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beer bacon
03-21-2008, 01:06 AM
We have all been arguing about Wright and Obama. We have mostly beewn looking at these comments in the context of what it means for Obama's campaign.

Many of us have also watched or listened to pundits exclaiming over how anti-American and just downright awful Wright was for saying such vile things, and how Obama should have tarred and feathered him on the spot. These fifteen second clips have been aired endlessly, and apparently none of these pundits have taken the time to search for any context.

Well, I recently was linked to some longer clips of Wright's that his inflammatory clips were a part of. I don't know how many minds this will change, and I don't even know if that is really the point of showing them. I am sure, for example, patteeu will take something much different from his viewing of clips than I did.

Even so, I think these clips of the actual sermons by Wright those comments were from will be useful for anyone that has taken Wright's comments and their impact on these elections seriously.

Anyways, watch them for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw

This first video is the one with the GD America lines. Of of Wright's major themes here was the unchanging and ever-loving God versus the rise and falls, both materially and morally, of Earthly governments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

This second one includes the "chickens have come to roost" line. A main focus is the errors of vengeance and cycles of violence and hatred.

Mr. Kotter
03-21-2008, 01:17 AM
I'm probably among a small minority of people: a caucasian man who spent 3-4 years attending a "black (Southern Baptist)" church."

I thought Obama's speech did as good a job as one could expect at addressing, and diffusing this "issue," however....it won't, and I don't think it can erase the issue entirely. Why?

Because most white folks, especially those who've never spent significant time in a "black" church....mistake theater, drama, and impassioned attempts to convey a larger "message" through....occasionally over-the-top and incendiary attention-getting methods and rhetoric....to drive home a point, for heart-felt religious convictions and values. It's the difference between the means and the end, IMO.

People who are accustomed to the direct, and IMO often boring and inane.....presentations of faith and religion, in more traditional "religious" settings, simply cannot imagine, let alone appreciate, such a method....to teaching the same end.

JMHO :shrug:

patteeu
03-21-2008, 07:15 AM
I'm probably among a small minority of people: a caucasian man who spent 3-4 years attending a "black (Southern Baptist)" church."

I thought Obama's speech did as good a job as one could expect at addressing, and diffusing this "issue," however....it won't, and I don't think it can erase the issue entirely. Why?

Because most white folks, especially those who've never spent significant time in a "black" church....mistake theater, drama, and impassioned attempts to convey a larger "message" through....occasionally over-the-top and incendiary attention-getting methods and rhetoric....to drive home a point, for heart-felt religious convictions and values. It's the difference between the means and the end, IMO.

People who are accustomed to the direct, and IMO often boring and inane.....presentations of faith and religion, in more traditional "religious" settings, simply cannot imagine, let alone appreciate, such a method....to teaching the same end.

JMHO :shrug:

Obama himself has denounced his pastor's statements as being wrong and divisive. You can't say that it's simply a case of misunderstanding by whites who aren't familiar with black churches. Perhaps, if what you say is true about how typical this sort of thing is, people who have spent a lot of time in black churches have become desensitized to wrong and divisive sermons. :shrug:

patteeu
03-21-2008, 07:17 AM
I can't watch the youtube clips right now, Beerbacon, but do either one of them provide context to Wrights statements about the US government creating AIDS to commit genocide on people of color?

penguinz
03-21-2008, 07:19 AM
Obama himself has denounced his pastor's statements as being wrong and divisive. You can't say that it's simply a case of misunderstanding by whites who aren't familiar with black churches. Perhaps, if what you say is true about how typical this sort of thing is, people who have spent a lot of time in black churches have become desensitized to wrong and divisive sermons. :shrug:
He never said that. What Kotter said was that a black church is a much different environment. The pastors tend to be much more animated and theatrical. They tend to get caught in the moment and will feed off of the people's energy. A white church is usually calm.

dirk digler
03-21-2008, 07:45 AM
Wow beer bacon I was actually going to post this exact thread stating that Fox News has duped us all.

In the video where he was saying the chickens have come home to roost he was quoting a white Ambassador who appeared on Fox News

In the second video he is stating that all races have been hurt by governments not just the USA. He then went on about how the Indians and the Africans had been the most hurt by the USA and that is why he said god damn america

penguinz
03-21-2008, 07:48 AM
Wow beer bacon I was actually going to post this exact thread stating that Fox News has duped us all.

In the video where he was saying the chickens have come home to roost he was quoting a white Ambassador who appeared on Fox and he was quoting him almost verbatim. LMAO

In the second video he is stating that all races have been hurt by governments not just the USA. He then went on about how the Indians and the Africans had been the most hurt by the USA and that is why he said god damn america

We need to get these videos out and we need to contact all the major media to start giving full context to what this man said because it has been majorly distorted

But Denise says otherwise. :p

stevieray
03-21-2008, 07:49 AM
We need to get these videos out and we need to contact all the major media to start giving full context to what this man said because it has been majorly distorted

ROFL

dirk digler
03-21-2008, 07:52 AM
ROFL

Laugh now stevie but he is quoting someone who appeared on Fox News that said pretty much the same thing.

Maybe you need to educate yourself because I didn't like the comments either but now this is not right if his words have been distorted

dirk digler
03-21-2008, 08:03 AM
Just one instance


One of the most controversial statements in this sermon was when he mentioned “chickens coming home to roost.” He was actually quoting a former Ambassador, Edward Peck, who was speaking on FOX NEWS. That’s what he told the audience. He was quoting Peck as saying that America’s foreign policy has put the nation in peril.
Wright then went on to outline the instances the nation was involved in terrorism, beginning with the Native Americans - taking it from them; took Africans for slavery; then went on to talk about bombing Grenada, Panama, Qadafhi’s home, bombed Iraq and killed unarmed civilians, bombed a plant in Sudan that killed innocent people, bombed Hiroshima,…”and we never batted an eye,” he said.
“We are indignant that the stuff that we have done overseas is brought back into our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost. Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that y’all, not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people we have wounded don’t have the military capability we have. but they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them. And we need to come to grips with that.”

stevieray
03-21-2008, 08:03 AM
Laugh now stevie but when he is quoting almost verbatim someone who appeared on Fox News and this guy is the one that said the chickens have come home to roost then those aren't his words.

Maybe you need to educate yourself because I didn't like the comments either but now this is not right if his words have been distorted

educate myself? would that include calling women a **** when they don't support my candidate?

tiptap
03-21-2008, 08:09 AM
Laugh now stevie but when he is quoting almost verbatim someone who appeared on Fox News and this guy is the one that said the chickens have come home to roost then those aren't his words.

Maybe you need to educate yourself because I didn't like the comments either but now this is not right if his words have been distorted

It is nice to see you coming out of the doldrums of a "Kidney Punch" in the political game. I like to remind everyone that about the same number of people voted in primaries for either of the Democratic Candidates as for the total that voted for all the Republican Candidates.

It distorts the focus this far out to consider that this kind of politics will or can have the same impact during the regular election. And I am on record now that Obama should forget his "pledge" to use only Public Funding in the National Election should he win the nomination. I want the ability to answer in spades of advertising, any crud the Republican smear sets want to focus on. I believe in freedom of speech and the right of the individual to expect his political contribution to be spent freely on his candidate without restraint.

dirk digler
03-21-2008, 08:09 AM
educate myself? would that include calling women a **** when they don't support my candidate?

Are you talking about saying Hillary was never called a ******?

I just watched the full video of that one as well and he was talking about Barack being a black man and he gave like 10 examples of what black people go through like sitting in the back of the bus, segregation and all that and then he dropped and Hillary has never been called a ****** so she doesn't know what it is like to be black.

Now I don't think using the word ****** is appropriate in church but what he said was correct

Also let me temper my words to say that I need to see the full context of the AIDS one that patteeu referenced and I believe there is one other controversial statement that he made but I think it obvious from the 3 that I have seen what he said was much ado about nothing and caused alot of faux outrage

beer bacon
03-21-2008, 08:16 AM
Obama himself has denounced his pastor's statements as being wrong and divisive. You can't say that it's simply a case of misunderstanding by whites who aren't familiar with black churches. Perhaps, if what you say is true about how typical this sort of thing is, people who have spent a lot of time in black churches have become desensitized to wrong and divisive sermons. :shrug:

Frankly, I think what Wright said in the two videos I posted isn't hate speech. I also think what he said hasn't been portrayed accurately, and that is why you haven't seen a single pundit on any of the 24 hours networks actually doing any commentary on the sermons that included Wright's "GD America" or "chickens have come to roost" quotes.

The fact that these fifteen second clips were being played nonstop on the 24 hours news networks for about a week, and no one actually bothered to do an investigation of where these comments were actually coming from shows a great deal of laziness and incompetence on the part of the 24 news networks.

Anyways, I would just like you to watch it and than tell me if you think news pundits should have bothered at some point in this whole controversy reporting on the larger context of what Wright was saying.

I don't expect you to change your mind after seeing the videos, but I would hope that most reasonable people would agree that our news media has done a disservice by not investigating the context of Wright's statements.

Also, about Wright saying the government is responsible for AIDS, I haven't seen the actual quote or its context. I have only seen people paraphrasing it. I have watched some of Wright's sermons, and most of what I have seen is pretty intellectually reasoned, and it makes me wonder if the AIDS comment wasn't hyperbole.

I know some people believe that the government wronged our country by largely doing nothing about AIDS even up into the 90s, while many of the spiritual advisers of high ranking government officials preached that AIDS was God's punishment on homosexuals etc.. I also know that some people became more distrustful of our government after things like the Tuskegee Experiments came out.

beer bacon
03-21-2008, 08:17 AM
educate myself? would that include calling women a **** when they don't support my candidate?

Actually he said that Hillary had never been called a ******.

Sully
03-21-2008, 08:20 AM
Actually he said that Hillary had never been called a ******.

I think he's talking about Drik's replies to meme.

Baby Lee
03-21-2008, 08:23 AM
He never said that. What Kotter said was that a black church is a much different environment. The pastors tend to be much more animated and theatrical. They tend to get caught in the moment and will feed off of the people's energy. A white church is usually calm.

It's Def Chiefsplanet Jam.

White folk be like this 'deet dah deet dah deee!!'

Black folk be like this 'bow chicka wowt woww.'

Baby Lee
03-21-2008, 08:25 AM
Are you talking about saying Hillary was never called a ******?

I just watched the full video of that one as well and he was talking about Barack being a black man and he gave like 10 examples of what black people go through like sitting in the back of the bus, segregation and all that and then he dropped and Hillary has never been called a ****** so she doesn't know what it is like to be black.

Now I don't think using the word ****** is appropriate in church but what he said was correct

Also let me temper my words to say that I need to see the full context of the AIDS one that patteeu referenced and I believe there is one other controversial statement that he made but I think it obvious from the 3 that I have seen what he said was much ado about nothing and caused alot of faux outrage

I think he was referring to someone [dunno if it was you] calling Mememe a coont.

patteeu
03-21-2008, 08:31 AM
He never said that. What Kotter said was that a black church is a much different environment. The pastors tend to be much more animated and theatrical. They tend to get caught in the moment and will feed off of the people's energy. A white church is usually calm.

Either he was addressing the issue of Pastor Wright's "wrong and divisive" statements or he was talking about characteristics of black churches that have little or no relevance to this discussion. I'll let him speak for himself.

beer bacon
03-21-2008, 08:32 AM
Either he was addressing the issue of Pastor Wright's "wrong and divisive" statements or he was talking about characteristics of black churches that have little or no relevance to this discussion. I'll let him speak for himself.

Have you watched the videos?

patteeu
03-21-2008, 08:32 AM
Wow beer bacon I was actually going to post this exact thread stating that Fox News has duped us all.

In the video where he was saying the chickens have come home to roost he was quoting a white Ambassador who appeared on Fox and he was quoting him almost verbatim. LMAO

In the second video he is stating that all races have been hurt by governments not just the USA. He then went on about how the Indians and the Africans had been the most hurt by the USA and that is why he said god damn america

How redeeming. He wants G*d to damn America on behalf of all races not just blacks. :rolleyes:

beer bacon
03-21-2008, 08:33 AM
I think he was referring to someone [dunno if it was you] calling Mememe a coont.

One way to stop all the bickering on Politics Planet would be to ban everyone that has thrown curse words in Meme's direction. I don't think there would be anybody left. She is a very disagreeable person that brings out the worst in people.

patteeu
03-21-2008, 08:38 AM
Have you watched the videos?

No. Right now, I'm on a dialup connection.

dirk digler
03-21-2008, 08:41 AM
I think he's talking about Drik's replies to meme.

Ahh I get it.

I admitted I was wrong and apologized in that thread. I will apologize again to Denise because what I said was wrong.

dirk digler
03-21-2008, 08:46 AM
How redeeming. He wants G*d to damn America on behalf of all races not just blacks. :rolleyes:

At least he is inclusive instead of just pointing out what America did to African Americans.

beer bacon
03-21-2008, 08:52 AM
Here is another anti-American claim from a black-supremacist preacher. Can anyone guess who made these divisive claims?

"God didn't call America to engage in a senseless, unjust war. . . . And we are criminals in that war. We've committed more war crimes almost than any nation in the world, and I'm going to continue to say it. And we won't stop it because of our pride and our arrogance as a nation. But God has a way of even putting nations in their place."

beer bacon
03-21-2008, 09:17 AM
This was posted on Anderson Cooper 360's blog on cnn.com:

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/

The full story behind Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s 9/11 sermon
Posted: 10:09 AM ET

As this whole sordid episode regarding the sermons of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright has played out over the last week, I wanted to understand what he ACTUALLY said in this speech. I’ve been saying all week on CNN that context is important, and I just wanted to know what the heck is going on.

I have now actually listened to the sermon Rev. Wright gave after September 11 titled, “The Day of Jerusalem’s Fall.” It was delivered on Sept. 16, 2001.
ALT TEXT

One of the most controversial statements in this sermon was when he mentioned “chickens coming home to roost.” He was actually quoting Edward Peck, former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq and deputy director of President Reagan’s terrorism task force, who was speaking on FOX News. That’s what he told the congregation.

He was quoting Peck as saying that America’s foreign policy has put the nation in peril:

“We took this country by terror away from the Sioux, the Apache, Arikara, the Comanche, the Arapaho, the Navajo. Terrorism.

“We took Africans away from their country to build our way of ease and kept them enslaved and living in fear. Terrorism.

“We bombed Grenada and killed innocent civilians, babies, non-military personnel.

“We bombed the black civilian community of Panama with stealth bombers and killed unarmed teenage and toddlers, pregnant mothers and hard working fathers.

“We bombed Qaddafi’s home, and killed his child. Blessed are they who bash your children’s head against the rock.

“We bombed Iraq. We killed unarmed civilians trying to make a living. We bombed a plant in Sudan to pay back for the attack on our embassy, killed hundreds of hard working people, mothers and fathers who left home to go that day not knowing that they’d never get back home.

“We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye.

“Kids playing in the playground. Mothers picking up children after school. Civilians, not soldiers, people just trying to make it day by day.

“We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff that we have done overseas is now brought right back into our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost.

“Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that y’all, not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people we have wounded don’t have the military capability we have. But they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them. And we need to come to grips with that.”

He went on to describe seeing the photos of the aftermath of 9/11 because he was in Newark, N.J., when the planes struck. After turning on the TV and seeing the second plane slam into one of the twin towers, he spoke passionately about what if you never got a chance to say hello to your family again.

“What is the state of your family?” he asked.

And then he told his congregation that he loved them and asked the church to tell each other they loved themselves.

His sermon thesis:

1. This is a time for self-examination of ourselves and our families.

2. This is a time for social transformation (then he went on to say they won’t put me on PBS or national cable for what I’m about to say. Talk about prophetic!)

“We have got to change the way we have been doing things as a society,” he said.

Wright then said we can’t stop messing over people and thinking they can’t touch us. He said we may need to declare war on racism, injustice, and greed, instead of war on other countries.

“Maybe we need to declare war on AIDS. In five minutes the Congress found $40 billion to rebuild New York and the families that died in sudden death, do you think we can find the money to make medicine available for people who are dying a slow death? Maybe we need to declare war on the nation’s healthcare system that leaves the nation’s poor with no health coverage? Maybe we need to declare war on the mishandled educational system and provide quality education for everybody, every citizen, based on their ability to learn, not their ability to pay. This is a time for social transformation.”

3. This is time to tell God thank you for all that he has provided and that he gave him and others another chance to do His will.

By the way, nowhere in this sermon did he said “God damn America.” I’m not sure which sermon that came from.

This doesn’t explain anything away, nor does it absolve Wright of using the N-word, but what it does do is add an accurate perspective to this conversation.

The point that I have always made as a journalist is that our job is to seek the truth, and not the partial truth.

I am also listening to the other sermons delivered by Rev. Wright that have been the subject of controversy.

And let me be clear: Where I believe he was wrong and not justified in what he said based upon the facts, I will say so. But where the facts support his argument, that will also be said.

So stay tuned.

- Roland S. Martin, CNN Contributor

patteeu
03-21-2008, 09:29 AM
I don't see how this "context" makes Wrights comments much more appealing. He may have been quoting someone else when he said some of these things, but he was essentially quoting them for truth as he sees it. He didn't repudiate these quotes did he?

dirk digler
03-21-2008, 09:40 AM
I don't see how this "context" makes Wrights comments much more appealing. He may have been quoting someone else when he said some of these things, but he was essentially quoting them for truth as he sees it. He didn't repudiate these quotes did he?

If you look at the context of the overall sermon and look at him pointing out what Ambassador Peck said on Fox this IMO is much ado about nothing.

Also it has been reported that this sermon happened right after 9/11 but from the transcripts of Ambassador Peck appearing on Fox he didn't appear until October 10, 2001

patteeu
03-21-2008, 10:31 AM
If you look at the context of the overall sermon and look at him pointing out what Ambassador Peck said on Fox this IMO is much ado about nothing.

Also it has been reported that this sermon happened right after 9/11 but from the transcripts of Ambassador Peck appearing on Fox he didn't appear until October 10, 2001

I'll watch the video when I get a chance, but you're not doing anything with this post to suggest why I'm wrong when I point out that he's quoting Peck because he believes in the truth of Peck's comments. How does quoting someone for truth distance you in any meaningful way from the comments you are quoting?

October 10, 2001 is less than a month after 9/11. It's 3 days after the retaliation for 9/11, that you've said in the past you agree with, began.

bkkcoh
03-21-2008, 10:34 AM
So in some context, the thoughts and beliefs of the KKK are acceptable? :hmmm:

NewChief
03-21-2008, 10:37 AM
So in some context, the thoughts and beliefs of the KKK are acceptable? :hmmm:

Get back to me when Wright lynches someone.

bkkcoh
03-21-2008, 10:41 AM
Get back to me when Wright lynches someone.

But there have been a lot of situations in which it is worse to actually say something like that then to do it.

The comments about Tiger Woods by the female, and a friend of Tiger's, stating that some of the golfers should lynch Tiger in order to have a chance. You would have thought that an actual lynching would have taken place.

What about the hate that the black panther's leader is spouting off? There shouldn't be a double standard like that.

:banghead:

HonestChieffan
03-21-2008, 10:47 AM
If one works hard enough, can you justify anything based on context? Is there any vlue in right and wrong?

bkkcoh
03-21-2008, 10:48 AM
If one works hard enough, can you justify anything based on context? Is there any vlue in right and wrong?

Very well said and very true.

:toast:

keg in kc
03-21-2008, 11:09 AM
I'm probably among a small minority of people: a caucasian man who spent 3-4 years attending a "black (Southern Baptist)" church." I'm sort of in the same boat. Never attended a black church, but my ex-wife was black, and 6 years with her and her family gave me an insight into race relations and the (mis)perceptions that both ethnic groups have that I don't think a lot of white americans have, as well as generalized personality differences between the cultural groups (the 'sermonizing').

It's going off on a bit of a tangent, but I believe part of the reason this is such a hotbutton issue is in no small part due to the fact that racism is alive and well in the United States. It's more under the surface than in the past, but it's there none the less. And when I say "racism" I'm not talking about caucasions against other races, I'm talking about everyone. Much of black culture, in my experience, is extremely racially divisive. I don't have direct experience, but I understand that Latin-American cultures are the same way.

It's difficult to verbalize the concept I have in mind, but I believe that the emphasis is so often placed on the unique cultural origin (i.e. "African" American, "European" or "Caucasian" American, "Mexican" American, and so forth) that there's no centralized sense of being an "American". Everyone seems to mingle among their own subgroup, and that can make it extremely difficult to coexist or integrate or even to understand. And I think that's where the racism that I perceive as simmering under the surface everywhere comes from.

I don't know how anyone can change that, to try to truly intigrate American culture, nor do I even know if anyone should. Because the freedom that makes America what it is (thoeretically speaking, at least) is the same freedom that grants people the right to not dive into the melting pot if they so choose.

patteeu
03-21-2008, 11:20 AM
So in some context, the thoughts and beliefs of the KKK are acceptable? :hmmm:

Only if you're quoting a real life KKK member apparently.

dirk digler
03-21-2008, 04:53 PM
I'll watch the video when I get a chance, but you're not doing anything with this post to suggest why I'm wrong when I point out that he's quoting Peck because he believes in the truth of Peck's comments. How does quoting someone for truth distance you in any meaningful way from the comments you are quoting?

October 10, 2001 is less than a month after 9/11. It's 3 days after the retaliation for 9/11, that you've said in the past you agree with, began.

I didn't say Peck was telling the truth all I am saying is that Rev Wright is just relaying, in his own words, what Peck was saying and what Peck was saying is hardly anti-American or America bashing.

My point about the date was it seemed from every talking head was that Rev Wright made this sermon on the Sunday after 9/11 which wasn't the case.

jAZ
03-21-2008, 05:15 PM
Wright might as well have just quoted the CIA directly....

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011015/johnson

"Blowback" is a CIA term first used in March 1954 in a recently declassified report on the 1953 operation to overthrow the government of Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran. It is a metaphor for the unintended consequences of the US government's international activities that have been kept secret from the American people. The CIA's fears that there might ultimately be some blowback from its egregious interference in the affairs of Iran were well founded. Installing the Shah in power brought twenty-five years of tyranny and repression to the Iranian people and elicited the Ayatollah Khomeini's revolution. The staff of the American embassy in Teheran was held hostage for more than a year. This misguided "covert operation" of the US government helped convince many capable people throughout the Islamic world that the United States was an implacable enemy.

patteeu
03-21-2008, 05:49 PM
I didn't say Peck was telling the truth all I am saying is that Rev Wright is just relaying, in his own words, what Peck was saying and what Peck was saying is hardly anti-American or America bashing.

My point about the date was it seemed from every talking head was that Rev Wright made this sermon on the Sunday after 9/11 which wasn't the case.

Not you, Wright. Wright is quoting Peck for truth is he not? And if you agree that he is, is that not effectively the same as saying it yourself?

BTW, I just watched both of the OP videos and I'm even more annoyed by Rev. Wright's anti-Americanism than I was before. Even worse, it's pretty clear to me that what he's doing in the first video is, at the very least, incitement to racism if it is not racist itself. Obama claims that we need to get past race resentments, but his pastor is actively encouraging the race resentments of his audience. And Obama sees this guy as an inspiration? That's a disconnect between Obama's campaign trail message and his 20 years of action, IMO.

How can any church lose it's tax exempt status if TUCC still has theirs? I don't think penchief could rant against the Bush administration any more strongly than he did. And preaching that the 2000 election was stolen? Is that a service to his congregation or is that just another attempt to drive a wedge deeper into the divisions on our society? How can any Obama fan who supports the candidate because they thought he was post-partisan, post-racial, and post-political still support him after being exposed to his 20 year spiritual guide, friend, and mentor? There must be a healthy dose of denial in that koolaid.

dirk digler
03-21-2008, 05:51 PM
Interesting


Meet the man who inspired Reverend Jeremiah Wright's now famous tirade about America's foreign policy inciting the terrorist attacks of September 11.


His name is Ambassador Edward Peck. And he is a retired, white, career U.S. diplomat who served 32-years in the U.S. Foreign Service and was chief of the U.S. mission to Iraq under Jimmy Carter -- hardly the black-rage image with which Wright has been stigmatized.


In fact, when Wright took the pulpit to give his post-9/11 address -- which has since become boiled down to a five second sound bite about "America's chickens coming home to roost" -- he prefaced his remarks as a "faith footnote," an indication that he was deviating from his sermon.


"I heard Ambassador Peck on an interview yesterday," Wright declared. "He was on Fox News. This is a white man and he was upsetting the Fox News commentators to no end. He pointed out, a white man, an ambassador, that what Malcolm X said when he got silenced by Elijah Muhammad was in fact true: America's chickens are coming home to roost."


Wright then went on to list more than a few U.S. foreign policy endeavors that, by the tone of his voice and manner of his expression, he viewed as more or less deplorable. This included, as has been demonstrated in the endless loop of clips from his sermon, bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki and nuking "far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye."
"Violence begets violence," Wright said, "hatred begets hatred, and terrorism begets terrorism."


And then he concluded by putting the comments on Peck's shoulders: "A white ambassador said that yall, not a black militant, not a reverend who preaches about racism, an ambassador whose eyes are wide open and is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice... the ambassador said that the people we have wounded don't have the military capability we have, but they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them... let me stop my faith footnote right there."

So it seems that while Wright did believe American held some responsibility for 9/11, his views, which have been described as radically outside the political mainstream, were actually influenced by a career foreign policy official.
Who is Peck? The ambassador, who has offered controversial criticism (http://hotair.com/archives/2006/07/27/video-former-ambassador-ed-peck-defends-hezbollah/) of Israeli policy in the West Bank but also warned against the Iraq War, was lecturing on a cruise ship and was unavailable for comment. But officials at Peck's former organization, the Council for the National Interest, a non-profit group that advocates reducing Israel's influence on U.S. Middle East policy, offered descriptions of the man.
"Peck is very outspoken," said Eugene Bird, who now heads CNI. "He is also very good at making phrases that have a resonance with the American people. When he came off of that Fox News, a few days later he said they would never invite me back again."
And what, exactly, did Peck say in that Fox News interview that inspired Wright's words?
Here are some quotes from an appearance the Ambassador made on the network (http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/video-jeremiah-wright-chickens-coming-home-to-roost-september-11-full-sermon/#more-2653) on October 11, 2001, which may or may not have been the segment Wright was referring to. On the show, Peck said he thought it was illogical to tie Saddam Hussein to the terrorist attacks on 9/11, and that while the then-Iraqi leader had "some very sound and logical reasons not to like [the United States]," he and Osama bin Laden had no other ties.


From there, Peck went on to ascribe motives for what prompted the 9/11 attacks. "Stopping the economic embargo and bombings of Iraq," he said, "things to which Osama bin Laden has alluded as the kinds of things he doesn't like. He doesn't think it's appropriate for the United States to be doing, from his perspective, all the terrible things that he sees us as having been doing, the same way Saddam Hussein feels. So from that perspective, they have a commonality of interests. But they also have a deeply divergent view of the role of Islam in government, which would be a problem."

Sully
03-21-2008, 05:55 PM
I agree that, if Wright's or any other minister's sermons are political in nature, especially to the point of "campaigning" for any candidate (which I think Wright was doing for Obama), then they should lose their tax-exempt status.

beer bacon
03-21-2008, 06:02 PM
I agree that, if Wright's or any other minister's sermons are political in nature, especially to the point of "campaigning" for any candidate (which I think Wright was doing for Obama), then they should lose their tax-exempt status.

Sooooo, how many African American churches are going to lose their tax-exempt status?

dirk digler
03-21-2008, 06:17 PM
Not you, Wright. Wright is quoting Peck for truth is he not? And if you agree that he is, is that not effectively the same as saying it yourself?

BTW, I just watched both of the OP videos and I'm even more annoyed by Rev. Wright's anti-Americanism than I was before. Even worse, it's pretty clear to me that what he's doing in the first video is, at the very least, incitement to racism if it is not racist itself. Obama claims that we need to get past race resentments, but his pastor is actively encouraging the race resentments of his audience. And Obama sees this guy as an inspiration? That's a disconnect between Obama's campaign trail message and his 20 years of action, IMO.

How can any church lose it's tax exempt status if TUCC still has theirs? I don't think penchief could rant against the Bush administration any more strongly than he did. And preaching that the 2000 election was stolen? Is that a service to his congregation or is that just another attempt to drive a wedge deeper into the divisions on our society? How can any Obama fan who supports the candidate because they thought he was post-partisan, post-racial, and post-political still support him after being exposed to his 20 year spiritual guide, friend, and mentor? There must be a healthy dose of denial in that koolaid.

I am sure Wright agrees with the premise of what Peck was talking about.

As far as your video critique I went back and watched it again just to make sure I wasn't missing anything and nope I wasn't. There was no incitement to racism. Railing against the government isn't racism.

He said the British empire failed, the Russian government failed, the Japanese government failed, the German government failed, and the US government failed when it came to dealing with the Indians, the government failed it when dealing with Japanese-Americans during WWII, and the government failed in dealing with Africans. He then said not God Bless America but god damn America for treating its citizens as less than humans and god damn America as long as it keeps acting like it is god and Supreme.

Now I don't like the fact that he said god damn America but if you look at the totality of that paragraph what is wrong or incorrect?

Sully
03-21-2008, 06:40 PM
Sooooo, how many African American churches are going to lose their tax-exempt status?

I'd be willing to bet the number is equal to that of "white" churches.

***SPRAYER
08-24-2008, 03:10 PM
Frankly, I think what Wright said in the two videos I posted isn't hate speech. I also think what he said hasn't been portrayed accurately, and that is why you haven't seen a single pundit on any of the 24 hours networks actually doing any commentary on the sermons that included Wright's "GD America" or "chickens have come to roost" quotes.

The fact that these fifteen second clips were being played nonstop on the 24 hours news networks for about a week, and no one actually bothered to do an investigation of where these comments were actually coming from shows a great deal of laziness and incompetence on the part of the 24 news networks.

Anyways, I would just like you to watch it and than tell me if you think news pundits should have bothered at some point in this whole controversy reporting on the larger context of what Wright was saying.

I don't expect you to change your mind after seeing the videos, but I would hope that most reasonable people would agree that our news media has done a disservice by not investigating the context of Wright's statements.

Also, about Wright saying the government is responsible for AIDS, I haven't seen the actual quote or its context. I have only seen people paraphrasing it. I have watched some of Wright's sermons, and most of what I have seen is pretty intellectually reasoned, and it makes me wonder if the AIDS comment wasn't hyperbole.

I know some people believe that the government wronged our country by largely doing nothing about AIDS even up into the 90s, while many of the spiritual advisers of high ranking government officials preached that AIDS was God's punishment on homosexuals etc.. I also know that some people became more distrustful of our government after things like the Tuskegee Experiments came out.

What a jackass!

ROFL

beer bacon
08-24-2008, 03:11 PM
bump

***SPRAYER
08-24-2008, 03:14 PM
bump


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