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Jenson71
04-01-2008, 12:14 PM
Simple anonymous poll.

HolmeZz
04-01-2008, 12:18 PM
I was going to say sometimes, but I don't know what that falls under.

Reaper16
04-01-2008, 12:19 PM
The majority of the time, yes. I love my country.

HolmeZz
04-01-2008, 12:24 PM
I was going to say sometimes, but I don't know what that falls under.

I'll go with Usually because most of the foundation on which the country was built outweighs the disgrace our elected officials might bring upon it.

Iowanian
04-01-2008, 12:25 PM
I'm always proud to be an American, but I'm sometimes disappointed in other Americans.

Bowser
04-01-2008, 01:05 PM
At least I know I'm free.

JohninGpt
04-01-2008, 01:20 PM
I've served my country all of my adult life, so yes, always.

StcChief
04-01-2008, 01:38 PM
Always.

Baby Lee
04-01-2008, 02:05 PM
At least I know I'm free.

I'll gladly stand up, next to you.

Mr. Kotter
04-01-2008, 02:12 PM
I'm always proud to be an American.

Sometimes though, I'm embarrassed and I pity other Americans for their actions.

Chief Henry
04-01-2008, 02:27 PM
Always...But like Kotter, I shake my head at some of the stupidity and ignorance
I see in this country.

raybec 4
04-01-2008, 02:44 PM
Always, that doesn't mean I always agree with policies or action of the government but I am still always proud to be an American.

Adept Havelock
04-01-2008, 02:56 PM
Always, that doesn't mean I always agree with policies or action of the government but I am still always proud to be an American.

I'll agree.

There may be ijits in the Government and nutters on the Left and Right who make me cringe, but they are a small part of "America".

mikey23545
04-01-2008, 03:43 PM
There is no way this poll should have been anonymous. It would have been very revealing otherwise.....

Duck Dog
04-01-2008, 03:46 PM
I'm always proud of America and I'm always proud to be American but am ashamed of many of it's people.

penchief
04-01-2008, 04:36 PM
Absolutely. I'm always proud to be an American.

That said, I'm sometimes embarrassed and disgusted by the way some of our leaders betray what this country is supposed to stand for. The Bush presidency is one huge black eye for our reputation. We may never be able to fully wash the stench out of our hair.

Rain Man
04-01-2008, 06:45 PM
In general, I'm always proud, though I said "usually" since occasionally we do things that I think are wrong and/or embarrassing.

Having said that, my pride is a bit hypocritical since I didn't really do much to help win WWII or go to the moon or invent the light bulb or create democracy.

Thig Lyfe
04-01-2008, 07:16 PM
Having said that, my pride is a bit hypocritical since I didn't really do much to help win WWII or go to the moon or invent the light bulb or create democracy.

This is kinda what I was going to say. Happy to be an American? Lucky to be an American? Sure as shit. But proud? I dunno... it's not like I won some massive ultra-competitive pre-birth tournament of skill and smarts to earn the right to be born here.

And I think sometimes we as a nation spend too much time patting ourselves on the back and yapping about how proud we are and not enough time, you know, voting and stuff.

Pride cometh before a fall, and our pride has been comething for a long time now.

Rain Man
04-01-2008, 07:24 PM
This is kinda what I was going to say. Happy to be an American? Lucky to be an American? Sure as shit. But proud? I dunno... it's not like I won some massive ultra-competitive pre-birth tournament of skill and smarts to earn the right to be born here.

And I think sometimes we as a nation spend too much time patting ourselves on the back and yapping about how proud we are and not enough time, you know, voting and stuff.

Pride cometh before a fall, and our pride has been comething for a long time now.

Yeah, I've always kind of wondered about nationalistic chest-thumping. Like you said, nationality is really more of an accident of birth. I guess we all support American success by putting on work shoes and not starting warlord gangs, but when rubber hits the road, the role of most of us in America's success is just keeping our heads down and not making waves. Not much to get giddy about.

StcChief
04-01-2008, 07:29 PM
Absolutely. I'm always proud to be an American.

That said, I'm sometimes embarrassed and disgusted by the way some of our leaders betray what this country is supposed to stand for. The Bush presidency is one huge black eye for our reputation. We may never be able to fully wash the stench out of our hair.right......
when they are 9/11ed let them figure out what to do.

Rain Man
04-01-2008, 07:32 PM
Absolutely. I'm always proud to be an American.

That said, I'm sometimes embarrassed and disgusted by the way some of our leaders betray what this country is supposed to stand for. The Bush presidency is one huge black eye for our reputation. We may never be able to fully wash the stench out of our hair.

Slightly off topic, but Alaska's state motto is, "America's Pompadour".

SCTrojan
04-01-2008, 07:55 PM
Yes - always. Sometimes less than others, but it's always there.

Hydrae
04-01-2008, 08:01 PM
This is why some of the comments by Obama's pastor bothered me. I am always proud to be an American even while bitching about the leadership. At no point would I say "God damn America." I might say "God damn X" with X being a leader or a stupid law but no matter how much I complain about things I also realize that we still live in the greatest country on the planet. It could be better though which is why I complain about things at times. Not showing a lack of pride but a hope for improvement.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-01-2008, 08:34 PM
I'm neither proud nor am I ashamed to be American. It's just a matter of happenstance and geography that I was born in the United States. I'm definitely glad that I live in the US as opposed to Botswana, but there's nothing about being American that makes me feel I'm instrinsically any better than anyone else.

Logical
04-01-2008, 08:51 PM
Usually,

I am ashamed of our occupation of Iraq
I was ashamed we did not realize we weren't wanted in Vietnam
I am ashamed of the racism (not just against blacks) in this country
I am ashamed of how morally backwards we are socially

Other than that I am completely proud to be American


By the way there are only two other countries I might consider better to live in Australia and New Zealand but I would have to actually live there for at least 6 months to judge

a1na2
04-01-2008, 08:55 PM
Usually,

I am ashamed of our occupation of Iraq
I was ashamed we did not realize we weren't wanted in Vietnam
I am ashamed of the racism (not just against blacks) in this country
I am ashamed of how morally backwards we are socially

Other than that I am completely proud to be American

Sounds like your usually is actually defined by your statements as seldom.

Logical
04-01-2008, 09:05 PM
This is kinda what I was going to say. Happy to be an American? Lucky to be an American? Sure as shit. But proud? I dunno... it's not like I won some massive ultra-competitive pre-birth tournament of skill and smarts to earn the right to be born here.

And I think sometimes we as a nation spend too much time patting ourselves on the back and yapping about how proud we are and not enough time, you know, voting and stuff.

Pride cometh before a fall, and our pride has been comething for a long time now. Really nice post, rep

Logical
04-01-2008, 09:09 PM
Sounds like your usually is actually defined by your statements as seldom.I suppose it is perspective. The list of what I am ashamed of is short, the list of what I am proud of or in support of is very long and it starts with our outstanding Bill of Rights (that list alone is longer)

Braincase
04-01-2008, 09:37 PM
I'm proud to be an American all of the time, but I am, on occasion, ashamed of what the government does in my name.

Deberg_1990
04-01-2008, 09:48 PM
If your not proud to be an American, your always free to move to another country.

Logical
04-01-2008, 10:44 PM
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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Oq0t7ZUwzGA&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"></object>

Logical
04-01-2008, 10:53 PM
It is because I still tear up every time I watch that video that I am so angry over the loss of life for the occupation of Iraq. I suppose some of you won't follow that logic, and to those who don't I am sorry.

keg in kc
04-01-2008, 11:03 PM
This is kinda what I was going to say. Happy to be an American? Lucky to be an American? Sure as shit. But proud? I dunno... it's not like I won some massive ultra-competitive pre-birth tournament of skill and smarts to earn the right to be born here.

And I think sometimes we as a nation spend too much time patting ourselves on the back and yapping about how proud we are and not enough time, you know, voting and stuff.

Pride cometh before a fall, and our pride has been comething for a long time now.I agree completely with that.

We're incredibly arrogant as a nation at times, and we sometimes treat the rest of the world like it doesn't exist, or like it doesn't matter.

(America is not unique in this, of course).

Much like with race and religion, I hope that some day the human race can escape the bounds of nationalism, and that we can find a way to live as a world, but at the same time, do so without giving up too much of our individuality and independence.

And, regardless of how much pride I feel or don't feel, the fact is that I do feel a great deal of gratitude that I was born here, because there are still many, many worse places in the world to be.

Logical
04-01-2008, 11:19 PM
I agree completely with that.

We're incredibly arrogant as a nation at times, and we sometimes treat the rest of the world like it doesn't exist, or like it doesn't matter.

(America is not unique in this, of course).

Much like with race and religion, I hope that some day the human race can escape the bounds of nationalism, and that we can find a way to live as a world, but at the same time, do so without giving up too much of our individuality and independence.

And, regardless of how much pride I feel or don't feel, the fact is that I do feel a great deal of gratitude that I was born here, because there are still many, many worse places in the world to be.
OMG KEG is a neocon

I kid, I kid

keg in kc
04-01-2008, 11:23 PM
I probably am in some ways. And I'm a damn commie pinko in other ways.

irishjayhawk
04-01-2008, 11:48 PM
This is kinda what I was going to say. Happy to be an American? Lucky to be an American? Sure as shit. But proud? I dunno... it's not like I won some massive ultra-competitive pre-birth tournament of skill and smarts to earn the right to be born here.

And I think sometimes we as a nation spend too much time patting ourselves on the back and yapping about how proud we are and not enough time, you know, voting and stuff.

Pride cometh before a fall, and our pride has been comething for a long time now.

I'm neither proud nor am I ashamed to be American. It's just a matter of happenstance and geography that I was born in the United States. I'm definitely glad that I live in the US as opposed to Botswana, but there's nothing about being American that makes me feel I'm instrinsically any better than anyone else.

Both sum up my view.

Logical
04-02-2008, 02:04 AM
Here is what a Supreme and Loving God would be about, the support offered. This God would not care what religion you are, only that he can comfort you at such a moment.

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ClevelandBronco
04-02-2008, 02:21 AM
Ask my wife. She wasn't born or raised here.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 06:22 AM
I suppose it is perspective. The list of what I am ashamed of is short, the list of what I am proud of or in support of is very long and it starts with our outstanding Bill of Rights (that list alone is longer)


What perspective do you expect from readers when you lead with the negatives? Presumption might be that the list is longer.

memyselfI
04-02-2008, 06:39 AM
Yes and no.

Yes, I'm proud of being part of a great country that is beautiful in land and people...most of them.

No, I'm not proud when it come to that BS patriotic nationalism that has come to signify 'proud to be an American' or the government of which that same BS seeks to apologize for and collude with.

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 07:57 AM
Ask my wife. She wasn't born or raised here.

You didn't go in for one of those mail-order brides, say from Russia, did ya'?

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 08:05 AM
I disagree that it was the soldier that gave us freedom of speech. The American War for Independence ended in 1783. The Constitutional Convention was 1787. The Bill of Rights weren't introduced until the First United States Congress in 1791 as constitutional amendments which were promised in order to win enough states to ratify it.

It's everyone's duty to be alert to erosion of any liberties which can come from domestic enemies too.

Deberg_1990
04-02-2008, 08:12 AM
No, I'm not proud when it come to that BS patriotic nationalism that has come to signify 'proud to be an American' or the government of which that same BS seeks to apologize for and collude with.

Like i mentioned before, your free to move to North Korea, China, Saudi, or Rwanda if you want. Ill even buy you a plane ticket.

StcChief
04-02-2008, 09:05 AM
Like i mentioned before, your free to move to North Korea, China, Saudi, or Rwanda if you want. Ill even buy you a plane ticket.several on here that can go with you.

or just cruise to Canada,Mexico

Duck Dog
04-02-2008, 09:22 AM
I disagree that it was the soldier that gave us freedom of speech. The American War for Independence ended in 1783. The Constitutional Convention was 1787. The Bill of Rights weren't introduced until the First United States Congress in 1791 as constitutional amendments which were promised in order to win enough states to ratify it.

It's everyone's duty to be alert to erosion of any liberties which can come from domestic enemies too.

Soldiers protect you from more than just being able to say stupid shit on public BB's. It was soldiers who fought for that Independence.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 09:26 AM
Like i mentioned before, your free to move to North Korea, China, Saudi, or Rwanda if you want. Ill even buy you a plane ticket.

And this would be the reason why. People who are so drenched in the nationalism that it blinds them sometimes.

Duck Dog
04-02-2008, 09:51 AM
And this would be the reason why. People who are so drenched in the nationalism that it blinds them sometimes.

Or those who are so drenched in anti-nationalism that they stop at nothing to criticize the nation that gave them the opportunity to live freely.

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 09:58 AM
And this would be the reason why. People who are so drenched in the nationalism that it blinds them sometimes.

And maybe it’s because he’s been to places like those named and seen how those people live, how they’re governed, what legal enforcement there is, what public services their citizen’s take for granted or don’t have at all. :shrug:

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 10:00 AM
I'm neither proud nor am I ashamed to be American. It's just a matter of happenstance and geography that I was born in the United States. I'm definitely glad that I live in the US as opposed to Botswana, but there's nothing about being American that makes me feel I'm instrinsically any better than anyone else.

Ok, but my question to you would then be: why does pride = belittling others or having to feel superior to them? Is this typically how you derive pride?

Rain Man
04-02-2008, 10:07 AM
Like i mentioned before, your free to move to North Korea, China, Saudi, or Rwanda if you want. Ill even buy you a plane ticket.

I'd like to visit the Great Wall. If I say something anti-American, will you buy my ticket?

Oh, wait. This isn't round trip, is it? Would you perhaps pay for half of a round-trip ticket?

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 10:09 AM
I'd like to visit the Great Wall.

Just don’t try to bring a chunk of it home. They get pretty pissy about that.

Mr. Laz
04-02-2008, 10:09 AM
usually ...... let's face it, sometimes we screw stuff up.


but i wouldn't want to live anywhere else


w00t w00t Go America PBJ PBJ

Rain Man
04-02-2008, 10:31 AM
Just don’t try to bring a chunk of it home. They get pretty pissy about that.

I can see that. You don't want to have to downgrade it at some point to just a Pretty Good Wall.

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 11:06 AM
We're still free?

Iowanian
04-02-2008, 11:07 AM
So, Irishjayhawk....a poster that goes by the name "HAMAS" and an outspoken supporter of many anti American groups in Dense, aren't proud to be Americans.


Nice company you're keeping.

Mr. Kotter
04-02-2008, 11:30 AM
We're still free?

Everything is relative isn't it? So, yes we are.

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 11:31 AM
Soldiers protect you from more than just being able to say stupid shit on public BB's. It was soldiers who fought for that Independence.

Soldiers? Too broad a classification imo. Were the soldiers of the Soviet Union, Napoleon, Japan, Rome and Xerxes protecting their people's independence?

Now a regarding our soldiers that fought for our independence:
Wasn't the army in our War for Independence made up of many common people called militias? Yes, they fought for "independence!" But there were certain leaders that made the call to action in the colonies first.
I read only 2% of the people really knew what was going on with a few more watching.

It's what a people do afterwards to maintain that independence after you got it that counts for the duration though. That takes more than soldiers.

I think soldiers protect our nation from attacks and therefore our lives first. Afterall, that precedes any liberty. No soldier gives me the right to say stupid things on a BB.

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 11:33 AM
Everything is relative isn't it? So, yes we are.

Even if it is relative, we've lost a lot of freedom...and long before 9/11 too.
I think Hong Kong is freer than us today.

StcChief
04-02-2008, 11:33 AM
usually ...... let's face it, sometimes we screw stuff up.


but i wouldn't want to live anywhere else


w00t w00t Go America PBJ PBJLet's see ...

the most charitable country in the world, our Farmers feed the world

First to appear on the scene with aid at any major diaster (see T-land Tsunami)

it's tough being a screw up country. :rolleyes:

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 11:35 AM
it's tough being a screw up country. :rolleyes:

Country or government?

ChiefaRoo
04-02-2008, 11:37 AM
I'll gladly stand up, next to you.

... and will shoot frankie's crazy relatives straight away....

Saggysack
04-02-2008, 11:39 AM
only when it is profitable...

Rain Man
04-02-2008, 11:42 AM
Even if it is relative, we've lost a lot of freedom...and long before 9/11 too.
I think Hong Kong is freer than us today.


Hong Kong? I might disagree with you on that one.

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 11:54 AM
Hong Kong? I might disagree with you on that one.

Years ago I read they had more economic freedom than we had in the US and generated their wealth without natural resources too. I just haven't kept up with what China may have done, but I seem to hear they're conquering China more than the other way around.

JohninGpt
04-02-2008, 11:54 AM
Even if it is relative, we've lost a lot of freedom...and long before 9/11 too.
I think Hong Kong is freer than us today.

I'm having a hard time thinking of anything that I can't do now that I could do 10 years ago, with the possible exception of showing up at the last second to jump on a plane.
Just exactly how have you been enslaved?

Direckshun
04-02-2008, 11:58 AM
I'm neither proud nor am I ashamed to be American. It's just a matter of happenstance and geography that I was born in the United States. I'm definitely glad that I live in the US as opposed to Botswana, but there's nothing about being American that makes me feel I'm instrinsically any better than anyone else.
+1

JohninGpt
04-02-2008, 12:06 PM
Ask my wife. She wasn't born or raised here.

Mine either, and she was naturalized a couple months ago. A very proud moment for both of us.

Duck Dog
04-02-2008, 12:12 PM
Let's see ...

the most charitable country in the world, our Farmers feed the world

First to appear on the scene with aid at any major diaster (see T-land Tsunami)

it's tough being a screw up country. :rolleyes:

Well, actually our farmers don't feed the world, unfortunately. The WTO won't allow the US to ship it's crops overseas because our crops are genetically engineered. Even to starving nations.

StcChief
04-02-2008, 12:15 PM
Well, actually our farmers don't feed the world, unfortunately. The WTO won't allow the US to ship it's crops overseas because our crops are genetically engineered. Even to starving nations.
we use to feed the world..... so let the starve or get PC food from europe.

stop helping WTO and other "world organizations" and throw UN outta NYC.

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 12:18 PM
stop helping WTO and other "world organizations" and throw UN outta NYC.

What about Bush's League of Democracies he wants to replace the UN though?

Rain Man
04-02-2008, 12:19 PM
Years ago I read they had more economic freedom than we had in the US and generated their wealth without natural resources too. I just haven't kept up with what China may have done, but I seem to hear they're conquering China more than the other way around.

Yeah, I'm not exactly a Hong Kong expert, so I don't know exactly how things are working over there. My impression is that they have a really long leash and are still pretty capitalistic, but I figure that, since it can all be taken away at any moment, a long leash is a lot different than having no leash and being a free-running American mutt.

Duck Dog
04-02-2008, 12:22 PM
Soldiers? Too broad a classification imo. Were the soldiers of the Soviet Union, Napoleon, Japan, Rome and Xerxes protecting their people's independence?

Now a regarding our soldiers that fought for our independence:
Wasn't the army in our War for Independence made up of many common people called militias? Yes, they fought for "independence!" But there were certain leaders that made the call to action in the colonies first.
I read only 2% of the people really knew what was going on with a few more watching.

It's what a people do afterwards to maintain that independence after you got it that counts for the duration though. That takes more than soldiers.

I think soldiers protect our nation from attacks and therefore our lives first. Afterall, that precedes any liberty. No soldier gives me the right to say stupid things on a BB.

1. We are talking about America, not any other country conveniently plucked from history. I see what your doing though, comparing todays soldier with those that went around conquering (raping and pillaging) other nations. That's real nice of ya.

2. Before the The War of Independence was fought we did not have an Army we had militias. After the start of the war the Continental Army was formed and fought side by side with the militias. They were commanded by General George Washington. That hardly sound like a title given to civilians.

3. It was the soldier that gave you the right to say stupid shit. I didn't say it is the soldier.

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 12:27 PM
+1

Ok, I'll ask you the same question.

Ok, but my question to you would then be: why does pride = belittling others or having to feel superior to them? Is this typically how you derive pride?

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 12:31 PM
1. We are talking about America, not any other country conveniently plucked from history. I see what your doing though, comparing todays soldier with those that went around conquering (raping and pillaging) other nations. That's real nice of ya.
No I'm not. I was was poking at the generality being used with the word "soldier". It depends on what a govt is doing with soldiers if they are keeping us free. It depends on the type of war being fought too. We could just be paying back an insult even.

I wouldn't say the Civil War was about keeping us all free. It could be argued it prevented independence of certain states.
I wouldn't say WWII was either, it was more defense after an attack.
And WWI?---Oh brother!! Wilson wanted his chance to sell his League of Nations.
Or we're liberating another people. Japan thought that. The list goes on.


3. It was the soldier that gave you the right to say stupid shit. I didn't say it is the soldier.

Mind if I disagree? Or will you shoot me with your friendly avy?
I say it was statesmen first, then the militias and soldiers of the Revolution, and the people keeping alert to govt intrusions to maintain it. Briefly, it's everybody's job. Anyone of these roles alone can abuse it.

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 12:36 PM
Oh yeah, DD...but "was" applies to any soldier in the past too.

StcChief
04-02-2008, 12:48 PM
What about Bush's League of Democracies he wants to replace the UN though?nothing wrong with spliting the democracy from non-democracy nations

Duck Dog
04-02-2008, 01:16 PM
Mind if I disagree? Or will you shoot me with your friendly avy?


Don't ya know, barbarian soldiers don't waste our bullets on the weak and fragile. For them we use our boot heals.

Anyway, if you carried a rifle during the Revolutionary War, IMO, you were military, you were a soldier. Without these men who carried rifles we'd still be under British rule. It matters not the Statesmen who possessed these grand ideas of freedom. Without the men that risk their lives to achieve these noblest of goals you and I may not have the freedoms we enjoy today.

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 01:47 PM
Some of those soldiers were also those statesmen.

In the case of the American Revolution the role of those who fought military was right and justified and did lead to independence from Britain. I just don't see that as the case every time a soldier is used is all. Nor is it the case when an imperial power grants independence to a former nation or colony. What happens after, is just as important. Particularly, when most revolutions usually replace a former regime with something more despotic. It was the restraint of George Washington that prevented our revolution from degenerating into another blood shed as the French Revolution did. He was also a general in the Revolution too.So I say both have a role and both can go either way. It depends on all the facts surrounding the event at the time.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 01:57 PM
Even if it is relative, we've lost a lot of freedom...and long before 9/11 too.
I think Hong Kong is freer than us today.

Then, by all means possible you need to go there so you can enjoy that form of freedom - while it lasts.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 02:07 PM
Or those who are so drenched in anti-nationalism that they stop at nothing to criticize the nation that gave them the opportunity to live freely.

I don't criticize everything. But patriotism has lines. I'd much rather people have less patriotism than lots of patriotism. One thing leads to another and you have yourself nationalism, which, as we've seen time and time again, is not good.

I have to say, though, that the "don't criticize America or you're in league with terrorists" PR campaign and the "patriotic conditioning" we subject young people to - as well as older - is top notch. We're good at that.

And maybe it’s because he’s been to places like those named and seen how those people live, how they’re governed, what legal enforcement there is, what public services their citizen’s take for granted or don’t have at all. :shrug:

Or, maybe, he's drawing examples for shock effect. In other words, he's merely pointing out where you can live that wouldn't be as good. This doesn't really say anything though. We could be the best country in the world but still screw shit up which makes it not right to be proud. It's the alpha-male type of response.

It's ethnocentrism, at it's root. And that's what America needs to get over. Can I ask if you and he are both against sweatshop labor? Are you not buying Nike or such brands? We're exploiting other countries. Should I be proud of that?

The bottom line is exactly what Hamas has stated.

So, Irishjayhawk....a poster that goes by the name "HAMAS" and an outspoken supporter of many anti American groups in Dense, aren't proud to be Americans.


Nice company you're keeping.

Thanks for adding to the discussion. It's insightful.

Rain Man
04-02-2008, 02:20 PM
There's a quote that I like that says something like, "Blind nationalism is the value of real estate over principles." I think the U.S. is wonderful and we've got the best thing going, but at the same time I recognize that our country was founded by people who revolted against their government because they had a better idea.

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 02:22 PM
IJH, where else have you ever lived?

“Ethnocentrism”. ROFL

why does pride = belittling others or having to feel superior to them? Is this typically how you derive pride?

A still unanswered question.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 02:28 PM
Ok, but my question to you would then be: why does pride = belittling others or having to feel superior to them? Is this typically how you derive pride?

I'll take a stab at this.

First, I'd look on the side of patriotism. What have we heard the last few years? We've heard "you question, you're in line with terrorists". That's what's been drilled and drilled. Anything and everything as been equated down to an us vs them dichotomy. There is no middle ground where one can be proud but also not proud. It's either nationalism or bust.

Now, I know your question doesn't imply this, but do you think most Americans feel they are superior to other countries or peoples'? I sure get that feeling. And I'm pretty sure that's why our country is looked down upon abroad.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 02:29 PM
IJH, where else have you ever lived?

“Ethnocentrism”. ROFL



A still unanswered question.

I've lived here. But that has nothing to do with people employing ethnocentrism. So I don't understand your point.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 02:37 PM
Now, I know your question doesn't imply this, but do you think most Americans feel they are superior to other countries or peoples'? I sure get that feeling. And I'm pretty sure that's why our country is looked down upon abroad.

Have you ever traveled abroad? Have you ever interacted with the people in other countries?

Your comment is a generality. Yes there are others around the world that look down on the U.S., but there are also as many or more people around that do not look down on America and again as many that feel that America is quite a place and appreciate what America does.

I've been to many countries and have witnessed more acceptance of Americans than rejection. The only places I can say that I've seen any kind of rejection of our presence was in Puerto Rico (a U.S. Posession) and in Mexico. I'm not as much of a world traveler as others but my experiences have been good and the people of other countries tend to treat Americans with open arms.

I'm not crazy about India, the food there isn't good .. at least for me it wasn't, the people I traveled with loved it. Nepal is OK but poor.

Your belief that the world looks down on the U.S is more sensationalist journalism that is reported and less actual people and their views IMO.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 02:39 PM
I've lived here. But that has nothing to do with people employing ethnocentrism. So I don't understand your point.

Without diversity you only have your basis of a view from where you are. You've said that you haven't been anywhere so your view is not only invaled but pretty much moot.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 02:45 PM
Have you ever traveled abroad? Have you ever interacted with the people in other countries?

Yes, I have traveled abroad.

Your comment is a generality. Yes there are others around the world that look down on the U.S., but there are also as many or more people around that do not look down on America and again as many that feel that America is quite a place and appreciate what America does.

Likewise, when you say what you just said, it is a generality. So, obviously, I guess we're both speaking in generalities. But what else can you speak of. It's what polling does - speaks in generalities.

I've been to many countries and have witnessed more acceptance of Americans than rejection. The only places I can say that I've seen any kind of rejection of our presence was in Puerto Rico (a U.S. Posession) and in Mexico. I'm not as much of a world traveler as others but my experiences have been good and the people of other countries tend to treat Americans with open arms.

What exactly do you deem "Acceptance"? I mean they didn't throw things at me, but that's not what I'm saying anyway. They didn't talk bad about Americans, though I didn't understand a lot of the Italian flying around so they could have been. :p

I'm not crazy about India, the food there isn't good .. at least for me it wasn't, the people I traveled with loved it. Nepal is OK but poor.

Ok....


Your belief that the world looks down on the U.S is more sensationalist journalism that is reported and less actual people and their views IMO.

Your belief that the world doesn't look down on the U.S. is more propaganda material that is reported and less actual people and their views.

See, two can play at that game.

Without diversity you only have your basis of a view from where you are. You've said that you haven't been anywhere so your view is not only invaled but pretty much moot.

No, I said I haven't LIVED elsewhere.

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 02:47 PM
I'll take a stab at this.

First, I'd look on the side of patriotism. What have we heard the last few years? We've heard "you question, you're in line with terrorists". That's what's been drilled and drilled. Anything and everything as been equated down to an us vs them dichotomy. There is no middle ground where one can be proud but also not proud. It's either nationalism or bust.

And where exactly have you been hearing this from?

Now, I know your question doesn't imply this, but do you think most Americans feel they are superior to other countries or peoples'? I sure get that feeling.

I can only speak for myself, so no.

And I'm pretty sure that's why our country is looked down upon abroad.

Exactly where are you hearing that we’re looked down upon abroad? Know how many people from pretty much the rest of the world that would gladly trade places with you?

Just FYI, but none of this answered the question.

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 02:49 PM
I've lived here. But that has nothing to do with people employing ethnocentrism. So I don't understand your point.

No point, just trying to get a feel for your perspective on the issue. Since you have none, my question is answered.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 02:53 PM
And where exactly have you been hearing this from?

Are you really going to play dumb with this or perhaps do you have your fingers in your ears?

That's been the Republican mantra for years now. Moreover, the news does a pretty good job of selling it as well. I cannot believe that you are going to argue this kind of sentiment is not out there or even prevailing.



I can only speak for myself, so no.

ROFL

See below.



Exactly where are you hearing that we’re looked down upon abroad? Know how many people from pretty much the rest of the world that would gladly trade places with you?

There it is again. Ethnocentrism. Moreover, the exact attitude that you claim not to see in the two quotes above.

StcChief
04-02-2008, 02:54 PM
ethnocentrism = 'the melting pot that is America' has stopped melting. Let me raise my own country flag where I came from, and continue to act like, talk like I'm still there.

you either wanna be American or just sponge off the country.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 02:54 PM
No point, just trying to get a feel for your perspective on the issue. Since you have none, my question is answered.

So you have to have lived elsewhere to say whether someone is employing ethnocentrism?

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 02:55 PM
ethnocentrism = 'the melting pot that is America' has stopped melting. Let me raise my own country flag where I came from, and continue to act like, talk like I'm still there.

you either wanna be American or just sponge off the country.

What does this even mean? :spock:

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 03:01 PM
Are you really going to play dumb with this or perhaps do you have your fingers in your ears?

You speak in generalizations then try to apply that to everyone disagreeing with you. I’m trying, unsuccessfully, to get you to reply with specifics. You can’t so now you’re onto demagogueing the source.

That's been the Republican mantra for years now. Moreover, the news does a pretty good job of selling it as well. I cannot believe that you are going to argue this kind of sentiment is not out there or even prevailing.

Please quote exactly where I posted that “this sentiment is not out there”, and it’s your, mistaken, assumption as to how prevailing it is.

ROFL

See below.

Below makes as little sense as the rest of your post.

There it is again. Ethnocentrism. Moreover, the exact attitude that you claim not to see in the two quotes above.

See above. Exactly where have I made any claims as to “ethnocentrism” one way or another?

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 03:04 PM
So you have to have lived elsewhere to say whether someone is employing ethnocentrism?

Is this your way of running from this question?

why does pride = belittling others or having to feel superior to them? Is this typically how you derive pride?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnocentrism

Ethnocentrism: characterized by or based on the attitude that one's own group is superior

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 03:11 PM
You speak in generalizations then try to apply that to everyone disagreeing with you. I’m trying, unsuccessfully, to get you to reply with specifics. You can’t so now you’re onto demagogueing the source.

The administration. The main stream media. Pundits. Etc etc.




Please quote exactly where I posted that “this sentiment is not out there”, and it’s your, mistaken, assumption as to how prevailing it is.

You didn't but your question quoted above confirms my initial thoughts on the implications of your stance. You say I speak in generalities. How the hell are you not speaking in generalities when you say that I'm mistaken; thus saying that it's not prevailing?



Below makes as little sense as the rest of your post.



See above. Exactly where have I made any claims as to “ethnocentrism” one way or another?

I made the mistake of including the "Moreover" part on the same line. I'm not referring to ethnocentrism there.

You said: Exactly where are you hearing that we’re looked down upon abroad? Know how many people from pretty much the rest of the world that would gladly trade places with you?

This is the exact thing you have said doesn't exist - a view that America is better than other countries. A view that American "freedom" is better than "whatever they have". That bolded statement highlights it.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 03:14 PM
Is this your way of running from this question?

No, you seem to be gunho on running away from any question I post. Moreover, that was a response to your statement about "getting a feel for your view".

You and patteeu are very good at dancing around things while simultaneously calling others on "dancing" around things. It's similar to the administration's PR campaigns.



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnocentrism

Ethnocentrism: characterized by or based on the attitude that one's own group is superior
Hence, characterized in your statement about "know how many people would trade places with you?".

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 03:24 PM
The administration. The main stream media. Pundits. Etc etc.

Can you use specific examples?

You didn't

You should’ve ended right there.

but your question quoted above confirms my initial thoughts on the implications of your stance.

I’ve yet to post a “stance”. How do you know what the “implications” of it are? Or is this your assumptions treading on logic again?

This is the exact thing you have said doesn't exist - a view that America is better than other countries. A view that American "freedom" is better than "whatever they have". That bolded statement highlights it.

You keep stumbling over this. Where exactly did I say “it doesn’t exist”?
The opinion that what we have going in America is better than what others are left with is true. But that’s not “ethnocentrism”, as I’ve already posted the definition.

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 03:30 PM
No

Are you disagreeing just to disagree? You’ve yet to answer a pretty simple question.

You and patteeu are very good at dancing around things while simultaneously calling others on "dancing" around things. It's similar to the administration's PR campaigns.

Ah, so in other words you can’t defeat either of us with logic so you’ll pull this “I know you are but what am I” wah fest. At lest you’ve matured.

Hence, characterized in your statement about "know how many people would trade places with you?".

:LOL: Did you even read the definition? How is admitting we have a much more favorable situation here in the US than most of the rest of the world claiming superiority over others?

Radar Chief
04-02-2008, 03:31 PM
100.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 04:50 PM
Can you use specific examples?

I'll find some for you when I have time.



You should’ve ended right there.No. I shouldn't have.

I’ve yet to post a “stance”. How do you know what the “implications” of it are? Or is this your assumptions treading on logic again?Okay, so we're at a point where you and patteeu feast. It's "oh x didn't EXPLICITLY say that, so we'll go on assuming that no implications are every to be made. I wonder when it's okay to derive implications out.


You keep stumbling over this. Where exactly did I say “it doesn’t exist”?
The opinion that what we have going in America is better than what others are left with is true. But that’s not “ethnocentrism”, as I’ve already posted the definition.I am not stumbling but apparently you don't ever imply anything with your questions and if they do leave room for implications, well that's just someone assuming which means you can't be held responsible for anything you say.

How do you know what we have is better? Is our health insurance system better than universal health care? Is the gap between the rich and the poor better than other places?

The opinion is far from true, no matter how much you wish it to be.

Are you disagreeing just to disagree? You’ve yet to answer a pretty simple question.

I have answered the question that wasn't directed at me. Problem is you don't like the answer.



Ah, so in other words you can’t defeat either of us with logic so you’ll pull this “I know you are but what am I” wah fest. At lest you’ve matured.Whereas, you've pulled the "I cannot be held for my words" card. Again, calling someone out for something while simultaneously pulling a similar stunt.



:LOL: Did you even read the definition? How is admitting we have a much more favorable situation here in the US than most of the rest of the world claiming superiority over others?Because they want what we have, thus we must be above them. Again, who's to say we have a more favorable situation than some countries?



100.

At lest, you've matured.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 04:58 PM
Yes, I have traveled abroad.

Extensively? Going to the Bahamas on Spring Break doesn't really count.

Likewise, when you say what you just said, it is a generality. So, obviously, I guess we're both speaking in generalities. But what else can you speak of. It's what polling does - speaks in generalities.

Exceptionally weak response.

What exactly do you deem "Acceptance"? I mean they didn't throw things at me, but that's not what I'm saying anyway. They didn't talk bad about Americans, though I didn't understand a lot of the Italian flying around so they could have been. :p

I guess that if you havn't been exposed to the languages it may be a problem for you. In my travels we have had to hire a translator for interface. My translator was typically with me from the time I ate breakfast until after dinner so there was less of a language barrier to contend with.

Ok....

:rolleyes:

Your belief that the world doesn't look down on the U.S. is more propaganda material that is reported and less actual people and their views.

On a people level I can say that I met very few in the countries that I've been in that looks down on the U.S. I've found that individuals are more willing to speak about their concerns on a one to one level. My opinion is formed from actual people, yours seems to be based on media.

See, two can play at that game.

:rolleyes:

No, I said I haven't LIVED elsewhere.

Have you had extended periods outside the country? On the projects I work on sometimes I'm out for 45 days at a maximum down to a week at a time.

Hang on to your perception. Until you witness some first hand experience with people face to face you will not even consider changing your beliefs. YOU may be one of the ugly American they all talk about.

Thig Lyfe
04-02-2008, 05:12 PM
There's a quote that I like that says something like, "Blind nationalism is the value of real estate over principles." I think the U.S. is wonderful and we've got the best thing going, but at the same time I recognize that our country was founded by people who revolted against their government because they had a better idea.

Yep. To many people (both in this thread and in America overall) the idea of being American is blind allegiance to the country and the people who run it. The irony is palpable.

In reality, questioning and challenging our actions is much more American than pretending everything we do is the best thing ever.

This "If you don't love everything about America you can move to France LOLOL" mindset is silly and dangerous.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-02-2008, 05:27 PM
:LOL: Did you even read the definition? How is admitting we have a much more favorable situation here in the US than most of the rest of the world claiming superiority over others?

Why should that make you feel proud? Shouldn't that just make you feel fortunate?

There is a difference in the two feelings, and it shouldn't require too much brain crunching to figure out what it is.

I'm going to paraphase Al Franken. Stay with me...

The biggest difference I see in this thread is that there are those who love the United States the way that a 5 year old loves their dad--he's Superman and he does nothing wrong. That's the viewpoint I see from you, Tom C*sh, Iowanian, and others.

In my opinion, it is a view completely devoid of any attempt at analysis or critical thinking. It's also the same type of thought process that leads to jingoism in any country. It's reductive and simplistic, and quite frankly, an embarrassing viewpoint for a literate adult to hold.

Conversely, there are those who see the warts that the United States has, and wishes that its citizens would try to improve them. The mere acknowledgement of the fact that there are flaws in the nation state and society that we belong to does not mean that one hates their country of residence, merely that they realize it and its government is not perfect, and needs improvement.

Should I be proud of being an Austrian if I was born there? What about a Norwegian? In both places I'm still a part of a democratic society that has freedom of the press and speech. Should I be shouted down if I critique the processes of those societies or governments if I am a citizen of either country?

I'm not ungrateful that I'm from the United States, but I'm also not stupid or naive enough to gloss over the fact that this country has participated in things like Iran Contra, Central American death squads, the installment of Pinochet, and numerous other uglies over the years.

You don't have to be a Stepford Wife to be an American Citizen.

Taco John
04-02-2008, 06:04 PM
One thing that I'm loving about the John Adams mini-series on HBO is that they show just how divergent the ideas of the founding fathers really were. I loved the scene where John Adams and Thomas Jefferson got into it over the purpose of government.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 06:12 PM
One thing that I'm loving about the John Adams mini-series on HBO is that they show just how divergent the ideas of the founding fathers really were. I loved the scene where John Adams and Thomas Jefferson got into it over the purpose of government.

What I find with the John Adams mini-series is that the writers have tended to take liberties with the facts. The divergent ideas just might be another case of altering the facts to meet a desired result among the viewers. (looks like it has probably worked in your case)

chagrin
04-02-2008, 06:36 PM
anyone who didn't vote "always" I am willing to bet that they don't have a long ancestry of folks who actually settled here when the money was still being discovered,and truly fought for through the different eras. People who vote 'usually' are most likely folks who came here after the USA was well established as one of the richest countries in the world and certainly the most free,seeking to simply take advantage and hide behind people like my ancestors who actually fought for our freedom; you know the people who weak all over the blood of my forefathers crying that we haven't been free enough or they just haven't gotten enough money out of the deal...

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 06:45 PM
Yep. To many people (both in this thread and in America overall) the idea of being American is blind allegiance to the country and the people who run it. The irony is palpable.

In reality, questioning and challenging our actions is much more American than pretending everything we do is the best thing ever.

This "If you don't love everything about America you can move to France LOLOL" mindset is silly and dangerous.

And that's what I'm trying to get at.

Great summary.

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 06:45 PM
The biggest difference I see in this thread is that there are those who love the United States the way that a 5 year old loves their dad--he's Superman and he does nothing wrong. That's the viewpoint I see from you, Tom C*sh, Iowanian, and others.

In my opinion, it is a view completely devoid of any attempt at analysis or critical thinking. It's also the same type of thought process that leads to jingoism in any country. It's reductive and simplistic, and quite frankly, an embarrassing viewpoint for a literate adult to hold.

Conversely, there are those who see the warts that the United States has, and wishes that its citizens would try to improve them. The mere acknowledgement of the fact that there are flaws in the nation state and society that we belong to does not mean that one hates their country of residence, merely that they realize it and its government is not perfect, and needs improvement.

Should I be proud of being an Austrian if I was born there? What about a Norwegian? In both places I'm still a part of a democratic society that has freedom of the press and speech. Should I be shouted down if I critique the processes of those societies or governments if I am a citizen of either country?

I'm not ungrateful that I'm from the United States, but I'm also not stupid or naive enough to gloss over the fact that this country has participated in things like Iran Contra, Central American death squads, the installment of Pinochet, and numerous other uglies over the years.

You don't have to be a Stepford Wife to be an American Citizen.

Or a http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/84/brownshirtpd5.gif (http://imageshack.us) either.

Made a new smiley. Props to a1na2a for inspiration.
Next...a jack booted thug?

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 06:48 PM
anyone who didn't vote "always" I am willing to bet that they don't have a long ancestry of folks who actually settled here when the money was still being discovered,and truly fought for through the different eras. People who vote 'usually' are most likely folks who came here after the USA was well established as one of the richest countries in the world and certainly the most free,seeking to simply take advantage and hide behind people like my ancestors who actually fought for our freedom; you know the people who weak all over the blood of my forefathers crying that we haven't been free enough or they just haven't gotten enough money out of the deal...

That may be the dumbest post I've seen in a long, long while. Okay, wait, Tom's defense of the prayer healing family takes the cake so you're off the hook. But seriously man, that's one of the most inaccurate posts and the most generalizing post in the entire thread.

And what's said is everything in your post is exactly what makes up my opinion on why I cannot be proud of the country. "You must fight for the country NO MATTER WHERE, WHEN OR WHY and you must not question." is the only way of being a citizen or an "American."

In sum, your post is everything that SportsRacer points out that's dangerous.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 06:57 PM
Why should that make you feel proud? Shouldn't that just make you feel fortunate?

There is a difference in the two feelings, and it shouldn't require too much brain crunching to figure out what it is.

I'm going to paraphase Al Franken. Stay with me...

The biggest difference I see in this thread is that there are those who love the United States the way that a 5 year old loves their dad--he's Superman and he does nothing wrong. That's the viewpoint I see from you, Tom C*sh, Iowanian, and others.

In my opinion, it is a view completely devoid of any attempt at analysis or critical thinking. It's also the same type of thought process that leads to jingoism in any country. It's reductive and simplistic, and quite frankly, an embarrassing viewpoint for a literate adult to hold.

Conversely, there are those who see the warts that the United States has, and wishes that its citizens would try to improve them. The mere acknowledgement of the fact that there are flaws in the nation state and society that we belong to does not mean that one hates their country of residence, merely that they realize it and its government is not perfect, and needs improvement.

Should I be proud of being an Austrian if I was born there? What about a Norwegian? In both places I'm still a part of a democratic society that has freedom of the press and speech. Should I be shouted down if I critique the processes of those societies or governments if I am a citizen of either country?

I'm not ungrateful that I'm from the United States, but I'm also not stupid or naive enough to gloss over the fact that this country has participated in things like Iran Contra, Central American death squads, the installment of Pinochet, and numerous other uglies over the years.

You don't have to be a Stepford Wife to be an American Citizen.

I have never seen such a boat load of bullshit.

You seem to misunderstand what pride in your country is all about. You take your country for what it is. You work every day to address the issues that tend to make the country less than it can be.

I choose to support the U.S. and work towards making it better, you choose to sit on your ass and complain incessantly about the things that are wrong.

I won't invite you to leave the country as others have, but I will invite you to take a look at your standpoint and ask yourself if you feel that you deserve to live in a country that gives you the freedom to speak as you do just because you are a citizen. Try finding another country that will allow that with the same impunity that you have here.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 06:59 PM
That may be the dumbest post I've seen in a long, long while. Okay, wait, Tom's defense of the prayer healing family takes the cake so you're off the hook. But seriously man, that's one of the most inaccurate posts and the most generalizing post in the entire thread.

And what's said is everything in your post is exactly what makes up my opinion on why I cannot be proud of the country. "You must fight for the country NO MATTER WHERE, WHEN OR WHY and you must not question." is the only way of being a citizen or an "American."

In sum, your post is everything that SportsRacer points out that's dangerous.

Once again you show that you don't have a sufficient response to a post so you insult the poster and others.

I didn't defend the family you speak of in the manner that you speak. You haven't a clue as to the basis of my argument and have proven it once again.

Your ignorance of the issue is what we are talking about, not the commentary of others.

Jenson71
04-02-2008, 07:01 PM
What I find with the John Adams mini-series is that the writers have tended to take liberties with the facts. The divergent ideas just might be another case of altering the facts to meet a desired result among the viewers. (looks like it has probably worked in your case)

I haven't seen the program, but it's well known that the founders did not agree on everything (how could they?). Many even had their own different interpretations of the Constitution as they walked out of the Penn. State House.

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 07:01 PM
anyone who didn't vote "always" I am willing to bet that they don't have a long ancestry of folks who actually settled here when the money was still being discovered,and truly fought for through the different eras. People who vote 'usually' are most likely folks who came here after the USA was well established as one of the richest countries in the world and certainly the most free,seeking to simply take advantage and hide behind people like my ancestors who actually fought for our freedom; you know the people who weak all over the blood of my forefathers crying that we haven't been free enough or they just haven't gotten enough money out of the deal...I'm not sure I follow the point you're trying to make, or the relevance of it, if I do undestand what you're saying. I had ancestors here as far back in the early eighteenth century, and I believe earlier than that. Some of my ancestors fought in the revolution, some fought in the civil war, hell, my maternal grandfather was part of the manhattan project and helped develop the atomic bomb (he later lived in Japan and saw the results of his work first hand, but that's a story for another time). I even have some Cherokee in me, four or five generations back, so I guess my ancestry on this continent must date back tens of thousands of years.

So, if I get what you're saying, because of that, I should just vote "always", rather than seriously and objectively consider the question? Or does my family tree give me enough credibility that you don't think I'm walking on yours when I dare to have my own opinion, even if it isn't the flat, hollow voice of a "patriotic" automaton?

a1na2
04-02-2008, 07:02 PM
I haven't seen the program, but it's well known that the founders did not agree on everything (how could they?). Many even had their own different interpretations of the Constitution as they walked out of the Penn. State House.

Have you tried studying history? You might make an effort.

Jenson71
04-02-2008, 07:04 PM
Have you tried studying history? You might make an effort.

Yeah, a little bit. I'm a History major. Do you think my post is wrong?

mlyonsd
04-02-2008, 07:04 PM
Great thread J. It shows without a doubt how diverse a people we are and how each of us feel the need to out do the other with bull chit.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 07:06 PM
Yeah, a little bit. I'm a History major. Do you think my post is wrong?

If you are making a statement about a mini-series that you have not seen based on your comment, yes your post is wrong.

The history I studied has less of a differential than what I've seen.

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 07:06 PM
Once again you show that you don't have a sufficient response to a post so you insult the poster and others.There's this word I'm thinking of. It's on the tip of my tongue. Damnit, what is it?

Oh, yeah. I remember now.

"Irony".

Jenson71
04-02-2008, 07:10 PM
If you are making a statement about a mini-series that you have not seen based on your comment, yes your post is wrong.

The history I studied has less of a differential than what I've seen.

Okay, so you're saying my post had no incorrect information then? Because it looked like you were telling TJ that he was wrong about how there were different ideas the founders had on the same things.

BucEyedPea
04-02-2008, 07:11 PM
There's this word I'm thinking of. It's on the tip of my tongue. Damnit, what is it?

Oh, yeah. I remember now.

"Irony".
Also..."projection." Or "It takes one to know one."

Or "I can do anything you can do better!"

Rain Man
04-02-2008, 07:25 PM
Yep. To many people (both in this thread and in America overall) the idea of being American is blind allegiance to the country and the people who run it. The irony is palpable.

In reality, questioning and challenging our actions is much more American than pretending everything we do is the best thing ever.

This "If you don't love everything about America you can move to France LOLOL" mindset is silly and dangerous.

Nice post. As I mentioned earlier, this country was founded by a bunch of people who valued a vision and principles over loyalty to their existing government.

I don't think any of us here are ungrateful to be an American. How can you not love a country that has football and cheerleaders and pizza and movies on demand and the Interstate Highway System? The U.S. is awesome. If the U.S. was in high school, it would be the all-state quarterback with a perfect GPA and SAT score, and dating both the prom queen and the perverted 30-something biology teacher that we now know is quite common.

I also think we're also proud of the IDEA of America, of the idealization of the concepts of free speech and capitalism and the idea that any man or woman can not only pursue life, liberty, and happiness, but achieve it. Is the actual execution of that vision perfect? No, not by a long shot. We're a country of humans, and humans squabble and steal and seize power. And we're the Dudley Do-Rights in a world of Borises and Natashas, who are always trying to knock us off Horse, our horse. That means that we can't always play to our ideals, which is unfortunate.

The question to consider is how far short we can fall before America no longer can lay claim to its ideal image. Some feel that we've already passed that line, and others feel that we're nowhere close. But I suspect that everyone has a line where they would no longer consider America to be America. And at that point, a revolution - peaceful or not - will be necessary to reinstall the dream.

mcan
04-02-2008, 07:26 PM
I'm thankfull that I live in a country that affords me opportunity to advance in society and that I have certain rights. However, I'm not PROUD in the strict sense of the word. Purely because I think that opportunity and inalienable rights are (or at least should be) given and granted to all humans everywhere, all the time. The US gives me that, but you can't be proud of doing something that you're SUPPOSED to do, or would be a supreme asshole for not doing. I'm not necessarily proud of our government simply for not being Hitler. I believe Chris Rock has a whole speech about how dumbasses are PROUD of things like 'not having been to jail.' Well, dumbass, you're not SUPPOSED to go jail.

On the other hand, however, I'm often VERY proud of the people of this country. The way we come together after a crisis. Charities. Proud and impressed at the way we've led the world forward into a new technologies and progressed the way we think about global communication. There are a great number of things to be proud about when it comes to America.

But our government, our foreign policy, our tax system, our backwards view towards sexuality, our fear of minorities, our health care system, and our inability to shake some of our puritan roots... Those are things I'm ashamed of this country for.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2008, 07:27 PM
I have never seen such a boat load of bullshit.

Maybe you should read some of your posts. ;)

You seem to misunderstand what pride in your country is all about. You take your country for what it is. You work every day to address the issues that tend to make the country less than it can be.

I choose to support the U.S. and work towards making it better, you choose to sit on your ass and complain incessantly about the things that are wrong.

Right.... All those that are proud work to keep the pride going but all those who question "sit on their ass and complain". How can anyone take you seriously when you make statements like this?


I won't invite you to leave the country as others have, but I will invite you to take a look at your standpoint and ask yourself if you feel that you deserve to live in a country that gives you the freedom to speak as you do just because you are a citizen. Try finding another country that will allow that with the same impunity that you have here.

So, find another country that welcomes your questioning? I see. We're supposed to sit back, submit to anything, and be proud about it. That's what America is all about. :rolleyes:

Once again you show that you don't have a sufficient response to a post so you insult the poster and others.

No. There's a difference between insulting someone for the sake of insulting and insulting someone and backing it up. I think the rest of my post pretty much backed it up. If not, see keg's post as it said things I didn't but wanted to.

I didn't defend the family you speak of in the manner that you speak. You haven't a clue as to the basis of my argument and have proven it once again.


Really? I seem to recall someone quoting a bunch of your posts to call you out on your hypocrisy. Moreover, I saw you defending them on more than one post, so I don't know where I'm wrong. But that's irrelevant.


Your ignorance of the issue is what we are talking about, not the commentary of others.

ROFL Pot, meet, kettle.

I'm not sure I follow the point you're trying to make, or the relevance of it, if I do undestand what you're saying. I had ancestors here as far back in the early eighteenth century, and I believe earlier than that. Some of my ancestors fought in the revolution, some fought in the civil war, hell, my maternal grandfather was part of the manhattan project and helped develop the atomic bomb (he later lived in Japan and saw the results of his work first hand, but that's a story for another time). I even have some Cherokee in me, four or five generations back, so I guess my ancestry on this continent must date back tens of thousands of years.

So, if I get what you're saying, because of that, I should just vote "always", rather than seriously and objectively consider the question? Or does my family tree give me enough credibility that you don't think I'm walking on yours when I dare to have my own opinion, even if it isn't the flat, hollow voice of a "patriotic" automaton?

Thank you for saying what I couldn't.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 07:36 PM
Maybe you should read some of your posts.

Maybe you need to make an attempt to read what is said. But I'm sure that facts have never been part of your game plan.


Right.... All those that are proud work to keep the pride going but all those who question "sit on their ass and complain". How can anyone take you seriously when you make statements like this?

Your ability to completely miss the point is amazing. Again, don't let facts get in the way of your whining.

So, find another country that welcomes your questioning? I see. We're supposed to sit back, submit to anything, and be proud about it. That's what America is all about.

Never said he needed to leave. Indicate what other country in the world gives you the freedom to criticize your country with impunity. It is very apparent that you don't know what America is all about. "HINT" It's not about you.

No. There's a difference between insulting someone for the sake of insulting and insulting someone and backing it up. I think the rest of my post pretty much backed it up. If not, see keg's post as it said things I didn't but wanted to.



Really? I seem to recall someone quoting a bunch of your posts to call you out on your hypocrisy. Moreover, I saw you defending them on more than one post, so I don't know where I'm wrong. But that's irrelevant.

Defending their right to make decisions they did. They did not break any laws. They did not believe in the use of doctors like many people in the U.S. You cannot compel someone to use a service they do not believe in. The family was unaware of the disease and was treating their child as anyone would (short of somehow amazingly recognizing a disease they were unaware of).

Thank you for saying what I couldn't.

It seems like you don't have the ability to post coherently when you are mad. ROFL

a1na2
04-02-2008, 07:37 PM
There's this word I'm thinking of. It's on the tip of my tongue. Damnit, what is it?

Oh, yeah. I remember now.

"Irony".

Gee, I'm so hurt. Good thing I hold you in such high regard.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 07:38 PM
Okay, so you're saying my post had no incorrect information then? Because it looked like you were telling TJ that he was wrong about how there were different ideas the founders had on the same things.


What ever you want to read into it bozo.

Sully
04-02-2008, 07:41 PM
One thing that I'm loving about the John Adams mini-series on HBO is that they show just how divergent the ideas of the founding fathers really were. I loved the scene where John Adams and Thomas Jefferson got into it over the purpose of government.

It's a great miniseries, and has stayed very close to the facts.
I wish there was more of Madison in it (and even more of Jefferson), but I'm very happy with its accuracy.
You are right, there was a wide variety of divergent ideas taking place among our founding fathers. Tons.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 07:48 PM
It's a great miniseries, and has stayed very close to the facts.
I wish there was more of Madison in it (and even more of Jefferson), but I'm very happy with its accuracy.
You are right, there was a wide variety of divergent ideas taking place among our founding fathers. Tons.

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Taking liberties with the truth is wrong, no matter what the reason.

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 07:48 PM
Nice post. As I mentioned earlier, this country was founded by a bunch of people who valued a vision and principles over loyalty to their existing government.

I don't think any of us here are ungrateful to be an American. How can you not love a country that has football and cheerleaders and pizza and movies on demand and the Interstate Highway System? The U.S. is awesome. If the U.S. was in high school, it would be the all-state quarterback with a perfect GPA and SAT score, and dating both the prom queen and the perverted 30-something biology teacher that we now know is quite common.

I also think we're also proud of the IDEA of America, of the idealization of the concepts of free speech and capitalism and the idea that any man or woman can not only pursue life, liberty, and happiness, but achieve it. Is the actual execution of that vision perfect? No, not by a long shot. We're a country of humans, and humans squabble and steal and seize power. And we're the Dudley Do-Rights in a world of Borises and Natashas, who are always trying to knock us off Horse, our horse. That means that we can't always play to our ideals, which is unfortunate.

The question to consider is how far short we can fall before America no longer can lay claim to its ideal image. Some feel that we've already passed that line, and others feel that we're nowhere close. But I suspect that everyone has a line where they would no longer consider America to be America. And at that point, a revolution - peaceful or not - will be necessary to reinstall the dream.Very, very well said, Kevin.

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 07:49 PM
Gee, I'm so hurt. Good thing I hold you in such high regard....Once again you show that you don't have a sufficient response to a post so you insult the poster

Sully
04-02-2008, 07:49 PM
Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Taking liberties with the truth is wrong, no matter what the reason.

Which liberties have they taken?

Logical
04-02-2008, 08:39 PM
Well, actually our farmers don't feed the world, unfortunately. The WTO won't allow the US to ship it's crops overseas because our crops are genetically engineered. Even to starving nations.


This is just sad, and I did not know it.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 08:44 PM
Which liberties have they taken?

:rolleyes:

Sully
04-02-2008, 08:46 PM
:rolleyes:

No answer?
mmmkay....

funny.

mlyonsd
04-02-2008, 08:47 PM
Nice post. As I mentioned earlier, this country was founded by a bunch of people who valued a vision and principles over loyalty to their existing government.

I don't think any of us here are ungrateful to be an American. How can you not love a country that has football and cheerleaders and pizza and movies on demand and the Interstate Highway System? The U.S. is awesome. If the U.S. was in high school, it would be the all-state quarterback with a perfect GPA and SAT score, and dating both the prom queen and the perverted 30-something biology teacher that we now know is quite common.

I also think we're also proud of the IDEA of America, of the idealization of the concepts of free speech and capitalism and the idea that any man or woman can not only pursue life, liberty, and happiness, but achieve it. Is the actual execution of that vision perfect? No, not by a long shot. We're a country of humans, and humans squabble and steal and seize power. And we're the Dudley Do-Rights in a world of Borises and Natashas, who are always trying to knock us off Horse, our horse. That means that we can't always play to our ideals, which is unfortunate.

The question to consider is how far short we can fall before America no longer can lay claim to its ideal image. Some feel that we've already passed that line, and others feel that we're nowhere close. But I suspect that everyone has a line where they would no longer consider America to be America. And at that point, a revolution - peaceful or not - will be necessary to reinstall the dream.

Word.

Logical
04-02-2008, 08:53 PM
Is this your way of running from this question?



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnocentrism

Ethnocentrism: characterized by or based on the attitude that one's own group is superior

Oh jesus (Latino pronunciation) Crist, there is no denying that Americans are dominated by ethnocentrism if you want to argue about it. Argue over whether it is a bad thing.

Logical
04-02-2008, 08:56 PM
...
The opinion that what we have going in America is better than what others are left with is true. But that’s not “ethnocentrism”, as I’ve already posted the definition.
Sorry, yes it is.

Logical
04-02-2008, 09:01 PM
Why should that make you feel proud? Shouldn't that just make you feel fortunate?

There is a difference in the two feelings, and it shouldn't require too much brain crunching to figure out what it is.

I'm going to paraphase Al Franken. Stay with me...

The biggest difference I see in this thread is that there are those who love the United States the way that a 5 year old loves their dad--he's Superman and he does nothing wrong. That's the viewpoint I see from you, Tom C*sh, Iowanian, and others.

In my opinion, it is a view completely devoid of any attempt at analysis or critical thinking. It's also the same type of thought process that leads to jingoism in any country. It's reductive and simplistic, and quite frankly, an embarrassing viewpoint for a literate adult to hold.

Conversely, there are those who see the warts that the United States has, and wishes that its citizens would try to improve them. The mere acknowledgement of the fact that there are flaws in the nation state and society that we belong to does not mean that one hates their country of residence, merely that they realize it and its government is not perfect, and needs improvement.

Should I be proud of being an Austrian if I was born there? What about a Norwegian? In both places I'm still a part of a democratic society that has freedom of the press and speech. Should I be shouted down if I critique the processes of those societies or governments if I am a citizen of either country?

I'm not ungrateful that I'm from the United States, but I'm also not stupid or naive enough to gloss over the fact that this country has participated in things like Iran Contra, Central American death squads, the installment of Pinochet, and numerous other uglies over the years.

You don't have to be a Stepford Wife to be an American Citizen.

Hamas, this may literally be your most well thought out and IMO valid post ever.:clap::clap:

Logical
04-02-2008, 09:03 PM
What I find with the John Adams mini-series is that the writers have tended to take liberties with the facts. The divergent ideas just might be another case of altering the facts to meet a desired result among the viewers. (looks like it has probably worked in your case):spock::doh!::rolleyes::eek::shake:ROFL

Jenson71
04-02-2008, 09:04 PM
What ever you want to read into it bozo.

Can't you answer a straight question?

Logical
04-02-2008, 09:04 PM
anyone who didn't vote "always" I am willing to bet that they don't have a long ancestry of folks who actually settled here when the money was still being discovered,and truly fought for through the different eras. People who vote 'usually' are most likely folks who came here after the USA was well established as one of the richest countries in the world and certainly the most free,seeking to simply take advantage and hide behind people like my ancestors who actually fought for our freedom; you know the people who weak all over the blood of my forefathers crying that we haven't been free enough or they just haven't gotten enough money out of the deal...

The presumptive logic of this post is absent any rationale basis and can only be the authors opinion.

Sully
04-02-2008, 09:08 PM
Can't you answer a straight question?

ROFL
Been trying to get him to for 3 days now.
I don't think he can/will.

Logical
04-02-2008, 09:10 PM
There's this word I'm thinking of. It's on the tip of my tongue. Damnit, what is it?

Oh, yeah. I remember now.

"Irony".
:D

Jenson71
04-02-2008, 09:14 PM
ROFL
Been trying to get him to for 3 days now.
I don't think he can/will.

The thing is he comes in with such authority, telling TJ he's gullible, telling us the writers have not told the truth, telling me I need to read history, and then hides or gives you a rolleyes smilie when we legitimately press him for more.

Logical
04-02-2008, 09:16 PM
Nice post. As I mentioned earlier, this country was founded by a bunch of people who valued a vision and principles over loyalty to their existing government.

I don't think any of us here are ungrateful to be an American. How can you not love a country that has football and cheerleaders and pizza and movies on demand and the Interstate Highway System? The U.S. is awesome. If the U.S. was in high school, it would be the all-state quarterback with a perfect GPA and SAT score, and dating both the prom queen and the perverted 30-something biology teacher that we now know is quite common.

I also think we're also proud of the IDEA of America, of the idealization of the concepts of free speech and capitalism and the idea that any man or woman can not only pursue life, liberty, and happiness, but achieve it. Is the actual execution of that vision perfect? No, not by a long shot. We're a country of humans, and humans squabble and steal and seize power. And we're the Dudley Do-Rights in a world of Borises and Natashas, who are always trying to knock us off Horse, our horse. That means that we can't always play to our ideals, which is unfortunate.

The question to consider is how far short we can fall before America no longer can lay claim to its ideal image. Some feel that we've already passed that line, and others feel that we're nowhere close. But I suspect that everyone has a line where they would no longer consider America to be America. And at that point, a revolution - peaceful or not - will be necessary to reinstall the dream.

Wow Kevin, I felt like saying the Pledge of Alegience after reading this post. Seriously nice post.

Put another way from one of my favorite comedies "Shit man if America was a woman she would be the big tittied woman.

Logical
04-02-2008, 09:18 PM
....

Put another way from one of my favorite comedies "Shit man if America was a woman she would be the big tittied woman.
By the way don't google that line from a movie at work. (shit)

Sully
04-02-2008, 09:20 PM
The thing is he comes in with such authority, telling TJ he's gullible, telling us the writers have not told the truth, telling me I need to read history, and then hides or gives you a rolleyes smilie when we legitimately press him for more.

My Bachelor's in History didn't teach me much, But I'll put my Revolutionary knowledge against his any day.

Simply Red
04-02-2008, 09:21 PM
I'm always proud to be an American, but I'm sometimes disappointed in other Americans.

Yeah, tough to argue any other opinion. Dead-on, IMO.

Logical
04-02-2008, 09:23 PM
Can't you answer a straight question?
You had to be using sarcasm to have posted this statement.

88TG88
04-02-2008, 09:25 PM
I'm proud about 98% of the time.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 09:28 PM
No answer?
mmmkay....

funny.

Why answer something that you have already admitted to.

Close isn't fully accurate.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 09:31 PM
Can't you answer a straight question?


I'll chose to keep you spinning. Does your heart good.

Sully
04-02-2008, 09:36 PM
Why answer something that you have already admitted to.

Close isn't fully accurate.

I want to know what you see as inaccurate.
I know what's inaccurate, and it has absolutely nothing to do with what you are trying to claim.
I know you won't answer. I believe it's because you simply don't know, but you could always prove me wrong. But I know you don't like to even try and back up your false claims.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 09:46 PM
I want to know what you see as inaccurate.
I know what's inaccurate, and it has absolutely nothing to do with what you are trying to claim.
I know you won't answer. I believe it's because you simply don't know, but you could always prove me wrong. But I know you don't like to even try and back up your false claims.

If you can't see the inaccuracies what good will it do for me to point them out to you?

You claim to be a great historian. Watch the series and pick them out yourself.

Your claim about what I know is really a dumb thing for you to use to illicit a response.

I get more enjoyment getting you to be pissed off.

I'm not interested in what you want to think, but I am amazed that you are glossing over the fact that you felt it was only close to being accurate.

Sully
04-02-2008, 09:51 PM
If you can't see the inaccuracies what good will it do for me to point them out to you?

You claim to be a great historian. Watch the series and pick them out yourself.

Your claim about what I know is really a dumb thing for you to use to illicit a response.

I get more enjoyment getting you to be pissed off.

I'm not interested in what you want to think, but I am amazed that you are glossing over the fact that you felt it was only close to being accurate.

I always find it funny that you want to think I'm pissed, when that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not the one scratching out angry PMs (that's you), I'm not the one dodging questions (that's you).

I never claimed to be a great historian, nothing of the sort. I'm just more of a historian than you (which doesn't put me in any sort of elite company).

Like I said, I know the inaccuracies. I was just curious if you were going to run from backing up another unfounded (dishonest?) claim. Once again, you've proven you won't. Your fear, once again, has paralyzed you.

So once again, you'd rather try and turn this into a pissing match, than answer a simple question. Once again, you'd prefer to be the hypocrite. And once again, I get to have fun watching you play my game.

Thanks again, Tom C@sh.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 09:58 PM
I always find it funny that you want to think I'm pissed, when that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not the one scratching out angry PMs (that's you), I'm not the one dodging questions (that's you).

I never claimed to be a great historian, nothing of the sort. I'm just more of a historian than you (which doesn't put me in any sort of elite company).

Like I said, I know the inaccuracies. I was just curious if you were going to run from backing up another unfounded (dishonest?) claim. Once again, you've proven you won't. Your fear, once again, has paralyzed you.

So once again, you'd rather try and turn this into a pissing match, than answer a simple question. Once again, you'd prefer to be the hypocrite. And once again, I get to have fun watching you play my game.

Thanks again, Tom C@sh.

I haven't pm'd anyone for a while.

You always fall back to insults and name calling. Your decided need to have some one fear you is troubling, I think you may need professional help to get you by that.

Sully, if you had a lick of sense you would realize that you are being played and you are just having trouble coming to grips with it.

Continue on, maybe it's therapy for you.

Jenson71
04-02-2008, 10:00 PM
If you can't see the inaccuracies what good will it do for me to point them out to you?

You claim to be a great historian. Watch the series and pick them out yourself.

You've got to be the most unreasonable and least thoughtful poster on this board.

"If you don't know something, what good would it do to tell you it?" I've never seen that drastic of a cop-out before. Thanks for the history lesson?

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 10:00 PM
I always find it funny that you want to think I'm pissed, when that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not the one scratching out angry PMs (that's you), I'm not the one dodging questions (that's you).

I never claimed to be a great historian, nothing of the sort. I'm just more of a historian than you (which doesn't put me in any sort of elite company).

Like I said, I know the inaccuracies. I was just curious if you were going to run from backing up another unfounded (dishonest?) claim. Once again, you've proven you won't. Your fear, once again, has paralyzed you.

So once again, you'd rather try and turn this into a pissing match, than answer a simple question. Once again, you'd prefer to be the hypocrite. And once again, I get to have fun watching you play my game.

Thanks again, Tom C@sh.So, he's a badass PM shooter, eh.

I'd say I'm surprised, but, well, he negrepped me and said "Try to get a life, eh?"

Way to show us how to avoid those insults and name-calling, Cash.

Hell, you don't even have the guts to do it out in the open.

Jenson71
04-02-2008, 10:01 PM
I haven't pm'd anyone for a while.

You just PM'd me yesterday. A couple of times. Remember? It started out "Grow up, moron"

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:04 PM
So, he's a badass PM shooter, eh.

I'd say I'm surprised, but, well, he negrepped me and said "Try to get a life, eh?"

Way to show us how to avoid those insults and name-calling, Cash.

Hell, you don't even have the guts to do it out in the open.

Try and get a life, eh?

The story about PM's is greatly exaggerated. But who am I to deny Sully the pleasure of his paranoia?

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:04 PM
You just PM'd me yesterday. A couple of times. Remember? It started out "Grow up, moron"

Sure I did.

Sully
04-02-2008, 10:06 PM
I haven't pm'd anyone for a while.

You always fall back to insults and name calling. Your decided need to have some one fear you is troubling, I think you may need professional help to get you by that.

Sully, if you had a lick of sense you would realize that you are being played and you are just having trouble coming to grips with it.

Continue on, maybe it's therapy for you.

LOL
You PMed me 3 days ago!!!

I never said you feared me. I maintain you fear answering a straight question because you know you are in over your head. You simply aren't intelligent enough to back up your uninformed claims or aren't intelligent enough to stop yourself from making them. Maybe you aren't afraid... maybe you enjoy that you come across as a dimwit. I don't know your motivation, I am just laughing at it.

As far as me "being played..."
I enjoy pointing out your innacuracies, dishonesty, and fear. So keep "playing" me. Keep making idiotic claims. I'll continue to walk into your "traps" and point out your inadequacies.

Sully
04-02-2008, 10:06 PM
So, he's a badass PM shooter, eh.

I'd say I'm surprised, but, well, he negrepped me and said "Try to get a life, eh?"

Way to show us how to avoid those insults and name-calling, Cash.

Hell, you don't even have the guts to do it out in the open.

ROFL

Sully
04-02-2008, 10:07 PM
You just PM'd me yesterday. A couple of times. Remember? It started out "Grow up, moron"

ROFL

Sully
04-02-2008, 10:07 PM
What a coward.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:08 PM
LOL
You PMed me 3 days ago!!!

I never said you feared me. I maintain you fear answering a straight question because you know you are in over your head. You simply aren't intelligent enough to back up your uninformed claims or aren't intelligent enough to stop yourself from making them. Maybe you aren't afraid... maybe you enjoy that you come across as a dimwit. I don't know your motivation, I am just laughing at it.

As far as me "being played..."
I enjoy pointing out your innacuracies (try using a spell checker), dishonesty, and fear. So keep "playing" me. Keep making idiotic claims. I'll continue to walk into your "traps" and point out your inadequacies.

You are exceptionally boring. Fear that.

I don't think you have the intelligence to point out anything, but I digress.

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 10:10 PM
Try and get a life, eh?Yep.

Your great debating skills at work. Good to see you're above base insults.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:10 PM
What a coward.

Another way of saying that you can't post anything worthwhile.

Good thing you are happy with yourself. Somebody's got to be, right?

NewChief
04-02-2008, 10:11 PM
You are exceptionally boring. Fear that.

I don't think you have the intelligence to point out anything, but I digress.

Not to dogpile or anything, but the best you got in response to this collective ass kicking is spellcheck smack? :shake:

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:11 PM
Yep.

Your great debating skills at work.

First you bitch because I didn't put it on the board, then you bitch because I do.

Which way suits you the best?

I am amused at your whining about a neg rep. Funny.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:12 PM
Not to dogpile or anything, but the best you got in response to this collective ass kicking is spellcheck smack? :shake:

Why would you care?

You might try it too.

Jenson71
04-02-2008, 10:12 PM
Yep.

Your great debating skills at work. Good to see you're above base insults.

Grow up moron

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:14 PM
Sully must be pissed, he's losing control.

Four rapid fire posts. What a loser! ROFL

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 10:15 PM
First you bitch because I didn't put it on the board, then you bitch because I do.

Which way suits you the best?

I am amused at your whining about a neg rep. Funny.There's a subtle difference between 'whining' and 'using someone's own material to expose comical hypocricy'.

I mean, hell, if you're going to go on the offensive, at least grow a pair and do it where everybody can see it, instead of this passive-aggressive bullshit.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:15 PM
Good night girls.

Rub your selves together for as long as you need to for your jollies.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:16 PM
There's a subtle difference between 'whining' and 'using someone's own material to expose comical hypocricy'.

I mean, hell, if you're going to go on the offensive, at least grow a pair and do it where everybody can see it, instead of this passive-aggressive bullshit.


Passive aggressive?

You need help dude.

(try spell checker on occasion)

Again, why are you whining?

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 10:19 PM
Go to bed, Tom, you're embarrassing yourself.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:22 PM
Go to bed, Tom, you're embarrassing yourself.

Quit your whining.

What really amuses me is the fact that it takes as many of you to pounce on someone just because. You have no reasons to be pissed but you all just jump in because you have no life.

Jeez, get a life and move on.

Jenson71
04-02-2008, 10:24 PM
We're just waiting for your analysis on the inaccuracies presented in John Adams. It had such potential for an amazingly intellectual discourse. I'm shocked you let us down.

stevieray
04-02-2008, 10:25 PM
This thread doesn't make me proud to be an American....;)

pretty interesting watching some adressing the US about feeling superior, and then watching them engage in the same behavior against each other.

Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you can not depend upon yourself.

Ben Franlklin


we all could use a dose of this quote...

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 10:27 PM
Quit your whining.

What really amuses me is the fact that it takes as many of you to pounce on someone just because. You have no reasons to be pissed but you all just jump in because you have no life.

Jeez, get a life and move on....Once again you show that you don't have a sufficient response to a post so you insult the poster

Frankie
04-02-2008, 10:33 PM
Yes and no.

Yes, I'm proud of being part of a great country that is beautiful in land and people...most of them.

No, I'm not proud when it come to that BS patriotic nationalism that has come to signify 'proud to be an American' or the government of which that same BS seeks to apologize for and collude with.

I only voted "Usually" mainly for the shortcomings you have mentioned.

Logical
04-02-2008, 10:37 PM
If you can't see the inaccuracies what good will it do for me to point them out to you?

You claim to be a great historian. Watch the series and pick them out yourself.

Your claim about what I know is really a dumb thing for you to use to illicit a response.

I get more enjoyment getting you to be pissed off.

I'm not interested in what you want to think, but I am amazed that you are glossing over the fact that you felt it was only close to being accurate.


Good lord you are a total jackass. You wonder why you get harassing phone calls. This shit is the reason.:rolleyes:

If I was still a mod I would ban your ass in every incarnation just on principle.

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 10:41 PM
Careful there, Jimbo, you might "illicit" a response.

a1na2
04-02-2008, 10:46 PM
We're just waiting for your analysis on the inaccuracies presented in John Adams. It had such potential for an amazingly intellectual discourse. I'm shocked you let us down.

I'm sharing my discourse of the show else where. Join the conversation there if you like.

Logical
04-02-2008, 10:52 PM
I haven't pm'd anyone for a while.

You always fall back to insults and name calling. Your decided need to have some one fear you is troubling, I think you may need professional help to get you by that.

Sully, if you had a lick of sense you would realize that you are being played and you are just having trouble coming to grips with it.

Continue on, maybe it's therapy for you.

Liar

Private Message: Why do you feel the need to post this? <!-- post # --> <table id="post" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td class="thead" style="border-style: solid none solid solid; border-color: rgb(204, 204, 204) -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: 1px 0px 1px 1px; font-size: x-small; font-weight: normal;"> <!-- status icon and date --> http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/statusicon/post_old.gif Today, 07:44 PM <!-- / status icon and date --> </td> <td class="thead" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 0px; font-size: x-small; font-weight: normal;" align="right"> </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="alt2" style="border-style: none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: 0px 1px;" width="175"> a1na2 (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/member.php?u=8340) <script type="text/javascript"> vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true); </script>
Crabby old man

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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pittsburg
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</td> <td class="alt1" id="td_post_" style="border-right: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);"> <!-- icon and title --> Why do you feel the need to post this?
<hr style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Jim Reynolds
Good lord you are a total jackass. You wonder why you get harassing phone calls. This shit is the reason.:rolleyes:

If I was still a mod I would ban your ass in every incarnation just on principle.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Jim, you hold people to a high standard yet you do shit like this.

I used to half way respect your stance. I don't argue on your level but you seem to have a meanness when it comes to me. I don't care if you hate me with every ounce of your being, that stuff is just over the top.

Your statement about banning leaves me to believe that the rules don't mean anything to you and that is why you are probably not a moderator these days.

You don't have to pull punches, but to encourage those that are weak to continue to call my home is inexcusable.
<!-- / message --> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: 0px 1px 1px;"> Posts: 2,689

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</td></tr></tbody></table> <!-- main page contents --> <table class="tborder" style="border-bottom-width: 0px;" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="tcat" colspan="2">Private Message: Thanks for the casino cash</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- post # --> <table id="post" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td class="thead" style="border-style: solid none solid solid; border-color: rgb(204, 204, 204) -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: 1px 0px 1px 1px; font-size: x-small; font-weight: normal;"> <!-- status icon and date --> http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/statusicon/post_old.gif Today, 03:29 AM <!-- / status icon and date --> </td> <td class="thead" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 0px; font-size: x-small; font-weight: normal;" align="right"> </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="alt2" style="border-style: none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: 0px 1px;" width="175"> a1na2 (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/member.php?u=8340) <script type="text/javascript"> vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true); </script>
Crabby old man

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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pittsburg
Casino cash: $25

</td> <td class="alt1" id="td_post_" style="border-right: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);"> <!-- icon and title --> Thanks for the casino cash
<hr style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> When you tag me I get casino cash and your neg reps really jacks up my rep numbers.

You put me over 50,000.

Who'd of ever thunk it. Jim Reynolds adds to Tom's count on the positive side.

ROFL
<!-- / message --> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: 0px 1px 1px;"> Posts: 2,689

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a1na2
04-02-2008, 11:05 PM
Liar
What's your point?

You are one of the most dishonest people I've met on the internet.

You make commitments and then don't keep them.

I'm sure that you have twisted the truth here on more than one occasion.

Logical
04-02-2008, 11:16 PM
What's your point?

You are one of the most dishonest people I've met on the internet.

You make commitments and then don't keep them.

I'm sure that you have twisted the truth here on more than one occasion.
Prove it, the search functions just fine. This is just another one of your inaccurate statements that you will never back up.

Oh by the way, next time try to lie in a way that is not so easy to prove that you did.ROFL

a1na2
04-02-2008, 11:20 PM
Prove it, the search functions just fine. This is just another one of your inaccurate statements that you will never back up.

What do you want me to put up? You know exactly what I'm talking about so there is no need for me to do any kind of search.

You are a dishonest person.

Logical
04-02-2008, 11:31 PM
What do you want me to put up? You know exactly what I'm talking about so there is no need for me to do any kind of search.

You are a dishonest person.Ah the great innuendo (without backup) scam. Nice try.ROFL

ClevelandBronco
04-03-2008, 12:43 AM
...It's "oh x didn't EXPLICITLY say that, so we'll go on assuming that no implications are every to be made. I wonder when it's okay to derive implications out.

"no implications are every to be made."

"I wonder when it's okay to derive implications out."

I'll give you one point for using the apostrophe correctly. The rest of your thought is a mystery to me.

ClevelandBronco
04-03-2008, 12:50 AM
Private messages should remain private between the parties involved, IMO. Otherwise I can't figure out what kind of cat fighting crap they were intended to spare the rest of us from witnessing.

SBK
04-03-2008, 12:57 AM
Private messages should remain private between the parties involved, IMO. Otherwise I can't figure out what kind of cat fighting crap they were intended to spare the rest of us from witnessing.

From the looks of it Jim will be showing Tom his "O" face here before long.

Jenson71
04-03-2008, 01:00 AM
Private messages should remain private between the parties involved, IMO. Otherwise I can't figure out what kind of cat fighting crap they were intended to spare the rest of us from witnessing.

Agreed, ClevelandBronco. It's a good rule to go by. The cat fighting crap must remain civil here.

Logical
04-03-2008, 01:05 AM
Private messages should remain private between the parties involved, IMO. Otherwise I can't figure out what kind of cat fighting crap they were intended to spare the rest of us from witnessing.While I understand this, he had said nothing that was really worthy of private classification and he had clearly lied when he said he had not sent PMs recently so I decided to clearly and unmistakebly point out his lie.

stevieray
04-03-2008, 01:07 AM
Private messages should remain private between the parties involved, IMO. Otherwise I can't figure out what kind of cat fighting crap they were intended to spare the rest of us from witnessing.


good luck with that...nothing is sacred on this board anymore.

irishjayhawk
04-03-2008, 01:12 AM
"no implications are every to be made."

"I wonder when it's okay to derive implications out."

I'll give you one point for using the apostrophe correctly. The rest of your thought is a mystery to me.

I forgot a quote in there. :D

Bill S Preston
04-03-2008, 01:23 AM
Very proud.

Logical
04-03-2008, 01:27 AM
good luck with that...nothing is sacred on this board anymore.Yea like it was ever sacred, here is someone posting a PM from Electric (another a1na2 identity) back in 2005

<table id="post2581650" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="thead" style="border-style: solid none solid solid; border-color: rgb(204, 204, 204) -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: 1px 0px 1px 1px; font-size: x-small; font-weight: normal;" id="currentPost"> 07-21-2005, 04:25 PM <!-- / status icon and date --> </td> <td class="thead" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204) rgb(204, 204, 204) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 0px; font-size: x-small; font-weight: normal;" align="right"> #33 (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2581650&postcount=33) </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="alt2" style="border-style: none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: 0px 1px;" width="175"> Duncan Pinderhughes (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/member.php?u=3168) <script type="text/javascript"> vbmenu_register("postmenu_2581650", true); </script>
Hi folks.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar3168_61.gif (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/member.php?u=3168)


Join Date: Nov 2003
Casino cash: $514

</td> <td class="alt1" id="td_post_2581650" style="border-right: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);"> <!-- message --> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Electric
Never said he did. I also did not have as many logins as attributed to me, but that is another story that will never have a correct number. Even if I counted I couldn't tell you.

One thing I can tell you is that I promised that I would never have multiple logins on this board again. Believe it or don't, I don't mind.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Private Message: You last post was tainted
folder icon Yesterday, 01:29 PM

You last post was tainted
Electric
R8er_H8er

Avatar

Joined: Mar 2005


Taint that funny!!!!!

I'm really enjoying you being gone. I should have done this much sooner!!

Of course you can login with one of your other alter egos and quote yourself.
</td></tr></tbody></table>

ClevelandBronco
04-03-2008, 01:31 AM
I sent my last PM to Logical two nights ago.

My last.

keg in kc
04-03-2008, 01:36 AM
I understand the whole "privacy of PM" issue, but, come on, people, Cash deserves no sympathy from anyone. He's been banned for years and is only here through illicit (there's that word again) means.

ClevelandBronco
04-03-2008, 01:39 AM
I forgot a quote in there. :D

Okay, but what did any of that mean?

Logical
04-03-2008, 02:06 AM
I sent my last PM to Logical two nights ago.

My last.
Your choice, but it is not like you have ever sent me a PM that truly merited secrecy and by the way I would not publish a reputable posters PM anyway. That you lump yourself in with a1na2 truly suprises me.

By the way did you notice that there was nothing actually private in a1na2 PMs to me, the point was he was lying saying he wasn't sending any PMs and I was not going to let him get away with it.

ClevelandBronco
04-03-2008, 02:37 AM
Your choice, but it is not like you have ever sent me a PM that truly merited secrecy and by the way I would not publish a reputable posters PM anyway. That you lump yourself in with a1na2 truly suprises me.

By the way did you notice that there was nothing actually private in a1na2 PMs to me, the point was he was lying saying he wasn't sending any PMs and I was not going to let him get away with it.

We've traded friendly PMs. Now we'll trade friendly public messages.

Sully
04-03-2008, 06:21 AM
Sully must be pissed, he's losing control.

Four rapid fire posts. What a loser! ROFL
:LOL:

RRAAWWWWRRRRR!!!!
I was so angry last night, I blacked out and apparently tormented the neighborhood. I kicked down 5 doors, set fire to a couple of household pets, and drove a car into a lake. I was out of control!!!!

Duck Dog
04-03-2008, 08:17 AM
I haven't pm'd anyone for a while.



That's funny. What's your definition of 'a while'? 'Cuz, Brotha you shot me a neg rep and two PM's on 3.31.08 over a couple of dumb ass parents who helped their daughter die by not providing her medical care.

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 08:35 AM
I'll find some for you when I have time.

Don’t hurt yourself.

No. I shouldn't have.

Are you disagreeing just to disagree?

:LOL:

Okay, so we're at a point where you and patteeu feast. It's "oh x didn't EXPLICITLY say that, so we'll go on assuming that no implications are every to be made. I wonder when it's okay to derive implications out.

Is English your second language?

I am not stumbling

Are you disagreeing just to disagree?

:LOL:

but apparently you don't ever imply anything with your questions and if they do leave room for implications, well that's just someone assuming which means you can't be held responsible for anything you say.

You’ve yet to address what I’ve said, only cried about what you want to believe I implied.

How do you know what we have is better? Is our health insurance system better than universal health care? Is the gap between the rich and the poor better than other places?

The opinion is far from true, no matter how much you wish it to be.

Because I’ve done a bit more with my life than bitch about how bad it sucks over hear while posting that opinion from my parents house.

I have answered the question that wasn't directed at me. Problem is you don't like the answer.

No you didn’t answer the question. The question was, “why does pride = belittling others or having to feel superior to them. You went on about how it’s the “alpha male” thing to do. Sorry, but that’s not answering the question.

Whereas, you've pulled the "I cannot be held for my words" card. Again, calling someone out for something while simultaneously pulling a similar stunt.

You’ve yet to address “my words”. You just keep crying about what you want to think I’ve implied.

Because they want what we have, thus we must be above them.
Finally, I forget how many posts down the road and you’re actually addressing something I’ve posted.
That’s a pretty sad way to derive pride, having to belittle or feel superior to others. I derive pride from several things, not much of it has to do with others. The feeling I derive from others less fortunate is pity and a hope that we could help improve their situation.


Again, who's to say we have a more favorable situation than some countries?

If it helps any, change “some” to “most” and I’m the one that said it.

At lest, you've matured.

You haven’t even been around long enough to know what I’m talking about, so really your characterization means squat to me.

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 08:46 AM
Oh jesus (Latino pronunciation) Crist, there is no denying that Americans are dominated by ethnocentrism if you want to argue about it. Argue over whether it is a bad thing.

Really? Got any statistics, survey info, to back that up.

Sorry, yes it is.

Sorry, but no it isn’t. That you can’t distinguish between “pride” and “ethnocentrism” doesn't surpise me any more though.

Jenson71
04-03-2008, 08:48 AM
Here are the results of the same question asked to students at my college, University of Northern Iowa:

Are you proud to be an American?

Always......... 739.... 50.51%
Usually .........529.....36.16%
Not usually ....134 ....9.16%
Never ...........19.......1.30%
I'm not from the US .....42......2.87%
TOTAL...........1463.....100%

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 08:49 AM
Private messages should remain private between the parties involved, IMO.

PM’s also shouldn’t be the playground for people to post crap they wouldn’t have the sack to post out in the open, IMO.

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 09:26 AM
Why should that make you feel proud? Shouldn't that just make you feel fortunate?

There is a difference in the two feelings, and it shouldn't require too much brain crunching to figure out what it is.

Fortunate is one feeling, but why must you commingle it with pride?
Sure they’re different feelings, never posted they weren’t. I asked why pride has to = belittling or feeling superior to others. Can you answer that question?

I'm going to paraphase Al Franken. Stay with me...

The biggest difference I see in this thread is that there are those who love the United States the way that a 5 year old loves their dad--he's Superman and he does nothing wrong. That's the viewpoint I see from you, Tom C*sh, Iowanian, and others.

You don’t even know me, have yet to accurately portray any of my opinions, why do you feel qualified to discern my “viewpoint”? Or is this type of demagoguery what lends more easily to your argument?

In my opinion, it is a view completely devoid of any attempt at analysis or critical thinking. It's also the same type of thought process that leads to jingoism in any country. It's reductive and simplistic, and quite frankly, an embarrassing viewpoint for a literate adult to hold.

I’m sure you do fell that way, seeing as how you’ve created this fantasy world where everyone not you holds the opinion that you find most contemptible.

Conversely, there are those who see the warts that the United States has, and wishes that its citizens would try to improve them. The mere acknowledgement of the fact that there are flaws in the nation state and society that we belong to does not mean that one hates their country of residence, merely that they realize it and its government is not perfect, and needs improvement.

Ah, so only the people that bitch incessantly are the ones that know what’s going on? ROFL Is that really what you’re trying to tell me?

Should I be proud of being an Austrian if I was born there? What about a Norwegian? In both places I'm still a part of a democratic society that has freedom of the press and speech. Should I be shouted down if I critique the processes of those societies or governments if I am a citizen of either country?

Are you from any of those countries? If you’re from Austria is the only way for you to feel pride in your country is to cuss those freak’n inbred Germans? If you’re from Norway is the only way for you to feel pride in your country is to make fun of those dirty Swedes?
Who has posted that you should be “shouted down” for expressing legitimate concerns?

I'm not ungrateful that I'm from the United States, but I'm also not stupid or naive enough to gloss over the fact that this country has participated in things like Iran Contra, Central American death squads, the installment of Pinochet, and numerous other uglies over the years.

Who do you think you’re talking to? I can trace my Cherokee ancestry to the “Trail of Tears”, my Irish heritage to the “potato famine” and even worse once here. Yet I still find pride in being American. How can that be? Maybe because I embrace our country, warts and all, knowing that history is just that and can’t be changed, that the ugly things that have been perpetrated in our past are part of growing up. I’ve done many bad things in my past, I feel that’s helped me grow into a more rounded, understanding adult.

You don't have to be a Stepford Wife to be an American Citizen.

Ah, but apparently you have to be “Stepford Wife” to be an intellectual. ROFL

irishjayhawk
04-03-2008, 10:31 AM
Don’t hurt yourself.





:LOL:



Is English your second language?





:LOL:



You’ve yet to address what I’ve said, only cried about what you want to believe I implied.



Because I’ve done a bit more with my life than bitch about how bad it sucks over hear while posting that opinion from my parents house.



No you didn’t answer the question. The question was, “why does pride = belittling others or having to feel superior to them. You went on about how it’s the “alpha male” thing to do. Sorry, but that’s not answering the question.



You’ve yet to address “my words”. You just keep crying about what you want to think I’ve implied.


Finally, I forget how many posts down the road and you’re actually addressing something I’ve posted.
That’s a pretty sad way to derive pride, having to belittle or feel superior to others. I derive pride from several things, not much of it has to do with others. The feeling I derive from others less fortunate is pity and a hope that we could help improve their situation.




If it helps any, change “some” to “most” and I’m the one that said it.



You haven’t even been around long enough to know what I’m talking about, so really your characterization means squat to me.

:LOL:

The only real thing you had there was the one piece where I had a missing quote and it wasn't clear enough. Other than that, it's you trying to avoid accountability for your words, using smilies to make it look like you "got" me, and then use a bunch of ad hominems to back up your post.

Wow. :shake:

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 10:37 AM
:LOL:

The only real thing you had there was the one piece where I had a missing quote and it wasn't clear enough. Other than that, it's you trying to avoid accountability for your words, using smilies to make it look like you "got" me, and then use a bunch of ad hominems to back up your post.

Wow. :shake:

What of my words have I not addressed? Use specifics, if you can.
And since you’ve yet to be able to comprehend a simple straightforward question, your analysis of my intentions isn’t very compelling.

BucEyedPea
04-03-2008, 10:52 AM
:LOL: ...using smilies to make it look like you "got" me, and then use a bunch of ad hominems to back up your post.

You're just noticing that? That's his entire shtick?
Just call him RadarCon ...that'll be playin' his own game back.

irishjayhawk
04-03-2008, 10:53 AM
Okay, but what did any of that mean?

I'm talking about how Radar Chief says things and then runs away from their accountability. He said "I’ve yet to post a “stance”. How do you know what the “implications” of it are? Or is this your assumptions treading on logic again?."

But in earlier posts he's said things that can be taken as a stance. However, when you call him on it, he denies that you should ever read into his words or even that his words mean anything but what HE wants them to mean. So he has no accountability.

He says X but when you call him on it, he says that you're just making implications and assumptions and that's not really what he means. So he has zero accountability for his words.

See Radar's post I responded to above.

Don’t hurt yourself.

Disgruntled that I haven't taken the time to find the sources I said I'd get to. Okay, fine.





:LOL:

Ooooo, lookie, I posted a quote of his and then a quote from me and then a smilie face. I'm making you look Duuuuuuummmmmbbbbbbb.



Is English your second language?

That's fine. It didn't come out clear. But that happens to native speakers, but you know, it wouldn't be as good without an insult.



:LOL:

Same thing again.



You’ve yet to address what I’ve said, only cried about what you want to believe I implied.

This is the tactic I'm talking about. I didn't EXPLICITLY say it so you aren't addressing what I SAID.



Because I’ve done a bit more with my life than bitch about how bad it sucks over hear while posting that opinion from my parents house.

Hmmm, I wonder what this ad hominem proves? And what exactly does it address of my content:

"but apparently you don't ever imply anything with your questions and if they do leave room for implications, well that's just someone assuming which means you can't be held responsible for anything you say.

How do you know what we have is better? Is our health insurance system better than universal health care? Is the gap between the rich and the poor better than other places?

The opinion is far from true, no matter how much you wish it to be. "

He cries for specifics of others but never really gives specifics himself.



No you didn’t answer the question. The question was, “why does pride = belittling others or having to feel superior to them. You went on about how it’s the “alpha male” thing to do. Sorry, but that’s not answering the question.

Again, won't accept an answer. It has to be the answer he wants to hear, otherwise it's not an answer. It's really not even worth it to fight him anymore. Problem is he'll just declare victory. Oh well, I guess I can concede it to him so I can save some time.



You’ve yet to address “my words”. You just keep crying about what you want to think I’ve implied.

He refused to accept one sentence as text book ethnocentrism, for one. But you know, the accountability of the words is kinda the bigger issue here. He can't say anything he means. You cannot take meaning from his words unless he tells you the meanings.


Finally, I forget how many posts down the road and you’re actually addressing something I’ve posted.
That’s a pretty sad way to derive pride, having to belittle or feel superior to others. I derive pride from several things, not much of it has to do with others. The feeling I derive from others less fortunate is pity and a hope that we could help improve their situation.

What he's responding to doesn't even answer his beloved question about the derivation of pride. But he thinks it does.

"Because they want what we have, thus we must be above them. Again, who's to say we have a more favorable situation than some countries?"

Tell me, what do you think he means by a "sad way to derive pride" out of the above quote?




If it helps any, change “some” to “most” and I’m the one that said it.

Again, trying to construe opinion for fact.



You haven’t even been around long enough to know what I’m talking about, so really your characterization means squat to me.
He can't even avoid ad hominems when he's effing insulting. ROFL

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 10:54 AM
You're just noticing that's his entire shtick?

Only when stringing people along that have no other point than to argue.
I’m surprised you didn’t just call me a NeoCon and run away. ;)

irishjayhawk
04-03-2008, 10:55 AM
You're just noticing that's his entire shtick?

Sadly, he's got patteeu's caliber of wording and writing but a a1na2 caliber shtick.

It's sad. In fact, relating him to patteeu might be a disservice to patteeu.

BucEyedPea
04-03-2008, 10:57 AM
In fact, relating him to patteeu might be a disservice to patteeu.

I'd say so. Although I consider pat a more worthy opponent. He doesn't resort using smilies like a 5 year old.

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 11:00 AM
I'm talking about how Radar Chief says things and then runs away from their accountability. He said "I’ve yet to post a “stance”. How do you know what the “implications” of it are? Or is this your assumptions treading on logic again?."

But in earlier posts he's said things that can be taken as a stance. However, when you call him on it, he denies that you should ever read into his words or even that his words mean anything but what HE wants them to mean. So he has no accountability.

He says X but when you call him on it, he says that you're just making implications and assumptions and that's not really what he means. So he has zero accountability for his words.

See Radar's post I responded to above.



Disgruntled that I haven't taken the time to find the sources I said I'd get to. Okay, fine.





Ooooo, lookie, I posted a quote of his and then a quote from me and then a smilie face. I'm making you look Duuuuuuummmmmbbbbbbb.





That's fine. It didn't come out clear. But that happens to native speakers, but you know, it wouldn't be as good without an insult.





Same thing again.




This is the tactic I'm talking about. I didn't EXPLICITLY say it so you aren't addressing what I SAID.





Hmmm, I wonder what this ad hominem proves? And what exactly does it address of my content:

"but apparently you don't ever imply anything with your questions and if they do leave room for implications, well that's just someone assuming which means you can't be held responsible for anything you say.

How do you know what we have is better? Is our health insurance system better than universal health care? Is the gap between the rich and the poor better than other places?

The opinion is far from true, no matter how much you wish it to be. "

He cries for specifics of others but never really gives specifics himself.





Again, won't accept an answer. It has to be the answer he wants to hear, otherwise it's not an answer. It's really not even worth it to fight him anymore. Problem is he'll just declare victory. Oh well, I guess I can concede it to him so I can save some time.





He refused to accept one sentence as text book ethnocentrism, for one. But you know, the accountability of the words is kinda the bigger issue here. He can't say anything he means. You cannot take meaning from his words unless he tells you the meanings.




What he's responding to doesn't even answer his beloved question about the derivation of pride. But he thinks it does.

"Because they want what we have, thus we must be above them. Again, who's to say we have a more favorable situation than some countries?"

Tell me, what do you think he means by a "sad way to derive pride" out of the above quote?






Again, trying to construe opinion for fact.



He can't even avoid ad hominems when he's effing insulting. ROFL

You should’ve just called me a “big doody head” then ran away crying. That seems to be your "shtick".

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 11:02 AM
It's sad. In fact, relating him to patteeu might be a disservice to patteeu.

This is true. Pat is a much better speaker than I could be.
But I am honored at being grouped with him anyway, even if you think that’s some sort of insult.

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 11:04 AM
I'd say so. Although I consider pat a more worthy opponent. He doesn't resort using smilies like a 5 year old.

Right, cause, like, adults demagogue each other as NeoCon’s or Liberals rather than address valid points when they’re made. ROFL

BucEyedPea
04-03-2008, 11:06 AM
Think I'll use my new smiley again!http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/84/brownshirtpd5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 11:08 AM
Think I'll use my new smiley again!http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/84/brownshirtpd5.gif (http://imageshack.us)


Cool, I'll use one too.

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 11:13 AM
Here’s a question for you two. Why do you need to see a discussion as a competition? Maybe if you’d think of it more as an entertaining way to pass time, you’d become a bit less emotionally involved. :shrug: Just a thought.

Logical
04-03-2008, 11:36 AM
We've traded friendly PMs. Now we'll trade friendly public messages.

No problem, typicallly I reserve PMs for discussing someones medical problems (mine included), exchanging phone numbers, addresses, etc. For the most part there is nothing I want to say in a PM that I don't want in a post and vice versa.

We are all good

Logical
04-03-2008, 11:47 AM
Really? Got any statistics, survey info, to back that up.



Sorry, but no it isn’t. That you can’t distinguish between “pride” and “ethnocentrism” doesn't surpise me any more though.

Ethnocentrism (you believe you are superior or the best)

MYTH 4. Americans believe the US doesn’t need improvement compared to other countries; it is the greatest country in the world.

TRUTH:
Wrong again. I'll only cite the statistics here.

USA Ranking on Adult Literacy Scale: #9
(#1 Sweden and #2 Norway)- OECD

USA Ranking on Healthcare Quality Index: #37
(#1 France and #2 Italy)- World Health Organization 2003

USA Ranking of Student Reading Ability: #12
(#1 Finland and #2 South Korea)- OECD PISA 2003

USA Ranking of Student Problem Solving Ability: #26
(#1 South Korea and #2 Finland)- OECD PISA 2003

USA Ranking on Student Mathematics Ability: # 24
(#1 Hong Kong and #2 Finland)- OECD PISA 2003

USA Ranking of Student Science Ability: #19
(#1 Finland and #2 Japan)- OECD PISA 2003

USA Ranking on Women's Rights Scale: #17
(#1 Sweden and #2 Norway)- World Economic Forum Report

USA Position on Timeline of Gay Rights Progress: # 6 (1997)
(#1 Sweden 1987 and #2 Norway 1993)- Vexen

USA Ranking on Life Expectancy: #29
(#1 Japan and #2 Hong Kong)- UN Human Development Report 2005

USA Ranking on Journalistic Press Freedom Index: #32
(#1 Finland, Iceland, Norway and the Netherlands tied)- Reporters Without Borders 2005

USA Ranking on Political Corruption Index: #17
(#1 Iceland and #2 Finland)- Transparency International 2005

USA Ranking on Quality of Life Survey: #13
(#1 Ireland and #2 Switzerland)- The Economist Magazine ...Wikipedia "Celtic Tiger" if you still have your doubts.

USA Ranking on Environmental Sustainability Index: #45
(#1 Finland and #2 Norway)- Yale University ESI 2005

USA Ranking on Overall Currency Strength: #3 (US Dollar)
(#1 UK pound sterling and #2 European Union euro)- FTSE 2006....the dollar is now a liability, so many banks worldwide have planned to switch to euro

USA Ranking on Infant Mortality Rate: #32
(#1 Sweden and #2 Finland)- Save the Children Report 2006

USA Ranking on Human Development Index (GDP, education, etc.): #10
(#1 Norway and #2 Iceland)- UN Human Development Report 2005

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 11:59 AM
Ethnocentrism (you believe you are superior or the best)

Change “you” to “you or your group” and I’ll agree but that’s not pride.
And thank you for posting an actual reference to what you’re talking about, I was beginning to think that was a lost trait, but I’m a bit confused on what you mean by that. That the US of A isn’t the best at everything? I don’t disagree, but I can still have pride in my country.
I can have a lot of pride in my son even though I know he’s not the fastest, strongest, smartest or best looking, well ok maybe he is the best looking but that’s because he gets his looks from Mrs. Radar ;), 3 y.o. that ever walked the planet.

Logical
04-03-2008, 12:13 PM
Change “you” to “you or your group” and I’ll agree but that’s not pride.
And thank you for posting an actual reference to what you’re talking about, I was beginning to think that was a lost trait, but I’m a bit confused on what you mean by that. That the US of A isn’t the best at everything? I don’t disagree, but I can still have pride in my country.
I can have a lot of pride in my son even though I know he’s not the fastest, strongest, smartest or best looking, well ok maybe he is the best looking but that’s because he gets his looks from Mrs. Radar ;), 3 y.o. that ever walked the planet.


I think we have a giant pissing contest of the misuse of a word.

Pride should mean you have done something that warrants it. You raising a fine son is a great example because (hopefully) for the most part you are responsible.

You are not for the most part responsible for the US and it's position in the world, hell Bill Gates isn't (though he has made a larger financial and technological contribution than most in the modern era, but even he really cannot take credit for the US and it's position and power.

I believe it makes sense to feel fortunate to live in the US but you should be aware there are better places in the world to live, that is self awareness and wards off ethnocentrism. Yes we are the most powerful country in the world (that is undisputed) and since you served in the military it would makes sense that you take pride in that, you were part of the reason at one time.

In conclusion the poll probably would have been better if it asked "Are you Happy that you are an American" or Do you feel fortunate that you are an American". But then this thread would not be 200 posts long.

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 01:25 PM
I think we have a giant pissing contest of the misuse of a word.

Yea, that’s pretty much what it devolved from.
Though I don’t think it’s a “misuse”, I’m fine with the poll the way it’s worded.

Chief Henry
04-03-2008, 02:06 PM
WHo are the three people that voted for "Not usually" and who are the three people
that voted for "Never" ?

Radar Chief
04-03-2008, 02:12 PM
WHo are the three people that voted for "Not usually" and who are the three people
that voted for "Never" ?

Does it really matter? To those 6 people the other 104 are just drunken rednecks taking pride in their home solely as an expression of machismo.
Or so I gather from the responses I’ve gotten here.

Duck Dog
04-03-2008, 02:18 PM
WHo are the three people that voted for "Not usually" and who are the three people
that voted for "Never" ?

If it were a public poll they would of abstained from voting. Probably the same cowards that are in this pic.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/duckdog/Antiscum.bmp

Adept Havelock
04-03-2008, 02:20 PM
Does it really matter? To those 6 people the other 104 are just drunken rednecks taking pride in their home solely as an expression of machismo.
Or so I gather from the responses I’ve gotten here.

While that certainly may be true for some, I think there is also more than a few grains of truth in this statement:


The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.


The distinction can be difficult to see in some cases, but I believe it to be an important one.

If it were a public poll they would of abstained from voting. Probably the same cowards that are in this pic.


Granted, we also have idiots like those carrying that sign who make it very easy to draw that distinction and which side of it they are on.

BucEyedPea
04-03-2008, 02:58 PM
To the Christians: I thought pride was a sin?
I know it's one of the 7 deadly sins or capital vices in RCC because these lead to other bigger sins. Protestants may differ. Isn't that how Lucifer fell from heaven...from pride?

They are:
Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy and Pride

They also have 7 corresponding virtues too:
Chastity, Temperance, Charity, Diligence, Patience, Kindness, and Humility.

Pride ( also referred to as hubris, vanity) is supposed to be considered the most deadly of the deadly vices because many other sins stem from it. Pride defined here as excessive love of self and contempt for others. ( Not as in being proud of one's children if they've done well.) Seems to me the belief in American exceptionalism could fall into this category.

Rain Man
04-03-2008, 03:00 PM
To the Christians: I thought pride was a sin?
I know it's one of the 7 deadly sins or capital vices in RCC because these lead to other bigger sins. Protestants may differ. Isn't that how Lucifer fell from heaven...from pride?

They are:
Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy and Pride

They also have 7 corresponding virtues too:
Chastity, Temperance, Charity, Diligence, Patience, Kindness, and Humility.

Pride ( also referred to as hubris, vanity) is supposed to be considered the most deadly of the deadly vices because many other sins stem from it. Pride defined here as excessive love of self and contempt for others. ( Not as in being proud of one's children if they've done well.) Seems to me the belief in American exceptionalism could fall into this category.


I think they replaced them with some new ones last month. Now you can lust and be proud all you want.

bowener
04-03-2008, 03:06 PM
I think they replaced them with some new ones last month. Now you can lust and be proud all you want.

:hmmm:

:grovel:? nlm that!

Now I can :rockon::whackit::bang::toast:PBJ:hump::spank::bong::dom: all at once if I want!!

Not :evil: as long as I dont pollute and am poor!!

BucEyedPea
04-03-2008, 03:13 PM
I think they replaced them with some new ones last month. Now you can lust and be proud all you want.
ROFL
I saw an article about that too. But I think they added and didn't take anything away.

Jenson71
04-03-2008, 03:13 PM
No, that was just media sensationalism.

Logical
04-03-2008, 03:31 PM
WHo are the three people that voted for "Not usually" and who are the three people
that voted for "Never" ?
I would guess IJH, meMyselfi, and Frankie were not usually. Hamas was probably never the other two nevers are not easily identifiable.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-03-2008, 04:45 PM
I'm neither proud nor am I ashamed to be American. It's just a matter of happenstance and geography that I was born in the United States. I'm definitely glad that I live in the US as opposed to Botswana, but there's nothing about being American that makes me feel I'm instrinsically any better than anyone else.

That's solid.

Rain Man
04-03-2008, 04:57 PM
ROFL
I saw an article about that too. But I think they added and didn't take anything away.

That's not going to please the Libertarians.

Duck Dog
04-03-2008, 05:26 PM
You know, it makes a guy wonder if some of you have ever taken pride in anything. Anything at all. Your family perhaps?

After all it's just happenstance that you were born into your family.

irishjayhawk
04-03-2008, 07:06 PM
You know, it makes a guy wonder if some of you have ever taken pride in anything. Anything at all. Your family perhaps?

After all it's just happenstance that you were born into your family.

Poor example. Another example of "happenstance."

Now, getting the dream job you wanted after working really hard. That's pride.

Seeing your son succeed. That's pride.

But your existence in a country, in a particular family, of a particular heritage, is just "happenstance" as you didn't have any control over it.

irishjayhawk
04-03-2008, 07:08 PM
I would guess IJH, meMyselfi, and Frankie were not usually. Hamas was probably never the other two nevers are not easily identifiable.

Actually, I voted for usually. :eek: I know, surprising. But HolmeZz was actually the one who characterized the reason why I voted that one.

Logical
04-03-2008, 07:13 PM
Let me just comment on the poll results, I find it pretty indicative of American Ethnocentrism that 93% claim to usually take pride in America. Especially given how intellectually diverse this BB is and the wide range of political philosophies. Well that or about 90% of the BB users don't really understand the meaning of Pride (I actually suspect it leans more towards the latter)

That only 7% said rarely or not at all should be cause for the Super Patriots to rejoice.

irishjayhawk
04-03-2008, 07:18 PM
Let me just comment on the poll results, I find it pretty indicative of American Ethnocentrism that 93% claim to usually take pride in America. Especially given how intellectually diverse this BB is and the wide range of political philosophies. Well that or about 90% of the BB users don't really understand the meaning of Pride (I actually suspect it leans more towards the latter)

That only 7% said rarely or not at all should be cause for the Super Patriots to rejoice.

How would you define pride? Out of curiosity.

Jenson71
04-03-2008, 07:21 PM
I voted always. I'm proud to be an American. I think the structure of our government is very good. I think the people are good, and I'm proud of our accomplishments. I like how we are a traditional nation with one eye on our past, yet the other eye progressively looking towards the future. I'm proud of the way people have fought for this country against evil, and for freedoms and civil rights. I'm proud of how we have given the world Jazz, Westerns, and Baseball.

Logical
04-03-2008, 07:31 PM
How would you define pride? Out of curiosity.

Pride is the emotion you feel for an accomplishment you are responsible for or had a significant part in achieving.

Some people might say they feel pride in America's power in the world (that is more bragging rights, not pride)