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nomad
04-19-2008, 03:48 PM
Trading your best player doesn't make sense unless:

1). The team is hopelessly beyond any chance to compete for a Super Bowl.

2). Management is dedicated to a full rebuild.

3). Management team in place to orchestrate the rebuild is not the same responsible for #1.

Make sense?

stlchiefs
04-19-2008, 03:48 PM
Is this question about DaFace or Carl?

jspchief
04-19-2008, 03:51 PM
I actually think Herm isn't a bad guy to have in place for a rebuild. He seems to do solid drafting and isn't afraid to give young guys a chance. And I do think Carl gives his coaches a lot of say in the draft. You can see the trends with the different coaches.

That being said, IMO you don't rebuild a team completely from scratch. You have to know which youngs guys to sign for a second contract, and which FAs to get to fill holes, and that's where I question what the FO is capable of.

thurman merman
04-19-2008, 04:24 PM
a team that is willing to trade a 26-year-old superstar has just lost any trust i ever had in them.

DenverChief
04-19-2008, 04:25 PM
a team that is willing to trade a 26-year-old superstar has just lost any trust i ever had in them.

he will be 30 before we ever contend again

Skip Towne
04-19-2008, 04:27 PM
NO!!

Lonewolf Ed
04-19-2008, 04:35 PM
No, no, no, nein, no, nyet, nej, nay!

Rain Man
04-19-2008, 04:38 PM
In the first years of Carl's regime, he won the adoration of Chiefs fans by pulling the team out of the abyss, with the help of a good coach and a great young pass rusher. There is a woeful symmetry that he is now supporting a horrid coach and jettisoning a great young pass rusher.

thurman merman
04-19-2008, 04:40 PM
he will be 30 before we ever contend again

again, why does that matter?

what are we, the 2004 royals?

a team will never get good if they trade their best players. it's that simple.

DenverChief
04-19-2008, 04:46 PM
again, why does that matter?


he will be on the downside of his career @ 30...think Neil Smith at the end of his career

thurman merman
04-19-2008, 04:49 PM
he will be on the downside of his career @ 30...think Neil Smith at the end of his career

that's not my point.

my point is, if they keep letting players go because they are not willing to pay them, jared allen is going to be a hell of a lot older than 30 by the time the chiefs can contend again. he'll be more like 50, or 80, or dead.

Bearcat
04-19-2008, 04:50 PM
Trading your best player doesn't make sense unless:

1). The team is hopelessly beyond any chance to compete for a Super Bowl.

2). Management is dedicated to a full rebuild.

3). Management team in place to orchestrate the rebuild is not the same responsible for #1.

Make sense?

#1 only makes sense when the best player is past their prime. #2 only makes sense when you're the Kansas City Royals and can't afford to keep your best players, and also only if your best player isn't young enough to be around when the rebuild is complete.

The debate of money and DUIs are both good reasons for Carl to trade him. Herm shouldn't have one good reason, and should be screaming to Carl to do everything possible to keep him.

No, I don't trust management to rebuild this team, but after far too many years of mediocrity, starting over is the only logical thing to do. I'd just rather it be with a head coach coaching the team and not a defensive coordinator.

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 04:51 PM
If management can't possibly rebuild, then what possible difference can keeping or trading Jared Allen make? We're screwed either way.

eazyb81
04-19-2008, 04:52 PM
that's not my point.

my point is, if they keep letting players go because they are not willing to pay them, jared allen is going to be a hell of a lot older than 30 by the time the chiefs can contend again. he'll be more like 50, or 80, or dead.

Then explain why the Patriots have built a dynasty despite routinely dumping elite players when they became too expensive.

It's just like the market - buy low and sell high. Allen is a great player right now but his value will never be higher, plus his contract demands are not worth the risk in him serving a long suspension.

DenverChief
04-19-2008, 04:52 PM
that's not my point.

my point is, if they keep letting players go because they are not willing to pay them, jared allen is going to be a hell of a lot older than 30 by the time the chiefs can contend again. he'll be more like 50, or 80, or dead.

that is my point though their best player isn't going to help them contend in the next 3-4 years and by them he won't be their best player anymore...so sell him while you can...get some good young guys in who can help this team win in 3-4 years and be in their prime

OnTheWarpath58
04-19-2008, 04:56 PM
Then explain why the Patriots have built a dynasty despite routinely dumping elite players when they became too expensive.

It's just like the market - buy low and sell high. Allen is a great player right now but his value will never be higher, plus his contract demands are not worth the risk in him serving a long suspension.

Yep. Same with the Colts.

Marshall Faulk? Traded. Replaced in the draft by Edgerrin James, who the Colts let WALK and replace him in the draft with Joe Addai.

Yep, the Chiefs are the only team in the league who gets rid of young "elite" players....

J Diddy
04-19-2008, 04:57 PM
that is my point though their best player isn't going to help them contend in the next 3-4 years and by them he won't be their best player anymore...so sell him while you can...get some good young guys in who can help this team win in 3-4 years and be in their prime


KInda my point

If we pay a stud because he's in his prime when they know we can't win--its because they are trying to fill seats

which is what 90% of people bitch about concerning carl

Bearcat
04-19-2008, 05:00 PM
So now we're trusting this management and coaching group to do what the Patriots and Colts have done?


Good luck with that. LMAO

Bearcat
04-19-2008, 05:05 PM
KInda my point

If we pay a stud because he's in his prime when they know we can't win--its because they are trying to fill seats

which is what 90% of people bitch about concerning carl

Maybe... but I do think the opposite is happening. Carl knows the fans are aware that we're going to suck next year, and the fan frustration was obvious when you could hear "Go Pack Go" and see a huge number of Broncos fans in back-to-back home games last year; so it is in his best interest to not pay Jared Allen and take his chances with a draft choice.

Obviously, the fans who didn't renew their season tickets this year are at fault for this one. :p

CoMoChief
04-19-2008, 05:37 PM
If management can't possibly rebuild, then what possible difference can keeping or trading Jared Allen make? We're screwed either way.

With this logic then why have any good players on this team.

**** lets trade away Derrick Johnson too. Because by the time we are competing for a SB, DJ will be 55 years old. It doesn't make sense to keep him. Trade him!!!!!!

CoMoChief
04-19-2008, 05:39 PM
Yep. Same with the Colts.

Marshall Faulk? Traded. Replaced in the draft by Edgerrin James, who the Colts let WALK and replace him in the draft with Joe Addai.

Yep, the Chiefs are the only team in the league who gets rid of young "elite" players....

It's easier to replace a RB than it is a DE.

Mecca
04-19-2008, 05:45 PM
Some of you overlook the #1 issue here.

Do you think it is smart business to make a guy your franchise, the face of your team, more than just a player, one of the highest paid guys in the league obviously the highest paid on the team......when he has the mentality of a child?

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 05:49 PM
Yep. Same with the Colts.

Marshall Faulk? Traded. Replaced in the draft by Edgerrin James, who the Colts let WALK and replace him in the draft with Joe Addai.

Yep, the Chiefs are the only team in the league who gets rid of young "elite" players....

If we we're following this model we would have taded LJ, and signed JA.

You're talking about RBs. Give me an example of a team dumping a 11 sack avg. DE...............at 26.

banyon
04-19-2008, 06:03 PM
Contract-wise how much more guaranteed cap money would we pay Chris Long than what we'd pay JA if he were available at #5?

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 06:06 PM
Contract-wise how much more guaranteed cap money would we pay Chris Long than what we'd pay JA if he were available at #5?

Good question. It's gonna be a lot.

banyon
04-19-2008, 06:07 PM
Good question. It's gonna be a lot.

I don't know about that. I was listening to Floyd Reese on ESPN Radio today (former Titans GM) and he didn't think so, but he was just shooting from the hip.

beach tribe
04-19-2008, 07:10 PM
I don't know about that. I was listening to Floyd Reese on ESPN Radio today (former Titans GM) and he didn't think so, but he was just shooting from the hip.

It's gonna be more than this.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2959237

DaneMcCloud
04-19-2008, 07:20 PM
Yep. Same with the Colts.

Marshall Faulk? Traded. Replaced in the draft by Edgerrin James, who the Colts let WALK and replace him in the draft with Joe Addai.

Yep, the Chiefs are the only team in the league who gets rid of young "elite" players....

People who can't understand this post should have their posting rights revoked.

IF Jared Allen had NEVER received a DUI (let alone, TWO), I'd be fairly upset at the latest developments.

But he's ONE F*CKING NIGHT OF DRINKING away from a ONE-YEAR BAN. Then, he'd have to apply for reinstatement.

It would be foolish for the Chiefs to sign him to a large, long term contract.

FOOLISH.

Der Flöprer
04-19-2008, 07:23 PM
I actually think Herm isn't a bad guy to have in place for a rebuild. He seems to do solid drafting and isn't afraid to give young guys a chance. And I do think Carl gives his coaches a lot of say in the draft. You can see the trends with the different coaches.

That being said, IMO you don't rebuild a team completely from scratch. You have to know which youngs guys to sign for a second contract, and which FAs to get to fill holes, and that's where I question what the FO is capable of.

The only reason a team should need a full rebuild in todays NFL is because they have a long history of bad drafting. How you're going to let the same guy rebuild what he already ****ed up is what's beyond me.

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 07:26 PM
With this logic then why have any good players on this team.

**** lets trade away Derrick Johnson too. Because by the time we are competing for a SB, DJ will be 55 years old. It doesn't make sense to keep him. Trade him!!!!!!I must have missed the part where DJ had had 4 dui's, was facing a year's suspension from the legue if he's ever caught again, had opened a bar of all things despite all this, and was refusing to sign a long-term contract with the Chiefs because they had the temerity to say he was a 'risk" when he was about to be suspended for being a dumbass.

Other than that, I can see the comparison.

Der Flöprer
04-19-2008, 07:27 PM
Some of you overlook the #1 issue here.

Do you think it is smart business to make a guy your franchise, the face of your team, more than just a player, one of the highest paid guys in the league obviously the highest paid on the team......when he has the mentality of a child?

No one responded to this yet. Why? Because the dumb ****er wore a tuxedo shirt to an awards ceremony. If that isn't the mentality of a child, what is? Good point Mecca.

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 07:31 PM
No one responded to this yet. Why? Because the dumb ****er wore a tuxedo shirt to an awards ceremony. If that isn't the mentality of a child, what is? Good point Mecca.That's not a bad thing, that just means he's cool. You stuffed-shirt.

Skip Towne
04-19-2008, 07:35 PM
No one responded to this yet. Why? Because the dumb ****er wore a tuxedo shirt to an awards ceremony. If that isn't the mentality of a child, what is? Good point Mecca.

Sounds like something John Riggins might do.

Reerun_KC
04-19-2008, 08:30 PM
Like many Chiefs fans, Just biding my time until Carl and Clown Edwards are gone....

Until then, Who gives a shit, we are going to suck with a career loser as a coach and a GM with an ego bigger than Texas...

blueballs
04-19-2008, 08:35 PM
Herm can't game day coach but there are worse coachs to rebuild with
he can lean on Dungy and others from his TB days
being a scout is a plus

Rausch
04-19-2008, 08:45 PM
I think you get 3 and out.

So that means I believe that the owner is willing to hire the people necessary to finish after the 4 year contracts are up that I hope he refuses to renew.

And I'd like to think he's able to cut a bait that isn't working but it's clearly too early to tell. So I'll vote yes while being firmly on the fence...

el borracho
04-19-2008, 09:20 PM
If management can't possibly rebuild, then what possible difference can keeping or trading Jared Allen make? We're screwed either way.

Allen can potentially play for another 7 seasons; Carl and Herm should (hopefully) be fired by the end of this season.

Wilson
04-19-2008, 09:27 PM
Do I trust the GM who couldn't produce 1 Super Bowl in TWO DECACES and hasn't won a playoff game in 15 years to somehow sprout a flower out his ass and all of a sudden get a clue?

CARL PETERSON IS A LOSER!!!!

How do you even defend him at this point?

I'm gonna have to say no.

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 09:28 PM
Allen can potentially play for another 7 seasons; Carl and Herm should (hopefully) be fired by the end of this season.I don't want Carl and Herm fired by the end of this season.

Why? you ask.

Because I want this draft to be a success, and I want to see improvement from the team during the season. I don't want to see them draft busts and I don't want to see the team tank just so management can get boxed, to steal a BSG term. I don't want to see another 3-4 year rebuild start in 2009 with a new front office and a new coaching staff. I want the last 3 years to come to some kind of fruition and I want to see the team develop into a contender by next year, built around the 2006-2008 drafts.

I'm not Carl's biggest fan by any stretch (I'm not a fan at all), but I want to see the guy succeed, because he's the GM whether I like it or not, and I want to see the team rebuilt in exactly the way they appear to be trying to do it.

If I didn't think there was even a remote chance they could succeed, I wouldn't waste my time by paying attention.

Wilson
04-19-2008, 09:37 PM
I don't want Carl and Herm fired by the end of this season.

Why? you ask.

Because I want this draft to be a success, and I want to see improvement from the team during the season. I don't want to see them draft busts and I don't want to see the team tank just so management can get boxed, to steal a BSG term. I don't want to see another 3-4 year rebuild start in 2009 with a new front office and a new coaching staff. I want the last 3 years to come to some kind of fruition and I want to see the team develop into a contender by next year, built around the 2006-2008 drafts.

I'm not Carl's biggest fan by any stretch (I'm not a fan at all), but I want to see the guy succeed, because he's the GM whether I like it or not, and I want to see the team rebuilt in exactly the way they appear to be trying to do it.

If I didn't think there was even a remote chance they could succeed, I wouldn't waste my time by paying attention.

Help me out here, what makes you think he can pull this off after the sample pool you have to judge by?

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 09:39 PM
Help me out here, what makes you think he can pull this off after the sample pool you have to judge by?If you don't think the Chiefs can possibly rebuild, then why on earth pay any attention to the draft or the 2008 season?

That's a serious question. If there's zero hope of even one tiny good thing in 2008, and the only hope anybody has to look forward to is a housecleaning, then why give a shit at all until 2009?

ChiefsCountry
04-19-2008, 09:41 PM
Basically I want Herm and Carl to get some of the pieces like Baird did with the Royals and then get replaced by a better GM and coach to take the next step.

Wilson
04-19-2008, 09:42 PM
If you don't think the Chiefs can possibly rebuild, then why on earth pay any attention to the draft or the 2008 season?

That's a serious question. If there's zero hope of even one tiny good thing in 2008, and the only hope anybody has to look forward to is a housecleaning, then why give a shit at all until 2009?

Because I'd like to see Carl gone and someone who isn't from the good ol boy network given a chance.

You didn't answer the question by the way,

el borracho
04-19-2008, 09:43 PM
Ok, I can understand that and even agree with it in principle but I have no real faith in it happening. I simultaneously (and maybe even counter-intuitively) hope for both to happen- a successful draft and the firing of Carl and Herm. Of course, it isn't often I get exactly what I want where the Chiefs are concerned.

el borracho
04-19-2008, 09:45 PM
If you don't think the Chiefs can possibly rebuild, then why on earth pay any attention to the draft or the 2008 season?

That's a serious question. If there's zero hope of even one tiny good thing in 2008, and the only hope anybody has to look forward to is a housecleaning, then why give a shit at all until 2009?

I'm sick in the head.

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 09:47 PM
Because I'd like to see change. You didn't answer the question by the way,You didn't answer my question either. Why pay any attention at all, now and for the rest of 2008? It's a waste of your time.

As for my answer to yours, it's simple: I think anything's possible. Stranger things have happened in sports.

And I never said I thought he would do it. I don't know if he can do it or not. I'm not a magic eight ball. I only said that I hope he does, because I'd rather watch the team get better than sit throught another year when they don't, even if that could get a guy I don't like fired. (and make no mistake, I don't like Carl a bit)

Wilson
04-19-2008, 09:56 PM
I thought I did answer your question but I'll enunciate; Carl is a a proven loser and I know there are people better than him who are capable of winning championships who can replace him.

That loser doesn't represent the team to me nearly as much as the players which is what manages to keep me interested.

Thanks for your feedback.

keg in kc
04-19-2008, 10:03 PM
So basically, you're saying you'd rather see the Chiefs lose to force Carl out than to see them win and risk him staying.

Yes, it's clearly evident that the players are more relevant to you than he is.

Wilson
04-19-2008, 10:11 PM
So basically, you're saying you'd rather see the Chiefs lose to force Carl out than to see them win and risk him staying.

Yes, it's clearly evident that the players are more relevant to you than he is.

If it puts things in perspective I think you're equally being a hypocrite for wanting to stay the course that's has led to nothing but failure for TWENTY YEARS!!!!

That's the same line of though of why the Chiefs are where they are at in my opinion.

RedThat
04-19-2008, 10:23 PM
I think the Chiefs are getting better at drafting. Honestly.

Do I trust Carl rebuilding? Not really because he has a bad history of bombing drafts.

However, Herm gives me the slightest glim of hope? I think he is decent in terms of talent evaluation. My feelings are mixed towards this. I don't like Carl when it comes to evaluation, but I kinda like Herm in this situation. I guess it boils down to who has the final say in terms of selection? And I hope its not Carl. Rather be it Herm.

I think it took the Chiefs time to understand how its done. Through the draft. I love that idea to rebuild, our previous coaches didn't go in that direction. I am happy with the fact that Clark spoke out and realized he wants the "quarterback". If you're going to rebuild, that is the way to go. Question is, can Matt Ryan do it? Is he the type of quarterback that you can build your team around, and hopefully take your team to the Superbowl?

I really like the fact that the Chiefs are mottoing teams like the Pittsburgh Steelers. Do it throught he draft, and sign guys for bargains who are looking to make names for themselves. Instead of signing guys to huge contracts and not play out to their maximum potential.

They have the right idea, and all that needs to happen is for them to draft well. That simple. I think they can do it.

RedThat
04-19-2008, 10:27 PM
Some of you overlook the #1 issue here.

Do you think it is smart business to make a guy your franchise, the face of your team, more than just a player, one of the highest paid guys in the league obviously the highest paid on the team......when he has the mentality of a child?

Heh. Funny you mentioned that, I was thinking the same thing. As much as I love him as a player, his character has always been in question. He definately doesn't have the character makeup to be a perinniel franchise player. I think its actually smart business on the Chiefs part to franchise him, trade him, and possibly get something for him?

nomad
04-19-2008, 10:27 PM
Simple question for everyone...

Why are the Chiefs rebuilding this year?

buddha
04-19-2008, 11:02 PM
It all depends what they can get for Allen. Nobody thought the Herschel Walker trade turned out bad for Dallas, did they? I certainly hope Minnie, T-Bay and the other suitors hold Jared in the same god-like status as many of you.

buddha
04-19-2008, 11:06 PM
I must have missed the part where DJ had had 4 dui's, was facing a year's suspension from the legue if he's ever caught again, had opened a bar of all things despite all this, and was refusing to sign a long-term contract with the Chiefs because they had the temerity to say he was a 'risk" when he was about to be suspended for being a dumbass.

Other than that, I can see the comparison.

Yeah, but Jared promised NOT to drink again...ROFL Our "BEST" player is one more bender away from a major league suspension. Guys with drinking problem, always have that problem...it's just waiting in the background waiting for the next moment of weakness.