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Count Zarth
05-01-2008, 08:26 PM
You know, I was just thinking, Flowers is potentially a big upgrade from Ty Law.

Last year, Ty Law:

1. Got abused by running backs on the edge
2. Had to surrender enormous cushions to receivers when he was in man coverage
3. Couldn't run with anyone
4. Had great instincts, so he wasn't a total loser

This year, Flowers:

1. Abuses running backs on the edge
2. Isn't Deion Sanders, but certainly doesn't run a 4.7 40-yard dash.
3. Can run with most receivers most likely, barring the Randy Mosses of the world.
4. Comes out of college with pretty good instincts, a bonus to this other stuff.

Am I totally insane or are we going to be better off with Flowers on the edge instead of Law?

Deberg_1990
05-01-2008, 08:30 PM
Can we wait till Flowers has multiple Pro-Bowls and Super Bowls like Law before we "Crown" him please??

milkman
05-01-2008, 08:32 PM
Can we wait till Flowers has multiple Pro-Bowls and Super Bowls like Law before we "Crown" him please??

Flowers may never be as good as Law once was, but he has the potential to be better than Law ever was as a Chief.

Buehler445
05-01-2008, 08:37 PM
Depends on the pass rush.

He'll probably make some rookie mistakes, but overall, HELL YES he will be better than Law. Maybe not against Manning though. I don't know what he does against Manning, but it is brutally beautiful.

chiefs1111
05-01-2008, 09:06 PM
Flowers may never be as good as Law once was, but he has the potential to be better than Law ever was as a Chief.

Agreed, watching Law with the chiefs was really unbearable... I am really excited to see this guy play though

TEX
05-01-2008, 09:07 PM
Depends on the pass rush.

Yep. And we won't have one this year.

Count Zarth
05-01-2008, 09:08 PM
Agreed, watching Law with the chiefs was really unbearable... I am really excited to see this guy play though

I'm not even going to put him in the defensive highlights this year...Tuck Fy Law!

Mecca
05-01-2008, 09:09 PM
Law was just an example of what happens to guys at that position when they get old....which means Surtain will probably look like that this year, I hope to god this is his last year on the team.

milkman
05-01-2008, 09:11 PM
Yep. And we won't have one this year.

I disagree.

Dorsey will get an interior push, which will make whoever lines up at DE more effective.

In spite of Allen's 15.5 sacks, there were huge portions of games that we never sniffed the QB.

Having that inside push will actually provide a more consistent overall rush, even if no one individual puts up big numbers.

Count Zarth
05-01-2008, 09:11 PM
Law was just an example of what happens to guys at that position when they get old....which means Surtain will probably look like that this year, I hope to god this is his last year on the team.

I'm not sure he's even going to start. There's been a lot of talk of moving him to the slot, where he's still quick enough to make a difference. Lost his speed though.

Damn did we piss away a lot of money on Law and Surtain.

Mecca
05-01-2008, 09:13 PM
I almost think they'd be better off just walking on Surtain at this point.....he makes alot of money to not do much...and he's old.

Either way after this season I don't wanna see Surtain, McIntosh, Harris or Edwards on this team, those guys are all older and crappy.

Mr. Kotter
05-01-2008, 09:13 PM
Flowers has a shot to be very good....but you won't be able to seriously compare him to (a young) Ty Law, until he has at least a year or two under his belt. Experience and game time...will show us whether or not he possesses the instincts, nose for the ball, and tenacity that Law demonstrated....especially, early in his career.

milkman
05-01-2008, 09:14 PM
I almost think they'd be better off just walking on Surtain at this point.....he makes alot of money to not do much...and he's old.

Either way after this season I don't wanna see Surtain, McIntosh, Harris or Edwards on this team, those guys are all older and crappy.

Agreed.

Count Zarth
05-01-2008, 09:14 PM
I almost think they'd be better off just walking on Surtain at this point.....he makes alot of money to not do much...and he's old.


I think he's taking a pay cut.

Count Zarth
05-01-2008, 09:15 PM
Flowers has a shot to be very good....but you won't be able to seriously compare him to (a young) Ty Law, until he has at least a year or two under his belt. Experience and game time...will show us whether or not he possesses the instincts, nose for the ball, and tenacity that Law demonstrated....especially, early in his career.

I'm not talking about a young Ty Law. Only the washed up, slow-as-molasses Ty Law we suffered watching last year.

Mecca
05-01-2008, 09:17 PM
Well hey atleast when the Chiefs play this year we won't hear this every single game "this is one of the oldest teams in football" "this teams starters are some of the oldest in the league"

Deberg_1990
05-01-2008, 09:17 PM
Either way after this season I don't wanna see Surtain, McIntosh, Harris or Edwards on this team, those guys are all older and crappy.

Do you think they should have kept Kawika over signing Harris? Or was that pretty much a wash?

SNR
05-01-2008, 09:17 PM
I'm hoping Brackenridge plays lights out this year. I know the coaches have kind of relegated him to permanent nickel corner, but his good play would make our pass D near the top.

Count Zarth
05-01-2008, 09:18 PM
I'm hoping Brackenridge plays lights out this year. I know the coaches have kind of relegated him to permanent nickel corner, but his good play would make our pass D near the top.

Don't forget about Dimitri Patterson. The coaching staff is really high on Patterson and Brack, otherwise they wouldn't have let Sapp go so easy.

Mecca
05-01-2008, 09:18 PM
Do you think they should have kept Kawika over signing Harris? Or was that pretty much a wash?

Not much difference.....I'd rather have someone who's not either one of them.

chiefbowe82
05-01-2008, 09:28 PM
to bad we dumped mitchell and tynes and paid ty law loads..nice work herm

Basileus777
05-01-2008, 09:32 PM
Who cares about losing Mitchell. He's a poor MLB and an average to above average OLB. Just because Harris isn't any good doesn't mean that letting Mitchell walk was a mistake.

milkman
05-01-2008, 09:34 PM
to bad we dumped mitchell and tynes and paid ty law loads..nice work herm

Signing Law was a mistake, but letting Mitchell and Tynes go wasn't.

Mitchell sucked as a cover two MLB, and Tynes was inconsistent.

He redeemed himself in that playoff game last year, but he missed earlier attempts that could have won that game in GB before the OT.

Mr. Kotter
05-01-2008, 09:35 PM
Who cares about losing Mitchell. He's a poor MLB and an average to above average OLB. Just because Harris isn't any good doesn't mean that letting Mitchell walk was a mistake.

Mitchell didn't fit OUR scheme; but he's an above average NFL LB IMHO though.

I bet the "World Champion" Giants would've liked to have resigned him....

:hmmm:

milkman
05-01-2008, 09:37 PM
Mitchell didn't fit OUR scheme; but he's an above average NFL LB IMHO though.

I bet the "World Champion" Giants would've liked to have resigned him....

:hmmm:

Don't know.

I don't think the contract he signed with Buffalo was all that pricey, so if the Giants were really hoping to re-sign him, they probably could have gotten it done.

Basileus777
05-01-2008, 09:40 PM
Just because Mitchell played for the Giants and won the Superbowl doesn't mean that he's anything more than average. He was solid for them, but was also a liability in coverage most of the year, I know, I get to see the Giants play every week.

And like you said, he isn't a fit for our scheme.

Mecca
05-01-2008, 09:46 PM
Just because Mitchell played for the Giants and won the Superbowl doesn't mean that he's anything more than average. He was solid for them, but was also a liability in coverage most of the year, I know, I get to see the Giants play every week.

And like you said, he isn't a fit for our scheme.

Some people will never understand scheme fits........notice the people who think Dan Connor should have been picked by our team.

Basileus777
05-01-2008, 09:51 PM
Some people will never understand scheme fits........notice the people who think Dan Connor should have been picked by our team.

Interestingly enough, according to Kuharich, they actually considered taking Connor instead of Charles.

Mecca
05-01-2008, 09:56 PM
Interestingly enough, according to Kuharich, they actually considered taking Connor instead of Charles.

Probably because everyone "assumed" he'd go in the early 2nd round, fact is he's limited. He was an outstanding college player and will make a solid pro player in a d like Carolina has but in cover 2 there's just no way.

He's a bigger guy that is stiff in coverage and not very fast....Dan Connor is Paul Pozsluzny with less athletic ability. Poz can play up in Buffalo in the cover 2 because all of his speed/agility tests were so much better than Connors and he also is far less stiff and swings his hips 100 times better.

cdcox
05-01-2008, 10:08 PM
If you look at Kuharich's interview closely, there was a strong need component on all of the picks. For example the Chiefs were locked into OL, CB, DL over the first 3 picks. I think our needs just broke in such a way that it appeared as if we were going BPA when in reality they were going strongly by need. It just so happened that we had a ton of needs this year. Once the Chiefs decide we don't have so many needs, we'll be back to shitty drafts.

Basileus777
05-01-2008, 10:19 PM
If you look at Kuharich's interview closely, there was a strong need component on all of the picks. For example the Chiefs were locked into OL, CB, DL over the first 3 picks. I think our needs just broke in such a way that it appeared as if we were going BPA when in reality they were going strongly by need. It just so happened that we had a ton of needs this year. Once the Chiefs decide we don't have so many needs, we'll be back to shitty drafts.

There is always a strong need component for picks. As much as we like to pimp BPA, no team ignores need.

But Kuharich also spoke of taking players that were the highest rated on their board.

"It was easy, because we went by our board," Kuharich said. "Charles was our highest-rated player at a position we had not picked.We've had alot of holes before, but our front office always managed to reach for players. Yet in this draft we got great value for all of our picks.

Mecca
05-01-2008, 10:23 PM
If they had taken players for straight need Charles and Morgan likely wouldn't have been picked by this team, notice the people on this board that had a fit about the 3rd round?

Sofa King Pimp
05-01-2008, 10:25 PM
I'm not sure he's even going to start. There's been a lot of talk of moving him to the slot, where he's still quick enough to make a difference. Lost his speed though.

Damn did we piss away a lot of money on Law and Surtain.

I was happy we got both guys. Of course I'm not an NFL GM or anything.

cdcox
05-01-2008, 10:35 PM
"It was easy, because we went by our board," Kuharich said. "Charles was our highest-rated player at a position we had not picked. "


If we could have got a stud OL, DT or CB that was rated better than Charles, I would not have complained in the least. I'm not complaining about Charles, but I'm also not naive enough to think that we only needed one player at these positions or that every pick will pan out. If they had some one rated higher, they should have taken him.

kcchiefsus
05-01-2008, 10:56 PM
Can we wait till Flowers has multiple Pro-Bowls and Super Bowls like Law before we "Crown" him please??

And did Law go to any of those pro bowls or super bowls as a Chief? Exactly. We're not comparing Flowers to what Law did as a Chief, not Law's career.

kcchiefsus
05-01-2008, 11:00 PM
Law was just an example of what happens to guys at that position when they get old....which means Surtain will probably look like that this year, I hope to god this is his last year on the team.

I doubt it. Surtain has always been a faster player than Law. Law was always slow to begin with so him aging hurt him more than other players. Guys like Al Harris and Charles Woodson are as old as or older than Surtain and neither have shown signs of slowing down despite playing mostly man coverage and being on an island most of the time.

Count Zarth
05-01-2008, 11:08 PM
I doubt it. Surtain has always been a faster player than Law. Law was always slow to begin with so him aging hurt him more than other players. Guys like Al Harris and Charles Woodson are as old as or older than Surtain and neither have shown signs of slowing down despite playing mostly man coverage and being on an island most of the time.

Dude, watch a game from last year. Surtain is slow now.

Pitt Gorilla
05-01-2008, 11:49 PM
Build through the draft. Trading a 2nd rounder for Surtain and giving him a fat contract didn't help. Signing Harris to big money didn't help.

chiefs1111
05-02-2008, 12:00 AM
Well hey atleast when the Chiefs play this year we won't hear this every single game "this is one of the oldest teams in football" "this teams starters are some of the oldest in the league"

Yeah,I just wish they would of started doing this in Herms first year here instead of waiting till now..

Count Zarth
05-02-2008, 12:01 AM
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/656205.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19332EFD823EFD41CFDF5EE8C2AB88D8DF8284831B75F48EF45Yeah,I just wish they would of started doing this in Herms first year here instead of waiting till now..

chiefs1111
05-02-2008, 12:07 AM
I doubt it. Surtain has always been a faster player than Law. Law was always slow to begin with so him aging hurt him more than other players. Guys like Al Harris and Charles Woodson are as old as or older than Surtain and neither have shown signs of slowing down despite playing mostly man coverage and being on an island most of the time.

Honestly,I wish we would have been able to get rid of both Law and Surtain in the off season..... I remember when we first acquired him from the dolphins,I was freaking jumping for joy. What a waste he turned out to be

melbar
05-02-2008, 12:08 AM
I still think the only pick I have a problem with is Cottam. He may develop into a great player for us, but I still would have liked someone like Doucet in that spot. I think at this point it looks like he would have had greater potential to have a positive impact on our team.

ChiefsCountry
05-02-2008, 12:34 AM
I still think the only pick I have a problem with is Cottam. He may develop into a great player for us, but I still would have liked someone like Doucet in that spot. I think at this point it looks like he would have had greater potential to have a positive impact on our team.

Doubt it. Dunn was way more important to this team than any slot receiver. Cottam has the potental to be way better than Dunn as a receiver and blocker.

Rausch
05-02-2008, 01:18 AM
He was a low 2nd standard 4-3 corner but he's a standout cover2 guy.

He might lack long distance speed but he's got Taco's "burst" and he's a tackler. Very physical and he plays the ball.

I love the pick. Loved him being there where he was on draft day.

Rausch
05-02-2008, 01:20 AM
Doubt it. Dunn was way more important to this team than any slot receiver.

Before he started piling up the injuries. Dominating blocker.


Cottam has the potental to be way better than Dunn as a receiver and blocker.

As a receiver, yes. As a blocker...not likely. Dunn is one of the best blocking TE's I've seen...

Mecca
05-02-2008, 01:21 AM
Yeah,I just wish they would of started doing this in Herms first year here instead of waiting till now..

That's great in theory but this fan base would have gone apeshit if Herm had dismantled a team that nearly made the playoffs.

Rausch
05-02-2008, 01:26 AM
That's great in theory but this fan base would have gone apeshit if Herm had dismantled a team that nearly made the playoffs.

DV did the exact same thing.

Not only did he dump a team that barely missed the playoffs (I think Seattle won it that year) but he let a (then) probowl alternate QB go to the Ravens.

About year 3 it payed off.

I'm not willing to wait that long. We signed Carl/Herm to a 4 year deal. They knew that going in. If they can't meet the expectations in year 4 they should go.

I don't want to hear this bull$#it about rebuilding in year 3 of a 4 year deal. NO ONE MADE THEM WAIT THAT LONG...

kcchiefsus
05-02-2008, 02:31 AM
Before he started piling up the injuries. Dominating blocker.




As a receiver, yes. As a blocker...not likely. Dunn is one of the best blocking TE's I've seen...


What people don't realize is that Dunn came into the NFL with the Eagles as a receiving tight end, or at least as a very capable receiver. But he lost some speed with his injuries so he developed into a dominating blocker. I don't see why Cottam can't develop into a great blocker over time.

penguinz
05-02-2008, 02:37 AM
Yep. And we won't have one this year.You are clueless. We will have a much better pass rush this year because we will have a strong push up the middle for a change.

CoMoChief
05-02-2008, 08:39 AM
Too bad if he goes to a Probowl or 2 before is contract is up, Carl is still here and won't resign him because he will want too much $$$

The prices for CB's these days are eek:

Zouk
05-02-2008, 10:18 AM
If you look at Kuharich's interview closely, there was a strong need component on all of the picks. For example the Chiefs were locked into OL, CB, DL over the first 3 picks. I think our needs just broke in such a way that it appeared as if we were going BPA when in reality they were going strongly by need. It just so happened that we had a ton of needs this year. Once the Chiefs decide we don't have so many needs, we'll be back to shitty drafts.

There is not a single team that does not draft based on need in the modern NFL. Not a single one. Some teams like to shoot the crap with the press and make it look like they don't, but they do. It is impossible not to with the salary cap and the 4 years to unrestricted free agency. I looked at every single 1st or 2nd round pick for every team, and they all meet definite needs (with the possible exception of Mendenhall to the Steelers).

blueballs
05-02-2008, 10:19 AM
He fought the Law and the Law won
just got replaced
Beerman: De-flowered

Pitt Gorilla
05-02-2008, 11:08 AM
Before he started piling up the injuries. Dominating blocker.




As a receiver, yes. As a blocker...not likely. Dunn is one of the best blocking TE's I've seen...I concur. Dunn was an unreal blocker as a TE and he was a pretty solid receiver back in Philly. However, Cottam has the physical talents to be special. He has the size and athleticism to be a great blocker and the speed to develop into a nice receiver. I think he'll be a blocker for a few years and hopefully develop into a receiver down the road.

Deberg_1990
05-02-2008, 11:45 AM
About year 3 it payed off.

I'm not willing to wait that long.

Why not?? Do you want this thing done right, or do you want the patchwork they have been doing for the past 20 years??

Hoover
05-02-2008, 11:52 AM
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Hoover
05-02-2008, 11:54 AM
What people don't realize is that Dunn came into the NFL with the Eagles as a receiving tight end, or at least as a very capable receiver. But he lost some speed with his injuries so he developed into a dominating blocker. I don't see why Cottam can't develop into a great blocker over time.
He had a huge game on Monday night football back in 96. He was a weapon before he got hurt.

Dylan
05-02-2008, 11:56 AM
Ty Law back with the Patriots*?

I heard Law was working out a deal with Belichick's* Patriots* or Dom Capers Patriots* True story.

KCrockaholic
05-02-2008, 12:54 PM
Yep. And we won't have one this year.


dont forget about Tamba, hes gonna put up great numbers now that Jared isnt overshadowing him

KCrockaholic
05-02-2008, 12:56 PM
I concur. Dunn was an unreal blocker as a TE and he was a pretty solid receiver back in Philly. However, Cottam has the physical talents to be special. He has the size and athleticism to be a great blocker and the speed to develop into a nice receiver. I think he'll be a blocker for a few years and hopefully develop into a receiver down the road.

I agree

Brock
05-02-2008, 02:06 PM
I concur. Dunn was an unreal blocker as a TE and he was a pretty solid receiver back in Philly. However, Cottam has the physical talents to be special. He has the size and athleticism to be a great blocker and the speed to develop into a nice receiver. I think he'll be a blocker for a few years and hopefully develop into a receiver down the road.

Jason Dunn was never much of a receiver. 18 catches was his best year.

Buehler445
05-02-2008, 08:57 PM
Jason Dunn was never much of a receiver. 18 catches was his best year.

I saw him make a few fantastic catches. I suspect he was SOOO much better at blocking than receiving that it wasn't an issue.

UteChief
05-02-2008, 09:00 PM
Can we wait till Flowers has multiple Pro-Bowls and Super Bowls like Law before we "Crown" him please??

Come on nothing wrong with a little optimism. Until the season starts anyway.

keg in kc
05-02-2008, 09:28 PM
Little info on Dunn...

1996: Played in all 16 games with 12 starts Recorded 15 receptions for 332 yards (22.1 avg.) with two TDs

1997: Played in 15 games (four starts) despite being slowed by a knee injury suffered during mini-camp Had seven catches for 93 yards (13.3 avg.) and four TDs Started four of the first six contests before seeing his role reduced when the offense went to a three-WR set.

1998: Started 10 games before suffering a season-ending knee injury Registered 18 receptions for 132 yards (7.3 avg.) ...Tore the posterior cruciate ligament in his left knee at Green Bay (11/29) and was subsequently placed on injured reserve on December 1st.


That's his first 3 years in the league...

I'm no expert on the eagles, but my gut tells me they don't draft a guy in the 2nd round (out of Eastern Kentucky, of all places) if all they wanted him to do was block. I think it's safe to say that the shredding of his knees are what ultimately turned him into the guy we saw mauling people here.

And, along similar lines, I don't think they see Cottam, long term, as a blocking TE, either. I'd assume they're expecting him to be an all-around player, more in the modern hybrid mode of Gonzo or Gates...

If he can go a week without tripping over a crack in the sidewalk and injuring himself.

Buehler445
05-02-2008, 09:32 PM
Little info on Dunn...

1996: Played in all 16 games with 12 starts Recorded 15 receptions for 332 yards (22.1 avg.) with two TDs

1997: Played in 15 games (four starts) despite being slowed by a knee injury suffered during mini-camp Had seven catches for 93 yards (13.3 avg.) and four TDs Started four of the first six contests before seeing his role reduced when the offense went to a three-WR set.

1998: Started 10 games before suffering a season-ending knee injury Registered 18 receptions for 132 yards (7.3 avg.) ...Tore the posterior cruciate ligament in his left knee at Green Bay (11/29) and was subsequently placed on injured reserve on December 1st.


That's his first 3 years in the league...

I'm no expert on the eagles, but my gut tells me they don't draft a guy in the 2nd round (out of Eastern Kentucky, of all places) if all they wanted him to do was block. I think it's safe to say that the shredding of his knees are what ultimately turned him into the guy we saw mauling people here.

And, along similar lines, I don't think they see Cottam, long term, as a blocking TE, either. I'd assume they're expecting him to be an all-around player, more in the modern hybrid mode of Gonzo or Gates...

If he can go a week without tripping over a crack in the sidewalk and injuring himself.


Good insight Keg. When I saw his highlights, I didn't see him being nearly the natural receiver TG is. He does have some wheels though. Hopefully he can develop into a force at TE.

keg in kc
05-02-2008, 09:36 PM
Good insight Keg. When I saw his highlights, I didn't see him being nearly the natural receiver TG is. He does have some wheels though. Hopefully he can develop into a force at TE.I notice you say "highlights", plural.

ROFL

He's clearly somebody who was drafted on potential. We'll see where it goes. I didn't 'get' the pick at the time, and I still don't now, but I'm more of a wait and see kind of guy. Hopefully he shows us all whatever it is the scouting staff liked so much...

Buehler445
05-02-2008, 09:44 PM
I notice you say "highlights", plural.

ROFL

He's clearly somebody who was drafted on potential. We'll see where it goes. I didn't 'get' the pick at the time, and I still don't now, but I'm more of a wait and see kind of guy. Hopefully he shows us all whatever it is the scouting staff liked so much...

I'm in the same boat. When I heard 10 starts, my first few sentences wouldn't make it past the filter on here, but hopefully he works out.

I would have rather had that kid from Cal, but I don't know too much about him either, so I'll yield to the professionals.

milkman
05-02-2008, 10:01 PM
I notice you say "highlights", plural.

ROFL

He's clearly somebody who was drafted on potential. We'll see where it goes. I didn't 'get' the pick at the time, and I still don't now, but I'm more of a wait and see kind of guy. Hopefully he shows us all whatever it is the scouting staff liked so much...

That's the thing that bothers me about this pick.

Almost all the other picks since Herman ****ing Edwards has been the HC have been guys that have produced fairly consistently on the college level.

This guy didn't.

All I can say is, they must really love his potential to break from their normal philosophy.

B_Ambuehl
05-02-2008, 10:39 PM
Yeah Cottam was injured FAR too often to be drafted for a blocking TE. He's had something like 5 surgeries in 4 years. He was drafted for his upside.

Interestingly enough last year I was playing my madden franchise and about 8 years into my franchise I drafted a great big 6'7 TE in the 4th round that blocked as well as anyone and can run like the wind. It took some time to develop his pass catching ability, but he eventually did and easily replaced Tony G in my offense. I didn't really like the Cottam pick, but that was kind of funny.