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KCChiefsFan88
03-24-2008, 11:52 AM
I still doubt the Chiefs will take Ryan, but this is an interesting rationale for why they might and this is totally in line with the piece of garbage that Herm is.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/03/21/mmqb/1.html

Kansas City. Boston College QB Matt Ryan. Just a hunch, though they'll have trouble passing on Michigan offensive tackle Jake Long.

Strange thing here. At the combine, Carl Peterson told me the Chiefs loved Ryan, but there was no way they could take him because of their needs elsewhere. (Offensive line, I'm guessing.) Then they sent half the front office to his workout the other day at BC. Methinks Carl does not want to be the man to pass on the guy he thinks will be a franchise player. The other thing this does is buy coach Herman Edwards one more year of rebuilding. Even if the Chiefs go 5-11 this year, they couldn't whack Edwards until after they got a really good look at Ryan.

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 12:00 PM
I Even if the Chiefs go 5-11 this year, they couldn't whack Edwards until after they got a really good look at Ryan.



I for one, hope the Chiefs do draft Ryan if hes still there.

But why couldnt Herm be fired?? Other organizations do it all the time. Only the Chiefs...sigh..

CupidStunt
03-24-2008, 12:03 PM
Hopefully 5-11 is enough to whack Vermeilfan88.

el borracho
03-24-2008, 12:03 PM
Ha! If we take a QB in the 1st we will not win 5 games. As a consolation, I guess that means we can draft Oher with the #1 pick in the 2009 draft.

suds79
03-24-2008, 12:05 PM
To me is sounds like that's more of a ploy by Carl to save his own a$$ rather than Herms.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. Regardless of how it effects the timeline on rebuilding (we're going to stink next year anyways), if Matt Ryan is the highest guy on their board when they pick at 5th then they should take him. If he's not, then pass.

CosmicPal
03-24-2008, 12:05 PM
King's an idiot.

HolmeZz
03-24-2008, 12:08 PM
I'd rather that than Clady.

StcChief
03-24-2008, 12:10 PM
Peter King is an idiot... Ryan won't be there,

SLAG
03-24-2008, 12:13 PM
King's an idiot.



King's AND idiot

get it right

Mecca
03-24-2008, 12:14 PM
Peter King is an idiot... Ryan won't be there,

If Atlanta doesn't take him he's going to be.....it's more conceivable than I think some realize.

crazycoffey
03-24-2008, 12:14 PM
King's an idiot.



so true.....

Frazod
03-24-2008, 12:14 PM
It doesn't matter who we have at QB if he spends the entire game RUNNING FOR HIS LIFE.

These goddamn idiots better concentrate on the line.

:cuss:

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 12:14 PM
7. I think I still haven't figured out how Brian Brohm could be rated a top-10 pick in 2007 and drop to second-roundville in 2008 after having completed 65 percent of his throws as a senior, with 30 touchdowns and 12 interceptions while playing for a new coach. Explain that to me. Someone. Anyone.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/03/21/mmqb/2.html

If Ryan is gone or they pass on him, i think the Chiefs would try and target Brohm in the 2nd. Either way, the writing is on the wall for the Chiefs: They know they cant rely on Croyle 100%.

InChiefsHell
03-24-2008, 12:16 PM
They will not draft Ryan. The opening video montage on kcchiefs.com clearly shows that Brody will lead the Chiefs this season. Do you really think they are going to go to all the trouble to make that video just to change QB's? It would make them look all dumb and stuff...

Sure-Oz
03-24-2008, 12:16 PM
I'd rather get that DT in the 1st if there or best quality...

2nd round if be fine with Brohm

dj56dt58
03-24-2008, 12:16 PM
I would like to draft Ryan then get Oher next year...that would be best for the franchise imo...

Brock
03-24-2008, 12:17 PM
This team sucks across the board. It doesn't matter who they take. My own preference is Dorsey, but whatever.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 12:18 PM
They will not draft Ryan. The opening video montage on kcchiefs.com clearly shows that Brody will lead the Chiefs this season. Do you really think they are going to go to all the trouble to make that video just to change QB's? It would make them look all dumb and stuff...

Ryan probably wouldn't start next year even if he was the pick, that way they can protect their investment and let Croyle get killed instead.

Kinda funny to see people flip out when you know you can address your Oline without using your first pick on it.

InChiefsHell
03-24-2008, 12:19 PM
Ryan probably wouldn't start next year even if he was the pick, that way they can protect their investment and let Croyle get killed instead.

Kinda funny to see people flip out when you know you can address your Oline without using your first pick on it.

I hope the sarcasm came through in my post...:(

chasedude
03-24-2008, 12:20 PM
It doesn't matter who we have at QB if he spends the entire game RUNNING FOR HIS LIFE.

These goddamn idiots better concentrate on the line.

:cuss:

My thinking exactly! Why grab him in the 5th if he's still there. It'll be a waste because there's no one on the front line to protect him. It'll be just another Chiefs QB watching the game on his butt in the grass :(

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 12:21 PM
Kinda funny to see people flip out when you know you can address your Oline without using your first pick on it.


Kinda funny, the fanbase would flip out if Kings scenario goes down. We pass on Long to take Ryan.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 12:22 PM
I hope the sarcasm came through in my post...:(

Oh I know, that's just my response for anyone who's like, But but he'll get killed we need a line!

Mecca
03-24-2008, 12:24 PM
Kinda funny, the fanbase would flip out if Kings scenario goes down. We pass on Long to take Ryan.

I personally don't think you should ever take a OT with a top 5 pick unless he's one of your only needs, he's absolute certain to be a great player, and has very few questions...

HemiEd
03-24-2008, 12:24 PM
It doesn't matter who we have at QB if he spends the entire game RUNNING FOR HIS LIFE.

These goddamn idiots better concentrate on the line.

:cuss:

Exactly, that has never changed.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 12:25 PM
Who says you can't take lineman with some of the other picks though? They don't HAVE to take a OT with their first pick.

sedated
03-24-2008, 12:30 PM
I personally don't think you should ever take a OT with a top 5 pick unless ... he's absolute certain to be a great player, and has very few questions...

I figured that would be the case with any top 5 pick.

HemiEd
03-24-2008, 12:31 PM
Who says you can't take lineman with some of the other picks though? They don't HAVE to take a OT with their first pick.

No, but they should pick several of them. I would have no problem with not taking an OT with the first pick, as long as they take a DT. The OL needs to be built, and the middle of the DL is still an unknown.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 12:33 PM
No, but they should pick several of them. I would have no problem with not taking an OT with the first pick, as long as they take a DT. The OL needs to be built, and the middle of the DL is still an unknown.

I can say that for basically every position on the team....Do you honestly think the Chiefs should be going "hey we gotta take a OT or a DT we're good everywhere else"?

Because frankly they can use players at every position.

Dylan
03-24-2008, 12:33 PM
Further down Peter King writes:



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/sports/football/15lawyer.html?ref=football

Dylan
03-24-2008, 12:34 PM
ball

King_Chief_Fan
03-24-2008, 12:42 PM
No, but they should pick several of them. I would have no problem with not taking an OT with the first pick, as long as they take a DT. The OL needs to be built, and the middle of the DL is still an unknown.

Croyle is an unknown also. How can a guy be on a team 2 years and still be an unknown? The Chiefs have yet to be confident in starting him until the train already wrecked. Based on what they saw in his 6 games is nothing to be content about. Blame in on the oline, yup, blame some on Croyle, why not?
I am all for taking Ryan at 5 if he is there. Chiefs will pick up OT's later.

Simply Red
03-24-2008, 12:44 PM
I find Chief's news non-interesting as of late. Sorry, just being honest.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 12:44 PM
Most people here think Croyle is "the guy" just because.

Micjones
03-24-2008, 12:45 PM
I'd take Ryan if Jake Long was off the board.

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 12:46 PM
Most people here think Croyle is "the guy" just because.

Hes young and hes got an arm! Hes the man by default!

Mecca
03-24-2008, 12:46 PM
Obviously Matt Light is more important than Tom Brady...

Chiefnj2
03-24-2008, 12:47 PM
I personally don't think you should ever take a OT with a top 5 pick unless he's one of your only needs, he's absolute certain to be a great player, and has very few questions...

Who's on your list of players that are "certain to be a great player"?

Micjones
03-24-2008, 12:48 PM
Obviously Matt Light is more important than Tom Brady...

We'll need both.
Can't undersell the importance of good protection.

Demonpenz
03-24-2008, 12:49 PM
Hey frazod we had good lines but shitty qb's before. I am not saying ryan is good, but if a solid qb I would rather have that. We had good Olines all through the 90's but shit qb's

CupidStunt
03-24-2008, 12:49 PM
Mecca holds the trademark for a strawman argument.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 12:50 PM
Who's on your list of players that are "certain to be a great player"?

I'm sorry I don't want to be Arizona who paid Levi Brown 60 million dollars when he isn't all that good.

Simply put to take a guy at that position that high he needs to be that much better than the other guys because OL is a position that is proven to pull good starters out of later rounds.

DaneMcCloud
03-24-2008, 12:50 PM
Take Ryan if he's there.

There are several offensive tackles and guards throughout the draft that can make an immediate impact and start the 2008 season.

The Chiefs aren't going anywhere this year so they'd better take the best available athlete at each draft spot because they need all the help and depth they can get.

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 12:50 PM
Every position plays its role but QB is the single most important position on any team.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 12:51 PM
Mecca holds the trademark for a strawman argument.

What else would you call "Well I'd only take the QB if the LT wasn't there"

blueballs
03-24-2008, 01:00 PM
#1 reason Peter KIng knows nothing about football
he still has to go by his porn name for the name recognition

suds79
03-24-2008, 01:04 PM
Every position plays its role but QB is the single most important position on any team.

Exactly. And that should help determine your draft board by a fair margin IMO.

So if Ryan is the BPA, take him.

Just because the Chiefs could possibly take Ryan in the 1st this year doesn't mean they can't fix the O-line. They absolutely have to draft well in the rest of the rounds for this team to begin to turn it around.

TrebMaxx
03-24-2008, 01:18 PM
All draft picks are a crap shoot. I won't be bothered by who we take with the first as long as it is not classified as a reach which the Chief's FO has a history of doing. I am not sold on Croyle being the QBOTF either. I know he was dealt a bad hand with the turds on the O-line, but he really didn't show me much in his starts, I think he is injury prone and I don't think just having a strong arm is sufficient to be a NFL QB. If its Ryan with the Rnd 1 pick then so be it. I don't think he would be a reach. Could he be a flop, yes, but any draft pick can be a flop no matter where they are picked.

gblowfish
03-24-2008, 01:19 PM
The only thing on the Chiefs mind the next three years is stadium rennovation. They don't care about winning until 4-5 years from now.

Chiefnj2
03-24-2008, 01:23 PM
Coming out of college who was better Quinn or Ryan?

If you say Quinn or that they are about even, then why would you take Ryan with a top 15 pick?

alanm
03-24-2008, 01:24 PM
It doesn't matter who we have at QB if he spends the entire game RUNNING FOR HIS LIFE.

These goddamn idiots better concentrate on the line.

:cuss:
Yes.. The defensive line. :D

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 01:27 PM
The only thing on the Chiefs mind the next three years is stadium rennovation. They don't care about winning until 4-5 years from now.

If thats true, then the Qb pick would make sense. Most young QB's dont fully "blossum" until year 3 or 4.

eazyb81
03-24-2008, 01:29 PM
Coming out of college who was better Quinn or Ryan?

If you say Quinn or that they are about even, then why would you take Ryan with a top 15 pick?

They were about even. Quinn was a great value for the Brown at 22, and the only reason he dropped was because teams didn't really need a QB last year.

You can't look at where a player was drafted and make an accurate conclusion on their value, because every team has different needs.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 01:30 PM
If thats true, then the Qb pick would make sense. Most young QB's dont fully "blossum" until year 3 or 4.

I still don't think some people fully grasp how bad this team is and how many new players they actually need.

And even if you build a great line, I don't think Croyle would make it 16 games.

eazyb81
03-24-2008, 01:32 PM
One other thing to note: Wonderlic scores were recently released and Ryan scored a 32, the highest score out of the QBs.

alanm
03-24-2008, 01:33 PM
Who's on your list of players that are "certain to be a great player"?
I don't know about Mecca but off the top of my head would be the 2 Longs followed by Dorsey and Ellis. Ryan is a unknown.

eazyb81
03-24-2008, 01:33 PM
I still don't think some people fully grasp how bad this team is and how many new players they actually need.


We are going to be awful this year no matter who we pick in the 1st round, whether it's Ryan, Jake Long, or one of the defensive studs.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 01:33 PM
One other thing to note: Wonderlic scores were recently released and Ryan scored a 32, the highest score out of the QBs.

He'd explain to Herm what plays would work and how passing on 1st down is a good idea, then Herms would make the confused face and tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about.

jAZ
03-24-2008, 01:40 PM
I still doubt the Chiefs will take Ryan, but this is an interesting rationale for why they might and this is totally in line with the piece of garbage that Herm is.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/03/21/mmqb/1.html

Kansas City. Boston College QB Matt Ryan. Just a hunch, though they'll have trouble passing on Michigan offensive tackle Jake Long.

Strange thing here. At the combine, Carl Peterson told me the Chiefs loved Ryan, but there was no way they could take him because of their needs elsewhere. (Offensive line, I'm guessing.) Then they sent half the front office to his workout the other day at BC. Methinks Carl does not want to be the man to pass on the guy he thinks will be a franchise player. The other thing this does is buy coach Herman Edwards one more year of rebuilding. Even if the Chiefs go 5-11 this year, they couldn't whack Edwards until after they got a really good look at Ryan.
How do you read this article and then claim "Herm will draft Matt Ryan to buy himself another year".

It doesn't even remotely say that.

It says that the Chiefs are in LOVE with him, don't think they can take him, but that CARL doesn't want to pass on him. And that CARL drafting him would have the side affect of Herm getting more time.

Hate Carl. Hate Herm. But don't Hate Facts.

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 01:44 PM
I still don't think some people fully grasp how bad this team is and how many new players they actually need.



Agreed.

This is 1988-89 all over again IMO. Maybe even worse??

A few still act as if its 1997.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 01:47 PM
Agreed.

This is 1988-89 all over again IMO. Maybe even worse??

A few still act as if its 1997.

It's as though they think if the Chiefs draft a couple of lineman this team will make the playoffs.

Brock
03-24-2008, 01:48 PM
We are going to be awful this year no matter who we pick in the 1st round, whether it's Ryan, Jake Long, or one of the defensive studs.

+1

HemiEd
03-24-2008, 01:51 PM
I can say that for basically every position on the team....Do you honestly think the Chiefs should be going "hey we gotta take a OT or a DT we're good everywhere else"?

Because frankly they can use players at every position.

No, I did not mean to imply that. They should take BPA, but we know that should mean one of the lineman should be there. I guess I don't really mind who they take BPA, as long as they start building this line from the ground up and quit retreading it.

Chiefnj2
03-24-2008, 01:55 PM
One other thing to note: Wonderlic scores were recently released and Ryan scored a 32, the highest score out of the QBs.

I thought Brohm also had a 32.

donkhater
03-24-2008, 02:01 PM
My take on this:

1. If the Chief's QB situation is unknown, then what do you call Atlanta's? If Atlanta can afford to pass up a franchise QB at #3, then you have to wonder if Ryan is really worth the spot at #5.

2. Some people on this board don't want to hear it, but KC's year turned the minute LJ went down with an injury not because Croyle started. The Chiefs were 5-4, leading the division and beating GB when LJ got hurt. They went on to lose that game and the six following.

When LJ was healthy, defenses stacked against the run and Huard couldn't exploit it. When he went down, that respect for the running game diminished and Croyle struggled, in part, because defenses could play him more honestly. That's my take.

3. KC HAS to come out of this offseason with 2-3 above average aquisitions on the offensive line. Draft? FA? I don't care. But it needs to happen. Not just for the team's sake, but you'll still not accurately be able to access the QBs, WR, or the RB on the team if they don't have time to do what they where hired to do.

4. If Jake Long and Matt Ryan are both on the board at #5 and KC does anything other than to select Long or trade down to aquire more selections, Hunt has all the evidence he needs to fire Carl. End of Story.

Chiefnj2
03-24-2008, 02:02 PM
They were about even. Quinn was a great value for the Brown at 22, and the only reason he dropped was because teams didn't really need a QB last year.

You can't look at where a player was drafted and make an accurate conclusion on their value, because every team has different needs.

Teams can always use a franchise QB. It's the most important thing to a team. Look at the top 9 teams in last years draft and tell me they couldn't use a potential franchise quarterback.

Chiefnj2
03-24-2008, 02:03 PM
It's as though they think if the Chiefs draft a couple of lineman this team will make the playoffs.

That is your take. Most people that would like KC to take some lineman realize that rebuilding an offense begins with the OL. You build from the inside out on both sides of the ball.

Brock
03-24-2008, 02:04 PM
Teams can always use a franchise QB. It's the most important thing to a team. Look at the top 9 teams in last years draft and tell me they couldn't use a potential franchise quarterback.

NFL teams may think Ryan is far better than Quinn.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 02:07 PM
My take on this:

1. If the Chief's QB situation is unknown, then what do you call Atlanta's? If Atlanta can afford to pass up a franchise QB at #3, then you have to wonder if Ryan is really worth the spot at #5.

2. Some people on this board don't want to hear it, but KC's year turned the minute LJ went down with an injury not because Croyle started. The Chiefs were 5-4, leading the division and beating GB when LJ got hurt. They went on to lose that game and the six following.

When LJ was healthy, defenses stacked against the run and Huard couldn't exploit it. When he went down, that respect for the running game diminished and Croyle struggled, in part, because defenses could play him more honestly. That's my take.

3. KC HAS to come out of this offseason with 2-3 above average aquisitions on the offensive line. Draft? FA? I don't care. But it needs to happen. Not just for the team's sake, but you'll still not accurately be able to access the QBs, WR, or the RB on the team if they don't have time to do what they where hired to do.

4. If Jake Long and Matt Ryan are both on the board at #5 and KC does anything other than to select Long or trade down to aquire more selections, Hunt has all the evidence he needs to fire Carl. End of Story.

Larry Johnson wasn't even good last year when he played....this is just another one of those "OMG if we had Larry Johnson we'd have won 9 games" posts.

donkhater
03-24-2008, 02:17 PM
Larry Johnson wasn't even good last year when he played....this is just another one of those "OMG if we had Larry Johnson we'd have won 9 games" posts.

People on this board are absolutely off their rocker if they don't think LJ isn't one of the five best RB's in football.

LJ's year had less to do about his talent than it did about Solari/Edward's offensive philosophy. If you actually think we would've still only won 5 games last season had LJ been with the team, then there is no talking to you.

No, I'm not saying Croyle is all that and we shouldn't even look to upgrade. But the difference (I feel) between Ryan and Croyle is a hell of a lot smaller than a top flight OT prospect and the crap that we saw on the field last season.

As for Matt Ryan per se, re-read point #1 in my post. If Ryan is what KC and others make him out to be, why wouldn't Atlanta be jumping all over him at #3?

Brock
03-24-2008, 02:18 PM
As for Matt Ryan per se, re-read point #1 in my post. If Ryan is what KC and others make him out to be, why wouldn't Atlanta be jumping all over him at #3?

Atlanta really isn't a team I'd look to for sound decision making.

pikesome
03-24-2008, 02:20 PM
Atlanta really isn't a team I'd look to for sound decision making.

While I agree (-ish) with the Mighty Donkhater, this is a good, and funny, point.

RustShack
03-24-2008, 02:21 PM
Stat wise LJ was bad, but he was still a force on the field because he had 8-10 people in the box at all times, allowing Huard to get some balls our to Bowe when he was making great plays early in the year.

CupidStunt
03-24-2008, 02:21 PM
Atlanta really isn't a team I'd look to for sound decision making.

Regardless, if Matt Ryan was a can't-miss QB prospect in the eyes of NFL GMs (by consensus), he'd be gone by No. 5. That's just the reality of it. Miami, Atlanta, even St. Louis, or a team that trades up, like Baltimore, would all snatch him up if he was that good.

Same goes for Jake Long. (And it appears he may be at least close to that level, given where he's going to go.)

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 02:22 PM
Larry Johnson wasn't even good last year when he played....this is just another one of those "OMG if we had Larry Johnson we'd have won 9 games" posts.

This is one area where you and i disagree.

While LJ was not as good as the prior two years, he was still a force and had to be accounted for.

Heck, the Packer game before he got injured, he had one hell of a catch and run that kept us in the game.

crazycoffey
03-24-2008, 02:23 PM
My take on this:
4. If Jake Long and Matt Ryan are both on the board at #5 and KC does anything other than to select Long or trade down to aquire more selections, Hunt has all the evidence he needs to fire Carl. End of Story.


agreed on all four points, kind sir...

RustShack
03-24-2008, 02:23 PM
Ryan could be a great player, but the Falcons could feel someone better is there at #3 where as they wouldn't be there at #5...

KCChiefsMan
03-24-2008, 02:24 PM
we need to get our o-line fixed. I won't matter who's our QB if they only have 2 seconds to throw before getting their ass thrown on the ground.

RustShack
03-24-2008, 02:25 PM
we need to get our o-line fixed. I won't matter who's our QB if they only have 2 seconds to throw before getting their ass thrown on the ground.

We have more than 1 pick in the draft buddy, you can get starters later in the draft on bad years... this is a great year for Oline.. there wont be any problems.

crazycoffey
03-24-2008, 02:26 PM
Larry Johnson wasn't even good last year when he played....this is just another one of those "OMG if we had Larry Johnson we'd have won 9 games" posts.


You always claim to spout out "the truth", but this point is very valid, he had a bad year, D's did stack against him, it was frustrating for him, and us fans, but the truth is.... well, donkhater said it already...


2. Some people on this board don't want to hear it, but KC's year turned the minute LJ went down with an injury not because Croyle started. The Chiefs were 5-4, leading the division and beating GB when LJ got hurt. They went on to lose that game and the six following.

When LJ was healthy, defenses stacked against the run and Huard couldn't exploit it. When he went down, that respect for the running game diminished and Croyle struggled, in part, because defenses could play him more honestly. That's my take.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-24-2008, 02:29 PM
Dorsey, Ellis, C. Long, or Gholston please.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 02:33 PM
I guess Ben Roethlisberger isn't that good since he didn't go till 11.

And even if you love Larry Johnson there are easily 5 backs that would be taken ahead of him right now, hell there are more than that. He's old for a RB.

Brock
03-24-2008, 02:35 PM
Regardless, if Matt Ryan was a can't-miss QB prospect in the eyes of NFL GMs (by consensus), he'd be gone by No. 5. That's just the reality of it. Miami, Atlanta, even St. Louis, or a team that trades up, like Baltimore, would all snatch him up if he was that good.

Same goes for Jake Long. (And it appears he may be at least close to that level, given where he's going to go.)

A team very well may trade up for him. If not, and he's still there at 5, doesn't mean he's not a franchise QB, and neither does what Atlanta thinks of him, that's just silly. If the Chiefs think he's a franchise QB, they should draft him.

kcirnamffoh
03-24-2008, 02:35 PM
Being on the outside looking in, it's impossible to say what could be going on in every team's warroom. But if the Chiefs could find two teams a couple of positions down that want the same player, that would be the time to trade to the highest bidder for extra picks. It seems to me if the Chiefs want to build through the draft then volume comes to mind with me. The more the merrier. Bring in as many as you can then be prepared to keep the right ones.

donkhater
03-24-2008, 02:37 PM
KC has a lot of holes to fill, no doubt.

Pre-Croyle I would have jumped all over the chance to take a QB in the first round--provided he was seen as a top prospect. Green was getting up in years and KC really never had a plan at that position except signing old retreads.

Now we have a young QB (Croyle) who supposedly has the backing of the coach and his teammates and very little in the way of talent on the offensive line. If the chance to nab a a QB the caliber of Manning (either one), Roethlisberger, Rivers, or hell even Cutler were to present itself, I'd say go for it, but Ryan has the feeling of being a Alex Smith---A QB that was drafted high because he was the best out of a weak class. No thanks. I pass.

There are plenty of athletes other positions that will be available to KC at #5 that won't be near the question mark that Ryan would be.

Also, keep this in mind. The evaluation of a QB is dependant on a number of things. How will we know Ryan is any good until the O-line improves? We're still asking that question about Croyle. With a D-lineman or O-lineman or even a CB, the evaluation of that pick will be more straightforward and we'll know whether or not that problem on the team is addressed quicker.

donkhater
03-24-2008, 02:41 PM
A team very well may trade up for him. If not, and he's still there at 5, doesn't mean he's not a franchise QB, and neither does what Atlanta thinks of him, that's just silly. If the Chiefs think he's a franchise QB, they should draft him.

I agree. I don't think KC should base their decision on what Atlanta thinks.

But as far as these mock drafts are concerned, if someone has KC picking Ryan because they don't think KC should pass up the chance to get a franchise QB, then what was their rationale for Atlanta passing on him?

KCChiefsMan
03-24-2008, 02:43 PM
We have more than 1 pick in the draft buddy, you can get starters later in the draft on bad years... this is a great year for Oline.. there wont be any problems.

well excuse me for being skeptical but we haven't drafted a good non-first round o-lineman in any draft for the past decade and I believe we've drafted at least 1 in all of them. Jordan Black was probably the best one.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 02:43 PM
How can anyone justify not taking a QB because of Brodie Croyle, what has he shown? That he's still injury prone as ever?

Brock
03-24-2008, 02:44 PM
well excuse me for being skeptical but we haven't drafted a good non-first round o-lineman in any draft for the past decade and I believe we've drafted at least 1 in all of them. Jordan Black was probably the best one.

We weren't doing good picking them in the first round either.

KCChiefsMan
03-24-2008, 02:47 PM
We weren't doing good picking them in the first round either.

ya :cuss:

pikesome
03-24-2008, 02:48 PM
How can anyone justify not taking a QB because of Brodie Croyle, what has he shown? That he's still injury prone as ever?

It's only a bit less crazy than giving up on Croyle after the half a season try-out he got. We learned he can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, that's about all.

Brock
03-24-2008, 02:49 PM
It's only a bit less crazy than giving up on Croyle after the half a season try-out he got. We learned he can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, that's about all.

He's going to get a full year this year most likely. I'm betting he doesn't make it 6 games no matter who the chiefs draft.

KCChiefsMan
03-24-2008, 02:50 PM
How can anyone justify not taking a QB because of Brodie Croyle, what has he shown? That he's still injury prone as ever?

with that logic the raiders can say the same thing about Russell, so maybe they'll draft Matt Ryan

StcChief
03-24-2008, 02:52 PM
It's matter's not ATL will be taking Ryan if he's there.

we will give Croyle a chance and rebuild our OL/DL it all starts up front.

It would be different if Kerry Collins, etc. were in the backfield.

Ebolapox
03-24-2008, 02:53 PM
with that logic the raiders can say the same thing about Russell, so maybe they'll draft Matt Ryan

difference being, how many (tens of) millions of dollars do the raiders have invested in Russell?

how much do we have invested in croyle? not NEARLY as much. he was a third round pick, coming into the third year of his contract. he's likely making MAX a mill and a half, maybe a few mill, and he's off the books after this year (if we don't resign him)

Mecca
03-24-2008, 02:54 PM
with that logic the raiders can say the same thing about Russell, so maybe they'll draft Matt Ryan

The difference is the Raiders are financially committed to Russell where the Chiefs aren't to Croyle.

donkhater
03-24-2008, 02:55 PM
How can anyone justify not taking a QB because of Brodie Croyle, what has he shown? That he's still injury prone as ever?

Brodie Croyle (what he has shown so far) alone wouldn't prevent me from drafting a QB, but these reasons would:

1. Croyle is still a young QB. He has started a grand total of six games and although he wasn't impressive he did show skills. If Herm trusts the way he evaluates QBs and still thinks Croyle is starter material then he has to go with him. Otherwise, isn't the same thing going to occur with Ryan?

2. Ryan is merely the best of a weak QB class and is ranked that high simply because of the perception he is the best QB.

3. Making a commitment to a QB at #5 is different than committing to another player at #5. Handing HUGE guranteed money to someone who probably won't start for 2-3 years is a bigger gamble than paying money to a lineman who would be expected to start sometime his rookie year if not right off the bat.

Because of that, you have to be REALLY certain of your prognosis on a QB because missing there could set that position back as much as 6 years. (2-3 years to play him + 2-3 years before the next guy is ready). Are the Chiefs THAT certain of Ryan's talents?

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 02:56 PM
Ryan probably wouldn't start next year even if he was the pick, that way they can protect their investment and let Croyle get killed instead.

Kinda funny to see people flip out when you know you can address your Oline without using your first pick on it.

Then Croyle does enough under shitty circumstances to warrant keeping the job, or pulls a Drew Brees, and we either get maybe a second for Ryan, or jack shit for Croyle.

Coogs
03-24-2008, 02:56 PM
It's matter's not ATL will be taking Ryan if he's there.

we will give Croyle a chance and rebuild our OL/DL it all starts up front.

It would be different if Kerry Collins, etc. were in the backfield.


I know a lot of you don't really want to admit this, but we have pretty much alread rebuilt the defensive line. Allen, Hali, Tank, and Turk. It is just time to let Tank and Turk earn thier keep.

Fix the O-line this season. It has been ignored far to long. Gun has restocked his shelves a couple of times already since he has returned, and the O has payed big time. Time for Gun to make a little chicken salad of the ingrediants he already has in the house.

King_Chief_Fan
03-24-2008, 02:57 PM
I agree. I don't think KC should base their decision on what Atlanta thinks.

But as far as these mock drafts are concerned, if someone has KC picking Ryan because they don't think KC should pass up the chance to get a franchise QB, then what was their rationale for Atlanta passing on him?

that Vick would be found not guilty and return to play QB for them:shrug:

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 02:57 PM
Brodie Croyle (what he has shown so far) alone wouldn't prevent me from drafting a QB, but these reasons would:

1. Croyle is still a young QB. He has started a grand total of six games and although he wasn't impressive he did show skills. If Herm trusts the way he evaluates QBs and still thinks Croyle is starter material then he has to go with him. Otherwise, isn't the same thing going to occur with Ryan?

2. Ryan is merely the best of a weak QB class and is ranked that high simply because of the perception he is the best QB.

3. Making a commitment to a QB at #5 is different than committing to another player at #5. Handing HUGE guranteed money to someone who probably won't start for 2-3 years is a bigger gamble than paying money to a lineman who would be expected to start sometime his rookie year if not right off the bat.

Correct.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 03:00 PM
Then Croyle does enough under shitty circumstances to warrant keeping the job, or pulls a Drew Brees, and we either get maybe a second for Ryan, or jack shit for Croyle.

If Croyle did what you are implying then someone would give you something for him, Ryans top 5 contract makes him untradeable period.

I'm sorry I can't have blind faith in a guy who's made of glass. I don't think Croyle under any circumstances will ever play a full season.

Say what you will about Ryan but he's been well thought of for quite a long time. And QB's like him get harder to find with each passing year due to all of these teams obsessions to play the spread option offense in college.

Also don't compare Ryan to Alex Smith, Smith was another spread option guy Ryan comes from a pro style offense.

Ryan would have been off the board before Quinn was last year...

KCChiefsMan
03-24-2008, 03:03 PM
difference being, how many (tens of) millions of dollars do the raiders have invested in Russell?

how much do we have invested in croyle? not NEARLY as much. he was a third round pick, coming into the third year of his contract. he's likely making MAX a mill and a half, maybe a few mill, and he's off the books after this year (if we don't resign him)

true

donkhater
03-24-2008, 03:09 PM
Ryan would have been off the board before Quinn was last year...

If that's true, then I don't mind KC picking Ryan.

Honestly, I don't really know much about the guy. I saw a few of his games and read scouting reports and to be quite honest he just never really stood out as a top 5 prospect.

I've seen both Jake Long and Glenn Dorsey play and they both stood out as top 5 prospects.

I have to admit another thing that is influencing me is the vast improvement of Cleveland's offense this season. Sure, Derek Anderson and Jamal Lewis also were new(ish), but one has to wonder if Joe Thomas wasn't the big reason why.

Seeing Willie Roaf play the last few seasons in KC and the way the offense clicked when he played, I'm now a BIG believer in the value of a premier left tackle. When you can get one of those, you pounce and don't think twice.

Der Flöprer
03-24-2008, 03:09 PM
Dorsey/J. Long/Ellis/C. Long/Ryan We're guaranteed one of these players, so I won't be crushed as long as we don't draft outside of these perameters.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 03:14 PM
If that's true, then I don't mind KC picking Ryan.

Honestly, I don't really know much about the guy. I saw a few of his games and read scouting reports and to be quite honest he just never really stood out as a top 5 prospect.

I've seen both Jake Long and Glenn Dorsey play and they both stood out as top 5 prospects.

I have to admit another thing that is influencing me is the vast improvement of Cleveland's offense this season. Sure, Derek Anderson and Jamal Lewis also were new(ish), but one has to wonder if Joe Thomas wasn't a big reason why.

Seeing Willie Roaf play the last few seasons in KC and the way the offense clicked when he played, I'm now a BIG believer in the value of a premier left tackle. When you can get one of those, you pounce and don't think twice.

Cleveland spent a 100 million dollars in Olineman outside of Thomas, it wasn't just him, they had been working on that offense and that line for several years. Also none of these linemen are the same type of prospects Thomas was.

Matt Ryans scouting report doesn't jump out because he doesn't have a cannon arm, but if watching games tells you anything you don't need a cannon.

Ryan's game film speaks that he has played in situations similar to the pro game though. He played with a very bad supporting cast so he frequently had to make very difficult throws and fit it in. He was rarely throwing to wide open players. I consider this an advantage over the QB's who get to complete easy passes to guys running free.

He's smart, he's tall which I think is a very underrated thing these days for QB's, comes from an NFL friendly system and has top notch intangibles. The only thing he really doesn't have is the huge arm and there are plenty of guys who are great players without it.

TrebMaxx
03-24-2008, 03:18 PM
Dorsey/J. Long/Ellis/C. Long/Ryan We're guaranteed one of these players, so I won't be crushed as long as we don't draft outside of these perameters.

Exactly, no reaches please!

donkhater
03-24-2008, 03:20 PM
Cleveland spent a 100 million dollars in Olineman outside of Thomas, it wasn't just him, they had been working on that offense and that line for several years. Also none of these linemen are the same type of prospects Thomas was.

Really? Jake Long was the Big Ten Offensive lineman of the year the last 2 seasons (i.e. when Thomas was a senior). He isn't of Thomas's caliber?

Hey, I'm OK drafting Ryan. I'm not trying to diss him. But if it's between Long and Ryan, I gotta think it's a no-brainer.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 03:23 PM
As a pass blocker Long doesn't sniff Thomas. Thomas has much better feet and has that "finesse" in his game it requires to be a great pass blocker. Long is a better run blocker and much more of a mauler which makes him not as good of a pass blocker......at LT I think pass blocking is much more important.

The point is Jake Long isn't going to transform the line and with the amount of money you pay a guy at 5 he better be a pro bowl level player and there are some serious questions if he's even at LT at the NFL level.

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 03:26 PM
If that's true, then I don't mind KC picking Ryan.

Honestly, I don't really know much about the guy. I saw a few of his games and read scouting reports and to be quite honest he just never really stood out as a top 5 prospect.



Ive seen Ryan described by a few as "Matt Hasselbeck" like.

Now, Hasselbeck is hardley Elway or Marino, but wouldnt anyone here want a potential Hasselback for the next 10-12 years??

Mecca
03-24-2008, 03:29 PM
Ive seen Ryan described by a few as "Matt Hasselbeck" like.

Now, Hasselbeck is hardley Elway or Marino, but wouldnt anyone here want a potential Hasselback for the next 10-12 years??

He reminds me of Roethlisberger in his size and his moving ability in the pocket, I don't think his arm is quite that good though. Hasselbeck probably isn't a bad comparison, I'd say he's a bit of a mix between those 2 guys.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 03:48 PM
He reminds me of Roethlisberger in his size and his moving ability in the pocket, I don't think his arm is quite that good though. Hasselbeck probably isn't a bad comparison, I'd say he's a bit of a mix between those 2 guys.

He reminds me of Alex Smith, only not as good a prospect, and 22 more int's his final two college seasons.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 03:50 PM
Alex Smith is a ridiculously bad comparison, Smith came out of the gimmicky spread option offense, Ryan comes from a pro style offense.

Smith put up stats in it, so does Chase Daniel you think he's an NFL QB?

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 03:55 PM
Alex Smith is a ridiculously bad comparison, Smith came out of the gimmicky spread option offense, Ryan comes from a pro style offense.

Smith put up stats in it, so does Chase Daniel you think he's an NFL QB?

No I think Alex was the product of a bad QB class. As Matt will soon be.

Fish
03-24-2008, 03:57 PM
No I think Alex was the product of a bad QB class. As Matt will soon be.

Why would a bad QB class hurt a QB prospect's chances?

Brock
03-24-2008, 03:59 PM
No I think Alex was the product of a bad QB class. As Matt will soon be.

this makes no sense at all.

HemiEd
03-24-2008, 04:00 PM
He played with a very bad supporting cast so he frequently had to make very difficult throws and fit it in. He was rarely throwing to wide open players. I consider this an advantage over the QB's who get to complete easy passes to guys running free.

Isn't that the same we heard about Brodie Croyle? It was the reason he got injurred, his supporting cast was so bad?

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 04:00 PM
No I think Alex was the product of a bad QB class.

Jason Campbell is developing. Aaron Rodgers i think will be good. In fact, its too bad we passed on him at the time. Hindsights 20/20.

Chiefnj2
03-24-2008, 04:04 PM
Why would a bad QB class hurt a QB prospect's chances?

What I think he is saying is that draft gurus are overvaluing Ryan because he is a QB. With a weak class he is moving to the top of the class by default. People automatically want to move the top QB up in the top 10.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 04:06 PM
I'm trying to say that Alex should have never beeen drafted that high, but because the QB class was weak, the best of the bunch was elevated above the level that he would be if he played any other position. The same is happening with Ryan, and he will eventually be a product of that.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 04:09 PM
Jason Campbell is developing. Aaron Rodgers i think will be good. In fact, its too bad we passed on him at the time. Hindsights 20/20.

You got the Rodgers part right, and I would have taken him before Smith anyday.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 04:11 PM
Isn't that the same we heard about Brodie Croyle? It was the reason he got injurred, his supporting cast was so bad?

Slight difference though.......Ryan didn't suffer any devastating injuries, Croyle has 3 times...

Here are Croyle's top 2 years passing in college...

2005 339 202 59.6 2,499 14 4 132.8

2003 341 182 53.4 2,303 16 13 118.0

Now let's compare that to Matt Ryan for just a moment...

2007 654 388 59.3 4,507 31 19 127.0

2006 426 262 61.5 2,939 15 10 126.4

Ryan nearly had as many passes in 1 year as Croyle did in 2...Sometimes I don't think people realize how much BC relied upon him. They may have not won a game without him.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 04:12 PM
I'm trying to say that Alex should have never beeen drafted that high, but because the QB class was weak, the best of the bunch was elevated above the level that he would be if he played any other position. The same is happening with Ryan, and he will eventually be a product of that.

Smith has also had 4 OC's in 4 years......his situation is screwed up not to mention coming out of the spread option gives him a bigger curve.

RustShack
03-24-2008, 04:15 PM
Ryan is the kind of QB you want, he won games without a supporting cast. His stats are also pretty impressive for not having any real targets.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 04:16 PM
Smith has also had 4 OC's in 4 years......his situation is screwed up not to mention coming out of the spread option gives him a bigger curve.

It has not been fortunate for him, but he has shown Jack, and Shit.

He's had better lines than Croyle.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 04:19 PM
It has not been fortunate for him, but he has shown Jack, and Shit.

He's had better lines than Croyle.

Yea cause we didn't draft Joe Staley!

Alex Smith is a ridiculously bad comparison for Ryan, different kind of players from different systems.

If you want to give me Ryan comparisons use someone who atleast came from a pro style offense. Smith comes from the shit Missouri runs, Ryan actually you know took snaps from under center.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 04:21 PM
Yea cause we didn't draft Joe Staley!

Alex Smith is a ridiculously bad comparison for Ryan, different kind of players from different systems.

If you want to give me Ryan comparisons use someone who atleast came from a pro style offense. Smith comes from the shit Missouri runs, Ryan actually you know took snaps from under center.
Yea, It never had anything to do with their styles or stats, just the position they were in aproaching the draft.

JBucc
03-24-2008, 04:21 PM
I think Ryan is a much better prospect than Smith was. Of course I thought Rodgers was better than Smith too. I'd also take Brohm over Smith.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 04:22 PM
I think Ryan is a much better prospect than Smith was. Of course I thought Rodgers was better than Smith too. I'd also take Brohm over Smith.

I agree with everything you just said.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 04:24 PM
But in the eyes of scouts, and media, Ryan is not the prospect Alex was.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 04:25 PM
The only reason people don't get enamored with Ryan is because he doesn't have a huge arm.

Ryan is a polar opposite of Alex Smith in the way he plays so lets stop comparing them. Matt Ryan compares to guys like Matt Hasselbeck or even Eli Manning for his skills not Alex Smith.

Chiefnj2
03-24-2008, 04:27 PM
The only reason people don't get enamored with Ryan is because he doesn't have a huge arm.

Ryan is a polar opposite of Alex Smith in the way he plays so lets stop comparing them. Matt Ryan compares to guys like Matt Hasselbeck or even Eli Manning for his skills not Alex Smith.

The reason people aren't enamored is because he can play like Jeff George for 58 minutes and then Joe Montana for 2 minutes. In the NFL those 58 George minutes will kill you and your team.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 04:30 PM
The reason people aren't enamored is because he can play like Jeff George for 58 minutes and then Joe Montana for 2 minutes. In the NFL those 58 George minutes will kill you and your team.

Have you seen his supporting cast again? Ryan was pretty much phenomenal to do what he did with those players he had around him.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 04:30 PM
The reason people aren't enamored is because he can play like Jeff George for 58 minutes and then Joe Montana for 2 minutes. In the NFL those 58 George minutes will kill you and your team.
And he constantly holds on to the ball, then fires back across his body, both of which will ruin him in the pros.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 04:31 PM
Have you seen his supporting cast again? Ryan was pretty much phenomenal to do what he did with those players he had around him.

He made a lot happen improvising which I don't think he's gonna be able to do when the defensive talent shoots up on him.

RustShack
03-24-2008, 04:33 PM
The offensive talent will also shoot up around him, helping him more...

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 04:36 PM
The offensive talent will also shoot up around him, helping him more...

You never know. I think he's got some bad habbits, but would not be surprised if he becomes a SOLID starter.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 04:36 PM
Because you're watching his highlight vids which obviously put those in there because they are big plays, guy is very smart he knows what he can and can't do...

What you need to be watching is the tight throws he made into very small spaces due to his receivers never getting much separation those are the types of throws NFL QB's have to make to be successful.

Ryan doesn't have say the "upside" of JaMarcus Russell because his arm isn't that big but his intangibles are better, it's basically what you expect of a QB.

In addition, Ryan has no true flaws physcially. He's 6'4 3/4 228, is fairly athletic (he moves very well in the pocket), he has a strong arm it just isn't a cannon, is very accurate and has a maturity about him that is beyond his years. As far as upside goes, he may not be that freak like Russell or Ryan Leaf, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ryan is a very solid all around prospect and should be able to step in right away and help an NFL Franchise.

RustShack
03-24-2008, 04:40 PM
He won games without talent at BC, I think he has a pretty good shot at winning a few games with Bowe, Gonzo, LJ, and a good defense. The line should be somewhat upgraded, we have a compitent OC right now, and he has the size to not get killed after one game behind our line of last year...

HemiEd
03-24-2008, 04:40 PM
Slight difference though.......Ryan didn't suffer any devastating injuries, Croyle has 3 times...

Here are Croyle's top 2 years passing in college...

2005 339 202 59.6 2,499 14 4 132.8

2003 341 182 53.4 2,303 16 13 118.0

Now let's compare that to Matt Ryan for just a moment...

2007 654 388 59.3 4,507 31 19 127.0

2006 426 262 61.5 2,939 15 10 126.4

Ryan nearly had as many passes in 1 year as Croyle did in 2...Sometimes I don't think people realize how much BC relied upon him. They may have not won a game without him.
Good information, thanks. I am sold.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 04:45 PM
Because you're watching his highlight vids which obviously put those in there because they are big plays, guy is very smart he knows what he can and can't do...

What you need to be watching is the tight throws he made into very small spaces due to his receivers never getting much separation those are the types of throws NFL QB's have to make to be successful.

Ryan doesn't have say the "upside" of JaMarcus Russell because his arm isn't that big but his intangibles are better, it's basically what you expect of a QB.

In addition, Ryan has no true flaws physcially. He's 6'4 3/4 228, is fairly athletic (he moves very well in the pocket), he has a strong arm it just isn't a cannon, is very accurate and has a maturity about him that is beyond his years. As far as upside goes, he may not be that freak like Russell or Ryan Leaf, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ryan is a very solid all around prospect and should be able to step in right away and help an NFL Franchise.

I don't put much stock into "upside" with a pick that high anyway.
Matt Ryan has a good chance of being SOLID, maybe even above average. Hell, maybe even good.

I will take a STUD at any other position, before an above average QB just because he's a QB.

There will be a STUD available.

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 04:50 PM
I will take a STUD at any other position, before an above average QB just because he's a QB.




Well, thats an interesting debate.

But remember the QB is the only guy on the field who touches the ball on every offensive snap. A QB has the most direct impact on any given games outcome than any other position.

sedated
03-24-2008, 04:52 PM
But remember the QB is the only guy on the field who touches the ball on every offensive snap.

what about the center?

Mecca
03-24-2008, 04:53 PM
I think Ryan's a better prospect than a lot of these other guys.....I consider him a top 5 player.

Honestly if you really don't like him I'd like to hear why not. It's like I said before finding these QB's is going to get harder and harder you see teams struggle to find them and fewer going in the first due to this college fixation with the spread option which really hurts the pro games development of QB's.

I trust Ryan alot more than I do anyone that plays in a spread option, if the Chiefs were to take Ryan you'd see the teams kinda show their cards with QB's in this division.

The Broncos and Raiders have the huge armed guys with big upsides and not nearly as good of intangibles on the field. The Chargers and Chiefs would have the guys with the better intangibles and leadership qualities...that said I think Ryan is much more physically talented than Rivers is.

Deberg_1990
03-24-2008, 04:53 PM
what about the center?

Ok, lets draft a center top 5 then. :)

Mecca
03-24-2008, 04:54 PM
Well, thats an interesting debate.

But remember the QB is the only guy on the field who touches the ball on every offensive snap. A QB has the most direct impact on any given games outcome than any other position.

Also with the way the game is changing and the freedom Ryan was given at BC to change plays and move people around I trust that he could call and command a game at the line like the very best QB's in the league today do now.

CoMoChief
03-24-2008, 06:24 PM
I would love the Bears to trade up to our pick for their 2nd and 3rd, that is if and only IF Jake Long isn't there at the 5th pick.

Halfcan
03-24-2008, 06:47 PM
Lets not forget that I predicted the cheifs drafting Ryan a long while back.

I think I will stick to that prediction, since my opinion has changed the opinions of so many in the media.

Halfcan
03-24-2008, 06:48 PM
I think Ryan's a better prospect than a lot of these other guys.....I consider him a top 5 player.

Honestly if you really don't like him I'd like to hear why not. It's like I said before finding these QB's is going to get harder and harder you see teams struggle to find them and fewer going in the first due to this college fixation with the spread option which really hurts the pro games development of QB's.

I trust Ryan alot more than I do anyone that plays in a spread option, if the Chiefs were to take Ryan you'd see the teams kinda show their cards with QB's in this division.

The Broncos and Raiders have the huge armed guys with big upsides and not nearly as good of intangibles on the field. The Chargers and Chiefs would have the guys with the better intangibles and leadership qualities...that said I think Ryan is much more physically talented than Rivers is.

I couldn't agree more. Great post-as usual!! :clap:

Mecca
03-24-2008, 06:58 PM
I would love the Bears to trade up to our pick for their 2nd and 3rd, that is if and only IF Jake Long isn't there at the 5th pick.

Why does everyone always wanna trade down for, we always get jobbed when we do that.

Halfcan
03-24-2008, 07:00 PM
Why does everyone always wanna trade down for, we always get jobbed when we do that.

We won't- we will stay put and draft Ryan. We might even Move Up in the 2nd round if a couple of OT the CHiefs have their eye on are still there though.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-24-2008, 07:59 PM
If Ryan is there you have to take him. Croyle is not the answer, and the Chiefs know it.

OnTheWarpath58
03-24-2008, 08:07 PM
Ive seen Ryan described by a few as "Matt Hasselbeck" like.

Now, Hasselbeck is hardley Elway or Marino, but wouldnt anyone here want a potential Hasselback for the next 10-12 years??

Matt Hasselbeck wasn't even "Matt Hasselbeck" until his 5th year in the league.

So now, you're looking at having a Hasselbeck-like QB for 5-7 years.

That's a huge investment for 5 years worth of above-average QB play.

old_geezer
03-24-2008, 08:09 PM
If Ryan is there you have to take him. Croyle is not the answer, and the Chiefs know it.

My opinion also (for what it's worth)

Chiefnj2
03-24-2008, 08:09 PM
Have you seen his supporting cast again? Ryan was pretty much phenomenal to do what he did with those players he had around him.

Have you seen Brian Brohm's supporting cast? Have you seen the numbers he put up this year with a new coach and scheme? He didn't have nearly the number of breakdowns that Ryan did.

Tribal Warfare
03-24-2008, 08:10 PM
Does it seem odd how vocal KC is concerning Ryan? It just doesn't seem like they're going to pick him

Chiefnj2
03-24-2008, 08:12 PM
Why does everyone always wanna trade down for, we always get jobbed when we do that.

Either you have faith in Herm or Kuharich or you don't. You can't have it both ways. Either they are going to hit on their picks or they they aren't.

OnTheWarpath58
03-24-2008, 08:14 PM
Does it seem odd how vocal KC is concerning Ryan? It just doesn't seem like they're going to pick him

I agree. But the Chiefs would be the team of all teams to pimp this kid, then end up taking him just to save face when he's actually there.

It's a good thing that the draft starts 3 hours later this year, because if we pass on Ellis or Dorsey for Matt ****ing Ryan a bottle of Jameson will be my best friend for the rest of the day.

OnTheWarpath58
03-24-2008, 08:19 PM
Either you have faith in Herm or Kuharich or you don't. You can't have it both ways. Either they are going to hit on their picks or they they aren't.

I have faith. I just don't want to see them trade out of a position to draft an elite player unless they are absolutely RAPING the team they are trading with.

I just don't see anyone willing to give up what it would take (R2, and/or R3) to move up in this draft.

There was a LOT more talent in the Top 10-15 of last years draft, and there wasn't a single trade into/out of the Top 10.

Tribal Warfare
03-24-2008, 08:55 PM
I agree. But the Chiefs would be the team of all teams to pimp this kid, then end up taking him just to save face when he's actually there.

It's a good thing that the draft starts 3 hours later this year, because if we pass on Ellis or Dorsey for Matt ****ing Ryan a bottle of Jameson will be my best friend for the rest of the day.

I hear ya there

Buehler445
03-24-2008, 09:23 PM
I agree. But the Chiefs would be the team of all teams to pimp this kid, then end up taking him just to save face when he's actually there.

It's a good thing that the draft starts 3 hours later this year, because if we pass on Ellis or Dorsey for Matt ****ing Ryan a bottle of Jameson will be my best friend for the rest of the day.

I hear you big man.

beach tribe
03-24-2008, 09:25 PM
I agree. But the Chiefs would be the team of all teams to pimp this kid, then end up taking him just to save face when he's actually there.

It's a good thing that the draft starts 3 hours later this year, because if we pass on Ellis or Dorsey for Matt ****ing Ryan a bottle of Jameson will be my best friend for the rest of the day.

good to know I'm not the only one.

MahiMike
03-24-2008, 09:38 PM
Do we have to draft a QB every year now? What, are we trying to make up for all those years we passed on QBs? This is supposedly one of the best years to draft OL. Sounds like a no-brainer.

If you want a QB, pick up Quinn Gray and be done with it.

Sanka
03-24-2008, 09:48 PM
F!CK MATT RYAN!

KcMizzou
03-24-2008, 09:51 PM
The draft starts three hours later this year? I ask because that's when my company does inventory. It's mandatory that I be there. I've missed the start of the draft for the past several years, but still caught the Chief's pick. I assumed I'd miss it this time around.

What time does it start now? I never really paid attention before, since I knew I couldn't watch.

chagrin
03-24-2008, 09:54 PM
Do we have to draft a QB every year now? What, are we trying to make up for all those years we passed on QBs? This is supposedly one of the best years to draft OL. Sounds like a no-brainer.

If you want a QB, pick up Quinn Gray and be done with it.

Except he's already been snagged by Houston, doh!

TEX
03-24-2008, 10:17 PM
I still doubt the Chiefs will take Ryan, but this is an interesting rationale for why they might and this is totally in line with the piece of garbage that Herm is.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/03/21/mmqb/1.html

Kansas City. Boston College QB Matt Ryan. Just a hunch, though they'll have trouble passing on Michigan offensive tackle Jake Long.

Strange thing here. At the combine, Carl Peterson told me the Chiefs loved Ryan, but there was no way they could take him because of their needs elsewhere. (Offensive line, I'm guessing.) Then they sent half the front office to his workout the other day at BC. Methinks Carl does not want to be the man to pass on the guy he thinks will be a franchise player. The other thing this does is buy coach Herman Edwards one more year of rebuilding. Even if the Chiefs go 5-11 this year, they couldn't whack Edwards until after they got a really good look at Ryan.


Why the hell not?

Mecca
03-24-2008, 10:20 PM
I'd love to know what makes people think Matt Ryan is so shitty it would cause them to drink....

Would you prefer JaMarcus Russell who I watch people talk shit on constantly around here? If you hate the type of QB Russell is then you should love Ryan he's a hard working intangibles guy who has high level physical tools just not elite ones.

The only way the Chiefs will totally botch this pick is if they reach and take a OT no matter what or take a corner with that pick.

RustShack
03-24-2008, 10:21 PM
I don't put much stock into "upside" with a pick that high anyway.
Matt Ryan has a good chance of being SOLID, maybe even above average. Hell, maybe even good.

I will take a STUD at any other position, before an above average QB just because he's a QB.

There will be a STUD available.

Thats just how a lot of people feel about Jake Long, people like me would rather have a STUD than an alright LT, or a good RT.

Mecca
03-24-2008, 10:21 PM
Do we have to draft a QB every year now? What, are we trying to make up for all those years we passed on QBs? This is supposedly one of the best years to draft OL. Sounds like a no-brainer.

If you want a QB, pick up Quinn Gray and be done with it.

Who says taking a QB first means you don't get any lineman? It's a deep OL year but the guys on top aren't as good as in other years. There's more guys just no top end guy.

And people want a QB because it's basically proven that in the league right now it's really ****in hard to win anything if you don't have a QB who can be relied upon, and right now the one we got can't even be relied upon to suit up every week.

TEX
03-24-2008, 10:23 PM
If Ryan is there you have to take him. Croyle is not the answer, and the Chiefs know it.

Yep. He's a 3rd rounder and the Chiefs owe him nothing. The only reason he's still around is because this franchise has failed at drafting and developing a young QB.

RustShack
03-24-2008, 10:23 PM
A good Oline year doesn't mean there are only elite ones in the 1st round... also Quinn Gray signed with the Texans...

Mecca
03-24-2008, 10:25 PM
Yep. He's a 3rd rounder and the Chiefs owe him nothing. The only reason he's still around is because this franchise has failed at drafting and developing a young QB.

If anyone around here really thinks Croyle is on the same stratosphere as Ryan as a prospect I'd like to know what they are smoking...

I see way to most posts around here where you'd think Croyle was the #1 pick best QB prospect of his class and just needs time...when that isn't the case. So far the guy has shown jack and shit. He has a strong arm and gets hurt alot, we all knew that before he ever got drafted.

Tribal Warfare
03-24-2008, 10:41 PM
I'd love to know what makes people think Matt Ryan is so shitty it would cause them to drink....



Lateral move IMO, the guy will do as good as Croyle would with a bigger paycheck

Mecca
03-24-2008, 10:44 PM
Lateral move IMO, the guy will do as good as Croyle would with a bigger paycheck

I disagree with that.......to me the only thing Croyle has over Ryan is his arm strength and well I've seen a ton of big armed guys flame out. Ryans arm is pretty good, hell Tom Brady has an NFL average arm.

KcMizzou
03-24-2008, 10:51 PM
Lateral move IMO, the guy will do as good as Croyle would with a bigger paycheckBy all accounts, he's a much better prospect.

Hell, I'm no draft guru... but the general consensus seems to be that Ryan has a MUCH better chance of becoming a good NFL QB.

The Chiefs have been set on Croyle, until now. If they're willing to give up on Croyle, and pass on some other huge needs... I figure it's probably because they figure Ryan over Croyle is a huge up-grade.

If that's the case, I can't really argue with it. I like Croyle. I hope he'll be good some day... but nothing he's done has convinced me that he's a future stud.

Logical
03-24-2008, 10:57 PM
Really? Jake Long was the Big Ten Offensive lineman of the year the last 2 seasons (i.e. when Thomas was a senior). He isn't of Thomas's caliber?

Hey, I'm OK drafting Ryan. I'm not trying to diss him. But if it's between Long and Ryan, I gotta think it's a no-brainer.
I think the problem is that based on all the scouting reports Long is not a sure thing for an NFL caliber left tackle. That is a really high pick for a right tackle.

Pasta Giant Meatball
03-24-2008, 11:40 PM
why are people comparing matt ryan to hasselbeck??? wasn't hasselbeck a late round pick? how does he compare to a guy considered top 5 talent?

i really think alot of people haven't even seen matt ryan play. if we took him i wouldn't be upset at all as well as he played with the lack of talent around him.

Pasta Giant Meatball
03-24-2008, 11:42 PM
By all accounts, he's a much better prospect.

Hell, I'm no draft guru... but the general consensus seems to be that Ryan has a MUCH better chance of becoming a good NFL QB.

The Chiefs have been set on Croyle, until now. If they're willing to give up on Croyle, and pass on some other huge needs... I figure it's probably because they figure Ryan over Croyle is a huge up-grade.

If that's the case, I can't really argue with it. I like Croyle. I hope he'll be good some day... but nothing he's done has convinced me that he's a future stud.

agree completely. i HOPE croyle pans out, but if they feel ryan is a franchise quarterback you have to take him if who you want is gone and he's the top guy on your board.

irishjayhawk
03-25-2008, 12:11 AM
Can someone explain to me how Ryan rose? He sucked against VT. He sucks in general. I watched some of his games last year and he seemed like a 2nd rounder at best. Why is he all of the sudden skyrocketed to a position that makes him off the board or taken by us?

Von Dumbass
03-25-2008, 04:41 AM
do you guys not like brodie croyle?

OnTheWarpath58
03-25-2008, 05:33 AM
I'd love to know what makes people think Matt Ryan is so shitty it would cause them to drink....

Would you prefer JaMarcus Russell who I watch people talk shit on constantly around here? If you hate the type of QB Russell is then you should love Ryan he's a hard working intangibles guy who has high level physical tools just not elite ones.

The only way the Chiefs will totally botch this pick is if they reach and take a OT no matter what or take a corner with that pick.

I'll tell you. It should sound familiar considering I've heard it numerous times in your own posts.

If I'm spending a Top 5 pick on a guy, there better be no doubts. He has to be a Pro Bowl, year-in, year-out player.

If "solid" isn't good enough when addressing the LT position, (which IMO, it's not) then it shouldn't be when addressing the QB position.

And FTR, I've NEVER said that Ryan was shitty.

But a guy who has the upside potential of Matt ****ing Hasselbeck is NOT worth a 5th overall pick, IMO.

Unless there's a Carson Palmer, Peyton Manning type QB there, you don't take one that early. And there's no argument - Ryan is NOT that type of player.

Chiefs=Good
03-25-2008, 05:36 AM
Im sorry but if were going to draft a QB with a top 5 pick, then i want him to be BLOODY GOOD not good. Ryan could be SOLID, but that is not worth a top 5 pick. He throws across his body (as some have stated) and takes to many risks. With the offense were going to run that just wont be suficent. Plus if Dorsey or Long are there this is a non-argument because to pass on players of their caliber, when you've already got Brodie PLUS 9 other picks to select a QB, you DO NOT do it. Its the same argument as we should take a OT at all costs. If their not worth the pick, due to other more talented players being there or their not an elite talent DONT select them!!!

I think i made the same point several times, but whatever.

Chiefs=Good
03-25-2008, 05:37 AM
I'll tell you. It should sound familiar considering I've heard it numerous times in your own posts.

If I'm spending a Top 5 pick on a guy, there better be no doubts. He has to be a Pro Bowl, year-in, year-out player.

If "solid" isn't good enough when addressing the LT position, (which IMO, it's not) then it shouldn't be when addressing the QB position.

And FTR, I've NEVER said that Ryan was shitty.

But a guy who has the upside potential of Matt ****ing Hasselbeck is NOT worth a 5th overall pick, IMO.

Unless there's a Carson Palmer, Peyton Manning type QB there, you don't take one that early. And there's no argument - Ryan is NOT that type of player.

Good point, i think i made the same... :doh!:

beach tribe
03-25-2008, 06:29 AM
Good point, i think i made the same... :doh!:

Me too.

DenverChief
03-25-2008, 06:46 AM
I want Joe Flacco anyway

ChiefaRoo
03-25-2008, 07:07 AM
Maybe KC goes with Ryan and then goes O-line in the 2,3,4,5 rounds to produce two starters and two backups. Then they pick up some depth via trade after the draft and presto you'v got your 2008 KC chiefs. Bleh, rookie Center and relying on Boone, Tank and Turk to play better ball next year. Who's the 2nd and 3rd CB again?

King_Chief_Fan
03-25-2008, 07:37 AM
do you guys not like brodie croyle?
not really, about as much as we are going to like you mr. cutler7624...j/k
welcome to the planet.

Chiefnj2
03-25-2008, 08:56 AM
Can someone explain to me how Ryan rose? He sucked against VT. He sucks in general. I watched some of his games last year and he seemed like a 2nd rounder at best. Why is he all of the sudden skyrocketed to a position that makes him off the board or taken by us?


It's the Tom Brady effect. Tom doesn't have the best feet, best mechanics, best arm, but he's got intangibles that make him win. Like you said, you can watch Ryan for a good part of a game and he'll suck, but then he will make some awesome plays. People are hoping to harness those good qualities and find the next Tom Brady.

jspchief
03-25-2008, 09:03 AM
It's the Tom Brady effect. Tom doesn't have the best feet, best mechanics, best arm, but he's got intangibles that make him win. Like you said, you can watch Ryan for a good part of a game and he'll suck, but then he will make some awesome plays. People are hoping to harness those good qualities and find the next Tom Brady.In that case, I'd be perfectly happy taking Ryan in the 6th round.

Coogs
03-25-2008, 09:13 AM
It's the Tom Brady effect. Tom doesn't have the best feet, best mechanics, best arm, but he's got intangibles that make him win. Like you said, you can watch Ryan for a good part of a game and he'll suck, but then he will make some awesome plays. People are hoping to harness those good qualities and find the next Tom Brady.

If we would have had a FG kicker who could have made a 30 yard FG, an OC who would have got out of his shell a bit against the Colts, a defense that wouldn't have folded like a cheap shirt after Brodie had rallied us to a lead or tie in at least two games (Jets game included in OT), then we might be saying we already have that QB. But we didn't/don't, and now we need a QB who can lead us to a win. :rolleyes:

crazycoffey
03-25-2008, 09:39 AM
I think the problem is that based on all the scouting reports Long is not a sure thing for an NFL caliber left tackle. That is a really high pick for a right tackle.


I think the bigger problem is - we don't know who is going to be a real stud at the NFL level...

Deberg_1990
03-25-2008, 09:44 AM
I want Joe Flacco anyway

So you want Kyle Boller then? I have a feeling hes the same thing.

beach tribe
03-25-2008, 11:26 AM
It's the Tom Brady effect. Tom doesn't have the best feet, best mechanics, best arm, but he's got intangibles that make him win. Like you said, you can watch Ryan for a good part of a game and he'll suck, but then he will make some awesome plays. People are hoping to harness those good qualities and find the next Tom Brady.

I've never seen Tom Brady suck for most of any game.

beach tribe
03-25-2008, 11:29 AM
I think the problem is that based on all the scouting reports Long is not a sure thing for an NFL caliber left tackle. That is a really high pick for a right tackle.

I think this is BS. If Long wasn't cut out to be a LT he would not be projected so high. He is the best, by far, of the group of LEFT tackles.

Mecca
03-25-2008, 11:50 AM
Here's the problem you get, you want a Palmer or a Manning, those guys are extremely rare. Palmer to be honest had some serious question marks going into his draft he wasn't the for sure #1 pick until just days before the draft. If you want to wait around for that QB fine but we may be waiting for 10 years and who's to say we'll suck enough to get that guy?

QB prospects like Ryan get more and more difficult to find because of all these college teams spread option fixation and I'd never draft a QB that played in it because he basically has no prep for the NFL game.

Also that whole QB/LT argument, to me there is a major difference. QB is by far the most important position on the field. I think there's a major difference in positional value from QB to OL. The reason I say you have to be 100% sure on a OT is because of the money that goes with it. Now QB those guys if good get paid that kinda top 5 cash anyway, to me I'd rather get risky with a QB than a OT.

Ryan probably isn't going to be there when we pick anyway but it's gonna make me laugh in a couple years when everyone is going apeshit that we don't have a QB then complains that all these QB classes suck...

College going to the spread option is hurting the QB classes...Ryan is big, has major intangibles, is smart, threw the ball a ton of times in a pro style offense. Honestly the only thing he doesn't have is the cannon arm and how many guys are succeeding right now without that? Plenty.

Oh by the way you know what the difference in Ryan and Flacco is? Ryan beat out the other QB's at BC to become the starter..Flacco couldn't beat out the QB's at Pitt and transferred out, to me that is a red flag.

RustShack
03-25-2008, 11:55 AM
I think this is BS. If Long wasn't cut out to be a LT he would not be projected so high. He is the best, by far, of the group of LEFT tackles.

Thats exactly why hes projected high, hes the best OT in the draft. Much like Ryan, OT's and QB's will always be projected to go high because of thier position, not thier skill.

beach tribe
03-25-2008, 12:01 PM
Here's the problem you get, you want a Palmer or a Manning, those guys are extremely rare. Palmer to be honest had some serious question marks going into his draft he wasn't the for sure #1 pick until just days before the draft. If you want to wait around for that QB fine but we may be waiting for 10 years and who's to say we'll suck enough to get that guy?

QB prospects like Ryan get more and more difficult to find because of all these college teams spread option fixation and I'd never draft a QB that played in it because he basically has no prep for the NFL game.

Also that whole QB/LT argument, to me there is a major difference. QB is by far the most important position on the field. I think there's a major difference in positional value from QB to OL. The reason I say you have to be 100% sure on a OT is because of the money that goes with it. Now QB those guys if good get paid that kinda top 5 cash anyway, to me I'd rather get risky with a QB than a OT.

Ryan probably isn't going to be there when we pick anyway but it's gonna make me laugh in a couple years when everyone is going apeshit that we don't have a QB then complains that all these QB classes suck...

College going to the spread option is hurting the QB classes...Ryan is big, has major intangibles, is smart, threw the ball a ton of times in a pro style offense. Honestly the only thing he doesn't have is the cannon arm and how many guys are succeeding right now without that? Plenty.

Oh by the way you know what the difference in Ryan and Flacco is? Ryan beat out the other QB's at BC to become the starter..Flacco couldn't beat out the QB's at Pitt and transferred out, to me that is a red flag.

Brady couldn't beat out Henson.

Mecca
03-25-2008, 12:02 PM
Thats exactly why hes projected high, hes the best OT in the draft. Much like Ryan, OT's and QB's will always be projected to go high because of thier position, not thier skill.

I still think Ryan would be at worst a top 10 projection in any year, the only time he wouldn't be the first QB projected is if he was in the draft with some physical freak like Russell.

Here's the thing that gets me around here. I read post after post after post that Russell sucks cause he's dumb despite all his ridiculous physical tools. Ok Ryan doesn't have the same tools but his are pretty good but he's smart and I see people bag on him...

Well in that case what the **** do you want? Make up your mind otherwise you are saying you don't like any kind of QB prospect unless he's a once in 10 years guy.

Mecca
03-25-2008, 12:03 PM
Brady couldn't beat out Henson.

Yea Brady also still played in every game while Henson was thought of as a possible #1 overall pick.....Flacco couldn't beat out Tyler ****in Palko, big difference.

beach tribe
03-25-2008, 12:05 PM
Thats exactly why hes projected high, hes the best OT in the draft. Much like Ryan, OT's and QB's will always be projected to go high because of thier position, not thier skill.

Noone is overvalued more than QBs. Long has been kicking ass for years, and would be picked top 5 in almost any draft.

beach tribe
03-25-2008, 12:07 PM
Yea Brady also still played in every game while Henson was thought of as a possible #1 overall pick.....Flacco couldn't beat out Tyler ****in Palko, big difference.

You mean Henson was so highly touted, had tools, and intangbles, and turned out to be squat?

Mecca
03-25-2008, 12:08 PM
I just don't think Long is nearly athletic enough to be a LT, I don't see it. His flaws are athletic flaws, you can't fix those.

The last thing I want is to draft our own personal Robert Gallery.

Mecca
03-25-2008, 12:09 PM
You mean Henson was so highly touted, had tools, and intangbles, and turned out to be squat?

He screwed himself by playing baseball instead, but he would have likely been the #1 pick, and Henson was more of a tools guy than an intangibles guy,

Deberg_1990
03-25-2008, 12:11 PM
I still think Ryan would be at worst a top 10 projection in any year, the only time he wouldn't be the first QB projected is if he was in the draft with some physical freak like Russell.

Here's the thing that gets me around here. I read post after post after post that Russell sucks cause he's dumb despite all his ridiculous physical tools. Ok Ryan doesn't have the same tools but his are pretty good but he's smart and I see people bag on him...

Well in that case what the **** do you want? Make up your mind otherwise you are saying you don't like any kind of QB prospect unless he's a once in 10 years guy.

Another thing that kills me is that the Chiefs fanbase for years and years has craved for a "Young, homegrown, Franchise QB".


Well, this year is our best chance in decades to snag one, and all people want to do is bag on him. hahaha

Mecca
03-25-2008, 12:14 PM
Another thing that kills me is that the Chiefs fanbase for years and years has craved for a "Young, homegrown, Franchise QB".


Well, this year is our best chance in decades to snag one, and all people want to do is bag on him. hahaha

These are people that think Brodie Croyle and Matt Ryan are similar prospects which should basically tell you all you need to know....

The blind faith in Croyle around here is pretty maddening at times when he is still what everyone knew he was, a guy who gets injured when someone breathes on him.

jspchief
03-25-2008, 12:18 PM
You mean Henson was so highly touted, had tools, and intangbles, and turned out to be squat?Ryan Leaf

Mecca
03-25-2008, 12:19 PM
Ah yes lets compare Ryan and Leaf despite them being nothing like each other, just like the guy who kept bringing up Alex Smith.

suds79
03-25-2008, 12:25 PM
These are people that think Brodie Croyle and Matt Ryan are similar prospects which should basically tell you all you need to know....

The blind faith in Croyle around here is pretty maddening at times when he is still what everyone knew he was, a guy who gets injured when someone breathes on him.

:clap: :clap:

To compare Croyle to a guy who will be draft in the top 8 spots is laughable. It really is.

I think people are blinded with Croyle's decent mobility and cannon arm.

Never mind the fact all the other attributes in question.

1 - Injury Prone (due to lack of size and/or toughness)
2 - Touch? (have you seen this guy throw a screen pass?)
3 - Decision making (yes he's young but it's still in question)

Mecca
03-25-2008, 12:27 PM
:clap: :clap:

To compare Croyle to a guy who will be draft in the top 8 spots is laughable. It really is.

I think people are blinded with Croyle's decent mobility and cannon arm.

Never mind the fact all the other attributes in question.

1 - Injury Prone (due to lack of size and/or toughness)
2 - Touch? (have you seen this guy throw a screen pass?)
3 - Decision making (yes he's young but it's still in question)

That one he tried to throw to the RB in the Jets game was hilarious, throwing a rocket at a guy standing right next to you, it was so bad it got a grounding penalty.

Chiefnj2
03-25-2008, 12:30 PM
People are citicizing Croyle's decision making but are defending Ryan's? 56 TD to 37 INTs in college isn't very good.

jspchief
03-25-2008, 12:31 PM
Ah yes lets compare Ryan and Leaf despite them being nothing like each other, just like the guy who kept bringing up Alex Smith.
Actually, I'm not comparing Matt Ryan to Ryan Leaf.

I'd just like to remind people that Peyton Manning was debateable as the best QB in the draft that year.

We can all sit here and argue over who has what talent, but at the end of the day, NFL teams have people that know 100x more than the most informed poster on this site... and they still have a pretty high chance of getting it wrong.

Matt Ryan has a chance to be a decent QB in the NFL. Jake Long has a chance to be a decent LT in the NFL. The fact that both players will be drafted in the top 10 indicates that most NFL teams probably agree with those two statements.

So how is it that people can sit here and argue that player X is definately not worthy of that pick while player Y is? Regardless of team draft order, these guys are nearly consensus top 10 picks.

The fact is, whether it's Ellis, Long, Ryan, or whoever... the Chiefs are going to pick a very good prospect. I don't care who it is beyond a general yearning to fill a particular hole on the team. I'm sure as hell not going to sit here and pretend I see something that multi-million dollar operations have missed.

crazycoffey
03-25-2008, 12:33 PM
nicely said jsp...

RustShack
03-25-2008, 12:35 PM
People are citicizing Croyle's decision making but are defending Ryan's? 56 TD to 37 INTs in college isn't very good.

His supporting cast wasnt' very good either. I don't know about you, but I know if my recievers couldn't seperate or catch it would be easy for DB's to steal some balls.

Mecca
03-25-2008, 12:35 PM
People are citicizing Croyle's decision making but are defending Ryan's? 56 TD to 37 INTs in college isn't very good.

Do you realize how many times Matt Ryan threw the ball?

jspchief
03-25-2008, 12:38 PM
His supporting cast wasnt' very good either. I don't know about you, but I know if my recievers couldn't seperate or catch it would be easy for DB's to steal some balls.Yea, Ryan certainly didn't have the luxury of playing behind the brick wall that is Will Svitek and John Welbourn, while handing off to workhorses like Kolby Smith, and passing to... whoops, another sack

RustShack
03-25-2008, 12:45 PM
Yea, Ryan certainly didn't have the luxury of playing behind the brick wall that is Will Svitek and John Welbourn, while handing off to workhorses like Kolby Smith, and passing to... whoops, another sack

Well its a good thing he was't our QB LAST YEAR than isn't it.

pikesome
03-25-2008, 12:50 PM
Do you realize how many times Matt Ryan threw the ball?

Ratios don't change when the sample increases.

It'd be like 19 TDs and 13 INTs.

Mecca
03-25-2008, 12:52 PM
807 1,347 9,313 60.0% 56 37

37 Int's in 1,347 attempts, 654 coming in this last year crappy WR's.

pikesome
03-25-2008, 12:54 PM
807 1,347 9,313 60.0% 56 37

37 Int's in 1,347 attempts, 654 coming in this last year crappy WR's.

I hear your argument. The number of balls thrown doesn't change the TD/INT ratio though.

Chiefnj2
03-25-2008, 01:06 PM
807 1,347 9,313 60.0% 56 37

37 Int's in 1,347 attempts, 654 coming in this last year crappy WR's.


Lots of throws, but only 6.9 yards per attempt which places him 56th in the nation. That's a lot of picks for a guy with such a low ypa.

beach tribe
03-25-2008, 01:24 PM
Lots of throws, but only 6.9 yards per attempt which places him 56th in the nation. That's a lot of picks for a guy with such a low ypa.

But, but, his recievers sucked. Sounds like the excuses we'll hear when he starts throwin picks in the NFL. Those recivers also weren't covered by pro corners, and safeties.

blueballs
03-25-2008, 01:39 PM
yippie
over a month to go

PhillyChiefFan
03-25-2008, 01:48 PM
Ha! If we take a QB in the 1st we will not win 5 games. As a consolation, I guess that means we can draft Oher with the #1 pick in the 2009 draft.

Unfortunatly, this would be the SMART move in this situation, however we are talking about Carl. He's a crafty sunovabitch.

As a side note, I would love to have Michael Oher.

sedated
03-25-2008, 02:33 PM
If you are going to take a risk at a possible franchise player, I'd prefer its with a QB rather than an OLineman.



If Ryan was the perfect QB that everyone here seems to need before they pull the trigger on a top 5 pick, he'd be going #1 and we wouldn't have a shot anyway.

Coogs
03-25-2008, 04:20 PM
Ryan probably isn't going to be there when we pick anyway but it's gonna make me laugh in a couple years when everyone is going apeshit that we don't have a QB then complains that all these QB classes suck...

College going to the spread option is hurting the QB classes...Ryan is big, has major intangibles, is smart, threw the ball a ton of times in a pro style offense. Honestly the only thing he doesn't have is the cannon arm and how many guys are succeeding right now without that? Plenty.

How do you know we don't already have that QB in Croyle? And you don't have to throw in your standard reply of "he is made of glass". He came from a pro style offense at Alabama. He had no help on offense at all. And he led them to a 10-1 record (Or something like that. I am not going to look it up.). He has the intangables.

And the sample space we have on him is too small to just throw out the window. Plain and simple. He needs a line in front of him to have a chance to run the offense. LJ needs the line in front of him to run.

To say he doesn't have "it" because he was only a third round pick is absurd too.

And while I am at it, to say we need DT's after just drafting two on the first day last season, and not giving them a chance to prove their mettle is hard to grasp as well. We may already have what you want on our team. Just because they were not pro bowl players thier first year doesn't mean we need more players up front. Shoot, Tuck wasn't all pro his first year with the Giants. Come to think of it, he wasn't this year either.

Ryan could be a good QB. That is what you hear about him. He could be a good QB. As you have said many times, we are a lot of players away from being a great football team. Next year, some college QB will emerge as being the top QB of the draft class. And his name will probably be among the top 5 picks. We will probably be picking there. And in 2 years there will be another top QB of the draft class. By your accounts, if we are as many players away as you say, we should still be in the top 5 or 10 picks, and maybe will have a chance to get a QBotF in that draft.

This team needs O-linemen in the worst way. 1st day O-linemen. Two or three of them. Then the need a year or so to gel, and prove their worth. That is something you guys seem to be unwilling to do with Croyle, Tank and Turk, give them time to prove themselves, so I imagine if we do draft O-line, you guys will throw them all under the bus shortly after thier first screw up in mini-camp.

OnTheWarpath58
03-25-2008, 04:27 PM
How do you know we don't already have that QB in Croyle? And you don't have to throw in your standard reply of "he is made of glass". He came from a pro style offense at Alabama. He had no help on offense at all. And he led them to a 10-1 record (Or something like that. I am not going to look it up.). He has the intangables.

And the sample space we have on him is too small to just throw out the window. Plain and simple. He needs a line in front of him to have a chance to run the offense. LJ needs the line in front of him to run.

To say he doesn't have "it" because he was only a third round pick is absurd too.

And while I am at it, to say we need DT's after just drafting two on the first day last season, and not giving them a chance to prove their mettle is hard to grasp as well. We may already have what you want on our team. Just because they were not pro bowl players thier first year doesn't mean we need more players up front. Shoot, Tuck wasn't all pro his first year with the Giants. Come to think of it, he wasn't this year either.

Ryan could be a good QB. That is what you hear about him. He could be a good QB. As you have said many times, we are a lot of players away from being a great football team. Next year, some college QB will emerge as being the top QB of the draft class. And his name will probably be among the top 5 picks. We will probably be picking there. And in 2 years there will be another top QB of the draft class. By your accounts, if we are as many players away as you say, we should still be in the top 5 or 10 picks, and maybe will have a chance to get a QBotF in that draft.

This team needs O-linemen in the worst way. 1st day O-linemen. Two or three of them. Then the need a year or so to gel, and prove their worth. That is something you guys seem to be unwilling to do withCroyle, Tank and Turk, give them time to prove themselves, so I imagine if we do draft O-line, you guys will throw them all under the bus shortly after thier first screw up in mini-camp.

Tank and Turk ARE going to get a chance to prove themselves REGARDLESS of who we pick.

You need DEPTH on the lines. DT's rotate in, they don't play every down. McBride and Tyler could play like Pro Bowlers this year, but we still have little/nothing behind them.

Boone
Edwards
Turk
Tank
TJ Jackson.

That's it.

Boone disappeared in the second half of the season, Edwards is worthless and TJ Jackson is camp fodder.

I understand the need for OL, I really do.

But there are HUGE HOLES all over this roster. Taking the BPA each round is only going to put us in a better position 2-3 years down the road.

Coogs
03-25-2008, 04:32 PM
But there are HUGE HOLES all over this roster.

And the two biggest holes are along the O-line. Possibly the biggest 3 holes.

Mecca
03-25-2008, 04:36 PM
How do you know we don't already have that QB in Croyle? And you don't have to throw in your standard reply of "he is made of glass". He came from a pro style offense at Alabama. He had no help on offense at all. And he led them to a 10-1 record (Or something like that. I am not going to look it up.). He has the intangables.

And the sample space we have on him is too small to just throw out the window. Plain and simple. He needs a line in front of him to have a chance to run the offense. LJ needs the line in front of him to run.

To say he doesn't have "it" because he was only a third round pick is absurd too.

And while I am at it, to say we need DT's after just drafting two on the first day last season, and not giving them a chance to prove their mettle is hard to grasp as well. We may already have what you want on our team. Just because they were not pro bowl players thier first year doesn't mean we need more players up front. Shoot, Tuck wasn't all pro his first year with the Giants. Come to think of it, he wasn't this year either.

Ryan could be a good QB. That is what you hear about him. He could be a good QB. As you have said many times, we are a lot of players away from being a great football team. Next year, some college QB will emerge as being the top QB of the draft class. And his name will probably be among the top 5 picks. We will probably be picking there. And in 2 years there will be another top QB of the draft class. By your accounts, if we are as many players away as you say, we should still be in the top 5 or 10 picks, and maybe will have a chance to get a QBotF in that draft.

This team needs O-linemen in the worst way. 1st day O-linemen. Two or three of them. Then the need a year or so to gel, and prove their worth. That is something you guys seem to be unwilling to do with Croyle, Tank and Turk, give them time to prove themselves, so I imagine if we do draft O-line, you guys will throw them all under the bus shortly after thier first screw up in mini-camp.

I have absolutely 0 confidence Croyle will ever make it through a season. That is the one position where durability is of the up most importance.

It's much easier to build a good Oline than find a QB..how many good Olines have we had even great ones? How many great QB's have we had...exactly. You won't win shit with some garbage caretaker QB anymore the league isn't set up for that.

Mecca
03-25-2008, 04:37 PM
And the two biggest holes are along the O-line. Possibly the biggest 3 holes.

How many 1st round Olineman did those Superbowl teams have?

I'm sorry to inform some people here, you don't have to take offensive lineman with your first pick in the top ****in 5 to build a good line. I think taking lineman that high is overkill. I don't see the value in it, plenty of other positions yes, OL no.

Fish
03-25-2008, 04:38 PM
And the two biggest holes are along the O-line. Possibly the biggest 3 holes.

And those 2 holes (RG, RT) can very likely be filled in later rounds... where we have extra picks. We don't have to use 1st day picks there. Good teams generally don't.

Mecca
03-25-2008, 04:40 PM
And those 2 holes (RG, RT) can very likely be filled in later rounds... where we have extra picks. We don't have to use 1st day picks there. Good teams generally don't.

If you take a RT or a Guard in general with a top 20 pick you should be kicked in the face for it, that's how bad the value is.

I think some people are forgetting the value on certain positions...not every position has the same value slot.

Unless they are very very rare players I don't think a OL a TE a RB a LB or a Safety are ever worth top 10 picks.....there are rare exceptions but that's my general rule.

Deberg_1990
03-25-2008, 05:11 PM
Unless they are very very rare players I don't think a OL a TE a RB a LB or a Safety are ever worth top 10 picks.....there are rare exceptions but that's my general rule.


A RB is worth a top 10 pick most def. While the position is definately not as valued as it was 10-15 years ago, having a workhorse back is still prized. Mostly because the position touches the ball so much and has the potential to score TD's.

jspchief
03-25-2008, 06:04 PM
How many 1st round Olineman did those Superbowl teams have?

I'm sorry to inform some people here, you don't have to take offensive lineman with your first pick in the top ****in 5 to build a good line. I think taking lineman that high is overkill. I don't see the value in it, plenty of other positions yes, OL no.How many 1st round D-Tackles did those Superbowl teams have?

If it's so blatantly obvious that using high 1st round picks on O-linemen is overkill, why does at least one tackle go in the top 10 almost every single year? Do you know something the rest of the NFL doesn't?

If tackles are so easy to find, why are there never any good ones in free agency?

OnTheWarpath58
03-25-2008, 06:16 PM
There have been 10 OT's taken in the Top 10 in the past 10 years:

Joe Thomas
Levi Brown
D'Brickashaw Ferguson
Robert Gallery
Mike Williams
Bryant McKinnie
Levi Jones
Leonard Davis
Chris Samuels
Kyle Turley


For all the talk about OT being such a "safe" pick, that list doesn't resemble anything safe.

Looks like a lot of guys who haven't played up to their draft slot.

Mecca
03-25-2008, 06:27 PM
How many 1st round D-Tackles did those Superbowl teams have?

If it's so blatantly obvious that using high 1st round picks on O-linemen is overkill, why does at least one tackle go in the top 10 almost every single year? Do you know something the rest of the NFL doesn't?

If tackles are so easy to find, why are there never any good ones in free agency?

New Englands starting front 3 which were all DT's in college were all 1st round picks...Seymour was top 10 Warren went at I believe 13 and Wilfork went at 20..so how about that?

DaneMcCloud
03-25-2008, 06:58 PM
There have been 10 OT's taken in the Top 10 in the past 10 years:

Joe Thomas
Levi Brown
D'Brickashaw Ferguson
Robert Gallery
Mike Williams
Bryant McKinnie
Levi Jones
Leonard Davis
Chris Samuels
Kyle Turley


For all the talk about OT being such a "safe" pick, that list doesn't resemble anything safe.

Looks like a lot of guys who haven't played up to their draft slot.

I have to disagree.

Samuels, Davis, Turley, Thomas and Levi Jones are all Pro Bowl players.

McKinney has been very consistent (and would have obviously been a MUCH better selection in 2002 than Ryan Sims).

It's far too early to pass judgement on Levi Brown or Ferguson.

The only true busts on that is Mike Williams, though Gallery was a huge disappointment at tackle.

Truth be told, the Chiefs offensive line would be improved dramatically with the addition of any of those guys other than Gallery or Williams.

milkman
03-26-2008, 10:06 AM
How do you read this article and then claim "Herm will draft Matt Ryan to buy himself another year".

It doesn't even remotely say that.

It says that the Chiefs are in LOVE with him, don't think they can take him, but that CARL doesn't want to pass on him. And that CARL drafting him would have the side affect of Herm getting more time.

Hate Carl. Hate Herm. But don't Hate Facts.

That's what King wrote, but what he said to Dan Patrick on Patrick's show yesterday is that Herman ****ing Edwards wants Ryan for that very reason.

That being said, Peter King is a ****ing moron.

In other discussion with Patrick, he said he didn't understand how Brohm went from a high first round pick last year to a low first round/high second round pick this year.

He then said that was the reason he has lost all respect for professional scouts.

His next sentence was "I don't know Brian Brohm, and I haven't seen him play".

What a ****ing tool.

Chiefnj2
03-26-2008, 10:17 AM
In other discussion with Patrick, he said he didn't understand how Brohm went from a high first round pick last year to a low first round/high second round pick this year.

He then said that was the reason he has lost all respect for professional scouts.

His next sentence was "I don't know Brian Brohm, and I haven't seen him play".

What a ****ing tool.

Even if he didn't see him play, Brohm's sliding down the boards doesn't make sense. He was supposedly a very high 1st round pick at the end of his junior year. He went back to school in less than ideal circumstances (new coach/system) and put up very good numbers despite the new coach/poor players, etc. You'd think that based on that alone Brohm should have stayed on the top of draft boards.

Three things could have happened:
1. The scouts were all full of crap last year and overvalued him;
2. The scouts are full of crap this year and are undervaluing him;
3. Something happened this past year to cause him to slide, however none of the scouting reports are reporting anything different.

beach tribe
03-26-2008, 10:20 AM
If you take a RT or a Guard in general with a top 20 pick you should be kicked in the face for it, that's how bad the value is.

I think some people are forgetting the value on certain positions...not every position has the same value slot.

Unless they are very very rare players I don't think a OL a TE a RB a LB or a Safety are ever worth top 10 picks.....there are rare exceptions but that's my general rule.

Edit:I do agree about RT and Gaurd.

Most important positions when building or rebuilding a franchise: O-LINE, D-LINE.............period.

milkman
03-26-2008, 10:35 AM
Even if he didn't see him play, Brohm's sliding down the boards doesn't make sense. He was supposedly a very high 1st round pick at the end of his junior year. He went back to school in less than ideal circumstances (new coach/system) and put up very good numbers despite the new coach/poor players, etc. You'd think that based on that alone Brohm should have stayed on the top of draft boards.

Three things could have happened:
1. The scouts were all full of crap last year and overvalued him;
2. The scouts are full of crap this year and are undervaluing him;
3. Something happened this past year to cause him to slide, however none of the scouting reports are reporting anything different.

The thing is, Peter King is in a position that allows him access to information.

He could talk to people and find out those reasons.

But to say that he's lost all respect for scouts who have watched Brohm and made their evaluation, while at the same time telling us he's never seen him play tells me he bigger dipshit than I already thought he was.

milkman
03-26-2008, 10:36 AM
Oh, FTR, I thought that he was overvalued last year.

ChiefButthurt
03-26-2008, 10:56 AM
Nice....draft Matt Ryan and screw up another potential QB out of college. Stick with the plan front office and build the O-line.

RustShack
03-26-2008, 11:25 AM
OR we would draft Ryan, sit him out a year like a lot of other teams succesfully do, build the Oline in the draft(because there is more than our round, some people think only the 1st round matters), then ALSO build it up MORE next year too. You can't do everything at once, rebuilding isn't a one year deal.

Mecca
03-26-2008, 01:17 PM
Nice....draft Matt Ryan and screw up another potential QB out of college. Stick with the plan front office and build the O-line.

So this means that the Chiefs should just quit and never try to win. You can have the best OL ever assembled if you got a crappy ass QB you aren't gonna win a championship.

Brohm's getting to much blame for Louisville's bad season, that's all that is. He took it all year despite it really not being his fault. He doesn't play defense...

beach tribe
03-26-2008, 01:35 PM
So this means that the Chiefs should just quit and never try to win. You can have the best OL ever assembled if you got a crappy ass QB you aren't gonna win a championship.

Brohm's getting to much blame for Louisville's bad season, that's all that is. He took it all year despite it really not being his fault. He doesn't play defense...

The same works in reverse.

Mecca
03-26-2008, 01:42 PM
You guys do realize there are more rounds to a draft than 1 right?

KC4EVER
03-26-2008, 01:51 PM
The more I read into it, the more I believe KC will take Ryan if he falls past Atlanta.

Coogs
03-26-2008, 01:52 PM
You guys do realize there are more rounds to a draft than 1 right?


Yep! And last year in the 2nd and 3rd round we drafted some players that should be expected to start this season. To expect anything less than that from any of us says that the 2nd and 3rd round this season doesn't mean anything as well.

milkman
03-26-2008, 01:54 PM
The more I read into it, the more I believe KC will take Ryan if he falls past Atlanta.

The more I read, and the closer the draft gets, the more I believe that the Chiefs will try to trade down.

milkman
03-26-2008, 01:54 PM
The more I read, and the closer the draft gets, the more I believe that the Chiefs will try to trade down.

FTR, that would piss me off.