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jAZ
03-29-2008, 11:46 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23847511/

Gay youth's killing sparks tolerance debate
Activists demand that middle schools do more to teach tolerance
The Associated Press
updated 1:06 p.m. MT, Fri., March. 28, 2008

OXNARD, Calif. - Larry King was a gay eighth-grader who used to come to school in makeup, high heels and earrings. And when the other boys made fun of him, he would boldly tease them right back by flirting with them.

That may have been what got him killed.

On Feb. 12, another student, Brandon McInerney, 14, shot him twice in the head at the back of the computer lab at their junior high school, police say.

The slaying of the 15-year-old boy has alarmed gay rights activists and led to demands that middle schools do more to educate youngsters about discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Police would not discuss McInerney's motive. But the day before the shooting, King told McInerney he liked him, eighth-grader Eduardo Segure told the Ventura County Star.

If King had flirted with the other boy, "that can be very threatening to someone's ego and their sense of identity," said Jaana Juvonen, a psychology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles.

Hate-crime allegation
McInerney was jailed on $770,000 bail on an adult murder charge that could put him behind bars for life. Prosecutors also filed a hate-crime enhancement, which could bring three more years if McInerney is found to have acted on the basis of the victim's race, religion, nationality or sexual orientation.

The shooting has galvanized Oxnard, a city of nearly 200,000 people about 60 miles northwest of Los Angeles. Several vigils for King have been held, including a march that drew about 1,000 people to this strawberry-growing section of Ventura County.

Like the killings of some other gay students such as Matthew Shepard in Wyoming and Brandon Teena, the Nebraska transsexual whose story was the subject of the movie "Boys Don't Cry" King's death has drawn national attention and outraged many gays.

Comic Ellen DeGeneres, who is a lesbian, said on her talk show Feb. 28: "Larry was not a second-class citizen. I'm not a second-class citizen. It is OK if you are gay."

'He wasn't afraid'
Students at E.O. Green Junior High said the other kids used to taunt King, call him names and throw wet paper towels at him in the boys' restroom, and he would bravely fire back by flirting with them and chasing them.

"He didn't like people insulting him," said his friend Miriam Lopez, 13. "Larry was brave enough to bring high heels and makeup to school and he wasn't afraid of anything."

Jerry Dannenberg, superintendent of the Hueneme School District, would not discuss details of what went on between King and McInerney but said students are encouraged to come forward if they have been threatened.

He also said that King was free to wear women's accessories with his uniform of white shirt and dark pants because the dress code prohibits only those items that could be a safety threat, such as steel-toed shoes.

"If girls are wearing jewelry, you can't stop boys from wearing it, too," he said. "Each gender has the right to wear what the other does."


The school system said that it has tolerance programs in its middle schools, but that sexual orientation is often not dealt with until high school. Since the killing, school officials have been meeting with gay leaders about changing the program.

"With young people coming out at younger ages, our schools especially our junior highs and middle schools need to be proactive about teaching respect for diversity based on sexual orientation and gender identity," said Carolyn Laub, executive director of the Gay-Straight Alliance Network. "The tragic death of Larry King is a wake-up call for our schools to better protect students from harassment at school."

Abuse and harassment
A 2005 survey by the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network found that more than 64 percent of gay and lesbian students report verbal, sexual or physical harassment at school, and 29 percent said they missed at least a day of school in the previous month out of fear for their safety. The group is holding its annual "Day of Silence" in memory of King on April 25.

The families of both boys have refused to comment. An e-mail message left for McInerney's attorney was not immediately returned.

Both teens have been described as good kids.

King and his mother crocheted hundreds of scarves that were shipped to U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan. The avid singer planned to belt out the national anthem at his brother's opening-day baseball game this spring.

"He had an amazing voice and was always singing," said Averi Laskey, 13, a friend since elementary school. "He would stick up for you no matter what. Larry was the best kind of person you could meet."

McInerney was described as the typical eighth-grader, goofy and fun to be around. He trained to be a lifeguard and took martial arts. He also enrolled in the Young Marines, a group similar to the Army's Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps.

Rough upbringings
The two had at least one thing in common: rough upbringings.

King had been in foster care at a center for abused and neglected children since November, said Steve Elson, the facility's chief executive. Confidentiality laws prevented him from saying why.

McInerney's parents accused each other of domestic violence and filed dueling restraining orders, according to court records. Several months before McInerney was born, his father was accused of shooting his mother in the elbow. Kendra McInerney told a local paper she struggled with drug addiction for many years. The couple divorced in 2002.

Jay Smith, director of the Ventura County Rainbow Alliance, a gay rights organization, questioned whether teachers have enough training to deal with gay teens.

"Those of us being out remember being bullied and we don't want to see that happen to another kid," he said.


Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 12:02 AM
Tragic. Nothing but tragic.

Iowanian
03-30-2008, 12:04 AM
We'd better hurry up and pass some laws to stop that.

Guru
03-30-2008, 12:05 AM
We'd better hurry up and pass some laws to stop that.
There can never be too many.

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 12:06 AM
The school system said that it has tolerance programs in its middle schools, but that sexual orientation is often not dealt with until high school. Since the killing, school officials have been meeting with gay leaders about changing the program.

"With young people coming out at younger ages, our schools — especially our junior highs and middle schools — need to be proactive about teaching respect for diversity based on sexual orientation and gender identity," said Carolyn Laub, executive director of the Gay-Straight Alliance Network. "The tragic death of Larry King is a wake-up call for our schools to better protect students from harassment at school."

I absolutely agree. By the middle school years kids are sufficiently aware of what's going on. They should be taught how to handle less widespread sexual orientations.

Adept Havelock
03-30-2008, 12:07 AM
Oy. :shake:

Guru
03-30-2008, 12:08 AM
Wish I could have the 70's and 80's back again.

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 12:12 AM
Guys, this is a dead kid who was killed by another kid who has likely ruined his own life.

Laws are only a reactive answer. We need preventive answers as well, and teaching coping strategies to every kid of every orientation is part of the answer.

Iowanian
03-30-2008, 12:14 AM
I should have probably used my new glitter lip balm....its made by Liz Clayboure and its called sarcasm.


Its a shitty thing for everyone involved. It shouldn't have happend. Ever rule broken, has already been illegalized to death.


Who didn't know someone in school that went out of their way every day to show everyone exactly how unique they were...how different....and then act indignant when they actually get some of the attention they were seeking in the first place?

chagrin
03-30-2008, 12:15 AM
They killed the wrong Larry King


Seriously though, there's nothing remotely acceptable about hurting another human being simply because they are different than "the majority".

jAZ
03-30-2008, 12:16 AM
I find it interesting that Larry responded to those harassing him by being strong-willed and with a sense of humor... by flirting with those who ridiculed him.

Unfortunately, it seems that sort of don't-take-any-crap attitude got him killed. Although, I couldn't quite tell if in this case, he was expressing a sincere crush when he was killed.

jAZ
03-30-2008, 12:18 AM
Who didn't know someone in school that went out of their way every day to show everyone exactly how unique they were...how different....and then act indignant when they actually get some of the attention they were seeking in the first place?
Yes, I'm sure he's acting all indignant in his coffin.

Guru
03-30-2008, 12:18 AM
There is a lot to be said for not drawing attention to yourself.

Extra Point
03-30-2008, 12:21 AM
Sad, sad, sad.

Iowanian
03-30-2008, 12:22 AM
I'm in no way blaming the kid for his own death.....


It sounds like he did some antagonizing of his own.


How many other people were murdered in the US that day?
Less tragic?

markk
03-30-2008, 12:26 AM
it sounds like he was getting bullied but isn't he bullying back if he keeps flirting with the other boys even after they make it clear they are not interested? doesn't that constitute harassment of some sort?

not defending the killing of course, justice should be served to that kid. nothing wrong with being yourself but i think them making fun of his lifestyle choice is kind of the same thing as him mockingly flirting with them

wish kids still fought with their fists like they used to

KCChiefsMan
03-30-2008, 12:26 AM
I'm in no way blaming the kid for his own death.....


It sounds like he did some antagonizing of his own.


How many other people were murdered in the US that day?
Less tragic?

usually hate crimes make the news over 90 yr olds kicking the bucket or a bad car accident. But I see your point.

Guru
03-30-2008, 12:29 AM
Don't worry. Obama will fix everything with a couple of speeches.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 12:32 AM
I would think if I came to school in a woman's garb, I'd expect some ribbing

I would also think if i was ribbing I would be prepared for that person to defend themselves

Me thinks, dude came onto him and it hit a little too close to home.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-30-2008, 12:32 AM
I'm in no way blaming the kid for his own death.....


It sounds like he did some antagonizing of his own.


How many other people were murdered in the US that day?
Less tragic?

QFT

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 12:33 AM
Don't worry. Obama will fix everything with a couple of speeches.
you're kidding right?

McCain would try to run them down, but will probably break a hip in the chase

Mr. Flopnuts
03-30-2008, 12:33 AM
it sounds like he was getting bullied but isn't he bullying back if he keeps flirting with the other boys even after they make it clear they are not interested? doesn't that constitute harassment of some sort?

not defending the killing of course, justice should be served to that kid. nothing wrong with being yourself but i think them making fun of his lifestyle choice is kind of the same thing as him mockingly flirting with them

wish kids still fought with their fists like they used to

So, instead of throwing fisticuffs, (if he was so inclined) he fought fire with fire and he's the bad guy?

jAZ
03-30-2008, 12:34 AM
it sounds like he was getting bullied but isn't he bullying back if he keeps flirting with the other boys even after they make it clear they are not interested? doesn't that constitute harassment of some sort?

not defending the killing of course, justice should be served to that kid. nothing wrong with being yourself but i think them making fun of his lifestyle choice is kind of the same thing as him mockingly flirting with them

wish kids still fought with their fists like they used to

If the kid complained about being harassed... people would say "you brought this on yourself", or call him a pussy (not for being gay, but) for not standing up for himself.

Just seems to me that this kid was doing exactly what most people here in CP would do in an analgous situation (ie, being picked on by a bully and not running away and not putting up with it).

Seems like no matter what choice gets made, someone is going to find blame in what he was doing.


(note, FTF, I understand that everyone on here surely recognizes that this kid shouldn't have been killed.)

Guru
03-30-2008, 12:39 AM
you're kidding right?

McCain would try to run them down, but will probably break a hip in the chase

Of course I am. You, of all people, should know that by now. :shake::D

I do believe had this kid not gone out of his way to draw attention to himself, he might still be alive though.

He definitely didn't deserve death though. The other kid probably won't get what he deserves either because of his age.

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 12:42 AM
it sounds like he was getting bullied but isn't he bullying back if he keeps flirting with the other boys even after they make it clear they are not interested? doesn't that constitute harassment of some sort?

not defending the killing of course, justice should be served to that kid. nothing wrong with being yourself but i think them making fun of his lifestyle choice is kind of the same thing as him mockingly flirting with them

wish kids still fought with their fists like they used to

You make a good point. Embarrassing the homicidal kid in school is probably not a wise strategy, and perhaps a teacher could have helped in that regard. But this school was apparently not teaching about diversity in sexual orientation, so it's safe to assume that that teacher did not exist.

Even more reason for teaching these kids how to deal with each other. All of these kids have to be taught how to find safe haven (the ones who are in the minority as well as the ones who are in the majority). They're dealing with stuff some of us older folks couldn't have imagined.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 12:42 AM
I'm sorry, but how many parents would allow their gay son to go to school wearing makeup and high heels?!?!?!

I'm not saying that he deserved what he got, but this is just wrong.

Demonpenz
03-30-2008, 12:43 AM
oh sweet the right and wrong people have arrived!

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 12:46 AM
So, instead of throwing fisticuffs, (if he was so inclined) he fought fire with fire and he's the bad guy?

No, he's not the bad guy. He's the dead guy. I think he should have been equipped (hopefully by his parents, but with support from the school) with options to help him deal with bigoted (and very likely scared) little assholes who might want to shoot him in a way that was less likely to get him killed.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 12:48 AM
Of course I am. You, of all people, should know that by now. :shake::D

I do believe had this kid not gone out of his way to draw attention to himself, he might still be alive though.

He definitely didn't deserve death though. The other kid probably won't get what he deserves either because of his age.

oh i agree he probably would still be alive

It's just a sad state of affairs when drawing attention to yourself can get you killed

Guru
03-30-2008, 12:48 AM
No, he's not the bad guy. He's the dead guy. I think he should have been equipped (hopefully by his parents, but with support from the school) with options to help him deal with bigoted (and very likely scared) little assholes who might want to shoot him in a way that was less likely to get him killed.

You mean like, walk away?

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 12:50 AM
You mean like, walk away?

yep that works best when dealing with bullies

:shake:

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 12:51 AM
You mean like, walk away?

I have no idea. There are people who specialize in teaching this kind of stuff. I'm not one of them.

I just wish both kids had been taught before this happened.

jAZ
03-30-2008, 12:51 AM
So, instead of throwing fisticuffs, (if he was so inclined) he fought fire with fire and he's the bad guy?

What is the proper response is in this situation?

And if you (or whomever) believes the proper response is to not be a cross-dresser, etc... then what about the kid who's gay but not so out there, but getting harassed anyway? Or the kid who isn't even gay, but getting harassed for it anyway?

Seems like this kids' response is pretty reasonable/modest for anyone in such a situation. Certainly better than committing suicide or attacking/killing the bully.

Guru
03-30-2008, 12:53 AM
I have no idea. There are people who specialize in teaching this kind of stuff. I'm not one of them.

I just wish both kids had been taught before this happened.

Just pointing out the simple solution. If more people would just "walk away" things would be a hell of a lot better. This "Don't dis me" crap has got to stop.

jAZ
03-30-2008, 12:53 AM
I'm sorry, but how many parents would allow their gay son to go to school wearing makeup and high heels?!?!?!

I'm not saying that he deserved what he got, but this is just wrong.
Not safe to assume parents knew. How many little girls get to school and put on makeup then take it off before they get home and parents never know. Same could be true here.

mikey23545
03-30-2008, 12:56 AM
Coming to middle school in high heels, earrings and makeup?

Flirting with guys who are straight?

It's one thing to be gay, but engaging in self-destructive behavior is a totally separate problem. It's a tragedy that he died, but sometimes you have to be a little realistic. You don't drape yourself in raw meat and take a stroll through the lion cage at the zoo....

unlurking
03-30-2008, 12:58 AM
oh i agree he probably would still be alive

It's just a sad state of affairs when drawing attention to yourself can get you killed
Drawing attention to yourself?!?!

Yeah, like dressing up in a Klan hood and robes while walking down Quindaro Blvd. is drawing attention to yourself. I'm sorry, but a teenage boy wearing makeup and high heels to school is one of the dumbest things a kid could do. I don't blame the kid, but I do blame the parents for not helping the kid deal with it. Eighth grade is WAY TOO YOUNG to be making statements about sexual lifestyles.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 01:00 AM
Not safe to assume parents knew. How many little girls get to school and put on makeup then take it off before they get home and parents never know. Same could be true here.
Then the parents aren't doing there job being involved with there children.

jAZ
03-30-2008, 01:04 AM
You don't drape yourself in raw meat and take a stroll through the lion cage at the zoo....
It's middle school, not the yard at San Quentin.

stevieray
03-30-2008, 01:05 AM
I have no idea. There are people who specialize in teaching this kind of stuff. I'm not one of them.

I just wish both kids had been taught before this happened.

taught what? it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out someone is gay, especially if they are wearing high heels, etc..kids are going to discriminate against each other, to what degree and how harsh is determined by their parents...and deep down most know what is right and wrong

while extremely tragic, if he hadn't flirted, it wouldn't have happened. same thing happened on Jenny Jones, and everyone keeps glossing over what was said..that to certain individuals, it hits at ego and self identity...are unwanted advances on women by men tolerated? in a school setting?

makes you want to cry how the exposure of adult issues to kids is robbing everyone of our innocence...

jAZ
03-30-2008, 01:06 AM
Then the parents aren't doing there job being involved with there children.
Hard to judge that, but it's possible.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 01:07 AM
It's middle school, not the yard at San Quentin.
Sadly, the yard at San Quentin would probably be a SAFER place to wear makeup and high heels. If you don't understand that, you are probably too far removed from school.

jAZ
03-30-2008, 01:08 AM
Eighth grade is WAY TOO YOUNG to be making statements about sexual lifestyles.
It's a reality for both sexual orientations. Denying it doesn't help.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-30-2008, 01:08 AM
What is the proper response is in this situation?

And if you (or whomever) believes the proper response is to not be a cross-dresser, etc... then what about the kid who's gay but not so out there, but getting harassed anyway? Or the kid who isn't even gay, but getting harassed for it anyway?

Seems like this kids' response is pretty reasonable/modest for anyone in such a situation. Certainly better than committing suicide or attacking/killing the bully.

I think you misunderstood my post. I don't have any problem with how he handled the situation. He did it non violently, which is what he was taught. Not neccessarily best, but it is what he was taught. If not at home, in school. He's allowed to be himself, if other kids can't handle that, it's their problem. It's sad in this case it became his problem and cost him his life. He's a victim. Period.

jAZ
03-30-2008, 01:10 AM
Sadly, the yard at San Quentin would probably be a SAFER place to wear makeup and high heels. If you don't understand that, you are probably too far removed from school.
How many JR kids are killed in a year?

mikey23545
03-30-2008, 01:11 AM
It's middle school, not the yard at San Quentin.

Tell that to the dead kid, genius.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 01:12 AM
It's a reality for both sexual orientations. Denying it doesn't help.
The REALITY is that no matter the sexual orientation, NO FOURTEEN YEAR OLD BOY should be going to school wearing makeup and high heels. Sexually provoking others IS NOT a healthy activity for TEENAGERS.

By saying what the boy did was OK and should be protected, you are acting EXACTLY like the parents who put aborted fetus billboards in the hands of 6 year old kids at a protest. You are acting like the parent that gives their teenagers liquor. You are treating your kids like adults, which they ARE NOT.

jAZ
03-30-2008, 01:13 AM
makes you want to cry how the exposure of adult issues to kids is robbing everyone of our innocence...
I'll ignore the rest of your post and just say that I agree with this 100%.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 01:15 AM
How many JR kids are killed in a year?
JR?

When I was in school, it was not unusual to attend funerals for your friends and classmates. It was not unusual to visit them in the hospital. It was not unusual to carry weapons.

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 01:17 AM
taught what? it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out someone is gay, especially if they are wearing high heels, etc..kids are going to discriminate against each other, to what degree and how harsh is determined by their parents...and deep down most what is right and wrong

while extremely tragic, if he hadn't flirted, it wouldn't have happened. same thing happened on Jenny Jones, and everyone keeps glossing over what was said..that to certain individuals, it hits at ego and self identity...are unwanted advances on women by men tolerated? in a school setting?

makes you want to cry how the exposure of adult issues to kids is robbing everyone of our innocence...

We're not talking about little kids here. I have a 9th grade daughter, a 7th grade son and a daughter in kindergarten. I understand that there are certain subjects that are inappropriate for certain ages.

I also remember that by the time I was in junior high I knew exactly what I wanted to do, exactly who I wanted to do it with, and I had a pretty good idea of who I'd settle for instead.

13 year old kids are sexualized already. The question is whether we are going to leave a middle school kid alone to figure out how to cope with his own and others' sexuality, or whether we're going to recognize that 13 year olds aren't the wisest among us.

They need our help. Our help comes in the form of being good parents, encouraging our kids to practice what is in keeping with our families' faiths, and insisting that our schools help us teach our kids who are trying to find their own identities how to deal with other identities in a way that keeps everyone safe.

Let's just figure out a way to get all these kids to adulthood with the least damage possible.

stevieray
03-30-2008, 01:17 AM
I'll ignore the rest of your post and just say that I agree with this 100%.

ignore all of it, I wasn't responding to you.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 01:25 AM
ignore all of it, I wasn't responding to you.
I agree with your post 100% (all of it, strangely enough), but I have to admit that jAZ did reference what I thought was the most poignant part of your post.

stevieray
03-30-2008, 01:27 AM
We're not talking about little kids here. I have a 9th grade daughter, a 7th grade son and a daughter in kindergarten. I understand that there are certain subjects that are inappropriate for certain ages.

I also remember that by the time I was in junior high I knew exactly what I wanted to do, exactly who I wanted to do it with, and I had a pretty good idea of who I'd settle for instead.

13 year old kids are sexualized already. The question is whether we are going to allow a middle school kid alone to figure out how to cope with his own and others' sexuality, or whether we're going to recognize that 13 year olds aren't the wisest among us.

They need our help. Our help comes in the form of being good parents, encouraging our kids to practices that are in keeping with our families' faiths, and insisting that our schools help us teach our kids who are trying to find their own identities how to deal with other identities in a way that keeps everyone safe.

Let's just figure out a way to get all these kids to adulthood with the least damage possible.

Schools are the last absolute last place I want them teaching my kids anything other than academics. that's part of the damn problem, too many parents expecting the schools to raise their children for them...we are a volatile nation that has been pimping violent and agressive music, tv and movies for fifteen years..violence hit the schools and what did we do? got rid of men teachers, corporal punishment and then had the audacity to institute a zero tolerance policy, basically telling your kid one mistake and you're branded...dumb down boys with drugs... another stupid label...it doesn't surprise me that a kid exposed to adult issues with out enough life experience ended up resorting to a very adult consequence...there are no winners in this case...at all.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 01:33 AM
Schools are the last absolute last place I want them teaching my kids anything other than academics. that's part of the damn problem, too many parents expecting the schools to raise their children for them...we are a volatile nation that has been pimping violent and agressive music, tv and movies for fifteen years..violence hit the schools and what did we do? got rid of men teachers, corporal punishment and then had the audacity to institute a zero tolerance policy, basically telling your kid one mistake and you're branded...dumb down boys with drugs... another stupid label...it doesn't surprise me that a kid exposed to adult issues with out enough life experience ended up resorting to a very adult consequence...there are no winners in this case...at all.
I find it unnerving how much I am agreeing with you in this thread.

jAZ
03-30-2008, 01:38 AM
JR?

When I was in school, it was not unusual to attend funerals for your friends and classmates. It was not unusual to visit them in the hospital. It was not unusual to carry weapons.

Jr High.

You are telling me that "it was not unusual to attend funerals for your friends and classmates" at your junior high?

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 01:40 AM
Schools are the last absolute last place I want them teaching my kids anything other than academics. that's part of the damn problem, too many parents expecting the schools to raise their children for them...we are a volatille nation that has been pimping violent and agressive music, tv and movies for fifteen years..violence hit the schools and waht did we do? got tid of men teachers, corporal punishment and then had the audacity to institute a zero tolerance policy, basically telling your kid one mistake and you're branded...it doesn't surprise me that a kid exposed to adult issues with out enough life experience ended up resorting to a very adult consequence...there are no winners in this case...at all.

I understand and agree that parents should be held primarily responsible for raising their kids.

I understand your frustration with the performance of students in science and math especially. I agree that our schools should hold students to a more rigorous academic standard.

Perhaps we could also agree that there are many reasons that one student or another does not receive a good parental upbringing, and that perhaps the student could be saved by a caring teacher at his school. Perhaps he could be reached by a program that touches on ethical issues that are somehow not addressed in the family.

Maybe we might find agreement in the idea that rather than taking away school time that should be dedicated to core subjects, perhaps the answer could be found in expanding the school year to a year-round system.

Schools that teach age-appropriate coping strategies to their students are simply reinforcing what good parents already do, and substituting for what bad parents neglect to do.

I'm sorry. I went a bit long with this one.

Bump
03-30-2008, 01:44 AM
that's f-ed up man. I guess we know were the Phelps will be next week

HolmeZz
03-30-2008, 01:45 AM
while extremely tragic, if he hadn't flirted, it wouldn't have happened.

Mr. Family Values blaming the 15 year old for getting murdered?

If he wasn't getting picked on, it wouldn't have happened.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 01:48 AM
Jr High.

You are telling me that "it was not unusual to attend funerals for your friends and classmates" at your junior high?
1 in mid (suicide), 3 in high school. Those are the funerals I attended, not the number of students killed in the that time frame. I would guess the number of student killed when/where I went to school to be closer to 2-4 mid / 10-15 high. Graduating class of over 800 in my high school.

Guru
03-30-2008, 01:48 AM
Schools are the last absolute last place I want them teaching my kids anything other than academics. that's part of the damn problem, too many parents expecting the schools to raise their children for them...we are a volatile nation that has been pimping violent and agressive music, tv and movies for fifteen years..violence hit the schools and what did we do? got rid of men teachers, corporal punishment and then had the audacity to institute a zero tolerance policy, basically telling your kid one mistake and you're branded...dumb down boys with drugs... another stupid label...it doesn't surprise me that a kid exposed to adult issues with out enough life experience ended up resorting to a very adult consequence...there are no winners in this case...at all.

:clap:

unlurking
03-30-2008, 01:49 AM
Mr. Family Values blaming the 15 year old for getting murdered?

If he wasn't getting picked on, it wouldn't have happened.
And if Harris and Klebold hadn't been picked on they wouldn't have killed all those kids at Columbine.

If he hadn't been wearing high heels and flirting with bullies he might have walked away with a black eye or less.

Guru
03-30-2008, 01:53 AM
I understand and agree that parents should be held primarily responsible for raising their kids.

I understand your frustration with the performance of students in science and math especially. I agree that our schools should hold students to a more rigorous academic standard.

Perhaps we could also agree that there are many reasons that one student or another does not receive a good parental upbringing, and that perhaps the student could be saved by a caring teacher at his school. Perhaps he could be reached by a program that touches on ethical issues that are somehow not addressed in the family.

Maybe we might find agreement in the idea that rather than taking away school time that should be dedicated to core subjects, perhaps the answer could be found in expanding the school year to a year-round system.

Schools that teach age-appropriate coping strategies to their students are simply reinforcing what good parents already do, and substituting for what bad parents neglect to do.

I'm sorry. I went a bit long with this one.
Year round school? Lets not start that crap up again. Yeah, lets keep the kids away from the family during the months that families really bond. The school year is long enough as it is. A full 3 weeks longer than when I was in school 20 years ago. Can't wait for the time that we will need the schools permission to go on a family vacation.

Guru
03-30-2008, 01:55 AM
And if Harris and Klebold hadn't been picked on they wouldn't have killed all those kids at Columbine.

If he hadn't been wearing high heels and flirting with bullies he might have walked away with a black eye or less.

If he would have just walked away instead of making an issue of it.

both kids were in the wrong here. Both sets of parents have a responsibility here too.

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 01:56 AM
...that's part of the damn problem, too many parents expecting the schools to raise their children for them...

Yes. I agree.

Now will you agree that there's absolutely no way to force people to be good, caring parents?

So, since I assume that we agree that there are a bunch of uncaring parents out there, and there's nothing we can do about it, we'd better come up with Plan B. I'm afraid that there's no other way to approach Plan B except through the schools.

jAZ
03-30-2008, 01:56 AM
1 in mid (suicide), 3 in high school. Those are the funerals I attended, not the number of students killed in the that time frame. I would guess the number of student killed when/where I went to school to be closer to 2-4 mid / 10-15 high. Graduating class of over 800 in my high school.
We aren't talking about HS. It's obviously very different.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 01:58 AM
Drawing attention to yourself?!?!

Yeah, like dressing up in a Klan hood and robes while walking down Quindaro Blvd. is drawing attention to yourself. I'm sorry, but a teenage boy wearing makeup and high heels to school is one of the dumbest things a kid could do. I don't blame the kid, but I do blame the parents for not helping the kid deal with it. Eighth grade is WAY TOO YOUNG to be making statements about sexual lifestyles.

Regardless of your opinion of how far/how extreme it is. If this kid hadn't drawn attention to himself he would still be alive. I think the dude just needed some therapy, and I for one, blame the parents for not reading that or the schools for not contacting or scheduling a conference call. I

Furthermore eighth grade is WAY TOO YOUNG to shoot a kid who dressed like a woman and kill him, because he flirted with him

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 01:59 AM
Year round school? Lets not start that crap up again. Yeah, lets keep the kids away from the family during the months that families really bond. The school year is long enough as it is. A full 3 weeks longer than when I was in school 20 years ago. Can't wait for the time that we will need the schools permission to go on a family vacation.

Most of the country has kind of moved on from our agrarian roots. We don't really need to "bond" around the cornfields during the planting season anymore.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 02:00 AM
Jesus jaz can you shorten up the thread starter

It takes like 3 screens worth of scrolling

HolmeZz
03-30-2008, 02:00 AM
And if Harris and Klebold hadn't been picked on they wouldn't have killed all those kids at Columbine.

Possible. Don't know why you're equating an instance where killing was wrong with an instance where killing was wrong though.

If he hadn't been wearing high heels and flirting with bullies he might have walked away with a black eye or less.

Then everybody's a winner!

Guru
03-30-2008, 02:01 AM
Most of the country has kind of moved on from our agrarian roots. We don't really need to "bond" around the cornfields during the planting season anymore.

thats part of the problem too.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 02:01 AM
Year round school? Lets not start that crap up again. Yeah, lets keep the kids away from the family during the months that families really bond. The school year is long enough as it is. A full 3 weeks longer than when I was in school 20 years ago. Can't wait for the time that we will need the schools permission to go on a family vacation.


I think it's too long, how long are you're family vacations?

3 months?

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:02 AM
We aren't talking about HS. It's obviously very different.
OK, so skipping HS. Like I said, attending funerals is not an anomaly as a middle school student. It came along with indoor plumbing and electricity unfortunately.

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 02:02 AM
...Furthermore eighth grade is WAY TOO YOUNG to shoot a kid who dressed like a woman and kill him, because he flirted with him

You have a more appropriate age in mind? 10th grade? Wait until after graduation?

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 02:04 AM
thats part of the problem too.

Okay. So the answer is go back to that time?

It's just not an option, Guru.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 02:04 AM
OK, so skipping HS. Like I said, attending funerals is not an anomaly as a middle school student. It came along with indoor plumbing and electricity unfortunately.

Had a friend shoot another guy in the head (accidental-playing with guns) middle school, no other violent deaths in my entire educational career

so it's not all that common either

Guru
03-30-2008, 02:05 AM
I think it's too long, how long are you're family vacations?

3 months?

If they go to year round school it won't even matter. Summer is three months out of the year (actually less now) that kids can just be kids. We are making them grow up too damned fast with all the social issues that shouldn't even be affecting them at that age.

Hell I am becoming more of a fan of the home schooling these days. The schools are nowhere for kids to be anymore.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 02:05 AM
You have a more appropriate age in mind? 10th grade? Wait until after graduation?


no time

basically commenting about approriateness of "kids acting out" like was being pushed onto the victim and not the killer

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:07 AM
Possible. Don't know why you're equating an instance where killing was wrong with an instance where killing was wrong though.


If he wasn't getting picked on, it wouldn't have happened.

Killing Wrong vs. Killing Wrong
Kids Bullied vs. Kids Bullied

Oh, I'll bet a 14 year old in high heels and make up flirting with the school bully is wonderful way too ease tensions.

:rolleyes:

HolmeZz
03-30-2008, 02:08 AM
...that's part of the damn problem, too many parents expecting the schools to raise their children for them...

You always use unrelated issues and mold them into bigger narratives that you want to preach about.

How about this: I blame religion. All of'em. They teach that it's ok to hate someone for being different than you(say, homosexual).

Guru
03-30-2008, 02:08 AM
Okay. So the answer is go back to that time?

It's just not an option, Guru.

Why? Because society says so? Just because we can't physically go back to that time doesn't mean we can't raise our children to have the values of that time.

There are way too many issues cropping up in schools these days that kids should not even be exposed to. But they are forced to so they don't even get to be kids anymore.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 02:09 AM
If they go to year round school it won't even matter. Summer is three months out of the year (actually less now) that kids can just be kids. We are making them grow up too damned fast with all the social issues that shouldn't even be affecting them at that age.

Hell I am becoming more of a fan of the home schooling these days. The schools are nowhere for kids to be anymore.

I disagree. Schools are a place to learn. Sure they've become more, but that isn't the purpose. My kids are off every day at 3, have weekends off and get more holidays off then the post office. So there's time to do the family thing. I would rather have my kid at school then setting in front of the tv.

Chiefmanwillcatch
03-30-2008, 02:10 AM
Whats worse than an 8th grader dressing in women's clothes?

A psycho 14 year old with a gun.

Looks like a nice kid. Who would have known the murder had bigger issues.

http://columbiancokane.blogspot.com/2008/03/outrage-in-california-remember-lawrence.html

Guru
03-30-2008, 02:13 AM
I disagree. Schools are a place to learn. Sure they've become more, but that isn't the purpose. My kids are off every day at 3, have weekends off and get more holidays off then the post office. So there's time to do the family thing. I would rather have my kid at school then setting in front of the tv.

That is the way it should be. However, this country wants schools to be the replacement parents and teach them more than just academics.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:14 AM
Had a friend shoot another guy in the head (accidental-playing with guns) middle school, no other violent deaths in my entire educational career

so it's not all that common either
How many student in your school? This school is outside LA. I'm guessing school size is a large factor. We had almost 3600 kids in my HS.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 02:15 AM
That is the way it should be. However, this country wants schools to be the replacement parents and teach them more than just academics.

no that's worthless lazy parents
not this whole country

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 02:17 AM
How many student in your school? This school is outside LA. I'm guessing school size is a large factor. We had almost 3600 kids in my HS.
approximately 2000 in grades 9-12

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:17 AM
Whats worse than an 8th grader dressing in women's clothes?

A psycho 14 year old with a gun.

Looks like a nice kid. Who would have known the murder had bigger issues.

http://columbiancokane.blogspot.com/2008/03/outrage-in-california-remember-lawrence.html
OK, can we now officially blame the parents?

A look at both of the children's lives leaves one feeling sympathy for both of the boys. King had been living in a home for troubled and abused children for about six months prior to the shooting. His friends and classmates say that he was withdrawn socially at times and it seems that he was a kid lacking stability in his life; something that is essential for a teenager going through those tough adolescent years, especially a gay teenager who is subject to abuse at school.

Of course Brandon McInerney's life was not all silver spoons and roses, either. He grew up in a household with a father that abused his mother (even shooting her once, for which he spent 120 days in jail) and a mother who physically abused him. Both parents appear to have been addicted to drugs and the house that they lived in was a local drug house where junkies could be found passed out on the floor. McInerney, as I said earlier, procured the gun from his father's home where he lived after his parents got divorced.

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 02:20 AM
Why? Because society says so? Just because we can't physically go back to that time doesn't mean we can't raise our children to have the values of that time.

There are way too many issues cropping up in schools these days that kids should not even be exposed to. But they are forced to so they don't even get to be kids anymore.

Guru, you should do everything you can to make sure that the generation that follows you is as responsible as you are. I'd never argue against that.

The fact remains, however, that the specific values of that (agrarian) time will not equip our kids to cope with the challenges of this time.

I'd like to look at solutions for school schedules that aren't tied to wheat production.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 02:24 AM
Guru, you should do everything you can to make sure that the generation that follows you is as responsible as you are. I'd never argue against that.

The fact remains, however, that the specific values of that (agrarian) time will not equip our kids to cope with the challenges of this time.

I'd like to look at solutions for school schedules that aren't tied to wheat production.
hell I'd be happy if there was no need for a nursery in the high school

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 02:24 AM
OK, can we now officially blame the parents?

Or the parents of these ****ed up parents? Let's use some of our energy blaming someone.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:26 AM
hell I'd be happy if there was no need for a nursery in the high school
ROFL

HolmeZz
03-30-2008, 02:26 AM
Killing Wrong vs. Killing Wrong
Kids Bullied vs. Kids Bullied

Yes, so if it was wrong for the kids who got bullied to kill, clearly it's wrong for the kids doing the bullying to kill. Yet some of you are pinning it on the gay kid instead of directing your outrage on the other.

Oh, I'll bet a 14 year old in high heels and make up flirting with the school bully is wonderful way too ease tensions.

:rolleyes:

I don't think it was the kid's job to accommodate the bully. He only reacted, and it was in a similar antagonizing manner to what he was receiving. The bully decided to get violent. It's cause and effect, and you don't blame the effect for the cause.

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 02:26 AM
hell I'd be happy if there was no need for a nursery in the high school

Agreed.

But there is a need.

Now what?

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 02:26 AM
or stringing up a tall oak tree

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:29 AM
Or the parents of these ****ed up parents? Let's use some of our energy blaming someone.
Sure, and let's track all the way back to our forebears (OK, maybe I watched to much Enterprise).

Anyway, you CANNOT solve a problem until you DEFINE the problem. How would you define this problem? Oh wait, that's a waste of energy. Let's just throw money at a liberal tax shelter.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:33 AM
Yes, so if it was wrong for the kids who got bullied to kill, clearly it's wrong for the kids doing the bullying to kill. Yet some of you are pinning it on the gay kid instead of directing your outrage on the other.



I don't think it was the kid's job to accommodate the bully. He only reacted, and it was in a similar antagonizing manner to what he was receiving. The bully decided to get violent. It's cause and effect, and you don't blame the effect for the cause.
No, you blame the person who taught either of these kids that shooting people or making sexual advances as a 14 year old transvestite was OK.

Considering your tack that the transvestite has no blame, you need to re-think your cause/effect analogy (you have it backwards unless you are saying we cannot blame the shooter).

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 02:40 AM
Sure, and let's track all the way back to our forebears (OK, maybe I watched to much Enterprise).

Anyway, you CANNOT solve a problem until you DEFINE the problem. How would you define this problem? Oh wait, that's a waste of energy. Let's just throw money at a liberal tax shelter.

As much as I appreciate that you may somehow be serious, until you remove any reference to Star Trek from your post, I won't engage in any further conversation with you. This is an adults-only conversation.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:46 AM
As much as I appreciate that you may somehow be serious, until you remove any reference to Star Trek from your post, I won't engage in any further conversation with you. This is an adults-only conversation.
Nice deflection, I'll remove all color from my post just so you don't get distracted...

Let's gnash our teeth and get in an uproar over something we have no plans of trying to understand and resolve. Let's bitch 'n moan like a woman on the rag, with no real intention of doing anything to solve or understand any problem beyond bitching and moaning.

J Diddy
03-30-2008, 02:50 AM
Nice deflection, I'll remove all color from my post just so you don't get distracted...

Let's gnash our teeth and get in an uproar over something we have no plans of trying to understand and resolve. Let's bitch 'n moan like a woman on the rag, with no real intention of doing anything to solve or understand any problem beyond bitching and moaning.

sounds great

you bring the chips I got the beer

HolmeZz
03-30-2008, 02:50 AM
No, you blame the person who taught either of these kids that shooting people or making sexual advances as a 14 year old transvestite was OK.

There's no moral equivalency.

He made advances after he started getting bullied for how he looked. He didn't instigate the situation and he did not react in a violent way. There's no correct way to deal with bullying and there's no guarantee the same thing wouldn't have happened even if he didn't start ****ing with the other kid.

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 02:55 AM
Nice deflection, I'll remove all color from my post just so you don't get distracted...

Let's gnash our teeth and get in an uproar over something we have no plans of trying to understand and resolve. Let's bitch 'n moan like a woman on the rag, with no real intention of doing anything to solve or understand any problem beyond bitching and moaning.

Oh, yeah. That's much better. Anytime you can bring "a woman on the rag" into the conversation, you've served your cause well.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:56 AM
There's no moral equivalency.

He made advances after he started getting bullied for how he looked. He didn't instigate the situation and he did not react in a violent way. There's no correct way to deal with bullying and there's no guarantee the same thing wouldn't have happened even if he didn't start ****ing with the other kid.
I'm not talking moral equivalency. I'm stating that anyone with an intelligence level above that of a snapping turtle SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that dressing up in high heels in a public school WAS NOT going to end well. Someone should have paid some attention to this kid, he definitely needed help.

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:59 AM
Oh, yeah. That's much better. Anytime you can bring "a woman on the rag" into the conversation, you've served your cause well.
Wow, look at the bounce on that one!

Incredible!

Let me play too!!!

Umm, let's see. Oh, I got it!!!

You are a racist because you ignore my message based on the color of the words delivering it!!!!

Yeah!!!

unlurking
03-30-2008, 02:59 AM
sounds great

you bring the chips I got the beer
ROFL

Guru
03-30-2008, 03:02 AM
Guru, you should do everything you can to make sure that the generation that follows you is as responsible as you are. I'd never argue against that.

The fact remains, however, that the specific values of that (agrarian) time will not equip our kids to cope with the challenges of this time.

I'd like to look at solutions for school schedules that aren't tied to wheat production.

OK damnit, I am NOT that old. :cuss::D

HolmeZz
03-30-2008, 03:03 AM
I'm not talking moral equivalency. I'm stating that anyone with an intelligence level above that of a snapping turtle SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that dressing up in high heels in a public school WAS NOT going to end well.

And why wasn't it going to end well?

ClevelandBronco
03-30-2008, 03:03 AM
Wow, look at the bounce on that one!

Incredible!

Let me play too!!!

Umm, let's see. Oh, I got it!!!

You are a racist because you ignore my message based on the color of the words delivering it!!!!

Yeah!!!

Good night.

Guru
03-30-2008, 03:08 AM
hell I'd be happy if there was no need for a nursery in the high school

No kidding. IT is sad that it is necessary now. I can only hope that my children will pick up on the values that my wife and I shared when we were kids. I keep hoping there will be a moral shift in our society at some point.

Baby Lee
03-30-2008, 08:35 AM
I find it interesting that Larry responded to those harassing him by being strong-willed and with a sense of humor... by flirting with those who ridiculed him.

Unfortunately, it seems that sort of don't-take-any-crap attitude got him killed. Although, I couldn't quite tell if in this case, he was expressing a sincere crush when he was killed.

Would you find it as interesting if he was a homely straight guy who the girls made fun of and he responded by hitting on and propositioning them all the more?

Adept Havelock
03-30-2008, 10:41 AM
Would you find it as interesting if he was a homely straight guy who the girls made fun of and he responded by hitting on and propositioning them all the more?

:hmmm:

That depends. Do the girls kill him for it, and does it ever move past flirtation?

DenverChief
03-30-2008, 02:23 PM
All I have to say is that some of you are Victim Blaming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming). Your arguments are pathetic you are saying that if it would have been a fat kid he should should have lost some weight or the nerd should have "cooled out" and the woman shouldn't have dressed so "sexy", how anyone in this day and age could fix their mouth (or fingers) to say such a thing is beyond me. Children need to be taught respect not only for their parents but for everyone, regardless of who they are they will respect them, regardless of religious belief ""Do unto others as you would have them do to you". Luke 6:31 "

eazyb81
03-30-2008, 02:28 PM
"He didn't like people insulting him," said his friend Miriam Lopez, 13. "Larry was brave enough to bring high heels and makeup to school and he wasn't afraid of anything."



"If girls are wearing jewelry, you can't stop boys from wearing it, too," he said. "Each gender has the right to wear what the other does."



I'm sorry, but these quotes are ridiculous. If you want to cross-dress at home, fine, but don't act shocked when you do it in public and teenage boys make fun of you.

I have no problem with gay people, and am close friends with a few. But being so flamboyant about it and flirting with guys you know are straight is just asking for trouble.

DenverChief
03-30-2008, 02:30 PM
I'm sorry, but these quotes are ridiculous. If you want to cross-dress at home, fine, but don't act shocked when you do it in public and teenage boys make fun of you.

I have no problem with gay people, and am close friends with a few. But being so flamboyant about it and flirting with guys you know are straight is just asking for trouble.
[/INDENT]

blame the victim

eazyb81
03-30-2008, 02:34 PM
blame the victim

The victim certainly brought on some unneeded attention in this case. A person needs to have common sense.

DenverChief
03-30-2008, 02:42 PM
The victim certainly brought on some unneeded attention in this case. A person needs to have common sense.


You know that is a defense used by to men to rape women right?

eazyb81
03-30-2008, 02:45 PM
You know that is a defense used by to men to rape women right?

Really? You're going there? Are you just in an argumentative mood today or was this kid your son?

stevieray
03-30-2008, 02:51 PM
the victim committed sexual harassment, and unfortunately the kid took the law into his own hands...again, adult actions from children..and isn't it easy to see why? violent video games and music desensitizing pulling the trigger..half the kids being raised by their moms, and so many woman on tv and screen brandishing guns, saving the day?..and even worse..portraying them as the shooters? the givers of life playing the takers of life?

...and in the end, two more families devastated....:(

Adept Havelock
03-30-2008, 03:00 PM
the victim committed sexual harassment, and unfortunately the kid took the law into his own hands...again, adult actions from children..and isn't it easy to see why? violent video games and music desensitizing pulling the trigger..half the kids being raised by their moms, and so many woman on tv and screen brandishing guns, saving the day?..and even worse..portraying them as the shooters? the givers of life playing the takers of life?

...and in the end, two more families devastated....:(

Sarah Connor is teh debbil... :p

Rain Man
03-30-2008, 03:03 PM
Geez, I got picked on in junior high, and I was as manly as they come. I can't imagine the abuse one would take as a semi-cross dresser, and having the name "Larry King" to boot.

Obviously, there's no justification for committing murder here. I struggle a little bit with the self-expression that may be a little over the top for junior high school, but obviously there's no reason to commit murder. It's hard to believe that he didn't expect to get beat up, though, in the well-known Darwinian jungle that is junior high school.

What are dress codes like now, anyway? In my day, the principals could send you home for "distracting" things like offensive t-shirts or low-cut blouses or other things that drew attention away from learning and school. While I have no problem with self-expression, I don't think I would object to a principal telling a kid, "You want to wear makeup and high heels at home, fine. But if you do it here, it means that I'm going to have to spend my time mediating conflicts, and I don't want to do that."

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 03:08 PM
What are dress codes like now, anyway? In my day, the principals could send you home for "distracting" things like offensive t-shirts or low-cut blouses or other things that drew attention away from learning and school.

I really think schools need to start implementing strict dress codes. I mean straight up Catholic uniforms (without the crosses).

stevieray
03-30-2008, 03:08 PM
Sarah Connor is teh debbil... :p

that's actually a great example...

Rain Man
03-30-2008, 03:12 PM
I really think schools need to start implementing strict dress codes. I mean straight up Catholic uniforms (without the crosses).

I actually wouldn't have a huge problem with that. When I was a teenager, it seemed like the Catholic schools were weird for doing this, but I can see some advantages to it. As one person explained years later, it minimizes cliques and also puts everyone on an equal playing field so that the rich kids aren't advantaged over the poor kids in perceptions.

Brock
03-30-2008, 03:14 PM
blame the victim

Wake up and live in the real world

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 03:18 PM
I actually wouldn't have a huge problem with that. When I was a teenager, it seemed like the Catholic schools were weird for doing this, but I can see some advantages to it. As one person explained years later, it minimizes cliques and also puts everyone on an equal playing field so that the rich kids aren't advantaged over the poor kids in perceptions.

As my dad explained so poignantly if we ever complained, "I have to wear a uniform too [shirt and tie], so quit bitching about it."

Rain Man
03-30-2008, 03:20 PM
As my dad explained so poignantly if we ever complained, "I have to wear a uniform too [shirt and tie], so quit bitching about it."

Ah. You did school uniforms? For how many years? I would think it'd be easier if you did it all the way from K through 12.

In your opinion, was it a bad thing or a good thing?

I guess one advantage we had when not using school uniforms was that it was easier to identify the stoners and the thugs, because in my day they were the ones who wore t-shirts with unbuttoned flannel shirts over them.

BigMeatballDave
03-30-2008, 03:20 PM
The victim certainly brought on some unneeded attention in this case. A person needs to have common sense.I agree. He didn't deserve to die, but he's not too bright. A teenage boy dressing like a chick and flirting with other boys. You're asking for a beatdown. That said, I hope the killer is tried as an adult. If he's convicted he should be placed in general population...

Adept Havelock
03-30-2008, 03:26 PM
that's actually a great example...
Heh. A woman willing to lay her life on the line and go to outrageous extremes to protect her childs life, because his father was killed. Yeah, that's just a horrible thing. :p

I suppose Joan of Arc is teh debbil too. Damn uppity strong women taking a leadership role... :Poke:

Guru
03-30-2008, 03:27 PM
All I have to say is that some of you are Victim Blaming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming). Your arguments are pathetic you are saying that if it would have been a fat kid he should should have lost some weight or the nerd should have "cooled out" and the woman shouldn't have dressed so "sexy", how anyone in this day and age could fix their mouth (or fingers) to say such a thing is beyond me. Children need to be taught respect not only for their parents but for everyone, regardless of who they are they will respect them, regardless of religious belief ""Do unto others as you would have them do to you". Luke 6:31 "

:clap::clap:

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 03:31 PM
Ah. You did school uniforms? For how many years? I would think it'd be easier if you did it all the way from K through 12.

In your opinion, was it a bad thing or a good thing?

Yes, I wore school uniforms from preschool to second grade and from sixth grade til I graduated. (When I moved to South Dakota in my 3rd-5th grade years, the Catholic school didn't have a uniform policy)

In my opinion, it was a very good thing. The Catholic school was smaller than your average high school, so everyone knew everyone else. So, the uniforms did not really curb social status or cliques.

When you were wearing a uniform, it meant that this is school, where we come as a community to grow up and learn. This is not home, and this is not some park where we act like a bunch of idiots. We dress up nice (clean, solid, polo shirt, khakis, dress shoes, belt) because of a disciplined and structured education.

We had to have a belt, we had to tuck our shirt in, we had to shave. If we didn't shave, we had to go downstairs to the principal's office and shave with the school razor. Couldn't have tattoos, and if you did, you had to cover them up. When it was cold, you had to have a school sweater, not like your coat, or you just had to go without.

Hydrae
03-30-2008, 03:32 PM
129 replies and noone has commented on why the shooter had a gun IN THE SCHOOL!

Have we gotten that used to these things happening that we gloss over the fact that this kid had a loaded gun in the school? This didn't happen down the street after school, it happened in a class room!

stevieray
03-30-2008, 03:32 PM
Heh. A woman willing to lay her life on the line and go to outrageous extremes to protect her childs life, because his father was killed. Yeah, that's just a horrible thing.

I suppose Joan of Arc is teh debbil too. Damn strong women. :p

I thought you were referring to the new show, not the movie.

Braincase
03-30-2008, 03:35 PM
Really? You're going there? Are you just in an argumentative mood today or was this kid your son?

Sometimes the ignorance screams so loud it's laughable.

Adept Havelock
03-30-2008, 03:35 PM
I thought you were referring to the new show, not the movie.

What's the difference? Both versions of the character fit that description. :shrug:

They are both single parents of a child with a dead father, willing to go to extreme lengths to defend the childs life. Is the new version somehow more of a threat to the family because she didn't team-up with the Governator, but instead allied with a female terma-teen? LMAO

Ever watch a Mama cat defending its kittens? It's a behavior to be praised, not condemned, IMO.

I guess Joan of Arc should have just "graciously submitted" to the English yoke as well. ;)




I'm all for self-expression, but I'm beginning to think Uniforms might be a decent idea.

Guru
03-30-2008, 03:41 PM
Yes, I wore school uniforms from preschool to second grade and from sixth grade til I graduated. (When I moved to South Dakota in my 3rd-5th grade years, the Catholic school didn't have a uniform policy)

In my opinion, it was a very good thing. The Catholic school was smaller than your average high school, so everyone knew everyone else. So, the uniforms did not really curb social status or cliques.

When you were wearing a uniform, it meant that this is school, where we come as a community to grow up and learn. This is not home, and this is not some park where we act like a bunch of idiots. We dress up nice (clean, solid, polo shirt, khakis, dress shoes, belt) because of a disciplined and structured education.

We had to have a belt, we had to tuck our shirt in, we had to shave. If we didn't shave, we had to go downstairs to the principal's office and shave with the school razor. Couldn't have tattoos, and if you did, you had to cover them up. When it was cold, you had to have a school sweater, not like your coat, or you just had to go without.

I love my kids having uniforms. No coat though. Or am I reading that wrong?

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 03:44 PM
I love my kids having uniforms. No coat though. Or am I reading that wrong?

We didn't wear a sports coat. We were a step below that level of nicely dressed.

Or, if you meant a jacket for when it's cold, we couldn't wear that either. We had to wear the school sweatshirts/sweaters. A lot of kids would complain about not being able to wear a coat in class when it was cold, but thankfully, the teachers never bended.

stevieray
03-30-2008, 03:44 PM
What's the difference? Both versions of the character fit that description. :shrug:

They are both single parents of a child with a dead father, willing to go to extreme lengths to defend the childs life. Is the new version somehow more of a threat to the family because she didn't team-up with the Governator, but instead allied with a female terma-teen? LMAO

Ever watch a Mama cat defending it's kittens? It's a behavior to be praised, not condemned IMO.

I guess Joan of Arc should have just "graciously submitted" to the English yoke as well. ;)

please stop wasting our time using an example of a woman acting out of self defense, as that is a given in any circumstance...fathers and males are absent, replaced by women doing the killing.

Adept Havelock
03-30-2008, 03:47 PM
please stop wasting our time using an example of a woman acting out of self defense, as that is a given in any circumstance...fathers and males are absent, replaced by women doing the killing.

:hmmm:

Sarah Connor is teh debbil... :p

that's actually a great example...

Wow. It went from a "great example" in your view, to a "waste of time" in only 14 posts. Nice job. :clap:LMAO

I'll happily withdraw from the thread, so there is no hijack or wasting of someone's time.

POND_OF_RED
03-30-2008, 03:51 PM
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/v3S24ofEQj4&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/v3S24ofEQj4&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Guru
03-30-2008, 03:55 PM
We didn't wear a sports coat. We were a step below that level of nicely dressed.

Or, if you meant a jacket for when it's cold, we couldn't wear that either. We had to wear the school sweatshirts/sweaters. A lot of kids would complain about not being able to wear a coat in class when it was cold, but thankfully, the teachers never bended.

So they expected you to wear a sweater outside in the winter? No coat?
Our only requirement on coats is no team coats and they have to be in great condition. Not tattered torn or dirty.

Guess my next question is, where did you live?

BigMeatballDave
03-30-2008, 03:57 PM
And why wasn't it going to end well?:spock:

Rain Man
03-30-2008, 03:57 PM
Video

What the heck? Is that real, or is it some kind of spoof?

stevieray
03-30-2008, 04:00 PM
:hmmm:





Wow. It went from a "great example" in your view, to a "waste of time" in only 14 posts. Nice job. :clap:LMAO

I'll happily withdraw from the thread, so there is no hijack or wasting of someone's time.

self defense in the first movie and teamwork in the second to eliminating the character that the movie was named after.

Jenson71
03-30-2008, 04:05 PM
So they expected you to wear a sweater outside in the winter? No coat?
Our only requirement on coats is no team coats and they have to be in great condition. Not tattered torn or dirty.

Guess my next question is, where did you live?

Oh, we could wear any kind of coat when we were outside.

I live/d in NE Iowa.

POND_OF_RED
03-30-2008, 04:07 PM
What the heck? Is that real, or is it some kind of spoof?

It's real. It was on a list of top 10 most disturbing PSA videos. http://www.cracked.com/article_16051_10-most-disturbing-psas-from-around-world.html

Rain Man
03-30-2008, 04:08 PM
It's real. It was on a list of top 10 most disturbing PSA videos. http://www.cracked.com/article_16051_10-most-disturbing-psas-from-around-world.html

Interesting. I had no idea that homosexuality was contagious.

Cntrygal
03-30-2008, 04:10 PM
I believe Jensen was saying that they couldn't wear coats in class.... it had to be the sweater or "suck it up".

markk
03-30-2008, 05:01 PM
To me this is two kids bullying each other. both were in the wrong one more than the other of course.

DenverChief
03-30-2008, 05:08 PM
Lets see by some of your arguments here the following are true:

Nicole Brown- Simpson deserved what she got for "stepping out"
Ron Goldman deserved what he got for dating "that bitch"

I mean in the "real world" you don't leave your husband and you sure as hell don't date someone's ex

and to top it all off

IT WAS ALL AMERICAS FAULT

9/11 was a result of our piss poor foreign policy had those people on the planes and in the towers pushed their government more to be nicer to to other countries they wouldn't have died...it was all their fault

you people are unbelievable

If the shoe fits....

thurman merman
03-30-2008, 05:09 PM
They killed the wrong Larry King


ROFL

Braincase
03-30-2008, 05:13 PM
Interesting. I had no idea that homosexuality was contagious.

I caught a case of heterosexuality from a Catholic girl in high school.

Baby Lee
03-30-2008, 06:35 PM
Lets see by some of your arguments here the following are true:

Nicole Brown- Simpson deserved what she got for "stepping out"
Ron Goldman deserved what he got for dating "that bitch"

I mean in the "real world" you don't leave your husband and you sure as hell don't date someone's ex

and to top it all off

IT WAS ALL AMERICAS FAULT

9/11 was a result of our piss poor foreign policy had those people on the planes and in the towers pushed their government more to be nicer to to other countries they wouldn't have died...it was all their fault

you people are unbelievable

If the shoe fits....

Can you honestly not see the difference between 'he was courting danger' and 'he deserved what he got?' All the difference in the world.

Bootlegged
03-30-2008, 06:54 PM
new gay Martyr. WheeEE!!

Rain Man
03-30-2008, 07:05 PM
I caught a case of heterosexuality from a Catholic girl in high school.

Ah, yes. The boob-onic plague.

Baby Lee
03-30-2008, 07:07 PM
Ah, yes. The boob-onic plague.

Funny, I caught poon-onia.

stevieray
03-30-2008, 07:12 PM
Funny, I caught poon-onia.

The Spanish Inquititsion?

Baby Lee
03-30-2008, 07:13 PM
The Spanish Inquititsion?

I spent hours in a vagitative state.

stevieray
03-30-2008, 07:16 PM
I spent hours in a vagitative state.

on the rack, no doubt...

Rain Man
03-30-2008, 07:16 PM
I spent hours in a vagitative state.

And the tough part is that you never develop immunity.

mcan
03-30-2008, 07:25 PM
Who didn't know someone in school that went out of their way every day to show everyone exactly how unique they were...how different....and then act indignant when they actually get some of the attention they were seeking in the first place?



Quite seriously, I hope I'm misreading your point here... Something must be lost in traslation... It seems like you're implying that a dead kid is now acting indignant because he got exactly what he wanted (shot in cold blood).

Or perhaps, you mean that the only reason he dressed like a woman in the first place was to piss off everybody else. Like he desperately wanted to eventually be a martyr for his "I ought to be able to dress however I want" cause?

CoMoChief
03-30-2008, 07:51 PM
The message here is really simple,

Don't be gay around other straight guys, and you won't have any problems.

mcan
03-30-2008, 08:07 PM
Fact: Kid was murdered by another kid.

Problem: How do we prevent it in the future.
------------------------------------------------------


Solutions
1. Restrict everything in society. No guns at all. Must have a license to have a kid and have monthly inspections by a social worker. Kids go to school 8 hours a day every day and must all dress exactly the same regardless of gender. All will be searched coming into the building. Protect chidlren from adult issues at all costs. Must log onto the internet with a social security number, and censor all forms of media.

or

2. Consider "moral philosophy" and "logic" academic subjects and require them to be studied from grade 3 on up. No longer will it be completely up to parents and religion to teach kids dogmatic views on what is right and wrong. Obviously, certain issues are too complex for a third grader. We don't want to make a little girl cry by asking her if it's ok to flip the switch and kill her grandmother (who is standing on the train tracks) in order to save the bus full of children (who is on the other set of tracks). We can save those for kids who are a couple years older. But, there are certain moral issues that are definately ok for a kid to be thinking about. Tolerance and non-violence are some of them.


But I don't think junior high is too young to be teaching about sexual issues and identity. I'd say 6th grade is a pretty good age (about 12 years old).

Brock
03-30-2008, 08:09 PM
2. Consider "moral philosophy" and "logic" academic subjects and require them to be studied from grade 3 on up. No longer will it be completely up to parents and religion to teach kids dogmatic views on what is right and wrong.


State indoctination training. How original. Pol Pot did that too.

Bootlegged
03-30-2008, 08:21 PM
Fact: Kid was murdered by another kid.

Problem: How do we prevent it in the future.
------------------------------------------------------


Solutions
1. Restrict everything in society. No guns at all. Must have a license to have a kid and have monthly inspections by a social worker. Kids go to school 8 hours a day every day and must all dress exactly the same regardless of gender. All will be searched coming into the building. Protect chidlren from adult issues at all costs. Must log onto the internet with a social security number, and censor all forms of media.

or

2. Consider "moral philosophy" and "logic" academic subjects and require them to be studied from grade 3 on up. No longer will it be completely up to parents and religion to teach kids dogmatic views on what is right and wrong. Obviously, certain issues are too complex for a third grader. We don't want to make a little girl cry by asking her if it's ok to flip the switch and kill her grandmother (who is standing on the train tracks) in order to save the bus full of children (who is on the other set of tracks). We can save those for kids who are a couple years older. But, there are certain moral issues that are definately ok for a kid to be thinking about. Tolerance and non-violence are some of them.


But I don't think junior high is too young to be teaching about sexual issues and identity. I'd say 6th grade is a pretty good age (about 12 years old).


Wow. Looks like the fagification indoctrination worked on you as a student. Now preaching pro-fhapacceptance/promotion. Long live Danny Noriega!!! Whooo!

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.tmz.com/media/2008/03/0327_danny_noriega_drag_idol.jpg

Don't you want your son to CHOOSE to be like Danny?!!! OH YEAH>..

mcan
03-30-2008, 08:28 PM
The message here is really simple,

Don't be gay around other straight guys, and you won't have any problems.

I'm straight, but I was a weird kid. I had no idea how to be "cool" because I didn't have any "cool" friends. I had no idea what I was doing that made everybody think so, but many people accused me of being gay. I got picked on relentlessly up until high school. Around then, people started leaving me alone and I was able to just sit around and be depressed, without too many people bothering me. I got jumped a couple of times by "bullies" and beat up pretty good a few times. Got jumped by three kids for no reason at all one day after getting off the bus on the way home. One of them kneed me in the face several times and I had to have a root canal to fix a dead tooth that turned black because of the dried blood inside it. I was on the football team in junior high, but was a scrawny kid and people thought I was gay, so I got picked on mercilessly by the rest of the team. My own team... One time they convinced a kid (who was kinda slow and eager to please the popular kids) to run up behind me while I was watching a scrimmage and tackle me by diving at my knees. Later they convinced him to start a fight with me. I got kicked in the nuts by players standing in line behind me. One time half the team picked me up and threw me in a dumpster. I was thrown into the hall in my underwear. I was smacked around. Every day was a f*cking nightmare of nerves. I didn't tell anybody for fear that I'd be considered even more of a loser. My parents, teachers. NOBODY. That was my childhood, and I wasn't gay at all. In fact, it wasn't until late in high school that people even told me that they used to think I was gay. I had no idea.


I can only imagine the torment that a kid who is out must go through. If they choose to fight back and keep even a shred of dignity (which I found no way of doing) by flirting with them, then I applaud them. How people choose to deal with being bullied is of no consequence and shouldn't even enter into the topic of how to prevent kids from being killed by other kids.

KCN
03-30-2008, 08:32 PM
Deciding which kid instigated it worse, or saying "this could have been prevented if..." is not the issue here. This is what school counselors deal with every day and is hardly newsworthy.

However I think this case highlights two very important issues. First, too many people think that junior high age is too young to confront homosexuality. As we see here, this is false, because kids this age are already experiencing these feelings and dealing with it. When parents, schools, etc refuse to talk to children of this age about sexual orientation, bad things happen. For some straight kids, they're not taught that being gay is ok and natural, so they are guided by their natural instinct that it's gross and wrong. This of course gets exacerbated by homophobic comments among their peers. Once these ideas get instilled in a person's head at this age, it's going to be very difficult to get them out later in life. Even worse is for the kids developing gay feelings and attractions at this age (which is VERY COMMON). Once again, without anyone teaching them that their feelings are ok and natural, they grow up feeling like a freak, isolated from their peers, and sometimes trying very hard to repress those feelings. This is a very serious problem because it leads to psychological issues down the road, and is a very big reason why drug use, promiscuity, depression and suicide are so high among young gay people. Refusing to acknowledge that sexual feelings, both gay and straight, develop at this age is pure ignorance, and dangerous ignorance at that.

Second, this very much highlights how important it is for kids to be brought up in stable and accepting homes. I very much agree with others that family is very important. It doesn't surprise me at all that these kids came from broken backgrounds. Perhaps if Larry had parents that accepted his sexual orientation and effeminate nature, he wouldn't have felt the need to draw attention to it from his peers by dressing up as a woman. Maybe if he had parents that taught him about respect, he would have realized that while it's important to be who God made you, sometimes you have to compromise and lay low to avoid making others feel uncomfortable. Maybe he would have been ok with this if he was allowed to be himself at home.

And ClevelandBronco....you really seem to get it. Great posts! It's encouraging for our future that we have parents like you raising our children.

mcan
03-30-2008, 08:32 PM
State indoctination training. How original. Pol Pot did that too.



What? Moral philosophers have been around long before Pol Pot and they'll be around for a great while after you and I leave. They tackle important subjects that we should all be thinking about. Pol Pot was a mass murdering fu*kwad. And why are you so scared of kids learning philosophy, or being taught to think about things with logic?

Rausch
03-30-2008, 08:34 PM
OXNARD, Calif. - Larry King was a gay eighth-grader

I can see that...

Brock
03-30-2008, 08:39 PM
What? Moral philosophers have been around long before Pol Pot and they'll be around for a great while after you and I leave. They tackle important subjects that we should all be thinking about. Pol Pot was a mass murdering fu*kwad. And why are you so scared of kids learning philosophy, or being taught to think about things with logic?

Teaching morals/values = religion. It doesn't belong in state schools, and it isn't their place to teach it.

mcan
03-30-2008, 08:41 PM
Wow. Looks like the Rump Rangerification indoctrination worked on you as a student. Now preaching pro-fhapacceptance/promotion. Long live Danny Noriega!!! Whooo!

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.tmz.com/media/2008/03/0327_danny_noriega_drag_idol.jpg

Don't you want your son to CHOOSE to be like Danny?!!! OH YEAH>..


Rumprangerification? Why don't you just call me a F*g-lover. Or a nig*er lover.
Seriously, get out of the stone age fu*ktard.

Congrats, you are the first person that I've ever called a name in my whole life. You sir, are a douchebag. Through and through. And although you don't know me, let me assure you that I wouldn't say it if it weren't true. I used to think that I never insulted anyone because it was rude and because I hated it being done to me so often. Turns out, I was saving it all for you, because I wanted it to mean something when I finally called someone a complete waste of a human being.

Rausch
03-30-2008, 08:43 PM
Teaching morals/values = religion.

I don't know about that.

Being a moral person doesn't mean being a religious person...

mcan
03-30-2008, 08:45 PM
Teaching morals/values = religion. It doesn't belong in state schools, and it isn't their place to teach it.

The difference is that moral philosophy is the practice of using logic to THINK about what may or may not be considered right and wrong. It's useful so that you can determing for yourself what you believe. Religion tells you what to believe because "god says so."

So even if you think that moral philosophy has no place in schools, you have to admit that it is vastly different from religion (which I agree has no place in schools).

Brock
03-30-2008, 08:46 PM
I don't know about that.

Being a moral person doesn't mean being a religious person...

Schoolteachers, acting as a proxy of the state, don't need to be determining or telling anyone what is moral and what isn't.

Brock
03-30-2008, 08:47 PM
The difference is that moral philosophy is the practice of using logic to THINK about what may or may not be considered right and wrong. It's useful so that you can determing for yourself what you believe. Religion tells you what to believe because "god says so."

So even if you think that moral philosophy has no place in schools, you have to admit that it is vastly different from religion (which I agree has no place in schools).

I don't agree that it's vastly different from religion. You're just swapping one god for another.

Bootlegged
03-30-2008, 08:48 PM
Rumprangerification? Why don't you just call me a F*g-lover. Or a nig*er lover.
Seriously, get out of the stone age fu*ktard.

Congrats, you are the first person that I've ever called a name in my whole life. You sir, are a douchebag. Through and through. And although you don't know me, let me assure you that I wouldn't say it if it weren't true. I used to think that I never insulted anyone because it was rude and because I hated it being done to me so often. Turns out, I was saving it all for you, because I wanted it to mean something when I finally called someone a complete waste of a human being.


Thanks sweetie.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-30-2008, 08:55 PM
Can you honestly not see the difference between 'he was courting danger' and 'he deserved what he got?' All the difference in the world.

Can you not see the problems with a society where it is tacitly accepted that it's dangerous to be different and therefore acting different is seen as an explanation for murder?

All this thread appears to me is a bunch of guys arguing over the merits of closeting. So f*cking what if he wants to wear "women's" clothes and high heels? That's his choice. Why should we tolerate behavior that chastizes and endangers others when they aren't being violent themselves?

The fact that he 'was courting danger' simply for his dress is prep*sterous. Why is that acceptable?

--Signed,

A f*ggot negro jew bastard.

Bootlegged
03-30-2008, 08:58 PM
Can you not see the problems with a society where it is tacitly accepted that it's dangerous to be different and therefore acting different is seen as an explanation for murder?

All this thread appears to me is a bunch of guys arguing over the merits of closeting. So f*cking what if he wants to wear "women's" clothes and high heels? That's his choice. Why should we tolerate behavior that chastizes and endangers others when they aren't being violent themselves?

The fact that he 'was courting danger' simply for his dress is prep*sterous. Why is that acceptable?

--Signed,

A f*ggot negro jew bastard.


That pretty much explains you/yours political views. Confimred.

mcan
03-30-2008, 09:19 PM
I don't agree that it's vastly different from religion. You're just swapping one god for another.

??? Logic ???

If you mean that I consider "logic" to be a god, then you have a much more liberal interpretation of the word "god" than I do. I still feel like philosophy and probably even theology probably ought to be taught in public schools. Not as a tool to get kids to think the way the state wants them to think, but as a tool teach the kids about the actual world they live in. EVERY day as they grow old, they will use logic. Every day they will have to make "moral" decisions. They will NEVER have to name all the state capitols in their entire lives.


The only skills they teach in school that you WILL have to know later is how to read, and some basic math. OK, so that takes a few years. What else is there?

Iowanian
03-30-2008, 09:32 PM
Who gets to define these Morals?

vailpass
03-30-2008, 10:07 PM
Thanks sweetie.

ROFL
He's not real good at the whole "tough talk" thing is he? I picture him with a hand on his hip, head swaying back and forth, cussing you out with a lisp.

Brock
03-30-2008, 10:13 PM
Who gets to define these Morals?

Why, logic, of course. The same logic by which many a murder has been justified.

mcan
03-30-2008, 10:17 PM
Who gets to define these Morals?


Moral philosophers and YOU! Anybody who wants to think about it. The point is to actually get people thinking about it.

mcan
03-30-2008, 10:33 PM
Why, logic, of course. The same logic by which many a murder has been justified.


I'm really not sure what you have against logic. You realize that math and reading are derived from logic, right? That every working device you've ever plugged in and used for any purpose was designed using logical principles? How is logic all the sudden a bad guy?


I really thought people would think of this idea as a slam dunk.

CoMoChief
03-30-2008, 10:42 PM
I'm straight, but I was a weird kid. I had no idea how to be "cool" because I didn't have any "cool" friends. I had no idea what I was doing that made everybody think so, but many people accused me of being gay. I got picked on relentlessly up until high school. Around then, people started leaving me alone and I was able to just sit around and be depressed, without too many people bothering me. I got jumped a couple of times by "bullies" and beat up pretty good a few times. Got jumped by three kids for no reason at all one day after getting off the bus on the way home. One of them kneed me in the face several times and I had to have a root canal to fix a dead tooth that turned black because of the dried blood inside it. I was on the football team in junior high, but was a scrawny kid and people thought I was gay, so I got picked on mercilessly by the rest of the team. My own team... One time they convinced a kid (who was kinda slow and eager to please the popular kids) to run up behind me while I was watching a scrimmage and tackle me by diving at my knees. Later they convinced him to start a fight with me. I got kicked in the nuts by players standing in line behind me. One time half the team picked me up and threw me in a dumpster. I was thrown into the hall in my underwear. I was smacked around. Every day was a f*cking nightmare of nerves. I didn't tell anybody for fear that I'd be considered even more of a loser. My parents, teachers. NOBODY. That was my childhood, and I wasn't gay at all. In fact, it wasn't until late in high school that people even told me that they used to think I was gay. I had no idea.


I can only imagine the torment that a kid who is out must go through. If they choose to fight back and keep even a shred of dignity (which I found no way of doing) by flirting with them, then I applaud them. How people choose to deal with being bullied is of no consequence and shouldn't even enter into the topic of how to prevent kids from being killed by other kids.

ROFLROFLROFLROFL YOU ****ING PUSSY!!!!!!

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-30-2008, 10:45 PM
ROFLROFLROFLROFL YOU ****ING PUSSY!!!!!!

Jesus Christ, you are a f*cking douchebag.

Guru
03-30-2008, 10:51 PM
ROFLROFLROFLROFL YOU ****ING PUSSY!!!!!!

You are obviously one of the bullies that picks on the weak.

Rausch
03-30-2008, 10:54 PM
Schoolteachers, acting as a proxy of the state, don't need to be determining or telling anyone what is moral and what isn't.

I'd agree.

But who determined the guidlines your proxy follows?

Rausch
03-30-2008, 11:01 PM
I'm straight, but I was a weird kid. I had no idea how to be "cool" because I didn't have any "cool" friends. I had no idea what I was doing that made everybody think so, but many people accused me of being gay.

I'll stop you there.

Whatever happened did. How you felt about it or decided to act on it was your decision.

You still read here (even if I'm responding to a guy on iggy) so I'm guessing you sucked it up and got tough or got out. Your argument sounds like what the defnese for the murderer is likely to use.

I'm sick and tired of "I got picked on" as the excuse for being a violent offender or a victim...

mcan
03-30-2008, 11:04 PM
ROFLROFLROFLROFL YOU ****ING PUSSY!!!!!!



Yeah I know. I absolutely was. But there wasn't a whole lot I could do about it. I mean, I suppose I could have fought these guys, any one of whom could have kicked my ass. I wouldn't have been fighting just one of them either. No honer among those assholes. I suppose I could have gone to a teacher or something, but I just would have gotten jumped after school for something like that. Could have maybe joined a gym and learned karate or boxing or something, but oh yeah... My alcoholic, absent, parents weren't really around to drive me to anywhere, and even if they were we didn't have any money or anything. So, I just went to church (by myself) where people seemed to be nice to me, and tried to keep my head down at school.

Rausch
03-30-2008, 11:06 PM
ROFLROFLROFLROFL YOU ****ING PUSSY!!!!!!

You sound like a big and confident alpha male.

You **** enough guys from the topside in the lavatory to make up for your own insecurities, or are you still pumping iron and waiting for the chance?...

cdcox
03-30-2008, 11:12 PM
I'l
I'm sick and tired of "I got picked on" as the excuse for being a violent offender or a victim...

But it is okay for the bullies to be violent?

There is very little societal controls against bullying. The people who do it are generally cowards in that they do it under circumstances where they think there are no consequences: no authority to punish them, and in a situation where they have overwelming force.

Being bullied is not an excuse to return violence. Whoever does that should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. However, if someone bullies and gets more than they bargained for, I have zero sympathy. You push someone into a corner and you better be ready to deal with the unpredictable consequences.

CoMoChief
03-30-2008, 11:18 PM
You sound like a big and confident alpha male.

You **** enough guys from the topside in the lavatory to make up for your own insecurities, or are you still pumping iron and waiting for the chance?...

No, I didn't pick on people, nor did I get picked on. I just don't feel sorry for the ones that do and bitch about it. DO something about it. If you get beaten all to hell, at least you stood up for yourself and a lot of times that person will stop picking on you.

mcan
03-30-2008, 11:18 PM
I'll stop you there.

Whatever happened did. How you felt about it or decided to act on it was your decision.

You still read here (even if I'm responding to a guy on iggy) so I'm guessing you sucked it up and got tough or got out. Your argument sounds like what the defnese for the murderer is likely to use.

I'm sick and tired of "I got picked on" as the excuse for being a violent offender or a victim...



I'm not sure I was trying to do what you're accusing me. I was responding to the posts that talked about how gay kids could avoid being rediculed and picked on (or shot) if they just didn't advertise how gay they were. I told my story, not to present myself as a victim or an authority, but to illustrate how intensely difficult things can be even if you aren't advertising anything. And frankly, I don't feel like gay kids should have to pretend they aren't. But if I caught this much sh!t and I wasn't even gay, I can only imagine how hard it is on sombody who is.

"I got picked on" is NOT an excuse for violence, I agree.

That said, it's not an 'excuse' for being a victim either, it's the definition. You are a victim of being picked on.

Rausch
03-30-2008, 11:25 PM
Being bullied is not an excuse to return violence.

Exactly, end there.

People build careers, lives, and sometimes even political parties or nations from getting beat up.

They grow from it and move up.

Rausch
03-30-2008, 11:26 PM
No, I didn't pick on people, nor did I get picked on. I just don't feel sorry for the ones that do and bitch about it. DO something about it. If you get beaten all to hell, at least you stood up for yourself and a lot of times that person will stop picking on you.

Well, have the stones to say it then.

Don't sit there and just laugh at someone with a problem. That guy sounds like a $#it-tosser in my book...

mcan
03-30-2008, 11:37 PM
No, I didn't pick on people, nor did I get picked on. I just don't feel sorry for the ones that do and bitch about it. DO something about it. If you get beaten all to hell, at least you stood up for yourself and a lot of times that person will stop picking on you.



No deal. I was in fights all the time. Almost always it was a crowd of people against me. And even if they all weren't "fighting" they were there encouraging their buddy to kick my ass and ready to step in should they need to. Also, I was scared sh!tless most of the time, and was told over and over by my church to do what Jesus would have done... Yeah, I was that kid. So, to me it was noble to put my guard up and let them do their thing until they were done. It was also, I fully admit, a way for me to justify being afraid of fighting. In the exact dictionary definition of the word, I was a pussy. I'm kinda proud of the fact that I was non-violent, but no doubt I equally regret not standing up for myself any more than I did.

But cdcox is right on. Of the dozens of times that something violent happened to me, only once did somebody happen by and interviene. That was when the football team convinced a guy named James to fight me. A coach who was a block away saw the crowd of people cheering him on and telling how cool he would be if he kicked my ass and came running. I think that was one of those life changing moments for James though. When we got caught, I was somewhat bloodied. At that point, one of the guys in the crowd grew a conscience and told the coach that I didn't do anything and never threw a punch. James obviously felt terrible and was apologizing to me as we were being dragged back to the school and to the principal's office. All the other times, I was on my own, usually against a crowd of three or more.

Mr. Kotter
03-30-2008, 11:40 PM
Schools are the last absolute last place I want them teaching my kids anything other than academics. that's part of the damn problem, too many parents expecting the schools to raise their children for them...we are a volatile nation that has been pimping violent and agressive music, tv and movies for fifteen years..violence hit the schools and what did we do? got rid of men teachers, corporal punishment and then had the audacity to institute a zero tolerance policy, basically telling your kid one mistake and you're branded...dumb down boys with drugs... another stupid label...it doesn't surprise me that a kid exposed to adult issues with out enough life experience ended up resorting to a very adult consequence...there are no winners in this case...at all.


THAT says all that needs to be said about this tragedy; the rest is partisan and ideological posturing bullshit....with a capital B and a capital S.

:BS:

mcan
03-30-2008, 11:41 PM
Well, have the stones to say it then.

Don't sit there and just laugh at someone with a problem. That guy sounds like a $#it-tosser in my book...


Being called a pussy doesn't bother me. Especially, when he is calling me a pussy 15 years after the fact. I assure you if I was 80% pussy back then, it's down to a respectable 10% now. It does bother me a bit that you have me on ignore though. Am I so bad that my opinion is completely devoid of anything worthy of being heard?

Rausch
03-30-2008, 11:47 PM
THAT says all that needs to be said about this tragedy; the rest is partisan and ideological posturing bullshit....with a capital B and a capital S.

:BS:

The first rule of No Child Left Behind is you are NOT allowed to talk about No Child Left Behind...

http://media.movieweb.com/galleries/884/551/lo/co9.jpg

Mr. Kotter
03-30-2008, 11:56 PM
Can you honestly not see the difference between 'he was courting danger' and 'he deserved what he got?' All the difference in the world.

No, apparently, the stupid bastard can't. :rolleyes:

god
03-30-2008, 11:59 PM
Being called a pussy doesn't bother me. Especially, when he is calling me a pussy 15 years after the fact. I assure you if I was 80% pussy back then, it's down to a respectable 10% now. It does bother me a bit that you have me on ignore though. Am I so bad that my opinion is completely devoid of anything worthy of being heard?


I just thought I'd hop along and quote you in case somebody has you on ignore... Since you were such a good guy back in the day, consider us even.

J Diddy
03-31-2008, 12:05 AM
I didn't know how ****ed up some people were until i clicked this link

Mr. Kotter
03-31-2008, 12:06 AM
But it is okay for the bullies to be violent?

There is very little societal controls against bullying. The people who do it are generally cowards in that they do it under circumstances where they think there are no consequences: no authority to punish them, and in a situation where they have overwelming force.

Being bullied is not an excuse to return violence. Whoever does that should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. However, if someone bullies and gets more than they bargained for, I have zero sympathy. You push someone into a corner and you better be ready to deal with the unpredictable consequences.

Very nice post. :thumb:

J Diddy
03-31-2008, 12:09 AM
Very nice post. :thumb:

says the guy who smacks around students


:)

mcan
03-31-2008, 12:12 AM
No, apparently, the stupid bastard can't. :rolleyes:

The term "courting danger" puts at least some blame for the attack on the victim. Some people assume that whatever part of the responsibility you put on the victim, you take away from the attacker. As if the full weight of the blame is 100 pounds, and you just took 10 pounds away from the guy with the gun and put it on the guy with the bullet. I think that's a limited view.

It's okay to point out that any victim could have done more to prevent their situation. But I recommend saying it in such a way that doesn't imply the above.

You sound like a dickhead if you say "Well the girl shouldn't have gotten so drunk around all those horny guys."

You sound like somebody who cares when you say "This is why it's a bad idea to get wasted around people you can't trust."

blueballs
03-31-2008, 12:21 AM
So he's gay in the middle
where else would he be

Rausch
03-31-2008, 12:29 AM
Am I so bad that my opinion is completely devoid of anything worthy of being heard?

At some point I must have felt that way, yeah...

Rausch
03-31-2008, 12:31 AM
I didn't know how ****ed up some people were until i clicked this link

Sounds like the thrilling start to a horrible 00 horror flick...

Baby Lee
03-31-2008, 05:46 AM
Can you not see the problems with a society where it is tacitly accepted that it's dangerous to be different and therefore acting different is seen as an explanation for murder?

All this thread appears to me is a bunch of guys arguing over the merits of closeting. So f*cking what if he wants to wear "women's" clothes and high heels? That's his choice. Why should we tolerate behavior that chastizes and endangers others when they aren't being violent themselves?

The fact that he 'was courting danger' simply for his dress is prep*sterous. Why is that acceptable?

--Signed,

A f*ggot negro jew bastard.
Is that high horse easier to mount when you frame things in terms of what he wore instead of him hitting on and flirting with people it was already clear did not welcome his advances?

DenverChief
03-31-2008, 06:12 AM
NEG REP! Gay middle school... 03-30-2008 10:55 PM Mr. Kotter I thought you had matured...and gotten brighter....I was wrong.


LMAO okie dokie smokie.... I have a MASTERS EDUCATION in the subject, take your bachelors in history and go teach what you are good at m'kay? let the adults who are KNOWLEDGEABLE on the subject speak

DenverChief
03-31-2008, 06:15 AM
Can you honestly not see the difference between 'he was courting danger' and 'he deserved what he got?' All the difference in the world.


if you carefully read some of the posts I am referring to you will see the argument that he "got what was coming to him for dressing/acting like he did" I am merely pointing out how silly that argument is...and if you really wanted to expand it Simpson/Goldman were "courting danger" and so was America

DenverChief
03-31-2008, 06:17 AM
Very nice post. :thumb:

and yeah I meant it to be positive

Braincase
03-31-2008, 06:51 AM
Any word yet on whether the Phelps clan is heading for Oxnard?

Mr. Kotter
03-31-2008, 09:27 AM
Is that high horse easier to mount when you frame things in terms of what he wore instead of him hitting on and flirting with people it was already clear did not welcome his advances?


SSSSSsssss---hhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!


:cuss:



You were NOT suppose to notice that part..... :shake:

Brock
03-31-2008, 09:30 AM
I'm really not sure what you have against logic. You realize that math and reading are derived from logic, right? That every working device you've ever plugged in and used for any purpose was designed using logical principles? How is logic all the sudden a bad guy?


I really thought people would think of this idea as a slam dunk.

Computers are built around logic. Are computers moral?

Mr. Kotter
03-31-2008, 09:47 AM
NEG REP! Gay middle school... 03-30-2008 10:55 PM Mr. Kotter I thought you had matured...and gotten brighter....I was wrong.


LMAO okie dokie smokie.... I have a MASTERS EDUCATION in the subject, take your bachelors in history and go teach what you are good at m'kay? let the adults who are KNOWLEDGEABLE on the subject speak

Let me guess.....Colorado Tech or is it from Pheonix or Devry "University?" Or some other mail order diploma mill??? FWIW, my BA was in Poli Sci.

I'll up the ante with two MAs in relevant subjects....since you wanna get silly now.....heh. :rolleyes:

Adept Havelock
03-31-2008, 11:02 AM
Let me guess.....Colorado Tech or is it from Pheonix or Devry "University?" Or some other mail order diploma mill??? FWIW, my BA was in Poli Sci.

I'll up the ante with two MAs in relevant subjects....since you wanna get silly now.....heh. :rolleyes:

Oh Yeah! An "I have more letters after my name" pissing match!

It's always fun to watch these live, but one on a forum ought to be funny too. :p

Mr. Kotter
03-31-2008, 11:49 AM
Oh Yeah! An "I have more letters after my name" pissing match!

It's always fun to watch these live, but one on a forum ought to be funny too. :p



I know....hence the :rolleyes:

Funny how a piece of paper from a diploma mill gives one a sense that their shitty opinions are somehow less shitty.

HolmeZz
03-31-2008, 11:53 AM
the victim committed sexual harassment, and unfortunately the kid took the law into his own hands...

He wasn't enforcing a friggin' law. He picked the fight. Stop trying to marginalize the role of the killer. It's beyond disgusting.

and so many woman on tv and screen brandishing guns, saving the day?..

Only men are allowed to do that!

and even worse..portraying them as the shooters?

Because only in Bizarro World has a woman ever used a gun.

Am I to assume you want to ban female cops and support a repealing of 2nd Amendment Rights for women?

the givers of life playing the takers of life?

Women kill, as unrealistic as that may seem to you.

But then again you think race is no longer an issue in this country and that abortion leads to more fathers.

Save your retarded social rantings for occasions that actually call for them.

Bowser
03-31-2008, 11:55 AM
I know....hence the :rolleyes:

Funny how a piece of paper from a diploma mill gives one a sense that their shitty opinions are somehow less shitty.

I have no college degree, yet I'm reasonably convinced that I'm smarter than ALL of you dumbshits.



:D

Lzen
03-31-2008, 12:07 PM
How about this: I blame religion. All of'em. They teach that it's ok to hate someone for being different than you(say, homosexual).

A completely ignorant statement.

HolmeZz
03-31-2008, 12:12 PM
A completely ignorant statement.

How could you have read that whole post and not grasped what I meant? I was making an ignorant unrelated argument to show why stevie's argument was unrelated and ignorant.

crazycoffey
03-31-2008, 12:21 PM
Let me guess.....Colorado Tech or is it from Pheonix or Devry "University?" Or some other mail order diploma mill??? FWIW, my BA was in Poli Sci.

I'll up the ante with two MAs in relevant subjects....since you wanna get silly now.....heh. :rolleyes:


Hey, I got a diploma from University of Pheonix, and I had five hours of in class time a week for two and a half years. Then I still went to a community college to pick up the rest of my electives for over another year of night school;

It was hardly a diploma mill, let alone a mail order diploma mill. I took one english class online, and that was from the community college......

Chiefnj2
03-31-2008, 12:27 PM
I'm thinking that Brandon is going to get a much bigger dose of sexual teasing in the pokey/juvy hall the next 10 years of his life. He better bring more bullets.

Brock
03-31-2008, 12:28 PM
"U" of P, LOL

crazycoffey
03-31-2008, 12:45 PM
"U" of P, LOL

:(

ouchie, you are always so mean to me, picking on me

:crybaby:

that's it, where's my gun......

:bang:

that'll teach you for saying mean things to people!

Donger
03-31-2008, 12:47 PM
So, basically, this kid was sexually harassing his classmates?

Chiefnj2
03-31-2008, 01:00 PM
So, basically, this kid was sexually harassing his classmates?

No, sexual harassment was his form of self defense. Apparently though it's about as usefull as karate in stopping a bullet to the back of the head. If he were allowed to carry a firearm into computer lab this whole thing might have been avoided.

Donger
03-31-2008, 01:03 PM
No, sexual harassment was his form of self defense. Apparently though it's about as usefull as karate in stopping a bullet to the back of the head. If he were allowed to carry a firearm into computer lab this whole thing might have been avoided.

Was he sexually harassing them or not?

Lzen
03-31-2008, 01:06 PM
How could you have read that whole post and not grasped what I meant? I was making an ignorant unrelated argument to show why stevie's argument was unrelated and ignorant.

So you admit it was an ignorant statement? :thumb:









....Should have included the smiley....

Chiefnj2
03-31-2008, 01:07 PM
Was he sexually harassing them or not?

It sounds like he was sexually harassed first.

Mr. Kotter
03-31-2008, 01:20 PM
It sounds like he was sexually harassed first.

I'd put that down as a "yes," Donger.

Donger
03-31-2008, 01:21 PM
It sounds like he was sexually harassed first.

Indeed, it sounds as if that was the case. So, you agree that he also committed sexual harassment?

Easy 6
03-31-2008, 01:27 PM
This an incredible tragedy, all the way around...1 young man is dead & another might as well be, where he's going.

I do have a problem with the victims parents allowing him to attend school in makeup & femine accessories...while its great that his parents accepted him as is & at home he should be able to dress as he pleased...it was VERY stupid to let him go to school like that.

Obviously, thats no excuse for murder...but it WAS very stupid.

Chiefnj2
03-31-2008, 01:46 PM
Indeed, it sounds as if that was the case. So, you agree that he also committed sexual harassment?

Is flirting sexual harassment? Was Kotter's comment to you about putting it down as a "yes" sexual harassmant? Is it an unwanted advance, designed to stroke your ego so that you are open to his future comments and lascivious praise?

Donger
03-31-2008, 01:51 PM
Is flirting sexual harassment? Was Kotter's comment to you about putting it down as a "yes" sexual harassmant? Is it an unwanted advance, designed to stroke your ego so that you are open to his future comments and lascivious praise?

I believe that unwanted flirtation is one of the legal definitions of sexual harassment, yes.

I fail to see how Kotter's comment could be construed as such, or why it is relevant.

Chiefnj2
03-31-2008, 01:53 PM
I believe that unwanted flirtation is one of the legal definitions of sexual harassment, yes.

I fail to see how Kotter's comment could be construed as such, or why it is relevant.

So, you admit that Kotter was flirting and sexually harassing you.

Donger
03-31-2008, 01:55 PM
So, you admit that Kotter was flirting and sexually harassing you.

As I said, I don't see how his comment could be construed as such.

BIG_DADDY
03-31-2008, 02:16 PM
236 posts? LMAO You guys are more obsessed with gay shit than they are out here in SF.

crazycoffey
03-31-2008, 03:01 PM
236 posts? LMAO You guys are more obsessed with gay shit than they I am about pitbulls.


FYP

vailpass
03-31-2008, 03:04 PM
236 posts? LMAO You guys are more obsessed with gay shit than they are out here in SF.

ROFL I laugh and yet I admit I'm caught up in some of the gay shit as well...

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-31-2008, 05:14 PM
Is that high horse easier to mount when you frame things in terms of what he wore instead of him hitting on and flirting with people it was already clear did not welcome his advances?

Was he doing this before or after he was castigated for being himself? And is this the best defense that you can muster for your vapid stance?

"Oh noes, he acts like he's better than me because he doesn't bash or deride the choices of a non-normative person, therefore I'll try and marginalize him as an elitist prick."

Yeah, he obviously deserved what he got.

Donger
03-31-2008, 05:57 PM
Was he doing this before or after he was castigated for being himself? And is this the best defense that you can muster for your vapid stance?

"Oh noes, he acts like he's better than me because he doesn't bash or deride the choices of a non-normative person, therefore I'll try and marginalize him as an elitist prick."

Yeah, he obviously deserved what he got.

"Non-normative"?

BIG_DADDY
03-31-2008, 06:17 PM
ROFL I laugh and yet I admit I'm caught up in some of the gay shit as well...

It's like there are tons of innocent vicitms every day in this country but for some reason here at the planet the pirates are the only ones (other than kids) that get the outrage. Just an observation.

Baby Lee
03-31-2008, 06:45 PM
Was he doing this before or after he was castigated for being himself? And is this the best defense that you can muster for your vapid stance?

"Oh noes, he acts like he's better than me because he doesn't bash or deride the choices of a non-normative person, therefore I'll try and marginalize him as an elitist prick."

Yeah, he obviously deserved what he got.

Jesus effing Christ, the lack of reading comprehension.
I've never said he deserved what he got, and it's insulting for you to suggest that I would.

The interesting aspect I am pointing out goes to the distinct sense that some of those non-normative choices you won't bash him for you would bash a normative individual for making analogous choices.
I never once said anything about his clothing, or makeup. This was about him making unwanted sexual and romantic advances that he knew to be unwanted and likely to be met with hostility.
And I submit that if a nerdy/homely straight kid was using the same tactic on girls who were treating him mean, you'd have an altogether different response than herein. Heck though, I guess I'll be a human and not assume that you'd applaud his slaying at those girls hands as his just desserts.

mcan
03-31-2008, 07:17 PM
Yes, under the letter of the law, you could say that he was sexually harrassing the kids that were bullying him.

But, I find that pretty inconsequential considering the fact that these kids rediculed him, tortured him, and then shot him in the head.



Also, I'd like to point out that sexual harrassment laws are not designed to keep you from being flirted with. They are designed to keep you from feeling threatened or objectified. The only way flirting can be sexual harrassment is if you repeatedly tell someone to stop and to leave you alone and they don't. But you can't expect to be left alone if you keep running up to your 'harrasser' and giving them sh!t. I don't think that qualifies.

mcan
03-31-2008, 10:01 PM
Jesus effing Christ, the lack of reading comprehension.
I've never said he deserved what he got, and it's insulting for you to suggest that I would.

The interesting aspect I am pointing out goes to the distinct sense that some of those non-normative choices you won't bash him for you would bash a normative individual for making analogous choices.
I never once said anything about his clothing, or makeup. This was about him making unwanted sexual and romantic advances that he knew to be unwanted and likely to be met with hostility.
And I submit that if a nerdy/homely straight kid was using the same tactic on girls who were treating him mean, you'd have an altogether different response than herein. Heck though, I guess I'll be a human and not assume that you'd applaud his slaying at those girls hands as his just desserts.



Well said.


I think it's interesting to note the polarizing effect that tragedy has on people. Obviously, nobody is GLAD the kid is dead, or thinks he got what he deserved. The question now is:

How far away from "normal" does someone need to be before someone should step in and try to get them to conform? Either for their own safety, or for the betterment of the culture... Obviously, we don't like people who have sex with umbrellas. We would probably step in if a guy liked to rub feces on himself at the grocery store. We would all probably stop our buddy from dressing up like a Klan member and walking around in Watts, even if it was a joke, for his own sake. Once I was at a Mexican resteraunt with some buddies and there were kids at the booth next to me. Needless to say, their Dad was a little upset at our rather course language and put us in our place. (and rightfully so). I have a right to talk like that all I want, but there is a certain amount of tact that I have to have if I want to live in society, and I apologized and watched my mouth around his kids from there on.

JohnnyV13
03-31-2008, 11:41 PM
God, what a nerve this story has touched. Grade school bullying, homo/transsexuality, religion and the role of government in education all rolled into one.

I, too, experienced a lot of bullying in school. I was a half asian kid in a lily white private school. My sister and I were the first half anythings in my school. On top of that, I was the smallest kid in school from 1st to 9th grade, I had buck teeth that stuck out of my mouth, wore thick glasses and grew up in an affluent neighborhood raised by parents who both came up from abject poverty.

I got in fights all the time. I was openly taunted for being a "chink" despite looking completely caucasian (my anscestry was known because my sister looked asian when she was young). I started Judo in an era when very few took martial arts and ended up winning the vast majority of my fights. (I was pretty smart about selecting the right time to "lose my temper"). I found out later that classmates started egging on new kids to get in fights with me, then tease them for losing to me, which then made them go after me again. Despite winning all those fights, I still thought of myself as a loser.

The bullying ended in 9th grade. New school, same old story. I weighed about 96lbs and some guy that went around 150 decided I was an amusing target. I tolerated his abuse for about a month, until he shoves his books in my face in the hall. I pushed them away, and because I had the temerity to resist, he punched me in the mouth and walked into a classroom. I heard someone ask me, "Are you going to take that?" And I was like, F*ck No!. In the classroom, the guy gives me a sh*t eating grin from his desk. I punched him as hard as I could, grabbed his shirt and slammed him against a window before it got broken up.

Viola! Instant respect. That guy took so much crap for getting beat down by me, that he transferred less than a week later.

I grew up in a catholic school system where kids didn't even carry knives, much less guns. Most of us had unbroken homes and affluent parents. I have NO idea what I would have done in today's school system. Given my violent temper, god...I don't even want to think about it.

This gay/transsexal kid probably took a lot of crap, decided to wear earrings and heels as a big "F U!" to everyone else. That's like waving a cape in front of the bulls. Then, he humiliates the bully by painting him with the same "gay" brush by flirting with him. Frankly, I can understand where the bullied kid was coming from.

The "manly" response is to fight back and the bully will back off. Having experience in this area, that macho response can get you beat to hell if the bullied kid isn't smart and doesn't pick his spot intelligently.

I, however, would like to hear someone tell me how to handle this situation in a non-violent way that fails to humiliate the bully. Experience tells me that "going to teacher" or "walking away" simply eggs on the attacker. Taking the abuse long-term has massive self-esteem consequences for the bullied kid that last even into adulthood. ONe of the problems of the bullying situation, is that usually, the bully isn't a high status person himself. So when the bullied kid fights back or disses them, the bully can be desperate to reassert his marginally higher position.

THose of you who never dealt with recurrent bullying, God, you have no idea what its like. You grow up EXPECTING people to immediately dislike you. You start trying to tell people reasons why you aren't worthless right when you meet them. Then you wonder why everyone thinks you're a loser.

Conventional wisdom holds that if you behave correctly, anyone can solve this problem. Reality is, sometimes you are in a no-win situation and you just have to endure it. Note that the "conventional wisdom" shifts the blame back to the bullied kid, and infers that he deserves the abuse because he can't stop it. Middle school is a TERRIBLE time to be going through this abuse, b/c just then you're becoming aware of sex.

For those of you who don't understand, think back to your earliest experiences with girls; the fear of rejection mixed with hope, and the social pressure not to fail. Then imagine the feelings of the kid who has been beat down every day for years. Both the fear and longing are magnified 10 fold. Much of your self-identity is set during these years and further "adjustments" are added to the foundation built during one's "critical period" (an animal behavior concept that I DEFINITELY believe applies in human sexual imprinting).

Even today, I am surprised, on an intuitive level, when a pretty woman finds me attractive; despite years of experience that should tell me otherwise. For those of you who want the bullied kid to use "coping" strategies, I want to ask you if accepting the long term consequences are worth the safety?

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-31-2008, 11:58 PM
Jesus effing Christ, the lack of reading comprehension.
I've never said he deserved what he got, and it's insulting for you to suggest that I would.

The interesting aspect I am pointing out goes to the distinct sense that some of those non-normative choices you won't bash him for you would bash a normative individual for making analogous choices.
I never once said anything about his clothing, or makeup. This was about him making unwanted sexual and romantic advances that he knew to be unwanted and likely to be met with hostility.
And I submit that if a nerdy/homely straight kid was using the same tactic on girls who were treating him mean, you'd have an altogether different response than herein. Heck though, I guess I'll be a human and not assume that you'd applaud his slaying at those girls hands as his just desserts.

Here's the incredibly obvious distinction that you would just as soon gloss over:

The victim in question was not marginalizing others, nor was he abusing people for their sexual preference, choice of haircut, clothing, shoes, etc. What he was doing was illustrating, quite clearly, where their biases stemmed from.

He was being discriminated against because of his orientation. The nerdy/homely kid would not be discriminated against for his orientation, and if those girls killed him, it wasn't going to be because he was straight, and I damn sure doubt that the multitude of kids that picked on this person were in danger of being physically overwhelmed/or overtaken by him.

He's basically a social Joseph Merrick who put himself in front of his tormentors and said "this is why you hate me." He pointed out his social "boils", and their uneasiness with those perceived flaws is what lead to his death.

By saying that he was "courting danger" you are quite obviously alluding that he was not an innocent bystander in his own death. Whether it was adroitness, or an awareness of your own fear of showing your true callousness, you just chose to frame it in a manner that would cover your own ass through some interesting semantic gymnastics.

Baby Lee
04-01-2008, 05:51 AM
Here's the incredibly obvious distinction that you would just as soon gloss over:

The victim in question was not marginalizing others, nor was he abusing people for their sexual preference, choice of haircut, clothing, shoes, etc. What he was doing was illustrating, quite clearly, where their biases stemmed from.

He was being discriminated against because of his orientation. The nerdy/homely kid would not be discriminated against for his orientation, and if those girls killed him, it wasn't going to be because he was straight, and I damn sure doubt that the multitude of kids that picked on this person were in danger of being physically overwhelmed/or overtaken by him.

He's basically a social Joseph Merrick who put himself in front of his tormentors and said "this is why you hate me." He pointed out his social "boils", and their uneasiness with those perceived flaws is what lead to his death.

By saying that he was "courting danger" you are quite obviously alluding that he was not an innocent bystander in his own death. Whether it was adroitness, or an awareness of your own fear of showing your true callousness, you just chose to frame it in a manner that would cover your own ass through some interesting semantic gymnastics.

Speaking of semantic gymnastics, that sounds A LOT like the notion I was seeking to quell from the outset, ie;

'sexual harassment can be a brave altruistic act, if the sexually harassed deserve it for their normative biases.'

Bullshit.

BIG_DADDY
04-01-2008, 11:28 AM
God, what a nerve this story has touched. Grade school bullying, homo/transsexuality, religion and the role of government in education all rolled into one.

I, too, experienced a lot of bullying in school. I was a half asian kid in a lily white private school. My sister and I were the first half anythings in my school. On top of that, I was the smallest kid in school from 1st to 9th grade, I had buck teeth that stuck out of my mouth, wore thick glasses and grew up in an affluent neighborhood raised by parents who both came up from abject poverty.

I got in fights all the time. I was openly taunted for being a "chink" despite looking completely caucasian (my anscestry was known because my sister looked asian when she was young). I started Judo in an era when very few took martial arts and ended up winning the vast majority of my fights. (I was pretty smart about selecting the right time to "lose my temper"). I found out later that classmates started egging on new kids to get in fights with me, then tease them for losing to me, which then made them go after me again. Despite winning all those fights, I still thought of myself as a loser.

The bullying ended in 9th grade. New school, same old story. I weighed about 96lbs and some guy that went around 150 decided I was an amusing target. I tolerated his abuse for about a month, until he shoves his books in my face in the hall. I pushed them away, and because I had the temerity to resist, he punched me in the mouth and walked into a classroom. I heard someone ask me, "Are you going to take that?" And I was like, F*ck No!. In the classroom, the guy gives me a sh*t eating grin from his desk. I punched him as hard as I could, grabbed his shirt and slammed him against a window before it got broken up.

Viola! Instant respect. That guy took so much crap for getting beat down by me, that he transferred less than a week later.

I grew up in a catholic school system where kids didn't even carry knives, much less guns. Most of us had unbroken homes and affluent parents. I have NO idea what I would have done in today's school system. Given my violent temper, god...I don't even want to think about it.

This gay/transsexal kid probably took a lot of crap, decided to wear earrings and heels as a big "F U!" to everyone else. That's like waving a cape in front of the bulls. Then, he humiliates the bully by painting him with the same "gay" brush by flirting with him. Frankly, I can understand where the bullied kid was coming from.

The "manly" response is to fight back and the bully will back off. Having experience in this area, that macho response can get you beat to hell if the bullied kid isn't smart and doesn't pick his spot intelligently.

I, however, would like to hear someone tell me how to handle this situation in a non-violent way that fails to humiliate the bully. Experience tells me that "going to teacher" or "walking away" simply eggs on the attacker. Taking the abuse long-term has massive self-esteem consequences for the bullied kid that last even into adulthood. ONe of the problems of the bullying situation, is that usually, the bully isn't a high status person himself. So when the bullied kid fights back or disses them, the bully can be desperate to reassert his marginally higher position.

THose of you who never dealt with recurrent bullying, God, you have no idea what its like. You grow up EXPECTING people to immediately dislike you. You start trying to tell people reasons why you aren't worthless right when you meet them. Then you wonder why everyone thinks you're a loser.

Conventional wisdom holds that if you behave correctly, anyone can solve this problem. Reality is, sometimes you are in a no-win situation and you just have to endure it. Note that the "conventional wisdom" shifts the blame back to the bullied kid, and infers that he deserves the abuse because he can't stop it. Middle school is a TERRIBLE time to be going through this abuse, b/c just then you're becoming aware of sex.

For those of you who don't understand, think back to your earliest experiences with girls; the fear of rejection mixed with hope, and the social pressure not to fail. Then imagine the feelings of the kid who has been beat down every day for years. Both the fear and longing are magnified 10 fold. Much of your self-identity is set during these years and further "adjustments" are added to the foundation built during one's "critical period" (an animal behavior concept that I DEFINITELY believe applies in human sexual imprinting).

Even today, I am surprised, on an intuitive level, when a pretty woman finds me attractive; despite years of experience that should tell me otherwise. For those of you who want the bullied kid to use "coping" strategies, I want to ask you if accepting the long term consequences are worth the safety?

Wow. Who was your instructor in Judo?