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Cave Johnson
03-27-2008, 02:24 PM
What would it have taken for Fox News not to tout Giuliani? I'm guessing video of Monsignor Placa in the act.
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Perhaps the loudest voice in the Wright controversy has belonged to Fox News's Sean Hannity. No one in the media has been more insistent that a politician's choice of pastor is relevant to the campaign; and I cannot think of anyone more outraged by Wright and more determined that this should be a defining issue in discussing the candidacy of Obama. It seems to me worth pointing out therefore that Hannity himself had a candidate in this race not so long ago, and even headlined a fundraiser for him. That candidate was Rudy Giuliani.

It also happens that Giuliani has long been more attached to a pastor than even Obama is to Wright. Monsignor Alan Placa married Giuliani to his second wife, Donna Hanover, and is actually employed by Giuliani Associates. Placa has been credibly accused of serial molestation of teenage boys, was in charge of handling molestation accusations in Long Island in the heyday of the church's cover-up of child abuse and was eventually suspended by the church from priestly duties for those reasons. The credible charges were made after the statute of limitations had passed and so no legal recourse was possible. But here's the Associated Press last year:

"There's ample evidence showing that Placa consistently protected predators, shrewdly deceived victims, and covered up horrific clergy sex crimes," said a statement from David Clohessy, national director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.
Last year, theocon Deal Hudson reported that:

The grand jury report includes excerpts from a letter in which Placa brags about his ability to settle multi-million dollar clergy abuse claims for "$20,000 to $100,000."... The suspension of Placa's priestly duties has now reached the five-year point, far beyond the norm in such cases.
Here was Giuliani's response when challenged about his continuing association:

"I know the man; I know who he is, so I support him. We give some of the worst people in our society the presumption of innocence and benefit of the doubt. And, of course, I'm going to give that to one of my closest friends."
How many hours did Sean Hannity dedicate to this story of his own candidate's long-running association with and knowing employment of a priest who was an accused child molester?

This blogger reports one moment last December on Hannity's radio talk show relevant to this issue. When a caller said she could not support Giuliani for president:

Hannity went ballistic, carrying on about how he’s the best on crime, talked about his handling of 9/11, etc. The caller interrupted him and told him that she could never vote for Giuliani because he has an alleged child molester on his staff.

Again Hannity exploded, telling her that he knew the priest was innocent.
In this campaign, as Ron Paul and Barack Obama have shown, exposing associations with unseemly words by close associates is on the table. But if those are the standards, is it not fair to ask Sean Hannity about his non-coverage of Rudy Giuliani's long association with Monsignor Placa? Are dubious pastors only relevant when they are black and guilty of some ugly rhetoric? But not if they are white and credibly accused of molesting children?

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/03/the-pastors-of.html#more

Taco John
03-27-2008, 02:31 PM
Man, I am on my game. Just two days ago I had told myself, "this thing is going to morph into an attack on religion in general... We'll be reminded of catholic pedophile stuff soon, and every candidate's religious beliefs will come under the spotlight."

It's going to get ugly out there.

pikesome
03-27-2008, 02:35 PM
Man, I am on my game. Just two days ago I had told myself, "this thing is going to morph into an attack on religion in general... We'll be reminded of catholic pedophile stuff soon, and every candidate's religious beliefs will come under the spotlight."

It's going to get ugly out there.

I'd just be happy if this exposed the fact most politicians appear to be just as religious as they need to be to win an election. Obama, Rudy, whoever, their religious connections were/are about votes, little else.

Which might be even more despicable.

Carlota69
03-27-2008, 02:40 PM
Man, I am on my game. Just two days ago I had told myself, "this thing is going to morph into an attack on religion in general... We'll be reminded of catholic pedophile stuff soon, and every candidate's religious beliefs will come under the spotlight."

It's going to get ugly out there.

Yeah, that whole Serperation of church and state thing means diddly squat. :shake:

But then again, has there ever been seperation of church and state when it comes to the Prez, or govt office in general?

Peeps were pissed that JFK was Catholic, Bush Jr. has tried to put his own religious beliefs into the US Constituion (banning gay marriage) , the Wright thing, just to name a couple of examples.

BucEyedPea
03-27-2008, 03:03 PM
I read on a left wing site, Mother Jones, that Hillary is a member of secret rayer group the power-elites have in DC made up of both conservatives and liberals. They're trying to bring Jesus to Capital Hill. I thought that was odd.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html

Taco John
03-27-2008, 03:10 PM
Yeah, that whole Serperation of church and state thing means diddly squat. :shake:


Seperation of church and state does not mean that public officials aren't allowed to have religion.

SBK
03-27-2008, 03:15 PM
I'm sure all of Obama's disciples will be along shortly to let us all know that Rudy's guy isn't Rudy and Rudy can disagree with him and it shouldn't matter....

I think TJ was right that this will be an attack on all religion. I think it'll come from the media in a way to paint Wright as normal, more than to attack everyone just to attack.

HolmeZz
03-27-2008, 03:19 PM
I'm sure all of Obama's disciples will be along shortly to let us all know that Rudy's guy isn't Rudy and Rudy can disagree with him and it shouldn't matter...

Well I certainly wouldn't claim Rudy was a child molester simply because his Pastor was one.

Rudy is a lot of other things though.

Carlota69
03-27-2008, 03:21 PM
Seperation of church and state does not mean that public officials aren't allowed to have religion.

True. I just dont believe that it should be used against them,(JFK Romney) or used against us (Bush).

patteeu
03-27-2008, 03:26 PM
Another attempt by the Obama camp to change the subject without really addressing the troubling issues raised by Obama's 20 association with Jeremiah Wright. Everybody does it!

HolmeZz
03-27-2008, 03:29 PM
Another attempt by the Obama camp to change the subject without really addressing the troubling issues raised by Obama's 20 association with Jeremiah Wright. Everybody does it!

Or Pat's desire to change the subject away from the fact that Romney belonged to the Mormon Church while it discriminated against blacks.

It goes every which way.

Pitt Gorilla
03-27-2008, 03:36 PM
Or Pat's desire to change the subject away from the fact that Romney belonged to the Mormon Church while it discriminated against blacks.

It goes every which way.I hadn't thought about that, but it does seem to be the case.

Adept Havelock
03-27-2008, 04:13 PM
Or Pat's desire to change the subject away from the fact that Romney belonged to the Mormon Church while it discriminated against blacks.

It goes every which way.

True. I always thought that whole "Children of Ham" rationalization for discrimination (renounced in the late 1970's IIRC) wasn't Kosher.

Cave Johnson
03-27-2008, 04:52 PM
I'd just be happy if this exposed the fact most politicians appear to be just as religious as they need to be to win an election. Obama, Rudy, whoever, their religious connections were/are about votes, little else.

Which might be even more despicable.

Why would politicians like to appear as religious? Because Americans are more likely to elect gays than athiests. I don't begrudge any politican attempting to better the common good as a public servant for wanting to appear mainstream.

Cave Johnson
03-27-2008, 05:03 PM
I'm sure all of Obama's disciples will be along shortly to let us all know that Rudy's guy isn't Rudy and Rudy can disagree with him and it shouldn't matter....

I think TJ was right that this will be an attack on all religion. I think it'll come from the media in a way to paint Wright as normal, more than to attack everyone just to attack.

The point is the hypocrisy in the coverage rather than the allegation that Rudy supports or engages in the inappropriate touching of alter boys (which is of course untrue).

Every religion has a few teachings (either by the religious body or prominent leaders) which would be considered crazy by many (i.e., Mormons & magic underpants, Fundamentalists & the bible is the literal word of God, etc.). So from my way of thinking, Wright's comments, while certainly not mainstream beliefs, are normal of religion in general.

pikesome
03-27-2008, 05:46 PM
Why would politicians like to appear as religious? Because Americans are more likely to elect gays than athiests. I don't begrudge any politican attempting to better the common good as a public servant for wanting to appear mainstream.

What?

Going to church so "The Voters" can see you being religious is crap. EOS.

Ask the Pharisees.

patteeu
03-28-2008, 07:42 AM
Or Pat's desire to change the subject away from the fact that Romney belonged to the Mormon Church while it discriminated against blacks.

It goes every which way.

I don't remember ever trying to change the subject away from that. The only time I can remember commenting on it was when I compared 30 years ago (the point at which Romney's church reformed itself) with 20 years of enthusiastic and ongoing association (Obama's relationship with Wright). And even in that case, iirc, it was a comment in the midst of an Obama supporter trying to shift the focus of the conversation away from Wright/Obama.

BucEyedPea
03-28-2008, 08:15 AM
I can understand why Obama continued to go to that church for 20 years. I think he had no father figure who was like him—black. He was seeking an identity. When a person has a life-changing impact on one's life, it's hard to disconnect from them. Between seeking an identity and undergoing conversion ( a major life changing even in many people's lives) I think this was such an experience for Obama. Wright is a man that obviously impacted his life in a major way. Why would one disconnect from that?

patteeu
03-28-2008, 09:51 AM
I can understand why Obama continued to go to that church for 20 years. I think he had no father figure who was like him—black. He was seeking an identity. When a person has a life-changing impact on one's life, it's hard to disconnect from them. Between seeking an identity and undergoing conversion ( a major life changing even in many people's lives) I think this was such an experience for Obama. Wright is a man that obviously impacted his life in a major way. Why would one disconnect from that?

If a bright young man, seeking a father figure, found one in Karl Marx or Woodrow Wilson, maintained a 20 year relationship with him, and considered him a mentor, would you vote for that young man?