View Full Version : NFBT: Royals - Time to pull the plug?

08-04-2001, 10:51 PM
I see the Royals lost yet again this evening. I think that puts them 24 games under 500, and they were pretty much eliminated from post-season contention during spring training.

I feel bad writing this - I always loved the Royals and fondly remember the days of George Brett, back before baseball was ruined by big market greed. Back when they were competitive. Back in the days before they were nothing more than a breeding ground for other teams' superstars and cannon fodder for the likes of New York and Cleveland (and pretty much everyone else). As a Chiefs fan, I'm obviously not a fair weather kind of guy - but I do want my team to at least be able to show up. I want to at least have the slighest glimmer of hope that my team can compete, might make the playoffs, might even have the slightest, most minute chance of going to the Series. For Kansas City baseball fans, those days are quite obviously long gone.

When they dumped Dye last week, that kind of felt like the last straw. I admit that I don't know what's going on with whatever bunch of douchebags that own the Royals, but it is blatantly clear that they either are unwilling or unable to field a competitve team. Of course, whether they're just getting buried by the millions of big market dollars or just don't care, the result is the same. One pathetic loss after another, one lost season after another. Short of some salary cap miracle, I don't ever see things improving. At this point, I'm too ashamed of them to wear my Royals stuff out of the house.

So would we be better off without them? Should the team be disbanded, or sold off to another city? Should Kaufman Stadium be torn down to make more parking spaces for Arrowhead? Sadly, I say yes. I've lost pretty much all interest in baseball at this point, and I'm so sick of New York winning the damned Series ever year I could puke. Were it not for my wife being a die-hard Braves fan, I likely would never watch or even think about it anymore. Ironically, I'm going to a baseball game tomorrow - Braves/Brewers in Milwaukee. But it's all for her. I personally just hope it's not too hot and that I can stay awake for 9 innings so I won't miss the ten minutes of action the game will probably contain. God, I miss football.

What are your thoughts? Is it better to die with a shred of dignity or live on in life support wallowing in hopeless shame?

Sometimes, IMO, death is better.

keg in kc
08-04-2001, 11:02 PM
Come on, man, think about the Chiefs for a second - 24 years without a playoff win after winning in all. 2 whole playoff wins in the last 31 years, and both of those in the same season.

And here you are...

I can understand giving up on baseball as a game if you just don't like it or the way it's run or whatever, but don't just give up on the Royals. Find another way to vent (I'm refusing to go to another game at the "K" until Muser is fired). They have a plan, what that plan is I don't entirely know, but maybe they just didn't think the nucleus they had worked and they're starting over. I do know they have some of the best looking young pitching in the league and in the minors. Whatever it is. Maybe they're not spending the money now hoping the league will be fixed in a year or two and they'll be able to legitimately compete. I don't know, but hey, giving up on the Royals now is like giving up on the Chiefs in about 1985...

08-04-2001, 11:07 PM
I think I am with Frazod on this one. I remember alot of great times wathcing the royals play, but when you are pretty sure they are gonna lose before the first pitch, every game, every year, for this many years-stick a fork in them they are done. I don't ever see them getting good with baseballs current structure-

Besides think of all the extra parking at arrowhead

08-04-2001, 11:10 PM
Unfortunately the big market teams are adamantly opposed to sharing any of their TV revenue. The only thing that will fix baseball is when small market teams begin folding and the big market teams will have less teams to beat up on. Only then might they see the light.

08-04-2001, 11:12 PM
Answer: No. I love the Royals and no matter how bad they are, there will never be any justification to me for "pulling the plug."

Regarding the Dye deal, who cares. The team was 20 games under .500 with him. His departure didn't change anything, except now Dee Brown gets to play everyday. The trade was not a cost cutting move because Perez is going to be making similar money in arbitration the next two years. I'm willing to let Allard Baird try to put together his team.

The thing behind this team is that they're still young. Their starting staff must mature. You're looking at two of the guys they hope can be their aces in Durbin and George as just rookies. The bullpen still needs to be bolstered too. The Royals also need to find themselves a catcher, a real manager, and mature a bit. When you can't buy your way to the top, it takes time to build through the draft. Minnesota sucked for eight years before putting together this club. The A's sucked for some time after their run in the late 80's, early 90's, before they had guys like Hudson, Mulder and Zito step into their rotation. The Royals, you gotta remember, were without an owner for 7 years and Herk Robinson was running the club. It takes time to recover from that disaster.

We'll see what the labor negotiations bring this offseason. If the status quo is maintained, the Royals can become good for a time, like the A's perhaps, then have all their guys become free agents and leave for the New Yorks and the LA's and have to start over. Or, a deal is reached, and there will be some more competetive balance.

But at this point, the Royals deserve to get the plug pulled as much as, say, the Baltimore Orioles, or the Cincinnati Reds.

Tony Muser though, now there is a plug that must be pulled...

08-04-2001, 11:20 PM
The only problem with an orthodox "rebuild with youth" program is that when these guys mature into solid players the Royals won't be able to afford them anymore. If they were to sign alot of these guys to long term deals, I would believe they were serious about winning. But apparently they dont have the $$ to do it.

08-04-2001, 11:21 PM
Baseball is screwed up, and as long as the commissioner is also an owner it will continue to be. However I agree, the Royals are still KC's team, and you can't pull the plug.

People here in Atlanta ***** all the time about the Braves, who are a pretty damn good team (and can't beat the Yankees either). The only thing I would hate about a salary cap is how it would break up teams. I'm not a big braves fan (or even baseball fan for that matter), but I've lived here 8 years and have grown to be fans of Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine. To me these guys are like having Joe Montana, Dan Marino, and John Elway all on the same team. If a salary cap ever comes into play, you can say goodbye to groups like this, just like in the NFL.

I think a big part of being a fan is the overall experience of going to a game with 40,000 or so people who love the team just as much as you. At that point winning is just icing on the cake, especailly if the BBQ is good!


08-04-2001, 11:21 PM
Kyle, I don't feel this way about the Royals because they don't win - I feel this way because they have NO CHANCE of winning. That young talent you speak of will break into baseball in Kansas City, hone their skills, and then sign big money contracts with the Atlantas and New Yorks of the world. We're nothing more than a universal farm team.

The Chiefs exist in a system where any team from any city can win it all. They always have a chance. Every team in football does. That's why I'm still here after 30 years of abject failure. But modern baseball is an entirely different creature. The days of competition and equity are gone. We just don't have a chance. We're Pee Wee Herman fighting f#ckin Mike Tyson. What's the point? It's long past the point of being a character builder.

The day a salary cap is imposed on MLB, I'll give it another look. But the vile greedy scumbags who control the business will never let that happen. It'll die first, and I think baseball in general is on its way to the grave. And when I remember what the game used to be, that's a damn shame.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-04-2001, 11:25 PM
If I had it my way, I would kick the Royals out of town and make more space for parking. If I had it my way, I would get rid of baseball all together.

But thats just me.:)


hates baseball...its gay, IMO

08-04-2001, 11:32 PM
I can't help but feel in a way that the Royals are handicapped by Kauffman Stadium. They would almost be better off if they were playing in a dump so that HOK could build the best baseball stadium in the country right in their own backyard in downtown KC with all the bells and whistles that would give the Royals a huge bump in revenue, allowing them to give some more guys bigger and longer deals, and at the same time revitalizing downtown KC. Alas, with the K, neither is going to happen...

08-04-2001, 11:35 PM
Damn, Cody, that's the first hateful and negative thing I've ever heard you say. Is that really you, or is someone else using your computer?

Dtebbe, I went to a game at Turner Field about a month ago (as I said, my wife is die-hard psycho Braves fan). The tickets were a wedding gift, so I don't know how much they cost (but I'm sure I wouldn't want to know), but the concessions were outrageously expensive - the worst I've ever seen. $11.50 for nachos and a friggin Coke! And apparently I'm not the only one who thought things were a bit pricy, because the place was half-empty on a beautiful Sunday evening. Of course, I wonder how much of that $11.50 went right into Chipper Jones' pocket.

My point is another of modern baseball's terminal failures - pricing the average Joe out of attending games. While prices for other sports are going through the roof as well, baseball offers at least twice as many games to attend as the others (10 times more than football). It seems that based on this alone they could cut costs and still make a killing. But, of course, the last thing they care about is us.

Why should we care about them?

keg in kc
08-04-2001, 11:39 PM
Frazod, what you're saying sounds to me you've given up on major league baseball, not the Royals. Like I said, I can understand that...

Chiefs Pantalones
08-04-2001, 11:43 PM
Seriously, Frazod. But I really do hate the game of baseball. What is the freakin point of the game anyway? Its boring, IMO.


although it must be good being a baseball player, you don't have to lift weights or anything(have you seen some of those pitchers:eek: )

weak mans game, IMO

08-04-2001, 11:46 PM
Yeah, I think you're right. If I was a Yankees fan, or a Braves fan, I'm sure I wouldn't care.

The Royals are victims of modern baseball. They're in ICU on life support, and Steinbrenner's the attending physician. I don't foresee a miraculous recovery.

keg in kc
08-04-2001, 11:47 PM
Cody, either you've never played baseball before, or you really sucked at it and the coach put you out in right field and told you not to move.

Go out and pitch 6 or 7 innings sometime. We'll see what you think about it being a "weak mans game" after your arm falls off.

Boring to watch, maybe, but it's not boring to play.

And they do lift weights (as well as have complete nutrition programs). And these guys play 3 hour games daily in 90+ degree heat.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-04-2001, 11:51 PM
I've played baseball before, actually, I was SS. It was boring. Not fun to play. I like football better, you were always doing something, and I loved to play, and, I actually loved to practice too.


sees your point, but, I tried it, and I didn't like it, too slow.

08-04-2001, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by frazod

Dtebbe, I went to a game at Turner Field about a month ago (as I said, my wife is die-hard psycho Braves fan). The tickets were a wedding gift, so I don't know how much they cost (but I'm sure I wouldn't want to know), but the concessions were outrageously expensive - the worst I've ever seen. $11.50 for nachos and a friggin Coke! And apparently I'm not the only one who thought things were a bit pricy, because the place was half-empty on a beautiful Sunday evening. Of course, I wonder how much of that $11.50 went right into Chipper Jones' pocket.

If you guys want to come down again, let me know and I will give you some passes. The great thing about Turner Field is that you can bring your own food and drink (sorry no alchohol, you have to buy that) in with you. We usually pick up some subs and bring a jug of lemonade. They also have $5 tickets that go on sale an hour before the game (to keep scalpers from buying them). I do agree that the food is expensive there. When they first opened it they did not allow you to bring in your own food/drink. People raised holy hell since you always could at Fulton County stadium. A week later they allowed food to come in. The following week they made a lady dump out her kids sippy cup of water at the gate. The lady called every media outlet in town, which jumped all over it and a week or two later they went back to the old rule. I guess the moral of the story is that it may take $6 nachos to put a good team on the field :)


keg in kc
08-04-2001, 11:54 PM
That I can understand.

Saying "baseball sucks and p*ssies play it" is like saying offensive linemen aren't athletes because they weigh 300 pounds...

08-04-2001, 11:54 PM
Dawolf - How is a new stadium with all the bells in whistles suddenly going to make people spend money on a team that is still not any good? Of course I still can't figure out why anyone would want to build a stadium downtown either, of course that may be because I have issues with building in traffic to already bottle necked areas. Of course as far as high tech I can follow, I think if KC wants to build a light rail system, build something more high-tech, build something cool that people will want to ride in because of the neat factor.

Enough babbeling...

keg in kc
08-05-2001, 12:00 AM
Folks are spending money on sucky teams in new stadiums in Pittsburgh and Milwaukee right now...

Kaufmann is a money pit. It's going to take hundreds of millions to renovate it and then they're going to ask for a new stadium in 10 years anyway. You can argue to downtown vs. sports complex all you like (good arguments for both sides...), but you can't argue the fact that the "K", while pretty, is way, way, way behind in terms of amenities as well as in terms of revenue-generating facilities like suites. It's not like Arrowhead, which is arguable the best experience in football and where the team is clearly happy and willing to stay indefinitely. The Royals aren't willing to make any committment past 2015 (the current lease).

Chiefs Pantalones
08-05-2001, 12:01 AM
Yeah, you're right, Kyle.


never thought of it like that:D

08-05-2001, 12:01 AM
Cody does touch on another thing about baseball that p!sses me off.

In order to be a great baseball player, you have to have the God-given talent to play the game. Skills can be honed, the body can be conditioned, but unless you're born with the ability to throw that ball 90 miles an hour, or see it coming at you at 90 miles an hour, pick up the rotation and hit it correctly, you're screwed. Look at Michael Jordan - arguably one of the best atheletes on the planet. Regardless of his skills, he didn't have the gift - and made a fool of himself in the minor leagues until he finally came to his senses and got the hell out.

You don't have to be in great shape to play baseball (guys like Barry Jones and Mike Kruk come to mind). You just need the gift of talent and desire to compete. Other than pitchers, who destroy their throwing arms, and catchers, who destroy their knees, every other position player who has the skills can play for years without the serious risk of injury that men who play other sports deal with every second they're on the field or the court.

The thing that angers me, then, is how baseball players seem to whine the loudest about salary when they risk the least compared to other professional atheletes. They seem to raise greed to the next level. Look at that bastard PAY-ROD, for example. The guy makes more money in a single AT-BAT than I do in a year. How in the hell could anyone justify giving that clown so much money? Not unless he's gonna hit a home run at every at bat and guarantee a World Series win. The funny thing is Texas SUCKS. And they richly deserve to.

These guys should be a little more thankful to be blessed with the natural talent that enables them to play a f#cking game for a living and quit worrying about new and improved ways to separate the fan from his hard-earned dollars.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-05-2001, 12:03 AM
You think if I writer a letter to the owner of the Royals and try to convince him to move the team because the Chiefs need more parking, etc. You think he'll bite?



08-05-2001, 12:04 AM
The Pirates suck and they're selling outevery game. I'm not saying that if the Royals continuously suck that they can maintain attendance. But the first few years there would be regular sellouts, you draw the tourists from out of town around the midwest states to come in and visit, the local economy gets a big boost, and meanwhile the Royals could use the increased revenue to sign some of their young guys to long term deals like the Cleveland Indians did a few years ago after getting into the Jake, then you can maintain your nice little nucleus for a while. But the K is just too nice, so they're going to have to spend money to renovate it for now and try to squeeze some more money out of it.

As to the part about building a downtown ballpark, it'll never happen of course because too many people have issues with it. It is Kansas City after all, the town that I love but that never seems to get anything done. At least they ought to build an arena to replace that dreadful humiliation that is Kemper.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-05-2001, 12:09 AM

Two words say it all...football town. That would be different if the Royals were good, etc.

keg in kc
08-05-2001, 12:10 AM
DaWolf, if the growth/expansion of the suburbs at the expense of the city itself continues, there won't be a Kansas City 25 years from now. That's the thing that bothers me the most, but apparently nobody but me sees it...

08-05-2001, 12:12 AM
Speaking of new stadiums, I'll be going to Miller Park in Milwaukee for the first time tomorrow. That, at least, I look forward to. Will give a full report when I get back.

And the new stadium has certainly revitalized interest in the Brewers - tomorrow's game is a sell-out. Of course, they still suck, and don't have the cash to compete with big market teams. The new building won't be new forever.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-05-2001, 12:14 AM
I think those empty seats at the K are the people that are waiting for football to start, or playing Bball, or golf, IMO.

08-05-2001, 12:23 AM
As Joe Posnanski has said many times in his articles before, this is still a baseball town waiting to re-happen. Problem is, ever since the strike, there's been nothing to come out and cheer for.

The Royals have a good group of fans, but they need something that they know will be a good product and will be around for a while. If people know that there is little hope, then as fans they try to put it in the background and not think about it so much to dull the pain, which winds up leading to apathy.

I'm one of those guys that, win or lose, would be there (if I were still living out there, right now I have to settle for Pac Bell Park). I wish we had more of those fans. But Royals fans are generally the laid back type it seems, so if you take hope away from them, they try to turn to other things so as to not have to think about it so much...

Chiefs Pantalones
08-05-2001, 12:30 AM
I guess so, DW.

Heres to hoping the Royals some how revive for you and other Royals fans!!!!

08-05-2001, 12:30 AM
Good point Kyle...

08-05-2001, 12:33 AM
Right now I am thankful for two things in this world:

1) Jalapeno Cheese Balls (have you tried these things, they're great!)

2) Tony Muser is not the head coach of the Kansas City Chiefs...

08-05-2001, 12:36 AM
Damn BB just burped and my post disappeared...

Dawolf - I would be all for them replacing Kemper with something along the lines of the Pepsi Center in Denver, very hi-tech from what I have heard and it is big enough to support both a NHL and an NBA franchise, something I don't think Kemper can do anymore.

Is there any reason that we can build a second K out at Truman Sports Complex and then tear down the onld one and make into pakring. Sure parking could be a pain for a few years, but I think it is an idea that makes a lot more sense then downtown. I don't really think that the current K could be used for anything more then it is being used for now, even though some others have come up with ideas, I just don't think any of them will work.

Fraz - Hopefully something can be worked out in the next set of negotiations, since both sides will be scared what will happen if there is another strike season.

Keg - What is wrong with KC being the place you work and everything else go on around it, I have lived in KC most of the time since the late 70's and still haven't needed to ever really go downtown for anything.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-05-2001, 12:38 AM
Amen, DW. Amen.:D

08-05-2001, 12:47 AM
Morph, the biggest problem I see with baseball putting in a salary cap is that the cap would have to be so high in order to accomodate the bloated superstar salaries that small market teams wouldn't be able to approach reaching it. The cap would have to go hand-in-hand with revenue sharing. Good luck on that one.

It seems to me that the best thing that could happen to MLB would be the owners growing some balls and drawing the line - tell the players "Look, this is what we're going to pay you, and if you don't like it, go see if you can get a job at Denny's making 2 Million a year." If the players don't agree, then they should be banned from MLB for life. There are others waiting in the wings to fill their positions. Then, instead of pocketing the savings (which, unfortunately, they would) the savings should be passed on to the fans in the form of lower ticket, concession and advertising prices, thus revitalizing interest in the game and filling the seats.

I'd also bust that f#cking players union. The lowest paid baseball players are making six figures. The idea that people this rich who play a game for a living need a labor union is just offense as hell to me.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-05-2001, 12:49 AM
Not trying to change the topic to politics (please don't) but I have to tell you about this kick *** bumper sticker. The people were from Florida and the bumper sticker said, "Your vote counts...but not in Florida."

I was laughing my *** off, not really because of the bumper sticker, but because the people were from Florida. :D

Anyway, back to the Chiefs:) ;)

keg in kc
08-05-2001, 01:24 AM
Morph, last I checked more businesses were leaving than coming in town, so the issue of working in KC will be moot in about 25 years too. There's not much in the way of shopping, good bars/restaurants or things to see in downtown, which is probably why you haven't ever really needed to go downtown for anything.

What would be wrong, exactly, with catching the train from the suburbs to go downtown and see a ballgame in the new stadium, and then stay in town and get blitzed at the new sportsbar, or have a nice dessert and after dinner wine at a restaurant, and then take the train home. Or take the train to the arena and do the same thing...

If parking and/or traffic are a problem, FIX IT!

How about having a Plaza-esque shopping area downtown, but with shops normal non-yuppies would be interested in?

There are, literally, hundred of things that could be done, reasonable things to boot, that could revive the downtown area, make it vibrant without turning it into the midwest's version of downtown DC. Give us restaurants, give us bars, give us shopping, give us a decent museum, give us things to do and see *in one central location*.

I don't want Mayor Barnes' (she's a joke, btw) three-pronged downtown or whatever completely idiotic chiche she's spouted in order to keep from doing anything that might cost her reelection.

Bob Dole
08-05-2001, 08:14 AM
After the Royals' trades the past few weeks, Bob Dole is about to lapse into "why do I bother to care" mode.

Bob Dole understands that economics probably meant that Dye was headed out, but we should have gotten more than we did in return. Then as a stellar follow-up, we got absolutely <b>nothing</b> for Rey Sanchez.

The Royals are a farm club for the rest of baseball, and it's not going to change until some sort of revenue sharing agreement is reached. We develop the players, and some other yahoo offers them 10 times the salary and they bolt.

Bob Dole wouldn't feel any differently if there was a new, gee-whiz stadium, either, and Bob Dole doesn't think many others would. What "amenities" are we talking about here? In-seat fellatio and cunnilingus? The new will wear off in less than a season and you're still stuck with a team that sucks.

08-05-2001, 08:29 AM
I normally do not respond to NFBTs, however, I guess this beats songs, movies, food and all the other multitude of topics on the CHIEFS bulletin board, at least it is sports related. I was a baseball fanatic from my childhood years until the mid 70s. Each of the work stoppages have taken their toll, and I find myself, occasionally watching a Royals game, very occasionally, since they are hardly ever on national TV. I read the Stars report in the morning, and rarely even look at the national standings. I may watch a playoff game or two, and catch a few WS games. Basically, I think BB has done this to me. You can't lay all the blame on big markets, the Twins, Mariners to a degree, and the A's last year are proof that small market teams can survive. The Royals have had very little, or virtually no organization since Mr. K died. We now have an owner who made his living in the discount business, so what can we expect. Muser will not be fired until the end of the year, at best, because Glass is not going to pay two managers at once. A new stadium downtonw, get real. I left KC in 1980, and they were trying to revitalize it then, and thru the years, have made many failed attempts. It was a cesspool then, and it's a cesspool now. But if they are going to build, it should be an arena, not a stadium. I really hope the Royals can turn things around, but my own prediction, unless a radical change in the agreement comes soon, the Royals will join the NBA team, and the NHL team as memories in the next 5 years.

08-05-2001, 08:39 AM
Fraz - Not entirely true. You just have to do what the NBA did, this was in my thread that burped and I forgot to retype, or decided not to. Anyway, for the extremely high paid players you write in an exception for the length of their contract. Of course after the contract is up, well back to fitting under the cap. It might be kind of ugly for a couple of years, but no worse then it is now.

Keg - A stadium downtown will not bring in the kind of traffic your wanting, if they want to build something like the rest of what you said then maybe, but how are you really going to get people from Oak Park mall. the Plaza. or Westport to go to the one down town? If I remember correctly those people from StL said this idea didn't work very well there. Also, how are you going to tail gate or anything when you take a bus/or train like bus? I'm not saying don't develop downtown, but you really have to make something that is a draw to people every weekend.

08-05-2001, 01:53 PM
We will not have a choice one this. After this BB season the BB CBA up & some of the owners are adament about not playing BB again until MLB is reduced to 28 (or even 26) teams. The process is called "contraction".

Montreal is a virtual lock to be contracted. However, unlike the NFL, NBA & NHL there needs to be a even # of teams in MLB.

The twins were the most likely candidate to be contracted however, their success makes contracting them politcally incorrect & thus their franchise will allowed to continue to exist. This team had lowest payroll and is one of the younger teams in MLB. The players should be commended for playing above their heads and saving MLB in the twins cities. (Even if they miss post-season play IMO they are safe from being contracted.)

So if Minn. is out who will join Montreal. In my opinion there are 2 candidates, KC and Tampa Bay. (Some say Florida, but I don't see MLB leaving the Miami market.) KC's pluses is our history (w/ a HOF'er & that David Glass is reported to be a good friend of Bud Selig). Our minuses is our school system, our infrastructure backlog, and the location of our stadiums.

I believe if contraction does occur cities that are being considered for contraction will have to make a pitch to MLB why they should be allowed to keep their franchises, similar to the expansion process where cities try to sell the league on why the should have a franchise. It would not suprise me if other cities make sure MLB is fully aware of KC's faults if contraction becomes a reality.

I'm a little disappointed in KC that they seem to be ignoring the fact contraction is a possibility & more importantly don't appear to be getting a gameplan together to save the Royals.

Also, if contraction does happen the "k" becomes a white elephant that the KC Chiefs may become responsible for (that would depend on the terms of the stadium lease). Since ALL revenues are equally shared now in the NFL, don't be suprised if that Royals dissolved & the Chiefs aren't allowed to demolish the "K" but must maintain upkeep that the NFL owners may suddenly "solve" the problem of the nation's #2 TV market not having a NFL team. (NOTE: SPECULATION ALERT - WORST CASE SCENERIO.)

08-05-2001, 02:13 PM
You must not be true Royal's fan if you want them to pull the plug on the team.

Would you want the plug pulled on the Chiefs if they were in a similar situation?

What needs to happen is an owner that actually has the funds to run a MLB team should buy the Royals. Glass obviously doesn't have the money to compete. They need to get a salary cap, and the Royals need to be sold to an owner with deep pockets that will keep the team in KC. There should be a minimum amount of money that an owner can spend on the team. And if that owner can't spend that much, he should be forced to sell the team.

keg in kc
08-05-2001, 02:56 PM
Morph, I've talked about this alot on other threads. What I want is not just a downtown stadium - building that by itself would be as idiotic as building the light rail by itself is. What I want to see is a multi-phase long-term (20 year) plan that would incorporate a number of ideas, including (but not limited to) a ballpark, arena, light rail, performing arts center, hotels, restaurants and bars, road construction updating, refurbishment of arrowhead, transformation of the "K" to an ampitheater, and probably a few other things.

Won't happen though, you can stick a fork in Kansas City IMHO, because the city government is more worried about staying in office than actually doing anything. There's no leadership, no foresight and the problems with the schools, while not directly related, are completely indicative of the sort of the sort of leaders this dying city has.

Bob Dole, the "amenities" I was referring to are the things (like bathrooms and suites) that are going to be added to Kaufman stadium with a price tag over 150 million if/when the current plan goes through, that didn't have anything to do with the new stadium Although, however, the fact is, if the Royals stay in town, they'll be asking for a new stadium within a decade even if we do the renovation - they've already stated publicly that they don't like the idea of being in a 40-50 year old stadium in the not-so-distant future.

Like I said, though, I honestly think that whatever happens with the Royals, stay or go, unless there's some major turnover in the city "government" (I use that term loosely) all this won't matter in 15 or 20 years, because Kansas City won't exist anymore, anyway, or if it does, we'll be talking about a city of about 100,000 surrounded by millions in the suburbs (and we're not far off from that now...).

08-05-2001, 06:14 PM
First problem is that KC does not have any potential owners with the kind of money that is needed in todays Baseball economy.this has always been true. Second problem, if you think attendance is down now, you are only at the tip of the iceberg. Attendance would probably plummet to between 500 and 750 thousand a seaons with a similar team in a downtown ballpark. KCs downtown is not somewhere you want to be especially if you have to park and leave to the suburbs. Finally baseball is killing itself, heck even here in San Diego a City that can draw on 3 million people possibly as many as 5 million if you add in the Tijuana - Rosarito areas of Baja California (Mexico)the attendance is pitiful. They too think the great new downtown park opening in 2003 is going to save them what a joke. There are so many other things to do here that a downtown stadium is probably going to exacerbate the problem. Revenue does not happen in a stadium filled with only 5-15,000 people folks whether downtown or in the suburbs.

Revenue sharing is the answer and it is not happening in Baseball, this year or ever. What you will probably see is a constant cycle of franchise shifting after an initial contraction. Teams in the smaller markets will rotate for incentives offered by other cities to stay alive. Eventually this process will probably dwindle the leagues back to two ten team leagues with 16 permanent members and 4 floaters.

Fortunately for me the last strike pretty much killed my interest in baseball so I occasionally check on the Padres and Royal but I have not watched an entire game on TV in almost five years and that includes the World Series. I occasionally make a Padres game but that will end when they move downtown (I will probably go once just to see what all the hubbub was about but forget fighting that traffic and parking) but then I will probably never attend a game in person again. Baseball as a national sport is dying, it is not just dying in KC. I see the Royals moving to another city in the next 5 to 7 years so do not waste any money on stadium renovation or building a new one on them is my best advice.

I sincerely hope I am wrong but being a realist the writing is on the wall.

keg in kc
08-05-2001, 06:36 PM
Jim, I'd agree with all of that except the commentary about KCs downtown. Then again, I refuse to live in fear of any area and I'm as comfortable there as I am anywhere else in the KC metro (actually there's really not anyone there to fear, it's virtually a ghost town in at least 50% of downtown). But other than that, I'd agree that baseball is dying a slow death, and its ownership isn't interested in doing anything that might keep it alive outside of the major cities.

I really want KC to survive and strive, but it's not going to happen. I should say, though, out of fairness to the suburb lovers, that my ultimate goal is to live about a half hour out of the city with nobody within a mile of me in any direction, 'cause, well, I'm a hermit. ;)

So I guess ultimately I'm as guilty for the slow death of KC as anyone else...

08-05-2001, 07:31 PM
Keg - The reason many people move to KC and stay in KC is that it has the advantages of a large city with amuesment parks, malls, night life and pro sports teams, but also can still have a smaller town community feeling when living out in the berbs.

So I guess your feeling about KC is pretty close to right on, because people do not move here for the city living feeling, but more ther ability to still feel a part of a community. Who knows, if KC becomes empty enough some brilliant devolpers will buy up the land cheep, rip huge sections down and rebuild again.

I guess I will never see adding a sportscomplex downtown because they would have to rip up so much of it just to build real parking, not this stupid parking thing they have at Kemper, but more the atmosphere that they have at Truman. Of course I will stick to my guns on light rail as it doesn't have enough cool factor to really help out any part of the city. The "You mean I can sit on something that looks like a bus and goes 25 mph to get somewhere?", is really just not gonna get many KCitians excited enough to use it.

keg in kc
08-05-2001, 07:55 PM
Morph, the point is, though, that as the suburbs grow and the center dies, that very community that you're speaking of will die. You won't have Kansas City, you'll have Johnson County City, and Platte/Clay county City, and Jackson County City (the dying one...). Kansas City as a whole won't survive if the entity at the center dies, and the branches that have grown from it will break off. Some will form their own trees, and other will simply die.

Also, downtown development fits exactly into what you described with folks living in the burbs and going into the city to do things. It's no different. I don't want Manhattan here any more than anyone else does. At the same time, I'd like to see Kansas City still in existance 50 years from now (assuming I'm still alive...).

I don't like light rail, by the way, but I think it could be a part of a larger plan. I'm certainly not voting for it on Tuesday because I believe the plan is just a waste of $$$.

08-05-2001, 08:12 PM
"But the K is just too nice"

If you have a nice house, in a great location, but need more room, do you add on or tear it down to build a new one in a bad neighborhood? It would be crazy to tear down one of the nicest baseball parks instead of just upgrading it. Someone mentioned that it would take millions to upgrade, but failed to mention that it would cost much more to replace it with a new stadium.

08-05-2001, 08:13 PM
Keg - I don't see KC as a city, but a sum of the parts that make up KC, such as Johnson county and the like. To state it another way, there are people in New York City that never leave their burb and wonder why anyone would want to. The way I see it the city is most of the things not in the city, World/Oceans of Fun, the Race track, the Chiefs and Royals and all of those have always been somewhere in the burbs and that is where the people go. Having the middle of the city less strong does not mean that the other parts are going to be more weak. I believe things are normally cyclical and the fact that everything is spreading now will lead to a contraction with people filling up the gaps left by people who moved out of the city. What it takes to build up a part of the city is safety, heck in the Mall of America is in a bad part of town and it hasn't improved anything around it and it has a lot of the things that could attract people, theme park, bars, restaurants...

What it will come down to is a gap big enough in the city that some rich investors tear down a chunk of the old buildings and build some rich housing, after that everything will fall into line. In fact that is the only way I can see downtowns improving, because if rich people move in, then more things will be fixed up and almost as rich people will feel safe enough to move next door, devolpers will see the new life and start building big mall, resteraunts and a night life.

As for the city gov't, I don't think I would give them a dime myself because, like you, I don't believe they have a clue. They need someone with original thoughts and ideas, because making KC like other cities is not what gets people excited, making KC a unique expierience would.

keg in kc
08-05-2001, 08:22 PM
splatbass, nobody is ignoring the fact that it'll cost in the neigborhood of 300-450 million to build a new stadium right now. The question is this, however: Is it wiser to spend 150-170 million on renovation, plus the 10 million they spend annually on the K already to keep it going, and then build a new stadium in 10-15 years (the Royals will not extend their lease, they've said this publicly), or is it wiser to go ahead and build the new stadium in the next 10 years and spend less to renovate the K in the interim?

The downtown vs. Truman complex issue is completely removed from the new stadium vs. renovation issue. We will have to build a new stadium in the next 10 to 15 years or there won't be any Royals games to go see (which wouldn't bother some people) because the team will be in another city. They don't want to be in the position where they're playing games in a 50 year old stadium.

I like the downtown idea, myself, but I'd be happy with a new stadium at the Trumen complex, as long as ownership demonstrates they're willing to at least try to put a winning product on the field (that's issue #1 IMHO - if they can't compete, there's no reason to have a team...).

As for destroying the "K", that's not necessarily the only option. You could lease the property to Lamar Hunt (or Clark...) and allow them to convert the facility into a stadium for the Wizards. You could also convert the stadium into an open air concert venue to compete with Sandstone (it would blow Sandstone away, IMHO, simply because of the parking).

Anyway, don't get the new stadium issue and the downtown/Truman issue confused, because they're not the same (even though the media seems to be treating them as such...).

keg in kc
08-05-2001, 08:28 PM
Morph, I'd agree with that, except I see parts of "KC" trying to break away, like Johnson county. I really get this attitude that the superior folks on the Kansas side are trying to stay as far away from the undesirable poor losers on the Missouri side as is physically possible. I attribute this to poor leadership (in Mo., as in KCMO) as much as to the arrogant attitude, however. KCMO is just letting everything go into the burgs (primarily JoCo) and net even putting up a fight. It's kind of sad, IMHO.

A good example of this is Olathe building a new arena but KCMO sits on its hands...

Maybe my views will change as I spend more time here, but this is what I've seen in the last two years...

08-05-2001, 08:40 PM
Pull the plug on my beloved Royals? I couldn't do it. The Royals and baseball were my first love (sports wise), and my personality being what it is I could not turn my back on them. If Cubs fans can go forever with a sucky team, so can I.

Some have said that baseball is dying, if so that is fine, because the game itself won't die. If MLB doesn't get its act together and save their business, then they will be gone and some enterprising people will see an opportunity to form a new leauge with better rules. Now my preference is that MLB gets their collective heads screwed on straight - but I won't hold my breath.

would probably sufficate if I did

Archie F. Swin
08-05-2001, 08:45 PM
. . . It's true that Royals teams have left something to be desired over the last 8 years or so. But I think what is really putting a bad taste in our mouths is the fact that the Royals' losing ways are ground into our heads for such a considerable amount of time.

I mean, does it really take 162 games to determine who the better team is? If the MLB season eneded in mid July would the Royals season be so painful for thier fans? If the Royals are havin a bad season, we hear night after night on Sportcenter that the Royals stunk it up again . . . for nearly six months! That has to be psycologically damaging to players coaches and fans. How does a team stay in business with a fully functional, electricity sucking stadium with empty seats? I doubt its just us who lose interest . . . I'm sure the coaches and a few players would rather be doing somehtin else. After the break only the die-hards care whats goin on in baseball (save for homerun streaks and all)

oh well . . . I have no solutions . . . I want the Royals to stick around though . . . for a long time

KS Smitty
08-05-2001, 08:47 PM
I think alot of the KS/MO thing you're seeing is a direct result of the unification of KCKS with Wyandotte County making just one level of Government for that area. I'm sure that with only one form of local gov't (instead of city and county) they are savin beaucoup bucks and are feeling pretty smug.

08-05-2001, 08:51 PM
Sorry guys.....always been a Cards fan. More from here are..Royals have't done squat in soooooo long hard to watch them. :eek:

08-05-2001, 09:00 PM
If the MLB season eneded in mid July would the Royals season be so painful for thier fans?

Yes. Losing is losing.

keg in kc
08-05-2001, 09:03 PM
In all seriouness, like both the NHL and NBA, I agree that the MLB season is way too long. I find it hard to maintain any level of interest in any of those sports until playoff time.

Football is just right, although I think I could handle dropping a preseason game or two and expanding to an 18 game regular-season schedule.

08-05-2001, 09:07 PM
As promised, a review of the new Miller Park - I like it. A huge, towering place with four separate tiers of seats, stacked close enough that even the upper seats would have a decent view of the field. The retractable roof is a great idea, too, although they didn't need it today. The food, as with the old County Stadium, was great, and reasonably priced (by MLB standards) - $6.25 for nachos and a Coke as opposed to $11.50 for the same thing at Turner Field in Atlanta. The place was also filled to capacity.

Of course, none of this stopped the small market Brewers from getting the crap pounded out of them by the big market, big money Braves. A first inning grand slam by Milwaukee was wasted as they lost 12-8. Of course, the only player on the Brewers I knew by name, Marquis Grissom, was trade to Los Angeles last week, and the remaining poor no-name bastards played much like you'd expect in their utterly predictable loss to Chipper & Co.

Much like the Royals, the Brewers are way below .500 and have no chance against the big boys. Not even a beautiful, brand-new stadium packed with fans seems able to save them from the harsh realities of the business. It's really sad to watch.

But the wife loved it.