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View Full Version : Chiefs Ryan or Croyle... That has to be the key to this rebuild.


Coogs
04-23-2008, 08:51 AM
We can argue 'til the cows come home on how these picks can be spent on players. And it is a lot of fun to do just that. But the essential question that needs to be answered prior to the draft up at Arrowhead is the QB question. All other positions on this team are secondary to that decision.

It's going to be interesting Saturday:toast:!

markk
04-23-2008, 08:52 AM
its either croyle, or someone we pick up saturday. might not be ryan

eazyb81
04-23-2008, 08:54 AM
Yeah, I agree. I feel we need to come out of this draft with an elite QB, whether it's Ryan, Brohm, or a trade for someone like Quinn. If we're truly rebuilding then we need to have a young, premier player at the most important position and give him time to grow.

Coogs
04-23-2008, 08:54 AM
its either croyle, or someone we pick up saturday. might not be ryan

That is true. But the first question will have to be Ryan or Croyle since Ryan is going to be the 1st QB to come off the board.

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 08:54 AM
More than likely Ryan is gone before we pick.


The Chiefs will more than likely select a QB anywhere from 2-4. Probably with one of the extra 3rds.

They almost are forced to draft another Qb because they know Croyle cant stay healthy.

Coogs
04-23-2008, 08:57 AM
More than likely Ryan is gone before we pick.


The Chiefs will more than likely select a QB anywhere from 2-4. Probably with one of the extra 3rds.

They almost are forced to draft another Qb because they know Croyle cant stay healthy.

If the Chiefs think Rayn is the answer, we could always trade up a couple of spots to get him. Herm has traded up before with the Jets to get a player. It is a major question the Chiefs have to adress. The biggest question of the weekend.

Tuckdaddy
04-23-2008, 09:07 AM
Why the hell is Ryan the best in the draft? Brohm ran a top flight offense for years. He threw for tons of yards leading the nation I think twice. That kid is not a one year wonder like Ryan. Don't get me started on Falco. WTF?

PhillyChiefFan
04-23-2008, 09:09 AM
Give Croyle a chance this year...build around him and see if he develops and gains confidence. There are a lot of good QB's in next years draft, more than likely we will have a top 10 pick again next year.

We can wait on a QB and not draft an average one (and wasting a pick this year).
Tebow, Harrell, McCoy, Painter, Stafford, Daniel, Boeckman, and Harper are all eligible next year. Draft a line, solidify the defense, and create a great environment for a QBotF to step in and lead an offense if necessary next year with more options than Brohm and Ryan.

HMc
04-23-2008, 09:10 AM
9 of the last 10 drafts have had at least one QB selected in the first 3 picks, he's not likely to be there at 5.

1997 was a thin year, the first QB to go was Jim Druckenmiller at 26.

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 09:12 AM
. It is a major question the Chiefs have to adress. The biggest question of the weekend.


I agree.

Brock
04-23-2008, 09:13 AM
It would take balls to draft Ryan. It ain't gonna happen.

patteeu
04-23-2008, 09:14 AM
If the Chiefs think Rayn is the answer, we could always trade up a couple of spots to get him. Herm has traded up before with the Jets to get a player. It is a major question the Chiefs have to adress. The biggest question of the weekend.

Goodness, I hope they don't think that highly of him.

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 09:16 AM
It would take balls to draft Ryan. It ain't gonna happen.

Agreed. i dont see the Chiefs being that ballsy to move up. It all depends on how much they like him??

More likely they just sit tight and see who falls to them at number 5.

They might seriously consider taking Brohm, Henne or Flacco at number 17 or the 2nd. Wouldnt surprise me in the least.

Sanka
04-23-2008, 09:16 AM
If the Chiefs think Rayn is the answer, we could always trade up a couple of spots to get him. Herm has traded up before with the Jets to get a player. It is a major question the Chiefs have to adress. The biggest question of the weekend.
Why in the world would we trade up? Seriously we need all our draft picks. And no way in hell do I want a guy who's nickname is Natty Ice.

JBucc
04-23-2008, 09:17 AM
I think we're going to stick with Croyle one more year. Might draft a quarterback on the second day but I don't think we'll be in position to draft one in rounds 1 or 2 except for maybe Henne.

Sanka
04-23-2008, 09:20 AM
We need to replace JA and find a OT with our first 2 picks. Its Ellis or bust for me with #5.

eazyb81
04-23-2008, 09:21 AM
They might seriously consider taking Brohm, Henne or Flacco at number 17 or the 2nd. Wouldnt surprise me in the least.

I would puke if we took Henne or Flacco at 17, but Brohm is intriguing. I posted a thread about this yesterday in the Draft Forum.

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 09:21 AM
I think we're going to stick with Croyle one more year. Might draft a quarterback on the second day but I don't think we'll be in position to draft one in rounds 1 or 2 except for maybe Henne.

The writing has been on the wall how the Chiefs feel about Croyle for awhile. They are not 100% sold on him.

I found this story interesting. Perhaps this is what the Chiefs will do with that extra #1 pick??




http://www.kansascity.com/sports/football/story/587710.html

In three of the last four years, a team that did not draft a quarterback with its first pick traded back into the end of the first round to take one.

“I think it’s going to happen again,” said NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock. “A team that doesn’t get Matt Ryan in the first round is going to sit there, like Atlanta … if Atlanta doesn’t take him at three, they have three second-round picks … are they going to wait to take a Flacco or a Henne or a Brohm?

StcChief
04-23-2008, 09:25 AM
The Ryan love affair has to end....we have more pressing issues.

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 09:26 AM
The Ryan love affair has to end....we have more pressing issues.


So getting a potential QBoTF isnt a big deal to you??

HMc
04-23-2008, 09:29 AM
do we really want some POS QB from the 3rd round? Havent we already got one of them?

eazyb81
04-23-2008, 09:31 AM
do we really want some POS QB from the 3rd round? Havent we already got one of them?

Exactly. Either bite the bullet and take a QB with 1st round pick or don't take one at all. It's like a little kid wanting to jump in the pool, but will only stick his foot in.

markk
04-23-2008, 09:31 AM
I would puke if we took Henne or Flacco at 17, but Brohm is intriguing. I posted a thread about this yesterday in the Draft Forum.

i would puke if we took henne no matter what pick it was

Coogs
04-23-2008, 09:54 AM
Give Croyle a chance this year...

That is the question the Chiefs have to ask themselves. We are in position by either moving up or setting tight to draft Ryan. Do they roll the dice with either on of these two? It's going to be the Todd Blackledge/Jim Kelley-Dan Marino scenario ot the future?

And if it is Brohm (Flacco or Henne) vs Croyle.... then that is probably qusetion number 2 of the draft.

Coogs
04-23-2008, 09:57 AM
Why the hell is Ryan the best in the draft?

One of the guys I was watching on the draft shows last night... and I thin it was Casserly, but I could be wrong there... thought Ryan was not only the best QB in the draft, but the best player in the draft. And no, it was not Mayock.

TN_Chief
04-23-2008, 09:57 AM
We can argue 'til the cows come home on how these picks can be spent on players. And it is a lot of fun to do just that. But the essential question that needs to be answered prior to the draft up at Arrowhead is the QB question. All other positions on this team are secondary to that decision.

It's going to be interesting Saturday:toast:!Neither Ryan nor Croyle nor any other QB is going to be able to do jack behind a swiss cheese line...

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 09:59 AM
Neither Ryan nor Croyle nor any other QB is going to be able to do jack behind a swiss cheese line...

Why do you think the Chiefs wanted to stockpile picks this year?? With 13 picks, im going to guess they draft 4-5 O-linemen.

tiptap
04-23-2008, 10:05 AM
Cleveland has a good QB sitting on the pine. Whoever drafts Brohm or Flacco or Henne will have excess QBs sitting on the pine. We would get to see these players perform in the preseason games. We get a QB, if it come to that with Croyle not working out, after the line play has settled down. We trade for a much more known quantity. There is no assurance that you will get a Manning instead of a Leaf in choosing in the first round YOURSELF. But trading for that quality off a team is the Chief's method. I am ok with that.

El Jefe
04-23-2008, 10:07 AM
its either croyle, or someone we pick up saturday. might not be ryan

Please Lord hear my prayer, send us any QB, but Lord just don't let it be Henne from that awful team up North...LOL Anyway, it is going to be such a good draft, I am going to be zoned into the television, I think the 3rd round is going to be a blast.

PhillyChiefFan
04-23-2008, 10:08 AM
Stafford, Tebow, Harrell, Daniel, Boeckman are all coming out next year, build the line and if Croyle can't cut it, we pick up a solid QB next year and not have to waste a pick this year when we have the need of protecting the QB that we have now.

Build the line, and select a QB next year when the draft has more depth at the position. Our options this year: Brohm and Ryan. Why not address the needs that we have in the trenchs now, solidify the lines (O & D) and get a QBOTF next year when all we have to do is plug a smart QB into the system with the protection in place already. JMHO.

PhillyChiefFan
04-23-2008, 10:09 AM
Cleveland has a good QB sitting on the pine. Whoever drafts Brohm or Flacco or Henne will have excess QBs sitting on the pine. We would get to see these players perform in the preseason games. We get a QB, if it come to that with Croyle not working out, after the line play has settled down. We trade for a much more known quantity. There is no assurance that you will get a Manning instead of a Leaf in choosing in the first round YOURSELF. But trading for that quality off a team is the Chief's method. I am ok with that.

You beat me to it. Well said :clap:

TN_Chief
04-23-2008, 10:10 AM
Why do you think the Chiefs wanted to stockpile picks this year?? With 13 picks, im going to guess they draft 4-5 O-linemen.Which is great (all the picks)...if you trust the guys making the picks. I don't.

PhillyChiefFan
04-23-2008, 10:11 AM
Please Lord hear my prayer, send us any QB, but Lord just don't let it be Henne from that awful team up North...LOL Anyway, it is going to be such a good draft, I am going to be zoned into the television, I think the 3rd round is going to be a blast.

You are a Buckeye, what do you think of Boeckman? I'm a PSU fan and he tore us a new one this past year. I think he is eligible for the draft next year, I am impressed with him from what I have seen.

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 10:12 AM
Which is great (all the picks)...if you trust the guys making the picks. I don't.


We are stuck with, who we are stuck with. What do you want them to do? Forfeit the draft?? LOL

Just relax and have some fun. This weekend is going to be fun no matter what happens.

Brock
04-23-2008, 10:12 AM
Stafford, Tebow, Harrell, Daniel, Boeckman

I doubt any of those guys will be as solid a pro as Matt Ryan.

OnTheWarpath58
04-23-2008, 10:15 AM
I doubt any of those guys will be as solid a pro as Matt Ryan.

I think Stafford could be better than Ryan.

The rest of the list? I agree completely.

HMc
04-23-2008, 10:16 AM
Yeah, wait till next year so Carl can draft Ben Olson.

PhillyChiefFan
04-23-2008, 10:17 AM
I doubt any of those guys will be as solid a pro as Matt Ryan.

Really? I guess I haven't seen Ryan play as much. I think Stafford will be good, jury's still out with Tebow, but I think he will be like Troy Smith, and Harrell is a system QB. I was just saying that there will be a lot of options next year. I guess I'm just a 'build the lines' kind of football fan.

jidar
04-23-2008, 10:31 AM
You know I've been studying the hell out of the draft and looked at a ton of mocks, and I'd say less than 1 in 10 has had Ryan going before the 5th pick.
If we want him, we can probably get him without trading up.

I'll say this though, we need picks and frankly we shouldn't be trading for anything. Trading up to fill a position is what you do when you're trying to make a push, when you're in rebuilding mode you use your picks or trade down for more of them.

milkman
04-23-2008, 10:33 AM
Cleveland has a good QB sitting on the pine. Whoever drafts Brohm or Flacco or Henne will have excess QBs sitting on the pine. We would get to see these players perform in the preseason games. We get a QB, if it come to that with Croyle not working out, after the line play has settled down. We trade for a much more known quantity. There is no assurance that you will get a Manning instead of a Leaf in choosing in the first round YOURSELF. But trading for that quality off a team is the Chief's method. I am ok with that.

Yeah, Scott Mitchell was a "known quantity" when the Lions traded for him a few years ago.

nychief
04-23-2008, 10:34 AM
we need to develop a QB.

Mr. Kotter
04-23-2008, 10:38 AM
I like Croyle. I think he has the potential to become as good or better than Ryan will become. I think Ryan will be good; but I also think we got a steal in Croyle.

The only question IMO that has any real bearing on this discussion....is:

Can Croyle stay healthy? :shrug:

If the Chiefs are reasonably sure that he CAN stay healthy, there are too many other holes on this team to fill....to waste the time, money, and resources in grooming another rookie QB, who is likely not the second coming of Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.

JMHO.

xbarretx
04-23-2008, 10:38 AM
Agreed. i dont see the Chiefs being that ballsy to move up. It all depends on how much they like him??

More likely they just sit tight and see who falls to them at number 5.

They might seriously consider taking Brohm, Henne or Flacco at number 17 or the 2nd. Wouldnt surprise me in the least.

Flacco in the 2nd FTW!

Coogs
04-23-2008, 10:54 AM
Stafford, Tebow, Harrell, Daniel, Boeckman are all coming out next year, build the line and if Croyle can't cut it, we pick up a solid QB next year and not have to waste a pick this year when we have the need of protecting the QB that we have now.

Build the line, and select a QB next year when the draft has more depth at the position. Our options this year: Brohm and Ryan. Why not address the needs that we have in the trenchs now, solidify the lines (O & D) and get a QBOTF next year when all we have to do is plug a smart QB into the system with the protection in place already. JMHO.


I hear what you are saying. You can also get Ryan this season... fill out most of the O-line... and put the finishing piece in next season in Oher from Ole Miss.

Count Alex's Wins
04-23-2008, 10:56 AM
Let's just sign one of these guys:

Daunte Culpepper
Byron Leftwich (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3375681)
Trent Dilfer (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=2985226)
Tim Rattay (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3412429)
Kelly Holcomb (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3328353)
Jamie Martin (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=2987545)
Craig Nall (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3495243)
Marques Tuiasosopo (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3684237)
Tim Hasselbeck (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3423898)

alanm
04-23-2008, 10:56 AM
Any one joining me on the 0-16 bandwagon? PBJ

Gonzo
04-23-2008, 10:57 AM
You know with all this new information and the draft only a few days away, there should really be a forum dedicated to draft threads here.

Just a thought. Maybe they could call it something catchy like, I dunno, DraftPlanet or something?

Coogs
04-23-2008, 11:00 AM
You know with all this new information and the draft only a few days away, there should really be a forum dedicated to draft threads here.

Just a thought. Maybe they could call it something catchy like, I dunno, DraftPlanet or something?


What the matter? Chiefs talk cluttering up finding your favorite song thread or something? :)

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 11:00 AM
Let's just sign one of these guys:

Daunte Culpepper
Byron Leftwich (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3375681)
Trent Dilfer (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=2985226)
Tim Rattay (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3412429)
Kelly Holcomb (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3328353)
Jamie Martin (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=2987545)
Craig Nall (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3495243)
Marques Tuiasosopo (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3684237)
Tim Hasselbeck (http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=3423898)

Ya never know. Carl loves him sum washed up Vet QB!

PhillyChiefFan
04-23-2008, 11:05 AM
I hear what you are saying. You can also get Ryan this season... fill out most of the O-line... and put the finishing piece in next season in Oher from Ole Miss.

Oh god, if we have a good draft this year and fill in the line, Oher would complete it next year. Johnson would have holes the size of battleships to run through. :D

ChiefsFanatic
04-23-2008, 11:06 AM
we need to develop a QB.

said the Chiefs fans every single year the Chiefs have existed.

Psyko Tek
04-23-2008, 11:07 AM
we don't need no stinkin' QB
we have no line
and we run the R2P2 offense

we don't need a hi round hi paid qb to hand off the ball and get sacked every three downs

get a line and suddenly the QB gets better, the running back gets better, the team gets better

if we some how traded for Manning right now he would still have to learn to pass from the ground to be any good

Coogs
04-23-2008, 11:14 AM
Oh god, if we have a good draft this year and fill in the line, Oher would complete it next year. Johnson would have holes the size of battleships to run through. :D

That's what I am thinking.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 11:25 AM
I don't think it has to be Matt Ryan, but I agree that the key to any successful rebuilding project is identifying a franchise QB.

I have no faith in Brodie Croyle.

The Chiefs must use one of their first three picks on a QB.
Hopefully the #35 overall pick on Brian Brohm.

PhillyChiefFan
04-23-2008, 11:29 AM
we don't need no stinkin' QB
we have no line
and we run the R2P2 offense

we don't need a hi round hi paid qb to hand off the ball and get sacked every three downs

get a line and suddenly the QB gets better, the running back gets better, the team gets better

if we some how traded for Manning right now he would still have to learn to pass from the ground to be any good

so very true. No pocket, no completions, no touchdowns = no wins. Johnson could run the ball, and Bowe would have his 1,000 yd season. :toast:

Brock
04-23-2008, 11:35 AM
if we some how traded for Manning right now he would still have to learn to pass from the ground to be any good

Yeah. Right. That's why David Carr turned out to be so good when he changed teams.

DaKCMan AP
04-23-2008, 11:37 AM
The Chiefs must use one of their first three picks on a QB.

ROFL

Micjones
04-23-2008, 11:39 AM
ROFL

This is funny why?
We're rebuilding and the key cog in any rebuilding project is a QB.

Brodie Croyle is not the answer there.

So, I'd ask you to do something other than pick out lame emoticons and defend your position.

Chief Wiggum
04-23-2008, 11:50 AM
My gut tells me Ryan will make it to us at 5 but we don't draft him. We either trade back to 8 or take someone else. I see us possibly picking up one of the second tier guys in the second...

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if we end up bundling a few picks (since we have more now) and making a low-ball offer for Lossman or (remotely possible, but I doubt it) Quinn. It would give us some depth at QB for the year, get us younger at the position, and we wouldn't be out a ton of money if we decide to go after a QB next year.

Not saying this is what I want to happen, but look who's running the show...

DaKCMan AP
04-23-2008, 12:00 PM
This is funny why?
We're rebuilding and the key cog in any rebuilding project is a QB.

Brodie Croyle is not the answer there.

So, I'd ask you to do something other than pick out lame emoticons and defend your position.

We have needs everywhere such that we shouldn't reach for a QB by pick #35. I'm not advocating that he is, but no one can claim with 100% certainty that Brodie Croyle is not the answer.

If a QB is the BPA at a pick, then fine. If he's not then we don't HAVE to take one.

Coogs
04-23-2008, 12:01 PM
My gut tells me Ryan will make it to us at 5 but we don't draft him.

That very well could happen. And that is the reason I started this thread. If Ryan is there at 5, that question... Croyle or Ryan.... above all others has to be the key to the future of our team.

Count Alex's Wins
04-23-2008, 12:01 PM
I still think Flacco is intriguing. The guy is a hoss with a howitzer. Someone's gonna take him in the 2nd.

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 12:01 PM
We have needs everywhere such that we shouldn't reach for a QB by pick #35. I'm not advocating that he is, but no one can claim with 100% certainty that Brodie Croyle is not the answer.

If a QB is the BPA at a pick, then fine. If he's not then we don't HAVE to take one.


Ill go on record right now and claim Croyle will never be the answer.

DaKCMan AP
04-23-2008, 12:02 PM
I doubt any of those guys will be as solid a pro as Matt Ryan.

Yet at this time last year Matt Ryan was a probably first day guy (read - first day, not first round) and Brian Brohm was a definite top-5 selection. I'll wait until December to accurately judge the 2009 QB class.

DaKCMan AP
04-23-2008, 12:03 PM
Ill go on record right now and claim Croyle will never be the answer.

That's your opinion. I'm not saying he will or wont be, but no one will know for sure until he gets an opportunity.

Brock
04-23-2008, 12:03 PM
Yet at this time last year Matt Ryan was a probably first day guy (read - first day, not first round) and Brian Brohm was a definite top-5 selection. I'll wait until December to accurately judge the 2009 QB class.

This is true.

Chief Wiggum
04-23-2008, 12:05 PM
I still think Flacco is intriguing. The guy is a hoss with a howitzer. Someone's gonna take him in the 2nd.

You make a good point Goatse. Not sure how I feel about the guy personally, but I think he has huge upside. Did you see the ESPN talent competition thing they do every year? I know it doesn't mean squat about their ability to play in the NFL, but the one thing I took away from it was his ability to move around. He was pretty nimble for how big he is.

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 12:06 PM
That's your opinion. I'm not saying he will or wont be, but no one will know for sure until he gets an opportunity.

Its not just his ability. Look at his injury history. He gets hurt if the wind blows.

the Talking Can
04-23-2008, 12:06 PM
Croyle will get his opportunity this year regardless....

the issue is whether we pass on a rare opportunity to draft a QB in the first....

OnTheWarpath58
04-23-2008, 12:07 PM
Its not just his ability. Look at his injury history. He gets hurt if the wind blows.


Yet people are advocating taking Brohm, who's been under the knife 3 times in 3 years?

UncleChief83
04-23-2008, 12:07 PM
im new here, but couldnt sit back. ok, one issue ive been reading on here is about matt ryan. i read someone say he had one great year. i watch college football religiously and know he was not a one year wonder. he has the best potential to be a good QB, dont know about great, by far then any other QB in this draft. im out in california and he honestly reminds me of carson palmer of USC in terms of potential. with our few extra picks, i dont see why we couldnt go after him and some O line with the extra first round pick and our early 2nd. remember, o line is loaded in this draft. and remember we got a steal with jared allen a few years ago late in the draft. we could press our luck and try to steal d line later. but ryan is by far a way better QB than croyle. we need to go after a QB of the future. not another third rounder, who may end up being another croyle.

suds79
04-23-2008, 12:08 PM
I still think Flacco is intriguing. The guy is a hoss with a howitzer. Someone's gonna take him in the 2nd.

True but I'd rate arm strength fairly low on the list of qualities that makes a good NFL QB.

IMO:

1 - Field Vision
1a - Ability to make quick decisions
2 - Accuracy
3 - Composure
4 - Arm Strength

patteeu
04-23-2008, 12:09 PM
You know I've been studying the hell out of the draft and looked at a ton of mocks, and I'd say less than 1 in 10 has had Ryan going before the 5th pick.
If we want him, we can probably get him without trading up.

I'll say this though, we need picks and frankly we shouldn't be trading for anything. Trading up to fill a position is what you do when you're trying to make a push, when you're in rebuilding mode you use your picks or trade down for more of them.

It's just a gut feeling, but I think someone will take him before #5. If not Atlanta, someone who trades up to get him.

PhillyChiefFan
04-23-2008, 12:09 PM
Its not just his ability. Look at his injury history. He gets hurt if the wind blows.

Thats my biggest concern about him. I have no doubt that he can throw the ball, I just hold my breath everytime a DE or LB gets near him.

That and he kind of looks like Jon Heder...but mostly the first thing. :D

the Talking Can
04-23-2008, 12:09 PM
im new here, but couldnt sit back. ok, one issue ive been reading on here is about matt ryan. i read someone say he had one great year. i watch college football religiously and know he was not a one year wonder. he has the best potential to be a good QB, dont know about great, by far then any other QB in this draft. im out in california and he honestly reminds me of carson palmer of USC in terms of potential. with our few extra picks, i dont see why we couldnt go after him and some O line with the extra first round pick and our early 2nd. remember, o line is loaded in this draft. and remember we got a steal with jared allen a few years ago late in the draft. we could press our luck and try to steal d line later. but ryan is by far a way better QB than croyle. we need to go after a QB of the future. not another third rounder, who may end up being another croyle.


welcome to the planet

Coogs
04-23-2008, 12:11 PM
Croyle will get his opportunity this year regardless....

the issue is whether we pass on a rare opportunity to draft a QB in the first....

Agreed! I have been a fan of this team for right at 40 years. This opportunity has not came along very often... and may not Saturday either. And the Chiefs have blown the chances they have had through the years. But just because they have blown them doesn't mean you still shouldn't take the chance. By passing on Ryan... and he turns out to be a stud... you have blown it as well. If we are going to blow it, I would just as soon it be by taking him and having him be a bust, as opposed to passing and have him be a star.

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 12:11 PM
im new here, but couldnt sit back. ok, one issue ive been reading on here is about matt ryan. i read someone say he had one great year. i watch college football religiously and know he was not a one year wonder. he has the best potential to be a good QB, dont know about great, by far then any other QB in this draft. im out in california and he honestly reminds me of carson palmer of USC in terms of potential. with our few extra picks, i dont see why we couldnt go after him and some O line with the extra first round pick and our early 2nd. remember, o line is loaded in this draft. and remember we got a steal with jared allen a few years ago late in the draft. we could press our luck and try to steal d line later. but ryan is by far a way better QB than croyle. we need to go after a QB of the future. not another third rounder, who may end up being another croyle.


First if all: Welcome to the Board!

second: Your already smarter than 50% of the populace here. Great post!

keg in kc
04-23-2008, 12:12 PM
QB is only a key to the rebuild this year if they believe one of the available ones has franchise potential, and if that's the case, I think it has to come at 5, 17 or 35.

Otherwise they're drafting one for the sake of drafting one, which is a waste of a pick as far as I'm concerned. We don't need another Brodie Croyle, we need someone that everyone in the organization believes will be a starter. And I don't know if that guy's in this draft or not.

There's part of me that hopes Ryan's gone before 5, so we don't have to deal with the repercussions of taking him/not taking him.

patteeu
04-23-2008, 12:13 PM
You know with all this new information and the draft only a few days away, there should really be a forum dedicated to draft threads here.

Just a thought. Maybe they could call it something catchy like, I dunno, DraftPlanet or something?

:spock: IMO, the point of the Draft Forum isn't to get draft discussions out of the main Lounge in the week leading up to the draft, it's to give the Procters of the world a place to examine the draft from every possible angle several months before the rest of us become acutely interested in the subject. If draft talk doesn't belong in the main forum during draft week, this place shouldn't be considered a football message board anymore.

Deberg_1990
04-23-2008, 12:14 PM
Agreed! I have been a fan of this team for right at 40 years. This opportunity has not came along very often... and may not Saturday either. And the Chiefs have blown the chances they have had through the years. But just because they have blown them doesn't mean you still shouldn't take the chance. By passing on Ryan... and he turns out to be a stud... you have blown it as well. If we are going to blow it, I would just as soon it be by taking him and having him be a bust, as opposed to passing and have him be a star.


Everyone blasts Carl for never developing a young stud QB (deservedly so).

Buthonestly the only QB he passed on in the 1st round was Aaron Rodgers a few years ago. The rest we never had a shot at because we drafted too high, or they turned out to be bad anyways.

keg in kc
04-23-2008, 12:15 PM
:spock: IMO, the point of the Draft Forum isn't to get draft discussions out of the main Lounge in the week leading up to the draft, it's to give the Procters of the world a place to examine the draft from every possible angle several months before the rest of us become acutely interested in the subject. If draft talk doesn't belong in the main forum during draft week, this place shouldn't be considered a football message board anymore.Seriously.

the Talking Can
04-23-2008, 12:15 PM
QB is only a key to the rebuild this year if they believe one of the available ones has franchise potential, and if that's the case, I think it has to come at 5, 17 or 35.

Otherwise they're drafting one for the sake of drafting one, which is a waste of a pick as far as I'm concerned. We don't need another Brodie Croyle, we need someone that everyone in the organization believes will be a starter.

with this, agree, I do...exactly

life is risky...if Ryan is there I think we have to pick him....

PhillyChiefFan
04-23-2008, 12:16 PM
im new here, but couldnt sit back. ok, one issue ive been reading on here is about matt ryan. i read someone say he had one great year. i watch college football religiously and know he was not a one year wonder. he has the best potential to be a good QB, dont know about great, by far then any other QB in this draft. im out in california and he honestly reminds me of carson palmer of USC in terms of potential. with our few extra picks, i dont see why we couldnt go after him and some O line with the extra first round pick and our early 2nd. remember, o line is loaded in this draft. and remember we got a steal with jared allen a few years ago late in the draft. we could press our luck and try to steal d line later. but ryan is by far a way better QB than croyle. we need to go after a QB of the future. not another third rounder, who may end up being another croyle.

Welcome to the Planet UC83!

patteeu
04-23-2008, 12:16 PM
I don't think it has to be Matt Ryan, but I agree that the key to any successful rebuilding project is identifying a franchise QB.

I have no faith in Brodie Croyle.

The Chiefs must use one of their first three picks on a QB.
Hopefully the #35 overall pick on Brian Brohm.

I think the Chiefs will take a quarterback in the first 3 rounds, but not necessarily the first 3 picks. My understanding of Herm's philosophy suggests that he will be taking a QB somewhere in most drafts until he hits on a winner.

I also think the Chiefs will be taking a WR in the first 3 rounds based on the things Mitch Holthus has been saying this off-season.

DaKCMan AP
04-23-2008, 12:22 PM
QB is only a key to the rebuild this year if they believe one of the available ones has franchise potential

Exactly, but I think some people here want to draft a QB just because we have a top-5 pick and taking one high = franchise QB. I just don't think Ryan is that guy.

Coach
04-23-2008, 12:24 PM
I would still like a o-line that can give the quarterback at least 4 seconds to throw the goddamn football.

Coogs
04-23-2008, 12:44 PM
Everyone blasts Carl for never developing a young stud QB (deservedly so).

Buthonestly the only QB he passed on in the 1st round was Aaron Rodgers a few years ago. The rest we never had a shot at because we drafted too high, or they turned out to be bad anyways.

I didn't say just Carl. I have been on the Chiefs bandwagon for 40 years now. And we have had chances in those 40 years. Not many... just as under the CP watch. This year we may... or may not... have another chance.

Coogs
04-23-2008, 12:46 PM
I would still like a o-line that can give the quarterback at least 4 seconds to throw the goddamn football.

I think that goes without saying. If we don't get all of the o-line this draft, Oher will be there at the top of next year. And most likely we will be there as well. Ryan and Oher sounds much more appealing than Albert and Tebow.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 12:47 PM
We have needs everywhere such that we shouldn't reach for a QB by pick #35. I'm not advocating that he is, but no one can claim with 100% certainty that Brodie Croyle is not the answer.

If a QB is the BPA at a pick, then fine. If he's not then we don't HAVE to take one.

Value-based drafting is slightly overrated in my book.

Even when considering draft value we won't have to reach for a QB at #35.
Brohm could very well go earlier than that.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 12:49 PM
Exactly, but I think some people here want to draft a QB just because we have a top-5 pick and taking one high = franchise QB. I just don't think Ryan is that guy.

YOU don't think Ryan's the guy.
Many draft experts/fans think he is.
Certainly you aren't making yourself the arbiter of who is worthy of the #5 pick are you?

Having the #5 pick has no bearing on whether or not we draft a QB.
It's the biggest need any team rebuilding has.

No one can say anything certain about Croyle after 9 NFL starts.
That should tell you everything you need to know.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 12:50 PM
I think the Chiefs will take a quarterback in the first 3 rounds, but not necessarily the first 3 picks.

You can't expect to build a championship team making Middle Round commitments to QB's every two years. They need to make a real commitment.

keg in kc
04-23-2008, 12:53 PM
Exactly, but I think some people here want to draft a QB just because we have a top-5 pick and taking one high = franchise QB. I just don't think Ryan is that guy.Well, I'd imagine if the Chiefs took him, it would be because they think he's that guy...

I don't know if he's a franchise QB or not. But I do think he could be one. I'll leave the more detailed analysis to the guys with the game tape.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 12:56 PM
Well said.

Ryan is absolutely worthy of the #5 pick. He's a consensus Top 10 draftee.
Now whether or not he can be a franchise QB remains to be seen, but that's the lot of every player who'll be taken over the weekend.

DaKCMan AP
04-23-2008, 12:56 PM
YOU don't think Ryan's the guy.
Many draft experts/fans think he is.
Certainly you aren't making yourself the arbiter of who is worthy of the #5 pick are you?

I guess I'm not allowed to have an opinion. Many draft experts/fans thought Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Tim Couch and others were going to be the guy and as history has shown they're always right.

No one can say anything certain about Croyle after 9 NFL starts. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Croyle has only had 6 NFL starts. That tells me everything I need to know about the drivel coming from you.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 01:00 PM
I guess I'm not allowed to have an opinion.

Having an opinion and exalting yourself as a QB tastemaker are two entirely different things.

Many draft experts/fans thought Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Tim Couch and others were going to be the guy and as history has shown they're always right.

So at the end of the day all we've proven is that people are fallible.
That helps your argument?

He's a consensus Top 8 draftee.
That all but ends the argument that we'd be reaching for him.

What you're really trying to say is... You don't know if we can take the risk of drafting him there because he may or may not pan out. You want a safer pick. I get that.

Croyle has only had 6 NFL starts. That tells me everything I need to know about the drivel coming from you.

He's had 9. He started 3 pre-season games.
And please... Spare me the speech about how pre-season play doesn't matter. It's pre-season play that determines a good percentage of an NFL roster. It's absolutely significant.

DaKCMan AP
04-23-2008, 01:09 PM
Having an opinion and exalting yourself as a QB tastemaker are two entirely different things.

I appreciate your anointment, but I never proclaimed myself the supreme QB talent scout. I simply stated I don't think he'll be the guy.


He's had 9. He started 3 pre-season games.
And please... Spare me the speech about how pre-season play doesn't matter. It's pre-season play that determines a good percentage of an NFL roster. It's absolutely significant.

LMAO

DaKCMan AP
04-23-2008, 01:15 PM
FWIW, I've stated that I'd be thrilled with Dorsey or Chris Long, happy with Ellis, ok with Ryan or Gholston and pissed with anyone else.

I just like Dorsey/Long/Ellis and possibly Gholston more than Ryan, that's all.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 01:18 PM
I appreciate your anointment, but I never proclaimed myself the supreme QB talent scout. I simply stated I don't think he'll be the guy.

Which amounts to little in my book.

LMAO

You fall back on this little guy quite a bit when a rebuttal escapes you huh?

DaKCMan AP
04-23-2008, 01:24 PM
Which amounts to little in my book.



You fall back on this little guy quite a bit when a rebuttal escapes you huh?

The NFL doesn't consider a preseason start as a "NFL start" so I think it's LMAO that you are so adamant that it does. There's nothing else to do but laugh at that logic.

patteeu
04-23-2008, 01:28 PM
You can't expect to build a championship team making Middle Round commitments to QB's every two years. They need to make a real commitment.

I think Herm intends to pick a QB (or acquire one through trade or free agency) more often than every other year and I don't necessarily think they will always be middle round commitments.

If the Chiefs think that Ryan is the guy, they should definitely spend a #5 on him. If they think Brohm or anyone else is the guy, they should spend the #5 on them even if the rest of the league snickers and everyone at Chiefsplanet groans about a "reach".

If they aren't convinced enough to spend their #5 on the guy they believe in, they should wait to take a QB when they think the gamble is worth it even if it means waiting until round 3 or round 5. It all depends on who falls to them each time they have the chance to pick. You can't will an NFL QB into existence by spending a high pick on him just because he played the position in college.

patteeu
04-23-2008, 01:31 PM
A new way to look at the Ryan option:

I'm assuming that nearly everyone here would agree that Ryan should be the Chiefs pick at #5 if we knew for sure that he'd be a franchise QB. The question becomes, how much of a gamble are you willing to make with that pick? If he's got a 90% chance of being that guy, I'd probably take the chance. If he's got a 10% chance, I'm going to go in a different direction. I don't know where I'd draw the line, but it would probably be somewhere north of 50%.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 01:31 PM
The NFL doesn't consider a preseason start as a "NFL start" so I think it's LMAO that you are so adamant that it does. There's nothing else to do but laugh at that logic.

Sure they do. They track it as a pre-season statistic.
And how it's tracked statistically has nothing to do with its value as a way to evaluate player performance.

Again, it determines a good percentage of NFL rosters every year.

And I can guarantee you if he had played well you wouldn't want to strike it from the discussion.

J Diddy
04-23-2008, 01:34 PM
Sure they do. They track it as a pre-season statistic.
And how it's tracked statistically has nothing to do with its value as a way to evaluate player performance.

Again, it determines a good percentage of NFL rosters every year.

And I can guarantee you if he had played well you wouldn't want to strike it from the discussion.

throwing to a guy who's going to be bagging groceries in a couple of weeks isn't going to help your stats

Micjones
04-23-2008, 01:35 PM
I think Herm intends to pick a QB (or acquire one through trade or free agency) more often than every other year and I don't necessarily think they will always be middle round commitments.

If the Chiefs think that Ryan is the guy, they should definitely spend a #5 on him. If they think Brohm or anyone else is the guy, they should spend the #5 on them even if the rest of the league snickers and everyone at Chiefsplanet groans about a "reach".

If they aren't convinced enough to spend their #5 on the guy they believe in, they should wait to take a QB when they think the gamble is worth it even if it means waiting until round 3 or round 5. It all depends on who falls to them each time they have the chance to pick. You can't will an NFL QB into existence by spending a high pick on him just because he played the position in college.

No one is suggesting that you should have to.
Again, Ryan's draft value has already been determined.

It's his ability to be a franchise QB that's up for debate.
There are questions about many of the other Top 10 picks as well.
Gholston, McFadden, Dorsey.

We can't foolproof the #5 pick.

I'm not suggesting that the Chiefs take a player they don't believe in.
I have a nagging suspicion that that's not the issue though.
I think they absolutely believe in Ryan.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 01:38 PM
throwing to a guy who's going to be bagging groceries in a couple of weeks isn't going to help your stats

I haven't broken the numbers down, but I'd imagine that in those starts the majority of those passes went to 1st/2nd team targets.

And while we're at it...
Throwing to a Hall of Fame Tight End and a viable Rookie of the Year candidate didn't either.

OnTheWarpath58
04-23-2008, 01:39 PM
No one is suggesting that you should have to.
Again, Ryan's draft value has already been determined.

It's his ability to be a franchise QB that's up for debate.
There are questions about many of the other Top 10 picks as well.
Gholston, McFadden, Dorsey.

We can't foolproof the #5 pick.

I'm not suggesting that the Chiefs take a player they don't believe in.
I have a nagging suspicion that that's not the issue though.
I think they absolutely believe in Ryan.

Ryan's draft value won't be determined until Saturday afternoon.

Ask Brady Quinn and Aaron Rodgers how their draft day went.

Just because the talking heads say he's Top 10, doesn't mean he couldn't fall on Saturday.

ChiefsCountry
04-23-2008, 01:42 PM
Ryan isnt nearly as good as Brady Quinn or Aaron Rodgers either. Its a weak QB class this year and he is the supposely the top one. Only reason he is a top 10 prospect.

OnTheWarpath58
04-23-2008, 01:43 PM
Ryan isnt nearly as good as Brady Quinn or Aaron Rodgers either. Its a weak QB class this year and he is the supposely the top one. Only reason he is a top 10 prospect.

Exactly.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 01:43 PM
Ryan's draft value won't be determined until Saturday afternoon.

I don't think his value is up for debate either way.
Neither was Quinn's. That's why it was a surprise that he fell so low. Certainly he'll be the steal of the First Round if he goes as low as Quinn did.

Just because the talking heads say he's Top 10, doesn't mean he couldn't fall on Saturday.

Absolutely, but what does that have to do with whether or not this football team should draft him?

Coogs
04-23-2008, 01:47 PM
Ryan isnt nearly as good as Brady Quinn or Aaron Rodgers either. Its a weak QB class this year and he is the supposely the top one. Only reason he is a top 10 prospect.Not according to nearly all of the talking TV heads... Kiper, McShay, Mayock... etc.

Most of them have him behind only Rothlisberger in the last 5 or 6 years. And pretty much even with Eli Manning. Ahead of all the rest.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 01:47 PM
Ryan isnt nearly as good as Brady Quinn or Aaron Rodgers either. Its a weak QB class this year and he is the supposely the top one. Only reason he is a top 10 prospect.

Why does he have to compare with previously drafted QB's to be worthy of the #5 pick in this year's draft?

He has to be a Top 5 pick irrespective of draft class and position strength within a given draft class? How many players would hold their draft value irrespective of those two factors?

Come on. These arguments keep getting worse.

patteeu
04-23-2008, 01:48 PM
No one is suggesting that you should have to.
Again, Ryan's draft value has already been determined.

It's his ability to be a franchise QB that's up for debate.
There are questions about many of the other Top 10 picks as well.
Gholston, McFadden, Dorsey.

We can't foolproof the #5 pick.

I'm not suggesting that the Chiefs take a player they don't believe in.
I have a nagging suspicion that that's not the issue though.
I think they absolutely believe in Ryan.

Draft value is already determined? Not really.

If you're really not suggesting that the Chiefs take a player they don't believe in, then the discussion is really over because they either will take him or they won't and it will be based on whether they believe in him or not. Something tells me though that you'll complain if they pass on Ryan because you think Ryan is worth a #5 (which implies that you believe in Ryan, or alternatively, you believe in the herd mentality that puts Ryan somewhere in the #5 ballpark in mock drafts).

ChiefsCountry
04-23-2008, 01:52 PM
Why does he have to compare with previously drafted QB's to be worthy of the #5 pick in this year's draft?

He has to be a Top 5 pick irrespective of draft class and position strength within a given draft class? How many players would hold their draft value irrespective of those two factors?

Come on. These arguments keep getting worse.

If you are comparing franchise quarterbacks - I would be looking at the guys taken the previous years first and see what there grades were and then compare them to grade that you rate this years. Face it Matt Ryan is not Vince Young, Matt Leinart, or Jay Cutler good. Heck he isnt even in the same ballpark as Russell or Quinn last year.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 01:52 PM
Draft value is already determined? Not really.

I'd argue that his value has been determined.
His NFL fate has not. And where he will end up has not.
But that's quite a bit different.

If you're really not suggesting that the Chiefs take a player they don't believe in, then the discussion is really over because they either will take him or they won't and it will be based on whether they believe in him or not.

Well I had planned on watching the Draft...
:rolleyes:

It's quite obvious that we'll have to wait and see one way or the other.

Something tells me though that you'll complain if they pass on Ryan because you think Ryan is worth a #5 (which implies that you believe in Ryan, or alternatively, you believe in the herd mentality that puts Ryan somewhere in the #5 ballpark in mock drafts).

You don't know me personally.
Come on. I do believe Ryan is worthy of the 5th overall pick, but I could certainly make a case over and above personal preference.

I'll be fine with the #5 pick even on the chance that it isn't Ryan.
I'm not suggesting that we have to go that direction #1. But I do think we must go that direction by #35.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 01:53 PM
If you are comparing franchise quarterbacks - I would be looking at the guys taken the previous years first and see what there grades were and then compare them to grade that you rate this years. Face it Matt Ryan is not Vince Young, Matt Leinart, or Jay Cutler good. Heck he isnt even in the same ballpark as Russell or Quinn last year.

That can be argued.
It's been argued.

Coogs
04-23-2008, 01:55 PM
If you are comparing franchise quarterbacks - I would be looking at the guys taken the previous years first and see what there grades were and then compare them to grade that you rate this years. Face it Matt Ryan is not Vince Young, Matt Leinart, or Jay Cutler good. Heck he isnt even in the same ballpark as Russell or Quinn last year.


Again, not according to all of the TV talking heads. They have him ranked aboove all of those guys.

ChiefsCountry
04-23-2008, 01:56 PM
Again, not according to all of the TV talking heads. They have him ranked aboove all of those guys.

Those dumb asses do the same crap each year.

patteeu
04-23-2008, 01:56 PM
I'd argue that his value has been determined.
His NFL fate has not. And where he will end up has not.
But that's quite a bit different.



Well I had planned on watching the Draft...
:rolleyes:

It's quite obvious that we'll have to wait and see one way or the other.



You don't know me personally.
Come on. I do believe Ryan is worthy of the 5th overall pick, but I could certainly make a case over and above personal preference.

I'll be fine with the #5 pick even on the chance that it isn't Ryan.
I'm not suggesting that we have to go that direction #1. But I do think we must go that direction by #35.

How is value determined until one team decides to spend a draft pick on the guy?

Why "must" the Chiefs draft a QB by #35? If there is a guy there when they pick at #5, #17, or #35, then surely they will. If they don't, it's because they don't think the available options were worth the risk. I expect them to draft a QB sometime in the first 6 picks, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they "must" do it. That's putting the pick ahead of the talent.

Micjones
04-23-2008, 01:56 PM
Again, not according to all of the TV talking heads. They have him ranked aboove all of those guys.

That obviously doesn't count for anything.
Because they've all been wrong in the past.

OnTheWarpath58
04-23-2008, 01:57 PM
How is value determined until one team decides to spend a draft pick on the guy?

Why "must" the Chiefs draft a QB by #35? If there is a guy there when they pick at #5, #17, or #35, then surely they will. If they don't, it's because they don't think the available options were worth the risk. I expect them to draft a QB sometime in the first 6 picks, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they "must" do it. That's putting the pick ahead of the talent.

Great post.

Deberg_1990
08-14-2008, 09:28 PM
Bump....not that it matters much anymore, but Ryan had a great game the other night. 9 of 15 for 113 yards. 1 TD.

He looks like he will start from day 1. Ill go out on a limb and say hes the next Carson Palmer. What the heck.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/other_nfl/view.bg?articleid=1112268&srvc=rss

Mr. Flopnuts
08-14-2008, 09:30 PM
Bump....not that it matters much anymore, but Ryan had a great game the other night. 9 of 15 for 113 yards. 1 TD.

He looks like he will start from day 1. Ill go out on a limb and say hes the next Carson Palmer. What the heck.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/other_nfl/view.bg?articleid=1112268&srvc=rss

Carson Palmer +24 INT's

RibKing67
08-14-2008, 09:49 PM
Bump....not that it matters much anymore, but Ryan had a great game the other night. 9 of 15 for 113 yards. 1 TD.

He looks like he will start from day 1. Ill go out on a limb and say hes the next Carson Palmer. What the heck.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/other_nfl/view.bg?articleid=1112268&srvc=rss

WOW one PRE season game and its on. I think D. Carr looked good when he started in H-Town after the draft. Ryan, like Carr did will spend so much of his time on his back getting pummeled that you are correct it does not matter much anymore.

Dayze
08-14-2008, 10:53 PM
All I know is, if the Croyle is a "bust" (if a 3rd rounder is considered a bust) is it'll be another 15-20 years before we draft a QB before round 4 etc. The Chiefs PR machine will say "See....we drafted a QB and it didn't work out! Let's bring in Kurt Warner......drafting a QB doesn't work"

Deberg_1990
08-14-2008, 10:56 PM
All I know is, if the Croyle is a "bust" (if a 3rd rounder is considered a bust) is it'll be another 15-20 years before we draft a QB before round 4 etc. The Chiefs PR machine will say "See....we drafted a QB and it didn't work out! Let's bring in Kurt Warner......drafting a QB doesn't work"


hahah..i wouldnt doubt it. Would seem to fit the Chiefs backwards way of thinking.

Look at the Bengals. How many times did they try drafting a franchise QB before they finally hit? Klingler, Akili Smith, before Palmer?

Dayze
08-14-2008, 11:11 PM
Exactly. If ever there was a franchise that had reason t avoid drafting a QB like the clap, it would be the Bengals.

We, however, have the same issue except it's DT & RB.

We avoid drafting OL and QB (sans 2008 for OL) early.

STFU

Mecca
08-15-2008, 12:30 AM
Carson Palmer +24 INT's

I hope you're joking around seeing as everyone would love to have Carson Palmer.