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thurman merman
04-19-2008, 11:18 AM
I don't understand why people keep saying that, like it's Jared Allen's fault that the Chiefs sucked. They won four games because their offensive line sucked and their QBs sucked and their wide receivers sucked and their cornerbacks sucked and their defensive tackles sucked, etc. etc.

It's not like because they sucked one year, Jared Allen will never be a difference-maker. If they keep Allen, and build a defense around him, and actually used some of their ridiculously unused cap money on some offense, the Chiefs could be a contending team within a couple of years.

I just don't understand this widespread logic of "Oh, since the Chiefs only won four games last year, Jared Allen is completely useless to this team."

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 11:22 AM
I can think of three games off the top of my head that if Allen had shown up in the second half, we might very well have won.

Being a difference maker means just that, for all sixty minutes of a game.

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 11:24 AM
I can see that argument as more of a justification for "we sucked with him, so we can't suck that much more without him".

Direckshun
04-19-2008, 11:26 AM
I can think of three games off the top of my head that if Allen had shown up in the second half, we might very well have won.

Being a difference maker means just that, for all sixty minutes of a game.
We didn't have a 3rd DE, though. Wilkerson applied zero pressure, so he didn't get a lot of playing time.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 11:27 AM
We didn't have a 3rd DE, though. Wilkerson applied zero pressure, so he didn't get a lot of playing time.

Who is the Colts 3rd DE again?

thurman merman
04-19-2008, 11:31 AM
I can think of three games off the top of my head that if Allen had shown up in the second half, we might very well have won.

Being a difference maker means just that, for all sixty minutes of a game.

i can think of several games that he single-handedly won in his time with the chiefs, too.

BigChiefFan
04-19-2008, 11:34 AM
It's funny to see how many turn on their own, because a player wants to get paid. This happens every ****ing year with mutiple teams-I'm surprised so many are taking the FOs side, when the track record of Carl is highly documented. Sorry, but Carl's a prick and he has handled this as unprofessionally as possible.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 11:35 AM
i can think of several games that he single-handedly won in his time with the chiefs, too.

First, I'd love to see which games you are considering that Allen won all by himself.

Second, I'm talking about 2007, because YOU'RE talking about 2007. 4 wins.

Direckshun
04-19-2008, 11:36 AM
Who is the Colts 3rd DE again?
Yeah, that's fair.

But Allen is not the gaping liability against the run like Freeney is.

But yeah, I get you.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 11:37 AM
It's funny to see how many turn on their own, because a player wants to get paid. This happens every ****ing year with mutiple teams-I'm surprised so many are taking the FOs side, when the track record of Carl is highly documented. Sorry, but Carl's a prick and he has handled this as unprofessionally as possible.


If he wanted to get paid, he should have learned from the first or second DWI, not the third.

And that's assuming he's learned his lesson at all.

If you're naive enough to think that him being (supposedly) clean for one whole year mean he'll never make that mistake again (after making it 3 times in the past) then by all means, continue to bash Carl.

Allen isn't worth Freeney money WITHOUT all the off the field issues.

Deberg_1990
04-19-2008, 11:38 AM
Its a team game. There are not many positions on a football team where a single man can make huge difference in the outcome of a game.

QB is the biggest impact maker.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-19-2008, 11:39 AM
I can think of three games off the top of my head that if Allen had shown up in the second half, we might very well have won.

Being a difference maker means just that, for all sixty minutes of a game.

There is an argument to be made for his second half disappearances, and a pretty strong one. He never seems to make the late, game-changing plays that Thomas did, that guy had some kind of switch.

Nevertheless, the guy is a young franchise player at a position where you can play at your apex for a long, long time.

He is worth the risk.

el borracho
04-19-2008, 11:44 AM
We will be lucky to win 3 games this year if we trade him.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 11:44 AM
There is an argument to be made for his second half disappearances, and a pretty strong one. He never seems to make the late, game-changing plays that Thomas did, that guy had some kind of switch.

Nevertheless, the guy is a young franchise player at a position where you can play at your apex for a long, long time.

He is worth the risk.

He can only play for a long time if he keeps himself clean and sober.

He performed like a superstar for one season, which happened to be a contract year. Sorry, but history shows that player will never outperform that season.

Does anyone here REALLY think that Allen is going to CONSISTENTLY put up 14 sacks a year for the next 5 years?

I don't.

BigChiefFan
04-19-2008, 11:45 AM
If he wanted to get paid, he should have learned from the first or second DWI, not the third.

And that's assuming he's learned his lesson at all.

If you're naive enough to think that him being (supposedly) clean for one whole year mean he'll never make that mistake again (after making it 3 times in the past) then by all means, continue to bash Carl.

Allen isn't worth Freeney money WITHOUT all the off the field issues.
JA is a more COMPLETE player than Freeney and besides that, the money being talked about is LESS than Freeney's contract. So you can throw that argument out the window.


I also understand the DUI thing, I really do, but I'm also smart enough to know you can put stipulations in contracts-it happens all the time-so whose the one being naive?l

Count Zarth
04-19-2008, 11:47 AM
Since so many people are trashing Allen, I wonder what you all think of the column I wrote a few months ago:

http://kan.scout.com/2/713626.html

Jared Allen was understandably excited this week, making his first Pro Bowl. It’s been a long haul for the fourth-year defensive end, from the 126th pick in the NFL draft to a DUI suspension and finally, to Hawaii, the first Kansas City defender to make the trip since 2003.
Fans will be clamoring for general manager Carl Peterson to throw the bank at Allen this offseason, and with good reason – the Chiefs have a player who has exceeded his draft status, made an impact on games and doesn’t appear to be slowing down. To let Allen get away now would be a tragedy.

I’m in agreement with all of the above. What I’m not in agreement with is giving Allen a long-term contract, not just yet.

Allen has proved quite a bit this year, but he still has more to prove. Staying clean and sober for a year was a step in the right direction – how about two? Allen’s real burden of proof lies within the gridiron, however.

For all his gaudy statistics – 11.5 sacks, eight tackles for loss, two forced fumbles, a whopping 10 passes defensed and a touchdown reception to boot – Allen is still not an elite player, Pro Bowl berth or not. Perhaps it sounds silly given the season he’s had, but over the last month it’s become more and more apparent that Allen is not deserving of the riches he probably desires.

After dominating the Oakland Raiders in a Week 7 win, Allen disappeared against that same team at Arrowhead Stadium in Week 12. Kansas City’s pass rush was noticeably absent this day, as Daunte Culpepper (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3274686) frequently had all kinds of time to stand in the pocket.

Allen rebounded with a good game against the San Diego Chargers a week later, but the last two weeks might be his worst as a pro.

The Broncos opened their December 9 contest with the Chiefs by running right at Allen, who was easily pinned to the inside on Denver’s first two offensive plays, resulting in gains of six and 50 yards. Later, Allen blew an opportunity to dump running back Selvin Young (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3156840) for a loss – the undrafted rookie cut the play back for 30 yards, leading to a field goal just before halftime.

The Broncos double-teamed Allen much of the day, yes, but not on every play. Frequently, he was handled by tight end Daniel Graham (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3037244) in single blocking. Allen’s day was so bad the only play he made all game came after the officials appeared to incite his anger by flagging him for a hands-to-the-face penalty.

Of course, Allen struggling against Denver is nothing new. In eight career games against the Broncos, he has just 1.5 sacks. The reason is Denver’s left tackle Matt Lepsis (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2983738), a veteran player who, for all his lack of press clippings, has always seemed to handle KC’s defensive end with ease.

Allen’s struggles continued against another relatively unknown player last week against the Titans – Michael Roos (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2981782). Tennessee’s third-year left tackle didn’t let Allen sniff Vince Young (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2981792) all day, and the Titans ran LenDale White right at him for 60 minutes.

Lepsis and Roos are good players, but the former is a descending lineman coming off micro fracture knee surgery. The latter is an ascending player who will one day make the Pro Bowl, but isn’t there just yet. Neither tackle can be compared to Orlando Pace or Willie Roaf (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2475254) in their primes.

So the question begs – if Allen’s play has fallen off against players like Lepsis and Roos, just how much is he worth? When the Chiefs (hopefully) someday reach the playoffs, and Allen squares off against New England's Matt Light (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2986844) or Cleveland's Joe Thomas (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3122218), how effective will he be? And even then, there’s the question of Allen’s abilities as a clutch player.

When was the last time you remember Jared Allen (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2980078) coming up with a huge sack or strip late in a game? As good as Allen has been this year, he just has one sack after halftime and none in the fourth quarter. It’s not as if the Chiefs have always been playing from behind – they had leads against Green Bay, Oakland and Tennessee, and were tied with Indianapolis and San Diego. Where was Allen, instead of doing what elite defensive ends do?

Allen’s numbers look good right now, but how much of his performance this year is due to the limbo of his contract status? Can he put together three or four consecutive 14-16 sack seasons, as Reggie White (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=1345486) and Bruce Smith used to do back in the day?

We’re not questioning Allen’s heart or desire to play the game. Perhaps he’s simply not that good – he was never the most talented player to begin with. And in that light, one knee injury might drastically reduce Allen’s effectiveness, as it did with Eric Hicks (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3328844) after his 14-sack season.

Just how much is Allen worth? Is it really smart to award him with a long-term deal similar to the one Dwight Freeney ($72 million) signed last offseason?

Perhaps it’s in the best interests of the Chiefs if Peterson slaps the franchise tag on Allen for next season, and perhaps beyond. Reward Allen now with what will surely be a lucrative one-year deal (approximately $10 million), and in the meantime, continue to evaluate him. It would be a shame if the Chiefs repeated the same mistake they made with Larry Johnson (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2980134) a few months ago.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 11:49 AM
JA is a more COMPLETE player than Freeney and besides that, the money being talked about is LESS than Freeney's contract. So you can throw that argument out the window.


I also understand the DUI thing, I really do, but I'm also smart enough to know you can put stipulations in contracts-it happens all the time-so whose the one being naive?l


For the eleventy-billionth time.

The players union will not allow a player to put a clause like that in a contract.

If they would it already would have happened, many times over.

Putting a stipulation that a player not ride motorcycles is considerably different than a stipulation that he pay back a $35M signing bonus if he's busted/suspended again.

Christ, Michael Vick is in ****ing PRISON.

He got to keep his bonus.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 11:52 AM
Since so many people are trashing Allen, I wonder what you all think of the column I wrote a few months ago:

http://kan.scout.com/2/713626.html


I think it's dead-on, and I've echoed those sentiments over the past three days.

He's had one phenomenal season, one pretty good season, and two average/below average seasons. Yet he wants the biggest contract for a defensive player in the history of the league?

No thanks.

thurman merman
04-19-2008, 11:54 AM
First, I'd love to see which games you are considering that Allen won all by himself.

Second, I'm talking about 2007, because YOU'RE talking about 2007. 4 wins.

9/23/07 chiefs 13, vikings 10. allen records 8 tackles, 2 sacks, and a forced fumble. forced fumble occurs at the minnesota 29-yard-line, leading to a chiefs field goal which ended up making the difference in the game.

10/14/07 chiefs 27, bengals 20. allen does not single-handedly win the game as the chiefs offense actually shows up for a moment, but allen does have a monster game with 2.5 sacks and a forced fumble, which would have led to a chiefs touchdown had larry johnson not fumbled at the one-yard-line.

10/21/07 chiefs 12, raiders 10. allen records as many sacks and tackles combined (12) as the chiefs record points.

so, allen played a huge role in three out of their four wins last year alone.

thurman merman
04-19-2008, 11:56 AM
I think it's dead-on, and I've echoed those sentiments over the past three days.

He's had one phenomenal season, one pretty good season, and two average/below average seasons. Yet he wants the biggest contract for a defensive player in the history of the league?

No thanks.


he is 26. how many phenomenal seasons have most great players had by the age of 26?

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 11:56 AM
9/23/07 chiefs 13, vikings 10. allen records 8 tackles, 2 sacks, and a forced fumble. forced fumble occurs at the minnesota 29-yard-line, leading to a chiefs field goal which ended up making the difference in the game.

10/14/07 chiefs 27, bengals 20. allen does not single-handedly win the game as the chiefs offense actually shows up for a moment, but allen does have a monster game with 2.5 sacks and a forced fumble, which would have led to a chiefs touchdown had larry johnson not fumbled at the one-yard-line.

10/21/07 chiefs 12, raiders 10. allen records as many sacks and tackles combined (12) as the chiefs record points.

so, allen played a huge role in three out of their four wins last year alone.

So, he played a huge role, or he single handedly won those games?

Which is it?

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 11:57 AM
he is 26. how many phenomenal seasons have most great players had by the age of 26?


Dwight Freeney had 4/4.

Yet Allen wants as much or more money than Freeney.

thurman merman
04-19-2008, 12:10 PM
So, he played a huge role, or he single handedly won those games?

Which is it?


i really think they could have lost any of those games had allen not been playing. the chiefs could have been 1-15 without him last year.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 12:17 PM
i really think they could have lost any of those games had allen not been playing. the chiefs could have been 1-15 without him last year.

And they could have been 8-8 had he bothered to show up for the Green Bay, Oakland, (Home) Indianapolis and Tennessee games.

What's your point?

thurman merman
04-19-2008, 12:18 PM
And they could have been 8-8 had he bothered to show up for the Green Bay, Oakland, (Home) Indianapolis and Tennessee games.

What's your point?

ok, you're right, he sucks.

let's just bring back vonnie holiday or something.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-19-2008, 12:20 PM
That was a very well written piece, GC.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 12:22 PM
ok, you're right, he sucks.

let's just bring back vonnie holiday or something.

That's it. Give up.

I never said he sucks.

What I did say, and what I've said for the last year or so is that he's not worth Dwight Freeney money, with or without a history of DWI's.

Baby Lee
04-19-2008, 12:33 PM
I don't understand why people keep saying that, like it's Jared Allen's fault that the Chiefs sucked. They won four games because their offensive line sucked and their QBs sucked and their wide receivers sucked and their cornerbacks sucked and their defensive tackles sucked, etc. etc.

It's not like because they sucked one year, Jared Allen will never be a difference-maker. If they keep Allen, and build a defense around him, and actually used some of their ridiculously unused cap money on some offense, the Chiefs could be a contending team within a couple of years.

I just don't understand this widespread logic of "Oh, since the Chiefs only won four games last year, Jared Allen is completely useless to this team."

Bolded is the crux, those who say "even with him we were 4-12" mean, 'we are a LONG way from winning again anyway, who knows how worn out and world weary he'd by the time we're ready to compete again?'

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 12:36 PM
Who is the Colts 3rd DE again?

What were freeney's #s the last two seasons again?

Deberg_1990
04-19-2008, 12:36 PM
And they could have been 8-8 had he bothered to show up for the Green Bay, Oakland, (Home) Indianapolis and Tennessee games.

What's your point?


Sounds like the Chiefs need a whole lot more peices of puzzle than JA. Obviously...

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 12:37 PM
What were freeney's #s the last two seasons again?

Even more reason not to give him a Freeney-like contract.

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 12:37 PM
That's it. Give up.

I never said he sucks.

What I did say, and what I've said for the last year or so is that he's not worth Dwight Freeney money, with or without a history of DWI's.

He is BETTER than Freeney.

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 12:39 PM
Even more reason not to give him a Freeney-like contract.

If you want a top flight player, you WILL pay them as such, or you won't have them.

If I were the Chiefs, I would be trying to lock up DJ NOW, or might be a Viking too.

Count Zarth
04-19-2008, 12:41 PM
If you want a top flight player, you WILL pay them as such, or you won't have them.

If I were the Chiefs, I would be trying to lock up DJ NOW, or might be a Viking too.

They're not very bright, are they?

If he has a Pro Bowl season next year he's going to want to renegotiate. He DID lead the league in tackles for loss this season. Why can't the Chiefs be proactive for once?

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 12:41 PM
He is BETTER than Freeney.

Please tell me you're kidding.

Freeney's lowest sack season is Allen's 2nd highest.

Freeney NEVER had less than 11 sacks in his first four years.

Allen did TWICE. In 2006, Tamba Hali, a ****ing ROOKIE had more sacks than he did.

Freeney forced almost as many fumbles (9) in ONE SEASON as Allen has in his career (10)

I guess you're one of the guys who would trade a 1st/3rd FOR Allen with all of his off the field issues, knowing he wants a $100M+ contract.....

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 12:42 PM
If you want a top flight player, you WILL pay them as such, or you won't have them.

If I were the Chiefs, I would be trying to lock up DJ NOW, or might be a Viking too.

OK.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 12:45 PM
They're not very bright, are they?

If he has a Pro Bowl season next year he's going to want to renegotiate. He DID lead the league in tackles for loss this season. Why can't the Chiefs be proactive for once?

Is he worth an Adalius Thomas or Ray Lewis like contract?

J Diddy
04-19-2008, 12:46 PM
He is BETTER than Freeney.

yep and LJ is better than LT......

through rosy colored homer glasses

J Diddy
04-19-2008, 12:47 PM
Is he worth an Adalius Thomas or Ray Lewis like contract?


Marvcus Patton like contract

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 12:55 PM
Please tell me you're kidding.

Freeney's lowest sack season is Allen's 2nd highest.

Freeney NEVER had less than 11 sacks in his first four years.

Allen did TWICE. In 2006, Tamba Hali, a ****ing ROOKIE had more sacks than he did.

Freeney forced almost as many fumbles (9) in ONE SEASON as Allen has in his career (10)

I guess you're one of the guys who would trade a 1st/3rd FOR Allen with all of his off the field issues, knowing he wants a $100M+ contract.....

Allen is a complete DE. Freeney is a pass rusher that's it.

How many passes does freeney bat down?

How mant tackles in the run game does he make?

That 2006 season your talking about. Allen had 76 tackles, and 7.5 sacks. Freeney had 26! tackles, and 5.5 sacks.

Last season JA played 14 games, and had 15.5. Freeney 9 games 3.5.

JA may not be better than Freeney WAS, but he's sure as hell better than he IS, and he's younger, and the market has gone up since he signed that contract. The difference is that the Colts know that you have to pay your players if you want to keep them.

NO! I would NOT give up a first, and third, AND, 80 mil, but the Chiefs don't have to give up shit, they just have to pay the man.

I can't wait to see the great players we get out of this deal.

Count Zarth
04-19-2008, 12:59 PM
Is he worth an Adalius Thomas or Ray Lewis like contract?

DJ? Not right now.

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 01:01 PM
yep and LJ is better than LT......

through rosy colored homer glasses

Freeney hasn't done shit in a long time. NOT sack the QB, NOT stop the run.
You guys are pulling a Carl, and think that someone should be congradulated for shit they did a long time ago.

The NFL, is a what hve you done for me lately business, and Freeney hasn't done shit.

Right now Jared is twice the DE.

Brock
04-19-2008, 01:04 PM
Jared's worth whatever he can get. And whoever pays him deserves whatever they get, whether it's an MVP performance, or a year suspension because he was too dumb to keep track of what cold medicine he's not supposed to take.

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 01:05 PM
Jared's worth whatever he can get. And whoever pays him deserves whatever they get, whether it's an MVP performance, or a year suspension because he was too dumb to keep track of what cold medicine he's not supposed to take.

Can't argue with that.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 01:06 PM
Allen is a complete DE. Freeney is a pass rusher that's it.

How many passes does freeney bat down?

How mant tackles in the run game does he make?

That 2006 season your talking about. Allen had 76 tackles, and 7.5 sacks. Freeney had 26! tackles, and 5.5 sacks.

Last season JA played 14 games, and had 15.5. Freeney 9 games 3.5.

JA may not be better than Freeney WAS, but he's sure as hell better than he IS, and he's younger, and the market has gone up since he signed that contract. The difference is that the Colts know that you have to pay your players if you want to keep them.

NO! I would NOT give up a first, and third, AND, 80 mil, but the Chiefs don't have to give up shit, they just have to pay the man.

I can't wait to see the great players we get out of this deal.

Feel free to pick and choose which years to use to suit your argument.

Take the first 4 years of Freeney's career, and put them up against Allen's first 4 years.

8 more sacks, 13 more forced fumbles.

THAT is a game changer.

Feel free to hang your hat on his tackle stats - which might be the most subjective stat kept by the league.

Doob02
04-19-2008, 01:07 PM
when you have a player that is one drink away from a year suspension I say see ya later

DenverChief
04-19-2008, 01:10 PM
For the eleventy-billionth time.

The players union will not allow a player to put a clause like that in a contract.

If they would it already would have happened, many times over.

Putting a stipulation that a player not ride motorcycles is considerably different than a stipulation that he pay back a $35M signing bonus if he's busted/suspended again.

Christ, Michael Vick is in ****ing PRISON.

He got to keep his bonus.


QFT

Smed1065
04-19-2008, 01:11 PM
Please tell me you're kidding.

Freeney's lowest sack season is Allen's 2nd highest.

Freeney NEVER had less than 11 sacks in his first four years.

Allen did TWICE. In 2006, Tamba Hali, a ****ing ROOKIE had more sacks than he did.

Freeney forced almost as many fumbles (9) in ONE SEASON as Allen has in his career (10)

I guess you're one of the guys who would trade a 1st/3rd FOR Allen with all of his off the field issues, knowing he wants a $100M+ contract.....

I keep seeing $100 million in your post, do we know this amount?

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 01:13 PM
I keep seeing $100 million in your post, do we know this amount?

That's roughly what Freeney got.

6 years, $72M

$30M guaranteed.

DenverChief
04-19-2008, 01:15 PM
ok, you're right, he sucks.

let's just bring back vonnie holiday or something.

I got it how about a draft pick ! what a novel idea

Smed1065
04-19-2008, 01:17 PM
That's roughly what Freeney got.

6 years, $72M

$30M guaranteed.

Is the $30 million included in the $72 million total?

I thought it was and it was the the least he could make even if they cut him the next year.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 01:20 PM
Is the $30 million included in the $72 million total?

I thought it was and it was the the least he could make even if they cut him the next year.

No.

The $30M is a separate issue.

The $72M is spread out over the 6 years of the contract.

If they were to cut him, they'd take a massive cap hit.

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 01:20 PM
It's funny to see how many turn on their own, because a player wants to get paid. This happens every ****ing year with mutiple teams-I'm surprised so many are taking the FOs side, when the track record of Carl is highly documented. Sorry, but Carl's a prick and he has handled this as unprofessionally as possible.Your misperception is that people are "taking the FO's side". Acknowledging that the trade is all but a foregone conclusion, for a variety of reasons for which both the Chiefs and Allen are responsible, and hoping the franchise can get the best compensation in the interest of the team's future is not "taking the FO's side"; it's facing reality. Because of what transpired last offseason, and what's happened in the year since, Allen is gone. End of story.

If you really want to get deep into it, this situation isn't happening because Allen is a stupid drunk with the maturity of a 5-year old. And it isn't happening because Carl Peterson is an incompetent GM with an ego the size of Antarctica. It's happening because a stupid drunk with the maturity of a 5-year old and an incompetent GM with an ego the size of Antarctica can't come to some mutually-beneficial middle ground. It's a shame, but it is what it is, and it's not likely to come to any good end for KC short of draft picks from another team.

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 01:23 PM
Is the $30 million included in the $72 million total?Yes. Freeney's deal was not a 100-million deal. It was a 72-million deal.

(Either way, $12 million/year? :eek: )

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 01:27 PM
No.

The $30M is a separate issue.

The $72M is spread out over the 6 years of the contract.

If they were to cut him, they'd take a massive cap hit.

Yes. Freeney's deal was not a 100-million deal. It was a 72-million deal.

(Either way, $12 million/year? :eek: )


Upon further review, Keg is correct.

I stand corrected.

Smed1065
04-19-2008, 01:29 PM
Thats what I thought but wanted to make sure.
I was searching to find out but most of it was salary cap info instead of contract info.

Thanks.

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 01:33 PM
Feel free to pick and choose which years to use to suit your argument.

Take the first 4 years of Freeney's career, and put them up against Allen's first 4 years.

8 more sacks, 13 more forced fumbles.

THAT is a game changer.

Feel free to hang your hat on his tackle stats - which might be the most subjective stat kept by the league.

Like I said. That is the past. You claim that I'm picking,and choosing, but your throwing stats in my face that are OLD. You are picking, and choosing THE PAST to support a player in the present. I gave you stats from the last two seasons.

Here, let me make this easy for you.

CAREAR STATS: average PER GAME

JA: Gs 61, Tacks 3.77, Sacks .7, PD .46, FF .22

DF: Gs 88, Tacks 2.26, Sacks .68, PD .11 FF .35

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 01:36 PM
Like I said. That is the past. You claim that I'm picking,and choosing, but your throwing stats in my face that are OLD. You are picking, and choosing THE PAST to support a player in the present. I gave you stats from the last two seasons.

Here, let me make this easy for you.

CAREAR STATS: average PER GAME

JA: Gs 61, Tacks 3.77, Sacks .7, PD .46, FF .22

DF: Gs 88, Tacks 2.26, Sacks .68, PD .11 FF .35

So you're averaging 6 years over 4, one of which a player was injured and didn't play?

Makes sense.

Why do you think Freeney received the contract he did?

His first 4 years. Ironicaly, Allen has played 4 years. Now he wants ridiculous money.

It's an easy comparison.

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 01:38 PM
I think an interesting thing to watch in 2008 will be Tamba Hali versus Jared Allen, statistically speaking. If Hali's healthy, it may well be a better race than most people think, particularly if we end up with Dorsey or Ellis at 5.

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 01:45 PM
So you're averaging 6 years over 4, one of which a players was injured and didn't play?

Makes sense.

Why do you think Freeney received the contract he did?

His first 4 years. Ironicaly, Allen has played 4 years. Now he wants ridiculous money.

It's an easy comparison.

Wrong. I'm comparing GAMES PLAYED.

Freeney got what he deserved, as one of the best DEs in the league, and so will Allen, just not from the Chiefs.

The Vikes, are giving up the picks, AND paying him, and they're not the only team willing to do it, because jared is a top tier player.

The teams trying to get him, have won a playoff game in the last 14 yrs.

At least Jared will get that chance before he's 30. Too bad for Tony though. I'm sure he loves seeing the Chiefs trade off their best player having never won a playoff game.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 01:47 PM
Wrong. I'm comparing GAMES PLAYED.

Freeney got what he deserved, as one of the best DEs in the league, and so will Allen, just not from the Chiefs.

The Vikes, are giving up the picks, AND paying him, and they're not the only team willing to do it, because jared is a top tier player.

The teams trying to get him, have won a playoff game in the last 14 yrs.

At least Jared will get that chance before he's 30. Too bad for Tony though. I'm sure he loves seeing the Chiefs trade off their best player having never won a playoff game.


Hey, to each their own.

You see an elite DE.

I see a guy who is a year removed from not even being the sack leader on his OWN TEAM.

AND has a huge black cloud hanging over his head in the form of THREE DWI'S.

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 01:53 PM
Hey, to each their own.

You see an elite DE.

I see a guy who is a year removed from not even being the sack leader on his OWN TEAM.

AND has a huge black cloud hanging over his head in the form of THREE DWI'S.

I see the risk, and agree with you completely. I'm just comparing two players on the field.

I'm warming up to this deal. I'm just worried we'll **** up the picks.

I would rather have 3 solid starters than one stud. football is the ultimte TEAM sport, but these guys give me little faith that they can spot them.

I would hate to lose JA for nothing.

Mecca
04-19-2008, 01:54 PM
I see the risk, and agree with you completely. I'm just comparing two players on the field.

I'm warming up to this deal. I'm just worried we'll **** up the picks.

I would rather have 3 solid starters players than one stud. football is the ultimte TEAM sport, but these guys give me little faith that they can spot them.

I would hate to lose JA for nothing.

And I'd hate to see our highest paid player get suspended and turn the organization into a joke to be made and the team turn into a PSA.

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 02:01 PM
And I'd hate to see our highest paid player get suspended and turn the organization into a joke to be made and the team turn into a PSA.

Very valid point. He definately still acts immature.

I'm just bitter. Carl, and company drive me insane.
They've been here so long, and ****ed up so hard, that it's hard to not question anything they do. Especially something this big.

J Diddy
04-19-2008, 02:02 PM
And I'd hate to see our highest paid player get suspended and turn the organization into a joke to be made and the team turn into a PSA.


"turn"

that's long since past

J Diddy
04-19-2008, 02:04 PM
Freeney hasn't done shit in a long time. NOT sack the QB, NOT stop the run.
You guys are pulling a Carl, and think that someone should be congradulated for shit they did a long time ago.

The NFL, is a what hve you done for me lately business, and Freeney hasn't done shit.

Right now Jared is twice the DE.

I think you're giving him credit for 1 good season

Hicks had 1 good season and we paid him most of his career for it

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 02:14 PM
I think you're giving him credit for 1 good season

Hicks had 1 good season and we paid him most of his career for it

Why do people always throw these names around. You know there's always an example that goes the other way. N. Smith never had more than 9 sacks his first 4 seasons.

Ja may get paid, and never be the same, and he might be an annual pro bowler. That's the risk you take with every signing.

Jared has been rising for quite some time.

J Diddy
04-19-2008, 02:25 PM
Why do people always throw these names around. You know there's always an example that goes the other way. N. Smith never had more than 9 sacks his first 4 seasons.

Ja may get paid, and never be the same, and he might be an annual pro bowler. That's the risk you take with every signing.

Jared has been rising for quite some time.


because his last season looks pretty damned close to hicks 2000 season

Chiefmanwillcatch
04-19-2008, 02:31 PM
I think you're giving him credit for 1 good season

Hicks had 1 good season and we paid him most of his career for it


QFT.

Jared Allen wants his big contract after he put up these big numbers.

Can he do it again?

Did the numbers he put up translate to wins? Did those sacks come against good teams?

We will get the answers later after the trade. Herm may not like JA's run defense. Who knows.

When you ask for Freeney money then you are going to be scrutinized. Freeney is consistent and is like Derrick Thomas.

J Diddy
04-19-2008, 02:34 PM
QFT.

Jared Allen wants his big contract after he put up these big numbers.

Can he do it again?

Do the numbers he put up translate to wins? Did those sacks come against good teams?

We will get the answers later after the trade. Herm may not like JA's run defense. Who knows.

The thing I didn't like about JA is what someone on here already posted. He disappears in the second half of games, I wonder how many of those sacks came in the first quarter, I would bet more than half.

Mecca
04-19-2008, 02:36 PM
Allen is an absolute bunch player, from half to half from game to game, his stats at the end of the season look awesome but then you realize he wasn't consistent for every game.

He was invisible during that game in Denver when we got killed and their LT isn't even that great.

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 02:36 PM
The thing I didn't like about JA is what someone on here already posted. He disappears in the second half of games, I wonder how many of those sacks came in the first quarter, I would bet more than half.

Someone posted the breakdown several months ago.

IIRC, less than 3 of his sacks came in the 2nd half of games.

The number sticking in my head is 1.5, but I bumped it to 3 to be fair.

thurman merman
04-19-2008, 03:35 PM
Feel free to pick and choose which years to use to suit your argument.

Take the first 4 years of Freeney's career.

alright, you too.

J Diddy
04-19-2008, 03:42 PM
Someone posted the breakdown several months ago.

IIRC, less than 3 of his sacks came in the 2nd half of games.

The number sticking in my head is 1.5, but I bumped it to 3 to be fair.


I remember a quote being directed at donnie edwards when he was here the first time. Something along the lines that "great players make plays at the end of the game" not the beginning