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View Full Version : Gas problems solved: biggest oil find in 30 years?


BigVE
04-14-2008, 07:37 PM
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/1710862

New joint oil find in Brazil
Apr 15, 2008 9:50 AM

An offshore find by Brazilian state oil company Petrobras in partnership with BG Group and Repsol-YPF may be the world's biggest discovery in 30 years, the head of the National Petroleum Agency said.

Haroldo Lima told reporters the find, known as Carioca, could contain 33 billion barrels of oil equivalent, five times the recent giant Tupi discovery. That would further boost Brazil's prospects as an important world oil province and the source of new crude in the Americas.

Shares in Petrobras, which said studies on the find continued and would not comment on the figure, soared on the news. They were trading 5.7% higher at 83 reais in the late afternoon, after retreating somewhat from gains of more than 7%.

"It could be the world's biggest discovery in the past 30 years, and the world's third-biggest currently active field," Lima, head of the government's oil and fuel market regulator, told reporters at an industry event in Rio de Janeiro.

He would not say whether the preliminary reserve estimate was recoverable or in-place. Recoverable reserves can constitute less than a third of in-place reserves.

Last year Petrobras put Tupi's recoverable reserves at between 5 billion and 8 billion barrels of oil equivalent, most of it light oil.

Lima said his data came from Petrobras at an informal level.

Petrobras tested one well at Carioca last year and is still drilling another. The company made the Tupi recoverable reserve estimate based on tests from two wells.

Petrobras said in a statement the second well had not yet reached the subsalt level and "more conclusive data on the potential of the block will be known after the evaluation process is finished."

Find could be 'really huge'

Analysts said the estimate was probably still very preliminary, although it did not contrast with some geologists' forecasts made in the past.

"It's a very relevant number, basically triples the reserves. But it still seems a little premature to have a precise number while they are drilling a second well," said Felipe Cunha, an analyst with Brascan bank in Rio de Janeiro.

The Carioca area lies west of Tupi in the prolific Santos basin, off the coast of Sao Paulo state. BG has a 30% stake in the project and Repsol 25%.

"It's subsalt, and we knew there were big expectations for the subsalt cluster in addition to Tupi. But, if this is confirmed, it's really huge," said Sophie Aldebert, associate director with Cambridge Energy Research Association in Brazil.

"With that size, you'd have plenty of gains of scale that could easily offset the subsalt geological challenges," she added. The challenges include shifting salt clusters that require reinforced piping and producing in deep waters from huge depths under the ocean floor.

Geologists had long voiced the theory that Tupi could have an even bigger neighbor containing light oil or natural gas. If the reserves are confirmed, Brazil could jump into the top 10 oil countries by reserves, surpassing nations like Nigeria.

Petrobras also has said previously it sees good prospects for major oil finds in the subsalt areas in the Campos and Espirito Santo basins north of Santos, but it is focusing mainly on Santos at the moment.

Most of Petrobras crude comes from heavy-oil Campos basin fields, but recent subsalt discoveries could make Brazil a major producer of higher quality oil.

The company expects to start an extended production test at Tupi early next year and then crank up a 100,000 barrels per day pilot project there in late 2010 or early 2011. Analysts say, however, the costly subsalt development can take more time than Petrobras expects.

Ari Chi3fs
04-14-2008, 07:46 PM
Petrobas, stock?

Guru
04-14-2008, 07:48 PM
It won't matter.

Mr. Laz
04-14-2008, 07:49 PM
sounds good to me .... not the middle east


they will still find some excuse to keep prices up though

Bowser
04-14-2008, 07:59 PM
When do we invade?

Brock
04-14-2008, 08:01 PM
WE'RE SAVED

Guru
04-14-2008, 08:01 PM
sounds good to me .... not the middle east


they will still find some excuse to keep prices up though

Nah, the save the earth people will keep anyone from utilizing it.

KCChiefsMan
04-14-2008, 08:02 PM
so Brazil is now an axis of evil?

Mr. Flopnuts
04-14-2008, 08:04 PM
so Brazil is now an axis of evil?

LMAO Soon. Soon.

Bugeater
04-14-2008, 08:08 PM
sounds good to me .... not the middle east


they will still find some excuse to keep prices up though

Don't worry, the "not enough refineries" excuse will be good for several more decades.

chiefforlife
04-14-2008, 08:17 PM
Shortly after the press release on the Huge oil discovery, it was also noted that Brazil is believed to have WMD's.

StcChief
04-14-2008, 08:28 PM
More supply = good. Just might take a while to get it running.

Plenty of dead plant life around warm equator area for 1000s of years

Donger
04-14-2008, 08:30 PM
But, but, I heard that peak oil has happened? How can this be?

Boon
04-14-2008, 08:42 PM
When do we invade?

LMAO

Smoke
04-14-2008, 09:00 PM
Hot women AND oil?

I may defect...Viva Brazil!!

cdcox
04-14-2008, 09:02 PM
So if you retired at age 67 with $100,000 in the bank and won $3,000 in the lottery, would you think all your financial problems were sovled?

bowener
04-14-2008, 09:04 PM
well, I guess GM can reshelve the electric car again.

Frazod
04-14-2008, 09:05 PM
Do the Brazilians hate us yet?

Boon
04-14-2008, 09:49 PM
Do the Brazilians hate us yet?

Only those who smoke.

Pic
04-14-2008, 10:13 PM
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/Picturesspeaklouder/bush.jpg

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-15-2008, 12:06 AM
They've had cars that have run on sugar alcohol for years, and they get a ton of their power from hydroelectricity.

It will be interesting to see how they handle this discovery.

Bwana
04-15-2008, 06:54 AM
So if you retired at age 67 with $100,000 in the bank and won $3,000 in the lottery, would you think all your financial problems were sovled?


Well said, not to mention the wicked uncle who hates your guts, turns out to have the rights to the $3000 lottery ticket.

oldandslow
04-15-2008, 07:08 AM
But, but, I heard that peak oil has happened? How can this be?

Please Donger...this won't even meet the new demand India has placed on the market for a year...

By the way...how 'bout that price slippage. 111.76 last time I looked.

Demonpenz
04-15-2008, 07:37 AM
bend
over
and
take
it
up
the tail
pipe
again!

oldandslow
04-15-2008, 08:45 AM
Oh, and by the way, they just denied the story...

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/15/content_7978866.htm

Brazil's Petrobras denies giant oil field discovery


www.chinaview.cn 2008-04-15 09:15:36 Print

RIO DE JANEIRO, April 14 (Xinhua) -- Brazil's state-owned oil company Petrobras denied Monday an earlier announcement of the discovery of a gigantic oil and gas field in southeastern Brazil.

The salt layer of the second well drilled in block BMS-9 of the announced oil field has not even been reached yet, and the huge field, if it does exist, lies below the salt layer, the company said in a statement.

The announcement of the discovery had been made earlier Monday by the director of the government's National Oil and Gas Agency Haroldo Lima. The agency is in charge of regulating the oil and gas sector in the country.

The oil field in the Santos Basin in southeastern Brazil appears to be the world's third-largest oil and gas reserve, bearing an estimated volume of 33 billion barrels, Lima said.

Petrobras' statement said that the first well drilled in the area in September 2007 has produced promising results, which have been already released to the market and still need to be confirmed by further drillings.

The drilling of the second well started on March 22 and has not yet reached the necessary depth to reach the salt layer that lies above the reserve. The layer is two km wide, according to the statement.

"The exploitation activity includes the drilling of new wells, long-lasting proofs and new geological studies to ensure the broadness of the discovery, at the end of which the results will be informed to the market," the statement added.

The Securities and Exchange Commission of Brazil, which supervises the operation of the stock market in the country, criticized the announcement by the ANP director, which prompted a sudden climb of Petrobras' stocks on the Sao Paulo Stock Exchange (Bovespa).

The release of relevant information made by "outsiders" is "harmful" to the market's operation, the commission said.

Demonpenz
04-15-2008, 08:47 AM
stairway denied!

John_Wayne
04-15-2008, 09:01 AM
They keep finding the largest oil reserve in history once or twice each year. This just shows that there is enough oil to power the needs of earth's entire population for thousands of years. There's no oil crisis. There's no oil shortage. There's a shortage of common sense. There's a glut of lefties and greenies. Oil prices are high and the economy is crummy due to the liberals and tree huggers. U.S. oil companies just need to be allowed to drill for oil off the coast of Brasil, in N. Dakota, in the Gulf of Mexico, in the Carribean sea and, especially in ANWAR. Then we need to build several oil refineries. We could have $.75 cent gasonline. While we're on the subject, the Govt. could lower the tax on gas, required only 3 formulas of gas, rather than 47 different formulas. Both would lower the price of gas for Americans. Lastly, we should build more nuclear energy facilities. Our country could be totally energy self sufficient and the economy would soar. Blame the liberals and the greenies for $3.50 gas.

oldandslow
04-15-2008, 09:25 AM
They keep finding the largest oil reserve in history once or twice each year. This just shows that there is enough oil to power the needs of earth's entire population for thousands of years. There's no oil crisis. There's no oil shortage. There's a shortage of common sense. There's a glut of lefties and greenies. Oil prices are high and the economy is crummy due to the liberals and tree huggers. U.S. oil companies just need to be allowed to drill for oil off the coast of Brasil, in N. Dakota, in the Gulf of Mexico, in the Carribean sea and, especially in ANWAR. Then we need to build several oil refineries. We could have $.75 cent gasonline. While we're on the subject, the Govt. could lower the tax on gas, required only 3 formulas of gas, rather than 47 different formulas. Both would lower the price of gas for Americans. Lastly, we should build more nuclear energy facilities. Our country could be totally energy self sufficient and the economy would soar. Blame the liberals and the greenies for $3.50 gas.


I would love to see some math to validate ANY of the claims you just made. ANWAR, for example, has enough oil to run the US for 180 days. That's it.

jidar
04-15-2008, 10:04 AM
They keep finding the largest oil reserve in history once or twice each year. This just shows that there is enough oil to power the needs of earth's entire population for thousands of years. There's no oil crisis. There's no oil shortage. There's a shortage of common sense. There's a glut of lefties and greenies. Oil prices are high and the economy is crummy due to the liberals and tree huggers. U.S. oil companies just need to be allowed to drill for oil off the coast of Brasil, in N. Dakota, in the Gulf of Mexico, in the Carribean sea and, especially in ANWAR. Then we need to build several oil refineries. We could have $.75 cent gasonline. While we're on the subject, the Govt. could lower the tax on gas, required only 3 formulas of gas, rather than 47 different formulas. Both would lower the price of gas for Americans. Lastly, we should build more nuclear energy facilities. Our country could be totally energy self sufficient and the economy would soar. Blame the liberals and the greenies for $3.50 gas.

Pretty much all complete bullshit, every last word.

Lzen
04-15-2008, 10:12 AM
When do we invade?

LOL

Wa-Z
04-15-2008, 10:52 AM
The minute they announced it John D. Rockefeller was giving them a hard time...now they are denying it.

Donger
04-15-2008, 11:02 AM
Please Donger...this won't even meet the new demand India has placed on the market for a year...

By the way...how 'bout that price slippage. 111.76 last time I looked.

Meh, I doubt the field's as big as they say, anyway.

I still say that the fundamentals don't support $100+

xbarretx
04-15-2008, 11:04 AM
Meh, I doubt the field's as big as they say, anyway.

I still say that the fundamentals don't support $100+

thats what we and the other countries of the world say as well. im so Glad Ben thinks global inflation can fight off a Dam RECESSION!!!!!! :cuss:

PhillyChiefFan
04-15-2008, 12:53 PM
Don't worry, the "not enough refineries" excuse will be good for several more decades.

In all honesty, because I have NO idea, but how long does it take to build a few refineries?? I realize Katrina took out some, but if those were the achillies heal to our dependency on oil, why was that fact overlooked, and is the govn't trying to build more refineries to replace those lost??

I'm all for alternative energy but for the time being, my car still runs on 3.25/gal gasoline.

oldandslow
04-15-2008, 12:55 PM
Meh, I doubt the field's as big as they say, anyway.

I still say that the fundamentals don't support $100+

And I say they do...

BTW, Russia just added another nail to the coffin...

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=225762

Russian oil production has peaked: Lukoil executive
04-15-2008, 01h35
LONDON (AFP)


Russian oil production peaked last year, the vice-president of Lukoil, the country's second largest oil group, said in an interview published Tuesday.

Speaking to the Financial Times, Leonid Fedun said Russia's oil production of 10 million barrels a day was the most he would see "in his lifetime".

He added that in terms of production in Russia's oil-rich western Siberia region, "the period of intense oil production (growth) is over" and compared the region to the North Sea and Mexico, where oil production has declined.

oldandslow
04-15-2008, 12:58 PM
In all honesty, because I have NO idea, but how long does it take to build a few refineries?? I realize Katrina took out some, but if those were the achillies heal to our dependency on oil, why was that fact overlooked, and is the govn't trying to build more refineries to replace those lost??

I'm all for alternative energy but for the time being, my car still runs on 3.25/gal gasoline.

The "no new refineries" argument is a red herring. We have been adding new capacity to old refineries at the rate of 200,000 bpd for the past 30 years.

xbarretx
04-15-2008, 01:02 PM
In all honesty, because I have NO idea, but how long does it take to build a few refineries?? I realize Katrina took out some, but if those were the achillies heal to our dependency on oil, why was that fact overlooked, and is the govn't trying to build more refineries to replace those lost??

I'm all for alternative energy but for the time being, my car still runs on 3.25/gal gasoline.

http://losangeles.broowaha.com/article.php?id=1807

Build More Refineries? Why Bother?

George W. Bush needs to leave the environmental issues to the tree-hugging, Birkenstock-wearing, bong smoking, hippie freaks. So does Congress for that matter. It seems that while we’re all running around harping on immigration and how the latest versions of the amnesty bill are still not what the people want, Congress and the White House have been hammering out legislation to require the use of biofuels that will cut America’s consumption of pure gasoline.

Oil industry executives are seeing the government trying to cut their profits, not by regulating the price of gasoline, but by mandating that biofuel alternatives cut gasoline consumption by 20 percent. Now granted this all sounds like a great idea on the surface, but underneath there is a dirty little game being played and it is a game that most Americans will see striking their wallets and hard.

Pressure on automakers to build more fuel-efficient cars and for development of alternative fuels, oil companies are beginning to rethink their plans to expand America’s refining capabilities. This rethinking is poised to ensure that consumers do not see price relief at the pump for quite some time and may even continue to allow oil companies to continue to post record profits. News like this when Americans are already facing a national average near $3.00 per gallon – the highest gasoline has ever been in the history of the automobile – are sure to cause massive outcries from the people.

By demanding the production of biofuels and the inclusion of ethanol into gasoline, Congress and the White House are giving the oil industry the perfect excuse to reduce or cancel all together plans to increase America refining capacity. Mergers among the major oil companies have already been blamed for creating an atmosphere with no desire to increase refining capabilities whatsoever. Requiring alternative fuels by 2015 and 2022 are basically leaving the refining industry in a position to respond to demands for increase in production saying, “ain’t happenin’.” One oil industry insider has commented that these alternative fuels will bring about the need to export gasoline because America will actually reach a point where it produces more than it consumes. Sounds like a great scenario. Problem is, there’s a lot of time between 2007 and 2015 – eight years to be exact and in that time a lot of people are going feel the squeeze at the pump.

Oil companies should have to increase their output to keep up with consumption. This nonsense that they cannot do so currently is a bunch of fertilizer. No one in America believes for one minute that there is a shortage of gasoline. Everyone believes there is major price gouging going on. Some even contend that oil companies are getting kickbacks from the government for keeping the price so high. It all has to do with how motor fuel taxes are collected.

But is anyone surprised that the oil industry isn’t going to open their checkbooks and pay for refinery upgrades to increase production when in a mere eight years, the gravy train will go away? The best part of this whole scheme (tongue now firmly planted in cheek) is that in reality, the alternative fuels aren’t going to materialize and American consumers will be stuck staring at $5.00/gallon gasoline by 2012 (tongue removed from cheek).

The American consumer isn’t as stupid as the oil industry or politicians would like to believe. The average American knows what is going on, even if the fools in Washington, Houston, Bartlesville and elsewhere think otherwise. America is still waiting for the next Thomas Edison to come along and invent a car that will run on water – salt or fresh and have the kind of horsepower Americans knew and loved with the muscle cars of the 1960’s. If necessity is the mother of invention, then it’s time to induce labor here because America’s need for an alternative to gasoline is past due.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

PhillyChiefFan
04-15-2008, 01:18 PM
Thanks for that, its pretty eye opening. I have often wondered about that, and it makes complete sense to me, if they have a business to protect and they know their product is going to go the way of the buggy whip, then why would they spend their profits on refitting.

I also have wondered if these companies pay off or eliminate any breakthroughs in science to protect the future use of oil.

xbarretx
04-15-2008, 01:29 PM
Thanks for that, its pretty eye opening. I have often wondered about that, and it makes complete sense to me, if they have a business to protect and they know their product is going to go the way of the buggy whip, then why would they spend their profits on refitting.

I also have wondered if these companies pay off or eliminate any breakthroughs in science to protect the future use of oil.

your very welcome

now i wouldnt say that, b/c then once we do run out of oil...... then what? all those millions and billions in oil stocks dry up with two snapps up and a circle. so maybe surpress is a better word to use? :hmmm:

http://www.agoodhost.com/flashkit/twosnapsup.jpg

Uncle_Ted
04-15-2008, 01:49 PM
Oh, and by the way, they just denied the story...

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/15/content_7978866.htm

Brazil's Petrobras denies giant oil field discovery



Of course they're denying it ... I'm sure that right about now they're scared out of their minds the announcement would draw Cheney's attention to Brazil's ties to Al Qaeda and their WMD programs. :Rader:
ROFLROFLROFL

PhillyChiefFan
04-15-2008, 01:52 PM
your very welcome

now i wouldnt say that, b/c then once we do run out of oil...... then what? all those millions and billions in oil stocks dry up with two snapps up and a circle. so maybe surpress is a better word to use? :hmmm:

http://www.agoodhost.com/flashkit/twosnapsup.jpg

Strategic Delay perhaps?!?!

John_Wayne
04-15-2008, 01:55 PM
I would love to see some math to validate ANY of the claims you just made. ANWAR, for example, has enough oil to run the US for 180 days. That's it. It's estimated that the oil found at ANWAR would be the 2nd largest behind the oil reserve in Saudi Arabia. As with any oil find, we won't know the exact amount until they drill. There's also been a massive oil reserve found in North Dakota. We just need to start drilling. What are you afraid of?

xbarretx
04-15-2008, 02:10 PM
Strategic Delay perhaps?!?!

i bet, if we can make cars that go 7000 mpg then we can make a car with more MPG than this crap in the 20's ..... COME ON!!!!!!!!!

granted i know those high mileage cars are like super lightweight and maybe seats one person but still....it can be done.

oldandslow
04-15-2008, 02:33 PM
It's estimated that the oil found at ANWAR would be the 2nd largest behind the oil reserve in Saudi Arabia. As with any oil find, we won't know the exact amount until they drill. There's also been a massive oil reserve found in North Dakota. We just need to start drilling. What are you afraid of?

Experts place the Anwar estimate at around 10 - 15 billion barrels. Part of that cannot be obtained with present tech.

At present consumption rates, that would run the world for a very short period of time.

There is less in North Dakota than in Anwar - and ND is shale and oil sands.

You just don't get it. Of the top 20 oil fields in the world, over half are in decline.

We either conserve, change lifestyle habits, and find new tech or we are screwed. Period. Presently we use 23 barrels of oil per person per year. That's simply not sustainable.

xbarretx
04-15-2008, 02:50 PM
We either conserve, change lifestyle habits, and find new tech or we are screwed. Period. Presently we use 23 barrels of oil per person per year. That's simply not sustainable.

i agree but price is overly inflated for current *known* supply.

besides i DONT want people thinking theres lots of oil. i want them to KNOW its a finite resource and we need to work on alternatives NOW... not in 10 years... not in 20, not next year....not next week... :cuss:ing now

Donger
04-15-2008, 03:00 PM
I would love to see some math to validate ANY of the claims you just made. ANWAR, for example, has enough oil to run the US for 180 days. That's it.

Close. The low estimates would power us for 215 days, IIRC. Year and a half on the high estimates.

But, no one that I know of is suggesting ANWR being 100% of our supply, just as a supplement. The number that I've seen used is for ANWR to make up 5% of our consumption. If that were to happen, it would last ~25 years.

It's foolish for us not to drill it, IMO.

beavis
04-15-2008, 03:19 PM
They keep finding the largest oil reserve in history once or twice each year. This just shows that there is enough oil to power the needs of earth's entire population for thousands of years. There's no oil crisis. There's no oil shortage. There's a shortage of common sense. There's a glut of lefties and greenies. Oil prices are high and the economy is crummy due to the liberals and tree huggers. U.S. oil companies just need to be allowed to drill for oil off the coast of Brasil, in N. Dakota, in the Gulf of Mexico, in the Carribean sea and, especially in ANWAR. Then we need to build several oil refineries. We could have $.75 cent gasonline. While we're on the subject, the Govt. could lower the tax on gas, required only 3 formulas of gas, rather than 47 different formulas. Both would lower the price of gas for Americans. Lastly, we should build more nuclear energy facilities. Our country could be totally energy self sufficient and the economy would soar. Blame the liberals and the greenies for $3.50 gas.

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

go bowe
04-15-2008, 03:20 PM
Nah, the save the earth people will keep anyone from utilizing it.
do they have earth people in brazil?

xbarretx
04-15-2008, 03:28 PM
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

you could of just said no

http://media.npr.org/blog/mar/billymadison200.jpg

Calcountry
04-15-2008, 03:51 PM
But, but, I heard that peak oil has happened? How can this be?
Then ther is the theory, that oil is not organic in nature, but inorganic. As such, it is being replenished by geological forces beneath the crystaline basin and is oozing up to the crust through geologic formations, fissures, and such.

Shhhhh, wouldn't want the populace to get the idea that oil is plentiful, not running out, and not causing global warming, that would screw profits right into the ground.

We Big Oil execs LOVE environmentalists, we really do.

Calcountry
04-15-2008, 03:55 PM
http://losangeles.broowaha.com/article.php?id=1807

Build More Refineries? Why Bother?

George W. Bush needs to leave the environmental issues to the tree-hugging, Birkenstock-wearing, bong smoking, hippie freaks. So does Congress for that matter. It seems that while weíre all running around harping on immigration and how the latest versions of the amnesty bill are still not what the people want, Congress and the White House have been hammering out legislation to require the use of biofuels that will cut Americaís consumption of pure gasoline.

Oil industry executives are seeing the government trying to cut their profits, not by regulating the price of gasoline, but by mandating that biofuel alternatives cut gasoline consumption by 20 percent. Now granted this all sounds like a great idea on the surface, but underneath there is a dirty little game being played and it is a game that most Americans will see striking their wallets and hard.

Pressure on automakers to build more fuel-efficient cars and for development of alternative fuels, oil companies are beginning to rethink their plans to expand Americaís refining capabilities. This rethinking is poised to ensure that consumers do not see price relief at the pump for quite some time and may even continue to allow oil companies to continue to post record profits. News like this when Americans are already facing a national average near $3.00 per gallon Ė the highest gasoline has ever been in the history of the automobile Ė are sure to cause massive outcries from the people.

By demanding the production of biofuels and the inclusion of ethanol into gasoline, Congress and the White House are giving the oil industry the perfect excuse to reduce or cancel all together plans to increase America refining capacity. Mergers among the major oil companies have already been blamed for creating an atmosphere with no desire to increase refining capabilities whatsoever. Requiring alternative fuels by 2015 and 2022 are basically leaving the refining industry in a position to respond to demands for increase in production saying, ďainít happeniní.Ē One oil industry insider has commented that these alternative fuels will bring about the need to export gasoline because America will actually reach a point where it produces more than it consumes. Sounds like a great scenario. Problem is, thereís a lot of time between 2007 and 2015 Ė eight years to be exact and in that time a lot of people are going feel the squeeze at the pump.

Oil companies should have to increase their output to keep up with consumption. This nonsense that they cannot do so currently is a bunch of fertilizer. No one in America believes for one minute that there is a shortage of gasoline. Everyone believes there is major price gouging going on. Some even contend that oil companies are getting kickbacks from the government for keeping the price so high. It all has to do with how motor fuel taxes are collected.

But is anyone surprised that the oil industry isnít going to open their checkbooks and pay for refinery upgrades to increase production when in a mere eight years, the gravy train will go away? The best part of this whole scheme (tongue now firmly planted in cheek) is that in reality, the alternative fuels arenít going to materialize and American consumers will be stuck staring at $5.00/gallon gasoline by 2012 (tongue removed from cheek).

The American consumer isnít as stupid as the oil industry or politicians would like to believe. The average American knows what is going on, even if the fools in Washington, Houston, Bartlesville and elsewhere think otherwise. America is still waiting for the next Thomas Edison to come along and invent a car that will run on water Ė salt or fresh and have the kind of horsepower Americans knew and loved with the muscle cars of the 1960ís. If necessity is the mother of invention, then itís time to induce labor here because Americaís need for an alternative to gasoline is past due.

:clap: :clap: :clap:
Besides, ethanol will now cost more than gasoline to produce, once again, because Corn is no longer 2 dollars a bushel, but between 6 and 7 dollars a freaking bushel.

PhillyChiefFan
04-15-2008, 07:12 PM
There really isn't any benefit to Ethanol, I have heard. It's more expensive to produce and infuse than straight gasoline, basically its diluting gas. But its a face saver for anyone trying to show that they run a product that is created from a renewable resource I suppose.

cdcox
04-15-2008, 08:16 PM
Current ethanol is produced from corn and is non-sustainable. I don't think the government subsidies for its production are a good idea.

In the future, virtually all ethanol will be produced from non-food crops. Cellulosic ethanol could easisly be a viable alternate and renewable fuel.

You really need to make a distinction between the two.

PhillyChiefFan
04-16-2008, 06:00 AM
i agree but price is overly inflated for current *known* supply.

besides i DONT want people thinking theres lots of oil. i want them to KNOW its a finite resource and we need to work on alternatives NOW... not in 10 years... not in 20, not next year....not next week... :cuss:ing now

I can't believe that we have depleted the earth of its fossil fuels in less than 200 years, and most in just the past century. The problem is, as I see it, now developed countries may recognize that we need alternative fuels, but for developing countries it is still cheaper to use petroleum and they will continue burning it at an increasing rate, while developed countries decline their use. So if an alternative fuel/method is feasible, it will have to be a worldwide effort. The US still burns the most, right? But China and India aren't far behind and they are increasing useage.

PhillyChiefFan
04-16-2008, 06:02 AM
Current ethanol is produced from corn and is non-sustainable. I don't think the government subsidies for its production are a good idea.

In the future, virtually all ethanol will be produced from non-food crops. Cellulosic ethanol could easisly be a viable alternate and renewable fuel.

You really need to make a distinction between the two.

Is that where they can use the ENTIRE plant vs. just the corn?

patteeu
04-16-2008, 07:11 AM
In all honesty, because I have NO idea, but how long does it take to build a few refineries?? I realize Katrina took out some, but if those were the achillies heal to our dependency on oil, why was that fact overlooked, and is the govn't trying to build more refineries to replace those lost??

I'm all for alternative energy but for the time being, my car still runs on 3.25/gal gasoline.

The government shouldn't be in the business of building refineries. Unfortunately, they have a pretty substantial regulatory roll in the process which may account for some of the decisions that are made though.

oldandslow
04-16-2008, 07:24 AM
Then ther is the theory, that oil is not organic in nature, but inorganic. As such, it is being replenished by geological forces beneath the crystaline basin and is oozing up to the crust through geologic formations, fissures, and such.

Shhhhh, wouldn't want the populace to get the idea that oil is plentiful, not running out, and not causing global warming, that would screw profits right into the ground.

We Big Oil execs LOVE environmentalists, we really do.

...and if you believe any of this, I have ocean front property right here in south dakota I would love to sell you.

Good God.

Abiotic theories concerning oil are about as well accepted among geologists as the moon being made out of green cheese.

Radar Chief
04-16-2008, 07:24 AM
Is that where they can use the ENTIRE plant vs. just the corn?

I recently read an article on it and basically any carbon-based material can be used to make cellulose ethanol. Even waste material.
Assuming we’re talking about the same thing, and I believe we are.

Edit: here's the article I was talking about.

http://www.coskata.com/

PhillyChiefFan
04-16-2008, 08:12 AM
I recently read an article on it and basically any carbon-based material can be used to make cellulose ethanol. Even waste material.
Assuming weíre talking about the same thing, and I believe we are.

Edit: here's the article I was talking about.

http://www.coskata.com/

Yes, we are. I saw it on the History Channel's Modern Marvels and they were talking about biofuels and mentioned that even yard clippings and soy plants can be used to withdrawal ethanol.

PhillyChiefFan
04-16-2008, 08:15 AM
now environmentally friendly is ethanol? Is this basically robbing peter to pay paul, or will there be some economic advantage to ethanol over gasoline?

Radar Chief
04-16-2008, 08:29 AM
now environmentally friendly is ethanol? Is this basically robbing peter to pay paul, or will there be some economic advantage to ethanol over gasoline?

Not sure, donít know that there have been any studies published on the topic.
Seeing as how more of it has to be burned per mile traveled than plain ole gas, Iíd assume the emissions are equally bad, possibly even worse.
Also, you canít just go dumping ethanol into an engine, the motor has to be prepared for it. Ethanol is corrosive stuff and will literally tear an engine apart from the inside out unless the engine has the proper equipment.

PhillyChiefFan
04-16-2008, 08:33 AM
People just need to start Flintstoning their way to work

jidar
04-16-2008, 08:56 AM
Not sure, donít know that there have been any studies published on the topic.
Seeing as how more of it has to be burned per mile traveled than plain ole gas, Iíd assume the emissions are equally bad, possibly even worse.
Also, you canít just go dumping ethanol into an engine, the motor has to be prepared for it. Ethanol is corrosive stuff and will literally tear an engine apart from the inside out unless the engine has the proper equipment.

There have been studies, I think the answer is "it depends". I think the general consensus is that a completely ethanol based energy economy is a pipe dream though, it will never meet US demand.

Donger
04-16-2008, 09:11 AM
Eeek:

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Oil prices surged to a record high Wednesday, spiking to near $115 a barrel, after a government report showed an unexpected crude supply drop.

U.S. light crude for May delivery rose 61 cents to $114.40 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange after rising as high as a record$114.95. Oil was trading down 24 cents at $113.55 just prior to the report's release.

In its weekly inventory report, the Energy Information Administration said crude stocks fell by 2.3 million barrels in the week ended April 11.

Analysts had been expecting an increase of 1.7 million barrels after last week's unexpected drop, according to a Dow Jones poll.

The EIA said gasoline supplies fell by 5.5 million barrels. Analysts had only expected a drop of 1.7 million barrels.

Distillates, used to make heating oil and diesel fuel, rose by 100,000 barrels, having been expected to decline 1.5 million barrels.

The supply report comes as average gasoline prices hit a new record high of $3.399 at the pump, according to AAA. Prices were up 18.6% from what they were a year ago.

Demand for gasoline was up 0.8% to about 9.3 million barrels a day from the previous year, according to the report.

Oil's above-$100 run has been attributed by most economists to the decline in value of the dollar, as traders buy commodities such as crude oil and gold to preserve the value of their assets.

patteeu
04-16-2008, 09:15 AM
Not sure, donít know that there have been any studies published on the topic.
Seeing as how more of it has to be burned per mile traveled than plain ole gas, Iíd assume the emissions are equally bad, possibly even worse.
Also, you canít just go dumping ethanol into an engine, the motor has to be prepared for it. Ethanol is corrosive stuff and will literally tear an engine apart from the inside out unless the engine has the proper equipment.

One potential emissions benefit for ethanol over fossil fuels is that in the case of ethanol, you're constantly cycling the CO2 back out of the atmosphere by growing the crops from which the ethanol is distilled. In the case of fossil fuels, you're basically generating CO2 from a hole in the ground without a new crop cycle to suck it back up again.

cdcox
04-16-2008, 11:04 AM
Yes, cellulosic ethanol can theoretically come from any form of biomass. That would include corn stover (every thing other than the grain), lawn clippings, wood chips, etc. The plan though is to develop energy crops that can grow on marginally productive land (i.e., not midwestern farm land). Two such crops recieving attention are switchgrass and poplar trees.

A reasonable goal is to have 30% of US transportation fuel supplied by cellulosic ethanol within 30 years. Electric or hydrogen fueled vehicles could also supply some additional fraction of the total transportation energy needs, with gasoline supplying an increasingly smaller percentage of the total as time moves forward.

Your off-the-shelf car can only handle about 10% ethanol in the fuel, due to corrosion. There are relatively modest mods you can do to up that to 85% ethanol (E85).

Due to the corrosiveness of ethanol, it is not an ideal fuel. Butanol, (a four carbon alcohol) is a much better long-term biofuel. The biggest road block to large scale bio-fuel production is the conversion of cellulosic biomass into fermentable sugars. If that can be sovled, it wouldn't take too much more progresss to switch the end product of fermentation from ethanol to butanol.

The motivation for going to bio-fuels is three fold:

1) energy secruity (not having to depend on a foriegn source for abundent energy, which is the driving force of our economy)

2) sustainablility (oil is a finite resource and will run out sooner or later. Eventually sustainability becomes economics).

3) environment (as patteau pointed out, bio-fuels do not cause a net increase of CO2 emissions to the atmosphere because the carbon in the plant came from the atmosphere to begin with. In contrast the carbon from fossil fuels has been isolated from the atmosphere for a looooong time. Burning it causes a net gain of CO2 in the atmosphere.)

Sure-Oz
04-16-2008, 11:31 AM
No way gas ever goes down significantly