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View Full Version : MicJones, I apoligize, racial discrimination in housing is alive and well.


BigRedChief
03-04-2008, 05:01 AM
I thought with all the laws on the books and threates of lawsuits that there was no way that there was racial discrimination in todays society except for the occasional redneck. Looking for an apartment in St. Louis has opened my eyes. It does still exsist.

People would help me instead of others(black and hispanic people) who were there first. I was dressed in a T-shirt, jeans and sneakers. My wife and son dressed the same. We quickly noticed that we were being treated differently.

I would call an apartment complex to see if they would take a short term lease renter. They would tell us no way. That got old real quick. So we (clean cut middle aged white guy, his wife and the white teenager with freckles)just walked into the office and guess what all of a sudden they did have short term leases.

I didn't have to completely fill out paperwork when other (usually black and or hispanic renters) have to fill out the paperwork. There was exceptions made all day for me concerning paperwork and proof of income, history and who I really was.

I was told by the staff in a very real and sincere way that they would personally see to it that this issue or that was taken care of whereas I overheard conversations that other potential renters would have to wait until the issue could be resolved.

They went out of their way to lead me in a direction of another place if their place wasn't going to work out but I saw them matter of factly tell others that sorry thats all they could do.

All of these apartments were in racially mixed neighboorhoods. All the apartment comples had racially diverse renters. Most were white managers but the black managers also did the same thing.

We were totally surprised at the way we were treated as compared to others. Even though I was the beneficiary of this special treatment I was saddned as the day went along because of that special treatment.

Even though during this election year we have millions of us middle aged, mid america white guys and gals voting for a black candidate to be our leader this year we still have some work to do towards "All men are created equal".

patteeu
03-04-2008, 06:59 AM
That wasn't racial discrimination. I passed the word around town that you'd be coming around and told them to treat you nice.

banyon
03-04-2008, 07:43 AM
Maybe it had more to do with being clean-cut and married? Just a thought.

I've seen this on both sides. I've also represented property owners against frivolous discrimination suits as well.

jAZ
03-04-2008, 08:05 AM
"T-shirt, jeans and sneakers"... I took this to mean you were underdressing some of the others shopping around you?

Cochise
03-04-2008, 08:05 AM
I am thinking that if I were renting an apartment out, the well to do middle-aged guy with his family who looks clean cut and is high salary with good credit would be the person I would want to choose first. I don't think there is anything wrong with that by itself.

They can't discriminate against a protected class, but it's still their prerogative who they rent to beyond that. There may be a reasonable suspicion but I think that would be quite difficult to prove.

Brock
03-04-2008, 08:07 AM
More tedious white guilt. Get over it.

BigRedChief
03-04-2008, 08:12 AM
Maybe it had more to do with being clean-cut and married? Just a thought.

I've seen this on both sides. I've also represented property owners against frivolous discrimination suits as well.
Oh, I know. There is no way to prove in a court of law that there was discrimination taking place. Why wouldn't you take the middle aged guy with good credit and job over the 22 year old renter with spotty credit history working at Wal-Mart? I'm sure they would say the same thing in court and it would also probably be true.

BigRedChief
03-04-2008, 08:13 AM
"T-shirt, jeans and sneakers"... I took this to mean you were underdressing some of the others shopping around you?
Just meant that I wasn't doing this in my business casual dress. At first glance unless they saw the mustang how would they know I have any money?

Iowanian
03-04-2008, 08:17 AM
You're working pretty hard to feel guilty about your skin pigment. This isn't the first time you've got out of your way to spike yourself to the tree of woa.


If you've ever worked in rental properties, a clean cut person isn't too difficult to pick out of the crowd of drooling morons without steady employment who want to live like a hog in your building, with intermittent payment of rent.

You think it was because you're a honkey, I'll wager it had to do with carrying yourself like a functional human being, and the "employment" line on the application.

Valiant
03-04-2008, 08:21 AM
I thought with all the laws on the books and threates of lawsuits that there was no way that there was racial discrimination in todays society except for the occasional redneck. Looking for an apartment in St. Louis has opened my eyes. It does still exsist.

People would help me instead of others(black and hispanic people) who were there first. I was dressed in a T-shirt, jeans and sneakers. My wife and son dressed the same. We quickly noticed that we were being treated differently.

I would call an apartment complex to see if they would take a short term lease renter. They would tell us no way. That got old real quick. So we (clean cut middle aged white guy, his wife and the white teenager with freckles)just walked into the office and guess what all of a sudden they did have short term leases.

I didn't have to completely fill out paperwork when other (usually black and or hispanic renters) have to fill out the paperwork. There was exceptions made all day for me concerning paperwork and proof of income, history and who I really was.

I was told by the staff in a very real and sincere way that they would personally see to it that this issue or that was taken care of whereas I overheard conversations that other potential renters would have to wait until the issue could be resolved.

They went out of their way to lead me in a direction of another place if their place wasn't going to work out but I saw them matter of factly tell others that sorry thats all they could do.

All of these apartments were in racially mixed neighboorhoods. All the apartment comples had racially diverse renters. Most were white managers but the black managers also did the same thing.

We were totally surprised at the way we were treated as compared to others. Even though I was the beneficiary of this special treatment I was saddned as the day went along because of that special treatment.

Even though during this election year we have millions of us middle aged, mid america white guys and gals voting for a black candidate to be our leader this year we still have some work to do towards "All men are created equal".

?? Didn't you say you are making bank 60k+ a year??

Black managers were even preferring you over others.. Seems to me you are one of the rare people that apartments want..

And IF I owned an apartment I would be leary of Mexicans also.. With new laws passing I would not want to the pay the fine for illegals living there and then the fact that most cram extra people in there not on the lease..

Iowanian
03-04-2008, 08:24 AM
Do a test.

Dig out your joe dirt mullet, your billy bob teef and walk in with a Marlboro Tshirt and forget everything you learned about English after 3rd grade....tell them you work in fast food.

Get back to me with the results.

Yesterday, you said you were getting a $50k RAISE. Most apt renters make about $9/hr

jAZ
03-04-2008, 08:28 AM
At first glance... how would they know I have any money?
I think people on this thread are missing this point...
...unless they saw the mustang...
And in the rental business, even a nice car is no accurate indicator of actual money.

Micjones
03-04-2008, 08:32 AM
*Sigh*

I'm pleased to know that minority folk aren't also well paid, couth, and clean cut.
Ignorance is bliss.

BigRedChief
03-04-2008, 08:33 AM
You're working pretty hard to feel guilty about your skin pigment. This isn't the first time you've got out of your way to spike yourself to the tree of woa.ROFL I don't care who you are that there is fuuny.


If you've ever worked in rental properties, a clean cut person isn't too difficult to pick out of the crowd of drooling morons without steady employment who want to live like a hog in your building, with intermittent payment of rent.
I've not even rented an apartment in 23 years.

I'll wager it had to do with carrying yourself like a functional human being, and the "employment" line on the application.
I know thats probably the reason.

BigRedChief
03-04-2008, 08:37 AM
*Sigh*

I'm pleased to know that minority folk aren't also well paid, couth, and clean cut.
Ignorance is bliss.
The fact that the black managers exibited the same behaviour says it wasn't really a skin color issue but financial.
I think it had to do with my established credit history, good job and being "clean cut" than skin color. But I could see how some would cry discrimination especially after they see me get told one thing and they are told something else.

Duck Dog
03-04-2008, 08:42 AM
Wow, landlords want clean cut families as renters? Where's the humanity?

BigRedChief
03-04-2008, 08:44 AM
?? Didn't you say you are making bank 60k+ a year??

Black managers were even preferring you over others.. Seems to me you are one of the rare people that apartments want..
Yes, I'm a good renter candidate. Good job, no pets, no wild parties won't even be there on the weekends.

?? Didn't you say you are making bank 60k+ a year??Over $100K now but remember it could end before July. Taking a risk/gamble.

Iowanian
03-04-2008, 09:08 AM
*Sigh*

I'm pleased to know that minority folk aren't also well paid, couth, and clean cut.
Ignorance is bliss.


No one suggested as much.

Iowanian
03-04-2008, 09:12 AM
ROFL I don't care who you are that there is fuuny.


I've not even rented an apartment in 23 years.


I know thats probably the reason.

"Sir, where are you living now and where have you been living?
"I own a home in Kansas City and am working a 6 month contract down here"
"oh, sign here"



If you want to do a similar test, put an ad for a used car in the paper..or better yet, home for sale by owner.

riiiing
"hello"
"uh, hewwo, I'm calling about the..."
"yes, I advertised that Item, it is a.........."
"would you take payments ow went to own?"

They're the ones who ask "how much a month" before they ask how many bedrooms, or if it is in good mechanical condition.


I've met you brc, my family has managed rental properties for years, however we're usually sorting out white trash that won't pay vs people that will. Unless you had feces rubbed on your face, I can see how they made a quick decision that your family were viable renters.

It usually takes about 5 seconds on the phone to tell the difference between someone who will pay and take care of the place and those that won't. I'm guessing 2.5 seconds in person.

chagrin
03-04-2008, 09:17 AM
Oh, I know. There is no way to prove in a court of law that there was discrimination taking place.

You can't prove it took place with this story of your either; racial discrimination takes place in societies across the world, folks should try to realize and also admit that the USA is not Eden, bad things go on, every minute. And also, it's not just white people getting preferential treatment; you should be ashamed to even imply that.

Better yet, maybe move to a place like, oh California or Florida, Dearborn Heights, Michigan or any one of many cities in places in Texas.

chagrin
03-04-2008, 09:18 AM
I think people on this thread are missing this point...



Well please, by all means, tell us all the point of the thread since nobody gets it :rolleyes:

Micjones
03-04-2008, 11:21 AM
The fact that the black managers exibited the same behaviour says it wasn't really a skin color issue but financial.
I think it had to do with my established credit history, good job and being "clean cut" than skin color. But I could see how some would cry discrimination especially after they see me get told one thing and they are told something else.

Fair enough. I have no problem with you being chosen because you were a qualified applicant.

I'm just not sure what point you were trying to make.

This doesn't speak to restrictive covenants and other such discrimination practices at all.

Micjones
03-04-2008, 11:21 AM
No one suggested as much.

The inference was certainly there...
But ultimately it's no big deal.

Certainly some Black folk are underqualified for housing.

Iowanian
03-04-2008, 12:15 PM
You're reading too much into the statements IMO.

BRC, is a clean cut, employed person who speaks well. In person, a property
manager would have to spend about 5 seconds of conversation to figure him
to be a decent candidate.

We never had that many opportunities to rent to minorities, due to the cultural distribution in our area, however I can assure you that a significant number of caucasians
are not clean cut, employed, or good rental candidates.

I've you've clean up the damage and mess left by any shitbrick renter, you too would become a little calloused towards renters.

I think landlords are assholes for a good reason(yes, mine have been) and its because they usually have to be, because its the only language the average renter understands.

A landlord who is too nice, and doesn't give everyone the "once-over" and then stay right on top of them for rent collection, WILL be taken advantage of time and time again.

banyon
03-04-2008, 12:25 PM
Oh, I know. There is no way to prove in a court of law that there was discrimination taking place. Why wouldn't you take the middle aged guy with good credit and job over the 22 year old renter with spotty credit history working at Wal-Mart? I'm sure they would say the same thing in court and it would also probably be true.

If you really want to, there's nothing stopping you from filing a HUD complaint against the landlord. They will investigate EVERY complaint, no matter how trivial. If you feel it is going on and bothers you, here's the number:

1 (800) 669-9777 HUD COMPLAINT LINE

Legitimate discrimination is what those people are paid our tax dollars to investigate.

BigRedChief
03-04-2008, 04:00 PM
You're reading too much into the statements IMO.

BRC, is a clean cut, employed person who speaks well. In person, a property
manager would have to spend about 5 seconds of conversation to figure him
to be a decent candidate.

We never had that many opportunities to rent to minorities, due to the cultural distribution in our area, however I can assure you that a significant number of caucasians
are not clean cut, employed, or good rental candidates.

I've you've clean up the damage and mess left by any shitbrick renter, you too would become a little calloused towards renters.

I think landlords are assholes for a good reason(yes, mine have been) and its because they usually have to be, because its the only language the average renter understands.

A landlord who is too nice, and doesn't give everyone the "once-over" and then stay right on top of them for rent collection, WILL be taken advantage of time and time again.
Man, sounds like you guys have to put up with a bunch of chit. Is it worth it?

Cochise
03-04-2008, 04:09 PM
Man, sounds like you guys have to put up with a bunch of chit. Is it worth it?

I knew people in college who left the places they rented in the most f-ed up states of disarray you'd ever see. They didn't care, 'already going to lose the deposit anyway' was all it meant to them. Nevermind that the guy nice enough to rent to you at a price you could afford is going to have to pay to fix it all when he can't collect from your unemployed dumbarse

Iowanian
03-04-2008, 04:55 PM
Man, sounds like you guys have to put up with a bunch of chit. Is it worth it?


I'll give you a peek at the things that make landlords turn asshole.

A house is rented, the tenant asks if you'll take first month's rent and 1/2 of the deposit now and half later. You're feeling kind so you allow it.

The rent comes in the 2nd month on the 8-9th of the month, the 3rd month, the 15th after you call twice....the 4th month, not too much and you've noticed garbage building on the porch and garage....eventually you get the money.

They stop paying, you begin the eviction process and they now owe you 2-3months rent...during the process, you jump through the hoops, and the last hearing before the 3 day eviction, they show up with a tax payer funded attorney who finds a technicality on the paper work that buys them 60 more days....rent free. In the mean time, the utilities are turned off, you can't make contact, you can't ask for more money, and they're still "using" the property.

Finally, you go in and the house is in shambles...mice are everywhere, the fridge is full of rotten food, the sink full of rotten food and dishes. They've removed very few of their belongings.....you begin hauling their shit out, and in the bedrooms find piles and piles of filthy terrible towels(cum soaked kleenex) and pot smoking devices made of crushed cans.

After you and several of your people spend a day hauling all of their shit out, after they've failed to pay 6 months rent, ruined $1500 carpet et al......they try to file suit against you for "stealing their very very valuable property".

oh....and about then is when the city/water utility tries to come back on the property owner for water-sewer bills, including the disconnect charge, because the scumbags didn't pay that either.

Thats just one example.

Iowanian
03-04-2008, 05:01 PM
I know another landlord who had a small house he rented to a struggling family.

After a few months of no money and eventual, expensive an unproductive eviction process....found that the renters had the water shut off about 2 months into their stay...and had shit the toilet full...heaped higher than the toilet lid, then began to shit the tub full....and when that was heaped too high, began to shit in the corner, not unlike a hog might do.

That landlord had to pay people to scoop human feces out of a room with a shovel, haul it with buckets, tear out all of the interior drywall and carpet and remodel the house...because they couldn't get the stink out.

These are some examples.

I also know there are some gaping anus' for landlords who pull shady shit, particularly with college students, young people and unknowing young ladies....I've seen the other side too.

There are reasons they suggest they have no vacancy on the phone, and I'd wager 95% of the time, that would be the correct assumption.


As for "worth it"....not really. My family stopped managing properties for that person because it was more of a pain in the ass than its worth.

I do have family members who manage several properties between them. It can be a good deal, if you're willing to work several years with no profit for long term gain.....and if you're an asshole immediately when someone won't pay on time.

Logical
03-04-2008, 05:17 PM
I know another landlord who had a small house he rented to a struggling family.

After a few months of no money and eventual, expensive an unproductive eviction process....found that the renters had the water shut off about 2 months into their stay...and had shit the toilet full...heaped higher than the toilet lid, then began to shit the tub full....and when that was heaped too high, began to shit in the corner, not unlike a hog might do.

That landlord had to pay people to scoop human feces out of a room with a shovel, haul it with buckets, tear out all of the interior drywall and carpet and remodel the house...because they couldn't get the stink out.

These are some examples.

I also know there are some gaping anus' for landlords who pull shady shit, particularly with college students, young people and unknowing young ladies....I've seen the other side too.

There are reasons they suggest they have no vacancy on the phone, and I'd wager 95% of the time, that would be the correct assumption.


As for "worth it"....not really. My family stopped managing properties for that person because it was more of a pain in the ass than its worth.

I do have family members who manage several properties between them. It can be a good deal, if you're willing to work several years with no profit for long term gain.....and if you're an asshole immediately when someone won't pay on time.


That is sad, I hope you are not implying that it could not have happened with a poor redneck?

Logical
03-04-2008, 05:27 PM
Myabe I did not read this paragraph right, my English Comprhension skills may have slipped.

I didn't have to completely fill out paperwork when other (usually black and or hispanic renters) have to fill out the paperwork. There was exceptions made all day for me concerning paperwork and proof of income, history and who I really was..

I probably should not try to rent an apartment, huh?

Iowanian
03-04-2008, 05:35 PM
It WAS a poor, caucasian, white, redneck-american Ill...which is kind of the gist of my entire point.


Interesting that given the description, that gave no hint of culture that YOU assumed I wasn't.

Logical
03-04-2008, 05:42 PM
It WAS a poor, caucasian, white, redneck-american Ill...which is kind of the gist of my entire point.


Interesting that given the description, that gave no hint of culture that YOU assumed I wasn't.

Gee the thread is about racism being alive and you post a post like that, yep color me guilty of assuming what you were trying to point out, that you actually did not.

patteeu
03-04-2008, 05:47 PM
Gee the thread is about racism being alive and you post a post like that, yep color me guilty of assuming what you were trying to point out, that you actually did not.

The thread isn't really about racism, as it turns out (although if you only read the title or the OP I can see why you'd assume it was).

Logical
03-04-2008, 05:54 PM
The thread isn't really about racism, as it turns out (although if you only read the title or the OP I can see why you'd assume it was).


OK now you have me confused, what is the thread about?

patteeu
03-04-2008, 06:12 PM
OK now you have me confused, what is the thread about?

After just a few threads pointing out that factors other than race could easily have led to the response BRC experienced as he shopped around for an apartment, BRC himself (in post #15) speculated that other factors were probably dominant. After that, it turned into an examination of the experiences of landlords that lead them to make some of the decisions they make. That's where you popped in.

Logical
03-04-2008, 08:41 PM
After just a few threads pointing out that factors other than race could easily have led to the response BRC experienced as he shopped around for an apartment, BRC himself (in post #15) speculated that other factors were probably dominant. After that, it turned into an examination of the experiences of landlords that lead them to make some of the decisions they make. That's where you popped in.Thanks for the info, appears I should have read the whole thread.