 PM
Please teach me more about politics, Prof. Kotter. I learned so much from your lesson designed around the Fred Thompson and how he was going to give the GOP field a real run for their money.

Eh, he may yet make it onto a ticket. :)

Regardless, my two....most tolerable candidates left are still doing quite well though. :shrug:

patteeu
01-30-2008, 12:12 PM
Eh, he may yet make it onto a ticket. :)

Regardless, my two....most tolerable candidates left are still doing quite well though. :shrug:

Yeah, like that makes your "watch and learn" boast any less embarrassing.

Cochise
01-30-2008, 12:17 PM
Regardless, my two....most tolerable candidates left are still doing quite well though. :shrug:

I guess that is to be expected when you lack any ideological convictions and simply align yourself with whomever is popular at the moment.

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 12:24 PM
I guess that is to be expected when you lack any ideological convictions and simply align yourself with whomever is popular at the moment.

McCain was in the tank, counted out; Obama was 20-30 points ahead of Hillary in the "national polls" when I decided they would be my "back-up" plans. :shrug:

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 12:25 PM
Yeah, like that makes your "watch and learn" boast any less embarrassing.

Embarrassed by one's posting on a discussion board? Boy, you take this place wwwaaa-AAAAyyyyyYYYY too seriously. :spock:

Heh. LMAO

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 12:52 PM
What does that even mean?

Try this...

This was the excerpt from TJ's article I referenced with patty.

...One of my favorite quotes is Emerson’s "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." He meant that you should choose truth over ego when new facts challenge your beliefs...

I agree with the authors take on Emerson's quote. Patty insinuated I didn't understand the quote, which is silly.

IMO, the most important "truth" in our democracy, is winning elections....and you win elections by keeping in mind the principal of majority rule. You have to keep your eye on the prize. It's one of the reasons, ultimately, that Fred lost. To win elections, one must be able to build consensus and be prepared to compromise at times with folks with whom you may disagree, philosophically. Instead of choosing truth, some politicians who have strong convictions....seem to forget that most basic truth.

They allow their egos, usually driven by ideological and personal political opinions to drive their campaigns and "convictions." That's fine. No problem, yet. However, if a politician's convictions are inconsistent with the majority of constituents...he/she better hope it's an issue that constituents place a low priority on. Otherwise, defying constituents (prominently on a major issue, or chronically) will cost you your job. They'll vote someone else in.

Cynics call it pandering, or playing the "mushy middle;" compromise to move from a position as a trustee on an issue to operating as a delegate, or a representative of the people, causes one to "shift" positions....which can be politically embarrassing. Ask Mitt Romney, or John Kerry, about that. Or any politician, really. It is a fine line.

When arrogance and ego, transcend that basic democratic truth.....politicians better remember that truth. Otherwise, they are cast aside to the ash heap of history. It's what cost Barry Goldwater and Walter Mondale any chance to be competitive in a couple of Presidential elections. It also cost Tom Daschle his seat as majority/minority leader. It's one of the things that make Ron Paul, and any third party also-ran, unelectable.

BucEyedPea
01-30-2008, 01:15 PM
And indirect democracies, despite the messiness of the process and the patience required, are still accountable to the will of the people. It in no way diminishes, in the long term, majority rule.
No they're not. It's not just an indirect democracy. The Consitution is not just a horizontal check on the three branches of govt, but also a vertical check on the people. Majority rule across the board is NOT what our Constitution allows. It protects the rights of minorities and other rights including property rights. This false idea is one of the main reason's our republic is dying and govt is out of control. There IS no more balance.

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 01:34 PM
No they're not. It's not just an indirect democracy. The Consitution is not just a horizontal check on the three branches of govt, but also a vertical check on the people. Majority rule across the board is NOT what our Constitution allows. It protects the rights of minorities and other rights including property rights. This false idea is one of the main reason's our republic is dying and govt is out of control. There IS no more balance.

I agree with most of what you are saying. I'm not implying majority rule is "across the board." However, on important issues....ones which the masses become impassioned and resolute on, majority rule WILL prevail. Of course there are Constitutional protections and limits; however, checks and balances apply to specific instances and circumstances. All else, ultimately, is left to majority rule....IF, and it's a big "if"....the people choose to make it a priority, and communicate it to their political reprentatives in an unambiguous and clear way. The Depression brought despair and desparation that caused Americans to demand socialistic reforms of the New Deal. Of course, we are still living....good and bad....with that legacy.

Our republic isn't dying at all; we just need to rediscover our own roles in holding politicians accountable. Unfortunately, we seem to apathetic, complacent, and distracted for that system to work the way it should. I'm convinced we can take it back, if only we were to choose to do it.

BucEyedPea
01-30-2008, 01:40 PM
IThe Depression brought despair and desparation that caused Americans to demand socialistic reforms of the New Deal. Of course, we are still living....good and bad....with that legacy.
Many of those were also struck down,as they should have been. FDR tried to pack the courts because the Constitution stands in the way of socialism. Even Wilson, opened the door by getting the executive branch involved legislation when it was a weak office originally. It took the Butler case in the SC (1930s) to change all this which opened the door to all the rest. Before, then property rights of capitalism were routinely defended.

Our republic isn't dying at all; we just need to rediscover our own roles in holding politicians accountable. Unfortunately, we seem to apathetic, complacent, and distracted for that system to work the way it should. I'm convinced we can take it back, if only we were to choose to do it.
Yeah, well that sounds good on paper but I doubt it will happen. I think we're going to more socialized. There's even talk of nationalizing the airlines by some.
Nope I don't see it. I don't see McCain appointing strict constructionists either.

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 02:21 PM
Many of those were also struck down,as they should have been. FDR tried to pack the courts because the Constitution stands in the way of socialism. Even Wilson, opened the door by getting the executive branch involved legislation when it was a weak office originally. It took the Butler case in the SC (1930s) to change all this which opened the door to all the rest. Before, then property rights of capitalism were routinely defended.

Yeah, well that sounds good on paper but I doubt it will happen. I think we're going to more socialized. There's even talk of nationalizing the airlines by some.
Nope I don't see it. I don't see McCain appointing strict constructionists either.

The size and scope of increased executive authority and the bureaucracy began under Jackson, accelerated greatly under Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt, and became the behemoth that it is (potentially, at least)....under Wilson (while the 16th amendment opened up a potentially big revenue stream) and then FDR. Yes, there was some resistance on more radical elements of the New Deal....but the Lion's share was eagerly embraced by Americans, fortunately or unfortunately depending on one's view. Butler kicked the door in, and LBJ's Great Society was the last real "burst." Ever since then, it's become a self-perpetuating and self-promoting monster. However, it's come with the full support and blessings of American voters.....who only have their own apathy and complacency to blame for it, really. Politicians merely continue giving us what we demand.

Yeah, it's pretty pathetic when you think about it like that.

As for McCain's choices; I strongly suspect they would be more "constructionist" oriented appointments than we'll see from either Hillary or Obama. Another "con" for Obama for me.... :huh:

patteeu
01-30-2008, 02:59 PM
As for McCain's choices; I strongly suspect they would be more "constructionist" oriented appointments than we'll see from either Hillary or Obama. Another "con" for Obama for me.... :huh:

If McCain gets the nomination, I'll hope for the best, but I'll expect nominations like Sandra Day O'Conner who was nominated to her previous court position by Bruce Babbit, then dem governor of AZ. They won't be nearly as bad as the judges that Hillary or Obama would nominate, but they won't finish off the shift of the court that has been in process for so long either.

Mr. Kotter
01-30-2008, 10:18 PM
If McCain gets the nomination, I'll hope for the best, but I'll expect nominations like Sandra Day O'Conner who was nominated to her previous court position by Bruce Babbit, then dem governor of AZ. They won't be nearly as bad as the judges that Hillary or Obama would nominate, but they won't finish off the shift of the court that has been in process for so long either.

For the past two or three days....he's made it clear, he'll fight for Alito-Roberts sort of justices.

You may not believe him; I do. :shrug:

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-30-2008, 11:20 PM
ROFL @ McCain-Feingold being a bill that "restricts free speech".

Stick to your hackneyed tripe about your infatuation with baseball, dipshit.

patteeu
01-31-2008, 12:54 AM
For the past two or three days....he's made it clear, he'll fight for Alito-Roberts sort of justices.

You may not believe him; I do. :shrug:

Yeah, the past two or three days. Great. :(

If he gets the nomination, I'll be hoping he lives up to that. I have more faith in Romney and had more in Rudy, which is the biggest reason I preferred the two of them over McCain.

Mr. Kotter
01-31-2008, 07:51 AM
ROFL @ McCain-Feingold being a bill that "restricts free speech".

Stick to your hackneyed tripe about your infatuation with baseball, dipshit.

I agree that campaign finance issues are fair game to at least some significant restrictions, but Buckley versus Vallejo, and some of the court rulings on the bill.....suggest their is some significant sympathy in the courts for the argument.