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DaKCMan AP
04-02-2008, 06:59 AM
Kiper says key to Chiefs draft is how they feel about Croyle


ESPN’s draft guru Mel Kiper Jr. thinks if Boston College quarterback Matt Ryan is still on the board when the Chiefs make their first-round pick later this month, he’d be a great pick.

But then again, Kiper said he really doesn’t know how the Chiefs feel about Brodie Croyle.

“Croyle is a decent quarterback. Nice arm,” Kiper said in a conference call. “Carl Peterson drafted him. (But) if I’m Carl Peterson, I have to ask myself: ‘Is Brodie the guy who can take us to a Super Bowl?’

“I personally feel that Matt Ryan can be the guy to take a team to a Super Bowl.”

Needless to say, Kiper is very high on Ryan.

“I put him in that Peyton Manning-Ben Roethlisberger-Philip Rivers class,” Kiper said. “The throw (Ryan) made to beat Virginia Tech…he can elevate a team.”


So what will happen on draft day?


“Well, (Ryan) could go at No. 1, he could go at No. 3, he could go to the Chiefs,” Kiper said. “At worst, he would end up at No. 8 to Baltimore. Baltimore won’t hesitate if he’s around at No. 8.


“But for the Chiefs, it all hinges on how they feel about Brodie Croyle.”


And if the Chiefs are absolutely sold on Croyle, Kiper sees the Chiefs working on the offensive line at No. 5.


“If Jake Long (offensive tackle, Michigan) is there, he’d be a good pick,” Kiper said. “You’ve got (offensive tackle) Ryan Clady out of Boise State. They’ve got some holes on the offensive line to fill.”


Actually, in Kiper’s latest mock draft, he has the Chiefs taking Branden Albert (OT/G) from Virginia.


But Kiper acknowledges that a lot can change from now until the draft, including his final mock draft.


Deep at corner


Kiper thinks it will be a deep draft for cornerbacks, and one of those corners he believes will go high is Kansas’ Aqib Talib.


“I’ve liked him from the start,” said Kiper, who has Talib going in the top 10.


Want him back?


Hey, great news: The Chiefs can get kicker Justin Medlock back.
The agent for Medlock told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch that he has asked the Rams to release Medlock now that Josh Brown has been signed.
The Rams apparently won’t release him but have said that Medlock is free to seek a trade.


Likes Royals


It’s not just Detroit skipper Jim Leyland who thinks the Royals aren’t that far away from being a contender.


“Kansas City’s going to surprise some people,” Twins first baseman Justin Morneau said recently. “They were starting to play well in the second half last year. They have some good players over there, and they keep adding a veteran here, a veteran there to help those guys.”

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/556942.html

Deberg_1990
04-02-2008, 07:03 AM
The Chiefs are NOT sold on Croye 100%. The writing has been on the wall for awhile.

EyePod
04-02-2008, 07:43 AM
The Chiefs are NOT sold on Croye 100%. The writing has been on the wall for awhile.

I agree. I think that they haven't bailed on him either. We really don't know what we're getting with him. We haven't seen him in a good situation because of our terrible O-Line. Just having LJ back next season will give him a hand, because I'm sure that most teams relaxed on the run defense when playing us (not that Kolby was terrible, but with our O-Line....). I really just want to see him behind a semblance of a real line... hell, even a mediocre one!

Easy 6
04-02-2008, 07:47 AM
Newsflash for Melly Mel...Roethlisberger & Rivers are NOT in a class with Manning.

Monty
04-02-2008, 07:59 AM
I agree. I think that they haven't bailed on him either. We really don't know what we're getting with him. We haven't seen him in a good situation because of our terrible O-Line. Just having LJ back next season will give him a hand, because I'm sure that most teams relaxed on the run defense when playing us (not that Kolby was terrible, but with our O-Line....). I really just want to see him behind a semblance of a real line... hell, even a mediocre one!

I'd also like to see him behind even a mediocre line, but my thought is that even then we'd be largely unimpressed. Croyle has been with the team long enough to show that he's a go to guy and as of today, he really hasn't done much with the opportunity......line issues/LJ gone or not. If Ryan was the BPA at #5, I'd pull that trigger. If not, find another QB later, but IMO Croyle may do ok, but if the goal is to win a championship, the odds would be better with someone else under center.

milkman
04-02-2008, 08:09 AM
I have no rooting interest in Brodie Croyle, other than a Chiefs fan that wants to see a Chiefs QB succeed.

But anyone that thinks that Croyle has had an opportunity to show anything is a ****ing moron.

biggunns
04-02-2008, 08:12 AM
If Herm was not such an idiot he would have started Croyle all season last year and he would know enough about him to make a good decision, but no Herm the idiot started the QB that sucked and always has sucked. If Ryan is there we have to pick him.:cuss:

StcChief
04-02-2008, 08:12 AM
2008 Croyle's make or break year IMO. If the OLine gels, LJ stays healthy

Reerun_KC
04-02-2008, 08:15 AM
If Herm was not such an idiot he would have started Croyle all season last year and he would know enough about him to make a good decision, but no Herm the idiot started the QB that sucked and always has sucked. If Ryan is there we have to pick him.:cuss:
But what makes you think that this band of ****ing retards can coach Ryan on a NFL level?

Regardless of QB, The coaching staff sucks so much ass, they would totally destroy any successful NFL team, So drafting Ryan really doesnt matter much here.

John_Wayne
04-02-2008, 08:16 AM
"I put him in that Peyton Manning-Ben Roethlisberger-Philip Rivers class"

What?!! On a scale of 1 - 10, Manning is a 10, Big Ben is an 8 and Rivers is a 6. So, what "class" is Mel talking about? That sure is a BIG class. That's like saying that Ryan is a QB in the mold of QB's like Brett Favre and Gus Ferrotte.

cardken
04-02-2008, 08:16 AM
In sharp contrast to the article written in the Star a week or so ago, Croyle is'nt as convinced of the starting job as discribed. A friend of mine sells/leases homes and last week Croyle an wife were in there looking to sell their current place and looking to rent, as his wife put it "Not sure, of what is going to happen." I thought was interesting:doh!:

Reerun_KC
04-02-2008, 08:17 AM
In sharp contrast to the article written in the Star a week or so ago, Croyle is'nt as convinced of the starting job as discribed. A friend of mine sells/leases homes and last week Croyle an wife were in there looking to sell their current place and looking to rent, as his wife put it "Not sure, of what is going to happen." I thought was interesting:doh!:
Cant blame them... Who would want to play for Herm?

StcChief
04-02-2008, 08:27 AM
In sharp contrast to the article written in the Star a week or so ago, Croyle is'nt as convinced of the starting job as discribed. A friend of mine sells/leases homes and last week Croyle an wife were in there looking to sell their current place and looking to rent, as his wife put it "Not sure, of what is going to happen." I thought was interesting:doh!:
good luck in this market, unless he's dumping it.

Duck Dog
04-02-2008, 08:30 AM
Carl drafted Croyle, he won't draft another QB. He'll draft Croyle an OL.

Reerun_KC
04-02-2008, 08:36 AM
ROFLROFLROFLROFL
Carl drafted Croyle, he won't draft another QB. He'll draft Croyle an OL.

Hoover
04-02-2008, 08:37 AM
We don't have to pick a QB this year.

If Croyle sucks ass this year guess what? We will be back in the top five and actually have some good young talent for the QB we draft next year. If Croyle pans out great, we will probably be drafting in late teens or 20s where we can grad another lineman or DB.

Am I the only one who sees it this way. Grab a OT or DT and call it a victory in Round one.

milkman
04-02-2008, 08:41 AM
We don't have to pick a QB this year.

If Croyle sucks ass this year guess what? We will be back in the top five and actually have some good young talent for the QB we draft next year. If Croyle pans out great, we will probably be drafting in late teens or 20s where we can grad another lineman or DB.

Am I the only one who sees it this way. Grab a OT or DT and call it a victory in Round one.

Looking at it right now, the QB class next year will be worse than this year.

There very liklely won't be any top 5 pick QBs.

DaKCMan AP
04-02-2008, 08:42 AM
We don't have to pick a QB this year.

If Croyle sucks ass this year guess what? We will be back in the top five and actually have some good young talent for the QB we draft next year. If Croyle pans out great, we will probably be drafting in late teens or 20s where we can grad another lineman or DB.

Am I the only one who sees it this way. Grab a OT or DT and call it a victory in Round one.

No, you're not. If Croyle works out, great. If not, I'd rather make a run at Tebow/Stafford/Bradford/whoever steps up next year than Matt Ryan this year. Still, I wouldn't be opposed to grabbing Brohm if he's still there in round 2.

DaKCMan AP
04-02-2008, 08:43 AM
Looking at it right now, the QB class next year will be worse than this year.

There very liklely won't be any top 5 pick QBs.

Same was said a year ago about the '08 draft class. Ryan wasn't a top 5 pick going into 2007.

milkman
04-02-2008, 08:47 AM
Same was said a year ago about the '08 draft class. Ryan wasn't a top 5 pick going into 2007.

That's why I qualified it with "Looking at it right now".

I would, however, contend that Ryan is considered top 5 is because of the fact that he's just happens to be the best of a mediocre class.

DaKCMan AP
04-02-2008, 08:52 AM
I would, however, contend that Ryan is considered top 5 is because of the fact that he's just happens to be the best of a mediocre class.

Agreed.

JBucc
04-02-2008, 08:55 AM
I really liked Bradford last year. We'll see if he improves or slips back like McCoy did.

Frazod
04-02-2008, 09:04 AM
Newsflash for Melly Mel...Roethlisberger & Rivers are NOT in a class with Manning.

No shit. I'm no Manning fan, but seriously, neither one of those overrated clowns could hold his jock.

JBucc
04-02-2008, 09:06 AM
I'm thinking he meant Eli Manning since they all were drafted the same year.

Hoover
04-02-2008, 09:15 AM
No, you're not. If Croyle works out, great. If not, I'd rather make a run at Tebow/Stafford/Bradford/whoever steps up next year than Matt Ryan this year. Still, I wouldn't be opposed to grabbing Brohm if he's still there in round 2.

There will be QBs next year there always are, plus I'm not against grabbing a QB this year, I agree about Brohm. We need the 5th pick to contribute right away and make a huge impact. Thats why I want a DT or OT.

crazycoffey
04-02-2008, 09:33 AM
I still say it's smoke and mirrors about ryan. front office making sure he goes before hand to help ensure a good Lineman is there (either side of the ball)

Reerun_KC
04-02-2008, 09:34 AM
That's why I qualified it with "Looking at it right now".

I would, however, contend that Ryan is considered top 5 is because of the fact that he's just happens to be the best of a mediocre class.
Ah the Chiefs of the 90's

Chiefnj2
04-02-2008, 09:38 AM
Same was said a year ago about the '08 draft class. Ryan wasn't a top 5 pick going into 2007.


Ryan wasn't, but Brohm was and Woodson was thought of as a top prospect.

If you think you are going to need a QBOTF then take one this year and if Croyle is looking atrocious then play the new kid the end of the year. If you wait until next year the guy will probably sit most of the 2009 season as he is adjusting to the NFL. You are looking at 2010 before your new QBOTF is getting a decent look.

TEX
04-02-2008, 09:39 AM
But what makes you think that this band of ****ing retards can coach Ryan on a NFL level?

Regardless of QB, The coaching staff sucks so much ass, they would totally destroy any successful NFL team, So drafting Ryan really doesnt matter much here.

Yes it does because Ryan will outlast the current staff. If he's available, and Long is gone, I'd draft him. The Chiefs could easily be the worst team in the NFL next season. Get the Franchise QB now and build around future top 5 picks. The Chiefs owe Brodie Croyle nothing, he's a fragile 3rd round draft pick. IMHO, he's not even close to a franchise QB.

Reerun_KC
04-02-2008, 09:42 AM
Yes it does because Ryan will outlast the current staff. If he's available, and Long is gone, I'd draft Ryan. The Chiefs could easily be the worst team in the NFL next season. Get the Franchise QB now and build. The Chiefs owe Brodie Croyle nothing, he's a fragile 3rd round draft pick. IMHO, he's not even close to a franchise QB.

And were sure that Ryan will outlast this coaching staff that has a history of going through many QB's per season? A coach that has a history of pathetic OL play?

We better draft Jesus at QB, it is going to take a miracle to keep them healthy.

DaKCMan AP
04-02-2008, 09:47 AM
We better draft Jesus at QB, it is going to take a miracle to keep them healthy.

Tebow wont be available until 2009 or 2010.

milkman
04-02-2008, 09:48 AM
Tebow wont be available until 2009 or 2010.

Tebow?

I thought Jake Long was the second coming.

el borracho
04-02-2008, 10:00 AM
Tebow?

I thought Jake Long was the second coming.

Can Jake Long capture television programming to hard disk storage for later viewing ("time shifting"), provide an electronic television programming schedule and recording options based on that schedule? I think not!

Frankie
04-02-2008, 10:07 AM
We don't have to pick a QB this year.

If Croyle sucks ass this year guess what? We will be back in the top five and actually have some good young talent for the QB we draft next year. If Croyle pans out great, we will probably be drafting in late teens or 20s where we can grad another lineman or DB.

Am I the only one who sees it this way. Grab a OT or DT and call it a victory in Round one.

I totally agree, though I am more woried about the O-line than the D-line.

CosmicPal
04-02-2008, 10:08 AM
Honestly, as stubborn as CP is, I don't see him drafting Ryan. Ryan could turn out to be HOF QB and take his team to 4 Super Bowls, but since CP already drafted Croyle then drafting Ryan would mean that he made a mistake on Croyle, and gawd knows he doesn't want to admit he made a mistake. Bastard. :D

Frankie
04-02-2008, 10:09 AM
Looking at it right now, the QB class next year will be worse than this year.

There very liklely won't be any top 5 pick QBs.

Last year this time Brohm was "the only good QB in next year's class." I bet there will be more than a couple of names in next years QB class.

Tribal Warfare
04-02-2008, 10:10 AM
There very liklely won't be any top 5 pick QBs.

Their isn't one this year

Brock
04-02-2008, 10:10 AM
i think Herm is going to make this decision.

Frankie
04-02-2008, 10:10 AM
Same was said a year ago about the '08 draft class. Ryan wasn't a top 5 pick going into 2007.

Great minds....

Frankie
04-02-2008, 10:12 AM
Newsflash for Melly Mel...Roethlisberger & Rivers are NOT in a class with Manning.

ROFL
Exactly my reaction when I read the article.

DaneMcCloud
04-02-2008, 10:14 AM
Newsflash for Melly Mel...Roethlisberger & Rivers are NOT in a class with Manning.

"I put him in that Peyton Manning-Ben Roethlisberger-Philip Rivers class"

What?!! On a scale of 1 - 10, Manning is a 10, Big Ben is an 8 and Rivers is a 6. So, what "class" is Mel talking about? That sure is a BIG class. That's like saying that Ryan is a QB in the mold of QB's like Brett Favre and Gus Ferrotte.

No shit. I'm no Manning fan, but seriously, neither one of those overrated clowns could hold his jock.

I truly believe that Kiper was quoted incorrectly by the local drunk, Jeff Flanagan.

Kiper may be many things but there's no way in hell he'd put Peyton Manning in the same class as Philip Rivers. Eli? Sure. Peyton? No way.

Typical poor KC Star reporting.

Frankie
04-02-2008, 10:14 AM
Ryan wasn't, but Brohm was and Woodson was thought of as a top prospect.

If you think you are going to need a QBOTF then take one this year and if Croyle is looking atrocious then play the new kid the end of the year. If you wait until next year the guy will probably sit most of the 2009 season as he is adjusting to the NFL. You are looking at 2010 before your new QBOTF is getting a decent look.

None of that will matter if we don't address the O-line at the top of our list, THIS YEAR.

PHOG
04-02-2008, 10:15 AM
Could it be that Croyle is a big part of the plan? Are herm(we need a smilie for this clown) and CeePee really sold on him, or are they merely offering him up as a sacrificial lamb?

Could the plan be to let Croyle stink it up this year so the Chiefs ARE the worst team in the NFL, and so locking up the 1st overall pick in the '09 draft? They could possibly be the worst without Croyle flopping.

Could Tebow declare for the draft next year after another record setting performance in the '08 college season?

:hmmm:
















Nah, I doubt it. :shake:

suds79
04-02-2008, 10:20 AM
I'm starting to lean towards taking Ryan.

Here me out.

Now could Ryan end up a bust? Who knows. But you could say that about any player the Chiefs draft at #5. So one thing we can all agree on,..... The Chiefs must hit on this pick or it's over.

Having said that, here's the way I see it.

Say the Chiefs draft Ryan. Croyle will still start all of next year. If he flops or gets injured, then we have Ryan there. If Croyle turns it on, Great! Then we'd be in Clevelands position where we have two good QBs and teams are always looking for a QB.

I personally feel that next to O-line and probably corner, there isn't another need greater than QB on this team. And let us not forget that QB is certainly the most important position by a long shot.

We'll still have the rest of the draft to address the O-line... That would be no different than if we drafted say Dorsey or Ellis at #5 who are two real possibilities.

Chiefnj2
04-02-2008, 10:21 AM
None of that will matter if we don't address the O-line at the top of our list, THIS YEAR.


Like it or not, 3/5ths of the OL might be set with McIntosh, Waters and Niswanger. Even if round 1 isn't an OL, there is no reason why they couldn't find a RT and RG with the remaining 9 picks.

el borracho
04-02-2008, 10:21 AM
You know, I can't even imagine a winning season in '08; my only hope is that this is, finally, Carl and Herm's last year.

Tribal Warfare
04-02-2008, 10:22 AM
If Croyle turns it on, Great! Then we'd be in Clevelands position where we have two good QBs and teams are always looking for a QB.



Great, then we blew a top 5 pick on a backup

Brock
04-02-2008, 10:26 AM
Croyle is a third round QB drafted by the Chiefs of all teams. He's facing long, long odds.

suds79
04-02-2008, 10:26 AM
Great, then we blew a top 5 pick on a backup

Not when you can trade him for another high pick next year.

Plus we'd have a legit starting QB under that scenario. What's to be unhappy about?

Don't forget that it's pretty much all about the QB in this league. Once you find that star QB, it's pretty much just a matter of time before you get the supporting cast to go to the SB.

milkman
04-02-2008, 10:29 AM
Last year this time Brohm was "the only good QB in next year's class." I bet there will be more than a couple of names in next years QB class.

The only reason Ryan is talked about as a potential top 5 this year is that there aren't any real franchise QBs in this draft.

If there were any real franchise QBs in this draft, Ryan would liklely be discussed as a late first round pick, at best.

Easy 6
04-02-2008, 10:30 AM
I truly believe that Kiper was quoted incorrectly by the local drunk, Jeff Flanagan.

Kiper may be many things but there's no way in hell he'd put Peyton Manning in the same class as Philip Rivers. Eli? Sure. Peyton? No way.

Typical poor KC Star reporting.

Your probably right, i REALLY dont have the highest opinion of Mel...but even he cant be that dumb.

Tribal Warfare
04-02-2008, 10:30 AM
Not when you can trade him for another high pick next year.





THIS YEAR, KC can get a top DT Dorsey/Ellis that would start day one. for a top 5 pick, I want a John Elway franchise QB not a QB that might develop to be good/solid QB .

DaneMcCloud
04-02-2008, 10:34 AM
THIS YEAR, KC can get a top DT Dorsey/Ellis that would start day one. for a top 5 pick, I want a John Elway franchise QB not a QB that might develop to be good/solid QB .

Good luck with the Elway thing.

I'd be happy with a Jim Kelly/Troy Aikman/Donovan McNabb-type QB. A player with solid tools and strong leadership.

Elway was a freak of nature with a combination of talent not likely ever to be duplicated on the football field.

CosmicPal
04-02-2008, 10:39 AM
Elway was a freak of nature with a combination of talent not likely ever to be duplicated on the football field.

Never, ever, say anything good about that fuggen man on this board again! He is not to be respected in any way- not on this board! You want to say nice things about him, then do it behind your back, but he and that gawdforsaken kicker should never be mentioned on this board with any ounce of respect or admiration.

:D

suds79
04-02-2008, 10:44 AM
THIS YEAR, KC can get a top DT Dorsey/Ellis that would start day one. for a top 5 pick, I want a John Elway franchise QB not a QB that might develop to be good/solid QB .

Yes they would start from day one. And I think they'll be really good players. But you're talking about a DT compared to a QB. Are you serious?

Example: Albert Haynesworth (arguably the best DT in the game) could never have the impact or lead a team to the SB (that is the point right) more so than a Tony Romo (good QB but certainly not the best in the game) could.

Why? Because no position has the importance or impact that QB does.

DaKCMan AP
04-02-2008, 10:44 AM
I'm starting to lean towards taking Ryan.

Here me out.

Now could Ryan end up a bust? Who knows. But you could say that about any player the Chiefs draft at #5. So one thing we can all agree on,..... The Chiefs must hit on this pick or it's over.

Having said that, here's the way I see it.

Say the Chiefs draft Ryan. Croyle will still start all of next year. If he flops or gets injured, then we have Ryan there. If Croyle turns it on, Great! Then we'd be in Clevelands position where we have two good QBs and teams are always looking for a QB.

I personally feel that next to O-line and probably corner, there isn't another need greater than QB on this team. And let us not forget that QB is certainly the most important position by a long shot.

We'll still have the rest of the draft to address the O-line... That would be no different than if we drafted say Dorsey or Ellis at #5 who are two real possibilities.

Here's the problem with your Cleveland analogy:

1. The Browns drafted stud OT Joe Thomas #3 overall before grabbing Brady Quinn.

2. The Browns did not spend a top-5 pick on Quinn. They traded back up into the bottom of the 1st round to get him - and he was the 2nd QB off the board.

3. The Browns have not received anything in return (players/picks) for Quinn or Anderson.

Mile High Mania
04-02-2008, 10:45 AM
Good luck with the Elway thing.

I'd be happy with a Jim Kelly/Troy Aikman/Donovan McNabb-type QB. A player with solid tools and strong leadership.

Elway was a freak of nature with a combination of talent not likely ever to be duplicated on the football field.

Well said... question with Kiper's comment though. How are Ben and Rivers in Peyton's "class at QB". Hell, how is Rivers in Ben's "class"?

crazycoffey
04-02-2008, 10:45 AM
But what makes you think that this band of ****ing retards can coach Ryan on a NFL level?


The same thing that makes me think you can fly an airplane.....





:p

Sure-Oz
04-02-2008, 10:46 AM
We draft Ryan, Croyle has no chance probably

suds79
04-02-2008, 10:48 AM
Here's the problem with your Cleveland analogy:

1. The Browns drafted stud OT Joe Thomas #3 overall before grabbing Brady Quinn.

2. The Browns did not spend a top-5 pick on Quinn. They traded back up into the bottom of the 1st round to get him - and he was the 2nd QB off the board.

3. The Browns have not received anything in return (players/picks) for Quinn or Anderson.

# 1 - I'd love to have a Joe Thomas also but the closest thing (and still a little bit behind) is Jake Long who seemly will be gone.

# 2 - Personally I don't care what means we have to use to get that next great QB. Just as long as we get him. It's a risk but playing it safe for years hasn't gotten us anywhere that's for sure.

# 3 - That's Cleveland's choice thus far.

milkman
04-02-2008, 10:49 AM
Well said... question with Kiper's comment though. How are Ben and Rivers in Peyton's "class at QB". Hell, how is Rivers in Ben's "class"?

The comparison to Peyton has already been addressed.

It's likely he mean't Eli.

But Rivers and Rothlisberger are in the same class.

Both have been somewhat inconsistent, but both still have the potential to be consistently very good QBs.

suds79
04-02-2008, 10:50 AM
We draft Ryan, Croyle has no chance probably

Then he's not a competitor and we definitely don't want him as our starting QB.

Derrick Anderson battled through it.

suds79
04-02-2008, 10:52 AM
The comparison to Peyton has already been addressed.

It's likely he mean't Eli.

But Rivers and Rothlisberger are in the same class.

Both have been somewhat inconsistent, but both still have the potential to be consistently very good QBs.

Furthermore, if Ryan is in the same class as those guys, (2 SBs and one AFC championship) then we'd be crazy to pass him up.

That's too big of an upgrade.

OnTheWarpath58
04-02-2008, 10:53 AM
Not when you can trade him for another high pick next year.

Plus we'd have a legit starting QB under that scenario. What's to be unhappy about?

Don't forget that it's pretty much all about the QB in this league. Once you find that star QB, it's pretty much just a matter of time before you get the supporting cast to go to the SB.

You're smoking some serious shit if you think that we'd get ANYWHERE NEAR decent value for Ryan if we tried to trade him.

You MIGHT find someone who willing to give up a 2nd or 3rd for him. A 1st is absolutely out of the question.

That's taking it in the ass for the 5th overall pick.

Easy 6
04-02-2008, 10:55 AM
Then he's not a competitor and we definitely don't want him as our starting QB.

Derrick Anderson battled through it.

You make a good point here.

On the other hand, if we take a QB #1 the pressure to get him in there might make it very hard to give Brodie a good shot with the (partially) rebuilt O.

DaKCMan AP
04-02-2008, 10:56 AM
Furthermore, if Ryan is in the same class as those guys, (2 SBs and one AFC championship) then we'd be crazy to pass him up.

That's too big of an upgrade.

I guess if Ryan is in the same class as Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Rex Grossman (2 SBs and a SB loss) then we'd be crazy to pass him up.

suds79
04-02-2008, 10:56 AM
You're smoking some serious shit if you think that we'd get ANYWHERE NEAR decent value for Ryan if we tried to trade him.

You MIGHT find someone who willing to give up a 2nd or 3rd for him. A 1st is absolutely out of the question.

That's taking it in the ass for the 5th overall pick.

Yeah we wouldn't get the 5th pick back that's for sure. But again that was under the highly unlikely scenario that Brodie all of a sudden makes better decisions, gains touch and can stay healthy so let's not get carried away.

You're missing the big picture. We have an average at best QB who can't stay healthy. If there's an opportunity to draft a QB who by all professional reports say he'll go 8th at worse, then you do it. No questions asked.

milkman
04-02-2008, 10:57 AM
You make a good point here.

On the other hand, if we take a QB #1 the pressure to get him in there might make it very hard to give Brodie a good shot with the (partially) rebuilt O.

Yeah, like the Chiefs give a shit about the fans.

And they sure as hell won't get any pressure from the ass kissing media.

suds79
04-02-2008, 11:00 AM
I guess if Ryan is in the same class as Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Rex Grossman (2 SBs and a SB loss) then we'd be crazy to pass him up.

Nobody has said he's in the class of those guys. The comparison was to much better players.

Yes those guys made it to the SB with some of the greatest defenses of all time. If the Chiefs think they can put together 11 players of that quality and build a team around DTs and such, then they should go ahead.

OnTheWarpath58
04-02-2008, 11:02 AM
Yeah we wouldn't get the 5th pick back that's for sure. But again that was under the highly unlikely scenario that Brodie all of a sudden makes better decisions, gains touch and can stay healthy so let's not get carried away.

You're missing the big picture. We have an average at best QB who can't stay healthy. If there's an opportunity to draft a QB who by all professional reports say he'll go 8th at worse, then you do it. No questions asked.

Are those "professional reports" saying he'll go at 8 because he's a sure-fire franchise QB, or because he just happens to be the best QB in a pathetic class?

I haven't seen a single scouting report that says Matt Ryan is a franchise QB.

Frankie
04-02-2008, 11:46 AM
The only reason Ryan is talked about as a potential top 5 this year is that there aren't any real franchise QBs in this draft.

If there were any real franchise QBs in this draft, Ryan would liklely be discussed as a late first round pick, at best.

I agree.

Tribal Warfare
04-02-2008, 11:51 AM
Elway was a freak of nature with a combination of talent not likely ever to be duplicated on the football field.



That's what a top 5 QB is about, and anything less you are just rolling the dice for failure

Hoover
04-02-2008, 12:01 PM
That's what a top 5 QB is about, and anything less you are just rolling the dice for failure

Ding! Thats why I don't want Ryan.

Sure Rivers, Eli, Palmer, and Big Ben are nice QBs who I would love to have. But what about Tim Couch, David Carr, Matt Lienart, and Kyle Boller

Chad Pennington was a first round draft pick, its a crap shoot and this years class is weak on top so just say no.

kcchiefsus
04-02-2008, 12:19 PM
We don't have to pick a QB this year.

If Croyle sucks ass this year guess what? We will be back in the top five and actually have some good young talent for the QB we draft next year. If Croyle pans out great, we will probably be drafting in late teens or 20s where we can grad another lineman or DB.

Am I the only one who sees it this way. Grab a OT or DT and call it a victory in Round one.

But next years QB class is probably worse than this years so then what?

DaKCMan AP
04-02-2008, 12:21 PM
But next years QB class is probably worse than this years so then what?

:doh!:We've already been over this.

IMO, next year's class RIGHT NOW looks stronger than this year's class did March 2007. :rolleyes:

OnTheWarpath58
04-02-2008, 12:21 PM
But next years QB class is probably worse than this years so then what?

I keep wondering how anyone can claim to know how great or how bad a QB class can be before they even play the season?

ChiefGator
04-02-2008, 12:35 PM
And I like they way we are suddenly classifying Eli as a good quarterback who some people would love to have here. I personally think that Croyle is very likely a similar quarterback to Eli. That comparison of Kiper's I agree with. They seem very similar actually.

Better hope Croyle pulls it together quickly though... Eli got alot of slack and time to develop because of his draft position.

Reerun_KC
04-02-2008, 01:18 PM
And I like they way we are suddenly classifying Eli as a good quarterback who some people would love to have here. I personally think that Croyle is very likely a similar quarterback to Eli. That comparison of Kiper's I agree with. They seem very similar actually.

Better hope Croyle pulls it together quickly though... Eli got alot of slack and time to develop because of his draft position.
Sad part about this, The Fans and Management of the Chiefs have a zero tolerance policy on developing QB's... If we draft Ryan he better come in and play like Montana in his prime or One Arrowhead drive will implode and the fans of KC will be pitchforking/burning down Arrowhead.

Its sad really, we know nothing about patience or developing a QB in KC, regardless of his draft position.

OnTheWarpath58
04-02-2008, 01:19 PM
Sad part about this, The Fans and Management of the Chiefs have a zero tolerance policy on developing QB's... If we draft Ryan he better come in and play like Montana in his prime or One Arrowhead drive will implode and the fans of KC will be pitchforking/burning down Arrowhead.

Its sad really, we know nothing about patience or developing a QB in KC, regardless of his draft position.

QFT.

Mecca
04-02-2008, 01:21 PM
Wow bagging on Roethlisberger in the thread?

If we had a QB as good as him we should all be thrilled.

milkman
04-02-2008, 01:24 PM
Sad part about this, The Fans and Management of the Chiefs have a zero tolerance policy on developing QB's... If we draft Ryan he better come in and play like Montana in his prime or One Arrowhead drive will implode and the fans of KC will be pitchforking/burning down Arrowhead.

Its sad really, we know nothing about patience or developing a QB in KC, regardless of his draft position.

All that tells you about the fans is that they bought a plot in King Carl's land of mediocrity and are reticent about giveing up that plat.

Chris Meck
04-02-2008, 01:24 PM
You don't know what a QB draft class looks like until 5 years after it's happened. Ever. Seriously.

You absolutely have no idea whatsoever who will pan out and from what round in advance.

Is Matt Ryan Peyton Manning? Or is he Heath Shuler? Is he Big Ben? Or is he Tim Couch?

You don't know. The experts don't know either. The scouts don't know.

Taking a QB in the first round is a huge reach, ALWAYS. So much of that position is mental that I don't think you can ever really say that a QB is BAA. You don't know how the kid's going to react to whatever situation you're putting him in.

If I was an NFL GM, I think I'd look at QB's in the mid rounds nearly every year, in rounds 4-6, where a 'reach' is acceptable. I'd never take one in the first, because by the time this kid could maybe be a good NFL QB, I'll be long gone and so will the coaching staff. And if you're lousy up front, he's probably not going to develop anyway.

I think drafting a QB in round one in a rebuilding phaze when you already have a young largely unproven QB is about the dumbest thing we could do.

OnTheWarpath58
04-02-2008, 01:29 PM
You don't know what a QB draft class looks like until 5 years after it's happened. Ever. Seriously.

You absolutely have no idea whatsoever who will pan out and from what round in advance.

Is Matt Ryan Peyton Manning? Or is he Heath Shuler? Is he Big Ben? Or is he Tim Couch?

You don't know. The experts don't know either. The scouts don't know.

Taking a QB in the first round is a huge reach, ALWAYS. So much of that position is mental that I don't think you can ever really say that a QB is BAA. You don't know how the kid's going to react to whatever situation you're putting him in.

If I was an NFL GM, I think I'd look at QB's in the mid rounds nearly every year, in rounds 4-6, where a 'reach' is acceptable. I'd never take one in the first, because by the time this kid could maybe be a good NFL QB, I'll be long gone and so will the coaching staff. And if you're lousy up front, he's probably not going to develop anyway.

I think drafting a QB in round one in a rebuilding phaze when you already have a young largely unproven QB is about the dumbest thing we could do.

Wow.

Now THAT'S a theory I haven't heard before.

Can't necessarily disagree with you, other than I would be willing to draft a QB in ANY round other than the 1st.

Just like LT, it's been proven that you don't have to be a 1st round pick to be a starting QB in this league.

There are 12 starting LT's in the league that are 1st round picks, and there are 14 (off the top of my head) starting QB's that were 1st round picks.

Mecca
04-02-2008, 01:34 PM
I know Tom Brady has made people think that but when you look at all the guys that go in the mid rounds, there's about a 5% chance of finding a good starting QB out of the first.

Deberg_1990
04-02-2008, 01:41 PM
Sad part about this, The Fans and Management of the Chiefs have a zero tolerance policy on developing QB's... If we draft Ryan he better come in and play like Montana in his prime or One Arrowhead drive will implode and the fans of KC will be pitchforking/burning down Arrowhead.

Its sad really, we know nothing about patience or developing a QB in KC, regardless of his draft position.


Thats partly because Carl has never drafted a 1st round QB so there isnt as much invested in a lower round guy. Whats the highest he has drafted a QB? Was it Blundin a 2nd rounder?

If you draft a QB 1st round or top 10, you better believe he will be given 3-4 years minimum to develop just because of the $$$$$ involved.

Frankie
04-02-2008, 01:45 PM
Sad part about this, The Fans and Management of the Chiefs have a zero tolerance policy on developing QB's... If we draft Ryan he better come in and play like Montana in his prime or One Arrowhead drive will implode and the fans of KC will be pitchforking/burning down Arrowhead.

Its sad really, we know nothing about patience or developing a QB in KC, regardless of his draft position.

True. One of the main reasons Croyle should be given a decent chance before we give up on him. Most Chiefs fans are the "sniff and discard" types, unfortunately.

kcchiefsus
04-02-2008, 01:45 PM
You don't know what a QB draft class looks like until 5 years after it's happened. Ever. Seriously.

You absolutely have no idea whatsoever who will pan out and from what round in advance.

Is Matt Ryan Peyton Manning? Or is he Heath Shuler? Is he Big Ben? Or is he Tim Couch?

You don't know. The experts don't know either. The scouts don't know.

Taking a QB in the first round is a huge reach, ALWAYS. So much of that position is mental that I don't think you can ever really say that a QB is BAA. You don't know how the kid's going to react to whatever situation you're putting him in.

If I was an NFL GM, I think I'd look at QB's in the mid rounds nearly every year, in rounds 4-6, where a 'reach' is acceptable. I'd never take one in the first, because by the time this kid could maybe be a good NFL QB, I'll be long gone and so will the coaching staff. And if you're lousy up front, he's probably not going to develop anyway.

I think drafting a QB in round one in a rebuilding phaze when you already have a young largely unproven QB is about the dumbest thing we could do.

If only we could be so lucky to take reach for a Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, or Philip Rivers. Is Matt Ryan similar to any of them? I don't know but if the Chiefs think he can be that good of a quarterback then by all means they should take him.

Tribal Warfare
04-02-2008, 01:49 PM
You don't know what a QB draft class looks like until 5 years after it's happened. Ever. Seriously.

You absolutely have no idea whatsoever who will pan out and from what round in advance.

Is Matt Ryan Peyton Manning? Or is he Heath Shuler? Is he Big Ben? Or is he Tim Couch?



Which is why Ryan isn't a top 5 prospect, if he can't light it up, like Elway ( and I'm always going back to Elway because He is the epitome of a Top 5 franchise QB) Then their is no reason to even think about him because the guy has to have perennial all-pro potential without a ceiling to be considered a top 5 pick. If he was picked in the 8-20 range I wouldn't be so hard on Ryan. With a Top 5 pick he better be a badass.

Reerun_KC
04-02-2008, 01:51 PM
Thats partly because Carl has never drafted a 1st round QB so there isnt as much invested in a lower round guy. Whats the highest he has drafted a QB? Was it Blundin a 2nd rounder?

If you draft a QB 1st round or top 10, you better believe he will be given 3-4 years minimum to develop just because of the $$$$$ involved.
I agree Deberg 100%, but I am not a true fan... Carl doesnt have patience, otherwise we wouldnt of started Horrid last year. The fans base doesnt have the patience either, or we wouldnt hear stupid ass phrases here about, "learning from a savy vet", "learning the ropes" bullshit that is always spewed here.

If we draft Ryan, This place will rejoice until he goes 3-4 games in a row and throws 2-3 pics each game.. The head coach will meltdown, run LJ further into the ground, Carl will be calling up every unemployeed VET QB "for a look" (another gay ass phrase) trying to get someone in here to calm his nerves and appease the fan base while stopping the development of the chiefs future QB...

Croyle hasnt a chance here in KC, Drafting Ryan and he has about a 20% chance of making it past 4 years...

Its not the QB we select, its the lack of management and coaching that will keep him from being successful.

Also, if Ryan is drafted, He better hold out for the maximum he can get from Carl. He needs to force Carl to pay him, This could be his only pay day when the Chiefs are done screwing him up.

OnTheWarpath58
04-02-2008, 01:52 PM
I know Tom Brady has made people think that but when you look at all the guys that go in the mid rounds, there's about a 5% chance of finding a good starting QB out of the first.

Theres not exactly a much better chance to find one IN the 1st.

To be fair, let's start with 2005. It's too early, IMO, to evaluate the classes of 2006/2007.


2005:

Alex Smith - Looks like a monumental bust at this point.

Aaron Rodgers - Hasn't played. Have no clue.

Jason Campbell - Not worth 1st round pick.


2004:

Eli Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger - All hits.

JP Losman - Not worth 1st round pick.


2003:

Carson Palmer - Hit

Byron Leftwich - Debatable as to worth a 1st or not.

Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman - Not worth 1st round picks.


2002:

David Carr, Joey Harrington, Partick Ramsey - Busts


2001:

Michael Vick - Hit, sort of.

Drew Brees - Hit.


2000:

Chad Pennington - Not worth 1st round pick.


1999:

Donovan Mcnabb, Daunte Culpepper - Hits.

Akili Smith, Tim Couch, Cade McNown - Busts.


1998:

Peyton Manning - Hit

Ryan Leaf - Bust


1997:

Jim Druckenmiller - Bust


1996:

No 1st rounder selected.




So, that's going back through 10 years of drafts, and there have been 10 hits out of 25 QB's selected in the 1st round.

That's a 40% success rate.

Doesn't exactly breed confidence, especially when you see that half of the league starts a QB who WASN'T picked in the 1st round.

Frankie
04-02-2008, 01:54 PM
If I was an NFL GM, I think I'd look at QB's in the mid rounds nearly every year, in rounds 4-6, where a 'reach' is acceptable.

That's what I have always thought a team in the Carl-era Chiefs position should do. Glad someone else agrees with that. On the other hand I still say among Elkins, Blundin and Pat Barnes we could have come up with at least one fairly decent QB if Marty's stubbornness hadn't made them rust on the bench.

I think drafting a QB in round one in a rebuilding phaze when you already have a young largely unproven QB is about the dumbest thing we could do.

Exactly.

milkman
04-02-2008, 01:58 PM
OTW, what's debatable about Byron Leftwich?

He never lived up to first round status, and was cut in favor of David Garrard after only 3 years.

Is he even on a team at this point?

I'd call tha a bust.

OnTheWarpath58
04-02-2008, 02:01 PM
OTW, what's debatable about Byron Leftwich?

He never lived up to first round status, and was cut in favor of David Garrard after only 3 years.

Is he even on a team at this point?

I'd call tha a bust.



Very, very true. I stand corrected.

So, we're at 9/25, a whopping 36% success rate.

Chiefnj2
04-02-2008, 02:01 PM
People are giving Kiper, Mayock and McShay way too much credit and are overvaluing having a "strong" QB class.

Going back:
1999 - Deepest QB class in some time - 5 taken in the first and 3 of the 5 are busts.

2000 - Weak QB class. Pennington only 1st rounder (meh career), 2 6th rounders - Bulger and Brady.

2001 - Poor class, Vick #1 overall and Brees in the 2nd.

2002 - Okay class - 3 first rounders all pretty much busts (Carr, Harrington and Ramsey). Gerrard in the 4th.

2003 - Good Class - 4 first rounders, all a disappointment except for Palmer #1 overall.

2004 - Good Class - 4 first rounders. Finally you get more good than bad with Losman the only apparent miss. Schaub in the 3rd.

2005 - Okay Class - 3 first rounders, with 2 disappointing at the moment and one with more potential (Rodgers).

Having a strong class doesn't necessarily mean much. The odds might be a little in your favor if you pick first and take a QB (Manning, Palmer, Vick v. Couch, Smith).

ChiefsCountry
04-02-2008, 02:07 PM
Really QB stats should be this:

2007 - Manning (1st Round)
2006 - Manning (1st Round)
2005 - Big Ben (1st Round)
2004 - Brady (6th)
2003 - Brady (6th)
2002 - Brad Johnson (8th I think(
2001 - Brady (6th)
2000 - Dilfer (1st - different team)
1999 - Warner
1998 - Elway (1st)
1997 - Elway (1st)
1996 - Favre (2nd - gave up a first for him)
1995 - Aikman (1st)
1994 - Young (would have been 1st overall but signed with USFL)
1993 - Aikman (1st)
1992 - Aikman (1st)

RustShack
04-02-2008, 02:13 PM
I think Croyle has everything he needs to be a very good QB, exept size/durability.

Micjones
04-02-2008, 05:21 PM
Newsflash for Melly Mel...Roethlisberger & Rivers are NOT in a class with Manning.


Roethlisberger's certainly in the same Championship class.
And I'd take a guy like Rivers.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing this team draft Matt Ryan.

markk
04-02-2008, 05:35 PM
Roethlisberger's certainly in the same Championship class.
And I'd take a guy like Rivers.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing this team draft Matt Ryan.

to say that rothlisberger and rivers are in the same class as manning or brady is the most insane thing i have ever read. they aren't in the same class, not in the same grade, not even in the same school district

nychief
04-02-2008, 05:43 PM
I read it to mean they are comparable coming into the draft.

keg in kc
04-02-2008, 05:44 PM
Having a strong class doesn't necessarily mean much. The odds might be a little in your favor if you pick first and take a QB (Manning, Palmer, Vick v. Couch, Smith).I think something interesting would be to look into the situation different QBs were drafted into. Take, for instance, Couch or Carr, both drafted high onto bad teams with bad offensive lines. They got obliterated right out of the gates, and to date, neither has been able to recover from that. And they're certainly not the only ones...

The question being how much of a young QBs success is due to situation, and how much is due to talent? Theoretically speaking, does a Philip Rivers, for example, succeed if he's thrown into a starting role on a San Diego team that doesn't already have an established offense built around LT and Gates?

Let's say the Browns don't draft Quinn in '07, and the Chiefs pull the trigger. What kind of success would anyone have expected him to have had behind last year's line, without Dwayne Bowe? Would he have been written off as a bust and a wasted pick if he didn't elevate the '07 offense on his own?

That has bearing, I think, both one Croyle and on Ryan, if by chance he's drafted by the team. Is this a situation in which any young quarterback can realistically be expected to flourish? That's not to say I dismiss the idea of drafting or developing one out of hand, it's something for which the team's badly overdue, but what are realistic expectations for a KC signal caller in 2008, especially when you consider just what kind of offensive line we have put together at this point?

And let's say we do draft Ryan, or Brohm, or someone else - should they even see the field in 2008?

Micjones
04-02-2008, 05:56 PM
to say that rothlisberger and rivers are in the same class as manning or brady is the most insane thing i have ever read. they aren't in the same class, not in the same grade, not even in the same school district

Reading is so fundamental.

Roethlisberger has a ring. Championship class.
It's quite obvious he's not as talented as Manning.
Sheesh.

Hydrae
04-02-2008, 06:49 PM
Just curious, I don't follow college ball much but what happened to Brohm? Seems like a year ago he was expected to be the top pick for this season but now I seldom even hear about him.

I would think that if Brohm is still a strong prospect at all we could get him with our pick in the second round. That would allow us to still look at a lineman (offense of defense) with the #5 pick and also get a good QB prospect.

Reerun_KC
04-02-2008, 08:55 PM
I think something interesting would be to look into the situation different QBs were drafted into. Take, for instance, Couch or Carr, both drafted high onto bad teams with bad offensive lines. They got obliterated right out of the gates, and to date, neither has been able to recover from that. And they're certainly not the only ones...

The question being how much of a young QBs success is due to situation, and how much is due to talent? Theoretically speaking, does a Philip Rivers, for example, succeed if he's thrown into a starting role on a San Diego team that doesn't already have an established offense built around LT and Gates?

Let's say the Browns don't draft Quinn in '07, and the Chiefs pull the trigger. What kind of success would anyone have expected him to have had behind last year's line, without Dwayne Bowe? Would he have been written off as a bust and a wasted pick if he didn't elevate the '07 offense on his own?

That has bearing, I think, both one Croyle and on Ryan, if by chance he's drafted by the team. Is this a situation in which any young quarterback can realistically be expected to flourish? That's not to say I dismiss the idea of drafting or developing one out of hand, it's something for which the team's badly overdue, but what are realistic expectations for a KC signal caller in 2008, especially when you consider just what kind of offensive line we have put together at this point?

And let's say we do draft Ryan, or Brohm, or someone else - should they even see the field in 2008?

Dammit Keg, There you go making sense again!

Historically with the Horrid OL play that Herm has had over his tenure as a HC in the NFL.. I am not sure Croyle or any other rookie will make much of an impact in the NFL until the Chiefs wise up and start up front...