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View Full Version : Int'l Issues If Israel is SPYING on us, why are we spending so much to defend them?


jAZ
04-22-2008, 10:38 AM
MSNBC is reporting on another Israeli spy who sold military secrets to Israel including nuclear and secrets on the Patriot weapons systems.

I can't find a link yet, but this prompts a question... why is our ally stealing our military secrets from us? Why are they spying on us?

And in turn, should be really consider them an ally if they are spying on us when we are pouring billions of dollars into defending them?

And maybe more pointedly, it begs the question, is the "special relationship" with Israel that pols talk about, more about a way to sell to the American public our investment in defending American corporate investment in oil as an energy source and our access to ME oil.

irishjayhawk
04-22-2008, 10:39 AM
I won't make my "neo-isolationist" statement. :rolleyes:

Radar Chief
04-22-2008, 11:07 AM
Why would they care about the Patriot? They bought a few, maybe they need the TM’s (Technical Manuals) for maintenance or something. :shrug: Otherwise they’ve developed a missile system that out performs the Patriot, particularly where taking out inbound missiles is concerned.

Otter
04-22-2008, 11:12 AM
"MSNBC is reporting on another Israeli spy who sold military secrets to Israel"

You lost me here

ClevelandBronco
04-22-2008, 01:21 PM
People who use the term "begs the question" should look up its real meaning before they spread its misuse.

"Prompts a question" is a far better phrase for what you mean to say. Good first choice, jAZ.

BucEyedPea
04-22-2008, 01:26 PM
MSNBC is reporting on another Israeli spy who sold military secrets to Israel including nuclear and secrets on the Patriot weapons systems.

Well, there was another case on this post 9/11 as well of spying by AIPAC. I haven't kept up with what happened. I think it was on Iraq. Libertarian and Paleo-Con press reported on it but not the MSM? We are their staunchest ally, so it's definitely odd that this more of this.

Amnorix
04-22-2008, 01:30 PM
"MSNBC is reporting on another Israeli spy who sold military secrets to Israel"

You lost me here


? Why so, or are do you not know about the Pollard case? If so, look up "Jonathan Pollard" on Google or Wiki or whatever.

bango
04-23-2008, 11:12 PM
Israel is just like every other country on the planet, they are looking out for their own interests. The question is if this is a threat to us our not.

Logical
04-24-2008, 12:39 AM
Ah, we spy on them as well.

tit for tat what goes around comes around

Saggysack
04-24-2008, 03:01 AM
Why would they care about the Patriot? They bought a few, maybe they need the TM’s (Technical Manuals) for maintenance or something. :shrug: Otherwise they’ve developed a missile system that out performs the Patriot, particularly where taking out inbound missiles is concerned.

How do you feel about Israel using money we gave them to develop technology for the defense of their nation, which they then use that same technology to help China build it's newest fighter, the J-10?

Radar Chief
04-24-2008, 07:44 AM
How do you feel about Israel using money we gave them to develop technology for the defense of their nation,

I’m fine with this part.

which they then use that same technology to help China build it's newest fighter, the J-10?

I don’t know. On the surface it sounds pretty shitty, but I don’t know the details. Wouldn’t exactly surprise me to learn that we’ve helped their development of various weapons systems also.
Well, maybe not “us” but the Clintons. ;)

Saggysack
04-24-2008, 08:50 AM
I’m fine with this part.



I don’t know. On the surface it sounds pretty shitty, but I don’t know the details. Wouldn’t exactly surprise me to learn that we’ve helped their development of various weapons systems also.
Well, maybe not “us” but the Clintons. ;)

I agree with you. Let me add to it though. Let's add Reagan and GrampaBush in there as well. All in the name of money...

Jenson71
04-24-2008, 01:58 PM
Well-established and energetic lobby efforts

jAZ
04-26-2008, 09:04 AM
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/977946.html

Last update - 09:18 25/04/2008


Another kiss of death

By M.J. Rosenberg

Tags: nuclear espionage

For American Jews like me, for whom Israel is central in their lives, this week's story about an alleged spy who worked for Israel in the U.S. two decades ago is another kiss of death. That is because more ugly headlines about Israel - worst of all about an American spying for it - only contribute to the indifference to the Jewish state that seems to be growing every day.

I did a quick survey of some friends to find out how much discussion of Israel took place at their seder tables this year. Answer: almost none. All the talk was about the Obama/Clinton/ McCain race and sports. And these are Israel-centered people. The adults have all been to Israel multiple times, while the kids have gone there on family trips or with youth groups.

In doing my quick survey about seder conversations, I asked two of my "respondents" why people don't talk about Israel the way they once did. One said: "Because Israel is too controversial these days, and so families are split between hawks and doves, like during Vietnam. Who needs yelling at the Passover table?" The other explained that, "at seder you want to talk about pleasant things."
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Israel is just not what it once was for American Jews. The state's imminent 60th anniversary has aroused hardly any interest here. Yes, the usual crowd is excited. Mostly older, heavily Orthodox, they are the folks who continue to give the campaign dollars linked to "support for Israel." They still march in the "Salute to Israel" parades. Their kids often fight anti-Israel propaganda on campus. But their circle is not widening.

In fact, the base is growing ever smaller. Israel no longer is a source of happiness for most U.S. Jews (especially the kids). And in America, if something doesn't make you feel good, forget about it. The last time Israel made most of us feel good was when Yitzhak Rabin was alive. It's not just the peace process that was killed together with Rabin. So was enthusiasm about Israel.

And now there is this spy case. It doesn't look like much. The alleged spy is now 84 and the deeds he is said to have committed took place 25 years ago. Unfortunately, though, it is not a stand-alone case. The same Israeli who was "running" Jonathan Pollard was supposedly running this guy. That means the Pollard case will be in the news again and that is not good.

It is hard to overestimate how much damage Pollard did to the American Jewish community. Young American Jews who want to work in any security-related government agency know that there is a strong possibility they won't get the job if they are viewed as having too much "Israel" on their resumes. When I was appointed to a U.S. State Department position by President Clinton in 1995, I had to spend hours with the FBI explaining every trip I ever made to Israel. I got the security clearance and the job. But I know people who did not land a position at the CIA or the Pentagon, despite sterling qualifications, and believe the reason was the post-Pollard distrust of American Jews with strong connections to Israel.

This case could add further obstacles. This feeling is compounded by the sense that we still haven't wiped off the more recent stain left by the neocons. Many people here, wrongly, believe that the United States went into Iraq because of Israel. It's not true. But it does not help American Jews when the loudest advocates for the war were people known to have close affiliations to right-wingers in Israel.

Nor do these neocons seem to care that when they are simultaneously defending Israel and urging America to go to war in Iraq (or Iran), they leave the impression that their allegiances are confused, at best. (In fact, Jews, more than any other ethnic group other than African Americans, opposed the war.)

Nor do Jewish congressmen help when they take to the airwaves to defend every action of Israel's government while simultaneously criticizing American policies. (The same congressmen who excoriate the U.S. administration for killing noncombatant kids in Iraq seal their lips when it comes to dead Palestinian kids in Gaza.)

It's not good. You start with a situation in which genuine ardor for Israel has been diminishing year after year. Add to it the association of Israel with defenders of a war most Americans oppose. Add to that the upcoming trial of two Jewish AIPAC employees accused of passing classified information to Israel. And then, out of the blue, Act II of the Pollard case explodes in the media.

None of this will immediately damage American Jews or, probably, even Israel. But, in the long run, who knows? One thing is certain. My generation, Jews like me who became ardently pro-Israel in 1967 and remain involved with Israel in good times and bad, are increasingly out-of-step with the Jewish population at large.

In my opinion, this alienation is only increased by pro-Israel organizations and community leaders so consumed with promoting the Israel "line" that they have forgotten about Israel, the place. They seem to prefer going after Jimmy Carter and the "anti- Israel" authors Walt-Mearsheimer than convincing Americans that, no matter what they think of the occupation, Israel itself is a dynamic, diverse and joyous country. They seem unable to grasp that invoking the Holocaust at every opportunity, and publicly worrying that Israel is about to be destroyed by the crazed mullahs in Iran, is just about the worst possible way to encourage American Jews to take pride in the Jewish state. Worst of all, they use Israel as a bludgeon against real or imagined enemies - something that may be good for organizational fundraising, but which is ultimately terrible for Israel.

All by itself, the latest wrinkle in the Pollard story wouldn't matter. But combined with the seemingly endless Israeli- Palestinian conflict and the inept hasbara (information) efforts of Israel's defenders, it almost surely will. The long honeymoon between Israel and American Jews could be ending.

M.J. Rosenberg is the director of policy analysis for the Israel Policy Forum in Washington, D.C.

chagrin
04-26-2008, 09:41 AM
why is our ally stealing our military secrets from us? Why are they spying on us?
A


Surely you are not this naive...do you even understand what having a foreign policy means? I think it prompts the question, how are you allowed to procreate?

BucEyedPea
04-26-2008, 11:17 AM
Hmmm....I don't if this is the same case but per anti-war.com a recent spy case was one for preventing a war with Iran. Israel has it's opponents, its hawks and doves, just like we do. If this is the case, I condone it because it prevents a destructive act and promotes the greater good imo.

jAZ
04-26-2008, 11:27 AM
Surely you are not this naive...do you even understand what having a foreign policy means? I think it prompts the question, how are you allowed to procreate?

Why are we spending so much to defend them?