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RedDread
03-07-2008, 01:29 PM
The Price of Oil (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/03/07/the-daily-show-the-price-of-oil/)

Yeehaw!

Amnorix
03-07-2008, 02:05 PM
With a weakening US dollar and no end in sight to demand for oil, as well as OPEC's unwilligness (and to some degree inability) to increase oil production, with the Venezuela/Russian/Iraq instability/strong-arm tactics as the cherry on top, oil isn't likely to stabilize at $100/bb either.

The only good (?) news is that the increasing price of gas has apparently finally had some effect in the United STates, where gas usage is down for the first time in approximately forever. That has several positive consequences, not least is the possibility that it will convince OPEC that they will harm their own long-term markets unless they act to reduce oil prices.

stevieray
03-07-2008, 02:07 PM
we don't have anyone to blame but ourselves...

HonestChieffan
03-07-2008, 02:07 PM
Maybe Americans will wake up to "use less"

I have no faith in that but its a nice idea.

Brock
03-07-2008, 02:09 PM
3 days per week - MOTORCYCLES ONLY.

Amnorix
03-07-2008, 02:11 PM
we don't have anyone to blame but ourselves...



??? The price of a barrel of oil is decided by far more than American consumption.

Taco John
03-07-2008, 02:14 PM
??? The price of a barrel of oil is decided by far more than American consumption.


It's decided in a large part by the value of the American dollar. The lower the dollar goes, the higher they increase the price in order to compensate for their losses in a global market.

The problem with the price of oil isn't that oil is getting expensive. It's that the dollar is losing its value.

pikesome
03-07-2008, 02:21 PM
That has several positive consequences, not least is the possibility that it will convince OPEC that they will harm their own long-term markets unless they act to reduce oil prices.

I'm sure oil companies like people using oil but I've always wondered what the response from the ME countries would be if a non-oil energy system caught on. Big Oil could always find a way to replace lost revenue (maybe) but the Persian Gulf countries have crap besides oil. They are the worst kind of screwed if people move in large number to something else.

Not that I think it's too likely, there's a lot of steps between here and the bottom falling out of oil production.

Amnorix
03-07-2008, 02:47 PM
It's decided in a large part by the value of the American dollar. The lower the dollar goes, the higher they increase the price in order to compensate for their losses in a global market.

In part. Not in "large" part.

The problem with the price of oil isn't that oil is getting expensive. It's that the dollar is losing its value.

It's both, and more the rise in oil than the fall of the dollar. Don't get carried away.

The punishing rise in oil prices over the past 14 months has differed from earlier oil price shocks because there has been no single headline disruption in oil markets -- no embargo, no new outbreak of war in an oil-rich nation. Instead, the price of oil has climbed because of a mixture of political tension over Iran (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Iran?tid=informline), the slide in the dollar's value, OPEC (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/OPEC?tid=informline)'s reluctance to boost production to drive down prices, and the rising tide of investments in commodities as fund managers diversify portfolios, flee sagging stocks and bonds, and seek a hedge against inflation.

One key issue: the value of the dollar. Crude oil is priced in dollars. So when the dollar is falling in value against other currencies, the price of crude oil usually rises. Why? Because European and Japanese importers can still buy oil for the same price in their own currencies even if the dollar price rises. Oil-exporting countries also like higher dollar-denominated oil prices when the dollar goes down so that their revenues cover the same amount of goods purchased in countries other than the United States.

This chart shows that the increase in oil prices is substantially lower in other currencies. But even in euros, Canadian dollars and Japanese yen, the increase in crude oil prices over the past year has been steep.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/07/AR2008030700090.html

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/03/07/GR2008030700263.gif

Amnorix
03-07-2008, 02:51 PM
I'm sure oil companies like people using oil but I've always wondered what the response from the ME countries would be if a non-oil energy system caught on. Big Oil could always find a way to replace lost revenue (maybe) but the Persian Gulf countries have crap besides oil. They are the worst kind of screwed if people move in large number to something else.

Not that I think it's too likely, there's a lot of steps between here and the bottom falling out of oil production.


Big oil would die along with OPEC, and would be replaced by companies better able to take advantage of whatever teh new technology is.

Think of Ma Bell/AT&T. When deregulation went into effect, smaller companies able to more nimbly adapt to new technologies and methodologies grew fast, dominated, and took over, until AT&T was a pathetic shell of its former self. Thsi despite AT&T's massive advantages in technology, know-how, name-brand recongition, a mountain of cash, and dedicated customers.

This is capitalism at its best.

BTW, I heartily support nuclear power making a big comeback. Unfortunately, regulations and liability concerns make it economically impossible. Hopefully, some politicians with guts will do what is needed to bring it back. Reliance on foreign oil is stupid on many, many levels. Not that nuclear power solves all problems, obviously -- hard to run a car on it. :D

pikesome
03-07-2008, 02:55 PM
Big oil would die along with OPEC, and would be replaced by companies better able to take advantage of whatever teh new technology is.

Think of Ma Bell/AT&T. When deregulation went into effect, smaller companies able to more nimbly adapt to new technologies and methodologies grew fast, dominated, and took over, until AT&T was a pathetic shell of its former self. Thsi despite AT&T's massive advantages in technology, know-how, name-brand recongition, a mountain of cash, and dedicated customers.

This is capitalism at its best.

BTW, I heartily support nuclear power making a big comeback. Unfortunately, regulations and liability concerns make it economically impossible. Hopefully, some politicians with guts will do what is needed to bring it back. Reliance on foreign oil is stupid on many, many levels. Not that nuclear power solves all problems, obviously -- hard to run a car on it. :D

Yes. :D

pikesome
03-07-2008, 02:57 PM
The secret is finding out how to replace gas for cross-country shipping IMHO. That's going to be where the best/most returns are going to be. I just don't know how you do it.

a1na2
03-07-2008, 03:10 PM
Maybe Americans will wake up to "use less"

I have no faith in that but its a nice idea.

WHAT and give up driving the Hummers and other exceptionally large vehicles?

If we were truely worried about it as a country we would not be buying the vehicles that get less than 30 MPG. The government doesn't care and surely Bush doesn't care, he is in the oil business and is just watching the dollar signs roll up.

You can't legislate personal responsibility.

pikesome
03-07-2008, 03:17 PM
WHAT and give up driving the Hummers and other exceptionally large vehicles?

If we were truely worried about it as a country we would not be buying the vehicles that get less than 30 MPG. The government doesn't care and surely Bush doesn't care, he is in the oil business and is just watching the dollar signs roll up.

You can't legislate personal responsibility.

I got rid of a 16mpg SUV and replaced it with a 24.5mpg sedan. And it's a 2.0 turbo that's fun to drive.

I've missed the AWD and big tires this winter though.

Amnorix
03-07-2008, 03:22 PM
WHAT and give up driving the Hummers and other exceptionally large vehicles?

If we were truely worried about it as a country we would not be buying the vehicles that get less than 30 MPG. The government doesn't care and surely Bush doesn't care, he is in the oil business and is just watching the dollar signs roll up.

You can't legislate personal responsibility.

No, but you can legislate REAL mileage requirements, instead of these bogus things we have now, with tons of loopholes and false data used.

You can also encourage the market to move in the right direction. Tax breaks for alternative fuels, etc.

And consumer usage is changing latelyd ue to higher gas prices.

a1na2
03-07-2008, 03:30 PM
No, but you can legislate REAL mileage requirements, instead of these bogus things we have now, with tons of loopholes and false data used.

You can also encourage the market to move in the right direction. Tax breaks for alternative fuels, etc.

And consumer usage is changing latelyd ue to higher gas prices.

NO, I can't legislate that and it doesn't seem like the gov is interested in doing that either. There are a few of those that could start the legislation that are tied into some of the big oil companies, not to mention the lobbyists that have their part in the game.

From what I remember there has been a move to correct the mileage estimates on vehicles, but I don't think that has been legislated, it's more a good ole boy thing. Doesn't reall ymean much.

Are you a responsible user of fossile fuels?

bkkcoh
03-07-2008, 04:03 PM
But is there a true option that is affordable for the people who have families of 4 or 5 that get around 30mph? I can't think of anything that is, but haven't looked recently.

HonestChieffan
03-07-2008, 04:06 PM
easy fix is use less. want to cut cost of fuel you buy? Dont use so much.

BucEyedPea
03-07-2008, 04:19 PM
Major Investments in Alternative Energy by Big Oil (http://www.energy-base.org/no_cache/english/home/newsdetail/article/162/92/neste/4.html')

Only gonna put one up as it's long but it lists out the major oil name's investments and work in the area. If they wanna stay in business they're gonna have to switch.

Royal Dutch Shell Plc

A spokeswoman for Shell said it had invested $1 billion in renewables, excluding biodiesel, and hydrogen activities in the past five years.

The Hague-based company has the largest wind power business in the sector, and the 17th largest in the world, according to Emerging Energy Research, and plans to expand substantially. [I've seen this on videos off the coast of the Netherlands]

Shell said it has 350 MW of installed capacity with farms operating or planned in the U.S., the Netherlands and the UK.

The second-largest western oil company by market value sold its old solar business in 2006 and now has another, based on a different technology, which plans to start manufacturing a new generation of solar panels in 2008.

Shell has invested over $150 million in hydrogen energy research, development, and commercial applications since 1999.

Additionally, Shell has extensive investments in green transport fuels, aimed at developing “second-generation” biofuels – products produced from waste biomass, rather than food crops such as corn and rape seed.

In 2002, Shell bought a stake in Iogen, a Canadian company which plans to produce ethanol from waste biomass, for $29 million.

In 2005, Shell bought a minority stake in CHOREN Industries GmbH, which plans to produce biodiesel from biomass.

Shell is funding research into geothermal energy – the generation of electricity by injecting water into hot rocks deep under the ground to create steam that drives turbines.

Total since 1999: Around $1.25 billion

2006 Capital investment: $23.1 billion

stevieray
03-07-2008, 04:21 PM
??? The price of a barrel of oil is decided by far more than American consumption.

That's exactly my point, we are forced to buy oil from the Saudis because of the Sierra Club, etc ( I wonder who they have in Congress doing their dirty work) have prevented us from drilling on our own soil.

I'll believe people REALLY give a damn when they aren't doing 85 in a 65 mph zone, and stop putting oversized tires and wheels on their cars, or when the media stops propping up people like Chavez and Vasquez.

BucEyedPea
03-07-2008, 04:22 PM
easy fix is use less. want to cut cost of fuel you buy? Dont use so much.
It's a start but short term. But it will nudge big oil or they'll lose their market altogether. If they're smart they'll have to switch into more renewable less expensive technology.

penchief
03-07-2008, 06:21 PM
we don't have anyone to blame but ourselves...

Exactly.

Even though we secretly thought to ourselves that Oil Men would know all the right "free market" levers to pull in order to make our gas cheaper, we should have known that they would be looking out for their own interests, as usual.

Duh....stupid us. Basically, the price of oil has trippled since Cheneyburton took office. Take the blinders off, people.

tiptap
03-07-2008, 08:03 PM
That's exactly my point, we are forced to buy oil from the Saudis because of the Sierra Club, etc ( I wonder who they have in Congress doing their dirty work) have prevented us from drilling on our own soil.

I'll believe people REALLY give a damn when they aren't doing 85 in a 65 mph zone, and stop putting oversized tires and wheels on their cars, or when the media stops propping up people like Chavez and Vasquez.

Your so full of crap on this. The peak output of oil under US control has come and gone. It happened back in 1970. That has nothing to do with anything of human control. It is just that there is a finite amount of unreneweable oil. Even Pudhoe coming on line failed to raise production. It did stop the falling production for several years.

Amnorix
03-08-2008, 12:14 AM
That's exactly my point, we are forced to buy oil from the Saudis because of the Sierra Club, etc ( I wonder who they have in Congress doing their dirty work) have prevented us from drilling on our own soil.


I've never seen ANYTHING that suggested that even if we opened up ANWR and whatever else, we wouldn't be foreign oil dependent to a very large degree. If you have anything that says otherwise, I'd like to see it.

Amnorix
03-08-2008, 12:15 AM
Your so full of crap on this. The peak output of oil under US control has come and gone. It happened back in 1970. That has nothing to do with anything of human control. It is just that there is a finite about of unreneweable oil. Even Pudhoe coming on line failed to raise production. It did stop the falling production for several years.


This is my understanding as well.

beavis
03-08-2008, 04:32 AM
I've never seen ANYTHING that suggested that even if we opened up ANWR and whatever else, we wouldn't be foreign oil dependent to a very large degree. If you have anything that says otherwise, I'd like to see it.

My numbers maybe a little off, but I believe we use about 20 million barrells a day, producing only 8 of that ourselves. The best estimates I've heard for ANWR are 1 million a day. So yeah, it would help, but it's not a long term fix by any means.

Bottom line, we've got to get off this stuff eventually. It's going to be a rocky road until we do.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-08-2008, 01:14 PM
3 days per week - MOTORCYCLES ONLY.

I can get 70 miles to the gallon on this hog

http://images.art.com/images/-/Dumb-Dumber--C10114302.jpeg

Calcountry
03-08-2008, 06:23 PM
It's decided in a large part by the value of the American dollar. The lower the dollar goes, the higher they increase the price in order to compensate for their losses in a global market.

The problem with the price of oil isn't that oil is getting expensive. It's that the dollar is losing its value.
I refer you to DanT for some linear Algebra, to more fully understand all the interconnected linear dependent coefficients with respect to the price of oil.

Calcountry
03-08-2008, 06:23 PM
Anwar much?

Calcountry
03-08-2008, 06:30 PM
Just immagine, no caribou, you can if you try.

If we would have started exploring when Bush was elected, we would be close to bringing that puppy on line right now, well, we wouldn't be talking about 120 dollar oil right now.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, we must save the phuggin caribou.

Oil, is power, plain and simple. Do we want to become a 3rd rate Super power? Or do we want to remain a hegemonic force to be reckoned with? The choice is simple. More drilling in Alaska, California shores, Wyoming, shale oil, clean coal, give it all to me.

To top all that off, we need BIG NUKE. I mean BIG NUKE. If I were running for president, I would tell the people, "A chicken in every pot, and a Nuke in every back yard" er maybe that is little hyperbolic, but the point is, we need the cheap juice to run all the electric automobiles that will be replacing the gas GUZZELERS>

Get over it people, unless, you want to go back to riding bycycles and smoking Chavez donger, and eating Ahhktooongme dida job on a mericas BS.

Give me OIL(Liberty), or give me death.

Bowser
03-08-2008, 07:12 PM
I hear conspiracy nuts babbling on about how "Big Oil" bought the rights to research on hydrogen and electrical powered autos, then shelved them. Is there any meat to these thoughts, or is it just crap?

tiptap
03-08-2008, 07:18 PM
Just immagine, no caribou, you can if you try.

If we would have started exploring when Bush was elected, we would be close to bringing that puppy on line right now, well, we wouldn't be talking about 120 dollar oil right now.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, we must save the phuggin caribou.

Oil, is power, plain and simple. Do we want to become a 3rd rate Super power? Or do we want to remain a hegemonic force to be reckoned with? The choice is simple. More drilling in Alaska, California shores, Wyoming, shale oil, clean coal, give it all to me.

To top all that off, we need BIG NUKE. I mean BIG NUKE. If I were running for president, I would tell the people, "A chicken in every pot, and a Nuke in every back yard" er maybe that is little hyperbolic, but the point is, we need the cheap juice to run all the electric automobiles that will be replacing the gas GUZZELERS>

Get over it people, unless, you want to go back to riding bycycles and smoking Chavez donger, and eating Ahhktooongme dida job on a mericas BS.

Give me OIL(Liberty), or give me death.

A bit funny. But I remember going by the missile sites south of KC going camping in the Ozarks growing up. They are gone now but it wasn't just the cold November air that chilled things a little. I have the chickens now and of course the lead from S. Missouri.

tiptap
03-08-2008, 07:21 PM
I hear conspiracy nuts babbling on about how "Big Oil" bought the rights to research on hydrogen and electrical powered autos, then shelved them. Is there any meat to these thoughts, or is it just crap?

Who cares. The situation is can we find the will to push new solutions through now.