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BigRedChief
04-18-2008, 12:43 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/v-print/story/581131.html

Viking and Bucs talk about a trade for Chiefs Jared Allen


By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star

<TABLE><TBODY></TBODY></TABLE>In one sense, the possible departure of Pro Bowl defensive end Jared Allen would be nothing new for the Chiefs.

They’ve lost premier defensive players before. Just in the last several years, the Chiefs had to replace cornerstones such as Derrick Thomas, Neil Smith, Albert Lewis and James Hasty.

The difference is those players were at or near the end of their careers. The 26-year-old Allen, suddenly the subject of heated-up trade talks, is in his prime — and that may make him the most difficult to replace, if it came to that.

The Chiefs have talked with the Minnesota Vikings and Tampa Bay Buccaneers about a trade involving Allen, who led the NFL in sacks last season. Allen is in Minnesota meeting with the Vikings today, and a visit to Tampa could follow soon.

“He was the most disruptive player on that defense, that’s for sure,” said former Chiefs quarterback Rich Gannon, now a game analyst for CBS. “The thing I really like about him is that he plays with a lot of energy and effort. He doesn’t take plays off. He shows up in the running game. Those are things you like at that position. As a pure pass rusher, he runs the edge so well. It’s hard to find guys who can do that.

“When you lose a player like that, you don’t just find a replacement easily.”

Allen, the Chiefs’ franchise player, has wanted out of Kansas City since negotiations for a long-term contract broke down last year. He has indicated he will not sign a long-term contract with the Chiefs if the sides don’t agree on a deal by July.

Allen had yet to discuss the particulars of a long-term contract with either the Vikings or Buccaneers. But a bigger obstacle could be an agreement between either team and the Chiefs on draft-choice compensation.
As the Chiefs’ franchise player, Allen is free to sign a contract offer sheet with any other team.

If he does, the Chiefs have the right to match the offer and retain Allen.
If they declined to match the offer, the Chiefs would receive two first-round draft picks in exchange.

It’s unlikely that either the Vikings or Bucs would be willing to part with two first-round picks as well as satisfy Allen’s financial demands with a long-term deal. But one team or both may be willing to part with a first-round and lower-round choice.

The NFL draft is April 26 and 27. The Vikings have the 17th pick in the first round, and the Bucs have the 20th pick. Minnesota has two third-round choices, including one obtained in an earlier trade with Denver.
If the Chiefs sent Allen to the Vikings for Minnesota’s first- and initial third-round selections, that would give Kansas City two of the draft’s top 17 picks and five of the first 73.

By merely engaging in talks with the Vikings and Bucs, the Chiefs have in effect indicated they would accept less than two first-round picks for Allen. It was unclear what changed the Chiefs’ thinking in this regard, though they appear to have made little or no progress in negotiating a long-term contract with Allen.

The Chiefs were cautious about giving Allen a long-term deal last year at least in part because of his two DUI arrests in Johnson County. He served a two-game NFL suspension at the beginning of last season for violation of the league’s substance-abuse policy and by all accounts appears to have changed his behavior in that regard.

In a statement released by the Chiefs, president/general manager Carl Peterson acknowledged discussions regarding a trade of Allen with teams he did not identify. A source indicated they were Minnesota, Tampa Bay and Jacksonville, though the Jaguars later backed out of the discussions.
“At this point,” Peterson said, “all of these discussions are preliminary.”
So depending on the developments of the next week, with the draft coming up, the Chiefs may be planning to select Allen’s replacement. One of the draft’s premier pass rushers, Ohio State’s Vernon Gholston, was invited Thursday to Arrowhead Stadium to meet with the Chiefs.

The Chiefs could obtain a replacement pass rusher by drafting Gholston or another top defensive end, Virginia’s Chris Long, with their first pick, which is fifth overall. They then could use the first-round pick obtained from Minnesota or Tampa Bay to draft an offensive lineman, another position of great need.

Although the unsigned Allen is a franchise player and technically available to the 31 other teams, the idea of him playing for any team other than the Chiefs next season had seemed farfetched. Few teams appeared willing to give the Chiefs two No. 1 draft picks, and the Chiefs had given no indication they would accept less.

So in that regard, Thursday’s news was stunning. One Chiefs defensive player who did not wish to be identified was angry that the Chiefs would even entertain thoughts of trading their best defensive player and one who at 26 fits in nicely with their youth movement.

It’s not often that a pass rusher in his prime moves from one team to another. In a sense, the Chiefs losing Allen would be like the Colts losing Dwight Freeney or the Dolphins losing Jason Taylor.

“Those guys have a little bit of a longer resume,” Gannon said. “But you’re on the right track. Jared Allen is still a dominant player at his position.”
Losing Allen wouldn’t necessarily gut the Chiefs’ defense. But the cover 2 system favored by coach Herm Edwards is based on the ability to get pressure on the quarterback without having to blitz.

Achieving that goal wouldn’t get any easier without Allen.
“He did everything for us,” said former Chiefs defensive lineman Jimmy Wilkerson, who signed as a free agent last month with Tampa Bay.
“Look at the numbers he put up in sacks, forced fumbles, tackles, percentage of playing time. All of that makes him a key player to that defense. Jared was the energy on the defensive line. He brought so much energy to the game that it motivated everybody else. If you lose him, that energy level isn’t the same.

“It will take a while for them to get somebody through the draft or through free-agency who can do the things for them that he can do. I guess they have a plan. Every team we played against was worried about Jared Allen. They knew what he could do.”
Unless the Chiefs hit it big in the draft, nobody on their defense will cause that kind of worry for opponents.

“It sets them back a few squares,” Gannon said. “He’s a cornerstone.”
“Having said that, I kind of like the move. When you look at that team and where they’re going, if they can get something for him, it’s a great way to build for the future. I don’t anticipate them going to the playoffs next year, with or without Jared Allen.

“There are a lot of other things that can go into it. They can look at his impact in the locker room, the practice field, the meeting rooms, the little run-ins he’s had. You have to take all of that into consideration and ask, ‘Is this a guy who’s going to continue to dominate for another five years, or has he kind of reached his peak?’ I’m sure the Chiefs anticipate he’ll be a great player next season, but what about the year after that?

“Maybe their answer is they’re not sure and they should get something for him while he’s hot. If that’s the case, then you move him.”

Fruit Ninja
04-18-2008, 12:53 AM
3-13 here we come. We will now be chillen with the Arizona Cardinals and Detroit Lions. Where's my paper bag.

Rausch
04-18-2008, 01:03 AM
The hacks are already preparing spin.

Yeah, this'n makes me think the GOATSE might have a point...

Baconeater
04-18-2008, 01:05 AM
3-13 here we come. We will now be chillen with the Arizona Cardinals and Detroit Lions. Where's my paper bag.
Cardinals? You'll wish we were as good as them, they will win at least twice as many games as us if not more.

BIG K
04-18-2008, 01:05 AM
3-13 here we come. We will now be chillen with the Arizona Cardinals and Detroit Lions. Where's my paper bag.

3-13 or 6-10? His presence will not make a difference this year.

blueballs
04-18-2008, 01:55 AM
Perhaps Jared is asking for too much
so they are letting him see just how much his contract is really worth on the open market
let the Vikes and Bucs show him he has issues to take into consideration in any contract

Easy 6
04-18-2008, 01:57 AM
I'm so disgusted & torn, i dont know which side to fall on.

On one hand, Jared has earned...by 07 stats alone, a Top Shelf contract...yet he has been a completely arrogant, no tact player when it comes to copping to his mistakes & making strides that show he's on his way to maturity...he started in with the heavyhanded "i'll stay or go...could care less either way" type talk months ago, no classy, behind the scene deals that show respect for those who brought him to this point...instead, dumb PR moves, followed up by our favorite white boy alchoholic opening a, BAR!!! , fer cripe pete...with a straight No Account name like "Wine'em Dine'em 69'em"...is that REALLY a name befitting an NFL star???...sounds VERY low rent to me.

On the other, Carl has once again allowed his balls to override his brain...does he have a RIGHT to demand better behavior from JA for the big $$$, you bet your ass...yet all of the minor press releases this offseason from 1 Arrowhead regarding the subject, took on a similar to JA attitude of "hey, whatever"...where is the determination to keep the Creme de la Corp???...there IS plenty of jack to get something done, be Pro-Active...dont let this fester...but now it seems to be too late...Carls ego has painted him into a corner...if he was HALF the negotiator he thinks he is, he would have found a way out of this mess.

Welcome to Dysfunction Junction.

Rausch
04-18-2008, 02:00 AM
They’ve lost premier defensive players before. Just in the last several years, the Chiefs had to replace cornerstones such as Derrick Thomas, Neil Smith, Albert Lewis and James Hasty.

Lost? We haven't even had a player worth comparing to them in 10 years. Not an opinon, as hard as it is to believe, that's a ****ing fact...

Guru
04-18-2008, 02:20 AM
I'm so disgusted & torn, i dont know which side to fall on.

On one hand, Jared has earned...by 07 stats alone, a Top Shelf contract...yet he has been a completely arrogant, no tact player when it comes to copping to his mistakes & making strides that show he's on his way to maturity...he started in with the heavyhanded "i'll stay or go...could care less either way" type talk months ago, no classy, behind the scene deals that show respect for those who brought him to this point...instead, dumb PR moves, followed up by our favorite white boy alchoholic opening a, BAR!!! , fer cripe pete...with a straight No Account name like "Wine'em Dine'em 69'em"...is that REALLY a name befitting an NFL star???...sounds VERY low rent to me.

On the other, Carl has once again allowed his balls to override his brain...does he have a RIGHT to demand better behavior from JA for the big $$$, you bet your ass...yet all of the minor press releases this offseason from 1 Arrowhead regarding the subject, took on a similar to JA attitude of "hey, whatever"...where is the determination to keep the Creme de la Corp???...there IS plenty of jack to get something done, be Pro-Active...dont let this fester...but now it seems to be too late...Carls ego has painted him into a corner...if he was HALF the negotiator he thinks he is, he would have found a way out of this mess.

Welcome to Dysfunction Junction.
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Easy 6
04-18-2008, 02:38 AM
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Its interesting to note, that Carl did the layouts & Herm colored in the toons here...its the new 'Welcome to the Chiefs" video that they show all of the rooks.

Fruit Ninja
04-18-2008, 03:04 AM
3-13 or 6-10? His presence will not make a difference this year.
I want to at least show that we can be better then last year and that the team is headed in the right direction. I dont want to get worse. Soon we may fall so far back that we may just get stuck there.

Der Flöprer
04-18-2008, 03:06 AM
This is perhaps as gross as I've ever felt being a Chief fan.

Der Flöprer
04-18-2008, 03:34 AM
Actually, nothing will feel as gross as it did the day I learned Derrick had died. I took that harder than most deaths I've experienced in life.

Saggysack
04-18-2008, 03:41 AM
Actually, nothing will feel as gross as it did the day I learned Derrick had died. I took that harder than most deaths I've experienced in life.

I hope you are kidding.

philfree
04-18-2008, 04:44 AM
His play was great this past year but he's a jackass. Give me a 1st rounder this year and a 1st rounder next year and I'm good with it. Besides that he can go enjoy sex with Chad Johnson......Maybe they can start their own expansion team. The HOMO BOYS EXTENDS.............Shit liKe this really pissses me off.....

PhilFree:arrow:

PhillyChiefFan
04-18-2008, 06:49 AM
From Yahoo Sports Column: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/For-some-reason-Chiefs-to-trade-Jared-Allen;_ylt=ApquQufuslnw_ILNRNhpPuNDubYF?urn=nfl,77367

"I've contacted the Broncos, Raiders, and Chargers for comment, and they all said, 'Really? Well, tell the Chiefs we said 'thanks'.'"

We are the laughing stock of the NFL if this trade goes through. Is there ANY chance that this is more smoke and mirrors??!?! Please someone say it won't happen.

When all three teams from your Division say tell the Chiefs we said Thanks...what a slap in the face.

the Talking Can
04-18-2008, 06:51 AM
we're the Memphis Grizzlies of the NFL

PhillyChiefFan
04-18-2008, 06:52 AM
Heads will roll

PhillyChiefFan
04-18-2008, 06:54 AM
And I pray it is Carl's. I can't believe this, I have thought all along that they would use the franchise tag, and then pay the man the money that the NFL sack leader should get.

Now, we get a the Vikings first...ok so one of our picks in the first will be needed for a DE...soooo basically we get a 3rd round pick. Awesome.

the Talking Can
04-18-2008, 06:54 AM
Heads will roll

no, not really

PhillyChiefFan
04-18-2008, 07:01 AM
no, not really

True, I really don't know why I would think that, didn't Carl sign a lifetime contract?? He's the Chiefs Supreme Court Justice.

Delano
04-18-2008, 07:34 AM
The only way I can see this from the Chiefs side is by thinking that Jared told them in his matter of fact way, "There is no chance I play for the Chiefs again. It doesn't matter if there is a contract offer, or I'm blocked from a trade. I'll sit out."

And then of course the course changes from getting the guy locked up long term, to getting some value out of him, because you'll lose him either way.

If it's anything other than that situation, **** this front office!

TEX
04-18-2008, 07:58 AM
Actually, nothing will feel as gross as it did the day I learned Derrick had died. I took that harder than most deaths I've experienced in life.


Yep. Nothing was worse than that. That was my worst Chief moment. Here are my worst 5 in the CP Era.

1. Death of DT
2. Watching the kicker who shall remain nameless miss 3 kicks in the playoffs
3. The day Herm Edwards was named Head Coach
4. Losing to the Cheating Donx at home in the Playoffs
5. Lamar Hunt's death

Anyway, trading JA is stupid. The guy is just 26 & is a sure thing. He is a legitimate building block of a young team. To trade him represents failure at so many levels.

Count Alex's Losses
04-18-2008, 08:04 AM
So in that regard, Thursday’s news was stunning.

Or shocking, some might say.

EyePod
04-18-2008, 08:16 AM
Cardinals? You'll wish we were as good as them, they will win at least twice as many games as us if not more.


I've never actually said this before (unlike everyone else it seems) but I really believe the Cards are gonna be RIDICULOUS this season. If they get Jonathon Stewart... watch out. Edge is on his way out, but he's still got something left. Their team was DECIMATED by injuries. Adrian Wilson, Anquan Boldin, and Leinart... Plus a few lineman, corners and LB's were all injured throught the season... If they stay RELATIVELY healthy, they will make the playoffs for the first time in a while.

Boris The Great
04-18-2008, 08:19 AM
Or shocking, some might say.

Oh, so the big shocking news was that the Chiefs were going to answer the ringing phone when teams called to inquire about trading for Allen? What a scoop, Nick sure was on the ball with that one.

Incidentally, good job trying to spin this as some victory for Nicky boy a week after he went on NFL Network and said he thought a long term contract with Allen would get done. Where do I sign up?

EyePod
04-18-2008, 08:20 AM
Yep. Nothing was worse than that. That was my worst Chief moment. Here are my worst 5 in the CP Era.

1. Death of DT
2. Watching the kicker who shall remain nameless miss 3 kicks in the playoffs
3. The day Herm Edwards was named Head Coach
4. Losing to the Cheating Donx at home in the Playoffs
5. Lamar Hunt's death

Anyway, trading JA is stupid. The guy is just 26 & is a sure thing. He is a legitimate building block of a young team. To trade him represents failure at so many levels.

It is not a stupid thing. If he really won't budge on his deal, (he's gonna want somewhere around DeAngelo Hall's deal, 67 mil), and the Chiefs don't have the money for it, especially while paying the 5th Draft Pick, then why is it stupid to get something for him, ESPECIALLY because we won't be competive this season (I'm hoping for 6 wins, and that's if the draft goes well). I think that trading him is the best choice for us, and get him into the NFC and keep him out of our way.

HonestChieffan
04-18-2008, 08:30 AM
If they can get a couple good picks this yaear and another for next....I say goodbye Jared. Rebuilding sometimes makes people do bold things.

StcChief
04-18-2008, 08:54 AM
Perhaps Jared is asking for too much
so they are letting him see just how much his contract is really worth on the open market
let the Vikes and Bucs show him he has issues to take into consideration in any contract2nd contract money? this might be a reality check, he thinks Freeney money but... maybe others don't.

BigRedChief
04-18-2008, 10:48 AM
2nd contract money? this might be a reality check, he thinks Freeney money but... maybe others don't.
This is what I don't get. Herm has said that he wants young players entering into their 2nd contracts. So the only explanation is that JA and King Carl's relationship has made it impossible for him to stay.

BigChiefFan
04-18-2008, 11:48 AM
The only way I can see this from the Chiefs side is by thinking that Jared told them in his matter of fact way, "There is no chance I play for the Chiefs again. It doesn't matter if there is a contract offer, or I'm blocked from a trade. I'll sit out."

And then of course the course changes from getting the guy locked up long term, to getting some value out of him, because you'll lose him either way.

If it's anything other than that situation, **** this front office!
But he DIDN'T say that-he said he would play for the Chiefs and wants to be here, he just wants a long-term deal-who can blame him-he's earned it.

Brock
04-18-2008, 12:03 PM
But he DIDN'T say that-he said he would play for the Chiefs and wants to be here, he just wants a long-term deal-who can blame him-he's earned it.

He also said "I'm cured, get over it", like a lot of drunks do.

blueballs
04-18-2008, 12:09 PM
This is what I don't get. Herm has said that he wants young players entering into their 2nd contracts. So the only explanation is that JA and King Carl's relationship has made it impossible for him to stay.


Allen may not be willing to sign a contract with a stipulation
related to his DUIs -I think he has said as such
let him see if Min or Tampa would sign him to such a deal

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 04:42 PM
Actually, nothing will feel as gross as it did the day I learned Derrick had died. I took that harder than most deaths I've experienced in life.

I agree-I knew DT-not like best friends-but I had friends that were close to him. Classy guy, I miss him still. :(

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 04:43 PM
I love how JA is now called a Drunk-but we signed LJ even with his shady past??

I guess pistol whipping ho's is no big deal.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 04:44 PM
I love how JA is now called a Drunk-but we signed LJ even with his shady past??

I guess pistol whipping ho's is no big deal.

Which one is 1 screw up from a year suspension and which one is not.......that's all you need to know Allen is worse as far as league standing.

Brock
04-18-2008, 04:44 PM
I love how JA is now called a Drunk-but we signed LJ even with his shady past??

I guess pistol whipping ho's is no big deal.

He shouldn't have been signed either.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:02 PM
Which one is 1 screw up from a year suspension and which one is not.......that's all you need to know Allen is worse as far as league standing.

JA paid for his mistakes-and the NFl reconized that and dropped 2 days. "JA at risk" is just a big propeganda shit sandwhich King Carl thought up to conceal the fact-JA could not be pushed around by the man in leather.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:04 PM
JA paid for his mistakes-and the NFl reconized that and dropped 2 days. "JA at risk" is just a big propeganda shit sandwhich King Carl thought up to conceal the fact-JA could not be pushed around by the man in leather.

1 screwup and a year suspension is not any sort of made up shit it's the truth....and it will happen.

Brock
04-18-2008, 05:06 PM
Jared's an alcoholic. Face facts.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:07 PM
Jared's an alcoholic. Face facts.

Here comes the "he likes to party, but he's not an alcoholic" bus, and there's not a seat to spare.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:09 PM
Here comes the "he likes to party, but he's not an alcoholic" bus, and there's not a seat to spare.

I'm telling you I've never seen a player **** up this much have an entire train of people back him and support him like it's nothing and just want to back the brinks truck up and give him the biggest defensive contract in league history..

I've yet to figure out why this man has earned so much slack...

Bowser
04-18-2008, 05:11 PM
Jared is the one guy on this shit ass defense that has performed. That's why he gets so much slack.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:12 PM
Jared is the one guy on this shit ass defense that has performed. That's why he gets so much slack.

And he's a white player that many of this teams fans relate with.....don't take that wrong I'm not saying it's "racism" but I think he is getting more slack because fans somehow relate to him and being white with a highly white fan base doesn't hurt.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:12 PM
Jared's an alcoholic. Face facts.

based on what??

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:13 PM
I'm telling you I've never seen a player **** up this much have an entire train of people back him and support him like it's nothing and just want to back the brinks truck up and give him the biggest defensive contract in league history..

I've yet to figure out why this man has earned so much slack...

I guess the dividing line is whether you kill someone when you drive drunk.

People on this board absolutely crucified Leonard Little when he got his 2nd DWI a few years back.

It shows how accepting people are of others driving drunk. It's OK as long as you're "one of us" and don't kill anyone.

Direckshun
04-18-2008, 05:13 PM
And he's a white player that many of this teams fans relate with.....don't take that wrong I'm not saying it's "racism" but I think he is getting more slack because fans somehow relate to him and being white with a highly white fan base doesn't hurt.
And the crazy train has arrived.

It had a perfectly reasonable engine but the caboose got all screwy.

Brock
04-18-2008, 05:14 PM
based on what??

Based on the textbook definition of an alcoholic.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:14 PM
I'm telling you I've never seen a player **** up this much have an entire train of people back him and support him like it's nothing and just want to back the brinks truck up and give him the biggest defensive contract in league history..

I've yet to figure out why this man has earned so much slack...

Because he leaves his heart on the field. He did Tons of community service, classes, ect, ect. Plus led the NFL in sacks in 14 games with Zero help up the middle.

Wow, you are right he sucks.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:15 PM
:hmmm: Based on the textbook definition of an alcoholic.

wow nice comeback

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:15 PM
And the crazy train has arrived.

It had a perfectly reasonable engine but the caboose got all screwy.

If you don't think it matters.......people think Owens is a total douche that they wouldn't want yet what Allen has done is worse because Owens doesn't put himself in position to get suspended...

It's me simply saying Allen is related to by alot of fans so they "overlook" his screwups.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:16 PM
Because he leaves his heart on the field. He did Tons of community service, classes, ect, ect. Plus led the NFL in sacks in 14 games with Zero help up the middle.

Wow, you are right he sucks.

Again, his talent on the field isn't in question.

The fact that it took a SECOND DWI to get him to "straighten up" is.

He did this to himself. Period.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:16 PM
Because he leaves his heart on the field. He did Tons of community service, classes, ect, ect. Plus led the NFL in sacks in 14 games with Zero help up the middle.

Wow, you are right he sucks.

He sucks off the field.....when you pay a player that much money there's alot more that goes into it than how he plays. He becomes the face of your franchise and a hell of alot more than just a player...

This man doesn't carry himself like Peyton Manning, he carries himself like a high school student.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:17 PM
I guess the dividing line is whether you kill someone when you drive drunk.

People on this board absolutely crucified Leonard Little when he got his 2nd DWI a few years back.

It shows how accepting people are of others driving drunk. It's OK as long as you're "one of us" and don't kill anyone.

wasnt Little driving like 125 in a construction zone, was high on weed, had a loaded handgun under the seat and twice the limit?

chubychecker
04-18-2008, 05:17 PM
Jared is the one guy on this shit ass defense that has performed. That's why he gets so much slack.

LJ was the only player on our offense from two years ago; thus we signed him to a silly contract. Maybe our front office is finally learning from their mistakes.

We have no business signing JA to the type of contract he wants. If you notice the teams being mentioned for a possible trade our teams that maybe a player or two away from contention. We need far more than that.

Brock
04-18-2008, 05:18 PM
Again, his talent on the field isn't in question.

The fact that it took a SECOND DWI to get him to "straighten up" is.

He did this to himself. Period.

Actually 3 duis. 1 was in college.

Brock
04-18-2008, 05:18 PM
:hmmm:

wow nice comeback

It's not a comeback. You can look it up if you care to.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:19 PM
He straightened up for a year and people think that he is perfectly fine, I think for the kind of money he wants anyone could straighten up for a year, what's he gonna do when he gets his money?

You really think he won't go back to being what he was before, you learn from history...what's his history...

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:20 PM
He sucks off the field.....when you pay a player that much money there's alot more that goes into it than how he plays. He becomes the face of your franchise and a hell of alot more than just a player...

This man doesn't carry himself like Peyton Manning, he carries himself like a high school student.

ROFL oh my- "Mr. Chacter does not matter" is now on the other side of the fence. You flipflop more than anyone on this board.

So LJ is face of the team huh?? I guess I will go to NY so I can get a pic of him for the team yearbook.

Direckshun
04-18-2008, 05:20 PM
If you don't think it matters.......people think Owens is a total douche that they wouldn't want yet what Allen has done is worse because Owens doesn't put himself in position to get suspended...

It's me simply saying Allen is related to by alot of fans so they "overlook" his screwups.
choo choo

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:21 PM
He straightened up for a year and people think that he is perfectly fine, I think for the kind of money he wants anyone could straighten up for a year, what's he gonna do when he gets his money?

You really think he won't go back to being what he was before, you learn from history...what's his history...

His history is being a total badass on the football field.

Bowser
04-18-2008, 05:22 PM
He straightened up for a year and people think that he is perfectly fine, I think for the kind of money he wants anyone could straighten up for a year, what's he gonna do when he gets his money?

You really think he won't go back to being what he was before, you learn from history...what's his history...

I think the quote is "You're doomed to repeat history if you don't learn from it", or somesuch.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:23 PM
ROFL oh my- "Mr. Chacter does not matter" is now on the other side of the fence. You flipflop more than anyone on this board.

So LJ is face of the team huh?? I guess I will go to NY so I can get a pic of him for the team yearbook.

Character doesn't matter when they don't get suspended, that's why guys like Owens don't bother me.

Allen has put himself in a spot to get suspended that bothers me...he also wants one of the biggest D contracts ever, that bothers me.

To me there is a huge difference in a guy who runs his mouth that people don't really like and a guy that hurts his team because he can't stay on the field.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:24 PM
He straightened up for a year and people think that he is perfectly fine, I think for the kind of money he wants anyone could straighten up for a year, what's he gonna do when he gets his money?

You really think he won't go back to being what he was before, you learn from history...what's his history...

LED THE NFL IN SACKS IN 14 GAMES!!!!!

yep lets trade him

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:24 PM
His history is being a total badass on the football field.

His history is 3 DWI's and having an alcohol problem.....

I bet if any of you knew someone that had been killed by a drunk driver you wouldn't have near this much slack for this man.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:24 PM
wasnt Little driving like 125 in a construction zone, was high on weed, had a loaded handgun under the seat and twice the limit?

You couldnt have missed by more if you tried.

78 MPH in a 55 zone. And as a local, I'll tell you that he was driving slower on that stretch of 64/40 than the sober people do during the day.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/rams/2004-04-26-little-charged_x.htm

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:25 PM
LED THE NFL IN SACKS IN 14 GAMES!!!!!

yep lets trade him

This is not about on the field fool, how many times do I have to make that clear?

Open your god damn eyes and read what is being said, it doesn't matter how good of a player he is when he gets suspended for a year.

His off the field actions is what is spurring this if he was a model guy like a Manning this wouldn't even be an issue.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:25 PM
He straightened up for a year and people think that he is perfectly fine, I think for the kind of money he wants anyone could straighten up for a year, what's he gonna do when he gets his money?

You really think he won't go back to being what he was before, you learn from history...what's his history...

Again, let's ask Leonard Little.

He cleaned up for FIVE years before getting his 2nd DWI.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:26 PM
Character doesn't matter when they don't get suspended, that's why guys like Owens don't bother me.

Allen has put himself in a spot to get suspended that bothers me...he also wants one of the biggest D contracts ever, that bothers me.

To me there is a huge difference in a guy who runs his mouth that people don't really like and a guy that hurts his team because he can't stay on the field.

so it is JA's fault that the Cheaps did not sign him YEARS ago?? If you think Owens has not hurt the teams he has been on-you are dellusional.

How has JA hurt this team?

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:26 PM
Actually 3 duis. 1 was in college.

I stand corrected. I had completely forgotten.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:28 PM
His history is 3 DWI's and having an alcohol problem.....

I bet if any of you knew someone that had been killed by a drunk driver you wouldn't have near this much slack for this man.

so lets just cut him then

I have no sympathy for chronic drunk drivers-but to say JA is not worth the money after playing for peanuts his whole career is just silly.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:30 PM
so it is JA's fault that the Cheaps did not sign him YEARS ago?? If you think Owens has not hurt the teams he has been on-you are dellusional.

How has JA hurt this team?

It's his fault he went drunk driving 3 times...

BigChiefFan
04-18-2008, 05:30 PM
He's one of the best DEs in the game, who's had some screw-ups, that's never stopped the Chiefs before, Bam Morris ring any bells? I've said it before and I'll say it again, Carl is pulling the 'ol leverage stunt. The player deserves to be paid, EVIDENCED by OTHER teams WILLING TO PONY UP and pay draft picks for his services and rather than being professional, Carl let's the situation get out of hand, as usual-
Some of you are living in denial, if don't think Carl is part of the problem-it has a great deal to do with the so-called claim of JA being disgruntled. When you low-ball those that excel at their job, it causes stife and resentment.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:31 PM
so it is JA's fault that the Cheaps did not sign him YEARS ago?? If you think Owens has not hurt the teams he has been on-you are dellusional.

How has JA hurt this team?

Years ago?

How many, Christ, the guy has only been in the league 4 years.

Should we have signed him to a Dwight Freeney-like contract after the 2006 season and those whopping 7.5 sacks?

By that rationale, we should be signing Tamba Hali to a HUGE extension any day now, seeing as he outperformed Allen in 2006.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:32 PM
He's one of the best DEs in the game, who's had some screw-ups, that's never stopped the Chiefs before, Bam Morris ring any bells? I've said it before and I'll say it again, Carl is pulling the 'ol leverage stunt. The player deserves to be paid, EVIDENCED by OTHER teams WILLING TO PONY UP and pay draft picks for his services and rather than being professional, Carl let's the situation get out of hand, as usual-
Some of you are living in denial, if don't think Carl is part of the problem-it has a great deal to do with the so-called claim of JA being disgruntled. When you low-ball those that excel at their job, it causes stife and resentment.

:clap: excellent post

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:33 PM
He's one of the best DEs in the game, who's had some screw-ups, that's never stopped the Chiefs before, Bam Morris ring any bells? I've said it before and I'll say it again, Carl is pulling the 'ol leverage stunt. The player deserves to be paid, EVIDENCED by OTHER teams WILLING TO PONY UP and pay draft picks for his services and rather than being professional, Carl let's the situation get out of hand, as usual-
Some of you are living in denial, if don't think Carl is part of the problem-it has a great deal to do with the so-called claim of JA being disgruntled. When you low-ball those that excel at their job, it causes stife and resentment.

Bam Morris didn't want one of the biggest contracts in league history, he screws up it doesn't really hurt you that much, Allen does it's a huge deal.

Your highest paid, franchise player, face of your team is now suspended for a year for being an alcoholic...

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:33 PM
It's his fault he went drunk driving 3 times...

I would like to see a list of those that have not drove over the limit at least 3 times.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:35 PM
He's one of the best DEs in the game, who's had some screw-ups, that's never stopped the Chiefs before, Bam Morris ring any bells? I've said it before and I'll say it again, Carl is pulling the 'ol leverage stunt. The player deserves to be paid, EVIDENCED by OTHER teams WILLING TO PONY UP and pay draft picks for his services and rather than being professional, Carl let's the situation get out of hand, as usual-
Some of you are living in denial, if don't think Carl is part of the problem-it has a great deal to do with the so-called claim of JA being disgruntled. When you low-ball those that excel at their job, it causes stife and resentment.

IF, and I'll repeat - IF he's in fact being lowballed by Carl, let's sit back and ask WHY he's being lowballed.

Could it be because of his DWI HISTORY?

He's disgruntled because he's not getting paid.

He's not getting paid because he was a ****ing moron - not once, not twice but THREE TIMES and now because he's supposedly been clean for a whole year all those things go away?

Never mind the $100M he wants.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:36 PM
I would like to see a list of those that have not drove over the limit at least 3 times.

And on that list, how many are asking Clark Hunt to fork over $100M?

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:36 PM
Years ago?

How many, Christ, the guy has only been in the league 4 years.

Should we have signed him to a Dwight Freeney-like contract after the 2006 season and those whopping 7.5 sacks?

By that rationale, we should be signing Tamba Hali to a HUGE extension any day now, seeing as he outperformed Allen in 2006.

We could have easily extended his contract and it would look like a very savy move for what JA has done. But instead we will get shit. :cuss:

Cheaps are rebuilding by trading a young future Hofer?? Best defensive player in the NFl last year. I call Bullshit-this is another Tait war with Carl.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:37 PM
I would like to see a list of those that have not drove over the limit at least 3 times.

I haven't, I don't drink.....and I have little sympathy for anyone who puts themselves in that spot. He should be grateful he's never killed anyone.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:37 PM
And on that list, how many are asking Clark Hunt to fork over $100M?

LJ parties every night.

Dicky McElephant
04-18-2008, 05:38 PM
I've driven drunk once....got pulled over and got out of the ticket. And I never did it again.

BigChiefFan
04-18-2008, 05:38 PM
IF, and I'll repeat - IF he's in fact being lowballed by Carl, let's sit back and ask WHY he's being lowballed.

Could it be because of his DWI HISTORY?

He's disgruntled because he's not getting paid.

He's not getting paid because he was a ****ing moron - not once, not twice but THREE TIMES and now because he's supposedly been clean for a whole year all those things go away?

Never mind the $100M he wants.Eric Warfield.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:39 PM
Eric Warfield.

So the Chiefs have learned from these stupid mistakes and are letting Allen go?

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:39 PM
LJ parties every night.

How many DWI's does he have?

How many suspensions has he had?

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2008, 05:39 PM
I've driven drunk once....got pulled over and got out of the ticket. And I never did it again.

Ditto. I blowed under the legal limit, I was lucky as hell. It scared the shit out of me and I would never try to do it again.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:40 PM
How many DWI's does he have?

How many suspensions has he had?

I like how LJ is being painted as bad as Allen here when he has no DWI's or suspensions...LJ should have been traded because he's a RB that was overworked...

Allen has ridiculously shitty off the field behavior even though some would like to ignore it.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:40 PM
I haven't, I don't drink.....and I have little sympathy for anyone who puts themselves in that spot. He should be grateful he's never killed anyone.

You do realize you can be over the limit with two beers? JA can probably down a case and still walk the line, suit up and kill the opposing QB.

The entire Cheaps D of the 90's partied their asses off every Sat before games.

JA is getting made out to be a loser-and that is not the case-no matter how many high and mighty post you make.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:41 PM
Eric Warfield.

Of course.

Let's compare the guy who never made more than $5M and was an average player at best, to a guy who's asking for $100M and is supposedly according to some folks here the best DE in the game.

keg in kc
04-18-2008, 05:41 PM
I would like to see a list of those that have not drove over the limit at least 3 times.He didn't drive over the limit three times.

He was arrested for driving over the limit three times.

Just a tiny bit of a difference there.

Who knows how many times he actually did it.

But, yeah, we should have given him an extension while he was suspended by the NFL, when the commissioner was clearly instituting a 'no tolerance' policy. Right. Reward a guy for breaking the law, much less league rules. That certainly sounds like something anybody with an IQ over 2 would do.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:42 PM
Of course.

Let's compare the guy who never made more than $5M and was an average player at best, to a guy who's asking for $100M and is supposedly according to some folks here the best DE in the game.

Don't worry those same people if/when he ****s up again and gets suspended would be going "we shoulda traded him when we had the chance"

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:42 PM
He didn't drive over the limit three times.

He was arrested for driving over the limit three times.

Just a tiny bit of a difference there.

Who knows how many times he actually did it.

But, yeah, we should have given him an extension while he was suspended by the NFL, when the commissioner was clearly instituting a 'no tolerance' policy. Right. Reward a guy for breaking the law, much less league rules. That certainly sounds like something anybody with an IQ over 2 would do.

Excellent post.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:42 PM
I like how LJ is being painted as bad as Allen here when he has no DWI's or suspensions...LJ should have been traded because he's a RB that was overworked...

Allen has ridiculously shitty off the field behavior even though some would like to ignore it.

Hey this is America- last time I checked-it is a free country to do what the fug you want when you want. If it does not effect his Job-then who the fug are you to judge him???

How much community service have you done?? How much work with teens and kids? Okay that is what I thought.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:43 PM
Hey this is America- last time I checked-it is a free country to do what the fug you want when you want. If it does not effect his Job-then who the fug are you to judge him???

How much community service have you done?? How much work with teens and kids? Okay that is what I thought.

Getting suspended affects his job.

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2008, 05:44 PM
Hey this is America- last time I checked-it is a free country to do what the fug you want when you want. If it does not effect his Job-then who the fug are you to judge him???

If he gets pulled over and arrested again it sure as hell effects his job.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 05:44 PM
He didn't drive over the limit three times.

He was arrested for driving over the limit three times.

Just a tiny bit of a difference there.

Who knows how many times he actually did it.

But, yeah, we should have given him an extension while he was suspended by the NFL, when the commissioner was clearly instituting a 'no tolerance' policy. Right. Reward a guy for breaking the law, much less league rules. That certainly sounds like something anybody with an IQ over 2 would do.

and you have NEVER drove drunk????

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 05:45 PM
He didn't drive over the limit three times.

He was arrested for driving over the limit three times.

Just a tiny bit of a difference there.

Who knows how many times he actually did it.

But, yeah, we should have given him an extension while he was suspended by the NFL, when the commissioner was clearly instituting a 'no tolerance' policy. Right. Reward a guy for breaking the law, much less league rules. That certainly sounds like something anybody with an IQ over 2 would do.

That's EXACTLY when you lock the guy in. Buy low, sell high. Carl Peterson chose instead to wait until Allen led the league in sacks and was an MVP candidate. This is why we can never have nice things.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:46 PM
Hey this is America- last time I checked-it is a free country to do what the fug you want when you want. If it does not effect his Job-then who the fug are you to judge him???

How much community service have you done?? How much work with teens and kids? Okay that is what I thought.

Actually, it does affect his job.

He's missed time because of suspensions levied against him for this behavior.

If I was arrested for DWI ONCE, my ass would be fired the next day.

My boss would take this "free country" bullshit and tell me to get bent.

Have people completely lost their minds?

Bowser
04-18-2008, 05:46 PM
That's EXACTLY when you lock the guy in. Buy low, sell high. Carl Peterson chose instead to wait until Allen led the league in sacks and was an MVP candidate. This is why we can never have nice things.

Good point.

keg in kc
04-18-2008, 05:46 PM
and you have NEVER drove drunk????You're really reaching if that's the best you can come up with.

And no, I've never been arrested for DUI. Not once. Not twice. Not three times. And I'm not even a public figure. I don't have anybody but my own conscience to answer to. If I get pulled over, I don't violate NFL policy and risk millions of dollars in future compensation.

Yet, amazingly, I still don't do it.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:46 PM
Actually, it does affect his job.

He's missed time because of suspensions levied against him for this behavior.

If I was arrested for DWI ONCE, my ass would be fired the next day.

My boss would take this "free country" bullshit and tell me to get bent.

Have people completely lost their minds?

Apparently conventional wisdom and general rules do not apply to Jared Allen.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:47 PM
Good point.

Because thumbing your nose at the commissioner in a time of no tolerance is a really good idea..

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2008, 05:48 PM
That's EXACTLY when you lock the guy in. Buy low, sell high. Carl Peterson chose instead to wait until Allen led the league in sacks and was an MVP candidate. This is why we can never have nice things.

Last season Allen had a 4 game suspension to start the year, it did get reduced, but still the same dark cloud was hoovering over JA as it is now. Peterson is a dumbass but he has done the right thing with Allen IMO.

keg in kc
04-18-2008, 05:48 PM
That's EXACTLY when you lock the guy in. Buy low, sell high. Carl Peterson chose instead to wait until Allen led the league in sacks and was an MVP candidate. This is why we can never have nice things.Who says the Chiefs didn't try (and my guess is they probably did, just didn't offer the moon like Allen wanted/wants)...

And whether they did or not, I still think it's a monumentally bad idea. You do not reward a guy for bad behavior.

BigChiefFan
04-18-2008, 05:49 PM
Of course.

Let's compare the guy who never made more than $5M and was an average player at best, to a guy who's asking for $100M and is supposedly according to some folks here the best DE in the game.Besides the money and caliber of player it's the same situation. The Chiefs never had a problem re-signing Larry Johnson, did they? You know, they guy that beats up WOMEN.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 05:50 PM
Because thumbing your nose at the commissioner in a time of no tolerance is a really good idea..

Did I miss the commissioner banning Jared Allen from football? If the commissioner has a problem, he can suspend him, but unless he's banned permanently he can still negotiate contracts.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:50 PM
Who says the Chiefs didn't try (and my guess is they probably did, just didn't offer the moon like Allen wanted/wants)...

And whether they did or not, I still think it's a monumentally bad idea. You do not reward a guy for bad behavior.

That's basically my view, no matter how good a player has been. Allens behavior doesn't warrant what he wants. I think it is a horrible idea to make the face of your franchise a guy with his problems..

He gets caught again the Chiefs become a PSA "The face of this team is an alcoholic" it all ends bad.

Bowser
04-18-2008, 05:50 PM
Because thumbing your nose at the commissioner in a time of no tolerance is a really good idea..

So what exactly are the Vikings doing right now, if all of this turns out to be true?

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:52 PM
So what exactly are the Vikings doing right now, if all of this turns out to be true?

It has been a year, it wouldn't have been wise to do it right after and I still don't think it's wise..

But if the Chiefs had done it when Rain Man is implying that is basically daring the commissioner to make an example of you.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:52 PM
Besides the money and caliber of player it's the same situation. The Chiefs never had a problem re-signing Larry Johnson, did they? You know, they guy that beats up WOMEN.

Yeah, besides the MONEY and the TALENT it's the exact same thing.

That's the whole point. They could afford to take a risk with Warfield. The guy's cap hit was under $5M.

You can't afford to eat a $30-35M signing bonus because your star DE decides one night that "I've been clean a whole year, one beer won't hurt...."

keg in kc
04-18-2008, 05:53 PM
So what exactly are the Vikings doing right now, if all of this turns out to be true?I don't think the conversation is about now, at least not my part of it. The discussion had moved on to why the Chiefs didn't give him extension last year, which is apparently one of the reasons the deal's so difficult now. This all goes back to when Allen was upset because Peterson called him an "at risk player" last year...

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:54 PM
I don't think the conversation is about now, at least not my part of it. The discussion had moved on to why the Chiefs didn't give him extension last year, which is apparently one of the reasons the deal's so difficult now. This all goes back to when Allen was upset because Peterson called him an "at risk player" last year...

Apparently the truth hurts.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 05:55 PM
So what exactly are the Vikings doing right now, if all of this turns out to be true?

Making a mistake, IMHO.

If Jared Allen played for the Seahawks and was in this same situation, would you want the Chiefs to fork over draft picks and $100M to get him?

Me neither.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 05:57 PM
Making a mistake, IMHO.

If Jared Allen played for the Seahawks and was in this same situation, would you want the Chiefs to fork over draft picks and $100M to get him?

Me neither.

We're on the same page on this I'm telling you..

If I was a fan of one of those other teams I'd be freaking out at what a stupid idea this is, we're trading a bunch of picks for a guy 1 strike from suspension that wants huge cash.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 06:00 PM
We're on the same page on this I'm telling you..

If I was a fan of one of those other teams I'd be freaking out at what a stupid idea this is, we're trading a bunch of picks for a guy 1 strike from suspension that wants huge cash.

I know. There are some things we agree on, usually player value and how to build a team.

We were on the same page with LJ as well, and it has been said many times over the last 48 hours, but when Allen gets busted a year or two, or three down the road, or has 7 sacks next year, the people whining will be the same saying "Carl's an idiot - why didn't he trade him when he had the chance?"

Bowser
04-18-2008, 06:01 PM
Bottom line with this whole thing is that the Chiefs ended up between a rock and a hard place. They are aparently trying to get rid of their best player on defense, but aren't comfortable giving a guy who's one Coors Light away from a year long suspension a huge contract (rightfully).

Where I think Carl screwed up is when he went public stating that Allen had to stay clean. You don't have to call your guys out like that; everybody knew how bad he had screwed up. Making him an "example" by keeping him on a leash contractually just to appease the new commish was unnecessary. Keep it in house, and your message will be just as loud, and you don't have a star player firing back publically about how he won't play if he's franchised with the same media guys you used to start the whole mess.

BigChiefFan
04-18-2008, 06:01 PM
That's basically my view, no matter how good a player has been. Allens behavior doesn't warrant what he wants. I think it is a horrible idea to make the face of your franchise a guy with his problems..

He gets caught again the Chiefs become a PSA "The face of this team is an alcoholic" it all ends bad.
The face of the franchise is an incompetent GM, who runs off good players and rather than working towards resolve, always find a way to bully great players right out of town.

Bowser
04-18-2008, 06:02 PM
I don't think the conversation is about now, at least not my part of it. The discussion had moved on to why the Chiefs didn't give him extension last year, which is apparently one of the reasons the deal's so difficult now. This all goes back to when Allen was upset because Peterson called him an "at risk player" last year...

I agree.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 06:03 PM
It has been a year, it wouldn't have been wise to do it right after and I still don't think it's wise..

But if the Chiefs had done it when Rain Man is implying that is basically daring the commissioner to make an example of you.

Kinda like the Cowboys talking trade for Pacman Jones, or the Chargers signing and supporting 49 players with steroid suspensions, or whoever signed that Bears DT with the gun stuff, or the teams thinking of drafting the guy with the Myspace full of drug photos, or the Redskins keeping Sean Taylor after he ran with his gang to shoot at people, or the Broncos keeping their drug-hazed rookie with 82 previous convictions, or the Broncos drafting that running back whose name I've already forgotten, or the Steelers keeping Porter after he attacked that Bengal in a casino a year after he himself got shot, or the Saints drafting Reggie Bush during an investigation of illegal payments, or the Bengals...holy cow, what haven't the Bengals done...or ...

Yeah, I'm sure he's thinking that the Chiefs are the problem.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 06:03 PM
It's really a bad deal for Minnesota, IMO.

They aren't one player away. Not even 3 players away.

Their defense isn't the problem, and using 2 picks and $100M to add to it is retarded, IMO.

Spend those picks and that money on a QB, some OLmen and a WR or two.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:03 PM
The face of the franchise is an incompetent GM, who runs off good players and rather than working towards resolve, always find a way to bully great players right out of town.

With some players yes, with Jared Allen I lay this one every bit if not more on him than Carl.

You really think model teams like the Colts would pay this player because I don't..

Bowser
04-18-2008, 06:05 PM
Vermeil is shedding tears of joy with how everyone wants "profile" guys.


;)

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:05 PM
It's really a bad deal for Minnesota, IMO.

They aren't one player away. Not even 3 players away.

Their defense isn't the problem, and using 2 picks and $100M to add to it is retarded, IMO.

Spend those picks and that money on a QB, some OLmen and a WR or two.

It's like I said last night with this trade you conceivably get..

Ryan/Ellis
Chris Williams
Quentin Groves
Chilo Rachal
and a CB like Terrell Thomas

what is the damn problem here? other than like Keg said to me people lose their drinking buddy.

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2008, 06:05 PM
How about the best ran team in all of football - would Pittsburgh do it?

Bowser
04-18-2008, 06:06 PM
It's really a bad deal for Minnesota, IMO.

They aren't one player away. Not even 3 players away.

Their defense isn't the problem, and using 2 picks and $100M to add to it is retarded, IMO.

Spend those picks and that money on a QB, some OLmen and a WR or two.

OK, did I miss something? Where are you getting this 100 million dollar figure?

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:06 PM
OK, did I miss something? Where are you getting this 100 million dollar figure?

Allen wants more money than Freeney got, there is debate if he's even worth that with or without his off the field issues.

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2008, 06:07 PM
OK, did I miss something? Where are you getting this 100 million dollar figure?

Its Dwight Freeney's contract.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 06:07 PM
The face of the franchise is an incompetent GM, who runs off good players and rather than working towards resolve, always find a way to bully great players right out of town.

I love how again, as usual, Carl becomes the scapegoat.

ALLEN DID THIS TO HIMSELF.

What part of THREE DWI'S do people NOT understand?

If he didn't learn from the FIRST one, and didn't learn from the SECOND one, why in the hell should ANYONE believe that he learned from the THIRD one?

"Well, he's been clean for a year" is the most naive response anyone could possibly give.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 06:07 PM
It's like I said last night with this trade you conceivably get..

Ryan/Ellis
Chris Williams
Quentin Groves
Chilo Rachal
and a CB like Terrell Thomas

what is the damn problem here? other than like Keg said to me people lose their drinking buddy.

History says that no more than one of those guys will be a long-term starter for us. People act like draft picks are the cavalry, but in general they're one guy on a horse and a bunch of cactus.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:08 PM
History says that no more than one of those guys will be a long-term starter for us. People act like draft picks are the cavalry, but in general they're one guy on a horse and a bunch of cactus.

With that attitude lets trade all our picks for players since god forbid the Chiefs can draft properly....

I really really hate this attitude it is a losing attitude bad drafting teams will never win.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 06:09 PM
How about the best ran team in all of football - would Pittsburgh do it?

Not just no, go **** yourself no.

Old man Rooney would rise from grave and haunt the bejesus out of the city if it were even mentioned.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:10 PM
Not just no, go **** yourself no.

Old man Rooney would rise from grave and haunt the bejesus out of the city if it were even mentioned.

We should obviously just pay him whatever he wants because the Chiefs couldn't possibly draft anyone any good, love that attitude some have.

BigChiefFan
04-18-2008, 06:11 PM
Allen wants more money than Freeney got, there is debate if he's even worth that with or without his off the field issues.
That's not what the Vikings are offering, though-you all should their figures.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 06:11 PM
With that attitude lets trade all our picks for players since god forbid the Chiefs can draft properly....

I really really hate this attitude it is a losing attitude bad drafting teams will never win.

It's not an opinion. It's fact. Look at the history of any team in the league, not just the Chiefs. Pick their - whatever - pick their 1st and 2nd round picks, or their 1st and 3rd, and tell me what percentage of the time both of those players end up being strong contributors.

I dare you. Go do it.



Do it.




Go on.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 06:12 PM
Do it.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 06:12 PM
Seriously, do it.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 06:12 PM
Go on.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:13 PM
Draft picks suck, Rain Man logic.

Deberg_1990
04-18-2008, 06:14 PM
History says that no more than one of those guys will be a long-term starter for us. People act like draft picks are the cavalry, but in general they're one guy on a horse and a bunch of cactus.

With 10 or 11 picks, the law of averages states the Chiefs should be able to get:

1 or 2 studs

2 decent players

3 backups for depth

and 3 or 4 bombs

Brock
04-18-2008, 06:15 PM
It's not an opinion. It's fact. Look at the history of any team in the league, not just the Chiefs. Pick their - whatever - pick their 1st and 2nd round picks, or their 1st and 3rd, and tell me what percentage of the time both of those players end up being strong contributors.

I dare you. Go do it.



Do it.




Go on.

Take a look at the New England Patriots over the past few years.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:16 PM
How about the Colts and Chargers, they have drafted basically their entire teams, guess they don't count.

Bowser
04-18-2008, 06:17 PM
Draft picks suck, Rain Man logic.

Not that you haven't figured this out, but what he's saying is that there is little to no chance of the Chiefs (or maybe anyone) finding a talent like Jared Allen with those picks.

I agree with both of you. It's insanity to trade away a guy in his prime that is an elite player at a prime position, but it's very possible that you will cripple yourself as a team if said player screws up just once fi you keep him.

keg in kc
04-18-2008, 06:18 PM
Vermeil is shedding tears of joy with how everyone wants "profile" guys.Thinking a guy who's already been suspended for repeatedly doing something is a risk isn't really a "profile" thing.

I don't personally care if he parties like it's 1999 24/7/365. But it only takes one slip up.

The other part of the issue is the fact that Jared's shopping himself. It's not KC shopping him...

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 06:18 PM
ROFL

I can't believe you are comparing the clowns in out front office to the Pats, Colts and Chargers. WTF have you seen that makes you think for a second our draft ability is anywhere near that level? Nothing, I suspect.

Not that you haven't figured this out, but what he's saying is that there is little to no chance of the Chiefs (or maybe anyone) finding a talent like Jared Allen with those picks.


Considering we drafted JA primarily because of his long-snapping ability, no kidding.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 06:19 PM
Take a look at the New England Patriots over the past few years.

Or the Chargers, 2001 - present.

Boy, that 2004 draft of theirs really sucked.

If by "sucked" you mean "completely rebuilt the team."

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 06:21 PM
It's like I said last night with this trade you conceivably get..

Ryan/Ellis
Chris Williams
Quentin Groves
Chilo Rachal
and a CB like Terrell Thomas

what is the damn problem here? other than like Keg said to me people lose their drinking buddy.

None of those players will have an impact like JA. Teams had to plan for JA-now they will bitch slap us every week. THAT is what you are not understanding. Fans like him because he plays his Ass off on the field-Not because they want a drinking buddy.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 06:21 PM
ROFL

I can't believe you two are comparing the clowns in out front office to the Pats, Colts and Chargers. WTF have you seen that makes you think for a second our draft ability is anywhere near that level? Nothing, I suspect.



Considering we drafted JA primarily because of his long-snapping ability, no kidding.

**** it, call the league.

We're forfeiting all of our picks this year. We haven't drafted well in the past, so why bother now....

Bowser
04-18-2008, 06:22 PM
Thinking a guy who's already been suspended for repeatedly doing something is a risk isn't really a "profile" thing.

I don't personally care if he parties like it's 1999 24/7/365. But it only takes one slip up.

The other part of the issue is the fact that Jared's shopping himself. It's not KC shopping him...

All true. But if KC were REALLY interested in keeping him, they would have slapped the "exclusive rights" franchise tag on him. You could argue that the Chiefs ARE shopping him by not doing that.

Bottom line is that this whole situation sucks, regardless if we get a bunch of prime draft picks or not.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 06:23 PM
Do it. Don't give me stories about the exceptions. Build the stats and look at the long term, and tell me what our expected value from a 1st and 2nd round pick is.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:23 PM
None of those players will have an impact like JA. Teams had to plan for JA-now they will bitch slap us every week. THAT is what you are not understanding. Fans like him because he plays his Ass off on the field-Not because they want a drinking buddy.

It would really suck to fill the 2 most important positions on offense with highly thought of players wouldn't it..

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 06:23 PM
Not that you haven't figured this out, but what he's saying is that there is little to no chance of the Chiefs (or maybe anyone) finding a talent like Jared Allen with those picks.

I agree with both of you. It's insanity to trade away a guy in his prime that is an elite player at a prime position, but it's very possible that you will cripple yourself as a team if said player screws up just once fi you keep him.

:clap: You can build a SB quality D around JA-without him-the Cheaps go 2-14.

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 06:24 PM
**** it, call the league.

We're forfeiting all of our picks this year. We haven't drafted well in the past, so why bother now....

It's a serious question. You all are trumpeting the draft picks like they are this teams salvation. I just want an honest answer from people claiming this what they have seen from Carl/Herm that makes them believe we can turn those picks into players that have even close to the impact on a game that Jared has.

It's the same question Rain Man asked repeatedly, (as have I) but no one seems to want to answer it. Could that because you don't believe it either? I suspect so. :hmmm:

Do it. Don't give me stories about the exceptions. Build the stats and look at the long term, and tell me what our expected value from a 1st and 2nd round pick is.

:clap:

I asked this several times yesterday, and got the most roundabout evasive answers I've seen outside of DC.

I suspect we aren't going to get an answer.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:24 PM
:clap: You can build a SB quality D around JA-without him-the Cheaps go 2-14.

In case you haven't noticed this is about 3 years from now not next year, this team is not going to be good with or without him right now.

Bowser
04-18-2008, 06:24 PM
Considering we drafted JA primarily because of his long-snapping ability, no kidding.

Drafting Jared Allen is akin to Mendy Lopez crushing a walk off home run to deepest center field to beat the White Sox on opening day - you never saw it coming, but couldn't be happier with the results.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 06:25 PM
If you can prove to me statistically that we'll get better performers on the field with a 1st and 2nd round pick instead of Jared Allen, I will type 100x "Dick Vermeil is better than Marty."

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:26 PM
It's a serious question. You all are trumpeting the draft picks like they are this teams salvation. I just want an honest answer from people claiming this what they have seen from Carl/Herm that makes them believe we can turn those picks into players that have even close to the impact on a game that Jared has.

It's the same question Rain Man asked repeatedly, (as have I) but no one seems to want to answer it. Could that because you don't believe it either? I suspect so. :hmmm:

It's the only way you'll ever win, you have to atleast have hope in it because if you don't there is NO HOPE that the team will ever win.

If I viewed it like you and Rain Man I'd just ****in give up because that picture you paint is basically one with no hope of ever being anything, and people say that I'm negative.

Bowser
04-18-2008, 06:27 PM
Side note: This is probably as fired up as I've Rain Man in my time here.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 06:27 PM
It would really suck to fill the 2 most important positions on offense with highly thought of players wouldn't it..

you can do that without giving away the BEST player this team has had since Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas.

Vikes will risk the 70 mil because the chances for a SB go up 10 fold. They will easily Dominate their division and maybe the NFC with JA killing the QBs-Orton, Rodgers, and all the other shitty NFC QB's.

JA will have 18 plus sacks every season over the next 4 to 6 years and play on a contender-I really doubt that he cares about your opinion.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 06:29 PM
Side note: This is probably as fired up as I've Rain Man in my time here.

Do it. Seriously.


Or wait. Are you on my side?

Brock
04-18-2008, 06:29 PM
ROFL

I can't believe you are comparing the clowns in out front office to the Pats, Colts and Chargers. WTF have you seen that makes you think for a second our draft ability is anywhere near that level? Nothing, I suspect.



Considering we drafted JA primarily because of his long-snapping ability, no kidding.

Well, Jesus Christ, let's not even bother drafting then.

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 06:29 PM
If I viewed it like you and Rain Man I'd just ****in give up because that picture you paint is basically one with no hope of ever being anything, and people say that I'm negative.

Heh. Thanks for the advice, but I out waited that idiot Steadman, and I'll do the same to Carl.

It's a simple question. I can't imagine why you won't give a direct answer. What have you seen from Carl/Herm that gives you any faith in their ability to draft even close to the level of the Colts, Pats, Bolts, Etc. ?
Well, Jesus Christ, let's not even bother drafting then.

More evasion, but no answer. LMAO

I suspect you haven't seen anything to support it, which is why you all keep dodging a simple question.


Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things, but answering it would be a little more intellectually honest than dancing around it again and again.

Chiefnj2
04-18-2008, 06:30 PM
It's the only way you'll ever win, you have to atleast have hope in it because if you don't there is NO HOPE that the team will ever win.
.

No. As usual, you are wrong.

You win by drafting, developing and KEEPING your young talented players. There is no point drafting and developing if you don't keep them through their prime playing time.

CoMoChief
04-18-2008, 06:30 PM
Actually, nothing will feel as gross as it did the day I learned Derrick had died. I took that harder than most deaths I've experienced in life.

If that includes friends, peers, or family members then you are a complete ****ing tool.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 06:30 PM
It's a serious question. You all are trumpeting the draft picks like they are this teams salvation. I just want an honest answer from people claiming this what they have seen from Carl/Herm that makes them believe we can turn those picks into players that have even close to the impact on a game that Jared has.

It's the same question Rain Man asked repeatedly, (as have I) but no one seems to want to answer it. Could that because you don't believe it either? I suspect so. :hmmm:



:clap:

I asked this several times yesterday, and got the most roundabout evasive answers I've seen outside of DC. I suspect we aren't going to get an answer.


I can only speak for myself, but I'm not necessarily "trumpeting" the draft picks.

Seeing as how they would probably play different positions, it be pretty hard to gauge what is better for the team.

I think that overall, -insert players here- could do more for this team long term together than Allen could do by himself.

My biggest issue with this is the money he wants and the risks he possesses.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 06:30 PM
It's the only way you'll ever win, you have to atleast have hope in it because if you don't there is NO HOPE that the team will ever win.

If I viewed it like you and Rain Man I'd just ****in give up because that picture you paint is basically one with no hope of ever being anything, and people say that I'm negative.

JA is Carls second best pick ever-just because he resisted the Leisure King's gay advances-he should not be slammed by the front office in the media. Carl could have taken carre of his contract quietly, gave him a fair deal and put plenty of clauses in case JA messes up again.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 06:31 PM
In case you haven't noticed this is about 3 years from now not next year, this team is not going to be good with or without him right now.

that sounds like a blanket Negative statement

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 06:32 PM
I can only speak for myself, but I'm not necessarily "trumpeting" the draft picks.

Seeing as how they would probably play different positions, it be pretty hard to gauge what is better for the team.

I think that overall, -insert players here- could do more for this team long term together than Allen could do by himself.

My biggest issue with this is the money he wants and the risks he possesses.


True, and thank you. I can appreciate that. It's primarily Mecca who keeps bringing up the Colts, Bolts, and Pats as points of comparison. That's what I want him to address. What on earth has he seen that makes that a valid comparison to Herm and Carl, other than wishful thinking?

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:33 PM
No. As usual, you are wrong.

You win by drafting, developing and KEEPING your young talented players. There is no point drafting and developing if you don't keep them through their prime playing time.

You said Jared Allen getting suspended wasn't a big deal yesterday too...

keg in kc
04-18-2008, 06:33 PM
All true. But if KC were REALLY interested in keeping him, they would have slapped the "exclusive rights" franchise tag on him. You could argue that the Chiefs ARE shopping him by not doing that.I'm not sure I'd read a whole lot into that.

Seattle signed Trufant to that same non-exclusive tag in February, then he got a new deal a month later...

Personally, I think it's probably a good thing he can talk to other teams, if he really is dead-set against signing a long-term deal here.

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 06:34 PM
I can only speak for myself, but I'm not necessarily "trumpeting" the draft picks.

Seeing as how they would probably play different positions, it be pretty hard to gauge what is better for the team.

I think that overall, -insert players here- could do more for this team long term together than Allen could do by himself.

My biggest issue with this is the money he wants and the risks he possesses.

no Risk no Reward

JA will Dominate with the Vikes.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 06:34 PM
True, and thank you. I can appreciate that. It's primarily Mecca who keeps bringing up the Colts, Bolts, and Pats as points of comparison. That's what I want him to address.

He and I basically share the same opinion on this.

OnTheWarpath58
04-18-2008, 06:36 PM
No. As usual, you are wrong.

You win by drafting, developing and KEEPING your young talented players. There is no point drafting and developing if you don't keep them through their prime playing time.

Tell that to the Patriots. Asante Samuel.

The Colts. Marshall Faulk and Edgerrin James.

Just three examples of great organizations who either traded (Faulk) or LET WALK superstar players who they drafted and played with them 5 years or less.

Bowser
04-18-2008, 06:38 PM
Do it. Seriously.


Or wait. Are you on my side?

Yes, sir. I'm on your side. Please don't kill me.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 06:48 PM
Okay, I'll start.

Let's look at 1995. 23 teams held 1st and 2nd round picks. (Two of those are the Jaguars.) Their picks are shown below.

How many of these pairs would you prefer over Jared Allen? Give me a score. Is it 1? 10? 23? And in how many cases did the team get two solid 3+ year starters in those two picks?

1 2 Tony Boselli Jaguars T USC 2 8 40 Brian DeMarco Jaguars DT Michigan State
1 3 Steve McNair Oilers QB Alcorn State 2 3 35 Anthony Cook Oilers DT South Carolina State
1 4 Michael Westbrook Redskins WR Colorado 2 5 37 Cory Raymer Redskins C Wisconsin
1 5 Kerry Collins Panthers QB Penn State 2 4 36 Shawn King Panthers DE N.E. Louisiana
1 6 Kevin Carter Rams DE Florida 2 30 62 Jesse James Rams G Mississippi State
1 7 Mike Mamula Eagles DE Boston College 2 18 50 Bobby Taylor Eagles DB Notre Dame
1 8 Joey Galloway Seahawks WR Ohio State 2 7 39 Christian Fauria Seahawks TE Colorado
1 9 Kyle Brady Jets TE Penn State 2 1 33 Matt O'Dwyer Jets G Northwestern
1 11 Derrick Alexander Vikings DE Florida State 2 10 42 Orlando Thomas Vikings DB Southwestern Louisiana
1 13 Mark Fields Saints LB Washington State 2 12 44 Ray Zellars Saints RB Notre Dame
1 14 Ruben Brown Bills G Pittsburgh 2 13 45 Todd Collins Bills QB Michigan
1 15 Ellis Johnson Colts DT Florida 2 16 48 Ken Dilger Colts TE Illinois
1 17 Tyrone Wheatley Giants RB Michigan 2 22 54 Scott Gragg Giants T Montana
1 18 Napoleon Kaufman Raiders RB Washington 2 17 49 Barret Robbins Raiders C Texas Christian
1 19 James Stewart Jaguars RB Tennessee 2 32 64 Bryan Schwartz Jaguars LB Augustana (IL)
1 21 Rashaan Salaam Bears RB Colorado 2 20 52 Patrick Riley Bears DT Miami (FL)
1 23 Ty Law Patriots DB Michigan 2 25 57 Ted Johnson Patriots LB Colorado
1 24 Korey Stringer Vikings T Ohio State 2 23 55 Corey Fuller Vikings DB Florida State
1 25 Billy Milner Dolphins T Houston 2 21 53 Andrew Greene Dolphins G Indiana
1 26 Devin Bush Falcons DB Florida State 2 9 41 Ronald Davis Falcons DB Tennessee
1 27 Mark Bruener Steelers TE Washington 2 28 60 Kordell Stewart Steelers QB Colorado
1 28 Derrick Brooks Buccaneers LB Florida State 2 11 43 Melvin Johnson Buccaneers DB Kentucky
1 29 Blake Brockermeyer Panthers T Texas 2 24 56 Todd Sauerbrun Bears P West Virginia

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 06:51 PM
Okay, I'll start.

Let's look at 1995. 23 teams held 1st and 2nd round picks. (Two of those are the Jaguars.) Their picks are shown below.

How many of these pairs would you prefer over Jared Allen? Give me a score. Is it 1? 10? 23? And in how many cases did the team get two solid 3+ year starters in those two picks?

1 2 Tony Boselli Jaguars T USC 2 8 40 Brian DeMarco Jaguars DT Michigan State
1 3 Steve McNair Oilers QB Alcorn State 2 3 35 Anthony Cook Oilers DT South Carolina State
1 4 Michael Westbrook Redskins WR Colorado 2 5 37 Cory Raymer Redskins C Wisconsin
1 5 Kerry Collins Panthers QB Penn State 2 4 36 Shawn King Panthers DE N.E. Louisiana
1 6 Kevin Carter Rams DE Florida 2 30 62 Jesse James Rams G Mississippi State
1 7 Mike Mamula Eagles DE Boston College 2 18 50 Bobby Taylor Eagles DB Notre Dame
1 8 Joey Galloway Seahawks WR Ohio State 2 7 39 Christian Fauria Seahawks TE Colorado
1 9 Kyle Brady Jets TE Penn State 2 1 33 Matt O'Dwyer Jets G Northwestern
1 11 Derrick Alexander Vikings DE Florida State 2 10 42 Orlando Thomas Vikings DB Southwestern Louisiana
1 13 Mark Fields Saints LB Washington State 2 12 44 Ray Zellars Saints RB Notre Dame
1 14 Ruben Brown Bills G Pittsburgh 2 13 45 Todd Collins Bills QB Michigan
1 15 Ellis Johnson Colts DT Florida 2 16 48 Ken Dilger Colts TE Illinois
1 17 Tyrone Wheatley Giants RB Michigan 2 22 54 Scott Gragg Giants T Montana
1 18 Napoleon Kaufman Raiders RB Washington 2 17 49 Barret Robbins Raiders C Texas Christian
1 19 James Stewart Jaguars RB Tennessee 2 32 64 Bryan Schwartz Jaguars LB Augustana (IL)
1 21 Rashaan Salaam Bears RB Colorado 2 20 52 Patrick Riley Bears DT Miami (FL)
1 23 Ty Law Patriots DB Michigan 2 25 57 Ted Johnson Patriots LB Colorado
1 24 Korey Stringer Vikings T Ohio State 2 23 55 Corey Fuller Vikings DB Florida State
1 25 Billy Milner Dolphins T Houston 2 21 53 Andrew Greene Dolphins G Indiana
1 26 Devin Bush Falcons DB Florida State 2 9 41 Ronald Davis Falcons DB Tennessee
1 27 Mark Bruener Steelers TE Washington 2 28 60 Kordell Stewart Steelers QB Colorado
1 28 Derrick Brooks Buccaneers LB Florida State 2 11 43 Melvin Johnson Buccaneers DB Kentucky
1 29 Blake Brockermeyer Panthers T Texas 2 24 56 Todd Sauerbrun Bears P West Virginia

the double Corey/Korey picks were an abomination of bad luck.

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 07:00 PM
He and I basically share the same opinion on this.

:rolleyes:

He's not the one that isn't willing to defend his repeated comparisons of the KC front office with the Bolts, Colts, and Pats.

That's all I'm asking. What have you seen that leads you to believe that's a valid comparison? It's the same question Rain Man has repeatedly asked.

Instead of answering, you keep doing this shuffle. Could it be you don't believe your own :BS:? I suspect so.

Like I said, it doesn't matter a bit in the scheme of things, but it would be more intellectually honest than the song and dance routine you've been doing for two days now.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 07:00 PM
Here's my thinking:

4 out of 23 would be worth trading for Jared Allen. Maybe 5 if you're really generous. Only 1 of those pairs got 2 starters. The others just got one really, really good player, and half of those were top-five picks.

Perhaps 7 out of 23 got two starters from their first two picks.



Jaguars - 1 great player, 1 bust - Yes
Oilers - 1 great player, 1 bust - Yes
Redskins - 1 solid starter, 1 marginal player - No
Panthers - 1 alcoholic starter, 1 bust - No
Rams - 1 solid starter, almost a star, 1 bust - No
Eagles - 1 strong starter, 1 bust - No
Seahawks - 1 really overrated long-term guy, 1 long-term starter - No
Jets - 2 unspectacular starters - No
Vikings - 1 multi-year starter, 1 semi-bust - No
Saints - 1 strong starter, 1 journeyman - No
Bills - 1 multiple pro bowler, 1 suspended animation "break glass in case of fire" backup - Yes, to be generous
Colts - 1 unspectacular starter, 1 solid starter - No
Giants - 2 modest starters - No
Raiders - 2 strong players with short careers - Maybe?
Jaguars - 1 solid starter, 1 short-term starter - No
Bears - For the love of god - No
Patriots - 1 multiple all pro, 1 lawsuit and solid starter - Yes
Vikings - 1 tragedy, 1 solid starter (I think) - No
Dolphins - Who ARE these people? No
Falcons - 1 marginal, 1 bust - No
Steelers - 1 unspectacular starter, 1 flash in pan - No
Buccaneers - 1 multiple all-pro, 1 bust - Yes, to be generous
Bears - 1 semi-bust, 1 unstable punter - No

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 07:01 PM
the double Corey/Korey picks were an abomination of bad luck.

Did something bad happen to Corey Fuller, too?

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 07:02 PM
Let's try another year. 1998?

Halfcan
04-18-2008, 07:05 PM
Did something bad happen to Corey Fuller, too?

no talent

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 07:13 PM
Here's 1998. 24 pairs of 1's and 2's.

1 1 1 Peyton Manning Colts QB Tennessee 2 2 32 Jerome Pathon Colts WR Washington
1 2 2 Ryan Leaf Chargers QB Washington State 2 29 59 Mikhael Ricks Chargers WR Stephen F. Austin
1 3 3 Andre Wadsworth Cardinals DE Florida State 2 3 33 Corey Chavous Cardinals DB Vanderbilt
1 4 4 Charles Woodson Raiders DB Michigan 2 1 31 Leon Bender Raiders DT Washington State
1 5 5 Curtis Enis Bears RB Penn State 2 5 35 Tony Parrish Bears DB Washington
1 6 6 Grant Wistrom Rams DE Nebraska 2 7 37 Robert Holcombe Rams RB Illinois
1 7 7 Kyle Turley Saints T San Diego State 2 10 40 Cameron Cleeland Saints TE Washington
1 8 8 Greg Ellis Cowboys DE North Carolina 2 8 38 Flozell Adams Cowboys T Michigan State
1 10 10 Duane Starks Ravens DB Miami (FL) 2 12 42 Patrick Johnson Ravens WR Oregon
1 12 12 Keith Brooking Falcons LB Georgia Tech 2 23 53 Bob Hallen Falcons G Kent State
1 13 13 Takeo Spikes Bengals LB Auburn 2 13 43 Artrell Hawkins Bengals DB Cincinnati
1 14 14 Jason Peter Panthers DT Nebraska
1 15 15 Anthony Simmons Seahawks LB Clemson 2 17 47 Todd Weiner Seahawks T Kansas State
1 16 16 Kevin Dyson Oilers WR Utah 2 16 46 Samari Rolle Oilers DB Florida State
1 18 18 Robert Edwards Patriots RB Georgia 2 22 52 Tony Simmons Patriots WR Wisconsin
1 20 20 Terry Fair Lions DB Tennessee 2 30 60 Charlie Batch Lions QB Eastern Michigan
1 21 21 Randy Moss Vikings WR Marshall 2 21 51 Kailee Wong Vikings DE Stanford
1 22 22 Tebucky Jones Patriots DB Syracuse 2 24 54 Rod Rutledge Patriots TE Alabama
1 24 24 Shaun Williams Giants DB UCLA 2 25 55 Joe Jurevicius Giants WR Penn State
1 25 25 Donovin Darius Jaguars DB Syracuse 2 27 57 Cordell Taylor Jaguars DB Hampton
1 26 26 Alan Faneca Steelers G Louisiana State 2 11 41 Jeremy Staat Steelers DE Arizona State
1 28 28 R.W. McQuarters 49ers DB Oklahoma State 2 28 58 Jeremy Newberry 49ers C California
1 29 29 John Avery Dolphins RB Mississippi 2 14 44 Patrick Surtain Dolphins DB Southern Mississippi
1 30 30 Marcus Nash Broncos WR Tennessee 2 31 61 Eric Brown Broncos DB Mississippi State

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 07:14 PM
LMAO Brutal.

Keep going, Mr. Rain Man. It's pretty clear Mecca is not willing (or able) to defend his repeated comparisons.

At least not with anything more substantial than "you've gotta BELIEVE!". :hmmm: Mecca=Tony Pena.

Mecca
04-18-2008, 07:17 PM
In fairness.....

8 Greg Ellis Cowboys DE North Carolina 2 8 38 Flozell Adams Cowboys T Michigan State

Is a pretty awesome first 2 picks.

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 07:19 PM
In fairness.....

8 Greg Ellis Cowboys DE North Carolina 2 8 38 Flozell Adams Cowboys T Michigan State

Is a pretty awesome first 2 picks.

OK, that would be acceptable.

What have you seen that makes you think Carl/Herm are capable of pulling off a combination like that?

Or as you've repeatedly compared, the Bolts, Colts, and Pats? LMAO LMAO

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 07:27 PM
Correction - there were 23 pairs.

I come up with 3 pairs from 1998 that I would trade Jared for, maybe 4 for a generous person. One of those brought 2 strong starters to the team.

I see 5 pairs that came up with 2 starters, most of whom were unspectacular.

Come on, guys. Join the fun. Tell me that there's not an 80 percent chance that this trade will be a disaster.




Colts - 1 beatified saint, 1 solid backup - Yes
Chargers - 1 Hindenburg hauling a gas truck, 1 journeyman - No
Cardinals - 1 bust, 1 solid starter (I think) - No
Raiders - 1 strong starter, 1 tragedy - No
Bears - Wow. No.
Rams - 1 strong/solid starter, 1 modest starter - No
Saints - 1 strong starter, 1 bust - No
Cowboys - 1 all pro, 1 strong starter - Yes
Ravens - 1 solid starter, 1 flash in pan - No
Falcons - 1 multiple pro bowler, 1 anonymous guy - Maybe, if we're generous
Bengals - 1 pro bowler, 1 ... don't remember. No
Seahawks - 1 strong starter, 1 solid starter (I think) - Probably not
Oilers - 1 semi-all pro, 1 semi-solid starter - No
Patriots - 1 semi-tragedy, 1 bust - No
Lions - 1 flash in pan, 1 journeyman - No
Vikings - 1 stoned, cop-hitting, ref-splashing, slacking potential Hall of Famer, 1 marginal starter - Yes, if we're generous
Patriots - 1 marginal starter, 1 bust - No
Giants - 2 marginal guys - No
Jaguars - 1 multiple pro bowler, 1 bust - No, lower impact position
Steelers - 1 multiple pro bowler, 1 bust - No, lower impact position
49ers - 2 somewhat reasonable starters - No
Dolphins - 1 pro bowler, 1 bust - No
Broncos - Hahahahahahahaha - No, and it made me feel good to write it.

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 07:29 PM
Rain Man, there is not an 80 percent chance that this trade will be a disaster.

Considering Carl/Herm...it's probably considerably higher. :banghead:

I'd love to be wrong, but looking at the track record I don't see it.

keg in kc
04-18-2008, 07:29 PM
The results of the past are no guarantee on the future, positive or negative. And that's just not a good argument, because there's no point in drafting at all if you can't possibly pick anyone good. Might as well drop all 10 of the draft picks we have now, since there's no chance that any of them will turn out well...

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 07:30 PM
In fairness.....

8 Greg Ellis Cowboys DE North Carolina 2 8 38 Flozell Adams Cowboys T Michigan State

Is a pretty awesome first 2 picks.


I'll agree with you there. I'd trade Jared Allen for that draft.

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 07:31 PM
The results of the past are no guarantee on the future, positive or negative. And that's just not a good argument, because there's no point in drafting at all if you can't possibly pick anyone good. Might as well drop all 10 of the draft picks we have now, since there's no chance that any of them will turn out well...

So, like Mecca Pena, all we can do is BELIEVE! :shake: :deevee:

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 07:32 PM
Rain Man, there is not an 80 percent chance that this trade will be a disaster.

Considering Carl/Herm...it's probably considerably higher. :banghead:

I'd love to be wrong, but looking at the track record I don't see it.

Not to mention the fact that having exta picks would likely make them feel free to take a flyer and do something out of the box. That's not even a criticism of our team's management - I think any person would feel a higher risk tolerance with more picks.

I'll do more years later, but right now I have to go eat some sushi.

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 07:34 PM
I'll do more years later, but right now I have to go eat some sushi.

:cuss: I want some Ahi!

booger
04-18-2008, 07:35 PM
this may have been asked already but..........

Rainman, could you root for the spawn of Howie if he were to dawn the red and gold?

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 07:37 PM
:cuss: I want some Ahi!

Unagi is where it's at, man. Unagi.

Bowser
04-18-2008, 07:40 PM
If your food sounds like guttural grunts, don't eat it.

Rain Man
04-18-2008, 07:41 PM
this may have been asked already but..........

Rainman, could you root for the spawn of Howie if he were to dawn the red and gold?


That is a very difficult question. It's like Hitler's son starting a nonprofit to help animals. You want to believe, but at the same time the memories are so horrible.

I like to think that this would just be God's way of fixing the whole Howie Long thing, and making it right, so yes. I think I could.

There's a little thread in that that would be fascinating, too.

Ed Budde dominates at his position.

His son comes in at the same position, and gets dominated by Howie Long, even though Howie Long cheated. (I have to add that.)

Howie Long's son now comes in at the same position group. Whoever he dominates will have a son in the NFL, or my eerie premonition skills are way off base.

booger
04-18-2008, 07:43 PM
That is a very difficult question. It's like Hitler's son starting a nonprofit to help animals. You want to believe, but at the same time the memories are so horrible.

I like to think that this would just be God's way of fixing the whole Howie Long thing, and making it right, so yes. I think I could.

There's a little thread in that that would be fascinating, too.

Ed Budde dominates at his position.

His son comes in at the same position, and gets dominated by Howie Long, even though Howie Long cheated. (I have to add that.)

Howie Long's son now comes in at the same position group. Whoever he dominates will have a son in the NFL, or my eerie premonition skills are way off base.


LOL, Vernon Gholston it is then.

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 07:44 PM
That is a very difficult question. It's like Hitler's son starting a nonprofit to help animals. You want to believe, but at the same time the memories are so horrible.

I like to think that this would just be God's way of fixing the whole Howie Long thing, and making it right, so yes. I think I could.

There's a little thread in that that would be fascinating, too.

Ed Budde dominates at his position.

His son comes in at the same position, and gets dominated by Howie Long, even though Howie Long cheated. (I have to add that.)

Howie Long's son now comes in at the same position group. Whoever he dominates will have a son in the NFL, or my eerie premonition skills are way off base.

Good call, it's not like he's Ben Davidson's kid. :thumb:

booger
04-18-2008, 07:49 PM
Good call, it's not like he's Ben Davidson's kid. :thumb:

No his kid was arrested for screwing a patio furniture umbrella shade.

There is a thread about it on here somewhere.

Adept Havelock
04-18-2008, 07:59 PM
No his kid was arrested for screwing a patio furniture umbrella shade.

There is a thread about it on here somewhere.

:eek:

I remember the story, but didn't realize it was Ben Davidson's kid. LMAO

booger
04-18-2008, 08:07 PM
:eek:

I remember the story, but didn't realize it was Ben Davidson's kid. LMAO

i'm not entirely sure either. But i choose to see it that way and it makes me feel better about the world.

Chiefnj2
04-18-2008, 09:14 PM
Tell that to the Patriots. Asante Samuel.

The Colts. Marshall Faulk and Edgerrin James.

Just three examples of great organizations who either traded (Faulk) or LET WALK superstar players who they drafted and played with them 5 years or less.

Did those teams have other star players? Did the Patriots have anyone other than Samuel, because Allen is the only defensive standout on KC.

BigRedChief
04-18-2008, 10:44 PM
Michael Smith on ESPN said that the Vikes offered their first rounder and third 3rd rounder in 2008 or Their 1st this year and their 2nd rounder in 2009. Chiefs could chose 2nd next year or 3rd this year.

Chiefs countered offered with 1st and 2nd this year.

KevB
04-19-2008, 12:06 AM
Michael Smith on ESPN said that the Vikes offered their first rounder and third 3rd rounder in 2008 or Their 1st this year and their 2nd rounder in 2009. Chiefs could chose 2nd next year or 3rd this year.

Chiefs countered offered with 1st and 2nd this year.

Somebody on another board says that Smith came back and said the deal was almost done. Allen has his deal with the Vikings, and the Chiefs were trying to get the earlier of the two 3rd round picks.