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Logical
03-14-2008, 05:15 PM
Let's face facts, this one statement truly is the Genesis for this controversy.

I want to ask you, on an individual level, if one truly feels the country has perpretrated evil on a significant portion of its population, is this really wrong for them to state as their feeling?

I also want to ask, why is everyone using it like Obama said it?

SBK
03-14-2008, 05:18 PM
No. We've done more good for the world than any other country in history ever has.

SBK
03-14-2008, 05:18 PM
And what kind of preacher ever uses the term "God Damn"? Seriously?

Logical
03-14-2008, 05:21 PM
And what kind of preacher ever uses the term "God Damn"? Seriously?

One that is not obsessed with the Bible being anything more than a very good spiritual guide for his flock. Not everyone believes a person is going to hell for saying "God Damn".

HonestChieffan
03-14-2008, 05:27 PM
What sort of Christian would take his Children to a man who says such things?

What is this mans judgement if he accepts the teachings of a racist hate monger on Sunday?

What sort of man would hire this hate filled sad creature then say he denounces his words...

What sort of man will not accept responsibility for his actions.


He has not the backbone, judgement, or moral character to be President. We are all cheapened by his very involvement in the process. He degrades the country and the men and women who make it possible for this bigot to spew hate every sunday while covered by the very constitution he damns. With Obamas support and blessing.

Logical
03-14-2008, 05:32 PM
What sort of Christian would take his Children to a man who says such things?

What is this mans judgement if he accepts the teachings of a racist hate monger on Sunday?

What sort of man would hire this hate filled sad creature then say he denounces his words...

What sort of man will not accept responsibility for his actions.


He has not the backbone, judgement, or moral character to be President. We are all cheapened by his very involvement in the process. He degrades the country and the men and women who make it possible for this bigot to spew hate every sunday while covered by the very constitution he damns. With Obamas support and blessing.
ROFLROFLROFL

Oh you were serious.:spock:

vailpass
03-14-2008, 05:32 PM
One that is not obsessed with the Bible being anything more than a very good spiritual guide for his flock. Not everyone believes a person is going to hell for saying "God Damn".

Give it up. You will NEVER get mainstream America to come around to your way of thinking on this one.
NEVER.

Taco John
03-14-2008, 05:53 PM
I don't personally see this as any different than Pat Robertson saying that God allowed 9/11 because of America's immorality. I truly believe that the difference here is that a black man is saying it, and white people don't like hearing expressive black men say things that make them squirm.

irishjayhawk
03-14-2008, 06:03 PM
I don't personally see this as any different than Pat Robertson saying that God allowed 9/11 because of America's immorality. I truly believe that the difference here is that a black man is saying it, and white people don't like hearing expressive black men say things that make them squirm.

I have to say I think you're right on this one. Phelps, Robertson, Falwell, and all those frauds say it and it gets shrugged off. Here it's a friggin shitstorm.

irishjayhawk
03-14-2008, 06:04 PM
Let's face facts, this one statement truly is the Genesis for this controversy.

I want to ask you, on an individual level, if one truly feels the country has perpretrated evil on a significant portion of its population, is this really wrong for them to state as their feeling?

I also want to ask, why is everyone using it like Obama said it?

How have you not caught on yet?

If you say anything bad about America, you're in bed with terrorists and are not a citizen. Questioning authority? Get the hell out of here.

jettio
03-14-2008, 06:49 PM
What sort of Christian would take his Children to a man who says such things?

What is this mans judgement if he accepts the teachings of a racist hate monger on Sunday?

What sort of man would hire this hate filled sad creature then say he denounces his words...

What sort of man will not accept responsibility for his actions.


He has not the backbone, judgement, or moral character to be President. We are all cheapened by his very involvement in the process. He degrades the country and the men and women who make it possible for this bigot to spew hate every sunday while covered by the very constitution he damns. With Obamas support and blessing.


Wow, talk about jumping off the bandwagon. Go vailpass, jr., Go.

Hydrae
03-14-2008, 07:02 PM
Let's face facts, this one statement truly is the Genesis for this controversy.

I want to ask you, on an individual level, if one truly feels the country has perpretrated evil on a significant portion of its population, is this really wrong for them to state as their feeling?

I also want to ask, why is everyone using it like Obama said it?

I have been critical of this countries leadership for many years. I have never even come close to those kind of words.

I love my country. Period.

That doesn't mean I don't want to see major changes in how it is run. But the problem is not with "America" it is with those who run things.

This is one of my all time favorite songs, mostly due to the message in the lyrics. When you get to the end, go back and reread the first lines with the recognition of what it is talking about.

Suite Madame Blue by Styx:


Time after time I sit and I wait for your call
I know Im a fool what can I say
Whatever the price Ill pay for you, madame blue
Once long ago, one word from your lips and the world turned around
But somehow youve changed, youre so far away
I long for the past and dream of the days with you, madame blue

Suite madame blue, gaze in your looking glass
Youre not a child anymore
Suite madame blue, the future is all but past
Dressed in your jewels, you made your own rules
You conquered the world and more ..............heavens door

America....america...america..america..
America....america...america..america..
America....america...america..america..

Red white and blue, gaze in your looking glass
Youre not a child anymore
Red, white, and blue, the future is all but past
So lift up your heart, make a new start
And lead us away from here

Logical
03-14-2008, 07:41 PM
I have been critical of this countries leadership for many years. I have never even come close to those kind of words.

I love my country. Period.

That doesn't mean I don't want to see major changes in how it is run. But the problem is not with "America" it is with those who run things.

This is one of my all time favorite songs, mostly due to the message in the lyrics. When you get to the end, go back and reread the first lines with the recognition of what it is talking about.

Suite Madame Blue by Styx:


Time after time I sit and I wait for your call
I know Im a fool what can I say
Whatever the price Ill pay for you, madame blue
Once long ago, one word from your lips and the world turned around
But somehow youve changed, youre so far away
I long for the past and dream of the days with you, madame blue

Suite madame blue, gaze in your looking glass
Youre not a child anymore
Suite madame blue, the future is all but past
Dressed in your jewels, you made your own rules
You conquered the world and more ..............heavens door

America....america...america..america..
America....america...america..america..
America....america...america..america..

Red white and blue, gaze in your looking glass
Youre not a child anymore
Red, white, and blue, the future is all but past
So lift up your heart, make a new start
And lead us away from hereNice song, but I am not sure it is something Rev Wright would relate to in his life experience. I also don't judge him, I would not make such a statement but I defend his right to do so and understand it is coming from his heartfelt feelings about the oppression he has suffered and his congregation faces.

SBK
03-14-2008, 07:50 PM
One that is not obsessed with the Bible being anything more than a very good spiritual guide for his flock. Not everyone believes a person is going to hell for saying "God Damn".

I was meaning what kind of pastor hopes for God to Damn his nation? If he's read his bible he'd know that when God does that he destroys it, not simple makes little corrections.

I don't know where you got anything of this incoherent rant from what I said before....

Logical
03-14-2008, 08:03 PM
I was meaning what kind of pastor hopes for God to Damn his nation? If he's read his bible he'd know that when God does that he destroys it, not simple makes little corrections.

I don't know where you got anything of this incoherent rant from what I said before....


Gee my incoherent rant applies exactly the same to this statement as to what I assumed you meant.:evil:

bango
03-14-2008, 08:12 PM
I say God Damn Canada. I have to doubt that Obama or even most politicians attend church, unless it is a high profile funeral, or they are on the campaign trail making a speach. They might. Maybe they used to. I think like most adults they either no longer go because they are too busy, they no longer believe as strongly, or their parents no longer make them. I think that they state the religion that they were raised by as their own. If they are spiritually devout it is a surprise to me from what I know about faith and theology.

jAZ
03-14-2008, 08:41 PM
The real question is how many evangelical Christians think the same thought about the vast majority of this country that are unrepentant sinners and evil-doers of one sort or another.

SBK
03-14-2008, 08:47 PM
The real question is how many evangelical Christians think the same thought about the vast majority of this country that are unrepentant sinners and evil-doers of one sort or another.

Not nearly as many as you'd like to think. I figured you'd find a way to spin this talk over to someone else.

Logical
03-14-2008, 08:48 PM
The real question is how many evangelical Christians think the same thought about the vast majority of this country that are unrepentant sinners and evil-doers of one sort or another.Wow, well put.

RINGLEADER
03-14-2008, 09:33 PM
The real question is how many evangelical Christians think the same thought about the vast majority of this country that are unrepentant sinners and evil-doers of one sort or another.

Not my place to tell you or any other Obama supporter what to believe but rather than trying to justify or diminish the statements I'd condemn them and try to make the case that such associations don't really matter (like your candidate is doing tonight). Politically, Obama's going to be on the defensive for a bit and he better hope that there isn't a video of him attending a similarly inflammatory sermon. Absent such a discovery he's going to have to state the case that he doesn't believe what some of those close to him are saying.

He should also refrain from sending out some of the surrogates I've seen on TV tonight blaming the remarks on an inability of white America to understand the plight of other races. It's an entirely fair appraisal of the situation but one that comes off terribly from a political perspective.

Mr. Kotter
03-14-2008, 09:54 PM
"G-D America!" in 2008....is unacceptable coming from anyone, as far as I'm concerned. Given the progress we have made, the distance we have come. In the BIG picture-we are the best there is. We aren't perfect; but if we are truly, in your mind that bad, move to Liberia.

That said, Obama....since he categorically rejected such commentary....and distanced himself, for the moment, from his pastor....deserves the benefit of the doubt. Those who continue to beat the drum? They are partisan demagogues.

If, upon due diligence, the press is able to establish Obama could not have NOT known the radical agenda/doctrine of his pastor....then Obama will pay, politically speaking, the ultimate price---he will become irrelevant, and Hillary will steal the nomination. Mark it down.

HonestChieffan
03-14-2008, 09:57 PM
He still has failed to condem the man. He weasles around the words and refuses to even come close to saying he knew the guy is a hatemonger. 20 years of going to the church and he never heard anything bad....right. Im gonna buy that.

Mr. Kotter
03-14-2008, 09:59 PM
He still has failed to condem the man. He weasles around the words and refuses to even come close to saying he knew the guy is a hatemonger. 20 years of going to the church and he never heard anything bad....right. Im gonna buy that.

In fairness, then....McCain will have some distancing and renouncing of his own to do in coming days, then....given his "endorsements."

Not sayin' it's the same, but if you live by the sword...you may die by the sword....:hmmm:

RINGLEADER
03-14-2008, 09:59 PM
"G-D America!" in 2008....is unacceptable coming from anyone, as far as I'm concerned. Given the progress we have made, the distance we have come. In the BIG picture-we are the best there is. We aren't perfect; but if we are truly, in your mind that bad, move to Liberia.

That said, Obama....since he categorically rejected such commentary....and distanced himself, for the moment, from his pastor....deserves the benefit of the doubt. Those who continue to beat the drum? They are partisan demagogues.

If, upon due diligence, the press is able to establish Obama could not have NOT known the radical agenda/doctrine of his pastor....then Obama will pay, politically speaking, the ultimate price---he will become irrelevant, and Hillary will steal the nomination. Mark it down.

While I tend to agree with you, didn't Obama say that words matter? That speeches matter? Interesting that he condemns the words but not the man who uttered them.

BucEyedPea
03-14-2008, 10:00 PM
Well I saw all 3 video clips tonight once I got in. That's 3 in a lifetime of sermons. One sermon was obviously from this election as he talks about Hill & Bill. The man is Obama's religious advisor not political. Did he call for a war on another faith to obliterate it? Nope. That was McCain's spiritual advisor.

Mr. Kotter
03-14-2008, 10:04 PM
While I tend to agree with you, didn't Obama say that words matter? That speeches matter? Interesting that he condemns the words but not the man who uttered them.

"We are all human, and have fallen short of the glory of God?," have we not? :shrug:

FWIW, me included. The important distinction will be, are these isolated quotes expressing deep-seeded and reluctant sentiments....or are they TYPICAL of the sort of message that Pastor Jerimiah often communicated. At this point, I'll assume the former; if it turns out to be the latter, Hillary will be the benefactor. And, likely, so will McCain.

BucEyedPea
03-14-2008, 10:09 PM
Hmmm...? On another note, this should put to rest that Obama is a Muslim or a Muslim terrorist...and put him squarely in the Christian camp for most to see.

Mr. Kotter
03-14-2008, 10:12 PM
Hmmm...? On another note, this should put to rest that Obama is a Muslim or a Muslim terrorist...and put him squarely in the Christian camp for most to see.

Christian, yes. But will most consider it the "Christian" or "christian" camp? :shrug:

It will matter. :hmmm:

BucEyedPea
03-14-2008, 10:14 PM
Christian, yes. But will most consider it the "Christian" or "christian" camp? :shrug:

It will matter. :hmmm:

Do you not think it will handle the Muslim charge so many on the right want to stick?

Douche Baggins
03-14-2008, 10:16 PM
Though I support Obama, I thought his "pastor" was a joke. More of an entertainer than a holy man. I'd probably rather attend his church than a serious one to be honest, though.

Mr. Kotter
03-14-2008, 10:19 PM
Do you not think it will handle the Muslim charge so many on the right want to stick?

Yes, it SHOULD handle it. Not sure that was ever a real issue though.

Obama-haters will find other reasons to not vote for him though; racism, front and center, among them. Much more powerful than the religion argument ever was, IMHO (even though it's terrible and misguided.)

BucEyedPea
03-14-2008, 10:29 PM
Daaayum!

jAZ
03-14-2008, 10:30 PM
Not my place to tell you or any other Obama supporter what to believe but rather than trying to justify or diminish the statements I'd condemn them and try to make the case that such associations don't really matter (like your candidate is doing tonight). Politically, Obama's going to be on the defensive for a bit and he better hope that there isn't a video of him attending a similarly inflammatory sermon. Absent such a discovery he's going to have to state the case that he doesn't believe what some of those close to him are saying.

He should also refrain from sending out some of the surrogates I've seen on TV tonight blaming the remarks on an inability of white America to understand the plight of other races. It's an entirely fair appraisal of the situation but one that comes off terribly from a political perspective.
Thanks for the analysis, were I some johnny-come-lately who came to the DC here to make the case for Obama, that'd be fair.

I'm here for the overall discussion, not the spin.

And I've had two comments on this entire discussion, so far:

1) This guy has said a lot of things that are surely dramatic and controversial. But so far, NOTHING like the religous big-wigs that McCain has endorsing, promoting and advising him to THIS VERY DAY. There is a massive double standard that Obama has to deal with here.

2) The belief expressed in this particular turn of phrase is a widespread belief across ALL Christian religions. Unrepentant sinners are damned. That's not earth shattering stuff.

Were I little more than a spin machine, you'd be right. But that's not why I show up in the DC.

Mr. Kotter
03-14-2008, 10:51 PM
Thanks for the analysis, were I some johnny-come-lately who came to the DC here to make the case for Obama, that'd be fair.

I'm here for the overall discussion, not the spin.

And I've had two comments on this entire discussion, so far:

1) This guy has said a lot of things that are surely dramatic and controversial. But so far, NOTHING like the religous big-wigs that McCain has endorsing, promoting and advising him to THIS VERY DAY. There is a massive double standard that Obama has to deal with here.

2) The belief expressed in this particular turn of phrase is a widespread belief across ALL Christian religions. Unrepentant sinners are damned. That's not earth shattering stuff.

Were I little more than a spin machine, you'd be right. But that's not why I show up in the DC.

You and other idealistic and wide-eyed Obama supporters are missing an important distinction; it's one thing to be "endorsed," and quite another to sit through 20 years of sermons, have that person "marry" you and "baptise" your children....and claim him as a mentor and inspirational leader.

It's an IMPORTANT distinction.

If McCain had a similar relationship with RWNJ religious leaders, on a such a personal and intimate level...you'd have a point. As it stands, you do not.

Obama better run FAST from Pastor Jerimiah...and he better run FAR, and he better be running NOW. Otherwise, Hillary is gonna pull off one of the most unlikely of political comebacks in contemporary history.

jAZ
03-14-2008, 10:55 PM
While I tend to agree with you, didn't Obama say that words matter? That speeches matter? Interesting that he condemns the words but not the man who uttered them.
Just watched his Fox News interview and his justification is exactly what the average person would think at given a similar situation.

1) As a Christian it's hard to turn your back on the person who helped you find Christ.

2) To hear or see one or two comments over the course of hundreds of thousands of words delivered, it would be really difficult to justify an over-reaction like quitting the church.

I've only been to church occasionally, but I can tell you that even in the few limited times that I've gone, the lunch afterwards is often filled with disucssion about how one person or another objected to something that was said in the sermon. It happens all the time. People don't just up and quit their church because they object to an occasional idea surrounded by thousands of unobjectionable ideas.

Obama, is being pressed to hold himself to a standard well beyond that any American would hold themselves to. Such is life, but it's fair to point this fact out.

Logical
03-14-2008, 10:56 PM
...

If, upon due diligence, the press is able to establish Obama could not have NOT known the radical agenda/doctrine of his pastor....then Obama will pay, politically speaking, the ultimate price---he will become irrelevant, and Hillary will steal the nomination. Mark it down.

I assume you got your wording backwords, that does not make sense.

Mr. Kotter
03-14-2008, 10:59 PM
I assume you got your wording backwords, that does not make sense.

Yeah, yeah...it's a double-negative, but the point is the same....if you read through it....if the press CAN establish, that a reasonable person sitting through Obama's pastor's speeches HAD to know he was a radical, a separatist type....then, Obama, will be done, and Hillary will go on to lose to McCain, as unlikely as that may have appeared months ago or so.

Guru
03-14-2008, 11:03 PM
Just watched his Fox News interview and his justification is exactly what the average person would think at given a similar situation.

1) As a Christian it's hard to turn your back on the person who helped you find Christ.

2) To hear or see one or two comments over the course of hundreds of thousands of words delivered, it would be really difficult to justify an over-reaction like quitting the church.

I've only been to church occasionally, but I can tell you that even in the few limited times that I've gone, the lunch afterwards is often filled with disucssion about how one person or another objected to something that was said in the sermon. It happens all the time. People don't just up and quit their church because they object to an occasional idea surrounded by thousands of unobjectionable ideas.

Obama, is being pressed to hold himself to a standard well beyond that any American would hold themselves to. Such is life, but it's fair to point this fact out.

No offense, but it is a lot more than "one or two" comments here.

jAZ
03-14-2008, 11:04 PM
You and other idealistic and wide-eyed Obama supporters are missing an important distinction; it's one thing to be "endorsed," and quite another to sit through 20 years of sermons, have that person "marry" you and "baptise" your children....and claim him as a mentor and inspirational leader.

It's an IMPORTANT distinction.

If McCain had a similar relationship with RWNJ religious leaders, on a such a personal and intimate level...you'd have a point. As it stands, you do not.

Obama better run FAST from Pastor Jerimiah...and he better run FAR, and he better be running NOW. Otherwise, Hillary is gonna pull off one of the most unlikely of political comebacks in contemporary history.
I'm sure that's her goal. And I'm not commenting on the political strategy on how to deal with this. Just on the over-arching context of the situation.

Based on what we know right now, Obama has said that he was aware of only one or two (those already publiclly known, basically) words and that those comments weren't the over-arching theme of the church. But a rare, one-off sort of statement.

If that's the case then his 20 year relationship is with a far different person than what's being trumpted in selected video clips and quotes. That's a pretty important distinction to keep in mind here. At least objectively (not speaking to the spin part of this).

If Wright is basically just a normal pastor 99% of the time... then McCain's relationship with his radical advisors isn't much different (objectively) than Obama's.

People might not want to see it that way. But in the end, that would be the reality.

Mr. Kotter
03-14-2008, 11:04 PM
No offense, but it is a lot more than "one or two" comments here.

One or two....try 6 or 10. :banghead: And it could be the tip of the iceberg. This guy is what Southerners call a "loose cannon." :shake:

jAZ
03-14-2008, 11:10 PM
No offense, but it is a lot more than "one or two" comments here.

Whatever the final number you want to pick is... the point here is that on balance, Obama is saying that Wright's objectionable comments were few and far between. And that on balance his objectionable views didn't rise to the level of breaking ties with the man who helped him find Christ.

That's not an unreasonable or unusual personal struggle to have to face.

Mr. Kotter
03-14-2008, 11:15 PM
Whatever the final number you want to pick is... the point here is that on balance, Obama is saying that Wright's objectionable comments were few and far between. And that on balance his objectionable views didn't rise to the level of breaking ties with the man who helped him find Christ.

That's not an unreasonable or unusual personal struggle to have to face.

I guess we'll see what middle-class white factory workers and rural residents (important contituents, if Obama is to win the GE) of Pennsylvania have to say about that next month....

:shrug:

:hmmm:

jAZ
03-14-2008, 11:25 PM
I guess we'll see what middle-class white factory workers and rural residents (important contituents, if Obama is to win the GE) of Pennsylvania have to say about that next month....

:shrug:

:hmmm:
How it's seen and how it is are not the same thing. It's certainly a political shit-storm right now. I hope Obama's not mistaken in his statements today.

HonestChieffan
03-14-2008, 11:26 PM
What happened bottom line is no matter what he says at this point, his credability was shot over and over becuse he just cannot tell the truth and he really thinks he can schmooze out of this...he cannot. He will lose a good bit of moderate dem support immidiately. And he will eventually offend many black voters, especially black mothers head of households who are regular church goers who will find Wright to be offensive on many levels.

No one will buy a 20 year member of a church who was married by, had kids baptized by, and said the pastor is like an Uncle...no one will buy he didnt know what was going on in the pulpit till yesterday.

In all likelyhood the superdelegate run to hillary took about 30 minutes.

jAZ
03-14-2008, 11:42 PM
What happened bottom line is no matter what he says at this point, his credability was shot over and over becuse he just cannot tell the truth and he really thinks he can schmooze out of this...he cannot.
What "truth" didn't he tell exactly?

Logical
03-14-2008, 11:46 PM
I guess we'll see what middle-class white factory workers and rural residents (important contituents, if Obama is to win the GE) of Pennsylvania have to say about that next month....

:shrug:

:hmmm:
He is not going to win Pennsylvania, he never was, he merely needs to keep the margin of victory within 10 percentage points and the delegate split wont be all that great. He is likely to win pretty much everything after that given they are places like Kentucky, N Carolina, Oregon, W. Virginia,, Guam, Puerto and with states in play like Montana, S. Dakota, Indiana and Michigan (assuming revote). Clearly Clinton will win Florida (if a revote - but by enough to get many extra delegates?) doubtful.

Logical
03-14-2008, 11:49 PM
How it's seen and how it is are not the same thing. It's certainly a political shit-storm right now. I hope Obama's not mistaken in his statements today.
I will agree that if it is proven he intentionally misled the media today his candidacy is over. If he did not this will blow over by Monday, the headlines will shift to Iraq and Petraeus for the next two weeks. Then it will be back to the campaign trail stories for both Hillary and Obama.

Guru
03-15-2008, 12:06 AM
I would like to see more face time of all three candidates on the tube and less pundits. All these pundit interviews DO NOT help ANY candidate. The face to face interviews are more helpful to me than all the rhetoric.

beer bacon
03-15-2008, 12:22 AM
Well I saw all 3 video clips tonight once I got in. That's 3 in a lifetime of sermons. One sermon was obviously from this election as he talks about Hill & Bill. The man is Obama's religious advisor not political. Did he call for a war on another faith to obliterate it? Nope. That was McCain's spiritual advisor.

The people in these threads that are railing on Obama hard are exactly like Hannity and Republican pundits that were on H&C tonight. They are more than happy to attack Obama like a pack of dogs, but as soon as they are questioned about McCain's ties to religious fanatics they show their asses.

The Republican party has made Christian fundamentalist wackos part of their core base, and the way many Republicans are attacking Obama for having a pastor that makes controversial statements is the height of hypocrisy.

Guru
03-15-2008, 12:46 AM
The people in these threads that are railing on Obama hard are exactly like Hannity and Republican pundits that were on H&C tonight. They are more than happy to attack Obama like a pack of dogs, but as soon as they are questioned about McCain's ties to religious fanatics they show their asses.

The Republican party has made Christian fundamentalist wackos part of their core base, and the way many Republicans are attacking Obama for having a pastor that makes controversial statements is the height of hypocrisy.

Just remember, both parties are full of wackos.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-15-2008, 01:45 AM
I think this whole thing is going to give Hillary the nomination.

NewChief
03-15-2008, 02:06 AM
Shamlessly lifted from a TPM (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/183597.php) post:
What drives me crazy is how this could have been avoided so easily if Wright was the slightest bit media-savvy. Had he merely controlled his tongue and limited himself to advocating an attack on Iran to encourage massive worldwide Muslim attacks leading to a fulfillment of the biblical prophecy of end-times and bringing about Armageddon and the summary slaughter of every Jew, Muslim, Catholic, and non-believer on the planet while rapturing him and his flock up to heaven, then followed it up by denouncing Catholics as cult members and blaming Hurricane Katrina on gay people, this story wouldn't be metastasizing like this. One five minute milquetoast repudiation by Obama and it would all be behind him.
But what does Wright do instead? He spews this vile "God damn America" bile. What a psycho.

In all seriousness, I think Wright's message is disgusting. I wish Obama would have distanced himself from the guy even earlier. In looking at some of his sermons, the guy is ridiculous with his pop culture references (The Clintons were riding dirty, blah blah). I'll be curious to see whether this is the NAIL IN THE COFFIN (to borrow a catchphrase from 2004 or so).

beer bacon
03-15-2008, 05:41 AM
Just remember, both parties are full of wackos.

Religious wackos are not significant in the democratic party to the same degree as in the republican party.

My point was that republican candidates regularly court Christian figures who express bigoted or just downright racist views. It is amazing to see some of the conservative folks on this board practicing faux outrage when I consider the significance of religious fundamentalism in their own party.

beer bacon
03-15-2008, 05:52 AM
Shamlessly lifted from a TPM (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/183597.php) post:


In all seriousness, I think Wright's message is disgusting. I wish Obama would have distanced himself from the guy even earlier. In looking at some of his sermons, the guy is ridiculous with his pop culture references (The Clintons were riding dirty, blah blah). I'll be curious to see whether this is the NAIL IN THE COFFIN (to borrow a catchphrase from 2004 or so).

I think his rhetoric was inflammatory. Some of the content, like AIDS being invented by the the American government, is just patently ridiculous, but I think it is believed by a much larger percentage of people in the African American community than in the white.

On the other hand, arguing in 2003 that 9/11 was relatively minor in comparison to many actions committed by the United States a home and abroad was a much more informed than the jingoism and blind support for the Iraq War that went around during that time period.

Many people in this country still seem to have love our nation like a three year-old child loves his/her mother, and anything expressed for the USA that isn't blind love and loyalty is seen by them as traitorous. On the other hand, I think there are very few people that could hear the term "G*D damn America" and not have a negative, visceral reaction.

I also find it interesting that many people think a man that lived during segregation should still have nothing but the most positive outlook on American society.

It is even more interesting that some believe an intelligent and thoughtful man like Obama, who has taken the same intelligent and thoughtful approach to his religion, could not have a nuanced relationship with his pastor in which he shares his views on God's love for man and man's duty for service of the poor and needy, but disavows his pastor's more radical views. It is possible to have a relationship with a person without adopting every single view point of that person.

ChiefaRoo
03-15-2008, 06:19 AM
Listen, if the majority of the African American community believes the garbage this preacher is churning out then they have a serious problem. What a bunch of negative, hate filled and irrational rants.

Baby Lee
03-15-2008, 06:27 AM
I don't personally see this as any different than Pat Robertson saying that God allowed 9/11 because of America's immorality. I truly believe that the difference here is that a black man is saying it, and white people don't like hearing expressive black men say things that make them squirm.

Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.
Sounds like Barack hates him some strong black man.

beer bacon
03-15-2008, 06:53 AM
Listen, if the majority of the African American community believes the garbage this preacher is churning out then they have a serious problem. What a bunch of negative, hate filled and irrational rants.

It is much easier for a member of a specific ethnic or religious group to buy into conspiracy theories involving the government when that government up until relatively recently had a history of systematically oppressing that group.

Iowanian
03-15-2008, 07:30 AM
If Ronpaul would have had fredphelps as his spiritual advisor, I'd be pretty concerned about his true beliefs too.

Harpo doesn't just attend this church, he proclaims the man who says these hateful words as an mentor, his spiritual north arrow, and has him as an advisor on his presidential campaign staff. It concerns me that he looks up to a racist, and we're supposed to think its acceptable.

If John McClame had David Duke as his advisor, I think there would be similar outrage.

ChiefaRoo
03-15-2008, 07:54 AM
If Ronpaul would have had fredphelps as his spiritual advisor, I'd be pretty concerned about his true beliefs too.

Harpo doesn't just attend this church, he proclaims the man who says these hateful words as an mentor, his spiritual north arrow, and has him as an advisor on his presidential campaign staff. It concerns me that he looks up to a racist, and we're supposed to think its acceptable.

If John McClame had David Duke as his advisor, I think there would be similar outrage.

Right on.

Cochise
03-15-2008, 08:41 AM
To me, it sounds like he's using the phrase in it's less offensive form, in the imperative, asking that God judge America for its transgressions, as he sees them. I don't think it's out of the ordinary for any religious leader to say that when a people rebel for so long and so far, that judgement is inevitable, that his patience is not infinite.

What's shocking is that a preacher chose to use language that on the surface is blasphemous, which back in the ancient would you could be stoned for and one would think a cleric would consider a very serious thing, and to a greater degree the tinfoil hat, America-hating stuff that he thinks the USKKKA has done to deserve such judgement.

I don't think he's saying really anything that we don't hear here in the D.C. forum with regularity. We don't deal with race here all that much and I think that's partially because we don't have many minorities posting here. But really, would this guy feel he had no friends or would he get plenty of posts agreeing with him if he posted here?

beer bacon
03-15-2008, 08:50 AM
To me, it sounds like he's using the phrase in it's less offensive form, in the imperative, asking that God judge America for its transgressions, as he sees them. I don't think it's out of the ordinary for any religious leader to say that when a people rebel for so long and so far, that judgement is inevitable, that his patience is not infinite.

What's shocking is that a preacher chose to use language that on the surface is blasphemous, which back in the ancient would you could be stoned for and one would think a cleric would consider a very serious thing, and to a greater degree the tinfoil hat, America-hating stuff that he thinks the USKKKA has done to deserve such judgement.

I don't think he's saying really anything that we don't hear here in the D.C. forum with regularity. We don't deal with race here all that much and I think that's partially because we don't have many minorities posting here. But really, would this guy feel he had no friends or would he get plenty of posts agreeing with him if he posted here?

I think if he used the same rhetoric as he used in his sermon just about everybody around here would be reviled by most posters here.. If he used less inflammatory speech, but expressed a similar sentiment, he would get more support. I agree with the basic sentiment that our foreign policy played a significant role in the terrorist attacks against us, and this has been argued by a diverse array of people, but prefacing this argument with G*d damn America is is not going to help anyone make a successful case.

jAZ
03-15-2008, 09:02 AM
To me, it sounds like he's using the phrase in it's less offensive form, in the imperative, asking that God judge America for its transgressions, as he sees them. I don't think it's out of the ordinary for any religious leader to say that when a people rebel for so long and so far, that judgement is inevitable, that his patience is not infinite.

What's shocking is that a preacher chose to use language that on the surface is blasphemous, which back in the ancient would you could be stoned for and one would think a cleric would consider a very serious thing, and to a greater degree the tinfoil hat, America-hating stuff that he thinks the USKKKA has done to deserve such judgement.

I don't think he's saying really anything that we don't hear here in the D.C. forum with regularity. We don't deal with race here all that much and I think that's partially because we don't have many minorities posting here. But really, would this guy feel he had no friends or would he get plenty of posts agreeing with him if he posted here?

How often do we agree on politics AND religion in one post.

patteeu
03-15-2008, 09:22 AM
I don't personally see this as any different than Pat Robertson saying that God allowed 9/11 because of America's immorality. I truly believe that the difference here is that a black man is saying it, and white people don't like hearing expressive black men say things that make them squirm.

I have to say I think you're right on this one.

Me too. It's funny how so many Obama supporters treat this case differently than they treated Robertson's nutty remarks. Perhaps Taco is right that it's because it's a black man saying it this time, but I suspect it's more because he's a radical leftist who supports a radical leftist instead of a conservative supporting conservatives.

patteeu
03-15-2008, 09:27 AM
I was meaning what kind of pastor hopes for God to Damn his nation? If he's read his bible he'd know that when God does that he destroys it, not simple makes little corrections.

I don't know where you got anything of this incoherent rant from what I said before....

I couldn't tell if he was hoping for God to damn his nation ("G-d damn America") or if he was saying "G-d damned America" in the past tense. The former would, IMO, be far worse, while the latter is more like Pat Robertson's comments suggesting that 9/11 was retribution from God for US sinfulness.

jAZ
03-15-2008, 09:36 AM
I couldn't tell if he was hoping for God to damn his nation ("G-d damn America") or if he was saying "G-d damned America" in the past tense. The former would, IMO, be far worse, while the latter is more like Pat Robertson's comments suggesting that 9/11 was retribution from God for US sinfulness.

I actually believe he meant the latter while saying the former because it fit better rhythmically.

jAZ
03-15-2008, 09:44 AM
Me too. It's funny how so many Obama supporters treat this case differently than they treated Robertson's nutty remarks. Perhaps Taco is right that it's because it's a black man saying it this time, but I suspect it's more because he's a radical leftist who supports a radical leftist instead of a conservative supporting conservatives.
As far as I know, I and others have railed against Robertson and his message. But I don't recall Bush ever being told he must be held accountable for such claims and words of the radical evangelical movement that elected him.

patteeu
03-15-2008, 10:01 AM
I actually believe he meant the latter while saying the former because it fit better rhythmically.

I agree.

As far as I know, I and others have railed against Robertson and his message. But I don't recall Bush ever being told he must be held accountable for such claims and words of the radical evangelical movement that elected him.

Again, Bush is not nearly as close to Robertson as Obama is to Wright. I don't think they're even the same religion, much less a part of the same church. I don't know why Bush would be held accountable for Robertson's wacky statements in the way Obama ought to be held to account for his relationship with Wright.

NewChief
03-15-2008, 10:09 AM
Again, Bush is not nearly as close to Robertson as Obama is to Wright. I don't think they're even the same religion, much less a part of the same church. I don't know why Bush would be held accountable for Robertson's wacky statements in the way Obama ought to be held to account for his relationship with Wright.

A couple of weeks ago, you were claiming Obama wasn't really involved in his church or any kind of true believer. It was just lip service. Now you want to hold him to being a standard bearer for all the beliefs of his pastor. I even believe you used the analogy of how you're agnostic, but attend a Catholic church weekly without really believing anything that's being said from the pulpit. ;)

I'll be curious to see how this is handled. Obama is about to get a week's worth of coverage with him going on every news outlet talking about his faith as a Christian. It should put to bed the notions of him being a Muslim. If he handles this correctly and is able to get out his message in an effective way, this could actually end up helping him in the long run. Of course, it could also blow up his campaign. Such is the tightrope of politics.

jettio
03-15-2008, 10:26 AM
A couple of weeks ago, you were claiming Obama wasn't really involved in his church or any kind of true believer. It was just lip service. Now you want to hold him to being a standard bearer for all the beliefs of his pastor. I even believe you used the analogy of how you're agnostic, but attend a Catholic church weekly without really believing anything that's being said from the pulpit. ;)

I'll be curious to see how this is handled. Obama is about to get a week's worth of coverage with him going on every news outlet talking about his faith as a Christian. It should put to bed the notions of him being a Muslim. If he handles this correctly and is able to get out his message in an effective way, this could actually end up helping him in the long run. Of course, it could also blow up his campaign. Such is the tightrope of politics.


Since it is six weeks between contests, it may give Obama a chance to pull off what patteeu's second most favorite incompetent phony politician Romney tried to.

A Kennedy-like speech about his religious faith.

Romney's was a contrived dud of a speech. Funny how Romney was an obvious phony and patteeu loves him, while patteeu keeps hoping that Obama might be found out.

No sensible person honestly thinks Obama espouses radical or hateful views, but if this thing gets to where his national polls numbers drop before Pennsylvania because of the bad publicity. Obama could get the word out to the press that he intends to give a speech on the topic. It would be a legitimate news event and would be carried live by all cable networks for free, and he could honestly talk about who he is and his real beliefs in a very compelling way.

If Obama's national poll numbers drop 5+ points because of this story about Wright, that could set the stage for a key event of this Presidential year.

jAZ
03-15-2008, 10:27 AM
I agree.



Again, Bush is not nearly as close to Robertson as Obama is to Wright. I don't think they're even the same religion, much less a part of the same church. I don't know why Bush would be held accountable for Robertson's wacky statements in the way Obama ought to be held to account for his relationship with Wright.
Bush's relationship with Robertson is far more incidious.

He wouldn't be President at all without Robertson's intervention in the South Carolina Primary in 2000.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=4360

And as a result of that, Bush has packed the Whitehouse with LOTS of Robertson-schooled deciples from Reagent University grads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Coles_James

Bush is beyond linked to Robertson. He's politically indebted to him.

jAZ
03-15-2008, 10:40 AM
I'll be curious to see how this is handled. Obama is about to get a week's worth of coverage with him going on every news outlet talking about his faith as a Christian. It should put to bed the notions of him being a Muslim. If he handles this correctly and is able to get out his message in an effective way, this could actually end up helping him in the long run. Of course, it could also blow up his campaign. Such is the tightrope of politics.

Very interesting.

patteeu
03-15-2008, 10:53 AM
I think his rhetoric was inflammatory. Some of the content, like AIDS being invented by the the American government, is just patently ridiculous, but I think it is believed by a much larger percentage of people in the African American community than in the white.

On the other hand, arguing in 2003 that 9/11 was relatively minor in comparison to many actions committed by the United States a home and abroad was a much more informed than the jingoism and blind support for the Iraq War that went around during that time period.

Thats just plain ridiculous. Pearl Harbor was relatively minor too, just think about the tens of thousands of people we killed during WWI. And why do you try to tie 9/11 in with the Iraq war anyway? Isn't it a no no to mention the two together like that?

Many people in this country still seem to have love our nation like a three year-old child loves his/her mother, and anything expressed for the USA that isn't blind love and loyalty is seen by them as traitorous. On the other hand, I think there are very few people that could hear the term "G*D damn America" and not have a negative, visceral reaction.

I also find it interesting that many people think a man that lived during segregation should still have nothing but the most positive outlook on American society.

It is even more interesting that some believe an intelligent and thoughtful man like Obama, who has taken the same intelligent and thoughtful approach to his religion, could not have a nuanced relationship with his pastor in which he shares his views on God's love for man and man's duty for service of the poor and needy, but disavows his pastor's more radical views. It is possible to have a relationship with a person without adopting every single view point of that person.

About as interesting as it would be if a Republican decided consult David Duke about strategies to roll back affirmative action while disavowing his views on white separatism or supremicism. Surely you'd be nuanced enough to recognize that even though Duke may have reprehensible views on other things, his opposition to affirmative action is well within the mainstream debate.

patteeu
03-15-2008, 11:05 AM
A couple of weeks ago, you were claiming Obama wasn't really involved in his church or any kind of true believer. It was just lip service. Now you want to hold him to being a standard bearer for all the beliefs of his pastor. I even believe you used the analogy of how you're agnostic, but attend a Catholic church weekly without really believing anything that's being said from the pulpit. ;)

I'll be curious to see how this is handled. Obama is about to get a week's worth of coverage with him going on every news outlet talking about his faith as a Christian. It should put to bed the notions of him being a Muslim. If he handles this correctly and is able to get out his message in an effective way, this could actually end up helping him in the long run. Of course, it could also blow up his campaign. Such is the tightrope of politics.

That's a good point. I almost replied to someone who talked about "faux outrage" just a minute ago but decided to wait on making this point. Since you've brought it up, I'd be the first to admit that Obama might not buy into what this guy's preaching because I think it's possible that attending this church all along has been more about political calculation than an expression of devout religiosity. Nonetheless, I don't think it's plausible, as Obama is now suggesting, that he was oblivious to the more controversial aspects of the message of his senior pastor.

Obama and his supporters are being hoisted by their own petard here. They are the ones who made a big deal about Obama's devotion to this church. Now that the church has become somewhat of an embarassment, everyone is trying to say that Obama didn't even know about these controversial views. That's laughable, IMO. I can't be positive that my theory about Obama really being agnostic is true, but I'm pretty darned sure that you can't be as close as he was to this pastor and not be aware of the radical nature of his message (particularly when some of the clips shown yesterday on TV appear on the DVD of the pastor's greatest sermons).

beer bacon
03-15-2008, 11:07 AM
Thats just plain ridiculous. Pearl Harbor was relatively minor too, just think about the tens of thousands of people we killed during WWI. And why do you try to tie 9/11 in with the Iraq war anyway? Isn't it a no no to mention the two together like that?



About as interesting as it would be if a Republican decided consult David Duke about strategies to roll back affirmative action while disavowing his views on white separatism or supremicism. Surely you'd be nuanced enough to recognize that even though Duke may have reprehensible views on other things, his opposition to affirmative action is well within the mainstream debate.

Its a no-no to continue to claim that Iraq was somehow behind 9/11, and that by attacking Iraq we were fighting terrorism and gaining revenge on the people that perpetuated those terrorist attacks. You know, the narrative pushed by the Administration in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. I have trouble believing that you didn't know this was what I was getting at in my post you quoted.

Also, it is awesome how you can watch five minutes of clips of guy over a 30 year period and draw the conclusion that he is the exact same as someone like David Duke who has an extensively researched history of bigotry.

In another three pages you will be referring to Wright as Nietzsche and Obama as Hitler. You really don't spare any hyperbole when demonizing your opponents.

bango
03-15-2008, 11:25 AM
I am beside myself in disbelief. Maybe I have become too cynical or apathetic when it comes to politics, but you guys are telling me that you actually believe that the three left running actually go to church. You do not think that they just keep these ministers arround just to appeal to the people that vote with their bibles? Almost everything that these people do with the exception of breathing is politically motivated, especially at that level. I have to wonder if they would breath a certain way if it would help them to get more votes. If Johnny Boy was told to breath through his mouth in order to get more Republican votes, I think that he would do it.

HonestChieffan
03-15-2008, 11:33 AM
Hillary has always had close ties to her Methodist Church. I suppose that would set off the antiAmerican Obamammaniacs to know shes part of a very calm mainstream multiracial church.

patteeu
03-15-2008, 11:45 AM
Its a no-no to continue to claim that Iraq was somehow behind 9/11, and that by attacking Iraq we were fighting terrorism and gaining revenge on the people that perpetuated those terrorist attacks. You know, the narrative pushed by the Administration in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. I have trouble believing that you didn't know this was what I was getting at in my post you quoted.

No one from the Administration claims that Iraq was behind 9/11, nor did they ever make such a claim in any kind of certain terms. You're a master of slander today.

Also, it is awesome how you can watch five minutes of clips of guy over a 30 year period and draw the conclusion that he is the exact same as someone like David Duke who has an extensively researched history of bigotry.

In another three pages you will be referring to Wright as Nietzsche and Obama as Hitler. You really don't spare any hyperbole when demonizing your opponents.

I didn't compare Wright to Duke in any sense other than that both men have some mainstream, noncontroversial views in the midst of whatever out-of-mainstream views they may also possess. I'm just pointing out that you don't really believe what you're saying when you talk about "nuance". You're proving my point.

BucEyedPea
03-15-2008, 12:01 PM
No one from the Administration claims that Iraq was behind 9/11, nor did they ever make such a claim in any kind of certain terms. You're a master of slander today.
It was heavily implied with the AQ binLaden connection. And that implied the likely scenario that SH would give them WMD. I mean isn't Radar who you've backed on this point, the one here still makin' this case? Yup! That's the whole idea, position one concept with another to get everybody going. It's a very effective advertising technique.

RINGLEADER
03-15-2008, 01:06 PM
Well I saw all 3 video clips tonight once I got in. That's 3 in a lifetime of sermons. One sermon was obviously from this election as he talks about Hill & Bill. The man is Obama's religious advisor not political. Did he call for a war on another faith to obliterate it? Nope. That was McCain's spiritual advisor.

Yeah, that's pretty much how the Obama team are trying to diminish the impact of the statements. He's done a lot of sermons and these are just a few instances where he went overboard. I guess.

It's kind of like saying that Mark Foley did a lot of good for college pages over many years and only occassionally did he fantasize about having sex with them. Or Senator Craig went to the bathroom thousands of times without hitting on the guy in the stall next door. LOL

RINGLEADER
03-15-2008, 01:14 PM
Thanks for the analysis, were I some johnny-come-lately who came to the DC here to make the case for Obama, that'd be fair.

I'm here for the overall discussion, not the spin.

And I've had two comments on this entire discussion, so far:

1) This guy has said a lot of things that are surely dramatic and controversial. But so far, NOTHING like the religous big-wigs that McCain has endorsing, promoting and advising him to THIS VERY DAY. There is a massive double standard that Obama has to deal with here.

2) The belief expressed in this particular turn of phrase is a widespread belief across ALL Christian religions. Unrepentant sinners are damned. That's not earth shattering stuff.

Were I little more than a spin machine, you'd be right. But that's not why I show up in the DC.

See, I don't get why as a supporter of Obama you don't just vilify the comments rather than trying to diminish them or rationalize them. Follow the lead of your candidate on this one I say.

Obama wants to characterize the guy as a crazy uncle who spouts off (which might be true), but politically he's going to be forced to reconcile it with other statements in the past like those in the Chicago Tribune where he acknowledges consulting with Wright on his "bold political moves."

If he truly didn't know anything about the nature of his church before he began his campaign then I say so what to all this. But if he's found to have been in attendance during one of these sermons he's going to have major political problems.

RINGLEADER
03-15-2008, 01:18 PM
Obama, is being pressed to hold himself to a standard well beyond that any American would hold themselves to. Such is life, but it's fair to point this fact out.

I think he's being pressed to hold himself to a higher standard because, well, he's running for president. :)

BucEyedPea
03-15-2008, 01:19 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much how the Obama team are trying to diminish the impact of the statements. He's done a lot of sermons and these are just a few instances where he went overboard. I guess.

It's kind of like saying that Mark Foley did a lot of good for college pages over many years and only occassionally did he fantasize about having sex with them. Or Senator Craig went to the bathroom thousands of times without hitting on the guy in the stall next door. LOL

Shut up!

That's How I SAW it on my own from watching FOX broadcast and commentary.

Logical
03-15-2008, 01:20 PM
It was heavily implied with the AQ binLaden connection. And that implied the likely scenario that SH would give them WMD. I mean isn't Radar who you've backed on this point, the one here still makin' this case? Yup! That's the whole idea, position one concept with another to get everybody going. It's a very effective advertising technique.

Don't be silly BEP, that would help repudiate Bush/Cheney patteeu could never be involved with that.

RINGLEADER
03-15-2008, 01:25 PM
I will agree that if it is proven he intentionally misled the media today his candidacy is over. If he did not this will blow over by Monday, the headlines will shift to Iraq and Petraeus for the next two weeks. Then it will be back to the campaign trail stories for both Hillary and Obama.

I was reminded of the Gary Hart fiasco. Obama challenged the media to go find a video of him or his wife nodding while one of these sermons is given (or even being in attendance). If they find one it's going to be interesting to see how Obama gets out of it. If they don't then this will be one of those background stories that will bother a lot of people who wouldn't vote for him anyway (not unlike the Keating scandal for McCain).

keg in kc
03-15-2008, 01:29 PM
If they don't then this will be one of those background stories that will bother a lot of people who wouldn't vote for him anyway .That pretty much sums up virtually every story like this. Obama supporters won't give it any credence, Clinton supporters weren't voting for him anyway. It's political masturbation.

NewChief
03-15-2008, 01:31 PM
I was reminded of the Gary Hart fiasco. Obama challenged the media to go find a video of him or his wife nodding while one of these sermons is given (or even being in attendance). If they find one it's going to be interesting to see how Obama gets out of it. If they don't then this will be one of those background stories that will bother a lot of people who wouldn't vote for him anyway (not unlike the Keating scandal for McCain).

I agree that those sort of blanket denials have a way of coming back and biting the denier in the ass. What's likely going to happen (as we're already seeing with the NewsMax story) is that a sermon will be found that's along the lines of the GD America sermon, but there won't be one that's exactly in magnitude to that one. As such, there will still be gray area for equivocation from both sides.

Logical
03-15-2008, 01:36 PM
I was reminded of the Gary Hart fiasco. Obama challenged the media to go find a video of him or his wife nodding while one of these sermons is given (or even being in attendance). If they find one it's going to be interesting to see how Obama gets out of it. If they don't then this will be one of those background stories that will bother a lot of people who wouldn't vote for him anyway (not unlike the Keating scandal for McCain).
Excellent analogy

Mr. Kotter
03-15-2008, 01:40 PM
I have to say I think you're right on this one. Phelps, Robertson, Falwell, and all those frauds say it and it gets shrugged off. Here it's a friggin shitstorm.


It's a shitstorm because....this guy has been Obama's pastor for 20 years, he has married the Obamas, he has baptised their girls, he has been a mentor and inspiration....according to Obama, himself. That's the difference some are refusing to concede. Anyone with THAT sort of a relationships with any of the nutjobs you've cited, should and wuold face the same shitstorm. The press RAILED against W in 2000 for his speech at Bob Jones University, and rightfully so. Obama's relationship to this kook is MUCH closer. So far, no candidate for President I know of has....such a close relationship with any of the kooks you mention.

That said, for the moment Barack's distancing himself from this guy, along with the categorical rejection of the inflamatory rhetoric of this pastor....will probably get him off the hook. And that should be the end of it.

Unless due diligence reveals that Obama's claim that he had not heard this sort of stuff before is untrue.

HonestChieffan
03-15-2008, 01:42 PM
And there are rumbles on news sites Obama may have been caught in his own trp of lies about where he was relative to church and the hate sermons....going to sink his boat if true

patteeu
03-15-2008, 02:42 PM
It was heavily implied with the AQ binLaden connection. And that implied the likely scenario that SH would give them WMD. I mean isn't Radar who you've backed on this point, the one here still makin' this case? Yup! That's the whole idea, position one concept with another to get everybody going. It's a very effective advertising technique.

No it wasn't, but I'm not going to re-argue it with you. You know what you want to believe regardless of the truth.

Cochise
03-15-2008, 03:08 PM
And there are rumbles on news sites Obama may have been caught in his own trp of lies about where he was relative to church and the hate sermons....going to sink his boat if true

If he's caught in a lie about this it's going to get bad for him. It would not only put the lie to the 'different kind of politican' stuff, but religious people would really not appreciate lying about religion.

BucEyedPea
03-15-2008, 03:34 PM
No it wasn't, but I'm not going to re-argue it with you. You know what you want to believe regardless of the truth.
I KNOW what I witnessed.
Remember: lack of results says all!
My guys were right, BEFORE we went in. I'll stick with results. They don't require belief.

irishjayhawk
03-15-2008, 03:41 PM
It's a shitstorm because....this guy has been Obama's pastor for 20 years, he has married the Obamas, he has baptised their girls, he has been a mentor and inspiration....according to Obama, himself. That's the difference some are refusing to concede. Anyone with THAT sort of a relationships with any of the nutjobs you've cited, should and wuold face the same shitstorm. The press RAILED against W in 2000 for his speech at Bob Jones University, and rightfully so. Obama's relationship to this kook is MUCH closer. So far, no candidate for President I know of has....such a close relationship with any of the kooks you mention.

That said, for the moment Barack's distancing himself from this guy, along with the categorical rejection of the inflamatory rhetoric of this pastor....will probably get him off the hook. And that should be the end of it.

Unless due diligence reveals that Obama's claim that he had not heard this sort of stuff before is untrue.

I would bet a pretty good chuck of Americans would have written it off if it was Fawell or someone. But that's pure conjecture.

RINGLEADER
03-16-2008, 01:31 PM
I would bet a pretty good chuck of Americans would have written it off if it was Fawell or someone. But that's pure conjecture.

The one difference I've observed between this guy and the Fawell/Robinson's is that when the right-wing guys get caught saying something stupid they profess ignorance and ask forgiveness and accept (out of the corner of their mouth cuz they're caught) that they did wrong.

This Jeremiah Wright guy, and a lot of his supporters, do the opposite. They dig in their heels and try to justify the truth of their idiocy.

That's why it was unusual to see that Obama's surrogates were sticking to the "crazy old uncle" and "white America doesn't understand" lines. They should just run away from the guy, say he's wrong, and then ask (rhetorically) if it would make everyone happier if Obama invented new ways to dismiss the same guy and the same statements.

Again, politically, it's just crazy to try to diminish the import of the statements or otherwise rationalize them by saying they're out of context or only represent a few sermons out of thousands.

go bowe
03-16-2008, 09:19 PM
ROFLROFLROFL

Oh you were serious.:spock:that's the exact opposite of my reaction...

i thought that he was being serious at first, but when i reread it, it seemed really funny to me...

almost as funny as a marc bulger post...

well, maby not that funny...

King_Chief_Fan
03-17-2008, 07:51 AM
I was reminded of the Gary Hart fiasco. Obama challenged the media to go find a video of him or his wife nodding while one of these sermons is given (or even being in attendance). If they find one it's going to be interesting to see how Obama gets out of it. If they don't then this will be one of those background stories that will bother a lot of people who wouldn't vote for him anyway (not unlike the Keating scandal for McCain).

ha ha. You can't tell me that IF he has been a member for 20 years, he can deny knowing his pastors position. He may not agree (so he says), but his presence (that is in question also, so maybe he is just a member to cover up his Muslim preferences) and his donations to such an organization makes him really really stupid, or part of the movement.

bkkcoh
03-17-2008, 08:19 AM
Let's face facts, this one statement truly is the Genesis for this controversy.

I want to ask you, on an individual level, if one truly feels the country has perpretrated evil on a significant portion of its population, is this really wrong for them to state as their feeling?

I also want to ask, why is everyone using it like Obama said it?

Haven't read the replies, but I am sure that the reason Obama has been taken to the woodshed on this is because he was a member of this church for 20 years. If people didn't agree with the philosphy of the preacher, they wouldn't stay in the congregation for the period of time. They wouldn't give thousands of dollars to the church to further the spread of the word.

Would they? :hmmm:

I would really like to see the churches that rail against someone politically to have their non-tax status taken away from them by the IRS. It is bogus for a candidate, regardless of who it is, to get up in front of the congregation and give what is like stump speeches.

Where are people who are crying for the separation fo church and state........

RINGLEADER
03-17-2008, 07:24 PM
ha ha. You can't tell me that IF he has been a member for 20 years, he can deny knowing his pastors position. He may not agree (so he says), but his presence (that is in question also, so maybe he is just a member to cover up his Muslim preferences) and his donations to such an organization makes him really really stupid, or part of the movement.

Maybe he does believe these things. Based on what the principals have been reported as saying he knew that an association with Rev. Wright could be difficult for the campaign, but it didn't stop him from publicly telling anyone who would listen that he actively sought the minister's counsel and considered him a great man.

The only position he can take is that he was ignorant of Rev. Wright's statements. Absent some video proof to the contrary this will probably have an impact, but isn't a fatal problem for his candidacy.

Logical
03-17-2008, 07:30 PM
ha ha. You can't tell me that IF he has been a member for 20 years, he can deny knowing his pastors position. He may not agree (so he says), but his presence (that is in question also, so maybe he is just a member to cover up his Muslim preferences) and his donations to such an organization makes him really really stupid, or part of the movement.
ROFL

Dude this post is too over the top to be believable.

Logical
03-17-2008, 07:32 PM
Haven't read the replies, but I am sure that the reason Obama has been taken to the woodshed on this is because he was a member of this church for 20 years. If people didn't agree with the philosphy of the preacher, they wouldn't stay in the congregation for the period of time. They wouldn't give thousands of dollars to the church to further the spread of the word.

Would they? :hmmm:

I would really like to see the churches that rail against someone politically to have their non-tax status taken away from them by the IRS. It is bogus for a candidate, regardless of who it is, to get up in front of the congregation and give what is like stump speeches.

Where are people who are crying for the separation fo church and state........
Great point and I agree

WilliamTheIrish
03-19-2008, 04:13 AM
I was reminded of the Gary Hart fiasco. Obama challenged the media to go find a video of him or his wife nodding while one of these sermons is given (or even being in attendance). If they find one it's going to be interesting to see how Obama gets out of it. If they don't then this will be one of those background stories that will bother a lot of people who wouldn't vote for him anyway (not unlike the Keating scandal for McCain).

Yea, cause they are so much alike. Dude, McCain's involvement in the Keating 5 is indisputable. To equate what this pastor has said in Obama's presense to McCain's actual involvement with Keating and the Lincoln S&L is just pure horseshit.
MCCain accepted money from Keating then tried to use his influence to have investigators back off from investigating Keating. Took a dozen trips on Keating's private jet to Keating's vacation spot in the Bahamas. He and the rest of the Keating 5 should have gone to jail. But you don't go to jail when you get investigated by your peers on the Hill.

But that's all documented, so what's the point of investigating what McCain did 20 plus years ago and using that to define what type of person/ politician he may be, when we can focus on what a pastor may have said in the presence of a candidate over the last 20 plus years and attribute that to Obama's character?

Incredible.

WilliamTheIrish
03-19-2008, 01:02 PM
I also want to ask, why is everyone using it like Obama said it?

On some level, it may be because the opposition may have some fear of being labeled "Just another racist" that opposes Obama.

By attacking from a strange angle, and then almost attributing the words to Obama, they can get to him without that nasty label being attached.

Weird theory, but I thought I'd toss it out there.

RINGLEADER
03-20-2008, 08:44 AM
Yea, cause they are so much alike. Dude, McCain's involvement in the Keating 5 is indisputable. To equate what this pastor has said in Obama's presense to McCain's actual involvement with Keating and the Lincoln S&L is just pure horseshit.

MCCain accepted money from Keating then tried to use his influence to have investigators back off from investigating Keating. Took a dozen trips on Keating's private jet to Keating's vacation spot in the Bahamas. He and the rest of the Keating 5 should have gone to jail. But you don't go to jail when you get investigated by your peers on the Hill.

But that's all documented, so what's the point of investigating what McCain did 20 plus years ago and using that to define what type of person/ politician he may be, when we can focus on what a pastor may have said in the presence of a candidate over the last 20 plus years and attribute that to Obama's character?

Incredible.

I wasn't commenting on what McCain did. Just that absent some proof that shows Obama did something he said he didn't do it's the kind of story that will have minimal political impact other than to reinforce the beliefs of those who wouldn't vote for him to begin with.

And I guarantee you that the Keating issues will be raised to tarnish McCain, irrespective of their legitimacy.

That said, Obama's speech seemed to contradict what he told certain reporters on the preceding Friday. I'm sure some 527 group will run those statements back-to-back to reinforce their view that Obama isn't being consistent (or honest) on the subject.

RINGLEADER
03-20-2008, 08:56 AM
On some level, it may be because the opposition may have some fear of being labeled "Just another racist" that opposes Obama.

By attacking from a strange angle, and then almost attributing the words to Obama, they can get to him without that nasty label being attached.

Weird theory, but I thought I'd toss it out there.

How about this for a commercial:

[CLIP FROM ANDERSON COOPER INTERVIEW]:

"I have to confess that those are not statements that I ever heard when I was sitting in the pews at this church."

[CLIP FROM OBAMA SPEECH]:

"Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes."

Let Obama's own words and lack of consistency be the story (wrapped in the Wright comments, of course).

And before anyone who supports Obama starts saying that he was narrowly and specifically referring to the comments in the videos I'd suggest you go back and re-read the Anderson Cooper interview with Obama. Knowing now that he DID hear "controversial" comments from Wright the political contortions he tries to sell during those interviews is really remarkable.

Sully
03-20-2008, 09:16 AM
How about this for a commercial:

[CLIP FROM ANDERSON COOPER INTERVIEW]:

"I have to confess that those are not statements that I ever heard when I was sitting in the pews at this church."

[CLIP FROM OBAMA SPEECH]:

"Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes."

Let Obama's own words and lack of consistency be the story (wrapped in the Wright comments, of course).

And before anyone who supports Obama starts saying that he was narrowly and specifically referring to the comments in the videos I'd suggest you go back and re-read the Anderson Cooper interview with Obama. Knowing now that he DID hear "controversial" comments from Wright the political contortions he tries to sell during those interviews is really remarkable.

Those two quotes are not inconsistent.
Not at all.

patteeu
03-20-2008, 09:37 AM
Those two quotes are not inconsistent.
Not at all.

Good luck with that. Even though I agree that you're technically right, it's also pretty clear from the transcript that he was reluctant to admit that *any* controversial statements had been made while he was in the pews of TUCC until it became clear that his attempt to neuter the controversy with his Cooper interview had failed.

And, of course, whether you're right or wrong, the hypothetical commercial described by RINGLEADER would be very powerful.

Duck Dog
03-20-2008, 09:48 AM
If a black politicians or preachers want to unit blacks and whites it's a good idea to stop inciting blacks and stop alianating whites. Do people really think main stream white America wants to hear this shit, 24/7.

Slavery is bad, racism is bad. Stop shoving it in our faces and maybe we'll stop turning our backs.

SBK
03-20-2008, 05:40 PM
If a black politicians or preachers want to unit blacks and whites it's a good idea to stop inciting blacks and stop alianating whites. Do people really think main stream white America wants to hear this shit, 24/7.

Slavery is bad, racism is bad. Stop shoving it in our faces and maybe we'll stop turning our backs.

No doubt. Here's a novel concept, we're all equal, how bout you treat us that way? (yes, this goes both ways)

listopencil
03-20-2008, 09:44 PM
" Some guys got better and some guys, all of a sudden, stayed the same ". Herman Edwards, former Head Coach, KC Chiefs

That's art right there. That's art. Sorry to mention football in the Holy War forum.

RINGLEADER
03-23-2008, 11:47 AM
Good luck with that. Even though I agree that you're technically right, it's also pretty clear from the transcript that he was reluctant to admit that *any* controversial statements had been made while he was in the pews of TUCC until it became clear that his attempt to neuter the controversy with his Cooper interview had failed.

And, of course, whether you're right or wrong, the hypothetical commercial described by RINGLEADER would be very powerful.

Speaking totally from a political perspective, my point wasn't whether it was 100% accurate but whether it was accurate enough to get the point across and allow the Repubs to introduce the subject without having race cards thrown at them. It becomes a commercial about his consistency and whether you can believe what he says. All wrapped in Rev. Wright's comments of course.

But you do have to admire, looking back at the original interviews, the kabuki dance that Obama was playing with the interviewers. Dude's got skills.

a1na2
03-23-2008, 12:05 PM
One that is not obsessed with the Bible being anything more than a very good spiritual guide for his flock. Not everyone believes a person is going to hell for saying "God Damn".

You don't go to hell for sinning, there is always forgiveness, that's what Christianity is all about. Using the Lords name in vain means far more than what you perceive that one phrase to mean.

If you use that word and are unrepentant or any other form of using the Lord's name in vain then you stand that chance. We all do.

You seem to have more of an obsession with the words in the bible rather than the people that study the bible.

My recommendation would be to depend on whatever your beliefs or non-beliefs are and to lay off those that do wish to believe in God and all he has to offer to them.

a1na2
03-23-2008, 12:07 PM
ROFLROFLROFL

Oh you were serious.:spock:

It's obvious that you don't know enough to understand that what your kids hear in school, in church and on the playground have an impact on life.

I was raised to think everyone was equal, it's worked well for me.

a1na2
03-23-2008, 12:11 PM
Hmmm...? On another note, this should put to rest that Obama is a Muslim or a Muslim terrorist...and put him squarely in the Christian camp for most to see.

Tell me how you can read what is in a Man's heart?

You are just wanting to stir the pot. We know that Obama has connections to both religions. Where will his heart lead him when confronted with questions about both?

a1na2
03-23-2008, 12:22 PM
Do you not think it will handle the Muslim charge so many on the right want to stick?

How many are in a "so many"?

I know he has connections to both and there is no way to tell what lies inside of the man.

There should be concern, just like there should be concern about McCain and Clinton.

a1na2
03-23-2008, 12:28 PM
Whatever the final number you want to pick is... the point here is that on balance, Obama is saying that Wright's objectionable comments were few and far between. And that on balance his objectionable views didn't rise to the level of breaking ties with the man who helped him find Christ.

That's not an unreasonable or unusual personal struggle to have to face.

You don't go to a Church for 20 years and only learn in the months leading up to an election that the mission of the Church is more of a racist mission than a Christian mission.

God didn't create White Man, Red Man and then Black Man and later Yellow Man. He created mankind, kind of lumps us all into the same category, that of one race. It's simple as that - We are the Human Race, end of story.

The continuing story is not due to the creation but of the independence of mankind to develop their fears of those that are different looking than they are so they are bad.

RINGLEADER
03-23-2008, 04:18 PM
Whatever the final number you want to pick is... the point here is that on balance, Obama is saying that Wright's objectionable comments were few and far between. And that on balance his objectionable views didn't rise to the level of breaking ties with the man who helped him find Christ.

That's not an unreasonable or unusual personal struggle to have to face.

Obama is saying that, but the truth is that you don't know the accuracy of those proclaimations anymore than those denying the sincerity of Obama's statements know he's wrong. You're also smart enough to know that bad news is an easier sell. With very few exceptions the media hasn't made much of an effort to put Wright's comments in context because they are so inflammatory to the majority of Americans (and, IMO, probably not deserving of much of a defense -- which makes Obama's position even more curious politically).

***SPRAYER
08-23-2008, 09:37 PM
I don't personally see this as any different than Pat Robertson saying that God allowed 9/11 because of America's immorality. I truly believe that the difference here is that a black man is saying it, and white people don't like hearing expressive black men say things that make them squirm.

I have to say I think you're right on this one. Phelps, Robertson, Falwell, and all those frauds say it and it gets shrugged off. Here it's a friggin shitstorm.

The people in these threads that are railing on Obama hard are exactly like Hannity and Republican pundits that were on H&C tonight. They are more than happy to attack Obama like a pack of dogs, but as soon as they are questioned about McCain's ties to religious fanatics they show their asses.

The Republican party has made Christian fundamentalist wackos part of their core base, and the way many Republicans are attacking Obama for having a pastor that makes controversial statements is the height of hypocrisy.


Silly moonbats.

ROFL

Logical
08-23-2008, 11:34 PM
You don't go to hell for sinning, there is always forgiveness, that's what Christianity is all about. Using the Lords name in vain means far more than what you perceive that one phrase to mean.

If you use that word and are unrepentant or any other form of using the Lord's name in vain then you stand that chance. We all do.

You seem to have more of an obsession with the words in the bible rather than the people that study the bible.

My recommendation would be to depend on whatever your beliefs or non-beliefs are and to lay off those that do wish to believe in God and all he has to offer to them.Well I missed this, a wonderful opp to respond to one of your previous incarnations. I hope everyone who clings to the bible verses does not follow them literally. The world would be much worse for all the stoning and stuff.:p

***SPRAYER
08-24-2008, 02:14 PM
I want to ask you, on an individual level, if one truly feels the country has perpretrated evil on a significant portion of its population, is this really wrong for them to state as their feeling?

Are you talking about Negro's again? If so, why don't you just come out and say it?


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Baby Lee
08-24-2008, 02:46 PM
Are you talking about Negro's again? If so, why don't you just come out and say it?


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I make my ass very available!!!

***SPRAYER
08-24-2008, 02:49 PM
I make my ass very available!!!

I'm all out! You monkey minded nincomfuqin' POOPS!

ROFL

***SPRAYER
08-24-2008, 02:56 PM
Do people really think main stream white America wants to hear this shit, 24/7.

White liberals do. They jack off to it.