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C-Mac
05-06-2008, 09:13 AM
Chiefs draft helps, but it doesnt fill all the gaps (http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/606945.html)
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star

The Chiefs wanted to help Brodie Croyle stay upright by fixing up their offensive line — but first-round draft pick Branden Albert is the only newcomer of impact up front.
More on the Chiefs
With every sack, every feeble rushing play, every three-and-out series, the Chiefs resolved they would take this offseason to fix their forlorn offense.

They would repair their decrepit offensive line, they would give Brodie Croyle the tools to succeed as an NFL starting quarterback, they would take some of the considerable burden off their overtaxed defense.

Despite the Chiefs’ elation over their recent 12-player draft, their efforts are coming under question.

“You can only do so much in the draft,” said former Washington and Houston general manager Charley Casserly. “It’s still a work in progress. They got better where they could get better.”

Yet it’s difficult — if not impossible — to argue the Chiefs will be better on offense. They do have some reasons for optimism. They traded an offensive coordinator learning on the job, Mike Solari, for a proven veteran, Chan Gailey.

Running back Larry Johnson won’t be a holdout again and — if the law of averages prevails — won’t miss half the season because of a foot injury. Wide receiver Dwayne Bowe could be even better than he was as a rookie.

Elsewhere, the Chiefs appear held together with a lot of wishful thinking. Croyle has yet to win a game or prove he’s a high-quality NFL starter. The offensive line still has holes. The Chiefs are relying on a boost from two third-round draft picks, running back Jamaal Charles and tight end Brad Cottam.

“Can you get everything you want in the draft? No,” Chiefs coach Herm Edwards said. “But we got a lot. We got some tight ends. We think we’re better there. We’ve got another runner. The problem is they’re all young, but that’s OK.”

The offensive line, the source of many ills last year, was to be the focal point. But Branden Albert, the second of two first-round draft picks, is the only newcomer of impact.

Albert will join Brian Waters and Damion McIntosh in the starting lineup. The two other starters will come from a group of journeymen and young players that includes Wade Smith, Herb Taylor, Anthony Alabi, Adrian Jones, Rudy Niswanger and Will Svitek.

They hoped to draft several linemen but wound up with Albert and sixth-round tackle Barry Richardson.

“The best thing they did was stay disciplined in the draft,” Casserly said. “They could have gone and drafted five offensive linemen right off the bat, but if they did that, maybe four of them can’t play. What good does that do for them?

“There was an elite group of offensive linemen in the draft this year. The Chiefs got one of them. That group went faster than anybody thought. So if they would have drafted an offensive lineman in the second round, they would have been getting a third- or fourth-round offensive lineman. They didn’t do that, and they should be commended for that.”

Since late last season, the Chiefs also added Smith as a free agent and Alabi and Jones off waivers. Two of those players could wind up starting.

“It’s not like we haven’t signed some guys that are pretty decent football players,” Gailey said. “Nobody’s proven it yet, but we think they have a chance to help us.

“The one thing Herm and Carl (Peterson, president/general manager) and Bill (Kuharich, vice president of player personnel) didn’t want to do was reach for somebody just because it would have been nice to have another one.”

Bowe, meanwhile, is the Chiefs’ only proven wide receiver.

Their other receivers are Jeff Webb, free-agent addition Devard Darling, former Arena League star Bobby Sippio, Maurice Price, fourth-round pick Will Franklin, sixth-round choice Kevin Robinson and three undrafted free agents.

“Bowe had a good year last year,” Edwards said. “We’ve brought some guys in. We drafted (Will Franklin). (Maurice) Price was a young guy we had hope for last year and he got hurt. We brought in Darling. We have some guys.

“I’m comfortable with the guys we have, but we’ll continue to look. There will be some guys available June 1. If we look at these guys all through (offseason practices) and minicamp and no one has really taken that No. 2 spot and run with it, we might go and bring somebody in.”

The Chiefs have already talked about Charles being the big-play threat at running back that neither Johnson nor Kolby Smith is. They once had similar hopes for Michael Bennett, but that never materialized in large part because of their dependence on Johnson.

For now, the Chiefs sound determined to make Charles part of the plan.

“He can score from anywhere on the field,” Gailey said. “He’s got that kind of speed. And he’s better between the tackles than I think people give him credit for even though he’s only 200 pounds.”

StcChief
05-06-2008, 09:23 AM
first in Print 'em

ChiTown
05-06-2008, 09:42 AM
Meh.

They addressed a bunch of needs with quality players in the draft. I got no problem with that. Rome wasn't built in a day.

I don't excuse them for ****ing up all those previous years, but this is a good start in our rebuild process.

KCChiefsFan88
05-06-2008, 10:00 AM
This is why there is a thing called FREE AGENCY that is another medium to build and improve your team. Jeff Faine and Jake Scott were YOUNG (both 27 years old) offensive linemen that were available in free agency that could have come in and immediately started on the Chiefs offensive line... instead the Chiefs decided to do nothing during free agency and rely completely on the draft, where even Herm in this article admits you can't fill all of your needs through.

I would much rather have a starting offensive line consisting of McIntosh at right tackle, Alberts at left tackle, Faine at center, Waters at left guard and Scott at right guard than the mess the Chiefs currently have now.

kcchiefsus
05-06-2008, 10:07 AM
This is why there is a thing called FREE AGENCY that is another medium to build and improve your team. Jeff Faine and Jake Scott were YOUNG (both 27 years old) offensive linemen that were available in free agency that could have come in and immediately started on the Chiefs offensive line... instead the Chiefs decided to do nothing during free agency and rely completely on the draft, where even Herm in this article admits you can't fill all of your needs through.

I would much rather have a starting offensive line consisting of McIntosh at right tackle, Alberts at left tackle, Faine at center, Waters at left guard and Scott at right guard than the mess the Chiefs currently have now.

What's to say Faine would be any better than Niswanger? Rudy Niswanger did pretty damn good at right guard last year and with his size I think he will be a significant upgrade over Wiegmann.

How about we just see how the guys on our roster develop. Perhaps Herb Taylor develops into the next Jacob Bell at right guard. Similar size and both were collegiate tackles.

banyon
05-06-2008, 10:11 AM
exactly what ive been saying. . ur all a bunch of mel kipper fucccckers

So whose alt is this really?

Frazod
05-06-2008, 10:14 AM
exactly what ive been saying. . ur all a bunch of mel kipper fucccckers

Can somebody please flush this turd? Seriously, enough.

Coogs
05-06-2008, 10:21 AM
What's to say Faine would be any better than Niswanger? Rudy Niswanger did pretty damn good at right guard last year and with his size I think he will be a significant upgrade over Wiegmann.

How about we just see how the guys on our roster develop. Perhaps Herb Taylor develops into the next Jacob Bell at right guard. Similar size and both were collegiate tackles.

Exactly! Mecca has been preaching this whole offseason that you can build (fill out) an O-line from the second day of the draft/free agents. Niswanger and Taylor have a chance to be just what Mecca has been promoting. Here is hoping we have already hit on those second day picks.

ChiTown
05-06-2008, 10:23 AM
Exactly! Mecca has been preaching this whole offseason that you can build (fill out) an O-line from the second day of the draft/free agents. Niswanger and Taylor have a chance to be just what Mecca has been promoting. Here is hoping we have already hit on those second day picks.

Are you really using Mecca as a source? Wow.

recxjake
05-06-2008, 10:26 AM
Rudy is smart...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Niswanger

blueballs
05-06-2008, 10:26 AM
who needs a stellar o-line
whith a cream puff schedule

Coogs
05-06-2008, 10:26 AM
Are you really using Mecca as a source? Wow.

Yeah! Most all of the other guys I read draft tidbits from have quit posting or left the Planet. :sulk:

BigChiefFan
05-06-2008, 10:27 AM
I agree with Teicher we still have many holes to fill, but this is the "Excuse" article to put in the mind of the fans. I like the direction the team is taking, but this is Herm's third year, no more free passes from this clown. You got the players you wanted, now make something happen. No more excuses.

DaKCMan AP
05-06-2008, 10:36 AM
This is why there is a thing called FREE AGENCY that is another medium to build and improve your team. Jeff Faine and Jake Scott were YOUNG (both 27 years old) offensive linemen that were available in free agency that could have come in and immediately started on the Chiefs offensive line... instead the Chiefs decided to do nothing during free agency and rely completely on the draft, where even Herm in this article admits you can't fill all of your needs through.

I would much rather have a starting offensive line consisting of McIntosh at right tackle, Alberts at left tackle, Faine at center, Waters at left guard and Scott at right guard than the mess the Chiefs currently have now.

Predictable response from one of the biggest idiots on this board. They went after Jeff Faine. He signed elsewhere. GET OVER IT. Jake Scott was on the market for a while without garnering much interest. Hell, Indy didn't even want to resign him. But of course since the Chiefs didn't go after him he must be an all-out stud. :rolleyes:

DaKCMan AP
05-06-2008, 10:37 AM
I agree with Teicher we still have many holes to fill, but this is the "Excuse" article to put in the mind of the fans. I like the direction the team is taking, but this is Herm's third year, no more free passes from this clown. You got the players you wanted, now make something happen. No more excuses.

Someone's expectations are out of touch with reality.

Coogs
05-06-2008, 10:39 AM
You got the players you wanted, now make something happen. No more excuses.

Herm or Gun? :D

Chief Chief
05-06-2008, 10:48 AM
Catchy headline.

"Let's State The Obvious" for $800 please, Alex.

BigChiefFan
05-06-2008, 10:57 AM
Someone's expectations are out of touch with reality.
Bullshit. I don't believe the team is ready to make a move, but Herm has had his three years, he CHOSE to stick with the vets-he even did it LAST YEAR. He's run out of excuses. He CHOSE to go this route, nobody forced his hand. He should have chosen this route three years ago. That fact that he didn't shouldn't buy him more time. In fact, quite the contrary, it should show how much he ****ed up in his first two years here. Enough of the free passes. They get PAID to a job, I'm sorry, but complete incompetence his first two years, shouldn't buy him more than this season. These are HIS players, that he CHOSE-it's time to start showing those players are worthy. Herm put himself in this mess.

the Talking Can
05-06-2008, 10:58 AM
This is why there is a thing called FREE AGENCY that is another medium to build and improve your team. Jeff Faine and Jake Scott were YOUNG (both 27 years old) offensive linemen that were available in free agency that could have come in and immediately started on the Chiefs offensive line... instead the Chiefs decided to do nothing during free agency and rely completely on the draft, where even Herm in this article admits you can't fill all of your needs through.

I would much rather have a starting offensive line consisting of McIntosh at right tackle, Alberts at left tackle, Faine at center, Waters at left guard and Scott at right guard than the mess the Chiefs currently have now.

15 years of absolute failure built upon FA acquisitions and you still don't get it...

you True Fans are something else....

Hoover
05-06-2008, 11:04 AM
I love how we all bitch about us not hitting on low round draft picks, but when the team actually is going to play them we all scream bloody hell because we didn't give the spot to some FA who got a bunch of cash.

I think Rudy has either the guard or center spot all wrapped up, thats why we let Wiegmann walk. There is only one real spot open on the line and we have a bunch of guys ready to fight for it. I guess the problem was if we would have drafted a guard in the 3rd he might not have won the job which would have labeled him a BUST on this board.

DaKCMan AP
05-06-2008, 11:04 AM
Bullshit. I don't believe the team is ready to make a move, but Herm has had his three years, he CHOSE to stick with the vets-he even did it LAST YEAR. He's run out of excuses. He CHOSE to go this route, nobody forced his hand. He should have chosen this route three years ago. That fact that he didn't shouldn't buy him more time. In fact, quite the contrary, it should show how much he ****ed up in his first two years here. Enough of the free passes. They get PAID to a job, I'm sorry, but complete incompetence his first two years, shouldn't buy him more than this season. These are HIS players, that he CHOSE-it's time to start showing those players are worthy. Herm put himself in this mess.

I think you CHOOSE to ignore the difference between evaluation of past performance and expectations for this season.

beach tribe
05-06-2008, 11:21 AM
Bullshit. I don't believe the team is ready to make a move, but Herm has had his three years, he CHOSE to stick with the vets-he even did it LAST YEAR. He's run out of excuses. He CHOSE to go this route, nobody forced his hand. He should have chosen this route three years ago. That fact that he didn't shouldn't buy him more time. In fact, quite the contrary, it should show how much he ****ed up in his first two years here. Enough of the free passes. They get PAID to a job, I'm sorry, but complete incompetence his first two years, shouldn't buy him more than this season. These are HIS players, that he CHOSE-it's time to start showing those players are worthy. Herm put himself in this mess.

I don't think you understand that until this 4-12 BS, Hermie was Carl's little bitch boy. Herm tattled to Clark about how Carl wouldn't let him rebuild, and Clark gave him more power realizing that a total rebuild was inevitable.

Fish
05-06-2008, 11:22 AM
Bullshit. I don't believe the team is ready to make a move, but Herm has had his three years, he CHOSE to stick with the vets-he even did it LAST YEAR. He's run out of excuses. He CHOSE to go this route, nobody forced his hand. He should have chosen this route three years ago. That fact that he didn't shouldn't buy him more time. In fact, quite the contrary, it should show how much he ****ed up in his first two years here. Enough of the free passes. They get PAID to a job, I'm sorry, but complete incompetence his first two years, shouldn't buy him more than this season. These are HIS players, that he CHOSE-it's time to start showing those players are worthy. Herm put himself in this mess.

Did you actually believe that Herm would(or could) rebuild the team his first year when the GM clearly thought there was still a chance to "Win now"? Did you expect the head coach to overule the GM immediately and start making changes?

It would be totally different if we actually had started the rebuild Herm's first year.... but we didn't. We went to the playoffs his first year, and most everybody was still hanging on to a shred of hope that we were just a few pieces away from a consistent squad. Then we see on Hard Knocks that the coach wanted to start Croyle and play the young guys, but King Carl still wanted to "Win now". We had to hit rock bottom before the rebuild actually began. And we didn't hit rock bottom until halfway through last season.

Herm didn't choose shit. He slowly put himself in position to get the owner behind the rebuild and get away from Carl's Mediocrity Express, so they could actually get shit done. We're finally seeing the changes that Carl never had the balls to make. We're seeing the rebuild finally come. And I'm sorry you think it should have come 2 years ago, but it didn't. That blame is not all Herm's. Get over it!

InChiefsHell
05-06-2008, 11:34 AM
Ummm...how come I keep hearing about this "easy schedule" that we have...we suck...there is no such thing as an easy schedule...

...I'm sure our opponents are all looking forward to playing us, they've already marked it as a 'W'.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 12:25 PM
Predictable response from one of the biggest idiots on this board. They went after Jeff Faine. He signed elsewhere. GET OVER IT. Jake Scott was on the market for a while without garnering much interest. Hell, Indy didn't even want to resign him. But of course since the Chiefs didn't go after him he must be an all-out stud. :rolleyes:

The fact that he wasn't retained had more to do with the contract he was after than his on-field performance. Bill Polian said the Colts organization would've welcomed him back with "open arms", but he went on to say they wouldn't be early players in free-agency.

And God knows only a stud could improve Guard play here in Kansas City.
:rolleyes:

This line would be infinitely better with a guy like Scott at Guard, but what good would that do this football team?
:rolleyes:

Micjones
05-06-2008, 12:29 PM
15 years of absolute failure built upon FA acquisitions and you still don't get it...

Free agency misses aren't what have this team in this position.
Failures through the draft are.

The best WR, QB, and RB of the last 20 years were all FREE AGENT SIGNINGS.
Roaf? Free Agent. Surtain? Free Agent. Wiegmann? Free Agent.

Stop drinking the "Free Agency is the devil" Kool-Aid.

Fish
05-06-2008, 12:49 PM
Free agency misses aren't what have this team in this position.
Failures through the draft are.

The best WR, QB, and RB of the last 20 years were all FREE AGENT SIGNINGS.
Roaf? Free Agent. Surtain? Free Agent. Wiegmann? Free Agent.

Stop drinking the "Free Agency is the devil" Kool-Aid.

Those failures through the draft are directly related to the continued dependence on veteran free agents.

The fact that the best WR, QB, and RB of the last 20 years were all FREE AGENT SIGNINGS should indicate to you that there was a big flaw in the concept. That isn't the way to build a team. Not these days it isn't. It didn't work for 20 straight years, and it wasn't going to work in year 21. Why would we want to continue with a process that hasn't shown success in 2 decades?


Nobody is saying free agency is the devil. But many people are now saying that we've been misusing free agency for too long, and while it might have brought us some short-term gain this year, it will not help the future of this rebuilding franchise.

Free agency has it's place in the process. But management obviously feels that we're at a point in the process where free agency isn't going to help us rebuild. I happen to agree with them completely.

Coogs
05-06-2008, 12:56 PM
Free agency misses aren't what have this team in this position.
Failures through the draft are.

The best WR, QB, and RB of the last 20 years were all FREE AGENT SIGNINGS.
Roaf? Free Agent. Surtain? Free Agent. Wiegmann? Free Agent.

Stop drinking the "Free Agency is the devil" Kool-Aid.

Wiegmann was from the FA list, but didn't the rest of these guys come from trades? And that would include Green as the best QB over the past 20 years.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 01:01 PM
Those failures through the draft are directly related to the continued dependence on veteran free agents.

I disagree whole-heartedly.
The problem we have with this God awful Offensive Line exists for one reason. Drafting and missing on Defensive Linemen taken high in the draft.

The reason why we needed Dwayne Bowe? Because we hadn't made a real commitment to the Wide Receiver position in almost 10 years. His predecessor, Kennison -- the best Wide Receiver to play in Kansas City in 20 years, was in the twilight of his career. Did I mention that Kennison was a Free Agent?

QB

Green is arguably the best QB to play in Kansas City since Len Dawson.
He was plenty good enough to have won the big game.
Do I think we need to groom our own QB? Absolutely... But don't tell me Free Agency doesn't work. It sure as hell did with Green.

RB

A sure-fire Chiefs Ring of Fame player and the best to ever play his position for this franchise. This argument is failing you.

That isn't the way to build a team.

The way to build a team is to have a balanced approach.
Free Agency...
NFL Draft...

Free agency has it's place in the process. But management obviously feels that we're at a point in the process where free agency isn't going to help us rebuild. I happen to agree with them completely.

They're just scapegoating to avoid taking full blame for their own failings.
Signing young, ascending Free Agents makes sense. Especially when you're trying to rebuild.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 01:04 PM
Wiegmann was from the FA list, but didn't the rest of these guys come from trades? And that would include Green as the best QB over the past 20 years.

You've got it halfway right...
Holmes wasn't acquired through a trade.
Neither was Kennison (if memory serves).

My point is to utilize every option available. Free Agency, Trades (how nice would Vilma have been in this defense?), and the Draft.

keg in kc
05-06-2008, 01:11 PM
Looks like some folks forgot to take their mydol this morning.

Fish
05-06-2008, 01:16 PM
I disagree whole-heartedly.
The problem we have with this God awful Offensive Line exists for one reason. Drafting and missing on Defensive Linemen taken high in the draft.

The reason why we needed Dwayne Bowe? Because we hadn't made a real commitment to the Wide Receiver position in almost 10 years. His predecessor, Kennison -- the best Wide Receiver to play in Kansas City in 20 years, was in the twilight of his career. Did I mention that Kennison was a Free Agent?

Green is arguably the best QB to play in Kansas City since Len Dawson.
He was plenty good enough to have won the big game.
Do I think we need to groom our own QB? Absolutely... But don't tell me Free Agency doesn't work. It sure as hell did with Green.

A sure-fire Chiefs Ring of Fame player and the best to ever play his position for this franchise. This argument is failing you.

The way to build a team is to have a balanced approach.
Free Agency...
NFL Draft...

They're just scapegoating to avoid taking full blame for their own failings.
Signing young, ascending Free Agents makes sense. Especially when you're trying to rebuild.

Mic..... I'm not arguing that those were not great veteran pickups for the Chiefs. They were. But what did those great FAs get us in return?

Freakin zilch. No playoff wins. Nothing. That approach didn't work. We kept reloading with other FAs every offseason hoping we'd finally have those 2 or 3 guys that would get us over the hump. It failed for 2 decades.

How exactly did free agency work with Trent Green? Because he'll be in the ring? Is that the goal? To have guys in the ring? Because that seems like a fairly easy approach if that's the goal. Do you think Trent is satisfied with that? If my argument fails because we had 1 or 2 guys in the Ring of Fame while still not winning any playoff games, then I'm done arguing.

BigChiefFan
05-06-2008, 01:17 PM
Did you actually believe that Herm would(or could) rebuild the team his first year when the GM clearly thought there was still a chance to "Win now"? Did you expect the head coach to overule the GM immediately and start making changes?

It would be totally different if we actually had started the rebuild Herm's first year.... but we didn't. We went to the playoffs his first year, and most everybody was still hanging on to a shred of hope that we were just a few pieces away from a consistent squad. Then we see on Hard Knocks that the coach wanted to start Croyle and play the young guys, but King Carl still wanted to "Win now". We had to hit rock bottom before the rebuild actually began. And we didn't hit rock bottom until halfway through last season.

Herm didn't choose shit. He slowly put himself in position to get the owner behind the rebuild and get away from Carl's Mediocrity Express, so they could actually get shit done. We're finally seeing the changes that Carl never had the balls to make. We're seeing the rebuild finally come. And I'm sorry you think it should have come 2 years ago, but it didn't. That blame is not all Herm's. Get over it!He CHOSE to ACCEPT the job KNOWING the pretenses-it's his team now, evidenced by the roster. I don't expect the team to do well, but that's not my problem. Hermie knew what he was getting into and so did Carl, hence giving up the 4th rounder for Hermie. They've had THREE YEARS to turn this mess around and they haven't. If they don't show major strides in becoming a better team, they need to be canned. This changing horses in mid stream is their CHOICE and a haphazard one at that. I agree with the philosophy, but it's pretty ****ing shortsighted to be JUST NOW starting this, this late in the game, therefore the "Grace" period is gone in my book. Put up or shutup time.

Coogs
05-06-2008, 01:23 PM
You've got it halfway right...
Holmes wasn't acquired through a trade.
Neither was Kennison (if memory serves).

My point is to utilize every option available. Free Agency, Trades (how nice would Vilma have been in this defense?), and the Draft.

I totally agree with using all viable options. But I do think the new philosophy that Clark Hunt is taking is the way to go. I don't think we will be throwing away draft picks like we did in the past for players. That is how the Saints got Vilma. I think our future trades will be more like this season where we trade a player for picks. And the FA big names usually cost way more than they are worth.

Time will tell if Hunt has the right formula to produce championship caliber teams on an anual basis. Our lack of championships under CP watch... which is what you describe.... has failed more often than it has hit. It gave us a few years of hope... but they all came up short.

Coogs
05-06-2008, 01:26 PM
This changing horses in mid stream is their CHOICE and a haphazard one at that. I agree with the philosophy, but it's pretty ****ing shortsighted to be JUST NOW starting this, this late in the game, therefore the "Grace" period is gone in my book. Put up or shutup time.

Ownership of the team changed in the midst of this as well. Lamar was on the end of his life, and maybe wanting the championship. He may not have wanted to sell out to the new philosophy that Clark is adopting.

Hoover
05-06-2008, 01:33 PM
I think all of you are nuts!

The best thing the Chiefs have done is taker a break from signing free agents this year and instead focus on rebuilding through the draft. This was wise because, 1. There were not many top notch FAs to sign, and 2. And the guys we would have liked to grab signed quickly and for top dollar.

Now for those who think we will never sign a top FA again are just crazy. Its fine to go out and get a player, but this team needed a foundation first. It would be like if Phobia was working a house and went out and bought a high dollar kick ass clay tile roof, but the four walls of the house and the foundation were crap. Once the chiefs foundation is soluid I expect them to go out and grab a key piece to the puzzle.

When will that be? It could be as soon as next year. Maybe its a FA DE, QB, or offensive lineman. Who knows, but the number of holes that will need to be addressed will be a lot fewer in the years ahead.

the Talking Can
05-06-2008, 01:37 PM
Free agency misses aren't what have this team in this position.
Failures through the draft are.

The best WR, QB, and RB of the last 20 years were all FREE AGENT SIGNINGS.
Roaf? Free Agent. Surtain? Free Agent. Wiegmann? Free Agent.

Stop drinking the "Free Agency is the devil" Kool-Aid.


yeah, FA did get us in this mess and tied up a lot of money in mediocre players along the way....none of them got us anywhere...sure, our drafts sucked too...there is plenty of room for blame....

we have no business wasting $$$ in FA until we see the fruits of this and likely next years draft...then we can fill the remaining holes - on a young talented team - with some FAs...

there are FA OL every damn year....and people are crying that we didn't give a fat contract to who?...Jeff Faine??

right....

Micjones
05-06-2008, 01:43 PM
Mic..... I'm not arguing that those were not great veteran pickups for the Chiefs. They were. But what did those great FAs get us in return?

Years of quality service time.
You can't demonize the process because the staff chose to ignore the other side of the football.

How exactly did free agency work with Trent Green? Because he'll be in the ring? Is that the goal?

To identify players who will provide you with some of the best service time your franchise will ever enjoy? Absolutely.

If my argument fails because we had 1 or 2 guys in the Ring of Fame while still not winning any playoff games, then I'm done arguing.

Your argument fails because it doesn't take anything else into consideration.
Had we been able to identify talent in the Draft on the defensive side of the football this team would've accomplished more than what they did.

Our failures in the Draft (yesteryear) isn't a reason not to utilize it effectively in the future. The same is true of Free Agency.

Hoover
05-06-2008, 01:43 PM
yeah, FA did get us in this mess and tied up a lot of money in mediocre players along the way....none of them got us anywhere...sure, our drafts sucked too...there is plenty of room for blame....

we have no business wasting $$$ in FA until we see the fruits of this and likely next years draft...then we can fill the remaining holes - on a young talented team - with some FAs...

there are FA OL every damn year....and people are crying that we didn't give a fat contract to who?...Jeff Faine??

right....
Bingo

This draft helped us create a solid foundation on which to build. If it comes together we then can go be players in free agency.

For every Priest Holmes the Chiefs have signed there is a Brent Perriman, Lew Bush, and Carlton Gray. The problem when you miss on a FA is that it haunts you for years to come. Draft your core, then add a piece to the puzzle when its the right guy and they right time.

Chiefnj2
05-06-2008, 01:45 PM
Herm has had a full 3 drafts to work with. Everyone acts like this past offseason was his first year. There should already be a solid foundation if his drafting has been worth a crap.

Hoover
05-06-2008, 01:49 PM
Herm has had a full 3 drafts to work with. Everyone acts like this past offseason was his first year. There should already be a solid foundation if his drafting has been worth a crap.
I like his 3 drafts a lot actually. They are a hell of a lot better than the previous 10 drafts.

keg in kc
05-06-2008, 01:49 PM
You don't build a team with free agency, you build a team in the draft and use free agency to put the last pieces in place. We're not at the 'last pieces' stage yet, and even if we were, this was an extremely weak free agent class. And like it or not, free agency is losing steam, and has been for several years now. Teams either hold on to their best players or trade them off to the highest bidder. Usually all you find on the market now is old, infirm or high risk players, or mid-level talent trying to land high-dollar contracts. Let the buyer beware, in other words.

We're smart to stay out of it this year, whatever the reasoning behind it. And likely when our time comes to put that 'last piece' in place, we won't be doing in through free agency, anyway, we'll be making a trade with someone.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 01:52 PM
yeah, FA did get us in this mess and tied up a lot of money in mediocre players along the way....

If we had hit on half of our Day 1 Draft picks we wouldn't be in this position.
Need I remind you?

we have no business wasting $$$ in FA until we see the fruits of this and likely next years draft...then we can fill the remaining holes - on a young talented team - with some FAs...

Identifying young talented FA's can't be construed as "wasting money".

there are FA OL every damn year....and people are crying that we didn't give a fat contract to who?...Jeff Faine??

Faine was the only Free Agent available?
There weren't affordable FA's available? My mistake...
:rolleyes:

Hoover
05-06-2008, 01:55 PM
I don't think we missed on Hali or Bowe? Turk and Tyler need to be given the opportunity to play and same goes for Pollard.

If you want to be the pissed off "the sky is falling" Chiefs fan have at it dude. I think the majority of us have seen some welcomed change with this franchise over the past year.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 01:57 PM
Bingo

This draft helped us create a solid foundation on which to build. If it comes together we then can go be players in free agency.

We had a foundation before.
Larry Johnson, Kolby Smith, Dwayne Bowe, Jarrad Page, Brodie Croyle (according to some CP posters), Derrick Johnson, Tank Tyler, Claude McBride, Tamba Hali, Rudy Niswanger, Bryan Waters...

We could've had the very same draft even after signing 1-2 Free Agents.
That's no excuse.

For every Priest Holmes the Chiefs have signed there is a Brent Perriman, Lew Bush, and Carlton Gray.

None of which have been on the team in the last 5-7 years.

The problem when you miss on a FA is that it haunts you for years to come.

How much longer are you haunted by missing on a draft pick?

keg in kc
05-06-2008, 01:59 PM
They did sign 1-2 free agents. Devard Darling and DeMorrio Williams.

Fish
05-06-2008, 02:01 PM
Years of quality service time.
You can't demonize the process because the staff chose to ignore the other side of the football.

To identify players who will provide you with some of the best service time your franchise will ever enjoy? Absolutely.

Your argument fails because it doesn't take anything else into consideration.
Had we been able to identify talent in the Draft on the defensive side of the football this team would've accomplished more than what they did.

Our failures in the Draft (yesteryear) isn't a reason not to utilize it effectively in the future. The same is true of Free Agency.

Forgive me for shooting a little higher than quality service time as a success indicator.

And I'm not refusing to take anything else into consideration. As myself and others have repeated, we're not advocating to ignore free agency. Not in the least. But right now, this year, it didn't make any sense to go after the FA guys that would have made you happy. That in no way means that in following seasons we won't take advantage of free agency.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 02:02 PM
You don't build a team with free agency, you build a team in the draft and use free agency to put the last pieces in place.

Which is what I've been advocating.

We're not at the 'last pieces' stage yet, and even if we were, this was an extremely weak free agent class.

Why do Free Agents have to be the last wave of a rebuilding project?
Answer: They don't.

And like it or not, free agency is losing steam, and has been for several years now. Teams either hold on to their best players or trade them off to the highest bidder. Usually all you find on the market now is old, infirm or high risk players, or mid-level talent trying to land high-dollar contracts. Let the buyer beware, in other words.

Which would explain how FA's are getting record contracts in Free Agency...
:rolleyes:

I could quickly name a dozen young, healthy FA's this off-season.

Coogs
05-06-2008, 02:08 PM
Herm has had a full 3 drafts to work with. Everyone acts like this past offseason was his first year. There should already be a solid foundation if his drafting has been worth a crap.

We should know this season if we have been drafting well the past two drafts. If Croyle, Tank, Turk, Webb, Smith, Hali, Page, Pollard, Taylor, Stallings pan out to some degree (which some already have), the past two drafts would have to be considered successes.

Chiefnj2
05-06-2008, 02:10 PM
We should know this season if we have been drafting well the past two drafts. If Croyle, Tank, Turk, Webb, Smith, Hali, Page, Pollard, Taylor, Stallings pan out to some degree, I would think the past two drafts would have to be considered successes.

After 3 full drafts with a new coach a team shouldn't be less than 8-8.

Coogs
05-06-2008, 02:14 PM
After 3 full drafts with a new coach a team shouldn't be less than 8-8.

And believe it or not nj I really think 8-8 is possible this season. It might not happen, but I am a heck of a lot more optomistic on reaching 8-8 this season than I was reaching 8-8 last season.

whoman69
05-06-2008, 02:23 PM
The time to fill the holes on our O-line was before the draft. We now have two positions in which we will have to rely on unproven players to contribute a great deal. There are some positions like safety or running back where you can get worth from an unproven player. O-line is usually not one of them. Its great we added what looks like a stud in the draft. Its not enough. IMO this team will be overachieving if it can get 6 wins this year. I also want to know where the wide receiver is that will take the double teams off Bowe. We dropped two receivers to save on cap room and didn't sign any. More journeyman to the rescue.

keg in kc
05-06-2008, 02:23 PM
Which would explain how FA's are getting record contracts in Free Agency...

I could quickly name a dozen young, healthy FA's this off-season.Free agents are getting record contracts specifically because the free agent pool is thinning-out. As I mentioned, you're seeing mid-level (read: mediocre, unproven) talent getting enormous contracts because there simply isn't very much to choose from. You just don't find "can't miss" prospects on the market anymore, because teams are either keeping them or trading them. They don't let anyone with any real value walk, not for free.

That doesn't mean a player can't slip through the cracks, but if a guy's available, there's going to be a reason for it.

As for your "dozen young, healthy FAs", there's likely already a dozen young, healthy players on the roster that are in no palpable way different than they are.

raybec 4
05-06-2008, 02:29 PM
What's to say Faine would be any better than Niswanger? Rudy Niswanger did pretty damn good at right guard last year and with his size I think he will be a significant upgrade over Wiegmann.

How about we just see how the guys on our roster develop. Perhaps Herb Taylor develops into the next Jacob Bell at right guard. Similar size and both were collegiate tackles.

Thats exactly right, isn't the whole point of a youth movement to give the young guys a chance to play?

keg in kc
05-06-2008, 02:38 PM
Thats exactly right, isn't the whole point of a youth movement to give the young guys a chance to play?Insanity!

Other teams' castoffs must be better than players still on our roster.

Coogs
05-06-2008, 02:47 PM
The time to fill the holes on our O-line was before the draft. We now have two positions in which we will have to rely on unproven players to contribute a great deal. There are some positions like safety or running back where you can get worth from an unproven player. O-line is usually not one of them. Its great we added what looks like a stud in the draft. Its not enough. IMO this team will be overachieving if it can get 6 wins this year. I also want to know where the wide receiver is that will take the double teams off Bowe. We dropped two receivers to save on cap room and didn't sign any. More journeyman to the rescue.

Whoman69,

Long time, no talk! Good to see you around again! I read a piece s couple three months ago where Herm was hoping to put Webb in the slot. My guess is Darling and Franklin will battle for the 2 spot. Will it be enough to take some heat off of Bowe and Gonzo? :shrug:

Let's hope so.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 02:55 PM
They did sign 1-2 free agents. Devard Darling and DeMorrio Williams.

Darling is camp fodder on any other team.
Williams was a good signing though.
Be he was signed at a position where we really didn't need help.

Brock
05-06-2008, 02:56 PM
They also signed C/LT Wade Smith.

Mecca
05-06-2008, 03:05 PM
"We have to rely on unproven players"

All players are unproven at some point in their careers, some of you have been fans of this team for so long god forbid a young guy be given a chance.

I'm sorry paying an interior OL 5 mill a year is ****in dumb. Not to mention to sign anyone in the Chiefs position they'd have to wildly overpay because of how bad the team is.

People need to chill out, the teams that handle things properly are the ones who don't overspend in FA or use FA all that much......

True Fans are out in full force wanting to win their 8 games.

Mecca
05-06-2008, 03:05 PM
Darling is camp fodder on any other team.
Williams was a good signing though.
Be he was signed at a position where we really didn't need help.

Did someone not tell you that this team is really not going to compete this year? This isn't remotely about this year.

SBK
05-06-2008, 03:08 PM
Teicher is the messiah of the LT or bust crowd.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 03:09 PM
They also signed C/LT Wade Smith.

I'd almost forgotten.
Another good signing.

Mecca
05-06-2008, 03:09 PM
Teicher is the messiah of the LT or bust crowd.

Isn't it nice that it only took a week for the real fans to come out again?

Micjones
05-06-2008, 03:10 PM
Did someone not tell you that this team is really not going to compete this year? This isn't remotely about this year.

So we shouldn't try to improve the team in the meantime?
And a 26 year old guy probably won't contribute in another 2 years, right?

These arguments are awful.

Mecca
05-06-2008, 03:13 PM
So we shouldn't try to improve the team in the meantime?
And a 26 year old guy probably won't contribute in another 2 years, right?

These arguments are awful.

When you have to pay him 5 million dollars yea...I'm sorry I'd much rather resemble the Colts/chargers/Steelers than say the Redskins, and here lately the Pats are relying much more on FA and trades than the draft and they are getting old because of it.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 03:15 PM
When you have to pay him 5 million dollars yea...I'm sorry I'd much rather resemble the Colts/chargers/Steelers than say the Redskins, and here lately the Pats are relying much more on FA and trades than the draft and they are getting old because of it.

You're aware that there were affordable FA's on the market, yes?
You realize the Colts/Chargers/Steelers sign FA's as well, yes?
You realize we can't exactly utilize their team methodologies currently, yes?
You realize they all have franchise QB's, yes?
You realize they all have done a better job in recent years through the draft, yes?

Mecca
05-06-2008, 03:17 PM
If you can give me an important player from the Colts/Chargers/Steelers that wasn't drafted by them I'd be shocked.....I await as you name off some garbage guy like Cedric Wilson or Derek Smith though.

Anyone who brings up guys like Centers and Guards you overpay for those guys in FA..more than you ever should. It's not worth it....

RustShack
05-06-2008, 03:19 PM
How did these proven guys prove themselves in the first place? I think they started out as rookies like everyone else.

whoman69
05-06-2008, 03:20 PM
Whoman69,

Long time, no talk! Good to see you around again! I read a piece s couple three months ago where Herm was hoping to put Webb in the slot. My guess is Darling and Franklin will battle for the 2 spot. Will it be enough to take some heat off of Bowe and Gonzo? :shrug:

Let's hope so.

I didn't see anything out of Webb that made me think he will do any better than any of the other mediocre slot receivers we've had. I don't think Darling and Franklin are putting too many fears into opposing defensive coordinators either.

Mecca
05-06-2008, 03:21 PM
Some people are so overly impatient it's ridiculous.....

The Pats/Colts/Chargers came from extreme low points and turned it around we are now in that low point it is going to take more than 1 god damn season.

Quit striving to be 8-8 and signing other peoples garbage that they don't want anymore.

Chiefnj2
05-06-2008, 03:37 PM
Some people are so overly impatient it's ridiculous.....

The Pats/Colts/Chargers came from extreme low points and turned it around we are now in that low point it is going to take more than 1 god damn season.

Quit striving to be 8-8 and signing other peoples garbage that they don't want anymore.

Overly impatient? It's Herm's third year. He has had 3 full drafts to make his mark.

The Pats - Parcells had the team at 10-6 his second year.

Mora was 3-13 his first year and 13-3 his second year.

Schott had the Chargers at 12-4 in his 3rd year (4-12 his second).

All the examples you gave had one bad season followed by a massive turnaround.

Coogs
05-06-2008, 03:48 PM
I didn't see anything out of Webb that made me think he will do any better than any of the other mediocre slot receivers we've had. I don't think Darling and Franklin are putting too many fears into opposing defensive coordinators either.

I have not seen Darling or Franklin play much at all, so I can not comment on either of those. I hope one or both pan out. Webb... who knows. It is his make or break year I would think.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 04:01 PM
If you can give me an important player from the Colts/Chargers/Steelers that wasn't drafted by them I'd be shocked.....I await as you name off some garbage guy like Cedric Wilson or Derek Smith though.

I'll try...
*Bites nails*

Chris Chambers?
Mike Goff?
Both starting Safeties?

keg in kc
05-06-2008, 04:02 PM
I know we all want instant gratification, but if the rule rule of thumb is that it takes 3 seasons for your average receiver to develop, this would be the year Webb starts to 'get it'. So maybe it's a little premature to give up on him. He was certainly better last year than he was as a rookie.

ChiefsCountry
05-06-2008, 04:04 PM
Overly impatient? It's Herm's third year. He has had 3 full drafts to make his mark.

The Pats - Parcells had the team at 10-6 his second year.

Mora was 3-13 his first year and 13-3 his second year.

Schott had the Chargers at 12-4 in his 3rd year (4-12 his second).

All the examples you gave had one bad season followed by a massive turnaround.

But Herm didnt start at strach his first year. That team was win now mode not really Herm's baby. Last year would be year #1 of the rebuild IMO. This would be #2.

beach tribe
05-06-2008, 04:05 PM
I know we all want instant gratification, but if the rule rule of thumb is that it takes 3 seasons for your average receiver to develop, this would be the year Webb starts to 'get it'. So maybe it's a little premature to give up on him. He was certainly better last year than he was as a rookie.

Maybe this year he'll get his ****ing feet down.

keg in kc
05-06-2008, 04:08 PM
But Herm didnt start at strach his first year. That team was win now mode not really Herm's baby. Last year would be year #1 of the rebuild IMO. This would be #2.That's how I see it, as well. This is year 2 of the rebuild and 2009 is the year they should make their first serious playoff push. If they don't have it going by then, they probably never will.

Mecca
05-06-2008, 04:09 PM
I'll try...
*Bites nails*

Chris Chambers?
Mike Goff?
Both starting Safeties?

Chris Chambers was traded for...they gave up a 2nd round pick, that isn't a FA move...

Goff is in his 10th year.but yes he wasn't drafted by them...

Who are these starting safeties you speak of.....right now their starting safeties are Hart, who was undrafted and only has played for the Chargers and Eric Weddle who was also drafted by them.....Marlon McCree is no longer with that team.

aturnis
05-06-2008, 04:22 PM
This is why there is a thing called FREE AGENCY that is another medium to build and improve your team. Jeff Faine and Jake Scott were YOUNG (both 27 years old) offensive linemen that were available in free agency that could have come in and immediately started on the Chiefs offensive line... instead the Chiefs decided to do nothing during free agency and rely completely on the draft, where even Herm in this article admits you can't fill all of your needs through.

I would much rather have a starting offensive line consisting of McIntosh at right tackle, Alberts at left tackle, Faine at center, Waters at left guard and Scott at right guard than the mess the Chiefs currently have now.

ANNOYING!!

ChiefsCountry
05-06-2008, 04:36 PM
6-10 is what I expect this year. Also I think that would be the way to really judge Croyle as well, 6 plus wins and we have our future qb, anything less and it totally depends on his play.

CoMoChief
05-06-2008, 04:56 PM
Overly impatient? It's Herm's third year. He has had 3 full drafts to make his mark.

The Pats - Parcells had the team at 10-6 his second year.

Mora was 3-13 his first year and 13-3 his second year.

Schott had the Chargers at 12-4 in his 3rd year (4-12 his second).

All the examples you gave had one bad season followed by a massive turnaround.

Thats great!!!! Meanwhile Herm's team get worse and worse season after season.

The good thing is that after a 4-12 season, there isn't much room for more failure.

Micjones
05-06-2008, 05:00 PM
Who are these starting safeties you speak of.....right now their starting safeties are Hart, who was undrafted and only has played for the Chargers and Eric Weddle who was also drafted by them.....Marlon McCree is no longer with that team.

Hart played for Philadelphia and was later signed by the Chargers.

buddha
05-06-2008, 05:49 PM
It's mind numbing to read that the Chiefs still have holes to fill after one draft. REALLY? No shit Adam...what other incredibly obvious things do you have to pass along to us? That tricky one about water being wet, or how about the inevitability of death and taxes. True insight.

Casserly is the one bright light in that whole piece. He's right. Offensive line wasn't the ONLY need area for KC and the Chiefs stuck to the script...something they should have done in years past, but didn't. Charles is going to be a fan favorite very quickly.

Also, there will be more opportunities to help the o-line before the season.

DaneMcCloud
05-06-2008, 07:37 PM
Overly impatient? It's Herm's third year. He has had 3 full drafts to make his mark.

The Pats - Parcells had the team at 10-6 his second year.

Mora was 3-13 his first year and 13-3 his second year.

Schott had the Chargers at 12-4 in his 3rd year (4-12 his second).

All the examples you gave had one bad season followed by a massive turnaround.

All of those teams listed also had either a first round draft choice as QB or the number one overall drafted QB.

The Chiefs won't have the number one overall QB until the 2009 draft. :evil:

siberian khatru
05-06-2008, 07:39 PM
It's mind numbing to read that the Chiefs still have holes to fill after one draft. REALLY? No shit Adam...what other incredibly obvious things do you have to pass along to us? That tricky one about water being wet, or how about the inevitability of death and taxes. True insight.



That was my reaction too.

Gary
05-06-2008, 10:40 PM
How many years since we've been to a superbowl?...and how many times have we made it to the conference championship game in those years? Put me in the "waiting patiently while they try something different" category. I'll be fine there for a couple more years.

KcMizzou
05-06-2008, 10:52 PM
How many years since we've been to a superbowl?...and how many times have we made it to the conference championship game in those years? Put me in the "waiting patiently while they try something different" category. I'll be fine there for a couple more years.That's pretty much where I'm at. This draft seems like a hell of a good start to me. I'm not going to jump off any bridges if we go 4-12 again. I just want to watch the young guys play, and see who's got it.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-06-2008, 10:55 PM
6-10 is what I expect this year. Also I think that would be the way to really judge Croyle as well, 6 plus wins and we have our future qb, anything less and it totally depends on his play.

Perfect.

milkman
05-07-2008, 07:36 AM
With the terrible play of guys like Terry and Turley, the mediocre play of Weigman in a different style, and the horrid play of Svitek at LT, people can't seem to recognize, acknowledge, or remeber that Niswanger and Taylor, when he saw the field, actually played pretty good.

With Albert and Richardson from the draft, there's some building material there.

milkman
05-07-2008, 07:38 AM
Overly impatient? It's Herm's third year. He has had 3 full drafts to make his mark.

The Pats - Parcells had the team at 10-6 his second year.

Mora was 3-13 his first year and 13-3 his second year.

Schott had the Chargers at 12-4 in his 3rd year (4-12 his second).

All the examples you gave had one bad season followed by a massive turnaround.

How many years of high draft picks did those teams have before Parcells, Mora and Marty were hired?

milkman
05-07-2008, 07:40 AM
If you can give me an important player from the Colts/Chargers/Steelers that wasn't drafted by them I'd be shocked.....I await as you name off some garbage guy like Cedric Wilson or Derek Smith though.

Anyone who brings up guys like Centers and Guards you overpay for those guys in FA..more than you ever should. It's not worth it....

Heard on the radio.

Not one of the Colts 22 starters has ever played for another team.

Chiefnj2
05-07-2008, 08:20 AM
All of those teams listed also had either a first round draft choice as QB or the number one overall drafted QB.

The Chiefs won't have the number one overall QB until the 2009 draft. :evil:

Brees was a 2nd round pick.

KC could have made a move, or taken, a QB in the first round had they wanted one the last two years.