PDA

View Full Version : The US 'Original sin' of slavery?


memyselfI
03-18-2008, 10:58 AM
Give me a fuggin break. I think Native Americans could really make an argument that stealing their land and slaughtering their people would qualify as the US' 'original sin.'

In any context, I am not sure how his remark is correct. :cuss: Yes, it makes for religious rhetoric HIS followers will drink up but what else?

Taco John
03-18-2008, 10:59 AM
In any context, I'm not sure how you're not a stupid bitch.

|Zach|
03-18-2008, 10:59 AM
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/whKtBOWu4kw&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/whKtBOWu4kw&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

|Zach|
03-18-2008, 11:01 AM
Let me check the official source on this countries sins in order.

Just hold on a bit.

StcChief
03-18-2008, 11:01 AM
as If slavery hadn't been going on in the rest of the world for centuries. An we build part of our economy around it.

HonestChieffan
03-18-2008, 11:02 AM
The message is shame on you white folks but you can be clean and cleansed by voting for me and finally cast off the racism of the past and come into the light of hope. Oh, and remember this is about issues not race.

Hillary is doing a dance.

memyselfI
03-18-2008, 11:03 AM
as If slavery hadn't been going on in the rest of the world for centuries. An we build part of our economy around it.

No shit. We didn't originate it. It has existed almost as long as humanity has. That doesn't make OUR participation in it right but it certainly does not make it an 'original sin' for this country.

If I did not like the guy before I really can't stand him now. What a pompous windbag.

HolmeZz
03-18-2008, 11:06 AM
'The United States' didn't exist at the time of conflict with Native Americans.

Iowanian
03-18-2008, 11:08 AM
'The United States' didn't exist at the time of conflict with Native Americans.


Is that your final answer?

Something tells me some of the Sioux, Cheyene and others MIGHT disagree. Custer's family might be relieved though.

memyselfI
03-18-2008, 11:08 AM
'The United States' didn't exist at the time of conflict with Native Americans.

Oh, so that will be the quantifier. :doh!:

Amnorix
03-18-2008, 11:10 AM
'The United States' didn't exist at the time of conflict with Native Americans.


? We had conflicts with them before and after the formation of the United States as a separate sovereign nation. I have no idea what point you're tryign to make.

keg in kc
03-18-2008, 11:12 AM
The real question is whether there's any point to this other than "I hate obama and I'm going to bulldog every word that comes out of his mouth regardless".

I haven't seen this level of stalking since Grbac was in town.

StcChief
03-18-2008, 11:17 AM
No shit. We didn't originate it. It has existed almost as long as humanity has. That doesn't make OUR participation in it right but it certainly does not make it an 'original sin' for this country.

If I did not like the guy before I really can't stand him now. What a pompous windbag.

no it's not an original sin our our country. It's been a 'sin' occuring for thousands of years. What are they doing about it in ME, Africa and human rights in Islam NOTHING.

maybe 'whiteman' shouild have just stayed in europe.

maybe Asians shouldn't have come over Siberian land bridge, or others migrated from Central America,

Water under bridge. We don't owe ancestors of slaves a dime.

HolmeZz
03-18-2008, 11:19 AM
Is that your final answer?

Something tells me some of the Sioux, Cheyene and others MIGHT disagree. Custer's family might be relieved though.

I assumed she was talking about the 1600s rather than the 1800s.

pikesome
03-18-2008, 11:22 AM
no it's not an original sin our our country. It's been a 'sin' occuring for thousands of years. What are they doing about it in ME, Africa and human rights in Islam NOTHING.

maybe 'whiteman' shouild have just stayed in europe.

maybe Asians shouldn't have come over Siberian land bridge, or others migrated from Central America,

Water under bridge. We don't owe ancestors of slaves a dime.

I was watching a Discovery show that pointed to the idea that part of the "original" settlers of NA were from France. Not sure how well that theory holds up but...

dirk digler
03-18-2008, 11:22 AM
Is this inaccurate?

<tt><tt>a question that divided the colonies and brought the convention to a stalemate until the founders chose to allow the slave trade to continue for at least twenty more years, and to leave any final resolution to future generations. </tt></tt>

memyselfI
03-18-2008, 11:24 AM
no it's not an original sin our our country. It's been a 'sin' occuring for thousands of years. What are they doing about it in ME, Africa and human rights in Islam NOTHING.

maybe 'whiteman' shouild have just stayed in europe.

maybe Asians shouldn't have come over Siberian land bridge, or others migrated from Central America,

Water under bridge. We don't owe ancestors of slaves a dime.

Agreed. Now if only Baaarack believed it.

pikesome
03-18-2008, 11:25 AM
Is this inaccurate?

Might be able to argue about the twenty years part but no, it's not inaccurate, they punted on the question.

dirk digler
03-18-2008, 11:27 AM
Might be able to argue about the twenty years part but no, it's not inaccurate, they punted on the question.

Thanks that is what I thought.

Edit: I really need to be more nice

memyselfI
03-18-2008, 11:30 AM
I was watching a Discovery show that pointed to the idea that part of the "original" settlers of NA were from France. Not sure how well that theory holds up but...

Were there not slaves even in Biblical times? They might have been called servants but their plight was the same.

HonestChieffan
03-18-2008, 11:31 AM
Is this inaccurate?

No it is accurate. A very good read, long but good, is Bio of Alexander Hamilton...authors name I do not recall but was a huge best seller a couple years back. There were huge issues at the time led from Federalists on the anti slavery side and the republicans led by Madison and Jefferson on the pro or dont change it side.

memyselfI
03-18-2008, 11:31 AM
Thanks that is what I thought. Once again Denise is exposed as a liar and a c-u-n-t.

Wow. Obama's supporters have really taken his message to heart. ROFL

pikesome
03-18-2008, 11:32 AM
Were there not slaves even in Biblical times? They might have been called servants but their plight was the same.

I'm as sure as one can get that from the first time more than 1 human lived together there were slaves.

Amnorix
03-18-2008, 11:34 AM
No it is accurate. A very good read, long but good, is Bio of Alexander Hamilton...authors name I do not recall but was a huge best seller a couple years back. There were huge issues at the time led from Federalists on the anti slavery side and the republicans led by Madison and Jefferson on the pro or dont change it side.

The book is by Ron Chernow, and it is a terrific read.

Chernow is a fabulous historian and biographer -- my absolute favorite. The two other best books that he has (IMHO) are about John Rockefeller (Titan) and (mostly) JP MOrgan (the House of Morgan).

Great stuff.

dirk digler
03-18-2008, 11:34 AM
Wow. Obama's supporters have really taken his message to heart. ROFL

Yes I apologize for calling you a c-u-n-t. You just frustrate the hell out of me sometimes

HonestChieffan
03-18-2008, 11:35 AM
Is this inaccurate?

I looked it up if interested: http://www.amazon.com/Alexander-Hamilton-Ron-Chernow/dp/1594200092

dirk digler
03-18-2008, 11:35 AM
No it is accurate. A very good read, long but good, is Bio of Alexander Hamilton...authors name I do not recall but was a huge best seller a couple years back. There were huge issues at the time led from Federalists on the anti slavery side and the republicans led by Madison and Jefferson on the pro or dont change it side.

So what Obama said in his speech was correct? So what is the problem again?

beer bacon
03-18-2008, 11:38 AM
Wow. Obama's supporters have really taken his message to heart. ROFL

You are really ****ing ignorant. Watch his entire speech, because you are completely misconstruing what Obama was saying.

HonestChieffan
03-18-2008, 11:41 AM
So what Obama said in his speech was correct? So what is the problem again?

That part was historically accurate but probably the goal of his talk was not to reiterate that there was a debate at the time of the founding fathers discussion on slavery.

The balance of his speech is most likely going to be debated.

NewChief
03-18-2008, 11:43 AM
You are really ****ing ignorant. Watch his entire speech, because you are completely misconstruing what Obama was saying.

She could watch the speech 10,000 times, and she'll still find fault. Her mind is made up. Obama could get elected and make all her political dreams come true, and she'd still critique him.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-18-2008, 11:44 AM
as If slavery hadn't been going on in the rest of the world for centuries. An we build part of our economy around it.

Do people think it doesn't still exist? Make less than 40k a year? If so, you're one of them.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-18-2008, 11:46 AM
Give me a fuggin break. I think Native Americans could really make an argument that stealing their land and slaughtering their people would qualify as the US' 'original sin.'

In any context, I am not sure how his remark is correct. :cuss: Yes, it makes for religious rhetoric HIS followers will drink up but what else?

You're a prime example of "The vagina vote."

pikesome
03-18-2008, 11:49 AM
Do people think it doesn't still exist? Make less than 40k a year? If so, you're one of them.

I'm sure I could find a Ukrainian prostitute who has nothing but the clothes she wears and the food she's given who'd gladly take 40K. Poor != Slavery. Hell I'm not sure 40K = Poor even.

Perspective people.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-18-2008, 11:49 AM
You're a prime example of "The vagina vote."

Is your husband in the same boat? I've got a strong feeling he is. Call it a hunch.

Alphaman
03-18-2008, 11:51 AM
no it's not an original sin our our country. It's been a 'sin' occuring for thousands of years. What are they doing about it in ME, Africa and human rights in Islam NOTHING.

maybe 'whiteman' shouild have just stayed in europe.

maybe Asians shouldn't have come over Siberian land bridge, or others migrated from Central America,

Water under bridge. We don't owe ancestors of slaves a dime.

1) Obama did not say that slavery was THE original sin of this country. His implication was that it was the original sin of the racial divide of this country.

2) He eloquently explained to those who would not only listen, but hear, that it is not water under the bridge....the same as hard working white Americans', who feel bitterness because they perceive their jobs and opportunities are being lost to African Americans, feelings are not water under the bridge.

The feelings and long reaching impacts of slavery, jim crow, redlining, NAFTA and other such policies are still felt today. The main point is that these things were real, but we can't continue to be stuck there. We must all move forward and the only way to do that is together. The progression of the African American does not have to be at the expense of the white American. Similarly, the progression of white American does not have to be at the expense of the African American.

3) Yes slavery existed around the world prior to the US, even in the Bible. Did you know that slaves in the Bible were released in the year of Jubilee (every 7 years). They only stayed as servants if they chose to. Something like that was not even close to happening in the US version of slavery.

4) Finally, at no point did Obama make reference to reparations. Any attempt to put that onto his line of thinking is inflammatory and misleading.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-18-2008, 11:51 AM
I'm sure I could find a Ukrainian prostitute who has nothing but the clothes she wears and the food she's given who'd gladly take 40K. Poor != Slavery. Hell I'm not sure 40K = Poor even.

Perspective people.

I guess in the midwest, it would go a lot farther. 40k around here is survival money. Tons of people don't make it. Without a doubt IMO, they are slaves.

pikesome
03-18-2008, 11:59 AM
I guess in the midwest, it would go a lot farther. 40k around here is survival money. Tons of people don't make it. Without a doubt IMO, they are slaves.

Don't demean people who really are slaves (which still happens every day, everywhere).

Police have arrested a gang in northern India holding seventeen men captive and forcing them to give blood several times a week.

Indian police said Tuesday that they have broken a racket in which a gang held 17 men captive and forced them to give blood several times a week, selling it for thousands of dollars.

The men -- all poor migrant workers -- were so weak when they were rescued that they could not stand up, and are now being treated in hospital, police said.

"Five men who were running this racket were arrested," police official Piyush Mordia told AFP from the town of Gorakhpur, in northern Uttar Pradesh state, adding police were searching for another four men.

The arrested men have been charged with selling blood, which is banned in India, and unlawfully confining their victims.

The gang promised jobs to poor laborers who traveled to the town and persuaded them to undergo blood tests by paying them 50 rupees (1.25 dollars).

They were then paid 1,500 rupees (37.5 dollars) a month for giving blood on a frequent basis, and were too weak to challenge their captors.

The blood was then sold to local hospitals for between 800 rupees and 4,000 rupees a unit, depending on the rarity of the blood type, with the gang making as much as 30,000 rupees per "donor" each month, Mordia said.

I've lived in a few rough situations monetarily but nothing like this.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-18-2008, 12:11 PM
Don't demean people who really are slaves (which still happens every day, everywhere).



I've lived in a few rough situations monetarily but nothing like this.


Outside of getting physically beaten, I do think that poor people are REALLY slaves. I mean, I understand that poor people are still free people, but not entirely. They do without the most basic of needs. Get teeth pulled from their mouths because they can't afford the dental care. Shit like that is disgusting to me. I'm glad that I'm blessed enough to not have to deal with it, but I empathize with those people. Nothing like busting your ass all day just to go home still unable to properly provide for your family.

dirk digler
03-18-2008, 12:24 PM
I looked it up if interested: http://www.amazon.com/Alexander-Hamilton-Ron-Chernow/dp/1594200092

Thanks I will take a look at it.

Duck Dog
03-18-2008, 01:52 PM
You're a prime example of "The vagina vote."


Let me guess, white males who won't vote for him are the racist vote, eh?

Obama supporters make Kerry supporters look genius.

|Zach|
03-18-2008, 01:54 PM
Let me guess, white males who won't vote for him are the racist vote, eh?



Whoa, strawman argument.

pikesome
03-18-2008, 02:17 PM
Outside of getting physically beaten, I do think that poor people are REALLY slaves. I mean, I understand that poor people are still free people, but not entirely. They do without the most basic of needs. Get teeth pulled from their mouths because they can't afford the dental care. Shit like that is disgusting to me. I'm glad that I'm blessed enough to not have to deal with it, but I empathize with those people. Nothing like busting your ass all day just to go home still unable to properly provide for your family.

I don't think you understand what slavery really is then. Which I guess is a good thing.

a1na2
03-18-2008, 02:28 PM
We don't owe ancestors of slaves a dime.

If there were going to be any reparations for slavery it would have to be received from those that originally sold the slaves to people in America.

Just from some of the history that you can find in most any resource is that those that came to North America as slaves were sold to whomever by those from their own countries.

I would not say that those that were sold into slavery were offered a better place in North America but I would say that their chances of survival in their own country was limited. Those traded as slaves were not of the upper crust of any country, they were almost like those of the lowest caste in India.

HolmeZz
03-18-2008, 04:31 PM
Let me guess, white males who won't vote for him are the racist vote, eh?

Obama supporters make Kerry supporters look genius.

LMAO I'm pretty sure Floppy is not an Obama supporter.

Bowser
03-18-2008, 04:35 PM
We should all forfeit the upcoming election. It will be just like not buying gas on a certain date.

kcgrl
03-18-2008, 07:31 PM
http://www.xaclan.com/forums/memberlist.php?sid=1ea076b179b1be8840d2535026fcd804

http://xaclan.com/Koolie/?N=A

htt://xaclan.com/Jambob/

kcgrl
03-18-2008, 07:32 PM
http://xaclan.com/Koolie/?N=A


htt://xaclan.com/Jambob/?N=A

kcgrl
03-18-2008, 07:33 PM
http://xaclan.com/Koolie/?N=A

http://xaclan.com/Jambob/?N=A

StcChief
03-18-2008, 07:51 PM
go away Pr0n trool

Mr. Flopnuts
03-18-2008, 07:59 PM
Let me guess, white males who won't vote for him are the racist vote, eh?

Obama supporters make Kerry supporters look genius.

Riiiiight. I never said I was voting for the guy. I'm not sure I am. So the vagina vote comprises all women right? Where did I say that? Try not to read too much into nothing.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-18-2008, 08:00 PM
LMAO I'm pretty sure Floppy is not an Obama supporter.

Maybe. I'm not sure yet. I just know I'm not voting for Hillary under any circumstances. I'm afraid of John McCain.

beer bacon
03-18-2008, 08:12 PM
McCain needs to be our President. He is the only candidate remaining with the courage to go into Iran and finish Al-Q once and for all.

patteeu
03-18-2008, 08:13 PM
McCain needs to be our President. He is the only candidate remaining with the courage to go into Iran and finish Al-Q once and for all.

Now you're coming around. LOL

Mr. Flopnuts
03-18-2008, 08:33 PM
McCain needs to be our President. He is the only candidate remaining with the courage to go into Iran and finish Al-Q once and for all.

I don't come around too much. You're kidding right? You have to be.

StcChief
03-18-2008, 08:35 PM
I don't come around too much. You're kidding right? You have to be. remove your Bark brainwashing goggles.

beer bacon
03-18-2008, 09:33 PM
I don't come around too much. You're kidding right? You have to be.

Senator has made the very important point three times in the last 24 hours that Al-Q is going to Iran for training, and then they are returning to Iraq. We need to stop this vile country from encouraging and aiding Al-Q, just like we stopped Iraq from doing the same. I don't see how this is even up for debate!

HolmeZz
03-18-2008, 10:23 PM
Now you're coming around. LOL

Yeah, I don't know how much Al Qaeda you're going to find in Iran.

Logical
03-18-2008, 10:59 PM
You are really ****ing ignorant. Watch his entire speech, because you are completely misconstruing what Obama was saying.

Actually she is the ultimate contrarian, she is not ignorant at all. Once I learned this she became more an amusement and interesting personality than an opponent.

Logical
03-18-2008, 11:04 PM
1) Obama did not say that slavery was THE original sin of this country. His implication was that it was the original sin of the racial divide of this country.

2) He eloquently explained to those who would not only listen, but hear, that it is not water under the bridge....the same as hard working white Americans', who feel bitterness because they perceive their jobs and opportunities are being lost to African Americans, feelings are not water under the bridge.

The feelings and long reaching impacts of slavery, jim crow, redlining, NAFTA and other such policies are still felt today. The main point is that these things were real, but we can't continue to be stuck there. We must all move forward and the only way to do that is together. The progression of the African American does not have to be at the expense of the white American. Similarly, the progression of white American does not have to be at the expense of the African American.

3) Yes slavery existed around the world prior to the US, even in the Bible. Did you know that slaves in the Bible were released in the year of Jubilee (every 7 years). They only stayed as servants if they chose to. Something like that was not even close to happening in the US version of slavery.

4) Finally, at no point did Obama make reference to reparations. Any attempt to put that onto his line of thinking is inflammatory and misleading.:clap::clap::clap:

Mr. Flopnuts
03-18-2008, 11:04 PM
Senator has made the very important point three times in the last 24 hours that Al-Q is going to Iran for training, and then they are returning to Iraq. We need to stop this vile country from encouraging and aiding Al-Q, just like we stopped Iraq from doing the same. I don't see how this is even up for debate!

I'm glad to know that there are honest, forthright Americans in this country such as yourself that recognizes the importance of our nation's priorities. Be proud, you are one of the few with a backbone!!!!!

Logical
03-18-2008, 11:12 PM
I don't come around too much. You're kidding right? You have to be.

Since no one answered you seriously let me explain. Beer bacon is using McCain's three screw-ups while speaking in various locations in the ME as a chance for humor. McCain was corrected the last time by Lieberman and then he said "I meant extremist are going to Iran to be trained, not Al Quada" It was funny as hell to watch on the news.

stevieray
03-18-2008, 11:25 PM
...why hasn't this been in his campaign since it's inception..?

keep pertpetuating the lie that absolves responsibilty for bad behavior and continues the cycle...

...and today close to another 1500 black children have been aborted....and seven out of the ten who are born will be without a daddy....and eight out of ten men in prison come from fatherless homes....family is the backbone of any society...

ChiefaRoo
03-18-2008, 11:29 PM
Obama is the modern version of this guy.
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7mNDHTfdn1A&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7mNDHTfdn1A&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

HolmeZz
03-18-2008, 11:35 PM
...and today close to another 1500 black children have been aborted....and seven out of the ten who are born will be without a daddy...

So what you're saying is we need to start aborting more babies?

WoodDraw
03-19-2008, 12:55 AM
The "original sin" is that our nation declared independence based on the ideal that all men are created equal, with specific natural rights, and England violated these rights. We then, as a nation, ignored the natural rights of huge groups of people out of our own self-interest. Not just blacks, but women and Native Americans and others too.

This discrimination wasn't atypical of the time. The founders don't deserve blame for our problems today; they wrote a document that reflects the context and inequalities of the time. But their incredible contributions also come with the history of systematic discrimination. The later generations were left with the job of rectifying these inequalities - a job ongoing to this day.

I wish I had the specific numbers, but polls have shown that the majority of whites view racism as largely eradicated and a fiction of black culture, while blacks view racism as real occurrence ignored by white Americans. A racial divide exists in this country. Stevieray said something below, and while I have no idea what context he meant it in, I like the quote: that we "keep pertpetuating the lie that absolves responsibility for bad behavior and continues the cycle". That lie is reflected above - that both sides deflect the responsibility of our problems onto the other. A person's race correlates strongly with his or her view on racism.

Obama spoke better on race than most I have heard. He highlighted the resentment inherent in the discussion, a resentment that can be seen in the posts here. The feeling that the problems of race are specific to a community - the creation of a black culture unable to move from their past or a white majority silent in their ongoing discrimination. The key to race is in that resentment. Attempts to pretend that race doesn't affect the policies and culture of our society today prevents that same progress that deflecting blame to only one side of the equation does.

We all know our history, and we all live through the political and social disagreements stemming from that history. We can't pretend that race doesn't exist in our society today anymore than we can deny it existed in our history. And we shouldn't pass our responsibility to address those issues on to anyone else anymore than we would expect them to blame us.

I don't care about Barack's church, or the views of his Reverend. As a social liberal and practicing Catholic, I've sat through many masses and read many doctrines that don't express my views. Those ideas weren't expressed by bad people, but simply went against my views. Rev. Wright's views were more divisive than most, and a leading Presidential candidate should denounce them - which he did, if somewhat politically. I don't agree with all of Obama positions, or even many of those in this speech. But I'd encourage everyone not to expect more of him than you expect of any other person, and to read this speech as what it is and not what you want it to be.

ChiefaRoo
03-19-2008, 01:19 AM
The "original sin" is that our nation declared independence based on the ideal that all men are created equal, with specific natural rights, and England violated these rights. We then, as a nation, ignored the natural rights of huge groups of people out of our own self-interest. Not just blacks, but women and Native Americans and others too.

This discrimination wasn't atypical of the time. The founders don't deserve blame for our problems today; they wrote a document that reflects the context and inequalities of the time. But their incredible contributions also come with the history of systematic discrimination. The later generations were left with the job of rectifying these inequalities - a job ongoing to this day.

I wish I had the specific numbers, but polls have shown that the majority of whites view racism as largely eradicated and a fiction of black culture, while blacks view racism as real occurrence ignored by white Americans. A racial divide exists in this country. Stevieray said something below, and while I have no idea what context he meant it in, I like the quote: that we "keep pertpetuating the lie that absolves responsibility for bad behavior and continues the cycle". That lie is reflected above - that both sides deflect the responsibility of our problems onto the other. A person's race correlates strongly with his or her view on racism.

Obama spoke better on race than most I have heard. He highlighted the resentment inherent in the discussion, a resentment that can be seen in the posts here. The feeling that the problems of race are specific to a community - the creation of a black culture unable to move from their past or a white majority silent in their ongoing discrimination. The key to race is in that resentment. Attempts to pretend that race doesn't affect the policies and culture of our society today prevents that same progress that deflecting blame to only one side of the equation does.

We all know our history, and we all live through the political and social disagreements stemming from that history. We can't pretend that race doesn't exist in our society today anymore than we can deny it existed in our history. And we shouldn't pass our responsibility to address those issues on to anyone else anymore than we would expect them to blame us.

I don't care about Barack's church, or the views of his Reverend. As a social liberal and practicing Catholic, I've sat through many masses and read many doctrines that don't express my views. Those ideas weren't expressed by bad people, but simply went against my views. Rev. Wright's views were more divisive than most, and a leading Presidential candidate should denounce them - which he did, if somewhat politically. I don't agree with all of Obama positions, or even many of those in this speech. But I'd encourage everyone not to expect more of him than you expect of any other person, and to read this speech as what it is and not what you want it to be.

You had me then you lost me. Rev. Wright's views are flatly anti-american, anti white (saying the HIV virus was invented by whites to kill blacks). The fact is Wright is a relic of the past, as is Jesse Jackson, Farakhan and that buffoon Al Sharpton (although I liked his cameo in Mr. Deeds).

From my everyday point of view when I meet strangers of any color or nationality I treat them with a smile, I speak directly to them by looking them in the eye and I give them the common respect they most likely deserve. I don't care if they are Mexican, Chinese, black or whatever. If I had the opportunity I would become friends with them and I have had a few drink with friends who were black and hispanic. The truth is though I never invited them to have dinner with my family and they never asked me. I sometimes wonder why that was as I certainly would of gone if invited and would of recriprocated. The point is I think most younger Americans feel a wall that separates the races a little bit but most would personally stand shoulder to shoulder in solidarity with any American regardless of race as long as it was to defend and support liberty, the civil rights and freedom in this country for everyone regardless of race. What I cannot tolerate and will not support is when I hear black leaders going negatitve and shitting all over the USA as a country or taking shots at whites for things that happened many decades ago (civil rights movements) or even centuries ago (slavery). I simply won't listen to that stuff. Hell, my ancestors fought to keep KS a free state so what does that make me? We didn't own anyone. Now, I fully admit that my Grandparents have referred to blacks casually in conversation when I was growing up using the N word. One of my grandpa's would crap himself if I brought a black girl home and announced we are getting married. However, that would be his problem though, not mine and since he is my blood, I would simply choose to ignore his ignorance as opposed to getting in his face. Obama is trying to use this same let it slide tactic but it won't work because Wright is not his blood, he is not his Uncle and he is not his family. He is a pastor of a church that Obama chose to go to eventhough it was full of vile and vitriol on occasion

Obama's deal is he has a pastor, whose church he has been a member of for two decades listening to some good sermons and to some simply vile, hateful and venomous stuff from this guy. I don't buy the whole arguement that he's simply venting for the things that happened to him in his youth. He's supposed to be a man of God and a Christian and he should minister to all colors and creeds. No this man is a hater, a disgrace and bitter old fool. He may have taught Obama much about Christianity but he no doubt taught him some of the vile and hate he has towards whites as well. My President is one who represents all the people and I am troubled that this young Senator from Ill. has has a race baiting preacher who has been so close to him for so long.

Regardless, I wouldn't vote for him as he's a socialist and on top of it he's naive in the ways of the world and needs more seasoning. I think a lot of whites gave him credit for being a new type of Pol. but this mess with his church is tearing away a some of the we've risen above race politics that has been the cornerstone of his campaign. I mean, he called for Ferraro's head last week based on one comparitively mild comment regarding race and he was for the firing of Don Imus over his stupid comments. No this guy just isn't up for being President. His politics of socialism are bad for America, and he's not the shining knight of the new age he has held himself up to be. He's a good pol. (If you believe in his values which I don't) but he's not ready to be President of the United States.

Otter
03-19-2008, 02:41 AM
Let's play a little game. Click on the below link and substitute "black" with "white" every time the word comes up then, tell me, if you can, objectively how you would perceive these statements:

http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html

Let's cut the bullshit, it would considered a white supremacist church and the candidate wouldn't stand a chance.

At least, hopefully, Obama backers can understand where his protesters in this matter are coming from in their concern. I'm personally undecided.

patteeu
03-19-2008, 08:08 AM
Yeah, I don't know how much Al Qaeda you're going to find in Iran.

I know you're referring to the supposed gaffe made by John McCain, although I didn't know that's what BeerBacon was doing in the post I replied to (I just assumed it was one of his crazy gibberish posts). But the truth is that we've been told time and time again that there actually are al Qaeda in Iran and that there is a long history of ties between the Iranian regime and the terrorist organization:

* Iran 'is training the next al-Qa'eda leaders' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/14/wiran214.xml) London Telegraph, Nov 15, 2006

...

Iran has always maintained close relations with al-Qa'eda, even though the Shia Muslim state is known to have many ideological and strategic differences with the terror group's Sunni leadership.
advertisement

Western intelligence officials now believe that Iran is trying to cultivate a new generation of al-Qa'eda leaders who will be prepared to work closely with Teheran when they eventually take control.

...

* Iran Is Found To Be a Lair of Al Qaeda (http://www.nysun.com/article/58507) New York Sun, Jul 17, 2007

One of two known Al Qaeda leadership councils meets regularly in eastern Iran, where the American intelligence community believes dozens of senior Al Qaeda leaders have reconstituted a good part of the terror conglomerate's senior leadership structure.

That is a consensus judgment from a final working draft of a new National Intelligence Estimate, titled "The Terrorist Threat to the U.S. Homeland," on the organization that attacked the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. ...

* 9/11 Panel Links Al Qaeda, Iran (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6581-2004Jun25.html) Washington Post, Jun 26, 2004

While it found no operational ties between al Qaeda and Iraq, the commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks has concluded that Osama bin Laden's terrorist network had long-running contacts with Iraq's neighbor and historic foe, Iran.

...

HolmeZz
03-19-2008, 11:41 AM
I know you're referring to the supposed gaffe made by John McCain...

LMAO 'Supposed'? If it wasn't, why did he correct himself?

patteeu
03-19-2008, 12:29 PM
LMAO 'Supposed'? If it wasn't, why did he correct himself?

I didn't see it and I haven't seen him speak of it so I don't know whether it was a gaffe or not. But I do know that there are plenty of connections between Iran and al Qaeda as described by the sample of reporting on this issue which I provided in the part of my last post that you chose not to focus on.

HolmeZz
03-19-2008, 01:36 PM
There's no excuse to confuse shia and sunni like he did.

The funny thing is he prefaced his original statement by saying it was common knowledge. ROFL

Carlota69
03-19-2008, 01:48 PM
Wow. Obama's supporters have really taken his message to heart. ROFL

[She was referring to BO's message of unity, yet one of his supporters called her a ****. Not really the makings of untity, change, acceptance and blahblah...
Dirk
B]Yes I apologize for calling you a c-u-n-t. You just frustrate the hell out of me sometimes[/B]
Dirk responded like he knew what was up, but no one else did...
Beer Bacon
You are really ****ing ignorant. Watch his entire speech, because you are completely misconstruing what Obama was saying

patteeu
03-19-2008, 02:00 PM
There's no excuse to confuse shia and shi'ite like he did.

The funny thing is he prefaced his original statement by saying it was common knowledge. ROFL

Whether he made that mistake or not, it won't matter because no one will believe he takes a back seat to Hillary or Obama on foreign affairs expertise.

beer bacon
03-19-2008, 02:09 PM
Whether he made that mistake or not, it won't matter because no one will believe he takes a back seat to Hillary or Obama on foreign affairs expertise.

He did make that mistake:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/18/mccain.comments/index.html#cnnSTCText

"McCain also made a gaffe Tuesday when he said several times that Iran, which is mostly a Shiite country, was training the predominantly Sunni militant group al Qaeda."

patteeu
03-19-2008, 02:23 PM
He did make that mistake:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/18/mccain.comments/index.html#cnnSTCText

"McCain also made a gaffe Tuesday when he said several times that Iran, which is mostly a Shiite country, was training the predominantly Sunni militant group al Qaeda."

I know people say he made the gaffe. I haven't heard his comments on the subject yet though, and given that Iran has extensive contacts with al Qaeda (including training them according to the Telegraph article I linked below), I'm not prepared to just accept a critics word for it. You're probably right and McCain was probably thinking one thing but saying another, but I'm going to wait and see anyway.

It's like dirk digler's thread last week where he triumphantly announced that the pentagon had once and for all established that there were no links between Saddam and al Qaeda. That turned out to be false, although in dirk's defense, he was faithfully repeating the shoddy journalism from the McClatchy article.

|Zach|
03-19-2008, 02:35 PM
I know people say he made the gaffe. I haven't heard his comments on the subject yet though, and given that Iran has extensive contacts with al Qaeda (including training them according to the Telegraph article I linked below), I'm not prepared to just accept a critics word for it. You're probably right and McCain was probably thinking one thing but saying another, but I'm going to wait and see anyway.

It's like dirk digler's thread last week where he triumphantly announced that the pentagon had once and for all established that there were no links between Saddam and al Qaeda. That turned out to be false, although in dirk's defense, he was faithfully repeating the shoddy journalism from the McClatchy article.
Now you are back to playing stupid.

Maybe if you were not pouring through every word of Barack Obama to look for the new straw to grasp at you would have more of a feel for your own candidate's blunders that are obvious and don't have to be bent and skewed like taffy to make sense.

beer bacon
03-19-2008, 02:36 PM
I know people say he made the gaffe. I haven't heard his comments on the subject yet though, and given that Iran has extensive contacts with al Qaeda (including training them according to the Telegraph article I linked below), I'm not prepared to just accept a critics word for it. You're probably right and McCain was probably thinking one thing but saying another, but I'm going to wait and see anyway.

It's like dirk digler's thread last week where he triumphantly announced that the pentagon had once and for all established that there were no links between Saddam and al Qaeda. That turned out to be false, although in dirk's defense, he was faithfully repeating the shoddy journalism from the McClatchy article.

Just so you know, I personally saw McCain make the gaffe. Here is another link, that includes McCain's quote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23697639/

Mr. McCain said at a news conference in Amman that he continued to be concerned about Iranians “taking Al Qaeda into Iran, training them and sending them back.” Asked about that statement, Mr. McCain said: “Well, it’s common knowledge and has been reported in the media that Al Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran. That’s well known. And it’s unfortunate.”

Additionally, there is also a video posted on that link where McCain discusses why he "misspoke."

Chief Faithful
03-19-2008, 02:38 PM
Listening to Wright explains to me why Michelle Obama stated, "for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country".

When I was growing up my grand parents and parents could not see another race of any kind without seeing color. Even my grand mother referred to my father as a "sand n*gger" and my father was just as condeming of his references to other races especially Palistinian's and blacks.

What I enjoy about the current youth of our country is how little they see color. I marvel at how color blind my children are when it comes to race. They truely do not see color of skin.

I truely look forward to the day when the black community no longer need the un-holy trinity of Rev. Wright, Rev. Jackson and Rev. Sharpton telling blacks the whites are keeping them down.

beer bacon
03-19-2008, 02:38 PM
Now you are back to playing stupid.

Maybe if you were not pouring through every word of Barack Obama to look for the new straw to grasp at you would have more of a feel for your own candidate's blunders that are obvious and don't have to be bent and skewed like taffy to make sense.

Obama needs to go through 30 years of Wright's sermons and discuss every single controversial thing he said, but patteeu can't take 10 seconds on Google to verify if McCain actually said what everyone is claiming.

|Zach|
03-19-2008, 02:42 PM
What I enjoy about the current youth of our country is how little they see color. I marvel at how color blind my children are when it comes to race. They truely do not see color of skin.
.

:clap:

patteeu
03-19-2008, 04:45 PM
Just so you know, I personally saw McCain make the gaffe. Here is another link, that includes McCain's quote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23697639/

Mr. McCain said at a news conference in Amman that he continued to be concerned about Iranians “taking Al Qaeda into Iran, training them and sending them back.” Asked about that statement, Mr. McCain said: “Well, it’s common knowledge and has been reported in the media that Al Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran. That’s well known. And it’s unfortunate.”

Additionally, there is also a video posted on that link where McCain discusses why he "misspoke."

I believe you've seen it whatever it was. I've not doubted your sincerity on this issue. And if McCain says he misspoke, then he probably did. If I wasn't on dialup right now, I'd check out the video, but I am. So you're going to have to take your own word for it for now.