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View Full Version : Civil Society Returning to Iraq says Bush


Logical
03-27-2008, 09:50 AM
What he fails to mention is that our occupation destroyed it and the US taxpayer is paying to restore it.

Hell every bit of progress being touted is being paid for by the US taxpayer who is seeing our own countries economy go into the shittter.

Duck Dog
03-27-2008, 10:03 AM
Can any society in that region be considered 'civil'?

penchief
03-27-2008, 11:08 AM
Can any society in that region be considered 'civil'?

According to TJ, civil society is a concoction of the left and doesn't really exist.

patteeu
03-27-2008, 11:09 AM
Our economy is going to be fine. Maybe a name change to "Chicken Little" is in order.

penchief
03-27-2008, 11:09 AM
Our economy is going to be fine, chicken little.

Says Dick Cheney. Oh, and deficits don't matter, either.

Brock
03-27-2008, 11:21 AM
According to TJ, civil society is a concoction of the left and doesn't really exist.

So I guess you agree that a civil society did exist in Iraq before we went over there and unjustly interrupted it.

Iowanian
03-27-2008, 11:24 AM
Iraq did not have a civil society before we kicked the shit out of them.

mass murder, streets full of raw sewage, people shitting in corners of their homes, girls not allowed education....

Iraq was a shithole before we got there and their only hope of civil society begins when our military has killed off enough of their assholes.

Taco John
03-27-2008, 11:26 AM
According to TJ, civil society is a concoction of the left and doesn't really exist.


You're not a very precise person.

"Society" is an abstraction. It's not a real entity. "Society" has no rights.

There's such a thing as "Society." It exists in people's minds. Thus, it just isn't important. Individuals are what is important.

penchief
03-27-2008, 11:26 AM
So I guess you agree that a civil society did exist in Iraq before we went over there and unjustly interrupted it.

What I said is that TJ doesn't believe in the concept of civil society. That's all. So if civil society isn't achievable anywhere, how can it have existed in Iraq?

Brock
03-27-2008, 11:27 AM
What I said is that TJ doesn't believe in the concept of civil society. That's all. So if civil society isn't achievable anywhere, how can it have existed in Iraq?

If by "civil society" you mean "controlling, nosy government" then it did exist in Iraq and it exists in America too.

Taco John
03-27-2008, 11:27 AM
Iraq did not have a civil society before we kicked the shit out of them.

mass murder, streets full of raw sewage, people shitting in corners of their homes, girls not allowed education....

Iraq was a shithole before we got there and their only hope of civil society begins when our military has killed off enough of their assholes.



Nothing you said there is actually true.

penchief
03-27-2008, 11:36 AM
You're not a very precise person.

"Society" is an abstraction. It's not a real entity. "Society" has no rights.

There's such a thing as "Society." It's just not important. Individuals are what is important.

Society is made up of individuals who have common interests. Those interests are served through civil means. That is why we have laws and regulations that protect not only the individual, but the common good. Those laws and regulations are the tools by which those common interests are served. That's what a civil society is.

I think I'm much more precise than you are. You operate in theory only. A dose of realism would help you understand why liberty is more than just economic Darwinism.

Iowanian
03-27-2008, 11:49 AM
Nothing you said there is actually true.

Really? I guess your ass would be aching then.

If you had a clue of what you were talking about, or had spent much time actually talking to any soldiers or engineers who have been there, you'd know that the Iraqi sewer, water and electrical systems had been severely neglected for decades, in areas outside of those chosen sunni areas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/23/world/middleeast/23electricity.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/images/Open%20Sewer%20Ramadi.jpg

http://iraq.billhobbs.com/archives/Sewer.jpg

I've seen a lot of photos like these from soldiers....this didn't start the day we arrived.
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jun2005/20050624_baghdadtrash.jpg

Iowanian
03-27-2008, 11:51 AM
Here is a villages water treatment system
http://banglapraxis.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/stream.jpg


I'm not posting photos, but you wouldn't have to look to hard to find soldiers who will quickly tell you that many Iraqis have a room in their homes...where they shit on the floor....or step out into the front yard and drop duece 5 steps from their front door.

Iowanian
03-27-2008, 11:54 AM
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/watsan.html

In 2003, Iraq's 140 major water treatment facilities were operating at about 35 percent of their design capacity (3 billion liters a day) due to inadequate maintenance, lack of plant operators, power shortages, and looting. USAID is helping improve the efficiency and reliability of existing treatment facilities, and is constructing several new facilities, especially in the south where water quality is particularly poor. Iraq has 13 major wastewater treatment facilities, operating at about a quarter of their design capacity. Baghdad's three sewage plants, comprising three quarters of the nation's total sewage treatment capacity, were not treating waste for more than six years before the conflict, allowing raw waste to flow into the Tigris River. In the rest of the country, most wastewater treatment facilities were only partly operational before the conflict, and a shortage of electricity, parts, and trained staff exacerbated the situation.

I'm wrong about neglect of female education in Iraq too?

http://www.prb.org/Publications/PolicyBriefs/EmpoweringWomenDevelopingSocietyFemaleEducationintheMiddleEastandNorthAfrica.aspx

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/wrd/iraq-women.htm

"since the 1991 Gulf War, the position of women within Iraqi society has deteriorated rapidly. Women and girls were disproportionately affected by the economic consequences of the U.N. sanctions, and lacked access to food, health care, and education. These effects were compounded by changes in the law that restricted women's mobility and access to the formal sector in an effort to ensure jobs to men and appease conservative religious and tribal groups. "


A Donkey says what?

penguinz
03-27-2008, 11:57 AM
sewer, water and electrical systems had been severely neglected for decadesSounds like Kansas City. ;)

Radar Chief
03-27-2008, 12:00 PM
Nothing you said there is actually true.

:LOL: :shake: Dumbass.

PunkinDrublic
03-27-2008, 12:03 PM
Does this suprise anyone? I'd be more shocked if that POS said something that wasn't delusional and out of touch with reality.

Iowanian
03-27-2008, 12:07 PM
What exactly is he wrong on, regarding this topic?

The infrastructure is improving, multiple schools have been restored and opened, water and sewer is being installed in many previously unserved areas(for the slow readers like taco...check into Sadr City for an example), businesses are growing and job creation is up.

Its not perfect, the military is shaky at best, and when we leave, whenever that may be, the savages(not all Iraqis..the militia assholes) will fight to fill the power void. Chaos awaits, but to say that things aren't improving is either ignorance or blinded by hate of Dubya.

BucEyedPea
03-27-2008, 12:25 PM
I think I'm much more precise than you are. You operate in theory only. A dose of realism would help you understand why liberty is more than just economic Darwinism.
'Er...there's a practical aspect to it. Through natural selection, the left-progressives will evolve out of existence. Like the dinosaurs.:D

BucEyedPea
03-27-2008, 12:37 PM
Sounds like Kansas City. ;)

Kansas City here I come!
They got some crazy men there, and I'm gonna get me some! :eek:

Logical
03-27-2008, 02:34 PM
What exactly is he wrong on, regarding this topic?

The infrastructure is improving, multiple schools have been restored and opened, water and sewer is being installed in many previously unserved areas(for the slow readers like taco...check into Sadr City for an example), businesses are growing and job creation is up.

Its not perfect, the military is shaky at best, and when we leave, whenever that may be, the savages(not all Iraqis..the militia assholes) will fight to fill the power void. Chaos awaits, but to say that things aren't improving is either ignorance or blinded by hate of Dubya.


You are right, I am not wrong on anything I said in the thread header. It may have been less than perfect under Saddam, but it was much better than it became after we invaded and f*cked up their country almost beyond repair. Now we as Americans are paying to fix the shithole we created.

Brock
03-27-2008, 02:37 PM
You seriously need to have the chemicals in your brain checked out.

Carlota69
03-27-2008, 02:48 PM
I'm dating a SSgt in the Air Force. He's been to Iraq. Its true, we are over there building schools, repairing their water systems etc....

My problem is, why are we doing that for them when we still have a city called New Orleans that is a shithouse? Why are we building them schools, housing etc, when we have citizens over here in need as well?

And its funny that people think that the governement shouldn't bail out those in need here, but are all for it when it comes to Iraq. I personally would like to see the 18 million per minute spent in Iraq, spent here.

Logical
03-27-2008, 02:55 PM
I'm dating a SSgt in the Air Force. He's been to Iraq. Its true, we are over there building schools, repairing their water systems etc....

My problem is, why are we doing that for them when we still have a city called New Orleans that is a shithouse? Why are we building them schools, housing etc, when we have citizens over here in need as well?

And its funny that people think that the governement shouldn't bail out those in need here, but are all for it when it comes to Iraq. I personally would like to see the 18 million per minute spent in Iraq, spent here.:clap: