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KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 02:40 PM
So does this mean Croyle is Herm's guy?
After all the speculation and coveting of Brohm and Ryan and others, KC did not draft a QB (through the 6th rd).

What do you think? From my foxhole, it looks like Herm/Gailey are willing to go into 2008 with Croyle at #1 on the depth chart.

banyon
04-27-2008, 02:42 PM
As long as it's not Huard.

bowener
04-27-2008, 02:43 PM
#1 punching bag for this year. I honestly hope he pulls it off though really. One thing we wont have to worry as much about next year... but I think we are going to have to continue our search for the next guy

Brock
04-27-2008, 02:43 PM
By 2010, the Chiefs will have a new starting QB and RB.

CosmicPal
04-27-2008, 02:43 PM
You haven't heard? They're bringing Jeff George out of retirement.

Marcellus
04-27-2008, 02:45 PM
I don't think there ever was a question as to if Croyle would go into the season at QB1, the question was would they draft someone to push him or as a fallback in case Croyle doesn't develop.

I think they like Thigpen and he is option #2.


Time will tell if we screwed the pooch not drafting a QB.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 02:45 PM
I think its great we didn't take a QB. Give Croyle a chance with better people around him. This is Croyle's team now and I bet he takes off this year.

I believe the best thing to happen to Croyle since Kelly is Chan Gailey. He really knows how to wring max talent from his rosters.

Mecca
04-27-2008, 02:45 PM
Just means they didn't like these QB's...

ChiliConCarnage
04-27-2008, 02:45 PM
Yes, he will be. He's too frail and his accuracy has looked poor at times but were going to be bad this year so there isn't any reason not to give him another chance.

edit: I shouldn't even say "another" chance. Even this year may be tough. If we really do start guys like Albert at LT there could be missed blocks and assignments and just guys flat out getting beat. We'd be possibly putting 3 new guys and 2 rookies into the line. Both of the rookies would be playing out of their regular position. eek

oh noes double negative!

Coogs
04-27-2008, 02:46 PM
So does this mean Croyle is Herm's guy?
After all the speculation and coveting of Brohm and Ryan and others, KC did not draft a QB (through the 6th rd).

What do you think? From my foxhole, it looks like Herm/Gailey are willing to go into 2008 with Croyle at #1 on the depth chart.


I'd say yes. The guy put us into position to win 3 or 4 games in his limited time last season. Bears, Colts, Jets, and one other one that escapes me right this moment. Other players or units let the team down... not Croyle.

And yes I was campaining for Ryan, but mostly because never in my wildest dreams did I figure Dorsey would fall to us at 5.

Shoot, the biggest fault most here can find for Croyle is they don't think he can stay healthy. We are about to find out it would seem.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 02:46 PM
I don't think there ever was a question as to if Croyle would go into the season at QB1.

Oh no. QBs were definitley scouted in the offseason. Pretty sure Ryan was a guy Herm was interested in.

keg in kc
04-27-2008, 02:47 PM
It may be as much as a statement about the lack of quality in the draft as anything about Croyle.

My guess is they still don't have any idea what they have in Brodie (good or bad). I doubt that not drafting a QB is any more of a statement of support than drafting one would have been a sign they don't believe in him.

Marcellus
04-27-2008, 02:50 PM
Oh no. QBs were definitley scouted in the offseason. Pretty sure Ryan was a guy Herm was interested in.

Possibly but he would have had to beat out Croyle in camp to be the starter and since CP wouldn't have him signed in time for camp, it couldn't happen.

BigChiefFan
04-27-2008, 02:52 PM
The plan is we give Croyle this year. If he works out, great. If he doesn't, we know what we've got to do in the future.

kstater
04-27-2008, 02:53 PM
Oh no. QBs were definitley scouted in the offseason. Pretty sure Ryan was a guy Herm was interested in.

Of course they were scouting the QB's. I would hope they scouted every player in the draft. It's their ****ing job. Obviously they didn't like what they saw in the QB's this year.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 02:53 PM
Possibly but he would have had to beat out Croyle in camp to be the starter and since CP wouldn't have him signed in time for camp, it couldn't happen.

I think Croyle is being favored by the football gods.

3rd round pick.
Never a big gamer with gaudy stats.
Has the right amount of experience at the right time to grow with a young team.
Could develop a great connection with Bowe.
Will start in a run-first, play action offense.
Will not be asked to win games right away.
Has zero pressure from the bench QBs.

Brock
04-27-2008, 02:54 PM
Hope I'm wrong about Croyle.

keg in kc
04-27-2008, 02:54 PM
We better hope Croyle hits, because if he doesn't, the rebuild's set back another year (and by that I mean until 2010/2011) while we groom whoever we draft next year (in what may be an even worse class than this one...), unless we go the veteran free agent QB route.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 02:55 PM
We better hope Croyle hits, because if he doesn't, the rebuild's set back another year while we groom whoever we draft next year (in what may be an even worse class than this one...), unless we go the veteran free agent QB route.

I'm guessing Brady Quinn will want out of Cleveland soon.

KCChiefsFan88
04-27-2008, 03:05 PM
I'm glad Dictator Carl and Herm didn't draft a QB this year... let Croyle/Huard go down with the ship this year and the next regime to come in after Dictator Carl/Herm are fired can start with a clean slate and build around their own QB.

Mecca
04-27-2008, 03:06 PM
I hope some QB's emerge or were gonna be waiting 2 years if this doesn't work out.

KCChiefsFan88
04-27-2008, 03:06 PM
Croyle having to be carted away, during the Detoilet game with a WRIST injury should be a lasting image in the minds of most Chiefs fans.

Can you imagine Favre, Manning or even Trent Green being carted off the sideline with a WRIST injury?

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 03:07 PM
I'm glad Dictator Carl and Herm didn't draft a QB this year... let Croyle/Huard go down with the ship this year and the next regime to come in after Dictator Carl/Herm are fired can start with a clean slate and build around their own QB.

That team will be 2 years into the rebuild, not exactly a winning formulae for a SB run. I think they have decided to build the 2000 Ravens or at least the 2007 Giants as their model. I bet Herm felt vindicated when the G-men upset the Pats. Old school maulball + defense vs space age pass-pass-pass and outscore your opponents.

KCChiefsFan88
04-27-2008, 03:15 PM
That team will be 2 years into the rebuild, not exactly a winning formulae for a SB run. I think they have decided to build the 2000 Ravens or at least the 2007 Giants as their model. I bet Herm felt vindicated when the G-men upset the Pats. Old school maulball + defense vs space age pass-pass-pass and outscore your opponents.

The Giants had a #1 overall pick at QB and he had to ultimately lead the Giants to the winning touchdown drive in the Super Bowl. This is far from the caretaker, "game manger" type QB that Herm wants to go with in 3rd round draft pick Croyle.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 03:17 PM
The Giants had a #1 overall pick at QB and he had to ultiamtely lead the Giants to the winning touchdown drive in the Super Bowl. This is far from the caretaker, "game manger" type QB that Herm wants to go with in 3rd round draft pick Croyle.

I won't disagree with you there. Just saying that he and Gailey seem content to build the team around a Dilferish QB scheme and a lot of running. We may be selling Croyle short. With great weapons, a rushing attack ranked a little higher than #32 and an OL that is not ranked dead last in the NFL in sacks allowed, he might look pretty hot.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 03:18 PM
Just means they didn't like these QB's...


I think they would have taken Ryan if he would have been there.

I think they feel they wont be seriously competing this year no matter who they drafted, so they might as well give Croyle at least one more year to prove himself.

If he fails, then they obviously will be looking to draft a QB #1 next year.

DeezNutz
04-27-2008, 03:22 PM
We'll be in the FA QB mix next off-season, in all probability.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 03:22 PM
I think they would have taken Ryan if he would have been there.

I think they feel they wont be seriously competing this year no matter who they drafted, so they might as well give Croyle at least one more year to prove himself.

If he fails, then they obviously will be looking to draft a QB #1 next year.

Seems plausible, tho I don't know why you would waste an entire NFL season on a guy who "might" be your QBotF...

J Diddy
04-27-2008, 03:22 PM
I think the thought here is to give him some players to work with and a chance


Last year there was no chance to evaluate him there was no running game and were constantly playing from behind

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 03:22 PM
We'll be in the FA QB mix next off-season, in all probability.

Like I said earlier, I think Brady Quinn will be looking to get out of Cleveland someday.

DeezNutz
04-27-2008, 03:24 PM
Like I said earlier, I think Brady Quinn will be looking to get out of Cleveland someday.

Maybe, but Anderson is going to have to make a believer out of me. I don't think he'll repeat his '07 effort.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 03:24 PM
Maybe, but Anderson is going to have to make a believer out of me. I don't think he'll repeat his '07 effort.

Would you give up a #1 in '09 for Quinn?

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 03:25 PM
Seems plausible, tho I don't know why you would waste an entire NFL season on a guy who "might" be your QBotF...


Once Ryan was gone, they had no choice.

Any other QB the Chiefs drafted, would have been no better than Croyle this year, so they might as well see if Croyle grows with this young team. At least give him a chance.

If he can stay healthy the whole year (doubtful), then we should all have a pretty decent ided of what hes going to be.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 03:26 PM
Once Ryan was gone, they had no choice.

Any other QB the Chiefs drafted, would have been no better than Croyle this year, so they might as well see if Croyle grows with this young team. At least give him a chance.

If he can stay healthy the whole year (doubtful), then we should all have a pretty decent ided of what hes going to be.

There were some mock drafts that had us taking Andre Woodson #1 this year. Anyone know who took him?

DeezNutz
04-27-2008, 03:27 PM
Would you give up a #1 in '09 for Quinn?

No. If Quinn gets on the field and looks like a franchise QB, Cleveland won't get rid of him. If he doesn't get on the field, we'd be giving up way too much for a player we wouldn't know that much about. The Chiefs need all the talent they can get; keep as many high picks as possible.

banyon
04-27-2008, 03:28 PM
There were some mock drafts that had us taking Andre Woodson #1 this year. Anyone know who took him?

NYG in the late 6th

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 03:28 PM
NYG in the late 6th
Thanks.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 03:28 PM
No. If Quinn gets on the field and looks like a franchise QB, Cleveland won't get rid of him. If he doesn't get on the field, we'd be giving up way too much for a player we wouldn't know that much about. The Chiefs need all the talent they can get; keep as many high picks as possible.


Up give up a 2nd for him now. But not a #1 without having seen him play.

DeezNutz
04-27-2008, 03:30 PM
Up give up a 2nd for him now. But not a #1 without having seen him play.

Maybe, but giving up high-round picks is how the Chiefs found themselves in the position that they're in.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 03:36 PM
Maybe, but giving up high-round picks is how the Chiefs found themselves in the position that they're in.


Bad drafting is what got them in this position.

Sims, Freeman, Siavii, Wilson were awful.

Id saying giving up a #1 for Trent Green worked out ok.

DaneMcCloud
04-27-2008, 03:46 PM
Would you give up a #1 in '09 for Quinn?

No way.

Why?

Additionally, Cleveland is under NO pressure to deal him.

Why would they?

ChiefaRoo
04-27-2008, 03:47 PM
If KC builds a great team and just needs a QB then they can go get a guy. They've done it before with Trent, DeBerg etc. The best thing about building with youth is their time windows all match in that they will all ascend and descend together during their careers. The only guys who don't match now are Donnie and Tony. For Tony's sake I hope KC gets good year in 2009 or no later than 2010 so KC can get him a ring.

DaneMcCloud
04-27-2008, 03:49 PM
Id saying giving up a #1 for Trent Green worked out ok.

I think the only way you can say it worked out "okay" is if the Chiefs would have won a playoff game, if not more.

Giving up the #12 pick overall for a QB that plays for only 5 seasons is an extremely hefty price to pay, especially when those teams were 6-10, 8-8, 13-3, 7-9 & 10-6. Not exactly impressive, regardless of who's "at fault".

I know everyone around here LOVES the gaudy stats but at the end of the day, that's all they were: Stats.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 03:52 PM
I think the only way you can say it worked out "okay" is if the Chiefs would have won a playoff game, if not more.

Giving up the #12 pick overall for a QB that plays for only 5 seasons is an extremely hefty price to pay, especially when those teams were 6-10, 8-8, 13-3, 7-9 & 10-6. Not exactly impressive, regardless of who's "at fault".

I know everyone around here LOVES the gaudy stats but at the end of the day, that's all they were: Stats.

I wont disagree with any of that.

I will ask who the Chiefs could have picked in 2001 (QB) that would have produced more than Trent Green?

It was a good trade.

banyon
04-27-2008, 03:53 PM
I think the only way you can say it worked out "okay" is if the Chiefs would have won a playoff game, if not more.

Giving up the #12 pick overall for a QB that plays for only 5 seasons is an extremely hefty price to pay, especially when those teams were 6-10, 8-8, 13-3, 7-9 & 10-6. Not exactly impressive, regardless of who's "at fault".

I know everyone around here LOVES the gaudy stats but at the end of the day, that's all they were: Stats.

These are the guys that were @ the pick on the board (I think)

20 St. Louis Rams Archuleta, Adam Defensive Back Arizona State
21 Buffalo Bills (from Tampa Bay)[11] Clements, Nate Defensive Back Ohio State
22 New York Giants (from Indianapolis)[13] Allen, Will Defensive Back Syracuse
23 New Orleans Saints McAllister, Deuce Running Back Mississippi
24 Denver Broncos Middlebrooks, Willie Defensive Back Minnesota
25 Philadelphia Eagles Mitchell, Freddie Wide Receiver UCLA
26 Miami Dolphins Fletcher, Jamar Defensive Back Wisconsin
27 Minnesota Vikings Bennet, Michael Bennett Running Back Wisconsin
28 Oakland Raiders Gibson, Derrick Defensive Back Florida State
29 St. Louis Rams (from Tennessee)[14] Pickett, Ryan Defensive Tackle Ohio State
30 Indianapolis Colts (from N.Y. Giants)[13] Wayne, Reggie Wide Receiver Miami (FL)
31 Baltimore Ravens Heap, Todd

Chief Faithful
04-27-2008, 03:55 PM
Bad drafting is what got them in this position.

Sims, Freeman, Siavii, Wilson were awful.

Id saying giving up a #1 for Trent Green worked out ok.

The way they drafted those years it was good they traded for Green instead of using the pick.

DaneMcCloud
04-27-2008, 03:55 PM
I wont disagree with any of that.

I will ask who the Chiefs could have picked in 2001 (QB) that would have produced more than Trent Green?

It was a good trade.

See, I completely disagree.

If the Chiefs had kept their first round pick that day, the shape of the team would have been completely different.

They would have been forced to either keep Grbac or find another QB in free agency, freeing up the #12 pick to add a player that would more than likely, still be on the roster.

The dynamic would have changed but not necessarily for the worse.

The bottom line is that the Vermeil era produced no playoff wins and left a team bereft of NFL caliber players.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 03:56 PM
See, I completely disagree.

If the Chiefs had kept their first round pick that day, the shape of the team would have been completely different.

They would have been forced to either keep Grbac or find another QB in free agency, freeing up the #12 pick to add a player that would more than likely, still be on the roster.

The dynamic would have changed but not necessarily for the worse.

The bottom line is that the Vermeil era produced no playoff wins and left a team bereft of NFL caliber players.


See post #47. The way the Chiefs drafted back in those days, we were better off trading for Trent Green.

HemiEd
04-27-2008, 04:00 PM
Keep on ****ing doubting Tyler Thigpen!:cuss:



He had a good day today.

DaneMcCloud
04-27-2008, 04:02 PM
See post #47. The way the Chiefs drafted back in those days, we were better off trading for Trent Green.

That *may* be true but the Chiefs did well with LJ & DJ in the first round. Why they traded out of the first round in 2004 is beyond me.

2002 doesn't even need to be mentioned.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 04:07 PM
I wont disagree with any of that.

I will ask who the Chiefs could have picked in 2001 (QB) that would have produced more than Trent Green?

It was a good trade.

They had a PB QB on the roster at the time (Grbac) who threw for 4,169 yds, 28 TDs and 14 INTs on a team with no running game. DV's Ramifization drove him away. So they didn't NEED a QB in the 2001 draft.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 04:40 PM
Keep on ****ing doubting Tyler Thigpen!:cuss:



He had a good day today.

I think all 3 KC QBs are sighing in relief.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 04:43 PM
They had a PB QB on the roster at the time (Grbac) who threw for 4,169 yds, 28 TDs and 14 INTs on a team with no running game. DV's Ramifization drove him away. So they didn't NEED a QB in the 2001 draft.

So your saying you would have preferred Grbac over Trent Green long term?? Grbac pussied out after 2001. Wasnt that his last NFL season with the Ravens??

eazyb81
04-27-2008, 04:47 PM
It's not too hard to figure out.

If Croyle can't take steps forward to show that he's an NFL-caliber QB with the additions of Albert, Cottram, Franklin, Richardson and a healthy LJ, then we'll know for sure that he's not our guy.

Assuming he doesn't do well, we'll have a horrible record and will be in a position to take a QB early in next year's draft or pick one up in free agency.

It's in Croyle's hands at this point. He has no more excuses.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 04:48 PM
So your saying you would have preferred Grbac over Trent Green long term?? Grbac pussied out after 2001. Wasnt that his last NFL season with the Ravens??

Grbac had more talent than any of the QBs we had brought in save Montana. Yes, he was a marginal leader and not well-liked in the community. My point was there was a greater need at that time to address the declining D rather than the league's #8 offense which is where DV set about retooling the '01 Chiefs in the image of Mike Martz.

keg in kc
04-27-2008, 04:49 PM
So your saying you would have preferred Grbac over Trent Green long term?? Grbac pussied out after 2001. Wasnt that his last NFL season with the Ravens??If Grbac stays, that offense just doesn't work.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 04:49 PM
Assuming he doesn't do well, we'll have a horrible record and will be in a position to take a QB early in next year's draft or pick one up in free agency.

It's in Croyle's hands at this point. He has no more excuses.

Exactly.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 04:49 PM
It's not too hard to figure out.

If Croyle can't take steps forward to show that he's an NFL-caliber QB with the additions of Albert, Cottram, Franklin, Richardson and a healthy LJ, then we'll know for sure that he's not our guy.

Assuming he doesn't do well, we'll have a horrible record and will be in a position to take a QB early in next year's draft or pick one up in free agency.

It's in Croyle's hands at this point. He has no more excuses.

Brodie will open up the 2008 season AT New England. It should get easier after that, but anticipate a merciless thrashing with about 4 INTs.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 04:52 PM
If Grbac stays, that offense just doesn't work.

The 2000 Chiefs had the NFL's 5th best passing attack. We didn't need "that" offense. DV elected to retool the already productive O at the expense of the declining D.

It was all about the vanity of trying to catch lightning in a bottle twice. Grbac earned and deserved the #1 QB spot on the Chiefs. The whole Ramifization experiment was a failure and was totally unneccesary in my view.

Back to Croyle, he is in the best of all possible scenarios: a young team, a new OC, an offense that can only get better.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 04:54 PM
The 2000 Chiefs had the NFL's 5th best passing attack. We didn't need "that" offense. DV elected to retool the already productive O at the expense of the declining D.

It was all about the vanity of trying to catch lightning in a bottle twice. Grbac earned and deserved the #1 QB spot on the Chiefs. The whole Ramifization experiment was a failure and was totally unneccesary in my view.

Back to Croyle, he is in the best of all possible scenarios: a young team, a new OC, an offense that can only get better.

If i remember correctly, wasnt it Grbacs decision to leave? Thats what forced DV to go out and get Green??

Oh well, im done talking abut this. Im not going to spend any more energy on stuff from 7-8 years ago. Its pointless.

keg in kc
04-27-2008, 05:01 PM
If i remember correctly, wasnt it Grbacs decision to leave? Thats what forced DV to go out and get Green??Yep. He was due a gigantic roster bonus and wouldn't renegotiate, chose to leave so he could play (and flop) with a recent SB squad.

Not to let reality get in the way of great fantasies like the Chiefs offense being good at any point before 2002, Grbac even being in Green's area code as a QB, team leader and ambassador of the franchise, or it being a mistake to bring in Priest Holmes because we had a great runningback already in Tony Richardson.

But I digress. If he doesn't 'get it' by now, he never will.

Brock
04-27-2008, 05:11 PM
The 2000 Chiefs had the NFL's 5th best passing attack. We didn't need "that" offense. DV elected to retool the already productive O at the expense of the declining D.

It was all about the vanity of trying to catch lightning in a bottle twice. Grbac earned and deserved the #1 QB spot on the Chiefs. The whole Ramifization experiment was a failure and was totally unneccesary in my view.

Back to Croyle, he is in the best of all possible scenarios: a young team, a new OC, an offense that can only get better.

LOL, Grbac earned nothing. His own teammates hated him. HATED him.

keg in kc
04-27-2008, 05:16 PM
LOL, Grbac earned nothing. His own teammates hated him. HATED him.But he had A BEARD!!!

A BEARD, goddamnit.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 05:26 PM
Yep. He was due a gigantic roster bonus and wouldn't renegotiate, chose to leave so he could play (and flop) with a recent SB squad.

Not to let reality get in the way of great fantasies like the Chiefs offense being good at any point before 2002, Grbac even being in Green's area code as a QB, team leader and ambassador of the franchise, or it being a mistake to bring in Priest Holmes because we had a great runningback already in Tony Richardson.

But I digress. If he doesn't 'get it' by now, he never will.

You're changing the subject. The Chiefs did not need to retool the NFL's 8th ranked offense or 5th ranked passing attack, certainly not at the expense of a D in freefall decline. That was all something Vermiel brought with him down I-70 from some other Missouri NFL squad. We all know how successful that was.

On the issue of Grbac, Wikipedia suggests it was Baltimore that cut him over contract disputes, not KC.

Grbac also played for the Baltimore Ravens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Ravens) before unexpectedly retiring in 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001) when the Ravens cut him in a salary cap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap) move after he refused to renegotiate his contract. Grbac retired because he did not want to uproot his family again to move to another city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Grbac

I really did not want to discuss this yet again. I was hoping to discuss Croyle as a winner in this year's draft.

Don417
04-27-2008, 05:28 PM
Good ole pos Grbac. You know, he couldn't throw it and catch it at the same time.
On the suck scale, Grbac-kup was right down there with Bono. I'd take DeBerg over two Grbac's any day of the week.

But I have a question as it relates to Croyle. Are you people actively rooting for him to fail?

DaneMcCloud
04-27-2008, 05:31 PM
I was hoping to discuss Croyle as a winner in this year's draft.

I don't know how it makes Croyle a "winner".

Because they didn't trade up to take Ryan?

Because they choose Flowers over two other QB projects in Henne & Brohm?

Brodie Croyle's on notice, regardless of who the Chiefs did or didn't draft.

If the guy continues to be injury prone and make bad decisions, nothing will stop the Chiefs from either drafting or signing a free agent QB to begin the 2009 season.

The organization isn't going to wait forever for Croyle to "get it".

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 05:35 PM
I don't know how it makes Croyle a "winner".

Because they didn't trade up to take Ryan?

Because they choose Flowers over two other QB projects in Henne & Brohm?

Brodie Croyle's on notice, regardless of who the Chiefs did or didn't draft.

If the guy continues to be injury prone and make bad decisions, nothing will stop the Chiefs from either drafting or signing a free agent QB to begin the 2009 season.

The organization isn't going to wait forever for Croyle to "get it".

Let me go on the record:
We should have selected Henne unless we were totally comitted to Croyle (which may be the case, I do not know). Croyle emerges from the 2008 draft unchallenged. I don't know how you can say anything other than he benefits from the 2008 draft. He should have a better OL and does have a much better OC who will simplify the playbook to get the kids on the field and make plays.

Henne may win the starting job in Miami or at least be the QBotF. He set some Michigan passing records and UM QBs have a long track record of success at starting QBs in the NFL. I'm happy with Croyle if he's our guy, but if there was any speculation about QBs in the draft, Henne was my guy.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 06:05 PM
Yep. He was due a gigantic roster bonus and wouldn't renegotiate, chose to leave so he could play (and flop) with a recent SB squad.

Not to let reality get in the way of great fantasies like the Chiefs offense being good at any point before 2002, Grbac even being in Green's area code as a QB, team leader and ambassador of the franchise, or it being a mistake to bring in Priest Holmes because we had a great runningback already in Tony Richardson.

But I digress. If he doesn't 'get it' by now, he never will.


The Chiefs have elected to release Grbac, who in 2000 posted one of the most prolific passing years in club history, when they were unable to negotiate a new contract. Grbac was scheduled to receive a cap-busting $10 million signing bonus on March 15, hiking his salary cap number to $16.9 million in 2001.
Earlier in the day, the Chiefs announced the release of cornerback James Hasty and defensive tackle Chester McGlockton, two veteran starters whose contracts would have cost them almost $15 million against the salary cap limit.
Peterson, who normally does not disclose details of contract negotiations, said Jim Steiner, Grbac's agent, was seeking a five-year contract averaging $8 million a year, including a $20 million signing bonus.
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"We believe that to be excessive, even for the quarterback position," Peterson said in a prepared statement. "We were well aware that this is all part of the process of free agency, which is why we took steps as early as last year to sign veteran Todd Collins to an extension. We have also been looking at other options regarding the quarterback position for 2001 and beyond."
Among those options is a possible trade with St. Louis for backup Trent Green, who came to the Rams in 1999 at the urging of Dick Vermeil, the new Chiefs coach.
The Rams reportedly are seeking first-and second-round draft picks for Green. Peterson said the club also would examine the free agent market for quarterbacks.

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It seems clear that EG was due the money, but KC didn't want to build around their PB QB. So they ended up paying similar money to Green and also sacrificed a precious #1 draft pick.

Its all water under the bridge, but as the years roll by, its pretty clear that Carl was trying lure DV out of retirement to coach the Chiefs and that one of DV's prerequisites was the Martz scheme and TG as QB. I won't defend Grbac's greed, but the choice to unload a PB QB was stupid. Green was a very good QB, but give Grbac Holmes, Kennison, LJ and Dante Hall and I bet looks pretty good, too.

Mecca
04-27-2008, 06:07 PM
Lets put it this way if Croyle has a bad year this team will have the #1 pick..you know what that leads to.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 06:10 PM
Lets put it this way if Croyle has a bad year this team will have the #1 pick..you know what that leads to.

That's actually a VERY good point, Mecca. I hadn't thought of that. Although next year's QB class is purported to be much thinner than '08's...

Mecca
04-27-2008, 06:12 PM
Yea right now it is.....someone may emerge someone may not, either way I can right now name off atleast 10 elite prospects for next years class.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 06:14 PM
Yea right now it is.....someone may emerge someone may not, either way I can right now name off atleast 10 elite prospects for next years class.

I see us drafting top 5 again next year. If Croyle has even an average season, I don't see us drfating a franchise QB unless Clark Hunt gets directly involved.

J Diddy
04-27-2008, 06:14 PM
Lets put it this way if Croyle has a bad year this team will have the #1 pick..you know what that leads to.


we trade it for the rights to brett favre?

:shrug:

tk13
04-27-2008, 06:15 PM
Before last year's draft everyone thought Brohm was the surefire #1 guy this year, and he barely made it into the 2nd round. So much changes in a season... some people will drop off and some unexpected QB's will probably blossom.

Either way, you still aren't evaluating Croyle or any other QB without putting better talent around him. You don't have to wait to have an All-Star team, but a team like last year's just won't cut it.

Ari Chi3fs
04-27-2008, 06:16 PM
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6435/kelli2zf3.jpg

DaneMcCloud
04-27-2008, 06:19 PM
Either way, you still aren't evaluating Croyle or any other QB without putting better talent around him. You don't have to wait to have an All-Star team, but a team like last year's just won't cut it.

While that *may* be true, Croyle most certainly could have made better decisions. And there's no way he can run from his injury history (high school, college and now the NFL).

Personally, I don't know why Croyle didn't hire a nutritionist and hit the gym this off-season in hopes of putting on at least 10-15 pounds of muscle on his scrawny frame.

Frazod
04-27-2008, 06:20 PM
I'm thrilled we didn't pick a QB. Now Croyle has a season to prove his worth. If he doesn't, pull the trigger next year.

Mecca
04-27-2008, 06:20 PM
Yea ok guys I get it Croyles wife has a really awesome boob job, but her titties don't throw passes.

Anyong Bluth
04-27-2008, 06:22 PM
Green Bay took quite a number of QB's- if Brody has a bad year and Rodgers turns out to be fine for GB, I'd rather try and grab him than anyone in next year's draft....

Anyong Bluth
04-27-2008, 06:23 PM
Oh and hopefully the line is vastly improved to actually give him some protection. We do have a pretty large group of guys now, all but 1 is over 320.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 06:24 PM
Croyle did OK last year with the following:


Worst pass protect in NFL (T-last, 55 sacks allowed);
Worst rushing attack in NFL (78 YPG);
Complex Coryell playbook;
Inexperienced OC/signal caller (Solari);
This year he'll have:


Better OL;
Improved rushing attack;
Simplified, athlete-friendly playbook;
Veteran OC/signal caller Chan Gailey.I think the reason KC did not draft a QB is because they think Croyle has what it takes to win in this scheme.

tk13
04-27-2008, 06:25 PM
While that *may* be true, Croyle most certainly could have made better decisions. And there's no way he can run from his injury history (high school, college and now the NFL).

Personally, I don't know why Croyle didn't hire a nutritionist and hit the gym this off-season in hopes of putting on at least 10-15 pounds of muscle on his scrawny frame.
I think we barely scratched the surface in evaluating Croyle. We were last in the league in sacks, and at the bottom in rushing yards. There is not a single QB prospect in football you could put in that situation and evaluate him. He did some good things and some things that aren't too good.... but you have to give him something to work with.

There isn't much you can take away from last year... I don't care about his injury history, he has one, and it's a concern, but any QB we put back there that gets sacked 50+ times will get injured. And will fail.

JBucc
04-27-2008, 06:27 PM
Even if we drafted a QB, I would have liked him to sit this year. We're still going to have some growing pains with our o-line. They're not going to become all pros overnight ya know? Especially since some are making position switches.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 08:38 PM
I don't think the Santos signing is a serious challenge to Croyle's position on the depth chart.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 08:42 PM
I think the reason KC did not draft a QB is because they think Croyle has what it takes to win in this scheme.


The only QB they liked was Ryan. Since he was gone, they drafted for value over need. (they needed everything anyways)

Smart decision.

I still dont believe in Croyle, but i hope he proves me wrong.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 08:46 PM
The only QB they liked was Ryan. Since he was gone, they drafted for value over need.

Smart decision.

I still dont believe in Croyle, but i hope he proves me wrong.

I think they realize that SB teams are built around franchise QBs with few exceptions. Not drafting a QB nor acquiring one in FA signals either

(a) They are satisfied to build around Croyle;

(b) They are trying to build without a cornerstone.

This draft is a defacto vote of confidence in Croyle.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 08:50 PM
I think they realize that SB teams are built around franchise QBs with few exceptions. Not drafting a QB nor acquiring one in FA signals either

(a) They are satisfied to build around Croyle;

(b) They are trying to build without a cornerstone.

This draft is a defacto vote of confidence in Croyle.


They are trying to build the infrastructure up around the QB first. Smart.

Croyle gets the vote of confidence for this year at least. Thats smart too. Let him run the show and lets see what hes got.

keg in kc
04-27-2008, 08:57 PM
I still say it's less a vote of confidence in croyle than a vote of no-confidence in the draft class. Croyle's fortunate, because despite doing absolutely nothing with his first shot - and let's face it: line or no line, he couldn't beat out a career backup last camp... - he gets another opportunity.

Hopefully his experience last season will result in some forward growth.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 08:57 PM
They are trying to build the infrastructure up around the QB first. Smart.

Croyle gets the vote of confidence for this year at least. Thats smart too. Let him run the show and lets see what hes got.

Didn't Aikman go 1-15 in his 1st year as a starter? And IIRC Brodie's #s were better than Elway's first year as a starter. Neither of those HOFers looked like championship QBs in the beginning.

This draft surrounds Brodie with young talent and a new and very experienced OC. I think Croyle will finish with #s close to this:

Compl %: 55%
Passing Yards: 3300
TDs: 16
INTs: 18

He looked very poised against the defending SB champion Colts in Indy and nearly pulled off a huge upset. That's the Croyle in my mind this off-season.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 08:58 PM
I still say it's less a vote of confidence in croyle than a vote of no-confidence in the draft class. Croyle's fortunate, because despite doing absolutely nothing with his first shot - and let's face it: line or no line, he couldn't beat out a career backup last camp... - he gets another opportunity.

Hopefully his experience last season will result in some forward growth.

A career backup for Dan Marino, Tom Brady and Trent Green.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 08:59 PM
Didn't Aikman go 1-15 in his 1st year as a starter? And IIRC Brodie's #s were better than Elway's first year as a starter. Neither of those HOFers looked like championship QBs in the beginning.

This draft surrounds Brodie with young talent and a new and very experienced OC. I think Croyle will finish with #s close to this:

Compl %: 55%
Passing Yards: 3300
TDs: 16
INTs: 18

He looked very poised against the defending SB champion Colts in Indy and nearly pulled off a huge upset. That's the Croyle in my mind this off-season.

If he doesnt progress, he will easily be replaced next year. The Chiefs have very little invested in him money wise.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 09:02 PM
If he doesnt progress, he will easily be replaced next year. The Chiefs have very little invested in him money wise.

I don't doubt it, but it makes very little sense. Why rebuild around a guy who is not going to be the guy?

Next year's draft class features a bunch of guys who run the shotgun/spread type O. Fat chance of us going to a NE-type scheme. I wouldn't want that type of scheme in KC either.

As far as FAs, would Clark let Carl obtain another journeyman QB? Would we sacrifice a #1 pick for an established NFL QB again?

Brock
04-27-2008, 09:07 PM
They're not rebuilding "around" anyone. Croyle gets one more chance, that's all. I doubt he lasts 6 games.

Coach
04-27-2008, 09:09 PM
I wonder if Ryan was their first choice, and since he was already taken, they took Dorsey. IIRC, didn't they said that Dorsey wasn't their top choice at the time?

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 09:12 PM
As far as FAs, would Clark let Carl obtain another journeyman QB? Would we sacrifice a #1 pick for an established NFL QB again?

I could see them targeting another teams backup. Like a Trent Green, or Elvis Grbac. Remember those guys were fairly young still with not a whole lot of starting experience when they came here.

Same type as Hasselback or Matt Schuab.


Hmmmm.....Brady Quinn?? :)

keg in kc
04-27-2008, 09:13 PM
I wonder if Ryan was their first choice, and since he was already taken, they took Dorsey. IIRC, didn't they said that Dorsey wasn't their top choice at the time?Metrosports reported last night that Dorsey was 2nd on their board behind McFadden.

Deberg_1990
04-27-2008, 09:13 PM
I wonder if Ryan was their first choice, and since he was already taken, they took Dorsey

Id be willing to bet all my Casino Cash that was the case.

TEX
04-27-2008, 09:13 PM
They're not rebuilding "around" anyone. Croyle gets one more chance, that's all. I doubt he lasts 6 games.

Yep. IMO, he won't even be on the roster in 2 years.

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 09:33 PM
They're not rebuilding "around" anyone. Croyle gets one more chance, that's all. I doubt he lasts 6 games.

We'll see this October, won't we?

I'm on the record saying Croyle will make a strong stride forward in '08 with his new OL, better rushing attack and Chan Gailey calling the plays. The Chiefs will only draft a QB in '09 if Croyle has chronic, significant health challenges. He will easily achieve success commensurate with Rivers, Cultler and Russell. He may be better than Russell.

Brock
04-27-2008, 09:35 PM
He will easily achieve success commensurate with Rivers, Cultler and Russell. He may be better than Russell.

Extreme homerism. ROFL

keg in kc
04-27-2008, 09:36 PM
The important question is...can he grow a beard?

Coach
04-27-2008, 09:38 PM
Metrosports reported last night that Dorsey was 2nd on their board behind McFadden.

If true, the Raiders did us a big favor by taking McFadden. I would have been pissed if we picked McFadden over Gholston or Ellis, if Dorsey was already gone.

TEX
04-27-2008, 09:40 PM
We'll see this October, won't we?

I'm on the record saying Croyle will make a strong stride forward in '08 with his new OL, better rushing attack and Chan Gailey calling the plays. The Chiefs will only draft a QB in '09 if Croyle has chronic, significant health challenges. He will easily achieve success commensurate with Rivers, Cultler and Russell. He may be better than Russell.

Wearing those glasses again KCJ...:rolleyes:

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 09:44 PM
Wearing those glasses again KCJ...:rolleyes:

I won't apologize for loyalty to my alltime favorite sports team. We made household names out of undrafted/low-drafted guys like Kimble Anders, Tony Richardson, Dave Szott, Jared Allen, etc...

That's the fun of being a fan.

Coach
04-27-2008, 09:50 PM
Wearing those glasses again KCJ...:rolleyes:

No, I can see his point of view. Will Croyle struggle? Probably so, because that he's techically still a rookie, and that he'll have new starters upfront, again.

But the talent around him should be improved (much) than the talent that was in the last six games of the 07 season.

And Gailey should be an improvement over Solari, without a doubt. I mean, JFC, you seen his photo? It looks really 'special'

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/SwedeCarlson/Chiefs/Chiefs%20Smack%20or%20Hate/solariisNuroffenss.png

KCJohnny
04-27-2008, 09:52 PM
No, I can see his point of view. Will Croyle struggle? Probably so, because that he's techically still a rookie, and that he'll have new starters upfront, again.

But the talent around him should be improved (much) than the talent that was in the last six games of the 07 season.

And Gailey should be an improvement over Solari, without a doubt. I mean, JFC, you seen his photo? It looks really 'special'



Thanks, Tex. Having Charles' speedy wheels and cuts in on that draw play won't hurt a bit. Old timers will recall Todd McNair having a guady 6 ypc avg in the early 90s as a 3rd down back. Great receiver, too.

Frankie
04-27-2008, 10:29 PM
Like I said earlier, I think Brady Quinn will be looking to get out of Cleveland someday.

Or maybe Rogers out of Green Bay.

Frankie
04-27-2008, 10:30 PM
Would you give up a #1 in '09 for Quinn?

No. He is over-rated.

Frankie
04-27-2008, 10:38 PM
Lets put it this way if Croyle has a bad year this team will have the #1 pick..you know what that leads to.

Oher. ;)

Frankie
04-27-2008, 10:47 PM
I wonder if Ryan was their first choice, and since he was already taken, they took Dorsey. IIRC, didn't they said that Dorsey wasn't their top choice at the time?

They said the top two players on their board were McFadden and Dorsey.

Coach
04-27-2008, 10:49 PM
They said the top two players on their board were McFadden and Dorsey.

And like I said earlier, I'm glad the Raiders picked McFadden.

Frankie
04-27-2008, 10:56 PM
I'm really on Croyle's bandwagon and hope he makes a lot of sniff'n'toss fans eat crow. Having said that I wish I were reading an article or two about how he is hitting the gym this off-season to gain about 15 pounds of muscle.

Rausch
04-27-2008, 10:58 PM
No. He is over-rated.

You tell me. Is he better or worse than Ryan?

Who would you be willing to pick higher?...

BigChiefFan
04-27-2008, 11:02 PM
I'm really on Croyle's bandwagon and hope he makes a lot of sniff'n'toss fans eat crow. Having said that I wish I were reading an article or two about how he is hitting the gym this off-season to gain about 15 pounds of muscle. I wish I could say I see it in Croyle, but I don't. He's erratic as hell at times and hasn't shown any poise in the pocket. He also tends to force things. I think we'll be looking for his replacement after this upcoming season. He's undersized and besides have a cannon for an arm I wouldn't exactly call him accurate. He seems like a good kid, but I regretfully don't see him as our long-term franchise QB.

keg in kc
04-27-2008, 11:03 PM
You tell me. Is he better or worse than Ryan?

Who would you be willing to pick higher?...Ryan, in about 0.00001 seconds. I've never seen Quinn as anything special.

As for trading for him, the dude went 22nd last year. No way in hell I'd give up a first round pick in '09, after he's rotted on the bench for two years gaining (presumably) no meaningful NFL experience. Particularly a high first rounder. Whether it's his fault or not, the situation in Cleveland isn't raising his value...

If Anderson gets hurts and he lights it up, different story.

Maybe it ends up being a situation like SD with Brees and Rivers down the line.

Frankie
04-28-2008, 07:22 AM
You tell me. Is he better or worse than Ryan?

Who would you be willing to pick higher?...

It's too early to know. Last year this time nobody looked any good for the 08 draft except Brohm. QBs emerge every year. I hope it won't be our problem next year anyway. I just don't like Quinn that much because I saw him in a couple of games and wasn't impressed.

Frankie
04-28-2008, 07:27 AM
I wish I could say I see it in Croyle, but I don't. He's erratic as hell at times and hasn't shown any poise in the pocket. He also tends to force things. I think we'll be looking for his replacement after this upcoming season. He's undersized and besides have a cannon for an arm I wouldn't exactly call him accurate. He seems like a good kid, but I regretfully don't see him as our long-term franchise QB.

He was given a knives to go to machinegun fights. Show me one person who would be poised in that situation. When 6 0r 7 D-players are in your face the moment the ball is snapped your accuracy and consistancy is in the shitter.

Extra Point
04-28-2008, 07:58 AM
QB's Anthony Morelli from Penn State and Paul Smith from Tulsa went undrafted; either deserve a look at the #3 or the PS.

NUMBER7
04-28-2008, 07:58 AM
I'm really on Croyle's bandwagon and hope he makes a lot of sniff'n'toss fans eat crow. Having said that I wish I were reading an article or two about how he is hitting the gym this off-season to gain about 15 pounds of muscle.

The only thing I see Croyle hitting in the off season is his wife. He is still going to be a paper-mache target this year.

DaKCMan AP
04-28-2008, 08:12 AM
He set some Michigan passing records and UM QBs have a long track record of success at starting QBs in the NFL.

Ok, everyone knows Tom Brady and I'll even give Jim Harbaugh, but really?

John Navarre
Drew Henson
Brian Griese
Todd Collins
Elvis Grbac

Color me unimpressed.

boogblaster
04-28-2008, 08:30 AM
Croyle has to step-up this year or he's not going to make the grade ....

DaKCMan AP
04-28-2008, 08:33 AM
Croyle has to step-up this year or he's not going to make the grade ....

Brilliant insight.

Frankie
04-28-2008, 08:34 AM
The only thing I see Croyle hitting in the off season is his wife. He is still going to be a paper-mache target this year.

You remember those comments. I'm not saying you'll have to eat them. But just keep'em warmed up.

Sully
04-28-2008, 08:34 AM
Croyle has to step-up this year or we'll have to find some other excuse why he's failed, other than his own shortcomings (and bones of balsa).

FYP

KCJohnny
04-28-2008, 09:39 AM
Ok, everyone knows Tom Brady and I'll even give Jim Harbaugh, but really?

John Navarre
Drew Henson
Brian Griese
Todd Collins
Elvis Grbac

Color me unimpressed.

All but Navarre and Henson have started in playoff games in the NFL.

I like Henne and I think he will succeed in the NFL.

I like Croyle with Chan Gailey at the helm and I think the added talent on O and the new OC will do wonders for Mr. Croyle.

KCJohnny
04-28-2008, 03:08 PM
He was given a knives to go to machinegun fights. Show me one person who would be poised in that situation. When 6 0r 7 D-players are in your face the moment the ball is snapped your accuracy and consistancy is in the shitter.

Exactly. This year he'll at least have an M4 Carbine Assault Rifle with a Close Combat Optical.
:bang: