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View Full Version : Chiefs Any Significance Today Regarding Clark Hunt's Comments From January


AJKCFAN
04-26-2008, 08:04 AM
Clark Hunt likely will not be a Jerry Jones-Daniel Snyder style owner, but he IS on record of saying he wants the Chiefs to develop their own young QB through the Draft.

I don't remember him ever endorsing Croyle to be that young QB the Chiefs need to develop.

No decent QB, let alone a 1st year QB, could've done much with that protection. It is about getting results though and Croyle is 0-8

So here the Chiefs are with the chance today to get the young QB their owner wants. They choose Matt Ryan at 5, they still have 12 more picks (if not more) to address other concerns.

Even if Ryan is the pick, Croyle deserves a fair shake this year with an upgraded OL to start the season to see if he is the answer (i.e Derek Anderson last year even though they chose Quinn or Brees a few seasons back when they just drafted Rivers) or at least can fetch value. Ryan shouldn't immediately be thrown to the wolves, but should be able to start a half-season worth of games if things fall apart. No decent QB, let alone a 1st year QB, could've done much with that protection. It is about getting results though and Croyle is 0-8

Yet, if Ryan is the choice at 5 (or by a Chiefs trade up to get him), then one can tell right away Clark really was determined to have Ryan be this particular pick (or at a minimum, strongly supported the selection).

Whether it's Croyle or Ryan, the Chiefs youth movement is going to almost definitely put them back in the Top 10 of next year's Draft to continue the rebuilding process.

Chiefs are taking Matt Ryan

pr_capone
04-26-2008, 08:13 AM
God I hope you are wrong.

I would rather ride the Brody wagon for 2 more seasons than take Ryan.

Brohm on the other hand would be a welcome addition.

TBH... if we did not draft a QB until the 4th rd (Brennan) and stuck with Croyle until we see some development from either or none, I would be content with that as well.

To draft a QB in the top 5 and not have him start the season seems like a waste to me. But drafting a QB in the top 5 with no one to protect him seems like an even bigger waste. No reason to let a guy who is going to have mega millions in guaranteed moneys get mangled before he even has a chance to show off what he has.

patteeu
04-26-2008, 08:55 AM
Chiefs take a QB in the draft, but it won't be Matt Ryan, in my estimation. I'm expecting it to be a pick in the 3rd round or later (IOW, it won't be Brohm, Henne, or Flacco either).

Sully
04-26-2008, 09:00 AM
So... let's play this out...

We give Brodie 1 or 2 more years to play with this new group of players...
Most draft picks sign 3-4 year contracts...
So we find out Croyle is what we think he is (made of balsa wood...how did the doctors not catch that?) 1 or 2 years down the line, then draft a guy. It takes new guy 1-2 years to learn to be a decent NFL QB. By then, all these rookie contracts are up, we only sign half of them, and we are back in a mini rebuild by then.

I believe the window is now. They ****ed up by not giving Brodie the whole season to judge him on last year... but sorry, it's time to move on...

SBK
04-26-2008, 09:12 AM
If we take a QB today I want it to be Brohm with the 17 or 35 pick....

patteeu
04-26-2008, 09:16 AM
So... let's play this out...

We give Brodie 1 or 2 more years to play with this new group of players...
Most draft picks sign 3-4 year contracts...
So we find out Croyle is what we think he is (made of balsa wood...how did the doctors not catch that?) 1 or 2 years down the line, then draft a guy. It takes new guy 1-2 years to learn to be a decent NFL QB. By then, all these rookie contracts are up, we only sign half of them, and we are back in a mini rebuild by then.

I believe the window is now. They ****ed up by not giving Brodie the whole season to judge him on last year... but sorry, it's time to move on...

I believe that the Chiefs current philosophy is to constantly acquire new QBs until they hit on one that has "it". I think they are willing to spend a high draft pick if they have a lot of confidence in a guy (for example, if they happen to be in position to draft Eli Manning or Carson Palmer, they will). But if they consider the guy to be a gamble (and surely that's the case with Matt Ryan), I think it's more likely that they will take a guy later in the draft. If Croyle pans out this year then great. If not, they will have Thigpen and NewDraftee grooming for the year and ready to take a shot in 2009. Meanwhile, if we are still looking for "the guy" next year, we rinse and repeat. They plan to keep a QB pipeline flowing, but it's way too expensive to fill that pipeline with a series of 1st round picks.

It's the difference between taking a gamble on this year's spotlight guy just because we happen to have a high draft spot and taking a more methodical approach to finding a QB over a period of a few years. Given the hit and miss nature of QB prospects and given the way you become married to a QB who you take early in the draft (see SF and Alex Smith for example), I think the Chiefs approach is the prudent one.

Sully
04-26-2008, 09:20 AM
I believe that the Chiefs current philosophy is to constantly acquire new QBs until they hit on one that has "it". I think they are willing to spend a high draft pick if they have a lot of confidence in a guy (for example, if they happen to be in position to draft Eli Manning or Carson Palmer, they will). But if they consider the guy to be a gamble (and surely that's the case with Matt Ryan), I think it's more likely that they will take a guy later in the draft. If Croyle pans out this year then great. If not, they will have Thigpen and NewDraftee grooming for the year and ready to take a shot in 2009. Meanwhile, if we are still looking for "the guy" next year, we rinse and repeat. They plan to keep a QB pipeline flowing, but it's way too expensive to fill that pipeline with a series of 1st round picks.

It's the difference between taking a gamble on this year's spotlight guy just because we happen to have a high draft spot and taking a more methodical approach to finding a QB over a period of a few years. Given the hit and miss nature of QB prospects and given the way you become married to a QB who you take early in the draft (see SF and Alex Smith for example), I think the Chiefs approach is the prudent one.

I keep hearing this argument, and at best it's chickenshit.
Every player, no matter position, has the chance to be a bust. But you have to pick someone in the draft. Just because you hide him at a not-so-glamourous position doesn't mean that bust hurts the team any less. If they are going to be so "cautious" then they are playing scared... and that's crap. Shit or get off the pot.
If they feel that Ryan is the best player, then they should draft him, rather than playing "cautious" and trading down for "less" of a risk, or picking a lesser player at a "position of need." (as if all the positions on this team aren't positions of need)

patteeu
04-26-2008, 09:22 AM
Chiefs take a QB in the draft, but it won't be Matt Ryan, in my estimation. I'm expecting it to be a pick in the 3rd round or later (IOW, it won't be Brohm, Henne, or Flacco either).

I'm guessing it will be someone more like Josh Johnson, Erik Ainge, Ryan O'Hara or Dennis Dixon. Maybe Andre Woodson.

patteeu
04-26-2008, 09:32 AM
I keep hearing this argument, and at best it's chickenshit.
Every player, no matter position, has the chance to be a bust. But you have to pick someone in the draft. Just because you hide him at a not-so-glamourous position doesn't mean that bust hurts the team any less. If they are going to be so "cautious" then they are playing scared... and that's crap. Shit or get off the pot.
If they feel that Ryan is the best player, then they should draft him, rather than playing "cautious" and trading down for "less" of a risk, or picking a lesser player at a "position of need." (as if all the positions on this team aren't positions of need)

If they feel that Ryan is the best player, I think they *will* draft him. I think it's highly unlikely that they will feel he's the best player available when it's their turn to draft. The only reason to elevate Ryan in terms of value is to factor in the fact that he plays, by far, the most important position on the field.

You're completely wrong about how much a miss on a position player hurts the team compared to how much a miss on a QB. If you draft a QB high, you are married to that guy for years. We missed on Ryan Sims, but he ended up being a contributing member of a rotation rather than a single point of failure bust who we would have to completely bench in order to replace. It was a bust just the same, but it had a much less significant impact.

I keep hearing the argument that you're making and at best, IMO, it's putting all your dough on the roulette wheel and hoping you get a lucky spin.

pr_capone
04-26-2008, 09:34 AM
We draft Ryan.... I will be *pissed*.

We have no business drafting someone who will only get murdered behind that chess club we have playing OL.

Sully
04-26-2008, 09:43 AM
If they feel that Ryan is the best player, I think they *will* draft him. I think it's highly unlikely that they will feel he's the best player available when it's their turn to draft. The only reason to elevate Ryan in terms of value is to factor in the fact that he plays, by far, the most important position on the field.

You're completely wrong about how much a miss on a position player hurts the team compared to how much a miss on a QB. If you draft a QB high, you are married to that guy for years. We missed on Ryan Sims, but he ended up being a contributing member of a rotation rather than a single point of failure bust who we would have to completely bench in order to replace. It was a bust just the same, but it had a much less significant impact.

I keep hearing the argument that you're making and at best, IMO, it's putting all your dough on the roulette wheel and hoping you get a lucky spin.

ROFL

A lucky spin?
Picking a top 5 QB is roulette?
If you personally judge Ryan to not be that good, that's one thing, and I disagree. That's fine.
I'm not sure I understand you, but it seems you are arguing tha the onyl reason Ryan is ranked so high is because he plays QB. If that is what you are saying, it's also horseshit, as several other QBs who were,a t one time rated as 1st rounders are now far further down the draft. If it's a choice between Ryan and some 2nd tier O-Lineman, or a D-Lineman who is, at best, rated by many scouts as equal, then make the damn pick!
The Sims pick KILLED us and is part of the reason we are where we are. Could he play in a rotation? Yeah, if you want to throw a guy out there, he did... but the fact that we had to chase DT for several year afterwards made his pick just as damaging as any QB pick would have. We DiD (and still DO) have to replace that position. We are still reeling from it, and we WERE married to him for years. We find ourselves in a position this year to pick another DT if he's the best guy, where we could have more options if Sims had worked out. The Trezelle Jenkins pick KILLED us because, even though he could contribute to an O-Line, we had to chase that position in later drafts. And we WERE married to him for several years.

ANY 1st round pick is someone you are married to for several years (3 minimum).

You act like a girl jilted you, and because of that, you are afraid to date again. It's okay to draft a QB. It's not your fault... It's not your fault...It's not your fault...

Friendo
04-26-2008, 09:53 AM
I believe that the Chiefs current philosophy is to constantly acquire new QBs until they hit on one that has "it". I think they are willing to spend a high draft pick if they have a lot of confidence in a guy (for example, if they happen to be in position to draft Eli Manning or Carson Palmer, they will). But if they consider the guy to be a gamble (and surely that's the case with Matt Ryan), I think it's more likely that they will take a guy later in the draft. If Croyle pans out this year then great. If not, they will have Thigpen and NewDraftee grooming for the year and ready to take a shot in 2009. Meanwhile, if we are still looking for "the guy" next year, we rinse and repeat. They plan to keep a QB pipeline flowing, but it's way too expensive to fill that pipeline with a series of 1st round picks.

It's the difference between taking a gamble on this year's spotlight guy just because we happen to have a high draft spot and taking a more methodical approach to finding a QB over a period of a few years. Given the hit and miss nature of QB prospects and given the way you become married to a QB who you take early in the draft (see SF and Alex Smith for example), I think the Chiefs approach is the prudent one.


totally agree!

patteeu
04-26-2008, 10:05 AM
ROFL

A lucky spin?
Picking a top 5 QB is roulette?

Absolutely. Here's a list of all the Top 5 QBs taken since the year 2000:

JaMarcus Russell (1)
Vince Young (3)
Alex Smith (1)
Eli Manning (1)
Philip Rivers (4)
Carson Palmer (1)
David Carr (1)
Joey Harrington (3)
Michael Vick (1)

Of those, I think you can call Eli Manning and Carson Palmer bona fide franchise QBs. Some, like Russell, Rivers, Young, and Vick (ignoring his off-field trouble) have potential to develop. I'd argue that Smith, Carr, and Harrington are all busts.

To me, this list says that your chances of finding a franchise guy at the top of the draft are pretty hit and miss. It's a straight up gamble, just like roulette.

patteeu
04-26-2008, 10:12 AM
If you personally judge Ryan to not be that good, that's one thing, and I disagree. That's fine.
I'm not sure I understand you, but it seems you are arguing tha the onyl reason Ryan is ranked so high is because he plays QB. If that is what you are saying, it's also horseshit, as several other QBs who were,a t one time rated as 1st rounders are now far further down the draft. If it's a choice between Ryan and some 2nd tier O-Lineman, or a D-Lineman who is, at best, rated by many scouts as equal, then make the damn pick!

I definitely think that the only reason Ryan is a top 10 prospect is because he's a QB. He may be the best QB prospect in this draft, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a good gamble. Because QB is so important and because there are always going to be teams that need a QB, there's always going to be a QB prospect in the top 10 even if none of them are as good as the top 10 guys from other years.

I'd go further to say that the only reason you like Ryan is because he's a QB. You appear to be desperate to take a chance on grabbing a QB and you think that you get good QBs by using your most valuable picks on them. I don't pretend to know whether Ryan is going to be good or not. If the Chiefs think he will be, they'll pick him. If they have questions about him, I think they'll be right to go in a different direction and take a different QB prospect with questions later in the draft.

The Sims pick KILLED us and is part of the reason we are where we are. Could he play in a rotation? Yeah, if you want to throw a guy out there, he did... but the fact that we had to chase DT for several year afterwards made his pick just as damaging as any QB pick would have. We DiD (and still DO) have to replace that position. We are still reeling from it, and we WERE married to him for years. We find ourselves in a position this year to pick another DT if he's the best guy, where we could have more options if Sims had worked out. The Trezelle Jenkins pick KILLED us because, even though he could contribute to an O-Line, we had to chase that position in later drafts. And we WERE married to him for several years.

ANY 1st round pick is someone you are married to for several years (3 minimum).

You act like a girl jilted you, and because of that, you are afraid to date again. It's okay to draft a QB. It's not your fault... It's not your fault...It's not your fault...

You're lusting over the BMOC Quarterback and I'm the one acting like a girl. Right. :rolleyes:

Sully
04-26-2008, 01:08 PM
Absolutely. Here's a list of all the Top 5 QBs taken since the year 2000:

JaMarcus Russell (1)
Vince Young (3)
Alex Smith (1)
Eli Manning (1)
Philip Rivers (4)
Carson Palmer (1)
David Carr (1)
Joey Harrington (3)
Michael Vick (1)

Of those, I think you can call Eli Manning and Carson Palmer bona fide franchise QBs. Some, like Russell, Rivers, Young, and Vick (ignoring his off-field trouble) have potential to develop. I'd argue that Smith, Carr, and Harrington are all busts.

To me, this list says that your chances of finding a franchise guy at the top of the draft are pretty hit and miss. It's a straight up gamble, just like roulette.

Hell. We might as well just not make the pick, then...
You can find just as many busts that high at ANY position.

Sully
04-26-2008, 01:13 PM
I definitely think that the only reason Ryan is a top 10 prospect is because he's a QB. He may be the best QB prospect in this draft, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a good gamble. Because QB is so important and because there are always going to be teams that need a QB, there's always going to be a QB prospect in the top 10 even if none of them are as good as the top 10 guys from other years.

I'd go further to say that the only reason you like Ryan is because he's a QB. You appear to be desperate to take a chance on grabbing a QB and you think that you get good QBs by using your most valuable picks on them. I don't pretend to know whether Ryan is going to be good or not. If the Chiefs think he will be, they'll pick him. If they have questions about him, I think they'll be right to go in a different direction and take a different QB prospect with questions later in the draft.



You're lusting over the BMOC Quarterback and I'm the one acting like a girl. Right. :rolleyes:

I'm not lusting over anyone. I think Ryan is the best pick, although I'd be absolutely ecstatic over Dorsey, Ellis or even Gholston. I'm not desperate over any position, I'm desperate the Chiefs pick the best player, and in what I've seen and studied, I think Ryan is that. I'd rather them take him than take a lesser player because they are afraid they might pick a bust, which is what you are showing... fear.

You call picking a QB playing roulette, but you prefer continuously picking QB later in the draft, hoping one might work out for us. Which one of those sounds more like gambling? Picking the guy most agree has all the tools? Or picking a guy with more questions, hoping everyone just happens to be wrong? :spock:

What you are doing is the same thing as drafting for need rather than BAA. You admit you don't know much about Ryan, you just don't want QB because it might turn out bad...

I don't think the Chiefs will draft Ryan, but IMO, he would be the best pick at 5... the best player, not the best QB.

Besides, learn to ****ing read.
I never once said you were a girl.
Stop being wrong.

patteeu
04-26-2008, 06:46 PM
I'm not lusting over anyone. I think Ryan is the best pick, although I'd be absolutely ecstatic over Dorsey, Ellis or even Gholston. I'm not desperate over any position, I'm desperate the Chiefs pick the best player, and in what I've seen and studied, I think Ryan is that. I'd rather them take him than take a lesser player because they are afraid they might pick a bust, which is what you are showing... fear.

You call picking a QB playing roulette, but you prefer continuously picking QB later in the draft, hoping one might work out for us. Which one of those sounds more like gambling? Picking the guy most agree has all the tools? Or picking a guy with more questions, hoping everyone just happens to be wrong? :spock:

What you are doing is the same thing as drafting for need rather than BAA. You admit you don't know much about Ryan, you just don't want QB because it might turn out bad...

I don't think the Chiefs will draft Ryan, but IMO, he would be the best pick at 5... the best player, not the best QB.

:deevee:

The flaw in your argument is that I know that you don't have a clue about which player is the best available. Assuming you're being honest about wanting BPA, then we're actually on the same page. But that wasn't the argument you made. In fact, you're still not making it. You are trying to argue that Ryan actually would have been the BPA at #5 if the draft had fallen as you anticipated, as if you have some knowledge. You and I both know that isn't really true. By contrast, I described what I think is the Chiefs philosophy on drafting QBs based primarily on statements from Mitch Holthus over the past few months. Holthus is a guy who is actually tied into the Chiefs organization in a way that the draft experts from whom you've developed your Matt Ryan "expertise" are not.

And yes, I recognize that the philosophy that I described (and agree with) is a gamble. That's because drafting a QB is a gamble. That's why you don't just take a QB early in the draft simply because you have a high draft pick. Given your lack of knowledge about the true merits of Matt Ryan, that's all you can really be advocating despite your hollow claim about Ryan being the best player.

Besides, learn to ****ing read.
I never once said you were a girl.
Stop being wrong.

:LOL:

I think you should have Jilly or someone who isn't blinded by emotion read the exchange back to you.

Sully
04-26-2008, 07:05 PM
:deevee:

The flaw in your argument is that I know that you don't have a clue about which player is the best available. Assuming you're being honest about wanting BPA, then we're actually on the same page. But that wasn't the argument you made. In fact, you're still not making it. You are trying to argue that Ryan actually would have been the BPA at #5 if the draft had fallen as you anticipated, as if you have some knowledge. You and I both know that isn't really true. By contrast, I described what I think is the Chiefs philosophy on drafting QBs based primarily on statements from Mitch Holthus over the past few months. Holthus is a guy who is actually tied into the Chiefs organization in a way that the draft experts from whom you've developed your Matt Ryan "expertise" are not.

And yes, I recognize that the philosophy that I described (and agree with) is a gamble. That's because drafting a QB is a gamble. That's why you don't just take a QB early in the draft simply because you have a high draft pick. Given your lack of knowledge about the true merits of Matt Ryan, that's all you can really be advocating despite your hollow claim about Ryan being the best player.



If you are saying I don't know as much as NFL scouts, GMs and coaches, I'll agree. However, that doesn't mean I can't, from the comfort of my couch, make judgments from what I see for myself, or at the very least compile a group of scouting reports and make my judgment off those. For you to try and pretend you know why I make those judgments, or pretend you have some insight as to how I value the position of QB, is really ****ing dumb... I mean, it's no dumber than you pretending I called you a girl, but it's pretty dumb nonetheless. I have always been, and still am for drafting the best player available. Had the options been Ellis, Ryan, Clady and Gholston, I absolutely think Ryan would have been the BPA. Here's the funny thing... APPARENTLY THE NFL TEAMS DID, AS WELL!!!!!
If that scenario had happened, I believe Ryan would be the best available player, regardless of position. I can't say that clear enough. If, by now, you don't get that, you are a dumb ****...

I think you should have Jilly or someone who isn't blinded by emotion read the exchange back to you.

You need to go back and read the exchange. I didn't call you a girl, or say you were acting like a girl. I said you acted like a girl jilted you, which I stand by, you ****ing dunce.

TEX
04-26-2008, 08:22 PM
Chiefs take a QB in the draft, but it won't be Matt Ryan, in my estimation. I'm expecting it to be a pick in the 3rd round or later (IOW, it won't be Brohm, Henne, or Flacco either).

I've said before that I bet/hope it's Ainge and it probably will be later than a 3rd. That way they can easily justify giving Brodie more time. IMO it's not gonna matter - Croyle is nothing more than a 3rd string QB. He's the type that will be in the league for 5 years and everyone will still be waiting to see "something." Anyway, just my take...

patteeu
04-27-2008, 06:51 AM
I've said before that I bet/hope it's Ainge and it probably will be later than a 3rd. That way they can easily justify giving Brodie more time. IMO it's not gonna matter - Croyle is nothing more than a 3rd string QB. He's the type that will be in the league for 5 years and everyone will still be waiting to see "something." Anyway, just my take...

I think a guy like Ainge makes sense for the very reason you mention. Based on nothing more than draft prospect blurbs, I like Josh Johnson, fwiw.

In addition to being a big gamble, taking Matt Ryan would have either ended the Croyle experiment outright or, at the very least, would have put an enormous amount of pressure on Croyle and the coaches to succeed immediately or give way to the supposed franchise savior. You can already see the way people like Sully worship the QB taken at the top of the draft, whoever and whatever he might be.

In the end, I would have trusted Herm and Carl's judgment (yes, I'm one of the few) if they'd elected to take Ryan with their first pick. They have adopted a philosophy which I described in post #5 that doesn't include taking flyers on any old QB just because they have a high draft pick so if they'd decided to use that high draft pick on Matt Ryan it would have shown a great deal of confidence.

Sully
04-27-2008, 07:08 AM
You can already see the way people like Sully worship the QB taken at the top of the draft, whoever and whatever he might be.

ROFL

You are absolutely a joke.

I haven't seen anyone on this site who "worships" QB at the top of round one. I have seen far more people (including you) who are piss-their-pants afraid of picking a QB high, because he might fail.
It's alright, Pat... Crisis averted, we got a great player. I'm sure you were sad we picked DT because they bust so much, but that's okay, at least the Chiefs don't run the team based on fear.

xbarretx
04-27-2008, 07:43 AM
Chiefs take a QB in the draft, but it won't be Matt Ryan, in my estimation. I'm expecting it to be a pick in the 3rd round or later (IOW, it won't be Brohm, Henne, or Flacco either).

yep, and i was surprised Flacco went so fast.

patteeu
04-27-2008, 09:08 AM
ROFL

You are absolutely a joke.

I haven't seen anyone on this site who "worships" QB at the top of round one. I have seen far more people (including you) who are piss-their-pants afraid of picking a QB high, because he might fail.
It's alright, Pat... Crisis averted, we got a great player. I'm sure you were sad we picked DT because they bust so much, but that's okay, at least the Chiefs don't run the team based on fear.

Uh oh, your window is closed. What will we ever do now? LOL

And it's looking more and more like my prediction about what the Chiefs will do is going to pan out. Ryan, Brohm, Henne, and Flacco gone. We'll see if the Chiefs take a late round QB as I anticipated.