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HolmeZz
04-12-2008, 03:29 PM
Not you. Not me. All of us.

I'm talking about Obama's comments about voters in rural areas being bitter due to economic hardships. I take it there hasn't been a topic in here yet because most don't disagree with the point he was actually making. My question is why do we feign outrage about this crap? It's embarrassing that we as a country can't honestly and openly address stuff like this without our politicians playing politics or the media looking to stir up shit. It's maddening because we're better than this. We all address it amongst our friends and family, yet topics like this are somehow controversial when they get talked about publicly.

Stewie
04-12-2008, 03:31 PM
Yeah, everyone's dumber than me.... by a long shot!!!

jAZ
04-12-2008, 04:00 PM
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jAZ
04-12-2008, 04:03 PM
CNN was ripping on her and McCain for distorting what he said.

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Unfortunately, today they seems to be replaying her comments over and over and not playing his clip (above) in response and saying things like "the fallout continues..."

Bowser
04-12-2008, 04:09 PM
Is this a rhetorical question?

HolmeZz
04-12-2008, 04:16 PM
Is this a rhetorical question?

The title was. I was looking for legitimate discussion in the original thread post.

Bowser
04-12-2008, 04:21 PM
The title was. I was looking for legitimate discussion in the original thread post.

I have no idea why it's taboo to discuss the economy. Maybe we, or the politicians, don't want to sound like they're taking shots at the current administration? I don't know.

wazu
04-12-2008, 04:23 PM
I was disappointed to hear of Barack Hussein Obama's hate-mongering against small town people. Why does he hate them so much?

ClevelandBronco
04-12-2008, 04:28 PM
I take it there hasn't been a topic in here yet because most don't disagree with the point he was actually making...

Naw, I just didn't see the need to point out that he's a phony scumbag. I don't care.

HolmeZz
04-12-2008, 04:50 PM
Naw, I just didn't see the need to point out that he's a phony scumbag. I don't care.

You're more than free to think he's a phony scumbag. I just don't see how his comments had anything to do with being a phony scumbag.

Nobody seemed to mind him pointing out the reasons for resentment and the misguided scapegoating in urban areas.

ClevelandBronco
04-12-2008, 04:52 PM
You're more than free to think he's a phony scumbag. I just don't see how his comments had anything to do with being a phony scumbag.

Nobody seemed to mind him pointing out the reasons for resentment and the misguided scapegoating in urban areas.

I didn't care about that either.

Logical
04-12-2008, 05:13 PM
I was disappointed to hear of Barack Hussein Obama's hate-mongering against small town people. Why does he hate them so much?I hope this is sarcasm, because it is some really retarded non-sense if not.

Guru
04-12-2008, 05:43 PM
Politicians cannot be trusted.

Ultra Peanut
04-12-2008, 06:56 PM
You're not allowed to say anything that could be misinterpreted. That's dangerous, and might make people have to think too much for themselves.

irishjayhawk
04-12-2008, 06:57 PM
You're not allowed to say anything that could be misinterpreted. That's dangerous, and might make people have to think too much for themselves.

Thinking just made my Brain Exploded.

Ultra Peanut
04-12-2008, 06:59 PM
The mere expression of nuance killed my dog.

wazu
04-12-2008, 08:55 PM
I hope this is sarcasm, because it is some really retarded non-sense if not.

First of all, mental retardation is nothing to make fun of. Second of all, of course it was sarcasm. Third of all, Obama is still stupid for having opened his big yapper on this one. It will become an issue, and Hillary and McCain will use it for all it's worth. He basically implied that small-towners are religious nuts and gun nuts because they are bitter people in failing towns. It's a very cynical viewpoint, and shows an aloofness that can sink a candidacy.

Logical
04-12-2008, 09:04 PM
First of all, mental retardation is nothing to make fun of. Second of all, of course it was sarcasm. Third of all, Obama is still stupid for having opened his big yapper on this one. It will become an issue, and Hillary and McCain will use it for all it's worth. He basically implied that small-towners are religious nuts and gun nuts because they are bitter people in failing towns. It's a very cynical viewpoint, and shows an aloofness that can sink a candidacy.
Seriously do you have that quote because it certainly does not reflect what he said in SF where he simply said that people were bitter over their economic hardship. I am not getting it.

"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them.

"And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Is there something horrible about saying that people hang out with other people they are comfortable with?

HolmeZz
04-12-2008, 09:22 PM
He basically implied that small-towners are religious nuts and gun nuts because they are bitter people in failing towns.

That wasn't what he said. He said the bitterness was understandable. He was talking about misguided scapegoating that occurs whenever there's economic hardship. People migrate to wedge issues like guns and religion in rural areas(in his explanation of urban resentment, he said affirmative action and illegal immigration) because they're easily identifiable and important parts of those communities. As such, Politicians have made a living off these resentments(both parties) by appealing to whichever group they can, rather than trying to openly talk about the problems that have caused the schism.

It's an important discussion to have and the fact it can't even be brought up in this political environment is what I'm embarrassed by.

wazu
04-12-2008, 09:28 PM
Seriously do you have that quote because it certainly does not reflect what he said in SF where he simply said that people were bitter over their economic hardship. I am not getting it.

Is there something horrible about saying that people hang out with other people they are comfortable with?

This is the bullet:

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

So people are just bitter about what he percieves as economic failure where they live. They're losers, so they cling to these extremist, really uncool beliefs. That's why they hate immigrants. (Not illegal immigrants, of course, just immigrants.) It also doesn't help that he said it in California.

Even his explanation after the fact implies that small town people believe what they believe out of cynicism and pessimism.

This doesn't affect my vote either way. There is actually an outside chance I might vote for him. But it is going to haunt him, fair or not. Just like McCain's "hundred years" remark will haunt him.

wazu
04-12-2008, 09:34 PM
That wasn't what he said. He said the bitterness was understandable. He was talking about misguided scapegoating that occurs whenever there's economic hardship. People migrate to wedge issues like guns and religion in rural areas(in his explanation of urban resentment, he said affirmative action and illegal immigration) because they're easily identifiable and important parts of those communities. As such, Politicians have made a living off these resentments(both parties) by appealing to whichever group they can, rather than trying to openly talk about the problems that have caused the schism.

You are absolutely correct. That is, if nothing else, the spirit of what he was trying to say. But at the end of the day, he is calling them "bitter". How would you feel if everything you believed was dismissed simply because you were considered "bitter"?

By the way, I'm just a little bit curious...how does Hillary appeal to gun nuts, religious nuts, and anti-immigration types?

Logical
04-12-2008, 09:35 PM
That wasn't what he said. He said the bitterness was understandable. He was talking about misguided scapegoating that occurs whenever there's economic hardship. People migrate to wedge issues like guns and religion in rural areas(in his explanation of urban resentment, he said affirmative action and illegal immigration) because they're easily identifiable and important parts of those communities. As such, Politicians have made a living off these resentments(both parties) by appealing to whichever group they can, rather than trying to openly talk about the problems that have caused the schism.

It's an important discussion to have and the fact it can't even be brought up in this political environment is what I'm embarrassed by.

I am resigned to the fact that people are going to ignore the context to hear what they want to hear. Crazy

Otter
04-12-2008, 09:37 PM
And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Pretty broad brush to paint with on some sensitive matters. Anti-immigration or anti-illegal immigration?

Is the United States growing along with it's soaring population? Last I checked it wasn't.

God help us all with any of these three nimrods in charge.

Logical
04-12-2008, 09:37 PM
You are absolutely correct. That is, if nothing else, the spirit of what he was trying to say. But at the end of the day, he is calling them "bitter". How would you feel if everything you believed was dismissed simply because you were considered "bitter"?

By the way, I'm just a little bit curious...how does Hillary appeal to gun nuts, religious nuts, and anti-immigration types?Hell I am bitter about our political plight, our economic outlook and the lousy choices we have to overcome the problems. Does not change the way I view Hillary, Obama, or McCain.

wazu
04-12-2008, 09:42 PM
Hell I am bitter about our political plight, our economic outlook and the lousy choices we have to overcome the problems. Does not change the way I view Hillary, Obama, or McCain.

Being bitter about candidate choices is one thing. Believing very deeply in tangible issues like gun control, family values, illegal immigration, etc, is another. I believe in small government, balanced budgets, and fiscal responsibility. These beliefs were not born out of bitterness. And anybody who tries to marginalize my beliefs by saying I am just "bitter" about my own situation will be very wrong.

Logical
04-12-2008, 09:46 PM
Being bitter about candidate choices is one thing. Believing very deeply in tangible issues like gun control, family values, illegal immigration, etc, is another. I believe in small government, balanced budgets, and fiscal responsibility. These beliefs were not born out of bitterness. And anybody who tries to marginalize my beliefs by saying I am just "bitter" about my own situation will be very wrong.

Adam he said people with like beliefs are clinging to each other. He did not say they were bitter over these issues.

Halfcan
04-12-2008, 09:48 PM
the fallout continues

wazu
04-12-2008, 09:49 PM
Adam he said people with like beliefs are clinging to each other. He did not say they were bitter over these issues.

Your first sentence is wrong, your second is correct. He said people were bitter over economic failure, and that it caused them to cling to issues like gun control, religion, and "anti-immigration", the third of which is the most offensive since it implies they oppose legal immigrants. That he says it is "understandable" is nothing less than patronizing.

penchief
04-12-2008, 09:49 PM
Yes, we are retarded. George W. Bush is enough proof of that.

Logical
04-12-2008, 10:05 PM
Your first sentence is wrong, your second is correct. He said people were bitter over economic failure, and that it caused them to cling to issues like gun control, religion, and "anti-immigration", the third of which is the most offensive since it implies they oppose legal immigrants. That he says it is "understandable" is nothing less than patronizing.
I guess he was properly speaking to a California audience then because I heard what he meant and clearly understood it.

I doubt if any voters who are feeling butt hurt by the remark were going to vote for him either way.

wazu
04-12-2008, 10:11 PM
I guess he was properly speaking to a California audience then because I heard what he meant and clearly understood it.

I doubt if any voters who are feeling butt hurt by the remark were going to vote for him either way.

Maybe not in the general, but in the primary I can easily see it mattering. Hell, even in the general, you have to realize the sensitivities here. Smalltown, USA has been marginalized in the public dialogue and in what they see and hear on T.V. for a long time, and fanning the flame of resentment is an easy thing to do. There is no reason for Obama to have handed McCain and Hillary so much red meat on a silver platter.

Guru
04-12-2008, 10:19 PM
I would like to just clean the house, senate and WH and start over with new rules.

wazu
04-12-2008, 10:25 PM
I would like to just clean the house, senate and WH and start over with new rules.

I'd settle for enforcing the rules already in place.

Logical
04-12-2008, 10:57 PM
Maybe not in the general, but in the primary I can easily see it mattering. Hell, even in the general, you have to realize the sensitivities here. Smalltown, USA has been marginalized in the public dialogue and in what they see and hear on T.V. for a long time, and fanning the flame of resentment is an easy thing to do. There is no reason for Obama to have handed McCain and Hillary so much red meat on a silver platter.

I am pretty sure the small town vote was not really that likely to fall in Obama's direction in either elections.

alanm
04-12-2008, 11:10 PM
I believe John McCain thinks it's hilarious that Barry keeps stepping on his dick. ROFL

Logical
04-12-2008, 11:23 PM
Well when it comes to dick stepping, McCain has been doing the best of klogging and tap dancing while Barrack is slow dancing.

Guru
04-12-2008, 11:48 PM
I'd settle for enforcing the rules already in place.

Sorry, didn't mean those rules. Just the rules for running for office. I think it is asinine how much money you have to have just to run.

jAZ
04-13-2008, 12:15 AM
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/bitter-and-angry-in-rural-penn.php

Bitter and Angry in Rural Pennsylvania: Obama's Reality vs. Hillary's Fantasy
By astral66 - April 12, 2008, 4:40PM

Maybe there aren't Bubbas driving around in pickup trucks with the classic bumpersticker "God, Guns and Guts Made America Free" where Obama's detractors live, but here in rural Pennsylvania that line may as well replace "e pluribus unum" as the motto on the national currency.

I live in western Pennsylvania, and I can tell you, people here are bitter and angry. Poverty is prevalent. People hunt squirrels and eat them, along with racoon stew. People also hunt deer here, not for sport, but so they can put meat in their freezer so they can feed their families. They cut wood in the forests and heat their homes with wood stoves because they can't afford to pay the gas bill. I know a guy who goes to old landfills to dig up old milk and beer bottles to sell on eBay. He uses the proceeds to buy clothes for his family at the Salvation Army (and to pay for his dial-up connection).

Racism and prejudice are ever-present here. A friend of mine is part-owner of bar in a small rural town south of where I live. I meet up with him there occasionally and watch as down-and-out people come in with their disability and welfare check money and drink it away. It's a pretty depressing place, but it does serve as the social center for a town that has seen its few industries shut down and the local people's jobs eliminated or shipped off elsewhere.

I hear the usual rants there, that it's all the fault of gays and minorities and immigrants (although those aren't the terms used, but rather the usual, virulent slurs). A black man walked in the last time I was there, and a guy near me at the bar muttered in a not-so-quiet way, "What's he think he's doing in here?" When I brought up the presidential race and Obama with another man at the bar, his response was, "there ain't no way America is ever going to vote for a black guy." Later on my bar-owner friend told me about his experience talking about Obama with another woman at the bar, and her angry response was that "it's because of half-breed n*****s like him that America is in such bad shape today."

Prejudice, racism and fear do run rampant in areas like this. People are poor. They are in bad health, overweight from a deep-fried diet, and toothless from the lack of dental care. They are unemployed. They are uneducated. They do cling to their hunting rifles and to their religious beliefs. For many, it is about all that they have. The towns around here are full of decaying, boarded up buildings. People live in rundown old trailers with abandoned cars in the front yard. I have seen people using an old car as a stable, with their goat tied to and living in it. I could drive you by a least three old houses that have Conderate flags in the windows.

So go ahead and discount Obama's talk of how bitter and angry that some of the people of rural Pennsylvania are. Call him elitist for taking the time to pass through areas such as this to listen to what the people have to say, and to then relate what he has heard to people in more prosperous parts of the country when he is asked about it. I have lived in San Francisco, and let me tell you, there is a marked difference between the general attitude there and the attitude here in the "rust belt". Go ahead and dismiss everything that Obama said as political posturing. Let Hillary and McCain "pick him apart" and parse his words. But please keep in mind that when Obama said:

"it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

that he is 100% accurate in his assessment.

I know, because I live here, my family and my friends' families have lived here for generations, and we see it every day, all around this region. There is a very fine line between poverty and prosperity here, where making above $20,000 a year puts you in the realm of the "haves", but also knowing that you're one contract termination away from joining the ranks of the "have-nots".

I come from a family of dairy farmers. I know what it's like to spend up to 12-16 hours a day sitting on a tractor for three dollars an hour, which I did through high school and every summer until I was fortunate enough to head off to college. Many of my friends were also fortunate and went to school, and then relocated to other parts of the country. Some of us were able to come back under better circumstances, but the large majority of people here are not as fortunate.

Thirty years worth of the right wing dismantling our public education system has taken its toll. Thirty years worth of mismanagement of the economy, of shutting down factories and shipping jobs out of the country, of subsidizing corporate farms and taxing family farms out of business, has taken its toll.

Yes, people are angry, and bitter, but Obama never said that they aren't resilient, opitmistic or hard-working. Those are Hillary and McCain's twisted words, and for them to stand up and suggest that rural Pennsylvanians aren't fed up with the way things are, only reveals how out of touch they really are with at least this part of the country.

Of course, all McCain has to do is suggest to poor rural folk that the party of gun-control, gay marriage, and NAFTA is going to take away what little they have left, and rural conservatives will vote for him, just as they did for Reagan, Bush I and Bush II. As for Hillary, the more she "takes apart" Obama's message, the more she does the GOP's work for free. If Hillary can't see that the people of rural Pennsylvania are bitter, and angry, and mad as hell about the way things are, then she needs to step down from that one hundred million dollar platform of hers and take a real look around.

In western Pennsylvania I hear two things: the "God, Guns and Guts" crowd see John McCain as the heir-apparent to the mantle of rural conservative values; and the people who hope for some kind of change see Barack Obama as the person who understands the situation that we are in, and maybe is the one who can lead us in a new direction. What I don't hear is anyone talking about whatever and whomever it is that Hillary claims to stand for.

wazu
04-13-2008, 07:36 AM
I am pretty sure the small town vote was not really that likely to fall in Obama's direction in either elections.

At the very least a percentage of it will fall in Obama's direction. The only question is how big that percentage will be.

memyselfI
04-13-2008, 09:33 AM
He said something ridiculous that was not eloquent and not scripted...

gee, what are the odds of that happening to the Messiah?

Talk about making Karl Rove salivate

patteeu
04-13-2008, 09:47 AM
It seems natural to me for someone who turned to religion primarily for the purpose of advancing his own political career to assume that others "cling" to religion for reasons other than belief. Obama's patronizing commentary reinforces my skepticism about his faith.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 11:08 AM
It seems natural to me for someone who turned to religion primarily for the purpose of advancing his own political career to assume that others "cling" to religion for reasons other than belief. Obama's patronizing commentary reinforces my skepticism about his faith.

That wasn't what he said.

Your interpretation reinforces the thead title. We are a retarded people.

DaneMcCloud
04-13-2008, 11:22 AM
He basically implied that small-towners are religious nuts and gun nuts because they are bitter people in failing towns.

You mean, they're not? :evil:

BigOlChiefsfan
04-13-2008, 11:44 AM
http://bp1.blogger.com/_AUX1CAxm9g8/SAF_fGvaYDI/AAAAAAAAA4g/Cf5TwcWEInU/s400/snob.jpg

Mr. Kotter
04-13-2008, 11:52 AM
Yes. "We" are---apparently.

It's really pathetic. :banghead:

memyselfI
04-13-2008, 12:08 PM
That wasn't what he said.

Your interpretation reinforces the thead title. We are a retarded people.

No, he means people different from himself are. He was in SAN FRANCISCO, one of the most liberal locales on the planet, and he was stereotyping and making commentary on country folk behind their backs in what was a closed event.

What he said was not inherently wrong, IMO. The fact that he won't say it to the faces of these people but in hiding in front of private liberal audiences IS.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 12:27 PM
No, he means people different from himself are.

No, all he said was there was misguided scapegoating.

He did the exact same ****ing thing in his race speech, when he talked about resentments leading to people getting riled up about affirmative action and illegal immigration.

Nobody gave a shit then because he was talking about resentments within Democratic strongholds. Now he's talking about Republican strongholds and everyone who applauded that part of his race speech is PO'd because they don't want to hear about themselves from a Democrat.

He was in SAN FRANCISCO, one of the most liberal locales on the planet, and he was stereotyping and making commentary on country folk behind their backs in what was a closed event.

Yes, he was explaining the reason for resentment to people who wouldn't know anything about rural areas. He wasn't talking shit behind anyone's back. He was making the case that those people in rural communities have essentially been the victims of politicians and bad government policy.

He talked about the very same thing in his race speech.

What he said was not inherently wrong, IMO.

And there's the crux of this topic.

IT WAS RIGHT, BUT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID IT

We are a retarded people.

memyselfI
04-13-2008, 12:29 PM
No, all he said was there was misguided scapegoating.

He did the exact same ****ing thing in his race speech, when he talked about resentments leading to people getting riled up about affirmative action and illegal immigration.

Nobody gave a shit then because he was talking about resentments within Democratic strongholds. Now he's talking about Republican strongholds and everyone who applauded that part of his race speech is PO'd because they don't want to hear about themselves from a Democrat.



Yes, he was explaining the reason for resentment to people who wouldn't know anything about rural areas. He wasn't talking shit behind anyone's back. He was making the case that those people in rural communities have essentially been the victims of politicians and bad government policy.

He talked about the very same thing in his race speech.



And there's the crux of this topic.

IT WAS RIGHT, BUT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID IT

We are a retarded people.

No, he can say it. He just can't pretend to be all things to all people because at some point it will bite you in the ass...

Baby Lee
04-13-2008, 12:49 PM
No, all he said was there was misguided scapegoating.

He did the exact same ****ing thing in his race speech, when he talked about resentments leading to people getting riled up about affirmative action and illegal immigration.

Nobody gave a shit then because he was talking about resentments within Democratic strongholds. Now he's talking about Republican strongholds and everyone who applauded that part of his race speech is PO'd because they don't want to hear about themselves from a Democrat.



Yes, he was explaining the reason for resentment to people who wouldn't know anything about rural areas. He wasn't talking shit behind anyone's back. He was making the case that those people in rural communities have essentially been the victims of politicians and bad government policy.

He talked about the very same thing in his race speech.



And there's the crux of this topic.

IT WAS RIGHT, BUT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID IT

We are a retarded people.

How far we've progressed, used to be hicks were just plain ignorant, now we realize, yes, they're ignorant, but they have good reason to be. Nice.

Chief Henry
04-13-2008, 12:58 PM
Barry didn't think anyone at this SF fundraiser would out him for what he said.

My guess Barry would not have said any of that CRAP had he been in any of the east coast perceived "Fly over" states.

That alone tells you alot about ol Barry. Combine that with what his wfe stated about NOT being proud of America and our accomplishments until very recently and you have have a very good idea of what makes Mr. and Mrs. Barry Obama tic.

Barry made his SF audience laugh with that statement. The SF people at that audience laughed at midwestern people.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 01:00 PM
How far we've progressed, used to be hicks were just plain ignorant, now we realize, yes, they're ignorant, but they have good reason to be. Nice.

This is partly why we can't have intelligent discussion about this. It's just so much easier to get offended than address an actual point.

He was talking about resentments that build up during hard times economically. That's not some new ideology. It's pretty much bared itself out through our history. It doesn't apply to any particular region or group of people. He made the very same argument in his race speech; that these issues have been exacerbated by politicians for their own political gain. He even mentioned anti-trade sentiment, which is something he happens to benefit from.

I didn't hear this outcry about him calling people 'ignorant' after his race speech.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 01:01 PM
Barry made his SF audience laugh with that statement. The SF people at that audience laughed at midwestern people.

Yeah, you're totally not paranoid.

Baby Lee
04-13-2008, 01:14 PM
I didn't hear this outcry about him calling people 'ignorant' after his race speech.
Saying it's understandable that black folk think the government introduced AIDS because of the Tuskegee experiment has a little more 1-1 applicability and reasonability, than saying poor rural people cling to religion because opportunity and wealth have passed them by.

I don't mind him bringing up the issue of resentments, I do mind him trying to explain what people already have a hard time understanding from the outside [hunting, religion, rural culture] as simply a function of resentments.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 01:33 PM
Saying it's understandable that black folk think the government introduced AIDS because of the Tuskegee experiment...

He didn't say that and I know you're more intellectually honest than that. He never said anything about AIDs being manufactured by the government. You're mixing Wright's sermon with Obama's own words. He talked about resentment coming from the Tuskegee experiment, but he never said that was a justifiable reason to think the government created AIDs.

than saying poor rural people cling to religion because opportunity and wealth have passed them by.

Again, he wasn't saying those economic times have driven people towards religion. He was talking about the development of guns and religion as wedge issues. Those have been traditionally important to parts of those communities. He wasn't debating that. His point had to do with the exploitation of those issues for political gain, as a way of monopolizing that vote. He was talking about both parties as evidenced by the fact he made the same point in his race speech and he brought up anti-trade sentiment, which he benefits from.

This kind of phony outrage benefits no one.

HonestChieffan
04-13-2008, 01:33 PM
There is no doubt that Obama said exactly what he meant to say. His look down on the rural folk message and his inability to understand that some people are not buying his garbage has him bumfuzzled. And no its not a race thing. They will spin it that way. They will spin the country redneck white folk wont support the emerging black man. What crap.

See, Barak doesn't get it. Just because I live rural does not make me a bumpkin. And just because I own guns, like to shoot, enjoy hunting and fishing, it does not make me less refined or as erudite as he and his wife seem to be. The fact I believe in my constitutional right to have my guns is important to me. But it goes deeper, far deeper than that.

Maybe its important to me that the entire constitution be supported. Not just the second ammendment. But he would just see the 2nd ammendment issue and not give credit to the fact most of those same people would fight every bit as hard to support any part of the constitutiion. Obama and his followers see a gun owner and an NRA member. Maybe they should look again. That may just be someone who does not thing the constitution is a toy for the Obamas of this world to mess with.

And the frustration he sees is not an expression of frustration with our "condition" at all. Obama doesnt probably understand that its always been a tough row running a business in small town America. We choose to do it because its the way we want to live. And we see him as a treat to our way of life. What he sees as bitter is probably more a fight or flight reaction to a man who is clearly not on the same page as many people are. Its frustration and probably more a fear that he could be elected President.

He probably doesn't understand that people in small towns tend to support one another. We tend to come together when its needed, we go to a lot of different churches in these small towns. But all those churchs tend to support the local ministerial alliance and provide for people in need locally without any reservation based on religion, color, or circumstance.. Our churches teach us to do that. That doesnt make us bitter.Not a bunch of right wing bible beaters. Maybe what he sees as "bitter" is a simple expression of distrust for who he is, a dislike for the things he stands for, and a fear that he will somehow get the power to implement some of his ideas that we find diametrically opposed to our values. His church taught him to reach out to the black man and to hate the white man. There is no doubt and there is no debate that that is exactly what his church stood for for the 20 plus years he was a member. We may find that reason to not trust him. Trust is important to some people.

Many small town rural people are self made. The run a business or they farm, or they work for a business that is serving other businesses or an ag based economy. So Obama probably has a hard time understanding that lower taxes is a pretty important thing to people who work day to day in a small one or two person business, or running a farm, or trying to make enough to continue to pay the payroll in your business. See, Barak has never had to deal with such things so he cannot relate to it. Bitter? No. Fearful that he will become President and perhaps destroy what people have worked for? Yes. Very much so.

The values of family and community are important to many people. Not just rural folks or small town people, but in those cases, yea, its pretty darn important. And we may see Obama as having none of those basic good old fashioned values. For good reason.

So is it an over reaction when Obama says something like he said? No. Its an affirmation of what some people already knew. And I suspect, he may have had a few fence sitters in those towns who now see him in a different light. It probably swayed a few folks and will continue to be an example. An example that Obama does not share a connection with many people that he desperately needs to establish. A connection that from now forward will be even more difficult to establish.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 01:44 PM
Yeah, Barack's an elitist. LMAO

He comes from a single parent home, very little wealth, and spent a good chunk of his childhood in one of the poorest nations on this planet. Dude had it made.

Ultra Peanut
04-13-2008, 01:48 PM
Generation Squeeb in full effect, baybay. Faux-conflagration number 6000, ACTIVATE!

How far we've progressed, used to be hicks were just plain ignorant, now we realize, yes, they're ignorant, but they have good reason to be. Nice.<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ooZzAhYeH0A&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ooZzAhYeH0A&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Ultra Peanut
04-13-2008, 01:54 PM
Anyways, I'm ashamed of Obama for addressing how real people actually feel. He should have just said, "Everything's awesome! The middle-class will get through this and become better off!!!!"

<embed src="http://wordpress.com/v/PgkyNxBZ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="400" height="320"></embed>

Chief Henry
04-13-2008, 01:56 PM
Yeah, Barack's an elitist. LMAO

He comes from a single parent home, very little wealth, and spent a good chunk of his childhood in one of the poorest nations on this planet. Dude had it made.

Dude, your paranoid and in da hood for Barry, know whuut i'm sayn?

Barry opened his pie hole to some SF elitist and now he's spinning to keep us po redneck white folk in da dark from his and his bitchn ho's real thoughts.

Chief Henry
04-13-2008, 01:59 PM
There is no doubt that Obama said exactly what he meant to say. His look down on the rural folk message and his inability to understand that some people are not buying his garbage has him bumfuzzled. And no its not a race thing. They will spin it that way. They will spin the country redneck white folk wont support the emerging black man. What crap.

See, Barak doesn't get it. Just because I live rural does not make me a bumpkin. And just because I own guns, like to shoot, enjoy hunting and fishing, it does not make me less refined or as erudite as he and his wife seem to be. The fact I believe in my constitutional right to have my guns is important to me. But it goes deeper, far deeper than that.

Maybe its important to me that the entire constitution be supported. Not just the second ammendment. But he would just see the 2nd ammendment issue and not give credit to the fact most of those same people would fight every bit as hard to support any part of the constitutiion. Obama and his followers see a gun owner and an NRA member. Maybe they should look again. That may just be someone who does not thing the constitution is a toy for the Obamas of this world to mess with.

And the frustration he sees is not an expression of frustration with our "condition" at all. Obama doesnt probably understand that its always been a tough row running a business in small town America. We choose to do it because its the way we want to live. And we see him as a treat to our way of life. What he sees as bitter is probably more a fight or flight reaction to a man who is clearly not on the same page as many people are. Its frustration and probably more a fear that he could be elected President.

He probably doesn't understand that people in small towns tend to support one another. We tend to come together when its needed, we go to a lot of different churches in these small towns. But all those churchs tend to support the local ministerial alliance and provide for people in need locally without any reservation based on religion, color, or circumstance.. Our churches teach us to do that. That doesnt make us bitter.Not a bunch of right wing bible beaters. Maybe what he sees as "bitter" is a simple expression of distrust for who he is, a dislike for the things he stands for, and a fear that he will somehow get the power to implement some of his ideas that we find diametrically opposed to our values. His church taught him to reach out to the black man and to hate the white man. There is no doubt and there is no debate that that is exactly what his church stood for for the 20 plus years he was a member. We may find that reason to not trust him. Trust is important to some people.

Many small town rural people are self made. The run a business or they farm, or they work for a business that is serving other businesses or an ag based economy. So Obama probably has a hard time understanding that lower taxes is a pretty important thing to people who work day to day in a small one or two person business, or running a farm, or trying to make enough to continue to pay the payroll in your business. See, Barak has never had to deal with such things so he cannot relate to it. Bitter? No. Fearful that he will become President and perhaps destroy what people have worked for? Yes. Very much so.

The values of family and community are important to many people. Not just rural folks or small town people, but in those cases, yea, its pretty darn important. And we may see Obama as having none of those basic good old fashioned values. For good reason.

So is it an over reaction when Obama says something like he said? No. Its an affirmation of what some people already knew. And I suspect, he may have had a few fence sitters in those towns who now see him in a different light. It probably swayed a few folks and will continue to be an example. An example that Obama does not share a connection with many people that he desperately needs to establish. A connection that from now forward will be even more difficult to establish.

rep for sure

Ultra Peanut
04-13-2008, 01:59 PM
Dude, your paranoid and in da hood for Barry, know whuut i'm sayn?

Barry opened his pie hole to some SF elitist and now he's spinning to keep us po redneck white folk in da dark from his and his bitchn ho's real thoughts.Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 02:09 PM
Dude, your paranoid and in da hood for Barry, know whuut i'm sayn?

And you're saying Obama is out of touch?

Barry opened his pie hole to some SF elitist and now he's spinning to keep us po redneck white folk in da dark from his and his bitchn ho's real thoughts.

So the way to act when you perceive that Obama has called you ignorant is to act ignorant? Do I have that right?

ClevelandBronco
04-13-2008, 02:21 PM
So the way to act when you perceive that Obama has called you ignorant is to act ignorant? Do I have that right?

Not only do you have the right, I'm convinced that you have no other option. :D

Logical
04-13-2008, 02:23 PM
How far we've progressed, used to be hicks were just plain ignorant, now we realize, yes, they're ignorant, but they have good reason to be. Nice.
Man the last person I would expect to be paranoid would be you. Sure Chief Henry and HonestChieffan are expected to be paranoid but not you.:eek:

Baby Lee
04-13-2008, 04:14 PM
Man the last person I would expect to be paranoid would be you. Sure Chief Henry and HonestChieffan are expected to be paranoid but not you.:eek:

What's paranoid? He's making the argument that people aren't voting in their economic interest because they're cynical about Washington, but they still wanna express themselves, so they fall back on guns and faith and societal concerns such as gay marriage, not because they actually care about those positions, but they're the only positions they think they can be heard on. And further, they get to a bitter and devisive state because they're so entrenched on these [subtext 'false'] issues. It completely negates any notion that people hold the views they do honestly, and for good reason. They've just been bamboozled into holding tight to the only things they think they can control. If only they could be brought to TRULY believe that someone can make them richer, they'd give up these quaint notions that gun rights and marriage, and immigration policy matter all that much.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 04:43 PM
further, they get to a bitter and devisive state because they're so entrenched on these [subtext 'false'] issues.

No, he clearly said they're bitter because of economic hardship. And that's because they're usually voting AGAINST their own economic interests. It's what we in the biz call a 'vicious circle'.

It completely negates any notion that people hold the views they do honestly...

Uh, that's not close to what he's saying. He's saying because people do hold those views dear to them, that's why they've been able to be exploited politically.

He's not criticizing them. He's saying they've been victims of a government that isn't working in their best interests.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-13-2008, 04:43 PM
What's paranoid? He's making the argument that people aren't voting in their economic interest because they're cynical about Washington, but they still wanna express themselves, so they fall back on guns and faith and societal concerns such as gay marriage, not because they actually care about those positions, but they're the only positions they think they can be heard on. And further, they get to a bitter and devisive state because they're so entrenched on these [subtext 'false'] issues. It completely negates any notion that people hold the views they do honestly, and for good reason. They've just been bamboozled into holding tight to the only things they think they can control. If only they could be brought to TRULY believe that someone can make them richer, they'd give up these quaint notions that gun rights and marriage, and immigration policy matter all that much.

http://www.manindemand.com/uploaded_images/0805073396.01.LZZZZZZZ-712531.jpg

Baby Lee
04-13-2008, 05:30 PM
http://www.manindemand.com/uploaded_images/0805073396.01.LZZZZZZZ-712531.jpg

Yes, I'm well aware that I could have just said he's reading from 'What's the matter with Kansas'

Baby Lee
04-13-2008, 05:34 PM
No, he clearly said they're bitter because of economic hardship. And that's because they're usually voting AGAINST their own economic interests. It's what we in the biz call a 'vicious circle'.



Uh, that's not close to what he's saying. He's saying because people do hold those views dear to them, that's why they've been able to be exploited politically.

He's not criticizing them. He's saying they've been victims of a government that isn't working in their best interests.

Quick question, do you have an inkling that Obama is positioning himself to cede the social interests of rural conservatives to bring economic interests to the fore, or do you rather think that he's positioning himself to try to convince rural conservatives that their social interests are not as important as their economic interests?

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-13-2008, 05:36 PM
Yes, I'm well aware that I could have just said he's reading from 'What's the matter with Kansas'

You are such an angry, loathsome prick ROFL

Mr. Flopnuts
04-13-2008, 05:38 PM
Seriously do you have that quote because it certainly does not reflect what he said in SF where he simply said that people were bitter over their economic hardship. I am not getting it.



Is there something horrible about saying that people hang out with other people they are comfortable with?

It depends. If you're a person of color, or alternative orientation, not at all. If you're a white guy, it makes you uneducated and racist. Sorry to take the discussion to this level if it's not already, but it is what it is.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-13-2008, 05:47 PM
And the frustration he sees is not an expression of frustration with our "condition" at all. Obama doesnt probably understand that its always been a tough row running a business in small town America. We choose to do it because its the way we want to live. And we see him as a treat to our way of life. What he sees as bitter is probably more a fight or flight reaction to a man who is clearly not on the same page as many people are. Its frustration and probably more a fear that he could be elected President.



LMAO While that wasn't your intent, the faux pas was hilarious.

mlyonsd
04-13-2008, 05:48 PM
After listenting to the recording and then reading it I honestly don't see what the big deal is. I think he could have rephrased his thought, but I don't think it is a big strike against him.

Hill and Bill will play it out though. You seriously don't want to mispeak when battling them.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 05:55 PM
Quick question, do you have an inkling that Obama is positioning himself to cede the social interests of rural conservatives to bring economic interests to the fore, or do you rather think that he's positioning himself to try to convince rural conservatives that their social interests are not as important as their economic interests?

He's not trying to convince them their social values don't matter. Of course they do.

I think he's going to play up the things he can to them though. He's not for gay marriage. He talks a ton about self-reliance when he's on the campaign trail. He's apparently been reaching out to large segments of gun owners in PA despite the fact he does favor gun control.

I think his ultimate point is he thinks those voters have been forced to choose between their values and their economic interests. There's going to be conflicts of interest on certain issues, but they shouldn't have to fully compromise one for the other. Plus, issues like abortion and gay marriage aren't going to go anywhere anyway. Those kinds of issues are dead-ends regardless of who you vote for.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 06:00 PM
It depends. If you're a person of color, or alternative orientation, not at all. If you're a white guy, it makes you uneducated and racist. Sorry to take the discussion to this level if it's not already, but it is what it is.

You hear Obama's race speech? You probably would've liked to hear him say it's not racist to be concerned about the crime rate in your city, that kind of stuff.

penchief
04-13-2008, 06:17 PM
Again....yes, we are retarded.

Want evidence? How does, "Shock and Awe" sound to you now?

Mr. Flopnuts
04-13-2008, 06:19 PM
You hear Obama's race speech? You probably would've liked to hear him say it's not racist to be concerned about the crime rate in your city, that kind of stuff.

I'm not saying that shit applies to me. I don't have a whole lot of experience with black people honestly. Doesn't mean I quiver in fear and walk the other way when I see them. It also doesn't mean I make snap judgments on people I don't know personally. We're all humans, and we're all animals.

I just don't think that white people are in a position to be TRULY honest with their feelings right now, which is a damn shame. How can we fix the problem when we don't REALLY know what it is? That's all I was trying to say. Why do I feel I'm on the defensive right now? You didn't really attack me. It's just the state of our public at this point I think.

redbrian
04-13-2008, 06:31 PM
No, he clearly said they're bitter because of economic hardship. And that's because they're usually voting AGAINST their own economic interests. It's what we in the biz call a 'vicious circle'.



Uh, that's not close to what he's saying. He's saying because people do hold those views dear to them, that's why they've been able to be exploited politically.

He's not criticizing them. He's saying they've been victims of a government that isn't working in their best interests.

Kind of like the urban black community and the Dem's........

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 06:33 PM
Kind of like the urban black community and the Dem's........

That's why Obama brought up Affirmative Action in his speech..........

NewChief
04-13-2008, 06:38 PM
http://www.manindemand.com/uploaded_images/0805073396.01.LZZZZZZZ-712531.jpg

That's what I just keep thinking. Thomas Frank wrote a freaking book on this subject to critical acclaim. Obama riffs on the theme in one freaking sentence, and people are acting like he's bowing to Mecca 5 times a day.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-13-2008, 06:44 PM
That's what I just keep thinking. Thomas Frank wrote a freaking book on this subject to critical acclaim. Obama riffs on the theme in one freaking sentence, and people are acting like he's bowing to Mecca 5 times a day.

This is what happens when people are invested in idiocy. It's not that the media doesn't know better, they do, they just realize that wanton dumbassery and faux outrage sell better than intellectualism.

patteeu
04-13-2008, 07:23 PM
That wasn't what he said.

Your interpretation reinforces the thead title. We are a retarded people.

It seems like a fair representation of what he said to me.

Bowser
04-13-2008, 07:30 PM
This is what happens when people are invested in idiocy. It's not that the media doesn't know better, they do, they just realize that wanton dumbassery and faux outrage sell better than intellectualism.

One reason to watch the news on BBC (not that they are the mendoza line for honest reporting, just seems like there's less bullshit and more actual news there).

banyon
04-13-2008, 07:37 PM
What's paranoid? He's making the argument that people aren't voting in their economic interest because they're cynical about Washington, but they still wanna express themselves, so they fall back on guns and faith and societal concerns such as gay marriage, not because they actually care about those positions, but they're the only positions they think they can be heard on. And further, they get to a bitter and devisive state because they're so entrenched on these [subtext 'false'] issues. It completely negates any notion that people hold the views they do honestly, and for good reason. They've just been bamboozled into holding tight to the only things they think they can control. If only they could be brought to TRULY believe that someone can make them richer, they'd give up these quaint notions that gun rights and marriage, and immigration policy matter all that much.

I think this is a reasonable critique of Frank's book, but I think Frank takes it one step further. It's not just that they've been bamboozled into thinking they can control those issues, it's that they've been bamboozled into thinking that they can control those issues even though they keep electing Republicans again and again who continually fail to address those same issues, but somehow it will be different this time.

Logical
04-13-2008, 08:18 PM
What's paranoid? He's making the argument that people aren't voting in their economic interest because they're cynical about Washington, but they still wanna express themselves, so they fall back on guns and faith and societal concerns such as gay marriage, not because they actually care about those positions, but they're the only positions they think they can be heard on. And further, they get to a bitter and devisive state because they're so entrenched on these [subtext 'false'] issues. It completely negates any notion that people hold the views they do honestly, and for good reason. They've just been bamboozled into holding tight to the only things they think they can control. If only they could be brought to TRULY believe that someone can make them richer, they'd give up these quaint notions that gun rights and marriage, and immigration policy matter all that much.

Oh you were joking, you should have just said that, it would of taken less time. Very funny...ROFL

Logical
04-13-2008, 08:24 PM
No, he can say it. He just can't pretend to be all things to all people because at some point it will bite you in the ass...

You really don't want me playing multiple youtubes of Hillary in front of audiences in front of Texas, New York, South Carolina and Indiana; giving us the 4 faces of Hillary who varies her facial expressions and vocal inflections like the scary bitch from the Excorcist.:shake::eek:

Baby Lee
04-13-2008, 08:37 PM
That's what I just keep thinking. Thomas Frank wrote a freaking book on this subject to critical acclaim. Obama riffs on the theme in one freaking sentence, and people are acting like he's bowing to Mecca 5 times a day.
I think when someone says "people are bitter, so they cling to their religion, and their gun rights" people are entitled to examine his intent.
I may have crossed wires, but I think even Obama has admitted that he said what he said in a dumb and potentially inflammatory way.

And still, this all plays out in the murkiness of what Obama will actually be, is he genuinely going to consider diverse viewpoints, and will it alter his agenda if merited, or is he just talking reconciliation because he recognizes that if he just gives people an audience, they'll be less inclined to revolt when does what he planned on in the first place.

memyselfI
04-13-2008, 08:38 PM
You really don't want me playing multiple youtubes of Hillary in front of audiences in front of Texas, New York, South Carolina and Indiana; giving us the 4 faces of Hillary who varies her facial expressions and vocal inflections like the scary bitch from the Excorcist.:shake::eek:

I really wouldn't care if you did. She's only slightly better than Baaarack. Not worth fighting for, IMO.

Logical
04-13-2008, 08:51 PM
I really wouldn't care if you did. She's only slightly better than Baaarack. Not worth fighting for, IMO.
Well you are improving then.:thumb:

memyselfI
04-13-2008, 08:54 PM
Well you are improving then.:thumb:

As I've said, I'm not fighting FOR Hillary rather I'm fighting AGAINST Obamessiah.

HolmeZz
04-13-2008, 09:07 PM
I really wouldn't care if you did. She's only slightly better than Baaarack. Not worth fighting for, IMO.
.

Since he is the one true anti-war candidate (besides Kucinich) and he's more liberal than Hillary or Edwards then he'll get my vote. I'm just not sure he can win and that is why I'm not throwing my support behind him 100%. I think he would have been better to wait. But he diminishes Hillary's odds so that is a major plus.

For me, it's Gore or Obama with the edge going to Gore but since he's not running it's Obama by defaut.

Forget 007, Obama's campaign buttons should read: O08. :)

jAZ
04-13-2008, 11:58 PM
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NIxmi3e2Vmo&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NIxmi3e2Vmo&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

jAZ
04-14-2008, 12:07 AM
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/12/882730.aspx

Is 'bitter' sticking in North Carolina?
Posted: Saturday, April 12, 2008 4:16 PM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: 2008, Clinton, Obama

From NBC/NJ's Carrie Dann

GOLDSBORO, NC -- As is evident from political journalists' email boxes today, the Clinton campaign appears to believe it's found a silver bullet -- served with a side of brie and chardonnay -- in Obama's recent controversial comments.

On the same day that Obama's opponents keep their eyes peeled for outrage from small-town America, Bill Clinton is doing a marathon six-stop campaign day in rural eastern North Carolina, a swing billed by one supporter as a "Barbeque Tour."

But the issue doesn't seem to be sticking. Clinton himself has been silent on the issue. But at the first two events of the day, the campaign has sent one of Carolina's hometown boys out to push the issue before Clinton takes the stage. Tom Hendrickson, a Clinton supporter and former Democratic Party chairman, included a reading of Obama's comments in his introduction of Clinton.

"Senator Obama, don't pity us and think that we're bitter and frustrated," he said in Winterville this morning. "We are hard-working family folks who are smart, and we get it. We don't need pundits to tell us what to think."

Hendrickson repeated the sentiment at a later stop in Winston, but dropped the direct mention of Obama as the source of the quote.

In both instances, Hendrickson's speech evidenced little reaction from the crowd, which had been waiting for the main event for over an hour, and appeared to have little tolerance for a parade of surrogates.

By the third stop of the day in Goldsboro, Hendrickson did not even take the stage.

In Goldsboro, close observers noticed a (light) smattering of stickers being worn by attendees. "I'm not bitter!" read the simple rectangular label on the lapels of a couple dozen in the crowd. The campaign says that the stickers are evidence of outrage at the grassroots level.

Yet it's unclear how spontaneous the sentiment was. A boxful of the stickers was spotted at Clinton's first event of the day -- being whisked backstage.

*** UPDATE *** The Clinton campaign in NC takes responsibility for the stickers, per a campaign aide, but says that the idea originally came from a volunteer.

Stickers have been distributed by volunteers -- given a "green light" by staff -- at four of Bill Clinton's events yesterday.

Saggysack
04-14-2008, 01:21 AM
poor rural people cling to religion because opportunity and wealth have passed them by

Believe what you want but...I'm going with not having much to do past 9pm. :D

NewChief
04-14-2008, 05:59 AM
This is some funny shit. Hillary in a duck blind. Hillary as Annie Oakley. ROFL
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bzQxFtM9cfk&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bzQxFtM9cfk&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

memyselfI
04-14-2008, 06:37 AM
.

Yeah, keep reposting that post from over a year ago. Remind me that I was almost one of the SUCKAHS who have bought into his fraud. It also reminds me why I need to keep fighting against him.

Thanks.

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 08:24 AM
So the way to act when you perceive that Obama has called you ignorant is to act ignorant? Do I have that right?


Ignorant is saying some one goes to church on a regular basis - hunts on a regualr basis because they're angry with "da man". Now the laughable
followers of the church of Obamaism are upset with us who take exception to what the man at the pulpit is preachin. That is ignorant.

jAZ
04-14-2008, 08:49 AM
Yeah, keep reposting that post from over a year ago. Remind me that I was almost one of the SUCKAHS who have bought into his fraud. It also reminds me why I need to keep fighting against him.

Thanks.
What will it take for you to look back on this entire period and say that you were wrong? What will Obama have to do while in ofice to make that happen 1, 2 or 4 years later?

jAZ
04-14-2008, 08:51 AM
Ignorant is saying some one goes to church on a regular basis - hunts on a regualr basis because they're angry with "da man". Now the laughable.
Do you KNOW that's not what he said, or do you need to realize that's not what he said?

Just curious where you are coming from.

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 09:04 AM
Do you KNOW that's not what he said, or do you need to realize that's not what he said?

Just curious where you are coming from.


Spin away mistro. Thats exactly what he said and he said it front of
people who really enjoyed what he said.

Logical
04-14-2008, 09:27 AM
Ignorant is saying some one goes to church on a regular basis - hunts on a regualr basis because they're angry with "da man". Now the laughable
followers of the church of Obamaism are upset with us who take exception to what the man at the pulpit is preachin. That is ignorant.No ignorant is spinning it that way out of context when he actually said this:

"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them.

"And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 09:44 AM
Who's bitter ?

patteeu
04-14-2008, 09:47 AM
No ignorant is spinning it that way out of context when he actually said this:

"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them.

"And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Forget the elitist and patronizing tone of Obama's statement for a minute. What I find interesting about this particular quote is what it can tell us about Obama's true political opinions. Notice how Obama groups those who are pro-gun and religious (presumably religious conservatives) with those who are racist. The other enlightening aspect of this statement is that it suggests that Obama's "skepticism" regarding trade agreements is somewhat less than sincere. Of course, this latter point is consistent with what Obama's economic advisor told the Canadians a while back so it's not all that surprising.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-14-2008, 09:51 AM
Forget the elitist and patronizing tone of Obama's statement for a minute. What I find interesting about this particular quote is what it can tell us about Obama's true political opinions. Notice how Obama groups those who are pro-gun and religious (presumably religious conservatives) with those who are racist. The other enlightening aspect of this statement is that it suggests that Obama's "skepticism" regarding trade agreements is somewhat less than sincere. Of course, this latter point is consistent with what Obama's economic advisor told the Canadians a while back so it's not all that surprising.

Remember the Southern Strategy?

patteeu
04-14-2008, 09:52 AM
Remember the Southern Strategy?

So you agree with my analysis?

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-14-2008, 09:55 AM
So you agree with my analysis?

:huh:

StcChief
04-14-2008, 10:11 AM
Mr. Harvard Law keeps making statements like this, he'll be out in Nov. if not before.

he can be "elite" and non-retarded wondering what happened. The next John Kerry awaits

Ultra Peanut
04-14-2008, 10:17 AM
Mr. Harvard Law keeps making statements like this, he'll be out in Nov. if not before.Oh my shits.

Yes. The only people who will ever become President are plumbers and farmhands.

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 10:32 AM
Oh my shits.

Yes. The only people who will ever become President are plumbers and farmhands.


If you want to be PRESIDENT. I 'm guessing you'll want the votes of plumbers and farmhands.

banyon
04-14-2008, 10:55 AM
If you want to be PRESIDENT. I 'm guessing you'll want the votes of plumbers and farmhands.

The Keating Five are the salt of the earth. Got it.

StcChief
04-14-2008, 11:17 AM
If you want to be PRESIDENT. I 'm guessing you'll want the votes of plumbers and farmhands.
I guess he didn't get my point. They won't vote for him anyway.

Plumbers, Farmhands? WTF

It's another clash of city vs. rural values.

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 11:20 AM
The Keating Five are the salt of the earth. Got it.


And exactly how does this enter into THIS conversation ?

If you were running for President, would you not want the votes of
those people ?

jAZ
04-14-2008, 02:26 PM
...(Obama said) some one goes to church on a regular basis - hunts on a regualr basis because they're angry with "da man".

Thats exactly what he said and he said it front of people who really enjoyed what he said.

Now you are just lying because here's the EXACT quote:

"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them," Obama said. "And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

He didn't say that they "(go) to church... or (go) hunt(ing)... because they're angry". He's talking about why people don't vote economic issues and instead vote cultural issues like guns, gays, immigration, etc.

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 02:41 PM
Jiz,

Your turning yourself into a pretzel protecting Barry. Reread what you high lighted.
Your Barry Obamaism revival thumpin jubilation is just making you look foolish.

Donger
04-14-2008, 02:42 PM
Barack Hussein will take your guns and not let you go to church. Bank on it.

BucEyedPea
04-14-2008, 02:51 PM
McCain wants to intervene around the world even China and Russia.
A man who is a boiling maelstorm of hate who loves to kill Ay-rabs and foreigners with no restraint.

Donger
04-14-2008, 02:53 PM
McCain wants to intervene around the world even China and Russia.
A man who is a boiling maelstorm of hate who loves to kill Ay-rabs and foreigners with no restraint.

I'm sold.

Logical
04-14-2008, 02:53 PM
McCain wants to intervene around the world even China and Russia.
A man who is a boiling maelstorm of hate who loves to kill Ay-rabs and foreigners with no restraint.Ye ha another cowboy, I think we need a Northwestern Republican, have we ever had one?

Logical
04-14-2008, 02:55 PM
Now you are just lying because here's the EXACT quote:
"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them," Obama said. "And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
He didn't say that they "(go) to church... or (go) hunt(ing)... because they're angry". He's talking about why people don't vote economic issues and instead vote cultural issues like guns, gays, immigration, etc.You are right, but you are wasting your breath, the far right nutjobs think they found their winning issue.

Bowser
04-14-2008, 02:56 PM
Barack Hussein will take your guns and not let you go to church. Bank on it.

How much are you willing to pony up, Nostradamus?


[/sarcasm]

Donger
04-14-2008, 02:58 PM
How much are you willing to pony up, Nostradamus?


[/sarcasm]

Barack Hussein is going to "re-distribute" all my money to pay for his "free" health care, so $0.00

HolmeZz
04-14-2008, 03:00 PM
Barack Hussein will take your guns and not let you go to church. Bank on it.

That would be funny if it wasn't actually what some people believed.

Donger
04-14-2008, 03:06 PM
That would be funny if it wasn't actually what some people believed.

Doesn't Barack Hussein want to ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons?

Logical
04-14-2008, 03:10 PM
Doesn't Barack Hussein want to ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons?Why would you need semi-auto, you do realize that this does not ban multi-shot rifles or pistols, right?

Taco John
04-14-2008, 03:11 PM
Why would you need semi-auto, you do realize that this does not ban multi-shot rifles or pistols, right?


This question really depends on what your view of the second amendment is. What do you believe the purpose of the second amendment is?

Donger
04-14-2008, 03:11 PM
Why would you need semi-auto, you do realize that this does not ban multi-shot rifles or pistols, right?

Barack Hussein is telling me what I need now?

Logical
04-14-2008, 03:13 PM
Barack Hussein is telling me what I need now?
Do you ever actually answer a simple question?

Donger
04-14-2008, 03:13 PM
Do you ever actually answer a simple question?

Yes.

penchief
04-14-2008, 03:14 PM
I'll say it again, "yes, we are retarded."

Radar Chief
04-14-2008, 03:15 PM
Why would you need semi-auto, you do realize that this does not ban multi-shot rifles or pistols, right?

Quicker shooting on multiple targets for sport/competition shooting and semi-autoís typically have less recoil on hotter loads, though accuracy can suffer to some extent.
Why, whatís your sudden problem with semi-autoís?

Logical
04-14-2008, 03:16 PM
This question really depends on what your view of the second amendment is. What do you believe the purpose of the second amendment is?Facts are facts TJ we will never put together a militia that could resist the tyranny of our government if it became coercive and had the military on its side. Numbers be damned semi-automated weapons against tank, F-22s and bombers ain't going to cut it. Those days are long gone.

Logical
04-14-2008, 03:18 PM
Quicker shooting on multiple targets for sport/competition shooting and semi-autoís typically have less recoil on hotter loads, though accuracy can suffer to some extent.
Why, whatís your sudden problem with semi-autoís?
Personally I don't have a problem with them in middle and Western Kansas, the problem is in urban areas as the province of primarily gang bangers.

Logical
04-14-2008, 03:19 PM
Yes.ROFL

Now try to answer my original question.

Why would you need semi-auto, you do realize that this does not ban multi-shot rifles or pistols, right?

Donger
04-14-2008, 03:19 PM
Personally I don't have a problem with them in middle and Western Kansas, the problem is in urban areas as the province of primarily gang bangers.

Do gang bangers typically follow the law?

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 03:20 PM
You are right, but you are wasting your breath, the far right nutjobs think they found their winning issue.


Winning issue, far from it actually. Its just one of many issues. Barry knows he f'up this time.

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 03:21 PM
Notice how the subject is changing in this thread?

Donger
04-14-2008, 03:21 PM
ROFL

Now try to answer my original question.

Why would you need semi-auto, you do realize that this does not ban multi-shot rifles or pistols, right?

Well, I did already answer it. Why should Barack Hussein tell me what I want or need? I say this as a non-gun owner. If he looks like he could win the GE, I'll probably go and buy a few before the banning.

penchief
04-14-2008, 03:23 PM
Yes, we are retarded.

Cave Johnson
04-14-2008, 03:24 PM
Why is this a controversy? Because we've become a nation of 3rd graders that doesn't want to hear anything remotely construable as negative about ourselves. Collectively we just want our participation ribbons and juice.

And if this board is any indication, I imagine Barry's comments offends the strong overtones of rural/midwest superiority. How dare that city slicker tell us why we vote for god, gays, and guns.

Obama's problem is that he treats us like adults. As a nation, we're not.

Donger
04-14-2008, 03:29 PM
Why is this a controversy? Because we've become a nation of 3rd graders that doesn't want to hear anything remotely construable as negative about ourselves. Collectively we just want our participation ribbons and juice.

And if this board is any indication, I imagine Barry's comments offends the strong overtones of rural/midwest superiority. How dare that city slicker tell us why we vote for god, gays, and guns.

Obama's problem is that he treats us like adults. As a nation, we're not.

Treats us like adults? Adults who shouldn't have semi-automatic guns, can't provide our families with health coverage or provide for our retirement?

Sounds like treating us like children, IMO.

BigOlChiefsfan
04-14-2008, 03:30 PM
Rasmussen (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/56_disagree_with_obama_s_comments_on_small_town_america)

Mickey Kaus (http://www.slate.com/id/2188487/)

Cave Johnson
04-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Treats us like adults? Adults who shouldn't have semi-automatic guns, can't provide our families with health coverage or provide for our retirement?

Sounds like treating us like children, IMO.

So is there anything the British government does that you do like? I'm guessing Iraq, for one.

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 03:45 PM
Why is this a controversy? Because we've become a nation of 3rd graders that doesn't want to hear anything remotely construable as negative about ourselves. Collectively we just want our participation ribbons and juice.

And if this board is any indication, I imagine Barry's comments offends the strong overtones of rural/midwest superiority. How dare that city slicker tell us why we vote for god, gays, and guns.

Obama's problem is that he treats us like adults. As a nation, we're not.


Why is this a controversy? Barry is the one that got caught talking about his true thoughts and idea's. Its just that he didn't think they would get out infront of the media and the masses. What many of us have thought all along is what he just admitted to in that fund raising speech in SF. Why didn't Barry say this in Pennsylvania or Iowa or Indiana ?

Its really no controversy to me at all. It just reaffirmed what many ofus have thought about him and his wife for along time. Apperantly many other people are getting there eyes opened to him and his thoughts too.

Many Barry supporters are doing back flips off the high board to cover up for the man. Becareful of the chlorine in the swimming pool.

Midwest superiority, not really. We just don't appreciate east coast or west coast elitism thumbing there noses at us and then laughing.

We who live in "fly over" country know that a certain amount of elitism is going to always take place on the left and right coast. But when one gets caught spewing that elitism and then tries to say that he didn't say it.
Thats just plain malarky and BS.

If your going to say something about us Barry, say it to our face.

Taco John
04-14-2008, 03:48 PM
Facts are facts TJ we will never put together a militia that could resist the tyranny of our government if it became coercive and had the military on its side. Numbers be damned semi-automated weapons against tank, F-22s and bombers ain't going to cut it. Those days are long gone.


That wasn't the question.

Cave Johnson
04-14-2008, 03:59 PM
Why is this a controversy? Barry is the one that got caught talking about his true thoughts and idea's. Its just that he didn't think they would get out infront of the media and the masses. What many of us have thought all along is what he just admitted to in that fund raising speech in SF. Why didn't Barry say this in Pennsylvania or Iowa or Indiana ?

Its really no controversy to me at all. It just reaffirmed what many ofus have thought about him and his wife for along time. Apperantly many other people are getting there eyes opened to him and his thoughts too.

Many Barry supporters are doing back flips off the high board to cover up for the man. Becareful of the chlorine in the swimming pool.

Midwest superiority, not really. We just don't appreciate east coast or west coast elitism thumbing there noses at us and then laughing.

We who live in "fly over" country know that a certain amount of elitism is going to always take place on the left and right coast. But when one gets caught spewing that elitism and then tries to say that he didn't say it.
Thats just plain malarky and BS.

If your going to say something about us Barry, say it to our face.

You'll get no backflips from me. Apparently y'all are anti-gay and immigrant b/c you're bigoted, not bitter.

HolmeZz
04-14-2008, 04:08 PM
Obama said similar things about urban areas in his race speech and most of these r-tards didn't have anything to say. They applauded Obama for picking apart resentments and biases in Democratic strongholds.

Donger
04-14-2008, 04:20 PM
So is there anything the British government does that you do like? I'm guessing Iraq, for one.

That's about it, although I admit I don't follow their politics very closely.

Calcountry
04-14-2008, 04:23 PM
Every time Jaz posts something, I CLING to my bible.

Logical
04-14-2008, 04:27 PM
You'll get no backflips from me. Apparently y'all are anti-gay and immigrant b/c you're bigoted, not bitter.
ROFL Nice or should I say Suweeeet....

Logical
04-14-2008, 04:30 PM
Notice how the subject is changing in this thread?
Not really, you are still retarded.

Logical
04-14-2008, 04:34 PM
That wasn't the question.Now you know how we feel when you anticipate the answers to the questions we ask.

So do I believe
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Yes I believe we should be able to own guns, but not all type of guns, nor do I believe the people should be able to own tanks, RPGs, or F-22s (all considered arms by some extremists).

BIG_DADDY
04-14-2008, 04:52 PM
Now you know how we feel when you anticipate the answers to the questions we ask.

So do I believe


Yes I believe we should be able to own guns, but not all type of guns, nor do I believe the people should be able to own tanks, RPGs, or F-22s (all considered arms by some extremists).


How are you supposed to secure a free state with BB guns?

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-14-2008, 05:23 PM
All this thread does is show how the discourse of this country is invested in idiocy. Seems to me to be a rather conscious decision after Vietnam. If we are a nation of idiots, we only dissent about tangential and spurious ideas, not issues that truly matter.

penchief
04-14-2008, 05:26 PM
Yes, we're retarded.

Life
During
Wartime

Hydrae
04-14-2008, 05:54 PM
Yes, we are retarded. George W. Bush is enough proof of that.

End of thread, the question has been fully answered.

HolmeZz
04-14-2008, 06:15 PM
All this thread does is show how the discourse of this country is invested in idiocy. Seems to me to be a rather conscious decision after Vietnam. If we are a nation of idiots, we only dissent about tangential and spurious ideas, not issues that truly matter.

What I find hilarious is that a lot of these same people who have been calling him 'Barack Hussein' and 'Osama Obama' for the longest time now and have talked about how he could never win because of his name or because he's black, are now feigning outrage at a twisted perception that they were personally called ignorant. Clearly they saw a level of ignorance in this country that they thought Obama wouldn't be able to get past or they never would've mentioned those things.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-14-2008, 06:19 PM
What I find hilarious is that a lot of these same people who have been calling him 'Barack Hussein' and 'Osama Obama' for the longest time now and have talked about how he could never win because of his name or because he's black, are now feigning outrage at a twisted perception that they were personally called ignorant. Clearly they saw a level of ignorance in this country that they thought Obama wouldn't be able to get past or they never would've mentioned those things.

Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity--Bullet Tooth Tony.

Donger
04-14-2008, 06:55 PM
What I find hilarious is that a lot of these same people who have been calling him 'Barack Hussein' and 'Osama Obama' for the longest time now and have talked about how he could never win because of his name or because he's black, are now feigning outrage at a twisted perception that they were personally called ignorant. Clearly they saw a level of ignorance in this country that they thought Obama wouldn't be able to get past or they never would've mentioned those things.

I doubt that Barack Hussein was referring to me, but I can spot condescension when I see it. Someone has to stick up for the little people, and it's clear it's not going to be Barack Hussein.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-14-2008, 07:06 PM
I doubt that Barack Hussein was referring to me, but I can spot condescension when I see it. Someone has to stick up for the little people, and it's clear it's not going to be Barack Hussein.

Donger, the big oil populist.

Give me a f*cking break ROFL ROFL

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 07:37 PM
You'll get no backflips from me. Apparently y'all are anti-gay and immigrant b/c you're bigoted, not bitter.

Bigoted...no

Bitter...not even close

Wondering what makes Barry O tic, yes indeed.

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 07:38 PM
Not really, you are still retarded.

Your post are very sad and predictable.

Logical
04-14-2008, 07:44 PM
Your post are very sad and predictable.:D

Glad that I meet expectations. Probably more than you can offer.

Donger
04-14-2008, 07:47 PM
Donger, the big oil populist.

Give me a f*cking break ROFL ROFL

I'm not sticking up for the little people, mind you. They should be exploited, IMO.

Seems like Barack Hussein feels the same way, from a different direction.

Chief Henry
04-14-2008, 07:56 PM
:D

Glad that I meet expectations. Probably more than you can offer.

In your own little world, if that makes you a better man. Have at it.
Your .02 is just that, but maybe its .03 to you if it makes you feel
somewhat superior.

Logical
04-14-2008, 08:04 PM
In your own little world, if that makes you a better man. Have at it.
Your .02 is just that, but maybe its .03 to you if it makes you feel
somewhat superior.
Well it takes .03 to buy a two bit comment like that one in Kalifornia.:D

patteeu
04-14-2008, 09:03 PM
Why is this a controversy? Because we've become a nation of 3rd graders that doesn't want to hear anything remotely construable as negative about ourselves. Collectively we just want our participation ribbons and juice.

And if this board is any indication, I imagine Barry's comments offends the strong overtones of rural/midwest superiority. How dare that city slicker tell us why we vote for god, gays, and guns.

Obama's problem is that he treats us like adults. As a nation, we're not.

Obama's problem is that he strikes an aloof pose as if he's speaking from Mt. Olympus and proceeds to lecture to the lesser folks regarding their shortcomings.

Even when he was called on the carpet for his own questionable judgment for associating with Rev. Wright for 20 years, his speech turned out to be a lecture focused on the flaws of Rev. Wright, his grandmother, and other resentful whites and blacks.

Logical
04-14-2008, 09:10 PM
Obama's problem is that he strikes an aloof pose as if he's speaking from Mt. Olympus and proceeds to lecture to the lesser folks regarding their shortcomings.

Even when he was called on the carpet for his own questionable judgment for associating with Rev. Wright for 20 years, his speech turned out to be a lecture focused on the flaws of Rev. Wright, his grandmother, and other resentful whites and blacks.
]
If you don't feel guilty why should you apologize?

Taco John
04-14-2008, 09:18 PM
What was the problem with Obama assocating with Reverend Wright? I still don't get that one. I guess he isn't white enough or something?

patteeu
04-14-2008, 09:18 PM
]
If you don't feel guilty why should you apologize?

Does Obama ever feel guilty or is he unerringly correct in his judgments in a way that he apparently doesn't think any of the rest of us are?

BigOlChiefsFan dropped a link (http://www.slate.com/id/2188487/) to an excellent blog article on this very point.

...

Yes, he's condescending. It's not just that in explaining everyone to everyone Obama winds up patronizing everyone. He doesn't patronize everyone equally. Specifically, he regards the views of these Pennsylvanians as epiphenomena--byproducts of economic stagnation--in a way he doesn't regard, say, his own views as epiphenomena.** Once the Pennsylvanians get some jobs back, they'll change and become as enlightened as Obama or the San Franciscans to whom he was talking. That's the clear logic of his argument. Superiority of this sort--not crediting the authenticity and standing of your subject's views--is a violation of social equality, which is a more important value for Americans than money equality.

...

---------------

**--You might argue that this was the same 'it-will-go-away' attitude Obama had toward the anger of parishioners of Rev. Wrights's church--which would reinforce the "he condescends to everyone" theory of Obama. But the parallel isn't there. Obama describes ongoing black anger about racism as an artifact of racism--it's an epiphenomenon only in the sense that it will eventually disappear when its legitimate cause disappears. Obama describes white anger--indeed white anger, white racism, white religiosity, white NRA membership and white opposition to comprehensive immigration reform--as an artifact of something unrelated, namely the loss of good industrial jobs. It''s fundamentally inauthentic, Obama suggests, because (unlike black anger) it isn't caused by what those who express it say it is caused by.

And Obama never describes his own views as the products of anything except an accurate perception of reality. Come to think of it, has he ever expressed any doubt about--let alone apologized for--his views? He certainly didn't apologize in his "race" speech. He presents himself as near ominscient, the Archimedian point from which everyone else's beliefs and behavior can be assessed and explained, and to which almost everyone's beliefs will revert after the revolution. ... sorry, I mean after President Obama has restored hope!

Logical
04-14-2008, 09:35 PM
How are you supposed to secure a free state with BB guns?
I already addressed that Troy.

Originally Posted by Ill-Logical http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=4684056#post4684056)
Facts are facts TJ we will never put together a militia that could resist the tyranny of our government if it became coercive and had the military on its side. Numbers be damned semi-automated weapons against tank, F-22s and bombers ain't going to cut it. Those days are long gone.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-14-2008, 09:39 PM
What was the problem with Obama assocating with Reverend Wright? I still don't get that one. I guess he isn't white enough or something?

I think Michael Richards could provide you with a punchline.

Joe Seahawk
04-14-2008, 09:39 PM
:)

THE PEOPLE GATHERED AROUND BARAK IN GREAT MULTITUDES AND BARAK STRETCHED FORTH HIS HANDS AND SPAKE UNTO THEM SAYING, "My hope I giveth unto thee for change, my change I giveth unto thee for hope. Change for hope and hope for change, dost I giveth to thee, to change the hope thereof for changing the change that thou hast hoped for. The change I speak of, thou doest not know, but believe me when I say, I will change your hope into change. Spare change? May haps. Hope for thee to change the change thereof? Possibly."
And a girl in the crowd wast stricken with dizziness and Barak saith unto the crowd, "move thee hence and give this child some water."
And one in the crowd did as Barak commanded and she was healed at that very hour, and the crowd clapped their hands and were amazed at Barak's power to heal the child. 9 times did Barak perform this miracle at 9 different places, and the crowds were amazed at his power.
After the miracle was wrought Barak again spake unto the people and saith, "Change for changes sake, and hope for hope, for I will come unto thee and fill the hole that is in thy soul wrought by the "white Devil" Bush, for it is I who am the hope changer,that will change the world, and bring thee hope".
After this was said, the people were amazed at his words, and they sayest amongst themselves "How is it that this man speaks so much and yet sayest nothing, yet we believith in that which he speaketh of?".

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=193

Logical
04-14-2008, 09:49 PM
Does Obama ever feel guilty or is he unerringly correct in his judgments in a way that he apparently doesn't think any of the rest of us are?

BigOlChiefsFan dropped a link (http://www.slate.com/id/2188487/) to an excellent blog article on this very point.I was only speaking to the Rev Wright incident. I am pretty sure he has apologized for what he said last week. Evidently some talk show hosts and Hillary don't want to let it go.

alanm
04-14-2008, 09:51 PM
Forget the elitist and patronizing tone of Obama's statement for a minute. What I find interesting about this particular quote is what it can tell us about Obama's true political opinions. Notice how Obama groups those who are pro-gun and religious (presumably religious conservatives) with those who are racist. The other enlightening aspect of this statement is that it suggests that Obama's "skepticism" regarding trade agreements is somewhat less than sincere. Of course, this latter point is consistent with what Obama's economic advisor told the Canadians a while back so it's not all that surprising.
He's a chameleon who plays up to whatever audience is in front of him. He'll give the audience whatever they want to hear. I'm trying to give the guy a fair shake but there's just something about him. :shake:
I'm just sitting back watching it all unfold in this election. All I'm certain of at this point is that the Clinton's are some devious backstabbing mutha f*ckers.

Donger
04-14-2008, 09:57 PM
I wonder how many folks who are Barack Hussein supporters wouldn't be if he were white?

alanm
04-14-2008, 09:58 PM
Well, I did already answer it. Why should Barack Hussein tell me what I want or need? I say this as a non-gun owner. If he looks like he could win the GE, I'll probably go and buy a few before the banning.
Wise man.

banyon
04-14-2008, 09:58 PM
I wonder how many folks who are Barack Hussein supporters wouldn't be if he were white?

Plenty. Have you seen Hillary?


Not to mention the miniscule followings Sharpton and Jesse Jackson drew by being black.

Logical
04-14-2008, 10:01 PM
patteeu

You might want to let the Blog author know he is misusing the word epiphenomena, which he appears to be very enamored in using.

banyon
04-14-2008, 10:04 PM
patteeu

You might want to let the Blog author know he is misusing the word epiphenomena, which he appears to be very enamored in using.

Seriously? I don't know if i agree with him, but he seems to be using the word in the correctly intended sense to me.

HolmeZz
04-14-2008, 10:07 PM
I wonder how many folks who are Barack Hussein supporters wouldn't be if he were white?

I wonder how many folks who aren't Barack Obama supporters would be if he were white?

patteeu
04-14-2008, 10:18 PM
Seriously? I don't know if i agree with him, but he seems to be using the word in the correctly intended sense to me.

I agree.

Logical
04-14-2008, 11:42 PM
Seriously? I don't know if i agree with him, but he seems to be using the word in the correctly intended sense to me.

Banyon, you are someone I respect in regards to use of vocabulary. Here are the definitions I found. I will be happy to admit my error if you can show me how it fits in every case. Note I am not saying he is always using it wrong.

1: upon <epiphyte> : besides <epiphenomenon> : attached to <epididymis> : over <epicenter> : outer <epiblast> : after <epigenesis>2 a: chemical entity related to (such) another <epimer> b: chemical entity distinguished from (such) another by having a bridge connection

as an example in a way he doesn't regard, say, his own views as epiphenomena.

ClevelandBronco
04-15-2008, 01:50 AM
I hate freaking buzzwords.

Paradigm. (Fortunately not overused anymore, but it was the first one I hated, so it holds a special place in my colon.)

Gravitas. (Fortunately only pulled out for special political occasions.)

Conflated. (Some of you guys are seriously on the brink with this one.)

If any of you start using "epiphenomena" on a regular basis, I'm going to nuke this whole freaking place.

You've been warned.

Guru
04-15-2008, 01:58 AM
I hate freaking buzzwords.

Paradigm. (Fortunately not overused anymore, but it was the first one I hated, so it holds a special place in my colon.)

Gravitas. (Fortunately only pulled out for special political occasions.)

Conflated. (Some of you guys are seriously on the brink with this one.)

If any of you start using "epiphenomena" on a regular basis, I'm going to nuke this whole freaking place.

You've been warned.

You just dared them. What are you thinking?

ClevelandBronco
04-15-2008, 02:23 AM
You just dared them. What are you thinking?

Damn. I wasn't thinking. I should have gone to bed.

HolmeZz
04-15-2008, 04:36 AM
Obama can fight the 'elitism' tag from Clinton and McCain rather easily. All he's got to do when he's out on the trail is rhetorically ask the both of them if they'd like to trade incomes.

HonestChieffan
04-15-2008, 05:57 AM
Obama can fight the 'elitism' tag from Clinton and McCain rather easily. All he's got to do when he's out on the trail is rhetorically ask the both of them if they'd like to trade incomes.

He doesnt need to. He has plans to take their income after he is made el presidente.

patteeu
04-15-2008, 06:55 AM
Banyon, you are someone I respect in regards to use of vocabulary. Here are the definitions I found. I will be happy to admit my error if you can show me how it fits in every case. Note I am not saying he is always using it wrong.

1: upon <epiphyte> : besides <epiphenomenon> : attached to <epididymis> : over <epicenter> : outer <epiblast> : after <epigenesis>2 a: chemical entity related to (such) another <epimer> b: chemical entity distinguished from (such) another by having a bridge connection

as an example in a way he doesn't regard, say, his own views as epiphenomena.

Let's shift the paradigm a little bit so we don't conflate one definition with another. I know that you asked banyon because the guy has gravitas, but maybe my answer will suffice until he returns.

Try this definition instead:

A secondary phenomenon that results from and accompanies another: "Exploitation of one social class or ethnic group by another [is] an epiphenomenon of real differences in power between social groups" (Harper's).

In the example you ask about, the author is saying that Obama doesn't consider his own views to be derivative. Instead, he sees them as directly based on reality. By contrast, those rural folk cling to guns, religion, racism, xenophobia, and protectionism as a result of their bitterness. If the bitterness could be removed (presumably by an Obama big government program), those undesirable secondary impulses would go away too. If rural folk clinged to guns simply because they valued hunting and self protection, lifting them out of their bitterness wouldn't have any effect on their gun fetish because the fetish wouldn't be an epiphenomenon. Instead it would be a value based directly on reality (like Obama's values!).

banyon
04-15-2008, 07:12 AM
Let's shift the paradigm a little bit so we don't conflate one definition with another. I know that you asked banyon because the guy has gravitas, but maybe my answer will suffice until he returns.

Try this definition instead:



In the example you ask about, the author is saying that Obama doesn't consider his own views to be derivative. Instead, he sees them as directly based on reality. By contrast, those rural folk cling to guns, religion, racism, xenophobia, and protectionism as a result of their bitterness. If the bitterness could be removed (presumably by an Obama big government program), those undesirable secondary impulses would go away too. If rural folk clinged to guns simply because they valued hunting and self protection, lifting them out of their bitterness wouldn't have any effect on their gun fetish because the fetish wouldn't be an epiphenomenon. Instead it would be a value based directly on reality (like Obama's values!).

That's pretty good, even if it doesn't have "gravitas". :)

memyselfI
04-15-2008, 08:08 AM
The whole episode has exposed Baaarack as the cynical politician he truly is. He didn't sound hopeful he sounded bitter. It didn't take long for him to get there, did it?

He had fooled many people for a long time but I think this will open more eyes to his doublespeak.

banyon
04-15-2008, 08:10 AM
The whole episode has exposed Baaarack as the cynical politician he truly is. He didn't sound hopeful he sounded bitter. It didn't take long for him to get there, did it?

He had fooled many people for a long time but I think this will open more eyes to his doublespeak.

This post makes even less sense than usual. He didn't "sound bitter" he called people bitter. It's pretty tough to call people bitter and sound bitter at the same time (though perhaps you could pull it off).

memyselfI
04-15-2008, 08:32 AM
This post makes even less sense than usual. He didn't "sound bitter" he called people bitter. It's pretty tough to call people bitter and sound bitter at the same time (though perhaps you could pull it off).

Ah, the Messiah of light and hope observes that people who are not inclined to follow him are bitter...

gee, the audacity.

Then, like in the debate, he gets all catty and bitchy with his Annie Oakley bit. The guy is snake.

jettio
04-15-2008, 08:59 AM
Hillary is desperate if she thinks some bootleg recording of something that is not that big of a deal is some kind of lifeline to her candidacy.

Obama the community organizer and state senator that made friends in Springfield with colleagues who did not go to Ivy league schools knows how to treat people.

Hillary has tried to demean Obama's accomplishment of serving as a state senator, and now she wants to say that he is in the ivory tower, huh?

And McCain the son and grandson of admirals who is a legacy into the Naval Academy, graduates fifth from the bottom of his class and still gets to be a naval aviator. He then marries into money after stepping out on his first wife. That is a real regular joe six pack.

Logical
04-15-2008, 10:08 AM
Let's shift the paradigm a little bit so we don't conflate one definition with another. I know that you asked banyon because the guy has gravitas, but maybe my answer will suffice until he returns.

Try this definition instead:



In the example you ask about, the author is saying that Obama doesn't consider his own views to be derivative. Instead, he sees them as directly based on reality. By contrast, those rural folk cling to guns, religion, racism, xenophobia, and protectionism as a result of their bitterness. If the bitterness could be removed (presumably by an Obama big government program), those undesirable secondary impulses would go away too. If rural folk clinged to guns simply because they valued hunting and self protection, lifting them out of their bitterness wouldn't have any effect on their gun fetish because the fetish wouldn't be an epiphenomenon. Instead it would be a value based directly on reality (like Obama's values!).

If that is a proper definition and it mght be of course he is using it properly. I don't remember Harper's publishing a dictionary, but perhaps it is more a lexicon type of word in this instance. In that case thanks.

patteeu
04-15-2008, 10:21 AM
If that is a proper definition and it mght be of course he is using it properly. I don't remember Harper's publishing a dictionary, but perhaps it is more a lexicon type of word in this instance. In that case thanks.

No problem. I'm not sure what the "Harpers" meant, but it was actual an American Heritage Dictionary entry from dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/epiphenomena).

Ultra Peanut
04-15-2008, 11:52 AM
By conflating these epiphenomena, we can shift the entire paradigm and lend more gravitas to this discussion.

Ah, the Messiah of light and hope observes that people who are not inclined to follow him are bitter...

gee, the audacity.

Then, like in the debate, he gets all catty and bitchy with his Annie Oakley bit. The guy is snake.I love this, because it shows exactly how willing you are to cast reality aside completely in some sort of misguided effort to make a point.

But yeah, there certainly aren't people from blue-collar backgrounds donating to him at rates of $10 and $25 a pop. He just looks down on everyone who's not rich, despite the whole "wasn't wealthy until he wrote a successful book and is still paying off student loans to this very day" thing. He just doesn't identify with the little people like Hillary and McCain do.

Baby Lee
04-15-2008, 12:09 PM
Hillary is desperate if she thinks some bootleg recording of something that is not that big of a deal is some kind of lifeline to her candidacy.

Obama the community organizer and state senator that made friends in Springfield with colleagues who did not go to Ivy league schools knows how to treat people.

Hillary has tried to demean Obama's accomplishment of serving as a state senator, and now she wants to say that he is in the ivory tower, huh?

And McCain the son and grandson of admirals who is a legacy into the Naval Academy, graduates fifth from the bottom of his class and still gets to be a naval aviator. He then marries into money after stepping out on his first wife. That is a real regular joe six pack.
I thought the Kennedys taught us it's not how patrician your background, but how you relate to your fellow man, that provided the measure of your elitism. :shrug:

Ultra Peanut
04-15-2008, 12:14 PM
Obama the community organizer and state senator that made friends in Springfield with colleagues who did not go to Ivy league schools knows how to treat people.

Hillary has tried to demean Obama's accomplishment of serving as a state senator, and now she wants to say that he is in the ivory tower, huh?Hey there, pal. Hillary was doing THE PEOPLE'S WORK at Wal-Mart while B. Hussein Obama was gallivanting about Chicago as a community organizer.

NewChief
04-15-2008, 12:22 PM
Hey there, pal. Hillary was doing THE PEOPLE'S WORK at Wal-Mart while B. Hussein Obama was gallivanting about Chicago as a community organizer.

Hillary's the type of woman I want to toss back a few shots with. I bet Barack doesn't even toss back shots. In fact, I bet he doesn't even drink, being Muslim and all.

Baby Lee
04-15-2008, 12:29 PM
Hillary's the type of woman I want to toss back a few shots with. I bet Barack doesn't even toss back shots. In fact, I bet he doesn't even drink, being Muslim and all.

Hope you like Crown Royal.

Duck Dog
04-15-2008, 12:54 PM
Not you. Not me. All of us.



naw, it's just you. I'm just going by what I know of you.

HolmeZz
04-15-2008, 12:55 PM
naw, it's just you. I'm just going by what I know of you.

I liked you better when you were Ugly Duck.

Baby Lee
04-15-2008, 01:15 PM
I'm Hillary Clinton, and I approved this message

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jettio
04-15-2008, 01:31 PM
I thought the Kennedys taught us it's not how patrician your background, but how you relate to your fellow man, that provided the measure of your elitism. :shrug:


I think Obama has a healthy regard for people, if he is a high achiever that tried to help less fortunate people in his life, elitist would not be an appropriate word.

Seems like Hillary is trying to use the word elitist to call Obama a snob, and that won't go anywhere.

The Clintons are the ones that came up with the line about Paula Jones and what happens when you drag a $100 bill past a trailer park.

If someone who wants to donate money to Obama asks him why he is not getting more votes from a certain demographic, Obama would be better off saying that he is going to try his best to reach those voters. He should not try to rationalize or overanalyze the situation.

But, Obama looks like he is going to win the whole thing because he is the best candidate left for the 2008 election.

All these mini-brouhahas do is get the squawkers squawking and then the next time Obama is on the TV, he does so much better than the squawkers and makes so much more sense than the people trying to knock him down that he ends up ahead of where he was.

Tomorrow's debate ought to be interesting. How exactly is Hillary going to handle being confronted about her Bosnia exagerration? Seems to me that Obama could knock her off her pins, but he will probably play it real cool on that.

Hillary will probably come off like an opportunist trying to make hay off of exagerrating her mischaracterization of Obama just like she exagerrates Bosnia and anything else.

Logical
04-15-2008, 01:37 PM
No problem. I'm not sure what the "Harpers" meant, but it was actual an American Heritage Dictionary entry from dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/epiphenomena).Thanks, I am going to have to start using dictionary.com they seem to keep a more up to date set of definions than merriam webster online.