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dirk digler
03-01-2008, 09:56 AM
I thought this was interesting article and hopefully this will shut up the doubters (Denise) on Obama's faith and that he is not a Christian.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-wallis/defending-the-facts-on-ob_b_89271.html
Defending the Facts on Obama's Faith (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-wallis/defending-the-facts-on-ob_b_89271.html)

Posted February 29, 2008 | 05:13 PM (EST)

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I don't endorse political candidates, but I will defend them when it becomes necessary. On this, I agree with my friend, Richard Land (http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2007/10/video-jim-wallis-and-richard-l.html), the conservative Southern Baptist leader who is often identified with the Religious Right. Richard and I agree that faith has a place in politics and, when we agree on fundamental moral questions, have worked together (http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2007/10/a-message-to-all-values-voters.html). Richard says (http://erlc.com/article/sbcs-land-neither-defense-nor-assessment-should-be-confused-with-endorsemen), "I have defended various candidates from time to time when I've felt that they have been unfairly or inaccurately criticized. At other times, I have been asked by the media for my assessment of a particular candidate's chances or weaknesses and strengths. Neither defense nor assessment should be confused with endorsement. As a matter of policy, I have not endorsed, do not endorse and will not endorse candidates."

So I am going to defend my friend, Barack Obama, from an increasing number of ridiculous and scurrilous attacks on the Internet and in the media. The latest incident occurred when a loud-mouth radio talk show host in Cincinnati let loose with a barrage of disparaging remarks against Senator Obama and kept using his middle name--Barack HUSSEIN Obama--over and over, seemingly to tie into the Internet accusations that Obama is really a Muslim who, as a child, attended a Muslim "madrassa" school in Indonesia that taught Islamic fundamentalism, etc. As a Chicago Tribune blog piece (http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/obamas_middle_name_is_american.html) commented, "Anyone who uses Obama's middle name (http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2008/02/i-love-my-name-by-omar-alrikab.html) repeatedly, like Cincinnati radio host Bill Cunningham the other day, knows what he or she is doing and what feelings they are trying to evoke. There's simply nothing innocent about it."

The occasion for the shock jock's diatribe was his introduction of Senator John McCain at a rally. To his great credit, McCain denounced the remarks when he heard about them, disassociated himself from this kind of attack, and reaffirmed that his campaign would be conducted on higher ground. Good for you, John McCain. So of course, the local loud-mouth, Bill Cunningham, quickly withdrew his support from McCain and now is denouncing him too; which, of course, was quickly picked up by his mentor, the national radio loud-mouth Rush Limbaugh (whom the local Cunningham seems to desperately "wannabe"). And, of course, Rush is now denouncing both Obama and McCain.

I watched last night as other cable news shows told this story and subtly tried to add more fuel to the fire. Lou Dobbs downplayed the Cincinnati outburst as unimportant and suggested it was no different that telling the world that John McCain's middle name is "Sydney." Sure Lou; and it was interesting that Dobbs followed with more innuendos and rolled eyes over the moment in the Tuesday Democratic debate when Obama was asked about Louis Farrakhan, about suspicions that Barack's home Trinity Church on the south side of Chicago was "black nationalist," and about why Obama's pastor, Jeremiah Wright, wouldn't come on Lou's show to discuss his alleged sympathies for Farrakhan, etc. It is certainly no mystery why Pastor Wright didn't cancel his retirement celebrations and drop everything to come on Lou's show. Would anyone?

An Associated Press story titled "Obama Fights False Links to Islam (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jwzuhvpZ6wva0fP4gSqusiq4U_aQD8V30O901)" commented on the new flare-up, "For Barack Obama, it is an ember that he has doused time and again, only to see it flicker anew: links to Islam fanned by false rumors, innuendo, and association."

During the Democratic debate, Obama again "denounced and rejected" the ugly anti-Semitic comments that Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan has often made, as he had done many times before. Farrakhan hadn't actually endorsed Obama, but recently said, "This young man is the hope of the entire world that America will change and be made better." Asked on Tuesday night about whether he would accept Farrakhan's support, Obama said: "I live in Chicago. He lives in Chicago. I've been very clear, in terms of me believing that what he has said is reprehensible and inappropriate. And I have consistently distanced myself from him."

So let's set the record straight. I have known Barack Obama for more than 10 years, and we have been talking about his Christian faith (http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2008/01/the-truth-about-obamas-faith-b.html)for a decade. Like me and many other Christians, he agrees with the need to reach out to Muslims around the world, especially if we are ever to defeat Islamic fundamentalism. But he is not a Muslim, never has been, never attended a Muslim madrassa, and does not attend a black "separatist" church. Rather, he has told me the story of his coming from an agnostic household, becoming a community organizer on Chicago's South Side who worked with the churches, and how he began attending one of them. Trinity Church is one of the most prominent and respected churches in Chicago and the nation, and its pastor, Jeremiah Wright, is one of the leading revival preachers in the black church. Ebony magazine once named him one of America's 15 best Black preachers. The church says it is "unashamedly black and unapologetically Christian," like any good black church would, but is decidedly not "separatist," as its white members and friends would attest.

And one Sunday, as Obama has related to me and written in his book The Audacity of Hope, the young community organizer walked down the aisle and gave his life to Christ in a very personal and very real Christian conversion experience. We have talked about our faith (http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2007/06/transcript-presidential-forum-on-faith.html) and its relationship to politics many times since. And after Obama gave his speech (http://www.barackobama.com/tv/speeches.php)at a Sojourners/Call to Renewal conference in June 2006, E.J. Dionne (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/29/AR2006062901778.html) said that it may have been "the most important pronouncement by a Democrat on faith and politics since John F. Kennedy's Houston speech in 1960 declaring his independence from the Vatican."


Like his politics or not, support his candidacy or not - but don't disparage Barack Obama's faith, his church, his minister, or his credibility as an eloquent Christian layman who feels a vocation in politics. Those falsehoods are simply vicious lies and should be denounced by people of faith from across the political spectrum.

dirk digler
03-01-2008, 09:58 AM
And another

<!-- Begin #content-wrapper --><!-- Begin .post --> Monday, January 28, 2008
The Truth About Obama's Faith (by Obery Hendricks) (http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2008/01/the-truth-about-obamas-faith-b.html)

Everyday there seems to be some new outrageous charge leveled at Barack Obama. One of the most pernicious is that he is a Muslim who is dishonestly masquerading as a Christian. This charge is so malicious - and so untrue - that it is time to set the record straight.
Barack Obama has never been a Muslim. He has never attended a Muslim school. From about age eight to age nine Obama lived in Indonesia, the most populous Muslim country on earth, with more Muslim schools than one can count, yet his parents chose to enroll him in a secular, non-religious school comprised of teachers and students of all faiths. Nor can it be said that during his brief sojourn in Indonesia that his worldview was tainted by Islamic extremism; when Obama lived there, the practice of Islam in Indonesia was still among the world's most moderate.
Another false charge is that rather than using a Bible to be sworn into his elected office, Senator Obama instead used the Qur'an, the holy book of the Muslim faith. That is also a falsehood. The most cursory check of the facts shows that it was not Barack Obama who was sworn in with a Qur'an. It was Keith Ellison, the proudly Muslim congressman from Minnesota.
But by far the ugliest charge is that Barack Obama is lying about his Christian faith. The truth is that for years now, Barack Obama has been a baptized, fully confessed and practicing Christian, not only with his lips inside a church but, more importantly, with his limbs out in the community - striving to help the neediest and the most vulnerable of our brothers and sisters of all creeds and colors.
It is correct that Obama was not born into the Christian faith. Rather, Barack Obama made a conscious decision as a mature adult to become part of the body of Christ. One measure of the seriousness of his faith is that he has been an active and faithful churchgoer since he embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ as his own.

dirk digler
03-01-2008, 10:07 AM
And the last one. Now if anyone has real proof that Obama is hoodwinking all us with being a fake Christian then I will do what I always do with hypocritical religious people. I will call them hypocrites and have nothing further to do with them.


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jwzuhvpZ6wva0fP4gSqusiq4U_aQD8V30O901

Obama Fights False Links to Islam

By JIM KUHNHENN Ė 2 days ago
WASHINGTON (AP) ó For Barack Obama, it is an ember that he has doused time and again, only to see it flicker anew: links to Islam fanned by false rumors, innuendo and association.


Obama and his campaign reacted strongly this week when a photo of him in Kenyan tribal garb began spreading on the Internet. And the praise he received Sunday from Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan prompted pointed questions ó during Tuesday night's presidential debate and also in a private meeting over the weekend with Jewish leaders in Cleveland.
During the debate, Obama repeated his denunciation of Farrakhan's views, which have included numerous anti-Semitic comments. And, after being pressed, he rejected Farrakhan's support in the presidential race.
The Democratic candidate says repeatedly that he's a Christian who took the oath of office on a family Bible. Yet on the Internet and on talk radio ó and in a campaign introduction for John McCain this week ó he is often depicted, falsely, as a Muslim with shadowy ties and his middle name, Hussein, is emphasized as a reminder of Iraq's former leader.


"If anyone is still puzzled about the facts, in fact I have never been a Muslim," he told the Jewish leaders in Cleveland, according to a transcript of the private session.

If there is confusion ó and opportunity for political mischief ó it derives at least in part from Obama's rich cultural background. His mother was a white woman from Kansas, his father was Kenyan and he spent part of his childhood in Indonesia, a largely Muslim country.


"My grandfather, who was Kenyan, converted to Christianity, then converted to Islam," Obama said Sunday. "My father never practiced; he was basically agnostic. So, other than my name and the fact that I lived in a populous Muslim country for four years when I was a child, I have very little connection to the Islamic religion."

He took his Senate oath with his hand on a family Bible, and he says, "Whenever I'm in the United States Senate, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America." In fact, no candidate could survive if he publicly spurned the pledge.


_ Another false report says he attended a Muslim madrassa school as a child in Jakarta. Obama was born in Hawaii and moved to Indonesia when he was 6 to live with his mother and stepfather. He returned to Hawaii when he was 10 to live with his maternal grandparents. Interviews last year by The Associated Press at the elementary school in Jakarta found that it is a public and secular institution and has been open to students of all faiths since before Obama attended in the late 1960s. Said vice principal Akmad Solichin: "Yes, most of our students are Muslim, but there are Christians as well. Everyone's welcome here."


_ Obama also has faced questions about his pastor at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, where he has been a member for 20 years. Trinity calls itself "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian." But it accepts non-black congregants. The United Church of Christ's president and general minister, the Rev. John H. Thomas, was quoted in a church publication as pointing out that the Rev. Jane Fisler-Hoffman, Illinois Conference Minister, who is white, "has been a member of the congregation for years."

Baby Lee
03-01-2008, 10:07 AM
From purely a rhetorical POV, saying his church is prominent and respected and led by what some call one of the 15 best Black preachers, is not a strong defense against criticism of specific stances.

dirk digler
03-01-2008, 10:11 AM
From purely a rhetorical POV, saying his church is prominent and respected and led by what some call one of the 15 best Black preachers, is not a strong defense against criticism of specific stances.

I would agree with that but my point being certain people question whether he is a Christian and not a Muslim when the evidence is over whelming IMHO.

Baby Lee
03-01-2008, 10:15 AM
I would agree with that but my point being certain people question whether he is a Christian and not a Muslim when the evidence is over whelming IMHO.

I was --><-- this close to adding 'unless your only point is that they consider themselves Christian and not Muslim.'

patteeu
03-01-2008, 02:53 PM
And the last one. Now if anyone has real proof that Obama is hoodwinking all us with being a fake Christian then I will do what I always do with hypocritical religious people. I will call them hypocrites and have nothing further to do with them.

You've done a great job of collecting statements about things that were already pretty clear (i.e. Obama isn't a muslim), but you've done nothing to reduce my skepticism about Obama's faith. To be honest, I don't think there is anything you can do in that regard. Obama is the only person who can do that and it will take exposure to him over a significant period of time for that. It doesn't help him at all that the church he chose to join is about as close to agnosticism as you can get in the Christian constellation.

memyselfI
03-01-2008, 03:02 PM
You've done a great job of collecting statements about things that were already pretty clear (i.e. Obama isn't a muslim), but you've done nothing to reduce my skepticism about Obama's faith. To be honest, I don't think there is anything you can do in that regard. Obama is the only person who can do that and it will take exposure to him over a significant period of time for that. It doesn't help him at all that the church he chose to join is about as close to agnosticism as you can get in the Christian constellation.

Exactly. On a compendium of Christianity, UCC is almost the fringe of Christianity while still being Christian. He was born to a Muslim father, raised with a Muslim stepfather and atheist mother (who obviously really DUG Muslim men) and then by his Grandparents who were Unitarians.

There is nothing in Obamessiah's history to consider him remotely mainstream Christian. Even lightly liberal would be a stretch. His church and his upbringing point to a Christian faith that is one of the most radically un-orthodox Christian there is. Again, nothing wrong with it but having been involved in that type of Christian denomination then you understand it's Christianity for reticent Christians.

Nice try though. You have to learn more about UCC and liberal Christian faiths to really see what my point is here.

Logical
03-01-2008, 03:47 PM
Exactly. On a compendium of Christianity, UCC is almost the fringe of Christianity while still being Christian. He was born to a Muslim father, raised with a Muslim stepfather and atheist mother (who obviously really DUG Muslim men) and then by his Grandparents who were Unitarians.

There is nothing in Obamessiah's history to consider him remotely mainstream Christian. Even lightly liberal would be a stretch. His church and his upbringing point to a Christian faith that is one of the most radically un-orthodox Christian there is. Again, nothing wrong with it but having been involved in that type of Christian denomination then you understand it's Christianity for reticent Christians.

Nice try though. You have to learn more about UCC and liberal Christian faiths to really see what my point is here.

Pretty darn sure his birth father is LUO Kenyan and not muslim at all.:shrug:

Baby Lee
03-01-2008, 04:00 PM
Pretty darn sure his birth father is LUO Kenyan and not muslim at all.:shrug:
Yeah?
I'm pretty sure my dad's an American, so I guess I'm not Christian?
The accepted account is that Obama's father was raised Muslim, but was atheist by the time he married Obama's mother.
“Although my father had been raised a Muslim, by the time he met my mother he was a confirmed atheist.”

Logical
03-01-2008, 04:09 PM
Yeah?
I'm pretty sure my dad's an American, so I guess I'm not Christian?
The accepted account is that Obama's father was raised Muslim, but was atheist by the time he married Obama's mother.
OK he is an atheist, even better in my view.

patteeu
03-01-2008, 04:36 PM
Just a random thought, but I bet there are more atheists/agnostics affiliated with al Qaeda than Christians.

:Poke:

Pitt Gorilla
03-01-2008, 04:46 PM
You've done a great job of collecting statements about things that were already pretty clear (i.e. Obama isn't a muslim), but you've done nothing to reduce my skepticism about Obama's faith. To be honest, I don't think there is anything you can do in that regard. Obama is the only person who can do that and it will take exposure to him over a significant period of time for that. It doesn't help him at all that the church he chose to join is about as close to agnosticism as you can get in the Christian constellation.You sound as though you want/need your skepticism reduced. I'm finding it difficult to see how his degree of "Christianhood" matters.

HolmeZz
03-01-2008, 04:49 PM
I'm eagerly awaiting Pat's questioning of McCain's religious beliefs, who went from being a Baptist to being an Episcopalian. Or the other way around. Or something.

tiptap
03-01-2008, 05:19 PM
Yeah?
I'm pretty sure my dad's an American, so I guess I'm not Christian?
The accepted account is that Obama's father was raised Muslim, but was atheist by the time he married Obama's mother.

Shall we make you mad Baby and question whether RLDS is Christian? After all the "extreme" or "fringe" Christian groups are all about expanding and interpreting the collection of source material.

tiptap
03-01-2008, 05:25 PM
Just a random thought, but I bet there are more atheists/agnostics affiliated with al Qaeda than Christians.

:Poke:

We know from discussions in the 80's that bin Ladin thought protestant Christianity was close to Muslim belief. The emphasis on the authority of interpretation of the holy writ, Koran rather than the mismanaged Bible. If you had ever had a discussion in a foreign country with Muslims and let it slip you were an atheist, you wouldn't be saying this at all. You are truly an infidel if you are even agnostic. That type of thinking is exactly what the devil brings to the theology of Muslims. Questioning god.

patteeu
03-02-2008, 01:15 PM
You sound as though you want/need your skepticism reduced. I'm finding it difficult to see how his degree of "Christianhood" matters.

No, I won't be supporting Obama now or in the GE so it won't matter to me either way. It's Obama's defenders who seem to have a need to believe in the authenticity of their candidate's faith commitment.

Mr. Laz
03-02-2008, 01:19 PM
who gives a shit what his faith is

unless the candidate plans on using his presidency to try and convert the nation then i don't care.

run the country
use your brain
take care of the people
pray,meditate or whatever on your own time

patteeu
03-02-2008, 01:28 PM
I'm eagerly awaiting Pat's questioning of McCain's religious beliefs, who went from being a Baptist to being an Episcopalian. Or the other way around. Or something.

I'm very skeptical about McCain when he tries to pass himself off as a religious person. It should be pretty clear to most that he's alternated between castigating religious conservatives and embracing them. McCain may well be as agnostic/faithless as I suspect Obama is. My best guess would be that he's not very religious.

If I have to guess which one was more likely a believer, I'd have to go with McCain.

1) I don't have any knowledge of McCain's parents being committed atheists or agnostics like Obama's were although maybe they were.

2) He's been pretty reliably anti-abortion throughout his career whereas Obama is pro-legalized-abortion.

3) Both Episcopalian and Baptist are deeper into mainstream Christianity than Obama's church of choice.

4) He's quite a bit older and I think there's a tendency for adults to become more faithful as they advance in age.

Is that good enough?

patteeu
03-02-2008, 01:31 PM
We know from discussions in the 80's that bin Ladin thought protestant Christianity was close to Muslim belief. The emphasis on the authority of interpretation of the holy writ, Koran rather than the mismanaged Bible. If you had ever had a discussion in a foreign country with Muslims and let it slip you were an atheist, you wouldn't be saying this at all. You are truly an infidel if you are even agnostic. That type of thinking is exactly what the devil brings to the theology of Muslims. Questioning god.

I don't think there are likely to be many agnostics/atheists in al Qaeda, but I think it's more likely that there are closet agnositcs involved in that organization (people raised in islam who don't really believe in their faith anymore but who go through the motions for the very reasons you mention above) than closet Christians. I don't have any proof, but it seems like common sense to me. :shrug:

dirk digler
03-02-2008, 02:14 PM
You've done a great job of collecting statements about things that were already pretty clear (i.e. Obama isn't a muslim), but you've done nothing to reduce my skepticism about Obama's faith. To be honest, I don't think there is anything you can do in that regard. Obama is the only person who can do that and it will take exposure to him over a significant period of time for that. It doesn't help him at all that the church he chose to join is about as close to agnosticism as you can get in the Christian constellation.

From everything that I have read about the UCC, it is called a mainline Protestant Christian denomination. To me that doesn't sound close to being agnositic.

As far as the rest of your post I agree and the more he talks about it the more it will help him.

In a letter read during services, the Democratic presidential candidate said his Christian faith is important to him and leads him to believe "ordinary people, with the grace of an awesome God, can do extraordinary things."

Also in South Carolina, Obama assured members of the Redemption World Outreach Center, a largely white evangelical megachurch in Greenville, "I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing faith in the public square, and I think there's nothing wrong with public servants expressing religiously rooted values."


Last June, in a talk at the General Synod in Hartford, Conn., celebrating the 50th anniversary of the UCC, Obama urged church members to continue to be "troublemakers" for progressive causes such as civil rights.
"Doing the Lord's work is a thread that runs through our politics since the very beginning," he said.


For the first time in a long time, Olson said, Democrats have a candidate who can speak in a prophetic voice "that resonates in broad ways with people of faith."

Baby Lee
03-02-2008, 03:15 PM
Shall we make you mad Baby and question whether RLDS is Christian? After all the "extreme" or "fringe" Christian groups are all about expanding and interpreting the collection of source material.
1. There is no RLDS church anymore. They're called Community of Christ.
2. I have no idea what the Community of Christ is. I've jokingly termed it the organizational version of 'God is Great, God is good, let us thank him for our food.'

They have officially disowned any idea of 'creed,' citing an amorphous 'series of beliefs' that have traditionally been shared but are not necessarily true, purely for the sake of reference. Basically your relationship with God and code of personal conduct is whatever makes you comfortable.

They started with women in the priesthood, and they've since opened Communion [formerly a sacrament which was an abomination if a church member partook without reflection, repentance and forgiveness of others, let alone anyone who walks in], are toying with accepting baptism in other faiths as sufficient, and have turned most sabbath services over to the kids [literally, 10 year olds doing the prayers, oblation, scripture readings, unordained teens giving the sermon].

They are moving away from the idea of sacred texts, bringing in any thing from King James to NIV to the Bible for Dummies as reference texts, again whatever makes you personally comfortable.

Having entrenched for a decade or so the shedding of the idea that there's a God who has concrete expectations of us, in favor of a God who just wants to be friends, they've started a push for us to take worldly/political stances, ie 'God's call' to be anti-war, green, pro-gay, pro-immigration, advocating for poverty programs, etc. Now regardless of your position on those issues, I hold, let's say I STRONGLY hold, that those matters are the province of a PAC, not my church.

IMO, a church that is consumed with the affairs of this world, with no concern for the affairs of eternity has a fundamental problem of identity.

Logical
03-02-2008, 03:25 PM
Just a random thought, but I bet there are more atheists/agnostics affiliated with al Qaeda than Christians.

:Poke:
Interesting theory, any facts to support

patteeu
03-02-2008, 03:34 PM
Interesting theory, any facts to support

Nope, but I explained my theory further in post #20.

ClevelandBronco
03-02-2008, 04:52 PM
From everything that I have read about the UCC, it is called a mainline Protestant Christian denomination...

This is a pretty good site:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_divi2.htm

They present a definition of mainline that would not include UCC.

ClevelandBronco
03-02-2008, 04:54 PM
...I have no idea what the Community of Christ is. I've jokingly termed it the organizational version of 'God is Great, God is good, let us thank him for our food.'...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rlds.htm

memyselfI
03-02-2008, 04:55 PM
From everything that I have read about the UCC, it is called a mainline Protestant Christian denomination. To me that doesn't sound close to being agnositic.

As far as the rest of your post I agree and the more he talks about it the more it will help him.

I don't know what you've read besides propobamaganda but would a third party source help you believe that UCC is a liberal entity within Christianity??? I am sorry if it conflicts with your illusion of Obama and that he can't rewrite UCC's historical reality to coincide with his aspirations. :rolleyes:


http://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8028_1.html

Also sometimes referred to as secular, modern, or humanistic. This is an umbrella term for Protestant denominations, or churches within denominations, that view the Bible as the witness of God rather than the word of God, to be interpreted in its historical context through critical analysis. Examples include some churches within Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and United Church of Christ. There are more than 2,000 Protestant denominations offering a wide range of beliefs from extremely liberal to mainline to ultra-conservative and those that include characteristics on both ends. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_divi2.htm

Liberal wing: (e.g. United Church of Christ). They see major parts of the Bible as reflecting God's will. But they generally reject other portions of the Bible as being no longer valid: They see such stories as the Genesis creation sequence, the virgin conception of Jesus, and world-wide Noahic flood, etc. as religious myths or folklore: stories of immense spiritual power, but unrelated to actual historical events.
They see that many Bible passages and themes must interpreted as evil and as contradicting the will of God (e.g. passages which regulate slavery, advocate genocide, assign an inferior role to women, promote religious intolerance, condemn homosexuality, etc.)
They regard Hell in symbolic terms, not as a place of eternal torment.
They regard the Bible as errant, having been written by individuals without the direct inspiration of God, whose motivation was to promote their own theological and spiritual beliefs.
They generally believe in the theory of evolution (either theistic evolution or naturalistic evolution).
They are keen to learn from theological studies into the historical Jesus in order to better understand what his precise teachings were.

On social matters, they rely heavily on the findings of social and natural sciences. Most: Are political liberals, independents, or moderates.
Give a high priority to combating racism, sexism, poverty, and homophobia.
Are supportive of abortion access and educational programs to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
Believe that a person's sexual orientation is largely genetically pre-determined, is not chosen, is fixed, natural, normal for a minority of humans, and is morally neutral. Relationships should be evaluated by their quality, not by the gender(s) of the couple. Many liberal denominations will conduct union services for gays and lesbians and will ordain homosexuals who are celibate or in committed relationships. Some support same-sex marriage for loving, committed same-sex couples.

memyselfI
03-02-2008, 04:58 PM
This is a pretty good site:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_divi2.htm

They present a definition of mainline that would not include UCC.

Wow, you and I were reading the same site. I also quoted it. It's a great site as is Beliefnet.

ClevelandBronco
03-02-2008, 05:01 PM
Wow, you and I were reading the same site. I also quoted it. It's a great site as is Beliefnet.

Like peas in a pod we are. :D

memyselfI
03-02-2008, 05:03 PM
Like peas in a pod we are. :D

SCARY. LOL ROFL

dirk digler
03-02-2008, 05:31 PM
This is a pretty good site:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_divi2.htm

They present a definition of mainline that would not include UCC.

Thanks I see they have them liberal which doesn't = agnostic.

Here is wikipedia which calls them mainline. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ

Logical
03-02-2008, 06:11 PM
I just want someone to explain why his faith is important at all. I think his plans are what we should be discussing.

ClevelandBronco
03-02-2008, 06:15 PM
I just want someone to explain why his faith is important at all. I think his plans are what we should be discussing.

Here's an idea. Start a thread about his plans and ignore this one.

Logical
03-02-2008, 06:24 PM
Here's an idea. Start a thread about his plans and ignore this one.
Done
http://75.125.205.90/BB/showthread.php?t=181058

memyselfI
03-02-2008, 07:12 PM
Thanks I see they have them liberal which doesn't = agnostic.

Here is wikipedia which calls them mainline. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ

I think UCC actually considers itself 'progressive Christianity' which is just a less negative way of saying 'liberal Christianity.' That Wiki is not correct because most 'mainline' protestant were not the first or still haven't done what UCC claims they did first:

http://www.ucc.org/about-us/firsts.html

1972: Ordination of first openly gay minister

The UCC's Golden Gate Association ordains the first openly gay person as a minister in a mainline Protestant denomination: the Rev. William R. Johnson. In the following three decades, General Synod urges equal rights for homosexual citizens and calls on congregations to welcome gay, lesbian and bisexual members.

1976: First African American leader of an integrated denomination

General Synod elects the Rev. Joseph H. Evans president of the United Church of Christ. He becomes the first African American leader of a racially integrated mainline church in the United States.

1995: Singing a new song

The United Church of Christ publishes The New Century Hymnalóthe only hymnal released by a Christian church that honors in equal measure both male and female images of God. Although its poetry is contemporary, its theology is traditional. "We acknowledge the limitations of our words while we confess that in Jesus Christ the Word of God became flesh and lived within history," writes Thomas Dipko, a UCC executive who played a key role in shaping the new hymnal.


No one said they were agnostic. You are confusing them with Unitarian which is what Obamessiah's grandparents were and what his Mother was when they relocated to Seattle. Unitarians are a blend of people who are agnostic and atheist while also incorporating various religions teachings:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

Both Unitarianism and Universalism trace their roots to Christian Protestantism. Many UUs appreciate and value aspects of Islamic, Christian and Jewish spirituality, but the extent to which the elements of any particular faith tradition are incorporated into one's personal spiritual practices is a matter of personal choice in keeping with UU's creedless, non-dogmatic approach to spirituality and faith development.

memyselfI
03-02-2008, 07:32 PM
I just want someone to explain why his faith is important at all. I think his plans are what we should be discussing.

Jim, it matters because Obama has made it a point to talk about how much his minister has influenced his life and his morality. I think it behooves people who at a later time may not agree with his minister's views to at least learn about them lest they be in for a big shock later on.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/religion/profiles/chi-070121-relig_wright,0,5184608.story?page=2


What I value most about Pastor Wright is not his day-to-day political advice," Obama said. "He's much more of a sounding board for me to make sure that I am speaking as truthfully about what I believe as possible and that I'm not losing myself in some of the hype and hoopla and stress that's involved in national politics."



In his 1993 memoir "Dreams from My Father," Obama recounts in vivid detail his first meeting with Wright in 1985. The pastor warned the community activist that getting involved with Trinity might turn off other black clergy because of the church's radical reputation.

When Obama sought his own church community, he felt increasingly at home at Trinity. Before leaving for Harvard Law School in 1988, he responded to one of Wright's altar calls and declared a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Later he would base his 2004 keynote speech to the Democratic National Convention on a Wright sermon called "Audacity to Hope," --also the inspiration for Obama's second memoir, "The Audacity of Hope."

Though Wright and Obama do not often talk one-on-one often, the senator does check with his pastor before making any bold political moves.

Logical
03-02-2008, 08:09 PM
Jim, it matters because Obama has made it a point to talk about how much his minister has influenced his life and his morality. I think it behooves people who at a later time may not agree with his minister's views to at least learn about them lest they be in for a big shock later on.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/religion/profiles/chi-070121-relig_wright,0,5184608.story?page=2

I find all that interesting, but not really something I would or would not base my vote on.

memyselfI
03-02-2008, 08:37 PM
I find all that interesting, but not really something I would or would not base my vote on.

You may not. But if I were a moderate I'd certainly be investigating where this guy's soul feels most at home. And if I were a conservative moderate it would spook the shit out of me.

Baby Lee
03-02-2008, 08:41 PM
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rlds.htm

I don't LITERALLY have no idea what we are. I am a baptized member. I mean I don't know what we are any more.

patteeu
03-02-2008, 08:46 PM
Thanks I see they have them liberal which doesn't = agnostic.

Here is wikipedia which calls them mainline. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ

Yeah, but liberal does = what we've been saying about UCoC.

memyselfI
03-02-2008, 09:19 PM
Yeah, but liberal does = what we've been saying about UCoC.

He doesn't want to hear it, Patt. He's got Obamabrain.

dirk digler
03-02-2008, 10:29 PM
Yeah, but liberal does = what we've been saying about UCoC.

So does liberal = agnostic? No not IMO. The whole point of the thread was dismissing the stupid notion that Obama was not a Christian. I think I have gave clearly enough evidence that he is a Christian. Now everyone wants to change the debate and say it is liberal or what not but my question is, does that mean he is less a Christian than a evangelical christian?

I guess that is up to you decide.

Logical
03-02-2008, 10:48 PM
You may not. But if I were a moderate I'd certainly be investigating where this guy's soul feels most at home. And if I were a conservative moderate it would spook the shit out of me.
What does religion have to do with being a moderate?

patteeu
03-03-2008, 07:34 AM
So does liberal = agnostic? No not IMO. The whole point of the thread was dismissing the stupid notion that Obama was not a Christian. I think I have gave clearly enough evidence that he is a Christian. Now everyone wants to change the debate and say it is liberal or what not but my question is, does that mean he is less a Christian than a evangelical christian?

I guess that is up to you decide.

All you've proven in this thread is that Obama attends a nominally "Christian" church? I'd imagine that all but the most sheltered among us knew that already (particularly among the DC crowd). But don't take that as criticism of you posting this thread.

The church you attend doesn't necessarily define your commitment to faith. Like I said before, I'm agnostic but I attend catholic church weekly. My father went for years without going to church (he's baptist), but I'm confident he remained a believing Christian.

There are posers in evangelical churches (and catholic churches too, obviously), but a poser will feel more comfortable in a liberal church like Obama's.

dirk digler
03-03-2008, 08:20 AM
All you've proven in this thread is that Obama attends a nominally "Christian" church? I'd imagine that all but the most sheltered among us knew that already (particularly among the DC crowd). But don't take that as criticism of you posting this thread.

The church you attend doesn't necessarily define your commitment to faith. Like I said before, I'm agnostic but I attend catholic church weekly. My father went for years without going to church (he's baptist), but I'm confident he remained a believing Christian.

There are posers in evangelical churches (and catholic churches too, obviously), but a poser will feel more comfortable in a liberal church like Obama's.

We will agree to disagree I think I have given enough evidence to support the fact that he is Christian but I agree with your statement in one of your other posts about the more we hear from him about it the more we learn.

I definitely agree there are posers everywhere but I find it interesting that I hear and read more about the posers from evangelical Christian churches than I do liberal or mainstream. Obviously some of that is media bias.

Anyway thanks for the civilized discussion as always. :thumb:

htismaqe
03-03-2008, 08:33 AM
There are "posers" in every church. Just like there are posers in every line of work, every social club, and pretty much EVERYWHERE. It isn't unique to churches.

As for Obama, the question isn't whether or not HE is a poser. It's whether or not his CHURCH is.

patteeu
03-03-2008, 09:12 AM
We will agree to disagree I think I have given enough evidence to support the fact that he is Christian but I agree with your statement in one of your other posts about the more we hear from him about it the more we learn.

OK.

I definitely agree there are posers everywhere but I find it interesting that I hear and read more about the posers from evangelical Christian churches than I do liberal or mainstream. Obviously some of that is media bias.

I think a great deal of that is media bias and the natural (I suppose) tendency to go after supposed hypocrisy. It's similar to the uproar anytime someone hears about a gay Republican. No one thinks twice when they hear about a gay democrat. It's a lot harder to be seen as an apostate from a church that has wishy washy beliefs than it is if the church is orthodox fundamentalist with very well defined beliefs.

Anyway thanks for the civilized discussion as always. :thumb:

Thank you.

StcChief
03-03-2008, 11:43 AM
OK he is an atheist, even better in my view. that won't hold water with moderates he will desperately need to win. or is this just a show to be repeated in 8-12 years later. Try running an aethist for president

HolmeZz
03-03-2008, 11:57 AM
that won't hold water with moderates he will desperately need to win. or is this just a show to be repeated in 8-12 years later. Try running an aethist for president

They were talking about Obama's father, sparky.

Logical
03-03-2008, 12:03 PM
that won't hold water with moderates he will desperately need to win. or is this just a show to be repeated in 8-12 years later. Try running an aethist for presidentI am not saying I did not say this but I cannot find the post where I said. A little help.

StcChief
03-03-2008, 12:03 PM
They were talking about Obama's father, sparky. ok Sparky.

I don't care about Obama's father. he's isn't running for POTUS

Calcountry
03-03-2008, 12:34 PM
This election will be decided by this factor.

Whether the flippers from the Dems are > the conservatives that stay home

memyselfI
03-03-2008, 12:52 PM
OK.



I think a great deal of that is media bias and the natural (I suppose) tendency to go after supposed hypocrisy. It's similar to the uproar anytime someone hears about a gay Republican. No one thinks twice when they hear about a gay democrat. It's a lot harder to be seen as an apostate from a church that has wishy washy beliefs than it is if the church is orthodox fundamentalist with very well defined beliefs.



Thank you.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Obama would be an apostate from the Muslim religion which can be called alot of things but wishy washy I don't think is one of them.

As far as the liberal churches like UCC and Christian beliefs, I liken this type of church (having been a part of one myself) akin to having a toe in the water. You don't believe enough to swim but you are convinced enough that you need to be taking a dip.

I think most of the people who attend these type of churches, myself included, are deeply spiritual people who are not convinced religion is a necessary part of the God process. Hence, the participating in churches/denominations that are very unstructured and without dogma in comparison to mainline and conservative types. These churches also tend to be less 'Christ centered' and more open to different avenues such as alternative religious texts, different spiritual wisdoms, and beliefs.

It's is the perfect place for someone like him who had been raised in a multi-racial, multi-religious, and multi-cultural environment because the it's not exclusive but in fact very inclusive.

memyselfI
03-03-2008, 12:54 PM
ok Sparky.

I don't care about Obama's father. he's isn't running for POTUS

His father and stepfather are where Obama received his initial exposure to Islam. If they were devout believers then you can assume he was too for at least a part of life.

Contrary to what he's maintained. Remember, his mother married not one but TWO different Muslim men.

HolmeZz
03-03-2008, 12:58 PM
His father and stepfather are where Obama received his initial exposure to Islam. If they were devout believers then you can assume he was too for at least a part of life.

Contrary to what he's maintained. Remember, his mother married not one but TWO different Muslim men.

I know his book wasn't translated into 'retard', but the passage posted earlier clearly stated Obama's father was an atheist before he even met his mother.

But keep up the distortions, memeinkampfI. It's clear what your intentions are.

patteeu
03-03-2008, 01:01 PM
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Obama would be an apostate from the Muslim religion which can be called alot of things but wishy washy I don't think is one of them.

No, I was talking about how much hullabaloo would follow if we found out that someone who belonged to a loosy goosy liberal Christian church were found to be an agnostic instead of a true believer.

I think most of the people who attend these type of churches, myself included, are deeply spiritual people who are not convinced religion is a necessary part of the God process. Hence, the participating in churches/denominations that are very unstructured and without dogma in comparison to mainline and conservative types. These churches also tend to be less 'Christ centered' and more open to different avenues such as alternative religious texts, different spiritual wisdoms, and beliefs.

It's is the perfect place for someone like him who had been raised in a multi-racial, multi-religious, and multi-cultural environment because the it's not exclusive but in fact very inclusive.

I agree completely. It's weird agreeing with you. I'm sure you see it the same way.

patteeu
03-03-2008, 01:03 PM
I know his book wasn't translated into 'retard', but the passage posted earlier clearly stated Obama's father was an atheist before he even met his mother.

But keep up the distortions, memeinkampfI. It's clear what your intentions are.

Was his book written before of after he started having political aspirations? I'm not saying that the passage is untrue, I'm just saying let's not start taking the Book of Obama as a 5th gospel.

Sully
03-03-2008, 01:05 PM
Saying a UCC (United Church of CHRIST) is not Christ centered is absolutely incorrect.

HolmeZz
03-03-2008, 01:08 PM
Was his book written before of after he started having political aspirations? I'm not saying that the passage is untrue, I'm just saying let's not start taking the Book of Obama as a 5th gospel.

I know, you'd rather engage in idle baseless speculation.

'Dreams from my Father' was published in 1995.

StcChief
03-03-2008, 01:42 PM
His father and stepfather are where Obama received his initial exposure to Islam. If they were devout believers then you can assume he was too for at least a part of life.

Contrary to what he's maintained. Remember, his mother married not one but TWO different Muslim men. so she's a glutton for punishment and abuse?

Sully
03-03-2008, 01:43 PM
As far as the liberal churches like UCC and Christian beliefs, I liken this type of church (having been a part of one myself) akin to having a toe in the water. You don't believe enough to swim but you are convinced enough that you need to be taking a dip.


Perhaps the particular one you were a part of was like this.
But as a whole this couldn't be further from teh truth, and is frankly, insulting.

memyselfI
03-03-2008, 01:56 PM
I know his book wasn't translated into 'retard', but the passage posted earlier clearly stated Obama's father was an atheist before he even met his mother.

But keep up the distortions, memeinkampfI. It's clear what your intentions are.

He was a 'confirmed atheist' by the time he went to college. BOsr. met BOjr's mother IN COLLEGE. That is according to his son who didn't really know the man's views at the time since has a toddler. We only have his word to go on. I'm withholding judgment on this one...

Interestingly my former Muslim/atheist husband specifically would not allow his sons to be named a Muslim names even though really would have liked to honor his father and pass on his father's name. He felt his aversion to the religion was greater than the need to honor his father. :hmmm:

Jilly
03-03-2008, 01:57 PM
It's very insulting, imo. Many Liberal Christians, UCC and the like, dive into the waters of Christianity head first and are immersed in the Christian life. And while this thread isn't an argument about that, I think it's important to note that in spite of the headway I keep thinking we're making, the ignorance is still there as to what Christianity is. Someone in this thread even said that if a church doesn't emphasize the afterlife, then their beliefs are questionable all together. That's ignorant, Jesus taught us to pray, "Thy Kingdom come, thy WILL be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven." Giving us a clear message that life on earth is not insignificant or less important.

That's why, to me, Obama's faith is important and it's important to defend. Because personally, I want someone who sees this life as significant and who sees the life of Christ as one to follow, because whether you call yourself Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or atheist, I don't see how you could be really upset with someone who models his life after that of Jesus. Whether you believe Jesus to be the son of God or whatever you believe about him, it's hard to deny that he wasn't a good and caring person and incredible leader. And for me, I want a president who models that.

memyselfI
03-03-2008, 02:01 PM
so she's a glutton for punishment and abuse?

Maybe. I surely couldn't do it. She obviously felt very comfortable with the religion so that she would marry a second Muslim and an extremely devout one at that. :hmmm:

patteeu
03-03-2008, 02:02 PM
Saying a UCC (United Church of CHRIST) is not Christ centered is absolutely incorrect.

Yeah, OK. So nobody said that. Thanks for your groundbreaking contribution though.

StcChief
03-03-2008, 02:04 PM
Yeah, OK. So nobody said that. Thanks for your groundbreaking contribution though.I had never heard that so I assumed it was BS. considering the source

HolmeZz
03-03-2008, 02:05 PM
He was a 'confirmed atheist' by the time he went to college. BOsr. met OBjr's mother IN COLLEGE.

Yes. Hooray for reading comprehension.

That is according to his son who didn't really know the man's views at the time since has a toddler.

No kidding. So how does that make your baseless assertions more valid than his account? I'm fairly confident I know my father's opinions, both past and present, better than you do.

Interestingly my former Muslim/atheist husband specifically would not allow his sons to be named a Muslim names even though really would have liked to honor his father and pass on his father's name. He felt his aversion to the religion was greater than the need to honor his father. :hmmm:

They aren't 'muslim names', tardo. Barack is a name African in origin. Hussein is Arabic. Arabic doesn't equal Muslim.

My parents named me Joseph. Does that mean they were Church-going Christians?

htismaqe
03-03-2008, 02:07 PM
Yes. Hooray for reading comprehension.



No kidding. So how does that make your baseless assertions more valid than his account? I'm fairly confident I know my father's opinions, both past and present, better than you do.



They aren't 'muslim names', tardo. Barack is a name African in origin. Hussein is Arabic. Arabic doesn't equal Muslim.

My parents named me Joseph. Does that mean they were Church-going Christians?

Joseph is actually Hebrew in origin. :p

Cochise
03-03-2008, 02:08 PM
That's why, to me, Obama's faith is important and it's important to defend. Because personally, I want someone who sees this life as significant and who sees the life of Christ as one to follow, because whether you call yourself Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or atheist, I don't see how you could be really upset with someone who models his life after that of Jesus.

I know that when I hear someone say WWJD, I think "partial birth abortion".

:rolleyes:

patteeu
03-03-2008, 02:09 PM
I know, you'd rather engage in idle baseless speculation.

'Dreams from my Father' was published in 1995.

I said from the start that I'm speculating. If you want to believe that Obama is the most devout Christian since St. Peter, you're welcome to speculate in that direction.

Obama was first elected to the Illinois Senate in 1996. I wonder if his political ambitions materialized out of the blue that year.

memyselfI
03-03-2008, 02:09 PM
Perhaps the particular one you were a part of was like this.
But as a whole this couldn't be further from teh truth, and is frankly, insulting.

It's not insulting. It's liberating and that is why liberal churches attract so many many people of different backgrounds and previous religions. They are extremely diverse and tend to be more about God than Jesus hence it's quite an easy transition from someone who is either leaving a dogmatic religion like I did or coming from an atheist background because it's not about what the Church tells you to believe about Christ. Rather the church encouraging you to find your own understanding about Christ. Hence, my assertion of the church being less 'Christ centered.' That is why they are also considered humanist as well.

HolmeZz
03-03-2008, 02:09 PM
Joseph is actually Hebrew in origin. :p

So is Barack, actually. But I've just met more Christians with my name than Jews. ;)

Jilly
03-03-2008, 02:09 PM
I had never heard that so I assumed it was BS. considering the source

It was implied, I believe, someone and I'm not gonna go back and find the quote, we're all logical here, but someone said that UCC was as close to agnostic as you can get and still call yourself Christian and agnostics believe in God, but not in anything else....sooooo......it seems to imply, to me anyway, that UCC aren't Christocentric, right?

patteeu
03-03-2008, 02:14 PM
It's very insulting, imo. Many Liberal Christians, UCC and the like, dive into the waters of Christianity head first and are immersed in the Christian life. And while this thread isn't an argument about that, I think it's important to note that in spite of the headway I keep thinking we're making, the ignorance is still there as to what Christianity is. Someone in this thread even said that if a church doesn't emphasize the afterlife, then their beliefs are questionable all together. That's ignorant, Jesus taught us to pray, "Thy Kingdom come, thy WILL be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven." Giving us a clear message that life on earth is not insignificant or less important.

That's why, to me, Obama's faith is important and it's important to defend. Because personally, I want someone who sees this life as significant and who sees the life of Christ as one to follow, because whether you call yourself Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or atheist, I don't see how you could be really upset with someone who models his life after that of Jesus. Whether you believe Jesus to be the son of God or whatever you believe about him, it's hard to deny that he wasn't a good and caring person and incredible leader. And for me, I want a president who models that.

We've got a good and caring person, who IMO has demonstrated more leadership than either of his 2 predecessors, in office right now. If you are holding out for a truly Jesus-like person, you're going to be waiting a long time.

Jilly
03-03-2008, 02:14 PM
It's not insulting. It's liberating and that is why liberal churches attract so many many people of different backgrounds and previous religions. They are extremely diverse and tend to be more about God than Jesus hence it's quite an easy transition from someone who is either leaving a dogmatic religion like I did or coming from an atheist background because it's not about what the Church tells you to believe about Christ. Rather the church encouraging you to find your own understanding about Christ. Hence, my assertion of the church being less 'Christ centered.' That is why they are also considered humanist as well.

I would argue differently - because most liberal Christians believe that modeling the life of Christ is what is most important, which makes Jesus and studying his life more important and emphasized more, making it more Christ centered. The difference is that the emphasis is not a profession of faith and becoming "saved", but more a who was Jesus and how can I live my life like he did? And of course, this varies from church to church, which I think is the freeing element your referring to.

Jilly
03-03-2008, 02:18 PM
We've got a good and caring person, who IMO has demonstrated more leadership than either of his 2 predecessors, in office right now. If you are holding out for a truly Jesus-like person, you're going to be waiting a long time.

who spear headed a war which is far from the way Jesus lived his life.... and who believes in capital punishment, which seems to me Jesus forgave criminals, and who has done nothing for the less fortunate, which seems to me Jesus cared more about the poor than any other demographic... So if you're calling Bush Jesus-like....then it seems to me you should read the Gospels a little closer.

Sully
03-03-2008, 02:19 PM
These churches also tend to be less 'Christ centered' and more open to different avenues such as alternative religious texts, different spiritual wisdoms, and beliefs.

While they may be open to other interpretations of scripture, further study of other texts, etc... they are no less Christ Centered than any other church, in my experience... and in some cases, I would say they are more so.

HolmeZz
03-03-2008, 02:20 PM
I said from the start that I'm speculating. If you want to believe that Obama is the most devout Christian since St. Peter, you're welcome to speculate in that direction.

I don't know the extent of Obama's religious beliefs and I haven't claimed to know or care. What I dislike is the grasping at draws without having a reason to do so. And that's all memeinkampfI has been doing.

Obama was first elected to the Illinois Senate in 1996. I wonder if his political ambitions materialized out of the blue that year.

How many books would you have liked him to publish before the age of 34? It's not like it took him a length of time to actually write the book or anything either.

Sully
03-03-2008, 02:20 PM
tend to be more about God than Jesus

False.

Especially when discussing a chruch which calls itself United Church of CHRIST.

memyselfI
03-03-2008, 02:22 PM
While they may be open to other interpretations of scripture, further study of other texts, etc... they are no less Christ Centered than any other church, in my experience... and in some cases, I would say they are more so.

I'm talking centered as in exclusivity vs. actual core as I think you mean it.

Cochise
03-03-2008, 02:23 PM
I would argue differently - because most liberal Christians believe that modeling the life of Christ is what is most important

In my experience most of them prefer a marginalized caricature of him who doesn't ask anything of them. If you reinvent him as someone who doesn't want anyone to have to feel bad about themselves, and who wouldn't want any of us telling anyone that they are in error, then you get to feel good and never have to take a stand on anything. No one ever takes issue with you. If you decide that he just says, "I'm ok, you're ok", I'm certain that is very comfortable, and why people decide that's what they want to believe.

Unfortunately that invention has nothing to do with who is revealed in scripture. He doesn't say, I'm here to let you all know you need to be "good moral people" (not that any of them would agree with any of the morals he did). He says he came to bring a sword. He said he came not to abolish the old Jewish law but to fulfill it. He didn't say it didn't matter who you believed. he told Capernaum and Bethsaida that they would be thrown down into hell for rejecting him.

IMO it's blasphemous to make God over in your own image this way. I would not want to answer for that, not for all the tea in China.

memyselfI
03-03-2008, 02:30 PM
False.

Especially when discussing a chruch which calls itself United Church of CHRIST.

OK, this from their web page.


The UCC tends to be a mostly progressive denomination that unabashedly engages heart and mind. And yet, the UCC somehow manages to balance congregational autonomy with a strong commitment to unity among its nearly 6,000 congregations—despite wide differences among many local congregations on a variety of issues.

While preserving relevant portions of heritage and history dating back to the 16th century, the UCC and its forebears have proven themselves capable of moving forward, tying faith to social justice and shaping cutting edge theology and service in an ever-changing world. Affirming that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church, the UCC claims as its own the faith of the historic church expressed in the ancient creeds and reclaimed in the basic insights of the Protestant reformers.Yet the UCC also affirms the responsibility of the church in each generation and community to make faith its own in reality of worship, in honesty of thought and expression, and in purity of heart before God. It looks to the Word of God in the Scriptures, and to the presence and power of the Holy Spirit to prosper its creative and redemptive work in the world. One of the UCC's distinguishing characteristics is its penchant to believe that ... God is still speaking, ... even when it puts us out there alone. History has shown that, most often, we're only alone for a while. Besides, we receive so many gifts from our ecumenical partners, being "early" seems to be one of ours

dirk digler
03-03-2008, 02:30 PM
It was implied, I believe, someone and I'm not gonna go back and find the quote, we're all logical here, but someone said that UCC was as close to agnostic as you can get and still call yourself Christian and agnostics believe in God, but not in anything else....sooooo......it seems to imply, to me anyway, that UCC aren't Christocentric, right?

Patteeu and Denise stated that in post 7 and 8

Jilly
03-03-2008, 02:34 PM
In my experience most of them prefer a marginalized caricature of him who doesn't ask anything of them. If you reinvent him as someone who doesn't want anyone to have to feel bad about themselves, and who wouldn't want any of us telling anyone that they are in error, then you get to feel good and never have to take a stand on anything. No one ever takes issue with you. If you decide that he just says, "I'm ok, you're ok", I'm certain that is very comfortable, and why people decide that's what they want to believe.

Unfortunately that invention has nothing to do with who is revealed in scripture. He doesn't say, I'm here to let you all know you need to be "good moral people" (not that any of them would agree with any of the morals he did). He says he came to bring a sword. He said he came not to abolish the old Jewish law but to fulfill it. He didn't say it didn't matter who you believed. he told Capernaum and Bethsaida that they would be thrown down into hell for rejecting him.

IMO it's blasphemous to make God over in your own image this way. I would not want to answer for that, not for all the tea in China.

I NEVER said modeling Christ's life was an easy life.....and that it didn't hold you accountable to a certain standard. In fact, modeling the life of Christ in this world we live in is the hardest way of living - it definitely isn't a feel good kind of mentality when rubbed up next to the violence of our world and the selfishness of humanity; and that one sentence of Scripture when Christ said he came to bring the sword? It is SURROUNDED by the stories of not what he said, but what he did - and let me ask you - did you EVER, in any of the stories, witness that he raised a sword or participated in a violent act? NO, because ALL the STORIES told about Christ were about his healings, his miracles, his touching and preaching to the outcasts, the poor...and when he got upset, angry or even a little violent (turning over the money tables in the temple) it was directed toward the greed and pompous holier than thou attitudes of the Pharisees. And with exception of that One story of the tables, EVERY story told about him is nonviolent and full of compassion...it was the action of his life....and living in that kind of action in our lives is NOT easy....and I never said it was.

memyselfI
03-03-2008, 02:37 PM
In my experience most of them prefer a marginalized caricature of him who doesn't ask anything of them. If you reinvent him as someone who doesn't want anyone to have to feel bad about themselves, and who wouldn't want any of us telling anyone that they are in error, then you get to feel good and never have to take a stand on anything. No one ever takes issue with you. If you decide that he just says, "I'm ok, you're ok", I'm certain that is very comfortable, and why people decide that's what they want to believe.

Unfortunately that invention has nothing to do with who is revealed in scripture. He doesn't say, I'm here to let you all know you need to be "good moral people"

I think that first comment is blatantly unfair. The caricature of him is the one where he and God form this vicious and violent alliance that allows only certain folks with certain views to be saved and welcome into their Kingdom.

The difference is liberal vs. literal. Most liberal churches do not view the Bible as literal and the literal churches are not liberal in their interpretations of the text.

Thus, people like myself who see that religion has caused as much harm in the world as it has good, feel very torn about belonging to such a divisive entity and certainly are not sure about exposing our children to it. The liberal and progressive wings of Christianity allow persons like myself the exposure to the good without what I view is the bad and that would be the dogma and fundamentalism that the literal churches espouse.

Jilly
03-03-2008, 02:38 PM
I NEVER said modeling Christ's life was an easy life.....and that it didn't hold you accountable to a certain standard. In fact, modeling the life of Christ in this world we live in is the hardest way of living - it definitely isn't a feel good kind of mentality when rubbed up next to the violence of our world and the selfishness of humanity; and that one sentence of Scripture when Christ said he came to bring the sword? It is SURROUNDED by the stories of not what he said, but what he did - and let me ask you - did you EVER, in any of the stories, witness that he raised a sword or participated in a violent act? NO, because ALL the STORIES told about Christ were about his healings, his miracles, his touching and preaching to the outcasts, the poor...and when he got upset, angry or even a little violent (turning over the money tables in the temple) it was directed toward the greed and pompous holier than thou attitudes of the Pharisees. And with exception of that One story of the tables, EVERY story told about him is nonviolent and full of compassion...it was the action of his life....and living in that kind of action in our lives is NOT easy....and I never said it was.

And as I went back and read your post, I realized your statement was not directed at me!!!!! Oops, I'm sorry.

patteeu
03-03-2008, 02:38 PM
who spear headed a war which is far from the way Jesus lived his life.... and who believes in capital punishment, which seems to me Jesus forgave criminals, and who has done nothing for the less fortunate, which seems to me Jesus cared more about the poor than any other demographic... So if you're calling Bush Jesus-like....then it seems to me you should read the Gospels a little closer.

If you're looking for a President who will give Kim Jong-il the clothes off of America's back, or for a President who will turn the other cheek when al Qaeda or some other fanatics destroy a couple of skyscrapers in an American city and kill a few thousand Americans, or for a President who will raise the Soviet Union or the Kyoto Accord from the dead, I say nuts to that.

So no, I wasn't saying Bush is Jesus-like. In fact, I specifically said that if you're holding out for that, you're going to be waiting a long time.

StcChief
03-03-2008, 02:39 PM
It was implied, I believe, someone and I'm not gonna go back and find the quote, we're all logical here, but someone said that UCC was as close to agnostic as you can get and still call yourself Christian and agnostics believe in God, but not in anything else....sooooo......it seems to imply, to me anyway, that UCC aren't Christocentric, right?

I'm not really involved in variations/factions of denominations, but UCC are out there with some of their beliefs...

it's definitely not mainstream Christ centric Southern Baptist as alot of black churches are...

Cochise
03-03-2008, 02:39 PM
I think that first comment is blatantly unfair. The caricature of him is the one where he and God form this vicious and violent alliance that allows only certain folks with certain views to be saved and welcome into their Kingdom.

You'll have to take that up with him, not me. I didn't write it.

Cochise
03-03-2008, 02:40 PM
and that one sentence of Scripture when Christ said he came to bring the sword? It is SURROUNDED by the stories of not what he said, but what he did

So, it was a lie then.

patteeu
03-03-2008, 02:41 PM
How many books would you have liked him to publish before the age of 34? It's not like it took him a length of time to actually write the book or anything either.

It seems like we ought to be able to agree that the guy's book is as potentially self-serving as anyone else's. I think we ought to be equally reluctant to take John McCain's family memoir as the unadulterated truth.

Jilly
03-03-2008, 02:41 PM
So, it was a lie then.

you tell me, if you use your logical mind that God gave you to read the stories, then what do you see when you go back and read that statement? If you put that statement of, "I came to bring the sword, etc etc." and put it in the context of the nonviolent stories that surround it, what would it lead you to believe about that statement?

memyselfI
03-03-2008, 02:42 PM
Patteeu and Denise stated that in post 7 and 8

No, I didn't say that UCC was agnostic. I said it's close to the fringe but more mainstream than Unitarian which was what Obama's grandparents and mother became when they moved to that liberal bastion of Seattle.

memyselfI
03-03-2008, 02:43 PM
I'm not really involved in variations/factions of denominations, but UCC are out there with some of their beliefs...

it's definitely not mainstream Christ centric Southern Baptist as alot of black churches are...

Not to meniton that Obama's church and Minister are out there even for the out theres.:spock:

HolmeZz
03-03-2008, 02:49 PM
It seems like we ought to be able to agree that the guy's book is as potentially self-serving as anyone else's. I think we ought to be equally reluctant to take John McCain's family memoir as the unadulterated truth.

I think you have to have a basis for questioning it. You're basically accusing Obama, in 1995, of thinking that his father's religion(who he really never had much of a relationship with his whole life) would be so detrimental to him politically that he'd cease the potential criticism by lying and saying his father had become atheistic.

How is having a father who was an atheist any better than having a father who had been muslim? What is the thinking there?

patteeu
03-03-2008, 02:55 PM
No, I didn't say that UCC was agnostic. I said it's close to the fringe but more mainstream than Unitarian which was what Obama's grandparents and mother became when they moved to that liberal bastion of Seattle.

She's conflating a few different posts (e.g. I said UCC was about as close to agnostic as you can get in the Christian constellation and you said something about UCC being less Christocentric) along with some things that weren't posted at all (e.g. agnostics believe in God).

Jilly
03-03-2008, 03:03 PM
She's conflating a few different posts (e.g. I said UCC was about as close to agnostic as you can get in the Christian constellation and you said something about UCC being less Christocentric) along with some things that weren't posted at all (e.g. agnostics believe in God).

yes...I was simply saying that the posts all together were implying that UCC was not Christ centered

Cochise
03-03-2008, 03:52 PM
you tell me, if you use your logical mind that God gave you to read the stories, then what do you see when you go back and read that statement? If you put that statement of, "I came to bring the sword, etc etc." and put it in the context of the nonviolent stories that surround it, what would it lead you to believe about that statement?

You're saying I'm putting it in a violent context. I didn't say that at all.

I said that many people reinvent him into someone they are comfortable with, and who will never ask anything of them. That's not who he was. That's not who a plain reading reveals.

In fact if you read the sermon on the mount, he says he not only affirms the law, but he raises the standard even higher. The law said murder carried the penalty of death, but he raises it by saying if you are angry with your brother you are guilty of murder. The law says not to commit adultery, but he says if you even look on someone with lust you've already done it. He said in the same that calling someone a fool puts you in danger of hell fire.

In the Olivet discourse he says that his followers will be hated by all nations for his name's sake. Why would people hate someone who just lavished praise on them?

He talks about kindness but to say he was only ever kind and never gave any judgments or pronouncements of morality is just incorrect. He didn't come here to pat us all on the head and tell us how great we are. He said for judgment I came into the world that those who were blind may see, and those who saw may be made blind. He said his next coming will be in judgment, "as in the days of Noah".

It does us no good to, basically, worship ourselves by creating whatever god we like.

Jilly
03-03-2008, 04:16 PM
You're saying I'm putting it in a violent context. I didn't say that at all.

I said that many people reinvent him into someone they are comfortable with, and who will never ask anything of them. That's not who he was. That's not who a plain reading reveals.

In fact if you read the sermon on the mount, he says he not only affirms the law, but he raises the standard even higher. The law said murder carried the penalty of death, but he raises it by saying if you are angry with your brother you are guilty of murder. The law says not to commit adultery, but he says if you even look on someone with lust you've already done it. He said in the same that calling someone a fool puts you in danger of hell fire.

In the Olivet discourse he says that his followers will be hated by all nations for his name's sake. Why would people hate someone who just lavished praise on them?

He talks about kindness but to say he was only ever kind and never gave any judgments or pronouncements of morality is just incorrect. He didn't come here to pat us all on the head and tell us how great we are. He said for judgment I came into the world that those who were blind may see, and those who saw may be made blind. He said his next coming will be in judgment, "as in the days of Noah".

It does us no good to, basically, worship ourselves by creating whatever god we like.

It sounds to me like you read his statements literally....when I don't take the things you're referring to literally at all. In the same sermon on the mount, Jesus also requests that if your right eye causes you to sin then you should tear it out - do you believe that he meant that literally? In the same statement about being angry with a brother or sister, he says to go and be reconciled with them. And in the statement before that he says that "your righteousness should exceed that of the Pharisees and scribes" and so does that mean he literally means that we should be even more pompous then the people he seems to have had a huge issue with? no, it doesn't mean that at all because the word "righteousness", in Greek, actually means "right living", the entirety of the sermon on the mount has nothing to do with literal punishment but with living morally, which is what I've been trying to say all along and I also never said that living morally would be easy.

I agree people mold Jesus in to a feel good kind of person - but I believe that liberal Christians are way less guilty of this than evangelicals with their idea of "once saved always saved" and "I took Jesus as my savior so now I get to go to heaven" mentality.

Jilly
03-03-2008, 04:17 PM
All in all, Cochise, I think we're agreeing - that living the life of Christ is not as easy as some folks try and make it out to be.

DanT
03-03-2008, 05:26 PM
If you go to Senator Obama's website and look at the information he posts there about his religion (http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/11/12/obama_has_never_been_a_muslim_1.php#practicing-christian
), you will find a couple of interesting things. One thing that I found very interesting was the explanation that Martin E. Marty offered about Senator Obama's church. That carries a lot of weight with me because Professor Marty is someone that I know and admire very much. I was glad to read that.

The other thing you will find is that Senator Obama considers it important to have an entry explaining that his middle name is not Mohammed. That claim is a claim about facts. Senator Obama's middle name is not Mohammed. That's a fact. Senator Obama doesn't say what it is, but as far as I can tell (from looking around on the Internet), his middle name is, in fact, Hussein. I would think that if there is confusion about what somebody's middle name is, then it is a worthwhile contribution to factual reporting to repeat his middle name often, as that Cincinnati radio host did. An article whose title claims that it is defending the facts on Senator Obama's religion would do well to stick to debunking inaccurate factual claims, not criticizing the motives of folks who disseminate factual information.

One thing I can't stand is people that claim they are about factual reporting when all they are really about is trying to get everyone to ignore facts that they don't like. The author of the Huffington Post article needs to call his whining an example of fact hatred, not fact defense.

DanT
03-03-2008, 05:42 PM
By the way, none of my names is Mohammed, let alone my middle name. ;)

Jenson71
03-03-2008, 06:30 PM
I said that many people reinvent him into someone they are comfortable with, and who will never ask anything of them. That's not who he was. That's not who a plain reading reveals.

In fact if you read the sermon on the mount, he says he not only affirms the law, but he raises the standard even higher. The law said murder carried the penalty of death, but he raises it by saying if you are angry with your brother you are guilty of murder. The law says not to commit adultery, but he says if you even look on someone with lust you've already done it. He said in the same that calling someone a fool puts you in danger of hell fire.


It begs me to question, Cochise. Do you think you're going to hell if you look at someone with lust? That's what the plain reading says. Are you slaughtering calves for Yahweh? Are you not eating pork? Are you not reinventing Jesus into someone you're comfortable with?

Logical
03-03-2008, 06:36 PM
Welcome back DanT it is good to see you posting again.

Cochise
03-03-2008, 06:55 PM
It begs me to question, Cochise. Do you think you're going to hell if you look at someone with lust? That's what the plain reading says. Are you slaughtering calves for Yahweh? Are you not eating pork? Are you not reinventing Jesus into someone you're comfortable with?

No, we kind of got off topic, but I think where we were going is, did he judge sin in people and the answer to that is yes. That just means you are guilty of violating the law and offending God. His purpose on earth was to present a solution to that.

HonestChieffan
03-03-2008, 07:37 PM
Obama as a Christian supports Gay marriage and abortion. Some fine Church that is. He is dangerous.

HolmeZz
03-03-2008, 08:25 PM
Obama as a Christian supports Gay marriage and abortion. Some fine Church that is. He is dangerous.

He's not in favor of gay marriage, but I wouldn't confuse you with someone knowledgeable about his positions.

As far as being a 'Christian', you can pretty much get your faith to reflect whatever belief you'd like.

alnorth
03-03-2008, 10:45 PM
Of all the easy, perfectly good arguements to use against voting for Obama, it boggles my mind why people continue to go here. This has got to be one of the most irrelevant and retarded criticisms of Obama's candidacy.

patteeu
03-04-2008, 07:05 AM
Of all the easy, perfectly good arguements to use against voting for Obama, it boggles my mind why people continue to go here. This has got to be one of the most irrelevant and retarded criticisms of Obama's candidacy.

Which argument/criticism are you criticizing here?

patteeu
03-04-2008, 07:13 AM
Obama's Christ seems peculiarly particular. Apparently, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus told Obama to support gay unions but oppose gay marriage. I don't know what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, but this sounds like a pretty important revelation that has so far gone unnoticed by my church's Pope as well as a number of other people trained in miracles (as Mike Huckabee would say).

Obama Cites Sermon on the Mount in Defense of Pro-Gay Stance (http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=71081)
by Kilian Melloy
EDGE Contributor
Monday Mar 3, 2008


Speaking to a crowd in Ohio, Sen. Barack Obama said yesterday that the issue of LGBT equality is one that is included in Jesusí Sermon on the Mount.

Obama was talking to a crowd on a Sunday, with the appearance taking a "town hall" approach. In the course of the discussion, Cybercast News Service reported in a post today, Obama said of domestic arrangements between couples of the same gender, "I will tell you that I donít believe in gay marriage, but I do think that people who are gay and lesbian should be treated with dignity and respect and that the state should not discriminate against them."

Continued Obama, "So, I believe in civil unions that allow a same-sex couple to visit each other in a hospital or transfer property to each other."

Obama, who has consistently said that he opposes marriage equality, went on to say, "I donít think it should be called marriage, but I think that it is a legal right that they should have that is recognized by the state."

Continued the Ill. senator and hopeful for the Democratic nomination to this yearís presidential race, "If people find that controversial, then I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount, which I think is, in my mind, for my faith, more central than an obscure passage in Romans."

Obama was responding to a question posed to him by a Protestant minister, Leon Forte, who said, "Your campaign sets a quandary for most evangelical Christians because I believe that they believe in the social agenda that you have, but they have a problem in what the conservatives have laid out as the moral litmus tests as to who is worthy and who is not."

Added Forte, "So, I will ask you to speak to those two questions."

Obama took the questionís reference to "litmus tests" to mean GLBT equality and abortion, and his response not only addressed same-sex marriage but also the question of whether his support for womenís right to choose stood in contradiction to his Christian faith.

The CNS article noted that in his Epistle to the Romans, St. Paul wrote that sexual acts between men were sinful.

The reference to the Sermon on the Mount was less clear, however, since Obama may have been thinking of Jesusí instruction that his followers should "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," the CNS article said.

Another possibility that the CNS article offered was that Obama was citing Jesusí warning not to judge others because to do so invites judgment on oneself.

CNS also noted that the Sermon on the Mount, which appears in the Gospel According to Matthew in the New Testament, contains a number of crucial passages, such as the Beatitudes ("Blessed are...") and The Lordís Prayer (also known as the "Our Father" for its opening words, "Our Father, Who art in Heaven...")

CNS noted that on Feb. 28, Obama posted an "open letter concerning LGBT equality in America" on his Web site, in which Obama promised, "As your President, I will use the bully pulpit to urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws."

In his "open letter," Obama reiterated his stance against marriage equality, writing, "I personally believe that civil unions represent the best way to secure that equal treatment."

Continued Obama, "But I also believe that the federal government should not stand in the way of states that want to decide on their own how best to pursue equality for gay and lesbian couples--whether that means a domestic partnership, a civil union, or a civil marriage."

In terms of his support for the right of women to terminate their pregnancies, Obama said, "I think [abortion] is always tragic, and we should prevent it as much as possible," but, he went on, "I think that the bottom line is that in the end, I think women, in consultation with their pastors, and their doctors, and their family, are in a better position to make these decisions than some bureaucrat in Washington."

Continued the senator, "...I respect people who may disagree, but I certainly donít think it makes me less Christian."

Addressing the crowd who had assembled at Nelsonville, OHís Hocking College, Obama declared that his political views were not in contradiction to his religious beliefs, saying, "I am a Christian. I am a devout Christian. I have been a member of the same church for 20 years, pray to Jesus every night, and try to go to church as much as I can when they are not working me [on the campaign trail]."

Continued Obama, "[My faith] is not something that I try to push on other people. But it is something that helps to guide my life and my values."

At Politico.com, Ben Smith, in a Beb 28 blog posting
titled "Selling gay rights," wrote about a speech that Obama gave in Beaumont, Tex., to a crowd that, Smith reported, was about 75 percent black.

During the course of the speech, Obama responded to a question about LGBT equality by noting characteristics that should not serve as reasons for prejudice and unequal treatment before the law.

Wrote Smith, "When he came to saying that gays and lesbians deserve equality, though, the crowd fell silent."

At that point, Obama said, "Now Iím a Christian, and I praise Jesus every Sunday," Smith reported, saying that those words produced "a sudden wave of noisy applause and cheers."

Smith wrote that Obama went on to say, "I hear people saying things that I donít think are very Christian with respect to people who are gay and lesbian."

At this point, Smith wrote, the crowd continued to cheer, rather than going quiet.

Smith wrote of Obama, "...his ability to sell gay rights in the black church is unique and appealing."

alnorth
03-04-2008, 07:51 AM
Which argument/criticism are you criticizing here?

Any speculation having to do with Obama's supposed secret Muslim religion and/or suspected lack of religion.

patteeu
03-04-2008, 08:16 AM
Any speculation having to do with Obama's supposed secret Muslim religion and/or suspected lack of religion.

I don't think there's any reason to think he's muslim. I think there's plenty of reason to doubt his Christianity. But speculation is not criticism.

If he were muslim or if he were a fake Christian, would it be something worthy of criticism? I think it would be, given his attempt to pass himself off as a devout Christian. Are we at that point? No, we aren't.

tiptap
03-04-2008, 09:08 AM
So its time to bring up whether McCain is a Christian. I mean he changes his affiliation at a political whim. What kind of conviction does that represent? It is clear, like Bush, the moral teachings are convenient. I suspect that McCain is the Manchurian Candidate. The mole from Vietnam communists. Just speculating and expectorating.

memyselfI
03-04-2008, 12:45 PM
Obama's Christ seems peculiarly particular. Apparently, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus told Obama to support gay unions but oppose gay marriage. I don't know what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, but this sounds like a pretty important revelation that has so far gone unnoticed by my church's Pope as well as a number of other people trained in miracles (as Mike Huckabee would say).

Well herein lies the issue of why his Church's liberal leanings should be known and could be important to some people. If I supported him then something like this quote would not bother me because I'd agree with it. However, I can't see some of the Indies and CONS who are supporting him agreeing that his faith should determine what Jesus meant by the Sermon on the Mount and it should not decide policy either. But he's using his faith and Jesus to justify and support his policy regarding homosexuals. Again, I agree with the policy but using Jesus to try to justify it is just STOOOOOOOOOOOPID.

With quotes like this he'll do himself in sooner than any internet rumors will. :doh!:

"I don't think it should be called marriage, but I think that it is a legal right that they should have that is recognized by the state. If people find that controversial, then I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount, which I think is, in my mind, for my faith, more central than an obscure passage in Romans. That's my view. But we can have a respectful disagreement on that."

patteeu
03-04-2008, 03:17 PM
So its time to bring up whether McCain is a Christian. I mean he changes his affiliation at a political whim. What kind of conviction does that represent? It is clear, like Bush, the moral teachings are convenient. I suspect that McCain is the Manchurian Candidate. The mole from Vietnam communists. Just speculating and expectorating.

OK. Good luck.

Chief Faithful
03-04-2008, 03:42 PM
I'll bet the DNC would love to see a continued focus on Obama's faith because it is a non-issue and provides a smoke screen preventing view of the real candidate.

patteeu
03-04-2008, 03:45 PM
I'll bet the DNC would love to see a continued focus on Obama's faith because it is a non-issue and provides a smoke screen preventing view of the real candidate.

In the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, it also gives him continued opportunities to speak about his Christianity too, which can only help him, IMO.