PDA

View Full Version : These "parents" should face criminal charges


Pages : 1 [2]

Pestilence
03-28-2008, 04:12 PM
You do not know that the other kids were not diabetic and had the same symptoms. If this girl had type I diabetes there is a very good chance that the other three did as well and if they did, or any one of them did, who is to say that they had the same symptoms and recovered? In that light what would a prudent parent do if they saw the same symptoms in a second child? They would have done what worked before, prayer and treating them as they did the first child. This is speculation but it bears something to think about. Did the other kids have diabetes and did they show those same symptoms?

You understand that they were not doctors yet you still blame them for not recognizing the symptoms that could have been many other other problems? I find that amazing to say the least.

Also, are you aware that diabetes is generally inherited from the parents? My mothers side of the family almost all had adult onset/type II in their lives. My mother dies of complications from diabetes, should I be criminally liable and in jail for not getting her to the doctor when she had symptoms? I had been trained as an EMT at the time of her death.

The other three kids had

The only problem is...is that your Mom was an adult.....not a child who couldn't care for themselves.

Jenson71
03-28-2008, 04:14 PM
You do not know that the other kids were not diabetic and had the same symptoms.

It is positive their other children did not have untreated diabetic ketoacidosis.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 04:18 PM
It is positive their other children did not have untreated diabetic ketoacidosis.

You do not know that, there is no way you can know that. You are grasping at straws to defend your point. It's not working.

Tell me, can ketoacidosis be reversed without medical treatment? What level of ketoacidosis cannot be reversed without medical treatment? When do the symptoms of ketoacidosis go critical? How many of the symptoms are present up to the time that ketoacidosis cannot be reversed without medication or treatment?

Jenson71
03-28-2008, 04:23 PM
You do not know that, there is no way you can know that. You are grasping at straws to defend your point. It's not working.


Untreated diabetic ketoacidosis is fatal.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 04:24 PM
The only problem is...is that your Mom was an adult.....not a child who couldn't care for themselves.

That may be, but the commentary indicates that she could have been neglected by my dad or by me and my family when she was showing signs of ketoacidosis and we did not call an ambulance. In a diabetic coma you are unresponsive. Severe ketoacidosis causes a patient to be totally conscious or in a coma. In my clinical workups I had to assist Nurses and Practitioners jam a catheter through a man's stomach so they could drain his bladder. They did so because he was in a coma (one of the stages of ketoacidosis ).

The as the story stated they were with her when she went unconscious, so this was not a long term situation that they ignored, they were treating the girl with what they knew.

Pestilence
03-28-2008, 04:25 PM
That may be, but the commentary indicates that she could have been neglected by my dad or by me and my family when she was showing signs of ketoacidosis and we did not call an ambulance. In a diabetic coma you are unresponsive. Severe ketoacidosis causes a patient to be totally conscious or in a coma. In my clinical workups I had to assist Nurses and Practitioners jam a catheter through a man's stomach so they could drain his bladder. They did so because he was in a coma (one of the stages of ketoacidosis ).

The as the story stated they were with her when she went unconscious, so this was not a long term situation that they ignored, they were treating the girl with what they knew.

Ummm....a month of of puking, not eating or drinking anything......that might be some evidence as something being wrong.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 04:26 PM
Untreated diabetic ketoacidosis is fatal.

You totally ignored the rest of the post. Go back and respond to the questions. If you have to ask mommy do so, but I want you to know that untreated diabetic ketoacidosis does not go from a kid playing to fatal in 15 minutes, if you feel that you can prove it does, please do so.

Adept Havelock
03-28-2008, 04:26 PM
And where do we draw the line?


At the line of laws prohibiting Child Neglect and Endangerment.

If the parents had allowed the child to starve because they belong to a faith that teaches them the sick can be fed spiritually by prayer, they would be just as culpable. I know their faith doesn't teach that, but it seems a very reasonable comparison to make, IMO.

It's pretty simple. We already have laws in this country which restrict a certain amount of "freedom of religion". As I mentioned before in this thread, a Rastifarian isn't free to blaze up on religious grounds, nor is a "Christian Identity" member allowed to enslave another human being. However, both those faiths condone those particular (illegal) actions.

There's really no difference here, AFAICS.

The fact those religions, like the one the parents of the dead child practice are fringe (or cults, if you prefer) is irrelevant under the 1'st amendment.

Do the parents have the right to ignore medical care in favor of prayer? Absolutely.

Do they have the right to deny their child medical care in favor of prayer? As the child isn't of the age of consent, IMO, no. I'm pleased most state laws seem to agree with this position.

Sorry, but the fact that "The parents heart was in the right place" doesn't excuse ignoring medical treatment for their sick child.

JMO.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 04:27 PM
Ummm....a month of of puking, not eating or drinking anything......that might be some evidence as something being wrong.

Ever had the flu? Ever had an intestinal virus? Those symptoms are not only present with diabetes.

You know better than that.

Pestilence
03-28-2008, 04:27 PM
Ever had the flu? Ever had an intestinal virus? Those symptoms are not only present with diabetes.

You know better than that.

For an f'ng month?

You know better than that.

Jenson71
03-28-2008, 04:30 PM
You totally ignored the rest of the post. Go back and respond to the questions. If you have to ask mommy do so, but I want you to know that untreated diabetic ketoacidosis does not go from a kid playing to fatal in 15 minutes, if you feel that you can prove it does, please do so.

It sounds like it took about a month in this case.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 04:30 PM
For an f'ng month?

You know better than that.

Have you checked out the flu this season? Yes for a month or longer and death can occur due to the flu.

If you are involved in the medical field remind me never to use you as a care giver. Do some research and then post, you are wrong here.

Pestilence
03-28-2008, 04:31 PM
Have you checked out the flu this season? Yes for a month or longer and death can occur due to the flu.

If you are involved in the medical field remind me never to use you as a care giver. Do some research and then post, you are wrong here.

So you're telling me that you can't tell the difference between the flu and diabetes? Remind ME to never use you as a caregiver.

Quit arguing just to argue.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 04:32 PM
It sounds like it took about a month in this case.

As I said, when is ketoacidosis so severe that it cannot be reversed by treatment? When does the patient go to a coma? How long can you be in ketoacidosis and a coma and still recover? Can you spontaneous recover from ketoacidosis without medical intervention?

Those questions are what I think everyone is overlooking. I don't have all the answers, but I do have resources that can help me get answers and I will do so over the weekend.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 04:35 PM
So you're telling me that you can't tell the difference between the flu and diabetes? Remind ME to never use you as a caregiver.

Quit arguing just to argue.

I'm telling you that the symptoms given are not particular to diabetes. You are not playing with a full deck here. Each of those symptoms can be present in a person without diabetes and in varying degrees of severity without being life threatening.

You seem to be the one arguing just for the sake of arguing. You don't know what you are talking about. At least I've had the luxury, if you would like to use that term, of having two years of training to help victims that might be suffering illness or injury.

If you are going to talk out of your six, go back to WPI with Goatse.

Jenson71
03-28-2008, 04:38 PM
Can you spontaneous recover from ketoacidosis without medical intervention?

No.

Your questions aren't as important as you think. They don't seem to change the details here. When your child is weak, nausating, vomiting, and has extreme thirst for about ONE MONTH, you get medical help.

Adept Havelock
03-28-2008, 04:40 PM
No.

Your questions aren't as important as you think. They don't seem to change the details here. When your child is weak, nausating, vomiting, and has extreme thirst for about ONE MONTH, you get medical help.

Especially when other family members (who appear to have a far stronger grip on common sense and reality) are begging you to.

Like I've been saying, this is already covered under existing law in most places. Leaving a child in that condition for a month as it worsens is absolutely child neglect and/or endangerment.

Edit- it does appear from the new article that the child may have taken a dramatic turn for the worse in a fairly short time. If that proves to be the case, it should be taken in consideration by the DA.

Pestilence
03-28-2008, 04:41 PM
No.

Your questions aren't as important as you think. They don't seem to change the details here. When your child is weak, nausating, vomiting, and has extreme thirst for about ONE MONTH, you get medical help.

Thank you. My point exactly. If you're praying for a month and nothing is happening....then common sense says take your kid to a hospital.

Jenson71
03-28-2008, 04:42 PM
Police: 3 children removed from home where girl died of diabetes
By ROBERT IMRIE | Associated Press Writer

WAUSAU, Wis. - Three siblings of a Weston girl who died from untreated diabetes as her parents prayed for healing instead of taking her to a doctor have been removed from the home to stay with other relatives, police said Friday.

An agreement was reached between the parents and social services experts that the move would be in the best interests of everyone, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

The children are not in danger, he said.

"They were checked out by physicians. ... Physically, they are fine," he said. "There is no physical evidence of abuse or neglect. None."

Madeline Neumann, 11, died Sunday at her rural Weston home from an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes as her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, prayed for her to get better. Her mother said she never expected her daughter, whom she called Kara, to die.

The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, Leilani Neumann said.

The parents told investigators Madeline last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots.

The children removed from the home range in age from 13 to 16 and are expected to return to their parents once an investigation of the girl's death wraps up, Vergin said.

He would not specify where they are living, other than with another family member.

Vergin said he expects to forward the police investigation of the death to the Marathon County district attorney Monday or Tuesday. Among evidence still being reviewed are journals and computers seized from the family's home the day after the girl died, he said.

A search warrant request said investigators were interested in whether the family sought "medical guidance from computers, books or the Internet."

Vergin said his agency's final report will make no recommendations on possible charges against the parents, leaving that up to the district attorney to decide.

"There is no intent. They didn't want their child to die. They thought what they were doing was the right thing," he said. "They believed up to the time she stopped breathing she was going to get better. They just thought it was a spiritual attack. They believed if they prayed enough she would get through it."

The family did not know the girl had diabetes, Vergin said. An autopsy determined Madeline died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body.

Janine Geske, a Marquette University law professor who was a state Supreme Court justice from 1993 to 1998, said a possible criminal charge the parents could face is second-degree reckless homicide, which requires proof of "recklessly causing the death of another human being."

But Wisconsin has laws on the books that also say a parent cannot be accused of abuse or neglect of a child if in good faith they selected prayer as a basis of treatment for a disease, Geske said.

If the district attorney believes the parents did not have a "good-faith belief" that the girl was about to die and they had a strong belief in relying on prayer for treatment, it would be difficult to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime occurred, Geske said.

New details emerged Friday on how quickly the girl's health deteriorated.

"We are getting people who saw this girl a week before she passed away and she appeared fine," Vergin said.

The girl became bedridden last Saturday, he said.

According to the search warrant request, the girl's grandmother told investigators that the girl had been ill for several days, she was "very tired," she wanted to be held by her mom and by last Saturday she couldn't walk or talk.

The grandmother advised Mrs. Neumann to take the girl to the doctor but the mother said her daughter "would be fine and God would heal her," the court record said.

The grandmother eventually contacted a daughter-in-law in California who called police last Sunday on a non-emergency line, reporting the girl was in a coma and needed medical help. An ambulance was dispatched to the home shortly before some friends in the home called 911 to report the girl had stopped breathing, authorities said.

The family moved to Weston, a suburb of Wausau in central Wisconsin, from California about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives, the Neumanns said.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-ap-wi-prayerdeath,0,5766258.story

Coach
03-28-2008, 04:47 PM
Even myself, I feel that they should be charged, but the Wisconsin Criminal Code simply states that:

"(6) TREATMENT THROUGH PRAYER.

A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing permitted under s. 48.981 (3) 4. or 448.03 (6) in lieu of medical or surgical treatment."

Adept Havelock
03-28-2008, 04:48 PM
Police: 3 children removed from home where girl died of diabetes
By ROBERT IMRIE | Associated Press Writer

WAUSAU, Wis. - Three siblings of a Weston girl who died from untreated diabetes as her parents prayed for healing instead of taking her to a doctor have been removed from the home to stay with other relatives, police said Friday.

An agreement was reached between the parents and social services experts that the move would be in the best interests of everyone, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

The children are not in danger, he said.

"They were checked out by physicians. ... Physically, they are fine," he said. "There is no physical evidence of abuse or neglect. None."

Madeline Neumann, 11, died Sunday at her rural Weston home from an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes as her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, prayed for her to get better. Her mother said she never expected her daughter, whom she called Kara, to die.

The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, Leilani Neumann said.

The parents told investigators Madeline last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots.

The children removed from the home range in age from 13 to 16 and are expected to return to their parents once an investigation of the girl's death wraps up, Vergin said.

He would not specify where they are living, other than with another family member.

Vergin said he expects to forward the police investigation of the death to the Marathon County district attorney Monday or Tuesday. Among evidence still being reviewed are journals and computers seized from the family's home the day after the girl died, he said.

A search warrant request said investigators were interested in whether the family sought "medical guidance from computers, books or the Internet."

Vergin said his agency's final report will make no recommendations on possible charges against the parents, leaving that up to the district attorney to decide.

"There is no intent. They didn't want their child to die. They thought what they were doing was the right thing," he said. "They believed up to the time she stopped breathing she was going to get better. They just thought it was a spiritual attack. They believed if they prayed enough she would get through it."

The family did not know the girl had diabetes, Vergin said. An autopsy determined Madeline died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body.

Janine Geske, a Marquette University law professor who was a state Supreme Court justice from 1993 to 1998, said a possible criminal charge the parents could face is second-degree reckless homicide, which requires proof of "recklessly causing the death of another human being."

But Wisconsin has laws on the books that also say a parent cannot be accused of abuse or neglect of a child if in good faith they selected prayer as a basis of treatment for a disease, Geske said.

If the district attorney believes the parents did not have a "good-faith belief" that the girl was about to die and they had a strong belief in relying on prayer for treatment, it would be difficult to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime occurred, Geske said.

New details emerged Friday on how quickly the girl's health deteriorated.

"We are getting people who saw this girl a week before she passed away and she appeared fine," Vergin said.

The girl became bedridden last Saturday, he said.

According to the search warrant request, the girl's grandmother told investigators that the girl had been ill for several days, she was "very tired," she wanted to be held by her mom and by last Saturday she couldn't walk or talk.

The grandmother advised Mrs. Neumann to take the girl to the doctor but the mother said her daughter "would be fine and God would heal her," the court record said.

The grandmother eventually contacted a daughter-in-law in California who called police last Sunday on a non-emergency line, reporting the girl was in a coma and needed medical help. An ambulance was dispatched to the home shortly before some friends in the home called 911 to report the girl had stopped breathing, authorities said.

The family moved to Weston, a suburb of Wausau in central Wisconsin, from California about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives, the Neumanns said.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-ap-wi-prayerdeath,0,5766258.story

I'm not surprised the other children are fine, but I'm glad the state is taking action to make certain of that.

I'm sure these people love their children, and were acting out of what they believed to be correct. However, as Ignorance is no excuse for the law, I'm pretty sure just having your heart in the right place isn't a legitimate excuse to ignore medical treatment for a child in a coma.

Nor should it be. JMO.

Hydrae
03-28-2008, 04:54 PM
I'm not surprised the other children are fine, but I'm glad the state is taking action to make certain of that.

I'm sure these people love their children, and were acting out of what they believed to be correct. However, as Ignorance is no excuse for the law, I'm pretty sure just having your heart in the right place isn't a legitimate excuse to ignore medical treatment for a child in a coma.

Nor should it be. JMO.

You do recognize this is only during the investigation, right? They will be free to go back to the parents and this "dangerous" situation after that is completed.

Coach
03-28-2008, 05:03 PM
Ever had the flu? Ever had an intestinal virus? Those symptoms are not only present with diabetes.

You know better than that.

Hello? A month of of puking, not eating or drinking anything, and that condition getting worse as each passing day, there IS something wrong, and going to see a doctor might be a smart idea.

The problem is, how the hell will you know that you have diabetes or a flu/intestinal virus or even AIDS without even going to a doctor? You just can't "Oh ok, I just got a flu" only to find out that you die off from a diabetes that went untreated.

Adept Havelock
03-28-2008, 05:04 PM
You do recognize this is only during the investigation, right? They will be free to go back to the parents and this "dangerous" situation after that is completed.

:spock:

As I said, I'm not surprised the children are fine, but I'm glad the state is taking action to insure this.

I have no idea where you inferred or why you assume from my statement that I believe it is a permanent arrangement. For the record, yes, I have read the article, comprehended what I've read, and retained that information. Thanks for your concern.

You do recognize that I've never once claimed "The Parents are the debbil" anywhere in the thread, don't you? I'm pretty sure my position is consistent that their hearts are in the right place, just terribly misguided (IMO).

Furthermore, I'd think the outcome of the investigation and the DA's decision to press charges or not will play a part. I won't be surprised to see the kids back with their parents, but it's not a "sure thing" at this point, as you are claiming.

Hopefully local lawmakers will emulate many other states, and change the exemption. There's no excuse I can see for not seeking treatment for a child in a coma. Are you free to make that decision for yourself as an adult? Absolutely. Are you free to inflict that decision on a child? I think not, considering exisiting laws against child neglect and endangerment.

Then there's the other little thing about how the State already has declared "Freedom of Religion" isn't an absolute (see previous examples regarding Christian Identity militants and Rastafarians). I see no difference in the "freedom of religion" claimed by those fringe types, nor the fringe beliefs of these parents.

It wouldn't surprise me if the kids do end up back with their parents (and I'd hope they do, as the parents seem loving, albeit misguided on this one point).

I only hope for the other kids sake the parents have learned a little common sense...namely that when your child is ill and getting progressively worse/ seriously ill / in a coma...the intelligent and compassionate course of action is to get them medical attention. This, at least until the child is of the age of majority, and able to legally decide for themselves if they want to indulge in such (IMO) foolishness.

banyon
03-28-2008, 05:28 PM
You do recognize this is only during the investigation, right? They will be free to go back to the parents and this "dangerous" situation after that is completed.

What leads you to conclude this?

Brock
03-28-2008, 05:30 PM
If you don't take your kid to the doctor when he's sick, you don't give a damn about the kid, period.

Sure-Oz
03-28-2008, 05:31 PM
Ummm....a month of of puking, not eating or drinking anything......that might be some evidence as something being wrong.

Exactly and i know how that feels cause i went 2 months on this, and after about a 2 week straight threshold we saw dr's. I'd be dead if it wasn't for going to see the dr, glad my parents aren't ****ing retarded and assumed god would take care of me naturally. Yes they prayed for my recovery etc and to get better but they did what they needed to do to get me better. It took a full year to recover completely. Not to get off the subject completely.

chagrin
03-28-2008, 05:33 PM
If you don't take your kid to the doctor when he's sick, you don't give a damn about the kid, period.

I agree with that, medical science was given to us for a reason; these cases aren't reported much but when they are, it just makes me angry; There's a fine line between faith and horse shit.

Sure-Oz
03-28-2008, 05:35 PM
I agree with that, medical science was given to us for a reason; these cases aren't reported much but when they are, it just makes me angry; There's a fine line between faith and horse shit.

Apparently faith and common sense don't go hand in hand according to the argument that the parents had their child in mind etc etc

crazycoffey
03-28-2008, 06:06 PM
Were they Mennonite or Omish? Many of them don't believe in modern meds / treatments. Is that something that should be considered "illegal" or "immoral" because it's not the way you believe?

I'm a late comer to this thread, sorry if this topic was already brought up.....

MIAdragon
03-28-2008, 06:21 PM
Were they Mennonite or Omish? Many of them don't believe in modern meds / treatments. Is that something that should be considered "illegal" or "immoral" because it's not the way you believe?

I'm a late comer to this thread, sorry if this topic was already brought up.....

<O:p</O:p
The Amish do use modern medical facilities.

http://www.thirdway.com/Menno/glossary.asp?ID=42

Most Mennonite and Amish groups take advantage of modern medicine. They go to doctors, take pills and medicines, and enter the hospital when necessary. In fact, because of the opportunities for service, medicine and health care have traditionally been among the first professions entered by persons who leave the farm and get higher learning.
Like most Christians, Mennonites and Amish believe that healing is a gift from God. “The Lord gives and the Lord takes away.” This is not a rejection of modern medicine; it is simply an acceptance of the fact that after one has done all that is humanly possible, one must leave all in God’s hands.
<O:p</O:p

alnorth
03-28-2008, 06:24 PM
Again, that is your opinion based on your emotions.

Wait and see if the courts even touch this.

Is it bad that the girl died? Yes it is.

Were the parents criminally negligent? No, I don't think so.

They will not be touched ONLY because Wisconsin has a retarded state law explicitely protecting them. Without that state law, in just about any other state they would very likely be convicted. It has pretty much been well-established that you dont have a constitutional right to neglect your children to death because the invisible man in the sky told you to do so.

alnorth
03-28-2008, 06:26 PM
Let's just say the article is correct in its reporting.

"She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness"

Do you really think only a doctor can tell that this is a problem?

Agreed, unless that person is an idiot (and thus unfit to be a parent) or an insane zealot.

Coach
03-28-2008, 06:30 PM
They will not be touched ONLY because Wisconsin has a retarded state law explicitely protecting them. Without that state law, in just about any other state they would very likely be convicted. It has pretty much been well-established that you dont have a constitutional right to neglect your children to death because the invisible man in the sky told you to do so.


They can be

By 2002, 38 states have laws that permit parents to reject medical treatment for their children in favor of faith healing. However, in most of those states, the law specifies that if a child's condition is life-threatening, then a physician must be consulted.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical1.htm

Now, the question is, did they refuse any medical treatment when it was apparent that her condition was, indeed, life-threatening? Without the proper treatment, yes, it is life-threatening.

alnorth
03-28-2008, 06:30 PM
... but I want you to know that untreated diabetic ketoacidosis does not go from a kid playing to fatal in 15 minutes, if you feel that you can prove it does, please do so.

You are explaining exactly why these parents are horribly unfit, and would be criminals nearly anywhere outside Wisconsin. This condition does not make you go from playing to fatal in 15 minutes, it takes weeks of willfully and neglectfully ignoring obvious signs of bad health.

crazycoffey
03-28-2008, 06:33 PM
<O:p</O:p
The Amish do use modern medical facilities.

http://www.thirdway.com/Menno/glossary.asp?ID=42

Most Mennonite and Amish groups take advantage of modern medicine.
<O:p</O:p


I Know, that's basically what I said.....


Were they Mennonite or Omish? Many of them don't believe in modern meds / treatments.


The point wasn't to start a question about thier religion, it was more about the thread topic. And it was only brought up to add another perspective to the conversation.

MIAdragon
03-28-2008, 06:39 PM
I Know, that's basically what I said.....





The point wasn't to start a question about thier religion, it was more about the thread topic. And it was only brought up to add another perspective to the conversation.

http://www.snapoffracing.com/forums/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif

crazycoffey
03-28-2008, 07:00 PM
http://www.snapoffracing.com/forums/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif


what ever - ass.....

a1na2
03-28-2008, 08:08 PM
Hello? A month of of puking, not eating or drinking anything, and that condition getting worse as each passing day, there IS something wrong, and going to see a doctor might be a smart idea.

The problem is, how the hell will you know that you have diabetes or a flu/intestinal virus or even AIDS without even going to a doctor? You just can't "Oh ok, I just got a flu" only to find out that you die off from a diabetes that went untreated.

It's was the decision of the parents. Do you have kids? What do you do if your kid gets sick? What happens if they get sick for extended periods and nothing comes of it? Nobody knows the history of the story other than what was on the internet and that is a very short story,.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 08:21 PM
I give up.

You can belileve exactly what you want to believe about the situation.

Virtually every comment damning the parents are coming from those that do not practice any kind of religion.

There are also quite a few medical experts here that know exactly what the problem was (20/20 view of the situation) and have never been around anyone that was sick or diabetic.

I'll be happy to witness the further erosion of your freedoms and rights.

Good night.

Brock
03-28-2008, 08:22 PM
I give up.

You can belileve exactly what you want to believe about the situation.

Virtually every comment damning the parents are coming from those that do not practice any kind of religion.

There are also quite a few medical experts here that know exactly what the problem was (20/20 view of the situation) and have never been around anyone that was sick or diabetic.

I'll be happy to witness the further erosion of your freedoms and rights.

Good night.

You aren't really a Christian anyway, Tom.

munkey
03-28-2008, 08:32 PM
these threads make me want to look at naked women...to the girlie thread i go :-)

DaneMcCloud
03-28-2008, 08:35 PM
It's was the decision of the parents. Do you have kids? What do you do if your kid gets sick? What happens if they get sick for extended periods and nothing comes of it? Nobody knows the history of the story other than what was on the internet and that is a very short story,.

This has got to be the dumbest post of all time.

The parents have a responsibility to protect their children. They don't get a f*cking free pass just because they happen to believe in "God".

In case you hadn't noticed, this is the 21st century. It's not 100 AD. Advances in medicine are made every single day and ANY parent who would willfully exclude and prevent their children from proper medical care should be brought up on charges of child endangerment to say the least.

Faith in God doesn't supercede the caring of another human being, especially when that human being is your 11 year old daughter.

I can't even fathom how you can even muster any type of defense towards theses indefensible people, Tom. Un-f*cking-believable.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 09:19 PM
This has got to be the dumbest post of all time.

The parents have a responsibility to protect their children. They don't get a f*cking free pass just because they happen to believe in "God".

In case you hadn't noticed, this is the 21st century. It's not 100 AD. Advances in medicine are made every single day and ANY parent who would willfully exclude and prevent their children from proper medical care should be brought up on charges of child endangerment to say the least.

Faith in God doesn't supercede the caring of another human being, especially when that human being is your 11 year old daughter.

I can't even fathom how you can even muster any type of defense towards theses indefensible people, Tom. Un-f*cking-believable.

What I find appalling is that you have basically told these people that they didn't love their kid or do what ever was within their belief to help that kid. You are looking in from the outside and therefore cannot know what was in their head or in their heart.

This is not a simple case of neglect as you wish it was. The parents are caring parents, just because they do not fit your expectation does not diminish that fact. My guess would be that you have never had faith in God or anything else other than your own smugness.

What I've noticed is that you, and others like you, feel the need to intrude where you do not belong. As was said many times by me and others, it is a shame that that girl died because the parents had faith in their beliefs. There is no law that was broken in this situation. Parents treated a sick child to the best of their ability without depending on someone else other than their God and their Faith. You can't handle the fact that people believe in their creator so much that they could take what you consider a risk with the life of their child.

Have you ever put a kid in your car without a seatbelt? If you have you are more guilty of neglect than this family is, not to mention that you have actually broken a law. These people did what they felt was right based on their religious belief. You cannot force your personal will on anyone in this case.

As for your attempt to insult and call me names, well good for you, does it make you feel llike a big man? I've got to tell you, I've been there and done that and all you are doing is admitting that you do not have an answer and are striking out at anyone that doesn't like your particular take on the situation.

Let the case go to court and you will find out that they are not criminally liable for believing in God nor are they going to be prosecuted for not going to a doctor because they could not identify a sickness that could have been any one of a number of minor but experated health problems.

Pestilence
03-28-2008, 09:23 PM
I give up.

You can belileve exactly what you want to believe about the situation.

Virtually every comment damning the parents are coming from those that do not practice any kind of religion.

There are also quite a few medical experts here that know exactly what the problem was (20/20 view of the situation) and have never been around anyone that was sick or diabetic.

I'll be happy to witness the further erosion of your freedoms and rights.

Good night.

Don't assume that people who make comments don't practice any kind of religion.

You don't have that right.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 09:28 PM
Don't assume that people who make comments don't practice any kind of religion.

You don't have that right.


Sure I do, at least that seems to be the jist of what is going on here. doesn't matter what you do as long as someone else can exprerss their will on what you are or are not doing. Isn't that what you want? the communist way?

Coach
03-28-2008, 09:30 PM
It's was the decision of the parents. Do you have kids? What do you do if your kid gets sick? What happens if they get sick for extended periods and nothing comes of it? Nobody knows the history of the story other than what was on the internet and that is a very short story,.

No, I don't have any kids, but I can goddamn guarentee you that if they were to get sick, and their condition does indeed, in fact, gets worse within a 5-7 day period, you can bet your ass that I'll be taking him/her to the doctor to get it checked out. I also can guarentee you that I wouldn't deny my child of getting medical attention if needed.

I don't want to be that parent that if I just be a dumbass hard parent and tell my kid to "Walk it off" only to find out that it died from diabetes. Then I'm gonna feel really shitty about it for the rest of my life, becuase of the fact that I didn't do an damn thing to help it or to at least prevent it. Overall, I failed at being a parent.

If they get sick for extended periods and nothing comes out of it, then that's great news. It's still taking the safe route, just to be "sure." I will not take any chances. I can, to a point, respect people's religion when it comes to denying doctors, but at the same time, isn't that's one of the reason why God gave us this great technology that we live in? I pity the people who don't take advantage of this great technology that God gave us, just becuase they don't believe in "doctors."

As a person who does pray and read the bible, I believe just like in many other parts of your faith, a person has to do their part in the process by taking the child to get the best medical care available while at the same time, realizing that the overall result is in God's hands. God created the natural order of things for a reason. He created humans to have rational thought and innovative thinking for a reason. There's no reason to turn away from the results of that when it comes to health. I am deeply opposed to what these parents did, and they should pay for the crime that they committed, which is child neglect and endangerment.

MIAdragon
03-28-2008, 09:35 PM
Sure I do, at least that seems to be the jist of what is going on here. doesn't matter what you do as long as someone else can exprerss their will on what you are or are not doing. Isn't that what you want? the communist way?


Id just like to think that someone is looking out for those who cant do it themselves. What ever happens to the Parents the child is the one that looses.

crazycoffey
03-28-2008, 09:35 PM
:banghead:

a1na2
03-28-2008, 09:37 PM
No, I don't have any kids, but I can goddamn guarentee you that if they were to get sick, and their condition does indeed, in fact, gets worse within a 5-7 day period, you can bet your ass that I'll be taking him/her to the doctor to get it checked out. I also can guarentee you that I wouldn't deny my child of

I don't want to be that parent that if I just be a dumbass hard parent and tell my kid to "Walk it off" only to find out that it died from diabetes. Then I'm gonna feel really shitty about it for the rest of my life, becuase of the fact that I didn't do an damn thing to help it or to at least prevent it. Overall, I failed at being a parent.

If they get sick for extended periods and nothing comes out of it, then that's great news. It's still taking the safe route, just to be "sure." I will not take any chances. I can, to a point, respect people's religion when it comes to denying doctors, but at the same time, isn't that's one of the reason why God gave us this great technology that we live in? I pity the people who don't take advantage of this great technology that God gave us, just becuase they don't believe in "doctors."

As a person who does pray and read the bible, I believe just like in many other parts of your faith, a person has to do their part in the process by taking the child to get the best medical care available while at the same time, realizing that the overall result is in God's hands. God created the natural order of things for a reason. He created humans to have rational thought and innovative thinking for a reason. There's no reason to turn away from the results of that when it comes to health. I am deeply opposed to what these parents did, and they should pay for the crime that they committed, which is child neglect and endangerment.

Your faith does not preclude using doctors so you don't really have a valid point to make here. I'm not being a smart ass, but those people did not feel that the doctor was the answer in this situation.

I would never wait to take my kid or grand kid to the doctor, but I am not those people and I do not have the same religious belief that they did. I also know that it is not my job to make sure that everyone that has a kid does exactly the right thing according to a1na2, or coach or jensen or whomever. I do not have the right to impose my belief system on them and neither does anyone else.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 09:44 PM
Id just like to think that someone is looking out for those who cant do it themselves. What ever happens to the Parents the child is the one that looses.

Again, you are assuming, based on a very biased and incomplete assessment, that the parents were not looking out for their kid to the best of their ability. The best of their ability is not measured by what you or I think is the right thing to do, it is based on what they think is the best thing to do at the time that they did it. In this case they did not feel that the sickness was as bad as it obviously was.

I can't say this enough, we don't have to like what happened and more than likely none of us would ever let that happen to our family intentionally, but what if? What if your kid had what you considered a small problem and you didn't react with the right amount of responsibility and they died. Are you going to accept criminal litigation because you didn't know it was that serious?

How many people have choked to death because nobody noticed that they were turning blue? How many people have choked to death with people watching because they thought they were goofing around? That may sound outrageous, but things like that happen.

Face it, life is hard and then you die and no matter how hard you try to avoid the dying part you cannot do it. You don't want to die, I don't want to die, but we are going to, it's just a matter of time.

Blaming these people for doing what they thought was right in the eyes of their God does nothing to change the fact that it will happen again and again and there will be nothing that you can do about it, nor should you feel that it is your responsibility to interfere in their life.

Coach
03-28-2008, 09:47 PM
Your faith does not preclude using doctors so you don't really have a valid point to make here. I'm not being a smart ass, but those people did not feel that the doctor was the answer in this situation.

I would never wait to take my kid or grand kid to the doctor, but I am not those people and I do not have the same religious belief that they did. I also know that it is not my job to make sure that everyone that has a kid does exactly the right thing according to a1na2, or coach or jensen or whomever. I do not have the right to impose my belief system on them and neither does anyone else.

Actually, I feel, just like everyone else in here, have a valid point in here. I know you aren't being a smart ass, you're just sharing your opinion, and you are entitled to your own opinion, just like everybody else is to theirs.

My opinion, I just think they made a wrong decision, becuase they did not consult the doctor when it was OBVIOUS that the child's condition has been getting worse each passing day. But how could they not feel that the doctor was the answer in this solution? It's like if you walked by a person who is bleeding badly on the side of the sidewalk/alleyway, who just got the shit kicked out of them by a group of thugs, should you just ignore him and walk away? Deny him any help?

It's like "Oh she'll be okay, it's just a cold, she'll get over it. We'll pray to God for help." Look, praying and asking for help is great, and I respect that, but as a person, YOU have to do your part, in order for it to work. In order to prevent it, in other words, God's miracle, the doctor/nurse would have positively ID'd the sickness and provide the proper treatment, and this child would be back out playing in the sandbox in no time. That's God's miracle, to me.

I'm not telling them or anybody how to "live" their lives, but what I am telling everybody here is that I believe common sense was missing in this part, regardless of religion.

crazycoffey
03-28-2008, 09:49 PM
I wonder if this shit can be moved to DC....

Coach
03-28-2008, 09:51 PM
I wonder if this shit can be moved to DC....

Uh, doubt it. It is missing the following criterias

1. Bush
2. Iraq
3. Terrorists
4. Obama/Clinton/McCain
5. Political scandals

Maybe the next time though. :D

crazycoffey
03-28-2008, 09:55 PM
Uh, doubt it. It is missing the following criterias

1. Bush - is hated or liked by everyone on the board
2. Iraq - never should have went, but now we are "invested" - I may be going over soon
3. Terrorists - only good terrorist is a dead terrorist
4. Obama/Clinton/McCain - McCain, the lesser of the three evils
5. Political scandals - military intelligence (are we playing the oxymoron game?)

Maybe the next time though. :D


Now we filled all the criteria, pack your bags!


:D

a1na2
03-28-2008, 10:04 PM
Actually, I feel, just like everyone else in here, have a valid point in here. I know you aren't being a smart ass, you're just sharing your opinion, and you are entitled to your own opinion, just like everybody else is to theirs.

My opinion, I just think they made a wrong decision, becuase they did not consult the doctor when it was OBVIOUS that the child's condition has been getting worse each passing day. But how could they not feel that the doctor was the answer in this solution? It's like if you walked by a person who is bleeding badly on the side of the sidewalk/alleyway, who just got the shit kicked out of them by a group of thugs, should you just ignore him and walk away? Deny him any help?

It's like "Oh she'll be okay, it's just a cold, she'll get over it. We'll pray to God for help." Look, praying and asking for help is great, and I respect that, but as a person, YOU have to do your part, in order for it to work. In order to prevent it, in other words, God's miracle, the doctor/nurse would have positively ID'd the sickness and provide the proper treatment, and this child would be back out playing in the sandbox in no time. That's God's miracle, to me.

I'm not telling them or anybody how to "live" their lives, but what I am telling everybody here is that I believe common sense was missing in this part, regardless of religion.

I agree with this but then again I don't. Faith has alarge part in what you do when you are in a religion that you believe in.

Some don't believe that you have to do more than ask. I do not think these people prayed over the little girl and walked away. I think they did everything they knew to do to continue helping her. The did not have the need or desire or belief (however way you want to put it) to depend on a doctor to handle this situation.

And I maintain that we cannot force our perceptions of right and wrong into this case as we are not living in their shoes. Those people and the God they serve have to come to grips with the situation. We can, and should, do nothing regarding the incident other than express our understanding of why they acted as they did or the overwhelming outrage shown here about why they acted as they did.

It is not in our charge to judge their actions, nor should it be IMO.

a1na2
03-28-2008, 10:05 PM
Now we filled all the criteria, pack your bags!


:D

Oh coffey, quit y'er whining. If it gets moved, it gets moved. There have been far worse examples of posts here that should have been moved. I think you were even a part of some of them.

DaneMcCloud
03-28-2008, 10:44 PM
What I find appalling is that you have basically told these people that they didn't love their kid or do what ever was within their belief to help that kid. You are looking in from the outside and therefore cannot know what was in their head or in their heart.

This is not a simple case of neglect as you wish it was. The parents are caring parents, just because they do not fit your expectation does not diminish that fact. My guess would be that you have never had faith in God or anything else other than your own smugness.

What I've noticed is that you, and others like you, feel the need to intrude where you do not belong. As was said many times by me and others, it is a shame that that girl died because the parents had faith in their beliefs. There is no law that was broken in this situation. Parents treated a sick child to the best of their ability without depending on someone else other than their God and their Faith. You can't handle the fact that people believe in their creator so much that they could take what you consider a risk with the life of their child.

Have you ever put a kid in your car without a seatbelt? If you have you are more guilty of neglect than this family is, not to mention that you have actually broken a law. These people did what they felt was right based on their religious belief. You cannot force your personal will on anyone in this case.

As for your attempt to insult and call me names, well good for you, does it make you feel llike a big man? I've got to tell you, I've been there and done that and all you are doing is admitting that you do not have an answer and are striking out at anyone that doesn't like your particular take on the situation.

Let the case go to court and you will find out that they are not criminally liable for believing in God nor are they going to be prosecuted for not going to a doctor because they could not identify a sickness that could have been any one of a number of minor but experated health problems.

First off, I've NEVER put a child in a car without a seatbelt.

That being said, you're a f*cking moron. Boo-hoo. No, it doesn't make me "feel like a big man" because in EVERY sense, I AM A BIGGER MAN THAN YOU.

The belief that "God" will somehow heal a sick child is outright lunacy. LUNACY. Without modern medicine, there would be about 5 BILLION less people on this planet. 5 BILLION. Do you think that "God" doesn't want them here because of man-made medicine and advances in science?

Again, how you can defend the actions of this sick and demented family is well beyond the ability for me to comprehend.

It's obvious (and has been obvious for years, whether you post as Tom Ca$h, Believer, or whatever) that you're a kook, nutjob, whacko. And I am truly sorry for anyone outside of this forum that knows you and has to put up with your ridiculous, superstitious drivel.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 06:17 AM
First off, I've NEVER put a child in a car without a seatbelt.

That being said, you're a f*cking moron. Boo-hoo. No, it doesn't make me "feel like a big man" because in EVERY sense, I AM A BIGGER MAN THAN YOU.

The belief that "God" will somehow heal a sick child is outright lunacy. LUNACY. Without modern medicine, there would be about 5 BILLION less people on this planet. 5 BILLION. Do you think that "God" doesn't want them here because of man-made medicine and advances in science?

Again, how you can defend the actions of this sick and demented family is well beyond the ability for me to comprehend.

It's obvious (and has been obvious for years, whether you post as Tom Ca$h, Believer, or whatever) that you're a kook, nutjob, whacko. And I am truly sorry for anyone outside of this forum that knows you and has to put up with your ridiculous, superstitious drivel.

The response that you made shows me that you are not an adult and that you have no answer to the situatation.

Your lack of understanding of the situation in no way makes your view right.

You are attacking me by calling me names which goes further to prove my point that you cannot ever understand something that is based on someone's relligion.

Grow up dude, being childish and petty only makes you look bad.

Duck Dog
03-29-2008, 11:23 AM
Why would I have to spend time in medical journals? I use doctors as needed and stay within the confines of my faith.

I don't think you are the crazy one. You seem quit normal to me. (well no less or more normal than the rest of the peeps around here:))

But I think parents have a responsiblity to provide the best care availbale to their children and if they don't they should be held responsible. Faith in God is no excuss for not providing that care. The child died. They obviously made the wrong decision and now they should pay for it.

DaneMcCloud
03-29-2008, 03:56 PM
The response that you made shows me that you are not an adult and that you have no answer to the situatation.

Your lack of understanding of the situation in no way makes your view right.

You are attacking me by calling me names which goes further to prove my point that you cannot ever understand something that is based on someone's relligion.

Grow up dude, being childish and petty only makes you look bad.

Personally Tom, I don't think you should be treated as an adult. You're a hypocritical, two-faced POS. Period.

If these "parents" had said they didn't take their child to the doctor in the name of Satan, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

If these "parents" were Scientologists, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

If these "parents" were Muslims, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

The only reason you're defending them is for you antiquated, ridiculous belief that an invisible man in the sky is somehow going to cure their daughter of a treatable disease, despite the fact that "prayer" or belief in God has NEVER healed anyone of dangerous and deadly disease.

You want to take Jesus Christ as your Lord & Saviour? Fine. You want to believe that you'll go to heaven by believing? Fine.

But the minute you cross the line into psychotic mysticism is the point in which all bets are off. We live in a civilized society in the 21st century (well, MOST of us do) in America and child endangerment and allowing a child to just whither away and die when medical care could have saved her life is simply barbaric, cruel, uncalled for and criminal.

Get off your f*cking religious high horse.

CosmicPal
03-29-2008, 04:03 PM
...and allowing a child to just whither away and die when medical care could have saved her life is simply barbaric, cruel, uncalled for and criminal.


You forgot blatantly stupid, ignorant, awful, sad, terrible, dumb, frightening, horrible, disgusting, and a great many other adjectives. :D

DenverChief
03-29-2008, 04:09 PM
One poster on here reminds me of listening to a plumber discuss the finer points of astro-physics

a1na2
03-29-2008, 05:19 PM
Personally Tom, I don't think you should be treated as an adult. You're a hypocritical, two-faced POS. Period.

If these "parents" had said they didn't take their child to the doctor in the name of Satan, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

If these "parents" were Scientologists, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

If these "parents" were Muslims, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

The only reason you're defending them is for you antiquated, ridiculous belief that an invisible man in the sky is somehow going to cure their daughter of a treatable disease, despite the fact that "prayer" or belief in God has NEVER healed anyone of dangerous and deadly disease.

You want to take Jesus Christ as your Lord & Saviour? Fine. You want to believe that you'll go to heaven by believing? Fine.

But the minute you cross the line into psychotic mysticism is the point in which all bets are off. We live in a civilized society in the 21st century (well, MOST of us do) in America and child endangerment and allowing a child to just whither away and die when medical care could have saved her life is simply barbaric, cruel, uncalled for and criminal.

Get off your f*cking religious high horse.

It's amazing that all you can do is revert to name calling and insults.


What my stand is has nothing to do with their religion, nor my religion and it has absolutely nothing to do with you. Your will and your concept of right and wrong has nothing to do with this family. They made a choice based on what they believed and felt, and the part that you are forgetting, or do not have the capacity to understand is that
IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHATSOEVER!

I have nothing to do with Scientology, I have nothing to do with any other group and that is just the point, it's none of my business just as it is none of your business.

As a child you are outraged and calling me names to the nth degree and it only makes you look like an uneducated fool, which I personally feel that you have to be to not understand that whatever they did, why they did it and the results of what they did is ABSOLUTELY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHATSOEVER!

Now, Mr. "I'm so much smarter and better than the rest of the world"
Which part of the equation do you misunderstand? What law did they break? They did what they could, when they could, with the means that they could. Where is the criminal intent? What law did they break?

Just because you feel that it is wrong does not mean that they broke laws. Again, it is none of your business and you are totally out of place in telling us that they should go to jail or be prosecuted in any other manner. IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

On the day that you take custody of their remaining children and are financially responsible for them let me know what you are going to do.

Until then get off your holier than thou attitude and realize that the situation is explainable, and that is what I've been doing, explaining what the did based on my life experience. And you should always remember, what they did is:

NONE OF OUR BUSINESS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!

Now, as you attempted to say in so many words: As far as I'm concerned you can go straight to hell and live with your own ass.[/SIZE]

a1na2
03-29-2008, 05:20 PM
You forgot blatantly stupid, ignorant, awful, sad, terrible, dumb, frightening, horrible, disgusting, and a great many other adjectives. :D

He also forgot that it's none of his business. Or yours, or mine, or anyone outside the immediate family of the child that died.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 05:22 PM
I don't think you are the crazy one. You seem quit normal to me. (well no less or more normal than the rest of the peeps around here:))

But I think parents have a responsiblity to provide the best care availbale to their children and if they don't they should be held responsible. Faith in God is no excuss for not providing that care. The child died. They obviously made the wrong decision and now they should pay for it.

My point is that the family did as they believed as right. I am in no position to tell them it was wrong as is nobody else on this board.

I think Dane has a problem with understanding that one single point.

DenverChief
03-29-2008, 05:23 PM
One poster on here reminds me of listening to a plumber discuss the finer points of astro-physics


maybe more like the McDonalds Drive Thru guy talking about National Defense

Thig Lyfe
03-29-2008, 05:42 PM
Big font is cruise control for cool.

Jenson71
03-29-2008, 05:55 PM
a1na2 has had a few changing arguments throughout this thread. In the beginning was that this was the practice of freedom of religion. Then it came that the parents were not doctors and did in fact try to do all they could. Now it seems that a1na2 wants to convince us that this episode is none of our business. Whatsoever.

By none of our business, does he mean none of the chiefsplanet members' business, or none of anyone's business outside of this particular family?

It seems a1na2 would be setting himself up for personal contradictions on both accounts.

DenverChief
03-29-2008, 05:57 PM
a1na2 has had a few changing arguments throughout this thread. In the beginning was that this was the practice of freedom of religion. Then it came that the parents were not doctors and did in fact try to do all they could. Now it seems that a1na2 wants to convince us that this episode is none of our business. Whatsoever.

By none of our business, does he mean none of the chiefsplanet members' business, or none of anyone's business outside of this particular family?

It seems a1na2 would be setting himself up for personal contradictions on both accounts.

IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!

a1na2
03-29-2008, 05:59 PM
Big font is cruise control for cool.

I tried to fix it, but failed.

Bwana
03-29-2008, 06:02 PM
This girls parents = nut jobs.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 06:04 PM
a1na2 has had a few changing arguments throughout this thread. In the beginning was that this was the practice of freedom of religion. Then it came that the parents were not doctors and did in fact try to do all they could. Now it seems that a1na2 wants to convince us that this episode is none of our business. Whatsoever.

By none of our business, does he mean none of the chiefsplanet members' business, or none of anyone's business outside of this particular family?

It seems a1na2 would be setting himself up for personal contradictions on both accounts.

You can't be that bad at understanding the issue.

It is none of my business, none of your business, none of Dane's business.

It's a global comment. We have no say in what that family did, or what they do.

I think if it was publically acceptable to interfere in others lives there would be more of a problem than you think.

They did what they did based on their beliefs, who are you to say that they cannot do so? Who is anyone to say that they did wrong, especially since not one of us knows any more than what is was posted by a nimrod that felt they needed to be brought up on criminal charges?

There were no criminal laws broken based on their own states laws!

I hope that you can all do better and be perfect in everything that you do, but I know that tragedies will happen to many people and it will be due to making a decision that was not right, but who is going to make that decision for you? Big Brother?

Actually I do hope that you are put into that same position and fail. Then you will finally see that what you felt best was not best and that you do not have all the answers.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 06:06 PM
This girls parents = nut jobs.

Prove it.

They made a decision that turned out to be wrong for their kid.

I guess you are saying that you have never erred. I just hope that in your lifetime that you don't make a mistake that costs someone you love their life. The next thread about pressing criminal actions against a parent or person just could be you.

Jenson71
03-29-2008, 06:08 PM
You can't be that bad at understanding the issue.

It is none of my business, none of your business, none of Dane's business.

It's a global comment. We have no say in what that family did, or what they do.



Ah, but what about child negligence (which this is), gay marriage, and abortion, to begin with? Are these issues that are none of our business - and therefore, should have no say in them?

Jenson71
03-29-2008, 06:10 PM
Actually I do hope that you are put into that same position and fail. Then you will finally see that what you felt best was not best and that you do not have all the answers.

If my child had diabetic ketoacidosis, I would get her treatment, from a medical professional.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 06:12 PM
Ah, but what about child negligence (which this is), gay marriage, and abortion, to begin with? Are these issues that are none of our business - and therefore, should have no say in them?

IF the parents were doing everything they knew to do to help their kid is it negligence? YOu say yes because the kid died and a nurse or doctor would have been able to help them, but in another post you claimed that the state the kid was in there was no way to recover.

Are you now claiming dual standpoints?

Gay marriage and abortion don't seem to be one of the issues that were facing the Neumans. Are you trying to change the subject because you know you have screwed the pooch?

As far as a different topic, I have nothing to say about either of those issues. I didn't decide to be an abortionist. I think it is nothing more than state sponsored murder.

The gay issue I'll leave with you because what you do is none of my business.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 06:16 PM
If my child had diabetic ketoacidosis, I would get her treatment, from a medical professional.

That's the biggest problem you have, you don't have a child. You do not know how you will react to every situation regarding that child. Your supposition is that you are smart enough to know what every disease that goes around and that you can handle it. You are wrong.

Also, if you happened to join a Church that advocated not going to a doctor and bought into their belief and lived it you would not take your child to a doctor.

You are speaking of things that you have no experience with and know nothing about.

Adept Havelock
03-29-2008, 06:23 PM
This girls parents = nut jobs.

I will say I think they were sincere nutjobs who were doing what they thought were correct.

I suppose if I join some nutjob religion that teaches I can feed my infant only a vegan diet on Tuesdays, and feed him spiritually by prayer the rest of the time, I'm shouldn't be prosecuted when the child starves to death. After all, it's not anyone's business as long as my faith says it's OK and I think I'm doing the right thing.

Or I could join one of those Neo-nazi "Christian Identity" extremist groups, and start treating some people like my personal property. After all, it's what my faith would teach, and apparently no one else has the right to judge me for anything because of that. After all, my faith would tell me that is the right way to behave. :rolleyes:

That's the entirety of your argument Tom, and it's very weak. It's weak from both a legal and a logical POV. You are saying that because the parents faith prohibited them going to a doctor and their heart was in the right place, they should get off for Child Endangerment and Neglect, because they didn't believe it was such.

In almost any state except Wisconsin that argument wouldn't, and has not, held water. Nor should it, IMO.

Jenson71
03-29-2008, 06:24 PM
IF the parents were doing everything they knew to do to help their kid is it negligence? YOu say yes because the kid died and a nurse or doctor would have been able to help them, but in another post you claimed that the state the kid was in there was no way to recover.

Are you now claiming dual standpoints?

No, the girl would have recovered if she had been treated. That is consistent with what I've said before.

Gay marriage and abortion don't seem to be one of the issues that were facing the Neumans. Are you trying to change the subject because you know you have screwed the pooch?

I'm just trying to see where your logic, or lack of, takes you.

As far as a different topic, I have nothing to say about either of those issues. I didn't decide to be an abortionist. I think it is nothing more than state sponsored murder.

The gay issue I'll leave with you because what you do is none of my business.

What about child negligence? I assume you think it would be wrong to abuse or neglect children, right.

Jenson71
03-29-2008, 06:28 PM
That's the biggest problem you have, you don't have a child. You do not know how you will react to every situation regarding that child.

I know exactly what I would do if my child was vomiting, had extreme thirst, felt weak, had nausea, etc. I would get her help. I would start out with the basic medicines, water, rest, and chicken soup. If the situation never got better, I would get professional help.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 06:30 PM
No, the girl would have recovered if she had been treated. That is consistent with what I've said before.

That's not right, you said that the condition was always fatal when it got to that point. I clearely asked you to post the stages of the condition which you have failed to do as of now.


I'm just trying to see where your logic, or lack of, takes you.

You wouldn't understand the logic if it bit you in the butt.

What about child negligence? I assume you think it would be wrong to abuse or neglect children, right.

You are assuming something about the Neumans that is totally wrong. You assume that they neglected the condition, they did what they thought was right. That is not neglect. That is also not abuse.

If you do what you think is best and it isn't good enough that is not neglect nor abuse.

Jenson71
03-29-2008, 06:34 PM
That's not right, you said that the condition was always fatal when it got to that point. I clearely asked you to post the stages of the condition which you have failed to do as of now.

The condition is fatal if left untreated. These parents did not get the daughter any treatment. Because of this, she died.

Jenson71
03-29-2008, 06:35 PM
You assume that they neglected the condition

This is not an assumption.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 06:38 PM
I know exactly what I would do if my child was vomiting, had extreme thirst, felt weak, had nausea, etc. I would get her help. I would start out with the basic medicines, water, rest, and chicken soup. If the situation never got better, I would get professional help.

You are not the Neumans and did not have that luxury. That's the point.

You have a different mind set when it comes to what to do. I have a different mindset of what to do, even that idiot Dane has a different mindset of what to do. These people did not.

And again, what they did caused their kid to die. You think bashing them further is going to make them or you feel better about their loss?

Don't make yourself out to be perfect, it doesn't work. IF you should ever have a child I wish you luck with that child. You will see things that you would never expect and in the case you mentioned above with all the symptoms, would you be medically inclined enough to be able to tag them all together immediately? Even if they presented themselves over several days and were not all present at the same time?

Like I said, good luck with your perfection complex. You don't have it and neither does anyone else here.

I never lost any of my kids. We had medical issues through their lives and we did not rush them to the emergency room with every little problem that cropped up. They went to the doctor when we could not get them through the problem. Most everyone would. I have had cousins that lost kids by various problems. Several of them died at home. Does that make the parents criminally negligent? A couple of them died in a hospital with doctors and nurses on staff, explain how that happened!

Your arguments are basically worthless because you have not even experienced your own baby that would not stop crying and what to do. Drop me a line when you start getting some of that experience and let me know how great of a provider you are. I just hope, by the way you talk, that you have plenty of money or plenty of health insurance. Hangnails in the emergency room cost as much as a broken bone.

Adept Havelock
03-29-2008, 06:38 PM
If you do what you think is best and it isn't good enough that is not neglect nor abuse.

How can you be wrong so many times in a single thead? You're on the way to a record here. :shake:


Q. How is Child Abuse and Neglect Defined in Federal Law?

A. Federal legislation provides a foundation for States by identifying a minimum set of acts or behaviors that define child abuse and neglect. The Federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA), (42 U.S.C.A. 5106g), as amended by the Keeping Children and Families Safe Act of 2003, defines child abuse and neglect as, at minimum:

* Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation; or
* An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm.

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/define.cfm

The parents are certainly culpable of neglect/abuse under Federal Law.

The fact they thought they were doing the right thing is no defense, as you are claiming.

I think it would be interesting to see if the Wisconsin exception would prevail in the face of the Federal position on the issue.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 06:39 PM
This is not an assumption.

That is totally an assumption. You were not there and do not know what they did to help the situation.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 06:40 PM
The condition is fatal if left untreated. These parents did not get the daughter any treatment. Because of this, she died.

That's not what you said, you said that condition was always fatal when it got as far as it did.

I'm still waiting for you knowledge of the stages of the condition as I asked yesterday. You said your mother was an expert. Ask mommy.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 06:42 PM
How can you be wrong so many times in a single thead? You're on the way to a record here. :shake:

Q. How is Child Abuse and Neglect Defined in Federal Law?

A. Federal legislation provides a foundation for States by identifying a minimum set of acts or behaviors that define child abuse and neglect. The Federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA), (42 U.S.C.A. 5106g), as amended by the Keeping Children and Families Safe Act of 2003, defines child abuse and neglect as, at minimum:

* Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation; or
* An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm.

The parents are certainly culpable of neglect/abuse under Federal Law.

The fact they thought they were doing the right thing is no defense, as you are claiming.

I think it would be interesting to see if the Wisconsin exception would prevail in the face of the Federal position on the issue.

You don't have a clue as to what is being discussed. Your post might have some context in the generic level, you were not there and do not know that they did nothing. They didn't take the kid to a doctor, that is not something you can force anyone to do in any case.

Jenson71
03-29-2008, 06:43 PM
That is totally an assumption. You were not there and do not know what they did to help the situation.

1.) They did not seek professional help, or give medical treatment. Authorities said this. Relatives said this. The parents said this.

Adept Havelock
03-29-2008, 06:46 PM
You don't have a clue as to what is being discussed.

Yes I do. You claimed:


You are assuming something about the Neumans that is totally wrong. You assume that they neglected the condition, they did what they thought was right. That is not neglect. That is also not abuse.

If you do what you think is best and it isn't good enough that is not neglect nor abuse.

The Federal Law I quoted shows that clearly is not true. However, as you've been wrong about just about everything in this entire thread, I shouldn't be at all surprised.

That may be what you believe, but that certainly doesn't make it so in the eyes of the law.

Pay attention next time, and you won't embarrass yourself like that. Have a nice night, Tommy Boy.

Jenson71
03-29-2008, 06:49 PM
That's not what you said, you said that condition was always fatal when it got as far as it did.

I'm still waiting for you knowledge of the stages of the condition as I asked yesterday. You said your mother was an expert. Ask mommy.

The problem is that they left it untreated. They let it get to that condition where it's fatal.

First there's high blood sugar, so she would feel tired and thirsty, then really lethargic, and losing weight. Becomes more dehydrated. Sugar in urine. Then ketones in urine, breathing is deeper, her breath smells acidic/fruity, and her whole body becomes more acidic. Then lose consciousness and fall into a coma.

They're not getting insulin, which helps the sugar from food intake after forming into glucose, go everywhere it needs to. Without the insulin aiding the glucose, your cells starve.

DaneMcCloud
03-29-2008, 06:51 PM
My point is that the family did as they believed as right. I am in no position to tell them it was wrong as is nobody else on this board.

I think Dane has a problem with understanding that one single point.

So since it's "okay" in your book for these people to just watch their daughter die, I guess it's "okay" if that would have committed rape, incest or beaten her as well? Do I understand that correctly?

Or in your opinion, since they did it because of "God", they get a free pass to watch their child die? So death is okay, but rape, incest and beating is not?

You're a fool.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 07:17 PM
So since it's "okay" in your book for these people to just watch their daughter die, I guess it's "okay" if that would have committed rape, incest or beaten her as well? Do I understand that correctly?

Or in your opinion, since they did it because of "God", they get a free pass to watch their child die? So death is okay, but rape, incest and beating is not?

You're a fool.

Childish name calling again. You need to get a new schtick.

You assume things that you do not know. What proof do you have that they did nothing and just watched he die? You don't have that proof all you have is what you feel they should have done. Your comment about rape and incest is so far off the topic and ridiculous that I won't even comment.

The did what they did based on their belief. I don't give them a "free pass" on anyting because I was not there either. They said in the story they did what they knew to do, one of the things they did was pray. They chose not to take her to a doctor. Once again I say that you cannot force them to do your will nor follow your standards.

I would like to know at which university you did your pre-med as well as your internship. Which kind of doctor are you?

Even if you were a doctor you could not state an opinion of what happened at that home at that time because you were not there.

And again, it is none of your business and you still cannot force a family to take their child to a doctor.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 07:25 PM
The problem is that they left it untreated. They let it get to that condition where it's fatal.

First there's high blood sugar, so she would feel tired and thirsty, then really lethargic, and losing weight. Becomes more dehydrated. Sugar in urine. Then ketones in urine, breathing is deeper, her breath smells acidic/fruity, and her whole body becomes more acidic. Then lose consciousness and fall into a coma.

They're not getting insulin, which helps the sugar from food intake after forming into glucose, go everywhere it needs to. Without the insulin aiding the glucose, your cells starve.

1. high blood sugar. They did not frequent doctors or hospitals, they would not have known the blood sugar was high.

2. a kid being tired and thirsty. There is a real tell tale sign of sickness.

3. Becomes dehydrated. I was dehydrated many times as a kid and as a young adult, at that time I was not diabetic.

4. Sugar in the urine. How were they to tell that ?

5. Keytones in urine. If you don't know that it's a sugar problem are you going to be checking the stool after each potty trip?

6. Diabetic Breath. If you have not been around someone with diabetes you do not recognize that their breath is fruity or sweetish.

The second paragraph is known by those that are aware of what diabetes does to a body. I'm diabetic but I do not take insulin, my body produces enough of it to take care of three people, my body cells do not accept the insulin I produce so I have to take medications that desensitizes my cells to remove the sugar and keep my levels as normal as yours.

You put up some good information, not complete, but good. What you have still failed to acknowledge is that the parents did not know she was diabetic and by the time the girl was that far along, according to you, it was too late.

Withholding treatment or drugs in a known situation is criminal but if you don't know there is a problem you cannot be held liable for not taking the child to a doctor and, again, nobody can force you to take a child to a doctor.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 07:26 PM
1.) They did not seek professional help, or give medical treatment. Authorities said this. Relatives said this. The parents said this.

Which of the parents were doctors? How could they give medical treatment? All they could do is what they knew to do with a sick child.

BucEyedPea
03-29-2008, 07:40 PM
If only you could hear yourself. You want to believe the bible principles and what Jesus taught but your torn because your church sits on a fence. If all the Catholic churches support the troops of their particular country and the Vatican doesn't denounce it....then they support it by default. Just like they did during the holocaust. By not taking a firm moral stand against it, they just sat back and let it happen. The German Catholic church was basically in bed with Hitler an the Vatican feared him and remained silent. The sin of omission applies to the church too.

That's actually a lot of baloney promoted by certain anti-Catholic groups. It actually traces back to a certain play iirc. Then it just trickled down as a truth. It isn't. It's a rumor and/or smear on the RCC. Even past Jewish leaders praised Pope Pius XII's work before and during the war years. In fact it was RC's that hid Jewish people and children throughout the countryside with some in monasteries and church basements.

“During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and commiserate with the victims.” — GOLD MEIR @ UN General Assembly at the Pope’s death in 1958

Some of the Jewish organizations that praised Pope Pius XII at the time of his death for saving Jewish lives during the horror of the Nazi Holocaust were: the World Jewish Congress, the Anti-Defamation League, the Synagogue Council of America, the Rabbinical Council of America, the American Jewish Congress, the New York Board of Rabbis, the American Jewish Committee, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the American Jewish Committee, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the National Conference of Christians and Jews and the National Council of Jewish Women.— GOLD MEIR @ UN General Assembly at the Pope’s death in 1958

Link (http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/piusxii_faqs.html)

BucEyedPea
03-29-2008, 07:55 PM
I'm pleased most state laws seem to agree with this position.

Sorry, but the fact that "The parents heart was in the right place" doesn't excuse ignoring medical treatment for their sick child.

JMO.
I never said if "the parents heart is in the right place." You changed my words.

Most state laws apparently don't agree still according to this link. Even Canada grants the freedom to chose faith healing. There are still many more states with religious exemptions in child abuse laws including in Wisconsin.

In 1974, the U.S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare first required states to have clauses in their child abuse and neglect legislation that permits exemptions on religious grounds. If a state refused, they would not receive federal child abuse protection grants. By 1999, 40 (one source says 41) states had complied. Parents who choose prayer in place of medical care for a sick or injured child cannot be prosecuted in those jurisdictions. This federal regulation no longer exists, but most the state laws remain on the books. In only 4 states have these laws been overturned by the courts on constitutional grounds: HI, MA, MD & SD as the other two.

Committees in the Oregon legislature heard testimony in 1999-MAR for and against House bills 2494 and 2596. These would require all parents to obtain medical help for their seriously sick or injured children. The bills have strong backing from both parties, law enforcement, physicians, social workers and child advocates. "...there was limited testimony from Christian Scientists who warned that eliminating the so-called spiritual defense from Oregon's homicide statutes and other areas of the law would unfairly impose upon their religious rights." 3 The House later endorsed a compromise faith healing bill that allows defendants to claim faith healing as a defense.

In 6 states (AR, DE, IA, OH, OR, and WV) additional laws are on the books that prevent charges of criminal homicide or manslaughter being laid against parents and guardians.

DaneMcCloud
03-29-2008, 07:58 PM
Childish name calling again. You need to get a new schtick.

You assume things that you do not know. What proof do you have that they did nothing and just watched he die? You don't have that proof all you have is what you feel they should have done. Your comment about rape and incest is so far off the topic and ridiculous that I won't even comment.

The did what they did based on their belief. I don't give them a "free pass" on anyting because I was not there either. They said in the story they did what they knew to do, one of the things they did was pray. They chose not to take her to a doctor. Once again I say that you cannot force them to do your will nor follow your standards.

I would like to know at which university you did your pre-med as well as your internship. Which kind of doctor are you?

Even if you were a doctor you could not state an opinion of what happened at that home at that time because you were not there.

And again, it is none of your business and you still cannot force a family to take their child to a doctor.

The mere fact that they didn't take her to a doctor after a month-long illness that led to her death is more than enough to bring these "parents" up on criminal charges. Child endangerment and neglect for starters.

Why you can't understand that is quite impossible for me to comprehend. Let alone, defend these people. As I stated earlier (which you completely ignored), if this family had neglected their child in the name of Satan, YOU would be first in line to scrutinize them. Without a shred of doubt.

The citizens of this country just can't "do" whatever they want or whatever they feel like. We can't just run around and make up our own set of laws. While there might not be a law on the books that states that a parent must take their sick child to the doctor every time they're sick, it's just f*cking common sense for most of the 300 million that live in this country.

And claiming that "God" would heal her is just another reason for this family to thoroughly examined by government officials. It's just plain WRONG for ANYONE to let their child suffer and die.

How you can argue that is inconceivable, despite your "beliefs".

Jenson71
03-29-2008, 08:05 PM
You put up some good information, not complete, but good. What you have still failed to acknowledge is that the parents did not know she was diabetic and by the time the girl was that far along, according to you, it was too late.

They didn't have to know she was diabetic. All they have to do is see that something is wrong with the girl. She had symptoms that indicated she needed medical help.

You have gone to such great lengths to defends these parents. Freedom of religion, none of our business, demanding the stages of diabetic ketoacidosis, claiming I condone partial birth abortions, saying I'm too young and ignorant to understand this all, etc.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 08:27 PM
The mere fact that they didn't take her to a doctor after a month-long illness that led to her death is more than enough to bring these "parents" up on criminal charges. Child endangerment and neglect for starters.

Not in the state that they live in. You cannot force anyone to take someone to the doctor. Besides, again, you cannot force your will or your values on someone else.

Why you can't understand that is quite impossible for me to comprehend. Let alone, defend these people. As I stated earlier (which you completely ignored), if this family had neglected their child in the name of Satan, YOU would be first in line to scrutinize them. Without a shred of doubt.

You are wrong. It is none of my business, just as it is none of your business. Would I think it was right? No. Do I think it was right in this case? No. It's simply not my concern just as it is not your concern. You assume far too much and speculate more that a wildcat oilman.

The citizens of this country just can't "do" whatever they want or whatever they feel like. We can't just run around and make up our own set of laws. While there might not be a law on the books that states that a parent must take their sick child to the doctor every time they're sick, it's just f*cking common sense for most of the 300 million that live in this country.

They didn't make up any laws. The law cannot compel you to take a family member to a doctor, it simply cannot be done. You cannot force anyone to do your will or impose your beliefs on them.

And claiming that "God" would heal her is just another reason for this family to thoroughly examined by government officials. It's just plain WRONG for ANYONE to let their child suffer and die.

It is obvious that you have never been involved in a case where someone had a miraculous healing. I have been and know that it happens. You cannot assume that God does not exist just because you do not believe in him. You can deny all you want, but that does not make your belief any more or less true than my belief.

How you can argue that is inconceivable, despite your "beliefs".

The argument is that you have no right to impose your beliefs or lack of beliefs on anyone in this country for any reason. If I want to believe that you are jabba the hut, I can do so. If I want to believe that you are the biggest waste of human flesh on the planet I can do so. Likewise, you can scream out about your disdain for what I believe to be the rights of those parents, but there is nothing wrong with my belief that we live in a free country that gives us the freedom to choose what we do.

You still assume that this family sat on their ass and just waited for this child to die. I feel that you are wrong and based on the fact that parents love their children, did everything that they could to give aid. Your screaming that they did not take her to a doctor is irrelevant as you cannot force them to do so.

Defend them? No. Defending their right to do as they feel is right, yes.

a1na2
03-29-2008, 08:42 PM
They didn't have to know she was diabetic. All they have to do is see that something is wrong with the girl. She had symptoms that indicated she needed medical help.

Once again you are showing your lack of knowledge of the situation. If you know your kid is sick and do not trust or use doctors you do what you can. You cannot force someone to have your set of rules for rearing kids. You have no rules as you don't have any kids. Once you get married you may find that your opinion here is pretty much a utopian concept that does not have any reality associated with it.

You have gone to such great lengths to defends these parents. Freedom of religion, none of our business, demanding the stages of diabetic ketoacidosis, claiming I condone partial birth abortions, saying I'm too young and ignorant to understand this all, etc.

You are either too stubborn to change your concept of what is happening or not smart enough to see that you do not have a call in the situation. You don't even know the facts of the situation other than the story that was posted yet you claim many things that are going on.

You have not said that you do not condone partial birth abortions, you also have not said that you are against abortions et al.

I do not approve of abortions for the sake of being able to have sex freely and then kill your mistake when you get caught. I don't like the idea of abortion at all, but I understand that there are times when that procedure is necessary for a varity of reasons. To me, abortion is nothing more than legalized murder or extermination for the convenience of someone that couldn't control their urges.

I asked for, not demanded, the stages of ketoacidosis because you made such a big issue of it without regard for the different stages that the disease and how it could be treated.

Ketoacidosis usually develops slowly. But when vomiting occurs, this life-threatening condition can develop in a few hours.

How to treat ketoacidosis
Treatment of ketoacidosis may require insulin and fluids as ordered by your doctor. You may be put in the hospital unless ketoacidosis is detected and treated in the early stages. Ketoacidosis can result in coma and possibly death.

As you can see, there are easy links to find information, but you declined to do so, even to refer to a search because your basis of belief is not fully correct.

Ketoacidosis is a slow onset in type 1 people. The "how to treat" above says that you MAY need insulin and fluids.

There are far too many issues that you expected the parents of this girl to know, even when her diabetes was not diagnosed. You assume that they automatically knew that she was diabetic and refused treatment. You were wrong and continue to be wrong.

They didn't know and did what they felt best. They were wrong and it cost them dearly. I see that you cannot number compassion as one of your redeeming qualities.

mikey23545
03-29-2008, 11:02 PM
How long has your God demanded human sacrifice?

Adept Havelock
03-29-2008, 11:14 PM
I never said if "the parents heart is in the right place." You changed my words.

I intended to use that phrase to (correctly) summarize Tom's position. Though I used it several times throughout the thread, my apologies for using it in the response directed towards you without that clarification. I don't know your position on the subject, so I wouldn't presume to attribute one to you.

Most state laws apparently don't agree still according to this link. Even Canada grants the freedom to chose faith healing. There are still many more states with religious exemptions in child abuse laws including in Wisconsin.

It's truly a pity religion overrides common sense as it applies to the well being of children in those states. JMO.



You have gone to such great lengths to defends these parents. Freedom of religion, none of our business, demanding the stages of diabetic ketoacidosis, claiming I condone partial birth abortions, saying I'm too young and ignorant to understand this all, etc.

I wonder if he'd have the same attitude if they were Scientologists or some other fringe religion/cult that believed medical care was a violation of their faith.

Short Leash Hootie
03-29-2008, 11:35 PM
Looks like Tom can't make up his mind.



The child dying was a tragedy, but I do not feel that the parents are criminal.


It is none of my business, just as it is none of your business. Would I think it was right? No. Do I think it was right in this case? No.

The proper action for them was to do as they did.


My point is that the family did as they believed as right. I am in no position to tell them it was wrong as is nobody else on this board.



Were the parents criminally negligent? No, I don't think so.

I maintain that we cannot force our perceptions of right and wrong into this case as we are not living in their shoes.

Adept Havelock
03-29-2008, 11:42 PM
Looks like Tom can't make up his mind.


Careful. He'll tell you how young you are, how you aren't smart enough to "get it", how your faith or lack thereof doesn't possibly allow you to understand, how you just can't see the parents heart was in the right place, etc.


I maintain that we cannot force our perceptions of right and wrong into this case as we are not living in their shoes.

:eek:

Well I'll be. Who knew - ahem, shut your mouth - supported the Liberal belief of Moral Relativism? ROFL

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 01:44 AM
You have no rules as you don't have any kids. Once you get married you may find that your opinion here is pretty much a utopian concept that does not have any reality associated with it.

You honestly think that when I get married, my views on getting sick children medical help will change? You think getting a kid a doctor is a utopian concept with no reality associated with it?

You are either too stubborn to change your concept of what is happening or not smart enough to see that you do not have a call in the situation.

That's exactly right! I am too stubborn in demanding that parents use common sense and when their child is showing severe signs of illness, they get medical help. I'm glad to be stubborn in this way. I bet my children will be glad I'm stubborn like that.

Dick Bull
03-30-2008, 01:48 AM
damn is this what this website is reduced to

--everybody bitching at each other all the time

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 01:52 AM
There are far too many issues that you expected the parents of this girl to know, even when her diabetes was not diagnosed. You assume that they automatically knew that she was diabetic and refused treatment. You were wrong and continue to be wrong.

I will repeat this once again for you, in a different way, in hope that you will finally come to understand this about my argument.

They parents did not have to be doctors. The parents did not have to know the daughter was diabetic. All they had to have was the simple common sense that would have recognized that their daughter was sick and needed medical help. They refused to get medical help. They neglected the needs of their child, and it led to her death.

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 01:54 AM
Ketoacidosis is a slow onset in type 1 people. The "how to treat" above says that you MAY need insulin and fluids.

You NEED insulin and fluids so you can survive. That goes for all people, diabetic or not. If you do not get those, you will die. There is no "may"

a1na2
03-30-2008, 06:54 AM
You NEED insulin and fluids so you can survive. That goes for all people, diabetic or not. If you do not get those, you will die. There is no "may"

That comment was not MINE! It came directly from the ADA, American Diabetes Association.

If you feel that you know better than the ADA maybe you need to step up to the plate and let them know they have mistaken.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 07:04 AM
I will repeat this once again for you, in a different way, in hope that you will finally come to understand this about my argument.

This has nothing to do with me understanding that most people would consult with a doctor, you cannot force anyone to go to a doctor or to take their child to a doctor, especially in retrospect. Your argument is void of any understanding that they are not you and they are not 99% of the rest of the people in the country (99% is not an actual figure just a number).

They parents did not have to be doctors. The parents did not have to know the daughter was diabetic. All they had to have was the simple common sense that would have recognized that their daughter was sick and needed medical help. They refused to get medical help. They neglected the needs of their child, and it led to her death.

Once again you are trying to express your sentiments of what they should have known or done. You are outside the scope of reality there.

If someone does not feel that they need doctors why would they all of a sudden change their mind? These people said they did not use doctors.

You still cannot force what you would do into their circumstances. You do not know nor do you have the responsibility to tell them that they have to go to a doctor.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 07:07 AM
You honestly think that when I get married, my views on getting sick children medical help will change? You think getting a kid a doctor is a utopian concept with no reality associated with it?

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that you don't know what you are going to do in each and every event in your kid's life. What are you going to do if you do what you feel is right at the time and your kid still dies?

That's exactly right! I am too stubborn in demanding that parents use common sense and when their child is showing severe signs of illness, they get medical help. I'm glad to be stubborn in this way. I bet my children will be glad I'm stubborn like that.

You are demanding that people use something that you feel you have and they do not. Based on your commentary I feel sorry for your kids. From the looks of it you will have them all lined up and lockstepping by the time they are 10.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 07:08 AM
Looks like Tom can't make up his mind.

Clayton, go back to WPI and stir up you stuff there.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 07:12 AM
I wonder if he'd have the same attitude if they were Scientologists or some other fringe religion/cult that believed medical care was a violation of their faith.

Those groups that you refer to have their own rules and are accepted by you. Why is it that you have to make distinction between one group and another?

I live my life without trying to interfer with yours. How many times have I attempted to "get you saved" in the name of my religion?

You feel that my stance is a global situation that all religious beliefs are correct. You have been wrong, you are wrong and you will be wrong.

Carry on with your wild exaggerations, it suits the type of person you are.

milkman
03-30-2008, 07:30 AM
I'm going to stop wearing seatbelts, cause I know that God is stronger that any made made safety device.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 08:07 AM
I'm going to stop wearing seatbelts, cause I know that God is stronger that any made made safety device.

Good luck with the tickets you get.

That is one comment shows just how much you do not understand about many things.

If your god says to do so, then he is not the same God that I serve. My God says that I have to obey the laws of the land I live in.

The Neumans did not break any law.

milkman
03-30-2008, 08:22 AM
Good luck with the tickets you get.

That is one comment shows just how much you do not understand about many things.

If your god says to do so, then he is not the same God that I serve. My God says that I have to obey the laws of the land I live in.

The Neumans did not break any law.

You miss the point.

The government has taken my right to choose whether or not I wear seastbelts, or my grandchildren.

Eventually they will decide to take awy the right to choose whether we, or our children, should seek medical attention.

And it is cases like these that will lead to that decision.

Adept Havelock
03-30-2008, 09:15 AM
Those groups that you refer to have their own rules and are accepted by you. Why is it that you have to make distinction between one group and another?


Wrong again. What a surprise. :rolleyes:

Anyone willing to allow a child to die by refusing medical attention is in no way "accepted" by me as anything other than belonging to a whackjob/fringe cult, or lacking religious motivation, a complete moron.

You feel that my stance is a global situation that all religious beliefs are correct. You have been wrong, you are wrong and you will be wrong.
No, I'm quite aware you believe your religion is the only "correct" one. So do others. Big whoop.

However, as you've been defending the parents based on freedom of religion, I should point out that in the eyes of the Constitution of the United States (which grants that freedom), all religions are equally "correct". As we're talking about laws, that's what matters. Not your personal beliefs. Try to stick with the conversation.



Carry on with your wild exaggerations, it suits the type of person you are.

Awww...Sandyvag?

I maintain that we cannot force our perceptions of right and wrong into this case as we are not living in their shoes.

LMAO - ahem, shut your mouth -, recently announced Moral Relativist.



And it is cases like these that will lead to that decision.

It is a shame laws like that are needed.

I'd think treating a sick child with more than prayer/meditation would be a common sense proposition.

Much like parents who would neglect their child in another way, the state has to intervene on occasion. It's tragic, but often necessary for the well-being of the child.

Sure-Oz
03-30-2008, 10:30 AM
Good luck with the tickets you get.

That is one comment shows just how much you do not understand about many things.

If your god says to do so, then he is not the same God that I serve. My God says that I have to obey the laws of the land I live in.

The Neumans did not break any law.


You should be their lawyer.

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 11:31 AM
That comment was not MINE! It came directly from the ADA, American Diabetes Association.

If you feel that you know better than the ADA maybe you need to step up to the plate and let them know they have mistaken.

If the ADA claims that you don't need insulin and water to survive, then yes, I know better than them. How do you not know this?

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 11:33 AM
Once again you are trying to express your sentiments of what they should have known or done. You are outside the scope of reality there.

Your idea reality is very interesting. I don't think it's unrealistic that they should get medical help from a professional when their daughter clearly needs it.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 11:35 AM
If the ADA claims that you don't need insulin and water to survive, then yes, I know better than them. How do you not know this?

Do a google and go to their site. that's how I found it and the quote was directly from their site.

No you do not know more about the disease than they do. I have doubts that you even know more than the Neumans.

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 11:35 AM
I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that you don't know what you are going to do in each and every event in your kid's life. What are you going to do if you do what you feel is right at the time and your kid still dies?


In this case, common sense tells me that if my kid is showing the symptoms this girl did and all people with diabetic ketoacidosis show, then I'm going to get them practical, medical help and treatments.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 11:37 AM
Your idea reality is very interesting. I don't think it's unrealistic that they should get medical help from a professional when their daughter clearly needs it.


Clearly needs it in your eyes. You are still trying to impress your values on them and that is not reality.

Your views and beliefs have no ground with that family.

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 11:39 AM
Do a google and go to their site. that's how I found it and the quote was directly from their site.

No you do not know more about the disease than they do. I have doubts that you even know more than the Neumans.

I'm sure it was. I'm sure they would agree with me that people need insulin and water to live.

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 11:42 AM
Clearly needs it in your eyes. You are still trying to impress your values on them and that is not reality.

Your views and beliefs have no ground with that family.

Yes, I am stressing those damned "values" of getting a sick child medical help on to them and everyone else if the opportunity is there. That's very realistic. Common sense has no ground with that family. So I complain and ask their children be taken away.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 12:36 PM
Yes, I am stressing those damned "values" of getting a sick child medical help on to them and everyone else if the opportunity is there. That's very realistic. Common sense has no ground with that family. So I complain and ask their children be taken away.

You can stress your values all you want but you cannot force your values on others, no where, no time.

Realistic? If you want to be realistic and feel that your values have to be adhered to by the Neumans I have but one question. Where were you when the symptoms started showing in their little girl? Where was you wisdom and common sense to share with them and to teach them at the time the girl was getting sicker?

It is not the Neumans that should be prosecuted for neglect, it is you.

milkman
03-30-2008, 12:38 PM
You can stress your values all you want but you cannot force your values on others, no where, no time.

Realistic? If you want to be realistic and feel that your values have to be adhered to by the Neumans I have but one question. Where were you when the symptoms started showing in their little girl? Where was you wisdom and common sense to share with them and to teach them at the time the girl was getting sicker?

It is not the Neumans that should be prosecuted for neglect, it is you.

This is the stupidest ****ing post ever.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 12:39 PM
I'm sure it was. I'm sure they would agree with me that people need insulin and water to live.

You are deflecting. You commented on my quote and said that they were wrong. Prove that their site did not say that you MAY need insulin and medical attention.

On second thought I agree.

Live with your smugness and willingness to perpetuate the big brother mentality.

Let's find the next issue that you know more than those that are responsible and we can get them in jail too.

You might make a list, we can big brother the world to extinction by imposing our beliefs and opinions where it is not wanted or needed.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 12:40 PM
This is the stupidest ****ing post ever.

Considering that you and Jenson feel that you know better than the family that had the kid it is not stupid. You both are responsible for the kid's death because you did not intervene when the kid was dying.

milkman
03-30-2008, 12:49 PM
Considering that you and Jenson feel that you know better than the family that had the kid it is not stupid. You both are responsible for the kid's death because you did not intervene when the kid was dying.

You're a ****ing moron.

I'm not surprised that reading comprehension is beyond your grasp.

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 12:50 PM
Let the record stand that a1na2 has gone from the parents should be in no trouble at all because of their freedom of religion to me being prosecuted for the girl's death.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 01:05 PM
You're a ****ing moron.

I'm not surprised that reading comprehension is beyond your grasp.

Milkman retorts with name calling, the sure sign that he cannot understand what is going on.

Too bad, for him.

Just for the record, do you have enough ability to understand that the whole point here is that what happened is none of your business and that your moral outrage is nothing?

I didn't think so.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 01:09 PM
Let the record stand that a1na2 has gone from the parents should be in no trouble at all because of their freedom of religion to me being prosecuted for the girl's death.

That shows just how little you understand the ignorance of your stand against the parents. You, and your beliefs, concerns and desires to have them jailed still remain in the NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

If you really want those people to be responsible for their actions, you be responsible for the lack of understanding you have of the situation.

How they reacted to their childs sickness, beit a religious belief, a personal disdain for doctors or that they felt they were doing all that needed to be done falls under the category of not being any of your business. If you want to stick your nose into it take the responsibility that you claim they do not have.

If I were you I'd live some life and gain some kind of experience before you claim to be all knowing.

milkman
03-30-2008, 01:12 PM
Milkman retorts with name calling, the sure sign that he cannot understand what is going on.

Too bad, for him.

Just for the record, do you have enough ability to understand that the whole point here is that what happened is none of your business and that your moral outrage is nothing?

I didn't think so.

I retorted with name calling because you are too ****ing stupid to understand that I didn't react to this story with moral outrage.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about the kid.

It's a tragedy, but I don't know her.

My only reaction is that cases like these will eventually lead to lawmakers making laws, because there will be moral outrage, and that's what lawmakers do.

Impose their standards on society.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 01:13 PM
You're a ****ing moron.

I never said my values should be pushed on the parents, dumbass.

Make your case of why you are so pissed off then.

Those people did what they felt right and just about every one here, you included by your responses, feel that they were criminal in their actions.

What causes you to feel that their actions were criminal? Were you there? Did you have a video of them neglecting the child as she was dying?

Come on, if you are going to accuse me of wrongdoing because I tell you that you are sticking your nose in others business where it is obviously not wanted or needed, I need to know why you feel it is in your purview to do so.

milkman
03-30-2008, 01:15 PM
Make your case of why you are so pissed off then.

Those people did what they felt right and just about every one here, you included by your responses, feel that they were criminal in their actions.

What causes you to feel that their actions were criminal? Were you there? Did you have a video of them neglecting the child as she was dying?

Come on, if you are going to accuse me of wrongdoing because I tell you that you are sticking your nose in others business where it is obviously not wanted or needed, I need to know why you feel it is in your purview to do so.

I'm not pissed off at the parents.

I'm just generally pissed off all the time.

And I never said their actions were criminal.

I said their case, and cases like these will lead to laws, eventually, that will make similiar actions in the future, criminal.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 01:15 PM
I retorted with name calling because you are too ****ing stupid to understand that I didn't react to this story with moral outrage.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about the kid.

It's a tragedy, but I don't know her.

My only reaction is that cases like these will eventually lead to lawmakers making laws, because there will be moral outrage, and that's what lawmakers do.

Impose their standards on society.

That's not what you were illuding to, you claimed that they were wrong and that I should go along with that sentiment. I do not. I think that as parents they did what they could with what they had to do it with. They, for whatever reason (reasons we have no say in) did not choose to take the kid to a doctor.

What you have to ask them is did anyone in their immediate family ever go see a doctor due to illness. If they did, I'd agree that they were wrong. If they did not there is nothing to argue about and it is still none of our business.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 01:16 PM
I'm not pissed off at the parents.

I'm just generally pissed off all the time.

The only suggestion I have for you is to get over it.

milkman
03-30-2008, 01:19 PM
That's not what you were illuding to, you claimed that they were wrong and that I should go along with that sentiment. I do not. I think that as parents they did what they could with what they had to do it with. They, for whatever reason (reasons we have no say in) did not choose to take the kid to a doctor.

What you have to ask them is did anyone in their immediate family ever go see a doctor due to illness. If they did, I'd agree that they were wrong. If they did not there is nothing to argue about and it is still none of our business.

Where did I say they were wrong?

You miss the point.

The government has taken my right to choose whether or not I wear seastbelts, or my grandchildren.

Eventually they will decide to take awy the right to choose whether we, or our children, should seek medical attention.

And it is cases like these that will lead to that decision.

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 01:20 PM
We have many laws that seem intruding and "none of our business," but in fact, they are legitimately protecting someone's rights, or should be, in some way. In this case, we are intruding the parent's freedom of religion because their eleven year old daughter is now dead because of that religion. In another, similar case, if a Muslim parent was extreme in their belief and forced a new baby to fast during Ramadan, leading to the child's death, we would seek out action against the parent even though it is none of our business.

Child negligence, drug laws, property laws, etc., may not be any of our direct business, but, because we are Americans and humans it is our business to be involved and work out policies that affect the issues. This is a very simple explanation on a complex topic, Law, that I won't and can't go into for various reasons right now.

You have indicated your beliefs on abortion. I can't think of a better example. In your opinion, abortion is state sponsored murder. You would probably want a law against it. Yet, the people for abortion would claim it is none of your business and you should stay out of it.

The argument that I should stay out of this issue because it is none of my business is a weak one, a1na2.

milkman
03-30-2008, 01:21 PM
The only suggestion I have for you is to get over it.

Mind your own ****ing business.

By the way, the word you were looking for in your previous post was "alluding".

a1na2
03-30-2008, 03:00 PM
The argument that I should stay out of this issue because it is none of my business is a weak one, a1na2.

The lives of the Neumans is none of your business. Why is it that you can't figure that out? You don't get to make the calls in their situation. You don't even get to have an input in that situation.

Your response shows you don't have a clue.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 03:01 PM
Mind your own ****ing business.



It is my business. You told me that you were always pissed off.

Enjoy your ulcers, bleeding ulcers and perforated intestines. (all results from not "getting over it".)

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 04:33 PM
The lives of the Neumans is none of your business. Why is it that you can't figure that out? You don't get to make the calls in their situation. You don't even get to have an input in that situation.

Your response shows you don't have a clue.

I've already shown how 1.) it doesn't have to directly be my business and 2.) it can be considered my business, just as you have an opinion on abortion, though it's not "your business."

All in all, I think your defense for these bad parents is not because you're interested in any kind of protection of them, but instead, it comes from your own insecurities about your religion and Christianity in general. When you see an attack on a person who reads the Bible and replaces it with their common sense, you perceive that to be an attack on yourself and your own values.

I think I'm going to close up on this topic. I enjoyed it. Everything from I condone partial birth abortion to I should be prosecuted, and especially, how I'm too young to fully understand the entire situation, and how you feel sorry for my future children. I'll let you have the last word on this between us two.

milkman
03-30-2008, 05:22 PM
It is my business. You told me that you were always pissed off.

Enjoy your ulcers, bleeding ulcers and perforated intestines. (all results from not "getting over it".)

No. it's not any of your ****ing business.

I'm nearly 50 years old, and my most recent medical exam, about 6 months ago, my doctor, who is about 10 years younger, said he wishes he was as healthy as me.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 05:23 PM
All in all, I think your defense for these bad parents is not because you're interested in any kind of protection of them, but instead, it comes from your own insecurities about your religion and Christianity in general. When you see an attack on a person who reads the Bible and replaces it with their common sense, you perceive that to be an attack on yourself and your own values.



That is the most stupid thing I've ever seen in my life. First, this has nothing to do with my religion. You attacking me in that respect is ludicrious because of your obvious inability to even come to grips with the Catholic faith.

This whole argument is centered around the fact that you trying to enforce your beliefs of what is right and wrong in a situation that does not involve you in any way, shape or form.

You apparently have lost the argument as you have resorted to attacking, not me, but my religion.

My God must be better than your god. By the way you speak I'm sure they are not the one and same. I do know the God of the Catholic Church is the same God I serve, but I have no clue what god you do serve, if you actually serve or that your affiliation with the Catholic Church is a family forced issue that you cannot get away from.

This is not meant to be the last word, but if you don't have the intent to defend your remarks let it end with this.

The situation that the Neumans faced with the illness of their child is none of your business regardless of how much you feel that it is.

a1na2
03-30-2008, 05:24 PM
No. it's not any of your ****ing business.

I'm nearly 50 years old, and my most recent medical exam, about 6 months ago, my doctor, who is about 10 years younger, said he wishes he was as healthy as me.

dude, get a grip on things and get over it.

You are missing the point that I'm just giving you something to be pissed about ... you see ... I don't care.

Adept Havelock
04-28-2008, 04:15 PM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_PRAYER_DEATH_WIOL-?SITE=WIFON&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

DA: Wis. parents who prayed as daughter died to face charges

By ROBERT IMRIE
Associated Press Writer

WESTON, Wis. (AP) -- Parents who prayed as their 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes were charged Monday with second-degree reckless homicide.

The father considered the illness "a test of faith" and the mother never considered taking the girl to the doctor because she thought her daughter was under a "spiritual attack," the criminal complaint said

"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said. "Her death could have been prevented."

She announced the charges Monday during a news conference at the Everest Metro Police Department with Police Chief Dan Vergin. Vergin has said Dale and Leilani Neumann told investigators their daughter Madeline last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots.

The couple face up to 25 years in prison if convicted.

Madeline - called Kara by her parents - died Easter Sunday at the family's rural Weston home. An autopsy determined she died from undiagnosed diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body. The girl likely had some symptoms of the disease for several weeks and months, court records said.

The couple and their attorney did not immediately return messages left by The Associated Press.

Falstad said the Neumanns have cooperated with investigators and were not under arrest. They have agreed to make an initial court appearance Wednesday, she said.

Most parents would seek immediate medical help for a child who cannot speak, eat, drink, walk or breathe easily as was the case with Kara for about 48 hours before she died, Falstad said.

There may be a precedent-setting religious defense and issues of parental rights, "however, neither is absolute," the prosecutor said. The state must protect children, she said.

Leilani Neumann, 40, told AP previously she never expected her daughter to die. The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, but they are not crazy, religious people and have nothing against doctors, she said.

According to the criminal complaint, the mother tried to feed her daughter chicken broth on Easter. "Shortly after that she stopped breathing," the mother told investigators.

Mrs. Neumann said she never considered taking the girl, a straight-A student who was being home-schooled, to a doctor.

"We just thought it was a spiritual attack and we prayed for her. My husband Dale was crying and mentioned taking Kara to the doctor and I said, 'The Lord's going to heal her and we continued to pray,'" the mother said in a written statement to police.

On the day the girl died, the parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy on March 24. "They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,'" the medical examiner wrote in a report.

The father told investigators he noticed his daughter was weak and slower for about two weeks but he attributed it to symptoms of the girl reaching puberty, the complaint said.

He said she ate a meal from McDonald's on March 21.

But by late the next afternoon, according to the criminal complaint, the father wrote an e-mail with the headline, "Help our daughter needs emergency prayer!!!!." It said his daughter was "very weak and pale at the moment with hardly any strength."

The girl's grandmother, Evalani Gordon, told police that she learned her granddaughter could not walk or talk on March 22 and advised Leilani Neumann to take the girl to a doctor.

Randall Wormgoor, a friend of the Neumanns, told police that Dale Neumann led Bible studies at his business, Monkey Mo Coffee Shop, and believed physical illness was due to sin, curable by prayer and by asking for forgiveness from God, the complaint said.

Wormgoor said he and his wife, Althea, were at the Neumann home when the girl died. Wormgoor said he urged the father to seek medical help and was told the illness "was a test of faith for the Neumann family and asked the Wormgoors to join them in praying for Kara to get well," the complaint said.

Althea Wormgoor said she "implored" the parents to seek medical help for the girl, the complaint said.

Evalani Gordon eventually contacted a daughter-in-law in California, who called police on a non-emergency line to report the girl was in a coma and needed medical help. An ambulance was dispatched shortly before some friends in the home called 911 to report the girl had stopped breathing, authorities said.

One relative told police that Kara's mother believed the girl "died because the devil is trying to stop Leilani from starting her own ministry," the complaint said.

The Neumanns said they moved to Weston, a suburb of Wausau in central Wisconsin, from California about two years ago. The couple has three other children, ages 13 to 16 who are living with relatives.

KCChiefsMan
04-28-2008, 04:23 PM
good lock them up. I bet their reaction to their daughters death was "oh well, I guess that's what the lord wanted"

religion makes people stupid and crazy sometimes. It sounds like they almost wanted their daughter to die.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-28-2008, 04:27 PM
It sounds like they almost wanted their daughter to die.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. It's hard raising a kid with a disability, and it wouldn't surprise if any of these spirtual healers just didn't want to deal with it. JMO.

MIAdragon
05-23-2009, 11:06 AM
GUILTY BITCH!

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/817141/us-mother-guilty-of-letting-daughter-die

US mother guilty of letting daughter die

A mother accused of praying instead of seeking medical help for her dying 11-year-old daughter was found guilty of reckless homicide.

A Marathon County jury deliberated for about three and a half hours before convicting Leilani Neumann, 41, of Weston. She faces up to 25 years in prison, but no sentencing date had been set.

Neumann's daughter Madeline died from untreated diabetes on March 23, 2008, surrounded by people praying for her. When she stopped breathing, her parents' business and Bible study partners finally called the emergency dispatcher.

Prosecutors contend a reasonable parent would have known something was gravely wrong with Madeline and that her mother recklessly killed her by ignoring obvious symptoms, such as her inability to walk or talk.

During closing arguments, Marathon County district attorney Jill Falstad described Neumann as a religious zealot who let her daughter, called Kara by her parents, die as a test of faith.

"Basic medical care would have saved Kara's life - fluids and insulin," Falstad said. "There was plenty of time to save Kara's life."

Defence lawyer Gene Linehan said Neumann didn't realise her daughter was so ill and did all she could do to help, in line with the family's belief in faith-healing.

He said Neumann was a devout Christian and took good care of her four children.

"The woman did everything she could to help her," Linehan said. "That is the injustice in this case."

Neumann remained free on bond. Her husband, Dale, faces the same charge and was scheduled to stand trial in July.

Bowser
05-23-2009, 11:36 AM
Good.

Any parent who can't employ common sense when it comes to their child isn't worthy of being a parent.

The_Doctor10
05-23-2009, 12:41 PM
Freedom of Religion is part of our country.

They get to choose whether they go to a doctor.

It's a bad thing that happened but there isn't anything that should be done about it.

What I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways.

The next thing you know the government will make all of your decisions for you and also take all of your stuff to distribute to others .. you know, like Hillary and Obama want to do.

What a stupid fucking argument. It's not just 'freedom of religion' and that's that; these people let their little girl die. Your argument essentially suggests that because some Islamic nutbar fundamentalist steps onto a city bus and blows himself up, it's okay because 'that's his religion'.

This is criminally negligent homicide, not freedom of religion.

Pioli Zombie
05-23-2009, 12:57 PM
Why was this thread dredged up?????

This case has NOTHING to do with Christianity. It has to do with whackjobs who are and should go to prison.

99 percent of Christians understand God works through people, for example, doctors.
Posted via Mobile Device

MIAdragon
05-23-2009, 01:31 PM
Why was this thread dredged up?????

This case has NOTHING to do with Christianity. It has to do with whackjobs who are and should go to prison.

99 percent of Christians understand God works through people, for example, doctors.
Posted via Mobile Device

post 403 Einstein

luv
05-23-2009, 02:34 PM
I caught and episode of Law & Order a few weeks ago. The last part of it was about prosecuting a mother who chose not to vaccinate her son. He came down with measles or something, which can lie dormant for a few weeks, yet is contagious during that time. A baby, who was not old enough to have received the vaccination yet, contracted the illness and died.

I know it's not the same argument, but the religious aspect of this thread brought it to mind. If this girl's parents are both found guilty for not taking their child to a doctor, do you think the mother of the boy who spread the disease that killed the baby due to not getting her son vaccinated should have been held responsible?

bowener
05-23-2009, 02:55 PM
I caught and episode of Law & Order a few weeks ago. The last part of it was about prosecuting a mother who chose not to vaccinate her son. He came down with measles or something, which can lie dormant for a few weeks, yet is contagious during that time. A baby, who was not old enough to have received the vaccination yet, contracted the illness and died.

I know it's not the same argument, but the religious aspect of this thread brought it to mind. If this girl's parents are both found guilty for not taking their child to a doctor, do you think the mother of the boy who spread the disease that killed the baby due to not getting her son vaccinated should have been held responsible?

I dont see the same kind of responsibility in this case. I wish that there was a way for parents to be punished in some way for this, especially now that we are understanding autism better and that the original DR who proclaimed there to be a link stated that he lied about his findings and exaggerated it, and now we also found at least 2 genes that can naturally explain 15% of all cases of autism (I brought that up bc it seems to be the only reason no one gets it now).

However, I think cases where treatment is denied or neglected due to religious purposes, like JW's refusing transfusions, which means they cant have most surgeries, will ultimately be seen as illegal, at least for minors (if it isnt already). I cannot imagine being a parent and telling the Dr not to do life saving surgery on my child beause they cannot have a blood transfusion (something that there is no way anyone 200 years ago, let alone 2000 years ago, could have known about) because my religion says they cant.

To get back to the case you brought up Luv, I think it would be difficult to get them on criminal charges in the courts, but I think you could probably take them to civil court and sue the shit out of them and win... lots of jury members would be/should be sympathetic to you and your dead child.

Chaunceythe3rd
05-23-2009, 05:26 PM
Why is it that you have to pass a test to get a driver's license or get a job but any idiot can get married, have kids and abuse them and these tragedies continue?