PDA

View Full Version : Royals Butler and Gordon


bango
05-19-2008, 09:04 PM
I keep on hearing that many sports reporters and baseball writers are coming close to calling both Butler and Gordon busts. With living out of state I do not get a chance to see enough of these two players to make a call. I have looked at their numbers and they seem to be doing okay to me. I do not see them as all stars just yet, but they are still young. I can see them also as being rushed through the Royal's System. I still would not go as far as to call either one of them busts. I think that might be a stretch. What do you guys think?

Deberg_1990
05-19-2008, 09:08 PM
They wont be busts.

They might not ever be the players that most fans dream of them to be.

Who knows, its still very early.

bsp4444
05-19-2008, 09:13 PM
Butler will be a bust. Or at least he will not be with the organization long. He does not hit for enough power to be a DH or first baseman. He may have some long hitting streaks, but they lack power and most are one hit games.

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:15 PM
busts both of them can we wait until they are 25 or 26 before we start evaluating them?

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:16 PM
Just for reference brett was in his second year he had 11 home runs and 89 RBI and batted .308

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:19 PM
Butler was always going to be average while Alex has raw power. Butler has played decent over at first base and hasn't made any horrible mistakes. It is so early let's wait until they get a couple years seeing the same pitchers over and over again

BigRock
05-19-2008, 09:22 PM
I keep on hearing that many sports reporters and baseball writers are coming close to calling both Butler and Gordon busts.
Where did you hear this? Did you sit on the montly sports reporters and baseball writers meeting, where they collectively decide how to label certain players?

noa
05-19-2008, 09:23 PM
What would you consider a bust? Gordon is putting together a decent season. Certainly playing in the top half of third basemen (maybe even top ten), but people might hold him to a higher standard because he was drafted so high. His stats are respectable so far.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:23 PM
Alex Gordon was basically suppose to be what Ryan Braun is. And well he's been up awhile and he's not even close..

You also can't compare anything to Brett the game is different, in the 70's 25 HR's was a big deal, now everyone does that.

Deberg_1990
05-19-2008, 09:25 PM
They both look like the next Mark Teahen.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:27 PM
They both look like the next Mark Teahen.

Yet there are still people that think Teahen needs time, what's he need 10 years?

Dude sucks period.

noa
05-19-2008, 09:28 PM
Alex Gordon was basically suppose to be what Ryan Braun is. And well he's been up awhile and he's not even close..

To me, a bust is a guy who was a total miss and will be out of the league soon. Gordon isn't Braun, but he also hasn't reached bust status just b/c he isn't a top 3B.

Deberg_1990
05-19-2008, 09:28 PM
Yet there are still people that think Teahen needs time, what's he need 10 years?

Dude sucks period.

Wow?? There are people who still think he might break out?? To what? 20 homeruns?? WooHoo!!

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:29 PM
Wow?? There are people who still think he might break out?? To what? 20 homeruns?? WooHoo!!

He is just complete crap, if you can't consistently hit 300 with 30 HR's you can't be a starting AL corner outfielder you are a liability.

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:33 PM
Alex Gordon was basically suppose to be what Ryan Braun is. And well he's been up awhile and he's not even close..

You also can't compare anything to Brett the game is different, in the 70's 25 HR's was a big deal, now everyone does that.


I disagree.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:34 PM
He is just complete crap, if you can't consistently hit 300 with 30 HR's you can't be a starting AL corner outfielder you are a liability.


That's just dumb.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:34 PM
I disagree.

Elaborate....

The game is completely different, everyone hits HR's now.

Deberg_1990
05-19-2008, 09:34 PM
He is just complete crap, if you can't consistently hit 300 with 30 HR's you can't be a starting AL corner outfielder you are a liability.

Yea....whats this, like his 4th full year and hes actually regressing as a hitter.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:35 PM
That's just dumb.

Have you seen what average AL production is?

You have to have OF's that can hit and hit at an extremely high level. Mark Teahen hits like a 1982 shortstop.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:36 PM
Yea....whats this, like his 4th full year and hes actually regressing as a hitter.

Notice how I brought out people who disagree.....sorry guys Mark Teahen sucks.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:36 PM
Have you seen what average AL production is?

You have to have OF's that can hit and hit at an extremely high level. Mark Teahen hits like a 1982 shortstop.


I'm not going to argue that Teahan is a liability, but to say that any corner OF that doesn't hit 300 with 30 HRs is a liability is just ridiculous.

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:38 PM
Elaborate....

The game is completely different, everyone hits HR's now.


The point was you can't call someone a bust in the second year. The greatest royal of all time didn't light it up and that was with good talent. Brett and Gordon are differen't players anyway. I never saw brett hit one 430 opposite field.

OmahaChief
05-19-2008, 09:38 PM
Alex Gordon was basically suppose to be what Ryan Braun is. And well he's been up awhile and he's not even close..

You also can't compare anything to Brett the game is different, in the 70's 25 HR's was a big deal, now everyone does that.

I never saw anything that equated Braun's power to what Gordon was supposed to be. I saw numerous experts say Gordon would bat 300 and hit 15 to 25 hrs. Braun had big power in college much more so then Gordon. Braun hit more HRs then Gordon did in college and he did it in 3 years and his sophomore year he missed 18 games.

Deberg_1990
05-19-2008, 09:38 PM
I'm not going to argue that Teahan is a liability, but to say that any corner OF that doesn't hit 300 with 30 HRs is a liability is just ridiculous.

YOu realize you just contradicted yourself???

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:39 PM
YOu realize you just contradicted yourself???



How so?

Do you realize how many AL outfielders hit 30 HRs in 2007?

ZERO.

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:40 PM
I do agree I am ready to pull the plug on teahan. Let him play this year out.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:40 PM
The only way it is not a liability is if you have say Ichiro who has a 400+ on base.

If you don't have alot of power you have to be great at everything else to be a productive AL OFer.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:41 PM
How so?

Do you realize how many AL outfielders hit 30 HRs in 2007?

ZERO.

The only way it is not a liability is if you have say Ichiro who has a 400+ on base.

If you don't have alot of power you have to be great at everything else to be a productive AL OFer.

.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:43 PM
Also if you have OF's with no power that means your infield has to have it, you aren't winning in the AL with no power.

Did you just say no AL Corner outfielders hit 30 HR's are you high?

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:43 PM
It's hard to talk baseball when people don't know basic facts about the game

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:44 PM
I want to see him tell me how no outfielders hit 30 HR's.

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:45 PM
braun played 3rd last year

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:45 PM
Also if you have OF's with no power that means your infield has to have it, you aren't winning in the AL with no power.

Did you just say no AL Corner outfielders hit 30 HR's are you high?


Yes. Not only did no AL corner outfielder hit 30 HRs in 2007, NO OUTFIELDER did period.

Wanna argue some more?

Jermaine Dye hit the most HRs for an outfielder in the AL last year with 28, and he hit a whopping .254. So much for that .300/30 HRs thing.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 09:45 PM
He is just complete crap, if you can't consistently hit 300 with 30 HR's you can't be a starting AL corner outfielder you are a liability.

:bong:

Not one player in the AL from the 2007 season fits this description. Not one. Check the stats. You've just described a first-ballot hall-of-famer, not a typical outfielder.

If you meant to say that an ideal corner outfielder should have the potential to hit 30 hr's, I agree. In an ideal world a team would have 4 bangers, one at each corner. What team has this? Not the Red Sox, even. You think Drew's lived up to expectations?

Braun's been great, and Gordon has underachieved based on expectations. Every "expert" said he was the top 3B in the '05 draft and that in an average draft year (no Upton) would be the obvious #1 choice. That said, he's an above-average player, and he still might develop into an All-Star. It's just unlikely that he'll be HOF material, but that's still possible; he's young.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 09:46 PM
Yes. Not only did no AL corner outfielder hit 30 HRs in 2007, NO OUTFIELDER did period.

Wanna argue some more?

Jermaine Dye hit the most HRs for an outfielder in the AL last year with 28, and he hit a whopping .254. So much for that .300/30 HRs thing.

Sorry to repeat. I was headed in the same direction, obviously.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:46 PM
I want to see him tell me how no outfielders hit 30 HR's.



Go ahead Mecca. Prove me wrong. Find one AL outfielder who hit 30 HRs last year.

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:47 PM
he is right no AL outfielder hit 30 homeruns that i see

Sortable Batting
RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
1 Alex Rodriguez NYY 583 143 183 31 0 54 156 24 4 95 120 .314 .422 .645 1.067
2 Prince Fielder MIL 573 109 165 35 2 50 119 2 2 90 121 .288 .395 .618 1.013
3 Ryan Howard PHI 529 94 142 26 0 47 136 1 0 107 199 .268 .392 .584 .976
4 Carlos Pena TAM 490 99 138 29 1 46 121 1 0 103 142 .282 .411 .627 1.037
5 Adam Dunn CIN 522 101 138 27 2 40 106 9 2 101 165 .264 .386 .554 .940
6 Matt Holliday COL 636 120 216 50 6 36 137 11 4 63 126 .340 .405 .607 1.012
7 David Ortiz BOS 549 116 182 52 1 35 117 3 1 111 103 .332 .445 .621 1.066
Jim Thome CHW 432 79 119 19 0 35 96 0 1 95 134 .275 .410 .563 .973
9 Lance Berkman HOU 561 95 156 24 2 34 102 7 3 94 125 .278 .386 .510 .896
Miguel Cabrera FLA 588 91 188 38 2 34 119 2 1 79 127 .320 .401 .565 .965
RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
Ryan Braun MIL 451 91 146 26 6 34 97 15 5 29 112 .324 .370 .634 1.004
12 Carlos Beltran NYM 554 93 153 33 3 33 112 23 2 69 111 .276 .353 .525 .878
Alfonso Soriano CHC 579 97 173 42 5 33 70 19 6 31 130 .299 .337 .560 .897
14 Carlos Lee HOU 627 93 190 43 1 32 119 10 5 53 63 .303 .354 .528 .882
Albert Pujols STL 565 99 185 38 1 32 103 2 6 99 58 .327 .429 .568 .997
Chris Young ARI 569 85 135 29 3 32 68 27 6 43 141 .237 .295 .467 .763
17 Paul Konerko CHW 549 71 142 34 0 31 90 0 1 78 102 .259 .351 .490 .841
Justin Morneau MIN 590 84 160 31 3 31 111 1 1 64 91 .271 .343 .492 .834
Dan Uggla FLA 632 113 155 49 3 31 88 2 1 68 167 .245 .326 .479 .805
20 Pat Burrell PHI 472 77 121 26 0 30 97 0 0 114 120 .256 .400 .502 .902
RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
Jimmy Rollins PHI 716 139 212 38 20 30 94 41 6 49 85 .296 .344 .531 .875
Mark Teixeira TEX/ATL 494 86 151 33 2 30 105 0 0 72 112 .306 .400 .563 .963
Brandon Phillips CIN 650 107 187 26 6 30 94 32 8 33 109 .288 .331 .485 .816
Adrian Gonzalez SDG 646 101 182 46 3 30 100 0 0 65 140 .282 .347 .502 .849
David Wright NYM 604 113 196 42 1 30 107 34 5 94 115 .325 .416 .546 .963
Ken Griffey Jr. CIN 528 78 146 24 1 30 93 6 1 85 99 .277 .372 .496 .869
27 Brad Hawpe COL 516 80 150 33 4 29 116 0 2 81 137 .291 .387 .539 .926
Hanley Ramirez FLA 639 125 212 48 6 29 81 51 14 52 95 .332 .386 .562 .948
Chipper Jones ATL 513 108 173 42 4 29 102 5 1 82 75 .337 .425 .604 1.029
30 Jermaine Dye CHW 508 68 129 34 0 28 78 2 1 45 107 .254 .317 .486 .804
RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
Torii Hunter MIN 600 94 172 45 1 28 107 18 9 40 101 .287 .334 .505 .839
Magglio Ordonez DET 595 117 216 54 0 28 139 4 1 76 79 .363 .434 .595 1.029
Barry Bonds SFO 340 75 94 14 0 28 66 5 0 132 54 .276 .480 .565 1.045
34 Vladimir Guerrero LAA 574 89 186 45 1 27 125 2 3 71 62 .324 .403 .547 .950
Aaron Rowand PHI 612 105 189 45 0 27 89 6 3 47 119 .309 .374 .515 .889
Khalil Greene SDG 611 89 155 44 3 27 97 4 0 32 128 .254 .291 .468 .759
37 Andruw Jones ATL 572 83 127 27 2 26 94 5 2 70 138 .222 .311 .413 .724
Aramis Ramirez CHC 506 72 157 35 4 26 101 0 0 43 66 .310 .366 .549 .915
Adrian Beltre SEA 595 87 164 41 2 26 99 14 2 38 104 .276 .319 .482 .802
Jack Cust OAK 395 61 101 18 1 26 82 0 2 105 164 .256 .408 .504 .912

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:47 PM
:bong:

Not one player in the AL from the 2007 season fits this description. Not one. Check the stats. You've just described a first-ballot hall-of-famer, not a typical outfielder.

If you meant to say that an ideal corner outfielder should have the potential to hit 30 hr's, I agree. In an ideal world a team would have 4 bangers, one at each corner. What team has this? Not the Red Sox, even. You think Drew's lived up to expectations?

Braun's been great, and Gordon has underachieved based on expectations. Every "expert" said he was the top 3B in the '05 draft and that in an average draft year (no Upton) would be the obvious #1 choice. That said, he's an above-average player, and he still might develop into an All-Star. It's just unlikely that he'll be HOF material, but that's still possible; he's young.


Mecca's a classic know-it-all who really doesn't know much.

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:48 PM
tk13 royals homer good baseball
woodraw sabermatrics dude some other posters mixed in are decent posters.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:48 PM
Look there are exceptions but outfielders need to hit HR's, a lower average is acceptable if he has a high on base, a guy like say Adam Dunn.

You better have power on your team you can't start these slubs in the OF the Royals do and expect to compete.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:50 PM
Look there are exceptions but outfielders need to hit HR's, a lower average is acceptable if he has a high on base, a guy like say Adam Dunn.

You better have power on your team you can't start these slubs in the OF the Royals do and expect to compete.


ROFL

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:50 PM
Alright because there was a bit of an odd coincidence of guys not producing at typical levels like say Manny Ramirez that means I have no clue what I'm talking about.....you need atleast 1 serious run production bat in the outfield.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:51 PM
ROFL

Laugh all you want but putting Joey Gathright Mark Teahen and David DeJesus in the OF who will combine for about 15 HR's is a joke.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:52 PM
Alright because there was a bit of an odd coincidence of guys not producing at typical levels like say Manny Ramirez that means I have no clue what I'm talking about.....you need atleast 1 serious run production bat in the outfield.



You are sure backpeddling quickly.

A minute ago, every outfielder in the league needed to be .300/30 and now you just need one run production bat in the outfield. We have that, by the way. Guillen fits that description.

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:52 PM
The reds lost 90 games last year that isn't really competing

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 09:52 PM
Alright because there was a bit of an odd coincidence of guys not producing at typical levels like say Manny Ramirez that means I have no clue what I'm talking about.....you need atleast 1 serious run production bat in the outfield.

A typical level would be what Manny does? Shit!!!

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:53 PM
Laugh all you want but putting Joey Gathright Mark Teahen and David DeJesus in the OF who will combine for about 15 HR's is a joke.



I'm just laughing at your dumb ass because you continue to talk to people like they don't know anything, all the while you are just spewing out baseless shit.

And it's a good thing that's not our outfield too. We have Guillen, who is a run producer.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:54 PM
The reds lost 90 games last year that isn't really competing


And they also had Griffey put up 30 HRs.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:55 PM
The reds lost 90 games last year that isn't really competing

Which team would you rather be.......I think I'd rather have what the Reds have on this day...

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:55 PM
I'm just laughing at your dumb ass because you continue to talk to people like they don't know anything, all the while you are just spewing out baseless shit.

And it's a good thing that's not our outfield too. We have Guillen, who is a run producer.

Is it not a fact that the Royals are one of if not the worst offensive team in all of baseball?

Are you honestly trying to tell me what the Royals are doing with their lineup is fine?

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 09:55 PM
The point Mecca's trying to make is correct, however. A team must have power at the corners. During that last game of the Marlins series, the announcers said it was Teahen's first homer in something like 120-140 AB's. That's pathetic. If you don't even have the hint of power in the outfield, your team is screwed.

Guillen's been on fire, but I think some of the joy at seeing this is because Royals fans are so shocked to see a Major Leaguer with actual Major League power. A novel idea.

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:56 PM
Which team would you rather be.......I think I'd rather have what the Reds have on this day...

I'm sure you would

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:57 PM
I'm sure you would

Because it's better?

Dude people would jizz themselves if the Royals had guys like Dunn and Votto with Jay Bruce on his way.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 09:57 PM
Is it not a fact that the Royals are one of if not the worst offensive team in all of baseball?

Are you honestly trying to tell me what the Royals are doing with their lineup is fine?


No. The Royals offense sucks.

But your way of making outlandish statements is hilarious.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 09:57 PM
Which team would you rather be.......I think I'd rather have what the Reds have on this day...

Dunn is a strikeout or a homer. His average is shit, and his OBP isn't great either. You might get your wish, however, because he is a FA after this year.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:58 PM
The point Mecca's trying to make is correct, however. A team must have power at the corners. During that last game of the Marlins series, the announcers said it was Teahen's first homer in something like 120-140 AB's. That's pathetic. If you don't even have the hint of power in the outfield, your team is screwed.

Guillen's been on fire, but I think some of the joy at seeing this is because Royals fans are so shocked to see a Major Leaguer with actual Major League power. A novel idea.

And you can get way with not as much if you have a huge run producer at a position that makes him very valuable like say Hanley Ramirez, but OF's should still be high level hitters with high OBPs even if they don't have immense power they should have at worst good power.

Demonpenz
05-19-2008, 09:58 PM
Because it's better?

Dude people would jizz themselves if the Royals had guys like Dunn and Votto with Jay Bruce on his way.


I will take our pitching staff thanks

Mecca
05-19-2008, 09:59 PM
Dunn is a strikeout or a homer. His average is shit, and his OBP isn't great either. You might get your wish, however, because he is a FA after this year.

He walks alot aswell....he's HR, K or Walk...to me batting 250 is ok when he walks enough to have a 340 OBP and is jacking 40+

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:00 PM
And you can get way with not as much if you have a huge run producer at a position that makes him very valuable like say Hanley Ramirez, but OF's should still be high level hitters with high OBPs even if they don't have immense power they should have at worst good power.

Sure. This gets intensified when the Royals trot out an 8-man lineup everyday. With Pena consistently seeing action, it's amazing the Royals have been this competitive. What sport can you be successful in when you play a man down?

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:02 PM
Sure. This gets intensified when the Royals trot out an 8-man lineup everyday. With Pena consistently seeing action, it's amazing the Royals have been this competitive. What sport can you be successful in when you play a man down?

This team honestly has no middle of the lineup hitters, there is no 3 4 or 5. And why is that....because guys who have power command big money.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:02 PM
He walks alot aswell....he's HR, K or Walk...to me batting 250 is ok when he walks enough to have a 340 OBP and is jacking 40+

And break Bye Bye Balboni's record. No ****ing way.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:03 PM
And break Bye Bye Balboni's record. No ****ing way.

The fact that we went through the roid era and that record still stands is all we need to know about this team and it's hitting.

kcfanXIII
05-19-2008, 10:04 PM
gordon's not a bust, butler could be the next rubber mallet.

i think the point about teahen is, if you aren't a good defensive outfielder, you should at least bring something to the plate. i don't mind tony pena jr's poor at bats, because he's a hell of a defensive shortstop. however, it seems the royals have a number of guys that don't produce consistantly, john buck, joey gathright, teahen and pena. what pisses me off, is out of the three guys we got for beltran, none will be with the team after this year. i think olivo will get the everyday catching duties by the end of the year, rendering buck dispensible and i've given my opinion of t-bag.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:04 PM
This team honestly has no middle of the lineup hitters, there is no 3 4 or 5. And why is that....because guys who have power command big money.

Guillen is. Ideally he's a 5. This is where he's been most productive during his career, and I think you're selling Gordon short. If he becomes a consistent .300, 20-25 HR guy, he could be a 3. Put a thumper at 4, a Dunn type, and now you have a solid middle of the order.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:05 PM
The fact that we went through the roid era and that record still stands is all we need to know about this team and it's hitting.

And ownership's reluctance to spend any ****ing money.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:06 PM
Guillen is. Ideally he's a 5. This is where he's been most productive during his career, and I think you're selling Gordon short. If he becomes a consistent .300, 20-25 HR guy, he could be a 3. Put a thumper at 4, a Dunn type, and now you have a solid middle of the order.


Yep, it's really not that far away. Then, if Butler's your #6 hitter, that's not a bad start to a lineup

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:06 PM
Ok Guillen is fine, he shouldn't be your offensive centerpiece but he's a good complimentary player.

I have no faith in what Gordon will be, I've seen way to many guys with huge hype come up on this team and be complete shit.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:07 PM
You really think the Royals are going to try to sign Dunn....that man is going to command huge money.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:09 PM
Yep, it's really not that far away. Then, if Butler's your #6 hitter, that's not a bad start to a lineup

Agreed. What I can't understand is why Callaspo can't make it on the field. I'm tired of hearing about Pena's defense. He is not the second coming Vizquel. He's a slightly above average SS. Couple that with no hitting...:shake:

Seitzer was on the radio the other day and he thought Callaspo could handle the position (coached him in Arizona), and the Royals gave up a legit prospect to get him, so what the heck?

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:11 PM
You really think the Royals are going to try to sign Dunn....that man is going to command huge money.

I don't think it will be that huge. He could be in the Guillen range. 12-14 mil per. This is easily within reach.

Petro claimed that the Royals, this year alone, are receiving between 70-80 mil in revenue sharing, so if the team doesn't start to have a payroll that's the equivalent of the money they're literally being given, it's beyond a joke.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:13 PM
Ok Guillen is fine, he shouldn't be your offensive centerpiece but he's a good complimentary player.

I have no faith in what Gordon will be, I've seen way to many guys with huge hype come up on this team and be complete shit.

But the difference with Gordon is that everyone said he was the man. He was getting hyped by more people than just the Royals. He wasn't a marketing scheme like Dee Brown, or even Johnny Damon.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:13 PM
Agreed. What I can't understand is why Callaspo can't make it on the field. I'm tired of hearing about Pena's defense. He is not the second coming Vizquel. He's a slightly above average SS. Couple that with no hitting...:shake:

Seitzer was on the radio the other day and he thought Callaspo could handle the position (coached him in Arizona), and the Royals gave up a legit prospect to get him, so what the heck?


I agree with all of that. The thing about Pena is that he will make some ridiculous plays that everyone will be ready to annoint him a gold glove shortstop, but he just makes dumb errors an inning later.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:16 PM
I agree with all of that. The thing about Pena is that he will make some ridiculous plays that everyone will be ready to annoint him a gold glove shortstop, but he just makes dumb errors an inning later.

And that's why he needs to sit. Some of the crap he does reminds me of Berroa. Dude could make a sliding stop deep in the hole to his right and come up gunning, but would muff the routine cherry hop hit to him the next inning.

The bottom line for me is that I don't know how a team wins consistently when it bats 8. The 9th can't even ****ing bunt, but the manager still calls upon him to do this AND hit and run!!! This happened in the last game of the Marlins series, too, with Butler running. Did a blind monkey make this decision?

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:19 PM
And that's why he needs to sit. Some of the crap he does reminds me of Berroa. Dude could make a sliding stop deep in the hole to his right and come up gunning, but would muff the routine cherry hop hit to him the next inning.

The bottom line for me is that I don't know how a team wins consistently when it bats 8. The 9th can't even ****ing bunt, but the manager still calls upon him to do this AND hit and run!!! This happened in the last game of the Marlins series, too, with Butler running. Did a blind monkey make this decision?


I know. And how in the hell does Pena not get pinch hit for in the 9th today against a no hitter? Hell, Teahan should have been hit for in the 8th against a lefty who was dealing.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:19 PM
I don't wanna ever see Pena or Teahen again, they have no offensive upside and are just flat suck, same with John Buck.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:21 PM
I know. And how in the hell does Pena not get pinch hit for in the 9th today against a no hitter? Hell, Teahan should have been hit for in the 8th against a lefty who was dealing.

I said the same thing in the game thread. As soon as the team got down 5, he should have been pulled.

If we had a really deep bench, Pena would be a great asset as a late inning defensive replacement. Nothing more. Beyond this, I have to admit that I don't really like the kid because of his dad's bullshit.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:21 PM
I don't wanna ever see Pena or Teahen again, they have no offensive upside and are just flat suck, same with John Buck.


John Buck is an average big league catcher.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:23 PM
John Buck is an average big league catcher.

That's being awfully nice...

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:24 PM
That's being awfully nice...


Or just realistic. It would be much easier to just hate all things KC and not be objective.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:26 PM
John Buck is an average big league catcher.

He might be, but I'm kind of with Mecca on this one. I don't see any upside with him. It's impossible for us to know how he handles the staff, so I won't comment here, but there are some things I do know.

1. Dude can't block. Never gets in correct position or squares up the ball and the 5 hole is always open. Watch Olivo block and then watch Buck try. No comparison.
2. Dude can't throw. Hasn't thrown out a runner all year. Pathetic.
3. Dude's power disappears, a la Teahen.

Buck would be a cool backup.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:28 PM
He might be, but I'm kind of with Mecca on this one. I don't see any upside with him. It's impossible for us to know how he handles the staff, so I won't comment here, but there are some things I do know.

1. Dude can't block. Never gets in correct position or squares up the ball and the 5 hole is always open. Watch Olivo block and then watch Buck try. No comparison.
2. Dude can't throw. Hasn't thrown out a runner all year. Pathetic.
3. Dude's power disappears, a la Teahen.

Buck would be a cool backup.


What are the ERAs when Buck catches as opposed to Olivo? Seems like Buck calls a better game.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:29 PM
John Buck batted 222 last year his career average is 238...his ok power doesn't make up for that..

If batting that low is average that's bad, you can only bat that low if you walk alot and hve 50 HR kind of power.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:30 PM
What are the ERAs when Buck catches as opposed to Olivo? Seems like Buck calls a better game.

Yeah that's a good point and this very well might be the case. This gets back to one of the original problems then. When you only bat 8, it's tough to have the luxury of a catcher that's only real strength is handling the pitchers. When the lineup improves, then Buck becomes an ok choice.

Ari Chi3fs
05-19-2008, 10:31 PM
I am waiting for the day that Bristol CT calls Mecca to have him work at ESPiN. Since Mecca knows all about all, he would fit right in.

*cough

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:31 PM
If batting that low is average that's bad, you can only bat that low if you walk alot and hve 50 HR kind of power.

Now you're just trying to stir up shit. Brady Anderson power?

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:32 PM
I am waiting for the day that Bristol CT calls Mecca to have him work at ESPiN. Since Mecca knows all about all, he would fit right in.

*cough

I'm atleast more entertaining than the people they have there.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:32 PM
Now you're just trying to stir up shit. Brady Anderson power?

Ok that made me laugh.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:33 PM
John Buck batted 222 last year his career average is 238...his ok power doesn't make up for that..

If batting that low is average that's bad, you can only bat that low if you walk alot and hve 50 HR kind of power.



His OPS was .738 in 2007, better than Ivan Rodriguez, AJ Pierzinski, Bengie Molina, Ramon Hernandez to name a few. He had the fifth most HRs for catchers in all of baseball.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:35 PM
I'm atleast more entertaining than the people they have there.

No you're not.

Valiant
05-19-2008, 10:35 PM
I keep on hearing that many sports reporters and baseball writers are coming close to calling both Butler and Gordon busts. With living out of state I do not get a chance to see enough of these two players to make a call. I have looked at their numbers and they seem to be doing okay to me. I do not see them as all stars just yet, but they are still young. I can see them also as being rushed through the Royal's System. I still would not go as far as to call either one of them busts. I think that might be a stretch. What do you guys think?

Outside media is saying that shit so the Royals get rid of them and then they can get them in their prime..

Tons of teams would love to have our busts..

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:35 PM
His OPS was .738 in 2007, better than Ivan Rodriguez, AJ Pierzinski, Bengie Molina, Ramon Hernandez to name a few. He had the fifth most HRs for catchers in all of baseball.

Of course the disappointing thing is that only 2 came after the break--his entire offensive stats were due to his hot start. Couldn't upseat Mac's homerun record after getting a quick 16 or so.

Checked stats. Actually Buck had 3 homers after the break.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:40 PM
Of course the disappointing thing is that only 2 came after the break--his entire offensive stats were due to his hot start. Couldn't upseat Mac's homerun record after getting a quick 16 or so.


True. But the beauty is they still count. Earlier in this thread Mecca was talking about how great Joey Votto was. He had one three homerun game this year. You take that game away and he is hitting .270 with 6 HRs and 17 RBIs. Gordon's numbers, who Mecca is calling a bust: .286 with 5 HRs and 20 RBIs. Can't take a good game or two in account for one player, and not another.

Valiant
05-19-2008, 10:41 PM
Alex Gordon was basically suppose to be what Ryan Braun is. And well he's been up awhile and he's not even close..

You also can't compare anything to Brett the game is different, in the 70's 25 HR's was a big deal, now everyone does that.

He is not Braun's level right now.. But to call somebody a bust after a year and a quarter is stupid..

Valiant
05-19-2008, 10:42 PM
He is just complete crap, if you can't consistently hit 300 with 30 HR's you can't be a starting AL corner outfielder you are a liability.

Wow, if you do not put up practically all star consideration numbers you are liability..

Valiant
05-19-2008, 10:44 PM
Notice how I brought out people who disagree.....sorry guys Mark Teahen sucks.

I agree with him sucking hard the last couple years since his breakout.. But to say you need to bat .300, 30hrs is dumb..

And yeah we should get rid of him, he has shown no improvement lately.. NOt even a little...

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:44 PM
He is not Braun's level right now.. But to call somebody a bust after a year and a quarter is stupid..


He also says "everyone hits 25 HRs now," when in 2007 a grand total of 16 players in the AL hit 25 or more HRs. SIXTEEN.

Adept Havelock
05-19-2008, 10:44 PM
Ok Guillen is fine, he shouldn't be your offensive centerpiece but he's a good complimentary player.

I have no faith in what Gordon will be, I've seen way to many guys with huge hype come up on this team and be complete shit.

Well, considering your 30/.300 bulls*it, I'm not too inclined to put much stock in your "faith". LMAO

With a backpedal like that, they ought to move you to DB, though on any decent team you'd be a backup. :p

Yeah, the Royals need to improve. From where I'm sitting, they are. Would I like it to be quicker? Sure.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:44 PM
True. But the beauty is they still count. Earlier in this thread Mecca was talking about how great Joey Votto was. He had one three homerun game this year. You take that game away and he is hitting .270 with 6 HRs and 17 RBIs. Gordon's numbers, who Mecca is calling a bust: .286 with 5 HRs and 20 RBIs. Can't take a good game or two in account for one player, and not another.

Agreed. But with Buck we're talking about a prolonged period, and when a trend starts to happen that's when it's easy to start to question which is the real indicator of the player's ability. Is Buck the pre-break or the post-break player? Same thing with Teahen, without his production in the second half of '06, I don't think he's even on the team right now, but he's never come close to that again. It's tough not to be frustrated with the inconsistency, and that's why I can't blame folks like Mecca who never want to see the Bucks, Teahens, and Penas again.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:46 PM
Agreed. But with Buck we're talking about a prolonged period, and when a trend starts to happen that's when it's easy to start to question which is the real indicator of the player's ability. Is Buck the pre-break or the post-break player? Same thing with Teahen, without his production in the second half of '06, I don't think he's even on the team right now, but he's never come close to that again. It's tough not to be frustrated with the inconsistency.


I agree 100% on Teahen, he really doesn't bring anything to the table offensively or defensively. Buck does however, IMO.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:48 PM
Agreed. But with Buck we're talking about a prolonged period, and when a trend starts to happen that's when it's easy to start to question which is the real indicator of the player's ability. Is Buck the pre-break or the post-break player? Same thing with Teahen, without his production in the second half of '06, I don't think he's even on the team right now, but he's never come close to that again. It's tough not to be frustrated with the inconsistency, and that's why I can't blame folks like Mecca who never want to see the Bucks, Teahens, and Penas again.


It's not that I "blame" guys like Mecca, but to say 30 HR guys are just all over the place to be had is just ludicrous. He acts like it should just be so automatic that we have 60+ HRs in our corner outfielders when that just isn't close to reality.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:49 PM
I agree 100% on Teahan, he really doesn't bring anything to the table offensively or defensively. Buck does however, IMO.

I wonder what would have happened, though, if the organization left Teahen at 3B. Just when he put everything together, they make him switch, and then switch again, and then switch back. Yet another potentially decent player perhaps ruined by the Royals.

Gordon to play 1B, which I'm sure you've heard the "experts" discuss.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:50 PM
It's not that I "blame" guys like Mecca, but to say 30 HR guys are just all over the place to be had is just ludicrous. He acts like it should just be so automatic that we have 60+ HRs in our corner outfielders when that just isn't close to reality.

Right, he's talking in hyperbole, in part to get a reaction, I suppose. But the underlying sentiment of his comments is something that we all agree with. Power good. Royals no get power bad.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:51 PM
I remember when people acted like Teahen would be a cornerstone player...and the Royals have to find a player who can go 300 and 30 and most likely it will be a corner outfielder.

Valiant
05-19-2008, 10:51 PM
The point Mecca's trying to make is correct, however. A team must have power at the corners. During that last game of the Marlins series, the announcers said it was Teahen's first homer in something like 120-140 AB's. That's pathetic. If you don't even have the hint of power in the outfield, your team is screwed.

Guillen's been on fire, but I think some of the joy at seeing this is because Royals fans are so shocked to see a Major Leaguer with actual Major League power. A novel idea.

Agree, The Teahan project has ran its course.. Wonder if Bonds fat ass can play outfield still??

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:51 PM
It's not that I "blame" guys like Mecca, but to say 30 HR guys are just all over the place to be had is just ludicrous. He acts like it should just be so automatic that we have 60+ HRs in our corner outfielders when that just isn't close to reality.

If you're CF is a guy with no power that leaves you without much choice..

You need to get roughly 70-80 HRs out of your OF.

doomy3
05-19-2008, 10:53 PM
If you're CF is a guy with no power that leaves you without much choice..

You need to get roughly 70-80 HRs out of your OF.


What teams have that?

Adept Havelock
05-19-2008, 10:53 PM
It's not that I "blame" guys like Mecca, but to say 30 HR guys are just all over the place to be had is just ludicrous. He acts like it should just be so automatic that we have 60+ HRs in our corner outfielders when that just isn't close to reality.

He's a fan of Lake Wobegon style baseball, where all the outfielders hit for HOF power, all the infielders are good for 25 HR's a year, and all the pitchers are above average. :rolleyes:

Right, he's talking in hyperbole, in part to get a reaction, I suppose.

Mecca's schtick defined visually:

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:55 PM
Agree, The Teahan project has ran its course.. Wonder if Bonds fat ass can play outfield still??

The irony though is that I want the Royals to keep Teahen, but as a 4th/5th outfielder. I think he's a great guy to have on the bench, especially to have as a pinch runner late in games. Guy knows how to run the bases.

I look at him in the same way that I look at Meche. If he's your ace, your team going nowhere fast. If he's your #3 or, better yet, #4, you're in real good shape.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 10:55 PM
What teams have that?

I'm also talking in the area that the Royals get no production from their infield, that number lowers if you have infield production.

If the Royals had an even average power producing 1st baseman the OF numbers could come down some.

Valiant
05-19-2008, 10:58 PM
The irony though is that I want the Royals to keep Teahen, but as a 4th/5th outfielder. I think he's a great guy to have on the bench, especially to have as a pinch runner late in games. Guy knows how to run the bases.

I look at him in the same way that I look at Meche. If he's your ace, your team going nowhere fast. If he's your #3 or, better yet, #4, you're in real good shape.

That would be awesome if we had a team that had enough talent that have Meche at 3 and Teahan as a 5th option.. That team would be a playoff contender..

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 10:58 PM
The funny thing is the lack of power for the Royals is going to get amplified when teams decide that they absolutely won't pitch to Guillen. I can't believe the Marlins kept allowing him to beat them. If he doesn't have an outstanding series, the Royals probably don't win. Why let one guy do that to you?

Regarding Bonds, dude can still hit. We don't have that. I like wins. Bring it on.

Adept Havelock
05-19-2008, 11:00 PM
That would be awesome if we had a team that had enough talent that have Meche at 3 and Teahan as a 5th option.. That team would be a playoff contender..

If Banny and Zach keep developing, we might have that in the rotation.

We've got a long way to go to put Teahan 5th.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 11:00 PM
That would be awesome if we had a team that had enough talent that have Meche at 3 and Teahan as a 5th option.. That team would be a playoff contender..

Exactly. And that's what this team must become and frankly what the fans must demand. We've been served all this small-market bullshit for so long that it seems like the above is a pipe dream. It isn't, though. It's what a real Major League team looks like.

tk13
05-19-2008, 11:01 PM
The beauty of baseball is there is no one defined way to win. I think the most important thing is to have a philosophy, and do it well. I don't think it's necessarily important to get X number of stats out of every position, although the conventional thinking is power at the corners and defense up the middle, and that's a good strategy.

But for every person that claims to know the way to win, there will probably be an exception to prove them wrong. You could take teams like the White Sox, Marlins, or Rockies last year who had speed at the top of the order... or a Cardinals and Angels team that had probably one or two elite offensive players, and scrappy guys like Eckstein, Adam Kennedy, and Ronnie Belliard in the middle infield.

The one constant in all of it though, is starting pitching. The Red Sox won with Beckett, Schilling, and Dice-K... the Cardinals won behind Carpenter and company, the White Sox had a killer rotation in the playoffs. The Marlins had Beckett, Penny, etc... the D'Backs had Johnson/Schilling. You can find other variables that differ... from teams that build around guys like Scott Podsednik and Willy Taveras to guys like David Eckstein.... but all these teams have elite, elite starting pitching. That's why teams like the Reds will never get anywhere until they have 2-3 top flight starters.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 11:02 PM
If Banny and Zach keep developing, we might have that in the rotation.

We've got a long way to go to put Teahan 5th.

Bannister is a back of the rotation pitcher, he pitches to contact it's why he gets rocked sometimes it's just the law of averages. You don't get a ton of strikeouts you have to be perfect otherwise your looking at rock city.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 11:03 PM
If Banny and Zach keep developing, we might have that in the rotation.

We've got a long way to go to put Teahan 5th.

Don't go that far. He could be a serviceable 4th. DeJesus in CF (which I'm not crazy about), Guillen in RF, and go get a LF who can rake. Add a legit bat as a DH, and now the lineup is completely different.

I think we're two Major-League bats away from a contending lineup or one Pujols-type bat away.

Adept Havelock
05-19-2008, 11:04 PM
Bannister is a back of the rotation pitcher, he pitches to contact it's why he gets rocked sometimes it's just the law of averages. You don't get a ton of strikeouts you have to be perfect otherwise your looking at rock city.

Hence my qualifier "if he keeps developing (read as improving)".

Enjoy your Lake Wobegon baseball dreams. The rest of us will deal with the league as it really is.

Don't go that far. He could be a serviceable 4th. DeJesus in CF (which I'm not crazy about), Guillen in RF, and go get a LF who can rake. Add a legit bat as a DH, and now the lineup is completely different.

I think we're two Major-League bats away from a contending lineup or one Pujols-type bat away.

:hmmm:

Put that way, you may well be right. I'd love to see it.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 11:04 PM
The beauty of baseball is there is no one defined way to win. I think the most important thing is to have a philosophy, and do it well. I don't think it's necessarily important to get X number of stats out of every position, although the conventional thinking is power at the corners and defense up the middle, and that's a good strategy.

But for every person that claims to know the way to win, there will probably be an exception to prove them wrong. You could take teams like the White Sox, Marlins, or Rockies last year who had speed at the top of the order... or a Cardinals and Angels team that had probably one or two elite offensive players, and scrappy guys like Eckstein, Adam Kennedy, and Ronnie Belliard in the middle infield.

The one constant in all of it though, is starting pitching. The Red Sox won with Beckett, Schilling, and Dice-K... the Cardinals won behind Carpenter and company, the White Sox had a killer rotation in the playoffs. The Marlins had Beckett, Penny, etc... the D'Backs had Johnson/Schilling. You can find other variables that differ... from teams that build around guys like Scott Podsednik and Willy Taveras to guys like David Eckstein.... but all these teams have elite, elite starting pitching. That's why teams like the Reds will never get anywhere until they have 2-3 top flight starters.

Everyone one of those teams also has/had atleast 1 elite offensive player atleast for the said season.

Like the Rockies sure they had speed but um they had Matt Holliday who is a ridiculous bat.

BWillie
05-19-2008, 11:06 PM
Why do you think Teahen is so bad? He's a solid guy you want in your line up. He'll hit .290, 10-15 jacks, great fielder, lead AL in assists last year, walks, great base-runner. He is money ball and he'll be a cheap player of value.


You guys really need to save it for Butler too. The guy turned 22 years old less than a month ago. He has plenty of time to develop power. If he turns into a Tony Gwynn type guy, big deal. Bottom line is you aren't going to hit homers at Kaufman, it just doesn't happen. There is not a player out there besides Bonds that would of hit 45 homers playing at Kaufman all year. Butler hit's an assload of doubles because he goes opposite field in the gap where it's deep in Kaufman. Gordon has taken a great leap this year. Guys are going to continue to get better. The jury is still out.

In Bond's first two complete years in the league he batted like .233 with 19 homers a year. Give them time before you consider them busts

Mecca
05-19-2008, 11:08 PM
Mark Teahen hit 15 Hr's..are you high?

tk13
05-19-2008, 11:08 PM
Everyone one of those teams also has/had atleast 1 elite offensive player atleast for the said season.

Like the Rockies sure they had speed but um they had Matt Holliday who is a ridiculous bat.
Pitching always beats offense. Always. Always. Always. You can sit here until you are blue in the face and make 1000 posts. I will win this argument everytime, easily. It's not even up for discussion. That doesn't mean you can be a bad offense. You can't. But the most important thing on a baseball team in the starting pitching. I'll take my team with 4 good starters and a closer, and you take the Cincinnati Reds and their usual offensive juggernaut. And I will destroy you. Like the Cardinals/Cubs/Brewers/Astros do every year.

Adept Havelock
05-19-2008, 11:09 PM
Mark Teahen hit 15 Hr's..are you high?

The average corner outfield hitting .300/30? Are you?

He hit 18 in '06. What has been done once, can be done again. He's proved he is capable.

Is it likely? I don't think so. Is it possible to think so without taking drugs? Sure.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 11:10 PM
Pitching always beats offense. Always. Always. Always. You can sit here until you are blue in the face and make 1000 posts. I will win this argument everytime, easily. It's not even up for discussion. That doesn't mean you can be a bad offense. You can't. But the most important thing on a baseball team in the starting pitching. I'll take my team with 4 good starters and a closer, and you take the Cincinnati Reds and their usual offensive juggernaut. And I will destroy you. Like the Cardinals/Cubs/Brewers/Astros do every year.

The Reds have some young pitchers, but I was just using them as an example of a team that has bats aswell.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 11:10 PM
:hmmm:

Put that way, you may well be right. I'd love to see it.

Me too. This is all predicated on the fact that Glass has to spend some money, and until I see this happen, I'm claiming same old Royals.

When payroll equals what the team takes in in revenue sharing (70-80 mil. this year, which is worth repeating because it's ****ing disgusting that this year's payroll is around 55-65, depending on the numbers cited) I'll start to believe. But when Dayton Moore keeps saying stuff like, "Attendance needs to be around 2.5 mil. for payroll to go up." I get skeptical really quickly.

Not drinking the Kool-Aid, yet.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 11:10 PM
The average corner outfield hitting .300/30? Are you?

The Royals have to have a player who does that, if you expect them to consistently win games anyway.

Adept Havelock
05-19-2008, 11:11 PM
The Royals have to have a player who does that, if you expect them to consistently win games anyway.

And he continues to backpedal. LMAO

Adept Havelock
05-19-2008, 11:12 PM
Me too. This is all predicated on the fact that Glass has to spend some money, and until I see this happen, I'm claiming same old Royals.

When payroll equals what the team takes in in revenue sharing (70-80 mil. this year, which is worth repeating because it's ****ing disgusting that this year's payroll is around 55-65, depending on the numbers cited) I'll start to believe. But when Dayton Moore keeps saying stuff like, "Attendance needs to be around 2.5 mil. for payroll to go up." I get skeptical really quickly.

Not drinking the Kool-Aid, yet.

I'm skeptical, but I've got more hope than I've had since Mr. K died. Hell, I've been a Chiefs fan since they've been in KC...what else do I have? :)

Dayton's impressed me so far with his ability to put together pitching...I'm hoping he has the same touch with reviving our godawful farm system, but it will take longer to see results there.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 11:14 PM
And he continues to backpedal. LMAO

Alright nevermind, we can contend with no offense.

Actually the team that makes me mad is Tampa Bay now that is a young talented team where you can see the future stars just lined up.

Short Leash Hootie
05-19-2008, 11:14 PM
Alright because there was a bit of an odd coincidence of guys not producing at typical levels like say Manny Ramirez that means I have no clue what I'm talking about.....you need atleast 1 serious run production bat in the outfield.

so every team should have two Manny Ramirez's?

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 11:15 PM
I'm skeptical, but I've got more hope than I've had since Mr. K died. Hell, I've been a Chiefs fan since they've been in KC...what else do I have? :)

I'm hopeful, too. But I get pissed at Glass apologists (not saying you're one)when they cite the Meche signing and the Guillen signing as evidence of a big philosophical change in the organization. That's great, but it takes more than this. What would payroll be if they hadn't signed these guys? We have to field a team, right?

Mecca
05-19-2008, 11:15 PM
so every team should have two Manny Ramirez's?

You better have 1 and you better have another guy who produces at a "good level" and when I say good level that means better than Mark Teahen.

BWillie
05-19-2008, 11:15 PM
Mark Teahen hit 15 Hr's..are you high?

He hit 17 two years ago in half a year. I don't think 10-15 Hr's isn't something thats beyond reach at all as an everyday player.

Adept Havelock
05-19-2008, 11:16 PM
He hit 17 two years ago in half a year. I don't think 10-15 Hr's isn't something thats beyond reach at all as an everyday player.

I mentioned that. Like any point that is contrary to his Lake Wobegon ideal vision, he ignores it.

Alright nevermind, we can contend with no offense.
ROFL Show me where I suggested that. Having had your stat claims thrown back in your face as the BS they are, now you result to putting words in other peoples mouths. Pathetic. Even GOATSE handles it better than you do.


Actually the team that makes me mad is Tampa Bay now that is a young talented team where you can see the future stars just lined up.
We had a s**t farm system for over a decade. You don't fix that in less than a couple of years. :shrug:

You better have 1 and you better have another guy who produces at a "good level" and when I say good level that means better than Mark Teahen.

Agreed. At least you're no longer claiming you need two .300/30 guys in the corners just to be average.

I'm hopeful, too. But I get pissed at Glass apologists (not saying you're one)when they cite the Meche signing and the Guillen signing as evidence of a big philosophical change in the organization. That's great, but it takes more than this. What would payroll be if they hadn't signed these guys? We have to field a team, right?

I'm still very skeptical of Mr. Glass. For me the first test will be if he spends money to lock up a few other players as he did Soria, and how he spends this coming offseason.


You folks have a nice night. I've got to turn in. :)

Mecca
05-19-2008, 11:16 PM
He hit 17 two years ago in half a year. I don't think 10-15 Hr's isn't something thats beyond reach at all as an everyday player.

2 years ago is gone, that is not what he is. He just has no power. If Mark Teahen played 2nd base his offense would be considered not a big deal in the OF it's an issue.

tk13
05-19-2008, 11:18 PM
Me too. This is all predicated on the fact that Glass has to spend some money, and until I see this happen, I'm claiming same old Royals.

When payroll equals what the team takes in in revenue sharing (70-80 mil. this year, which is worth repeating because it's ****ing disgusting that this year's payroll is around 55-65, depending on the numbers cited) I'll start to believe. But when Dayton Moore keeps saying stuff like, "Attendance needs to be around 2.5 mil. for payroll to go up." I get skeptical really quickly.

Not drinking the Kool-Aid, yet.
You gotta think fourth dimensionally, Marty. We offered Torri Hunter the highest contract offer of anyone until the Angels swooped in at the last minute and offered 18 million a year. Then we had the largest offer on the table for Kuroda and he took less money to play in LA. This is not speculation, this is not conjecture, this is fact.

If we'd signed the FA's we'd targeted, the payroll would be 10-20+ million dollars more than it is now, and that's after signing Guillen... with it likely going up further this coming offseason. The fact that we chose not to spend that money on garbage when our preferred targeted FA's fell through is not cheap, or stupid. It's way better than wasting money on guys like Scott Elarton just to say "oh shucks, we have a staff ace with an 8.79 ERA, but at least Glass spent some money on free agents!"

Mecca
05-19-2008, 11:18 PM
ROFL Show me where I suggested that. Having had your stat claims thrown back in your face as the BS they are, now you result to putting words in other peoples mouths. Pathetic. Even GOATSE handles it better than you do.


We had a s**t farm system for over a decade. You don't fix that in less than a year and a half. :shrug:

I'm telling you that you need guys that can hit, I'm picking the OF because it's the most likely spot to find them.

This team has to find power, where that be in the OF or at 1st base they need someone who is a legit bat.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 11:22 PM
You gotta think fourth dimensionally, Marty. We offered Torri Hunter the highest contract offer of anyone until the Angels swooped in at the last minute and offered 18 million a year. Then we had the largest offer on the table for Kuroda and he took less money to play in LA. This is not speculation, this is not conjecture, this is fact.

If we'd signed the FA's we'd targeted, the payroll would be 10-20+ million dollars more than it is now, and that's after signing Guillen... with it likely going up further this coming offseason. The fact that we chose not to spend that money on garbage when our preferred targeted FA's fell through is not cheap, or stupid. It's way better than wasting money on guys like Scott Elarton just to say "oh shucks, we have a staff ace with an 8.79 ERA, but at least Glass spent some money on free agents!"

I don't want the team to spend for spending sake.

But let's not bullshit about the efforts to get Hunter. Yeah, the Royals put together a real deal, but, in the current market, is 18 per really a mind-blowing amount for Hunter? When you're the laughing-stock Royals, you have to be the ones setting the bar. You can't try to get a "deal" or a contract that's "pretty decent." The first major signing is going to be a screw job. Same thing with Pudge in Detroit. He went there after they lost 120 games. They had to pay out the ass to get a legit guy.

To say that it's likely going up is being hopeful. It needs to go up a lot. We need to be at 85-95 mil.

Mecca
05-19-2008, 11:27 PM
The Royals after this year have to pursue legit bats like Dunn, even if it means trying to trade for them so they can sign him long term then.

tk13
05-19-2008, 11:34 PM
I don't want the team to spend for spending sake.

But let's not bullshit about the efforts to get Hunter. Yeah, the Royals put together a real deal, but, in the current market, is 18 per really a mind-blowing amount for Hunter? When you're the laughing-stock Royals, you have to be the ones setting the bar. You can't try to get a "deal" or a contract that's "pretty decent." The first major signing is going to be a screw job. Same thing with Pudge in Detroit. He went there after they lost 120 games. They had to pay out the ass to get a legit guy.

To say that it's likely going up is being hopeful. It needs to go up a lot. We need to be at 85-95 mil.
And we did pay out the wazoo for Guillen and Meche. We obviously set a limit... and we weren't paying 20 million a year for Hunter. You really think he's worth that? The people saying that would be the same ones complaining that we were paying a 37 year old Jim Edmonds-like CF 20 million dollars. I think it's fairly clear they are willing to overpay if they think it's a good value. Teams like the Indians, A's, D-Backs didn't get where they are by making moves like that. You have to save those contracts for the guys you develop. If Greinke turns into the ace he can be, you give him that money, not a player in his mid-30's.

And none of this is taking into account that we offered double digit money to Kuroda, a short double digit-deal to Andruw Jones, about $8 million or so a year to Miguel Batista last year. You just aren't going to sign every FA you target, even if you offer the most money, like we did with Kuroda.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 11:47 PM
And we did pay out the wazoo for Guillen and Meche. We obviously set a limit... and we weren't paying 20 million a year for Hunter. You really think he's worth that? The people saying that would be the same ones complaining that we were paying a 37 year old Jim Edmonds-like CF 20 million dollars. I think it's fairly clear they are willing to overpay if they think it's a good value. Teams like the Indians, A's, D-Backs didn't get where they are by making moves like that. You have to save those contracts for the guys you develop. If Greinke turns into the ace he can be, you give him that money, not a player in his mid-30's.

And none of this is taking into account that we offered double digit money to Kuroda, a short double digit-deal to Andruw Jones, about $8 million or so a year to Miguel Batista last year. You just aren't going to sign every FA you target, even if you offer the most money, like we did with Kuroda.


You're right that we overpaid for Meche and Guillen, but my deal is this. The Royals should have been the ones offering the 18 mil. first. Make someone else decide if he's worth 20 per, which I don't think he is. Force someone else into a difficult decision. The Royals can't just pay slightly more than the other guy. According to all sources, Hunter was the team's primary target. If this was true, they should have gone and gotten the guy, period. For the sake of argument, let's say they went 20, what's 2 mil. more per for a ML team? I don't give a flip about Glass's bank account.

Obviously I'm somewhat of a jaded Royals fan. At this point, all the speculation about what the Royals tried to do means very little to me. Until I see actual results, I won't believe. Can anyone really approach the Glass family any differently?

Regarding developing players, you also have to be willing to draft the best prospects, regardless of the contract demands. Are the Royals willing to do this? Why did they pass on Miller and Porcello? If it's signability, same old Royals.

DeezNutz
05-19-2008, 11:51 PM
One last thought, you're right that we can't sign everyone we target. Never going to happen. But until there is a break-through signing, the type of player that makes everyone take notice of the Royals as a serious team that wants to win, trying to get anyone becomes a major challenge. Meche and Guillen, although good pieces to have, didn't accomplish this. A Hunter-type signing would. If you end up eating some money on the back end, consider it your penance for being a worthless, cheap SOB for too many years.

beavis
05-20-2008, 04:32 AM
You know, I'd heard people complain about Mecca before, but never really understood why. After reading halfway through this thread, I get it.

cookster50
05-20-2008, 05:26 AM
Glenn Dorsey is a bust, he has what, 0 sacks and 0 tackles?

KCUnited
05-20-2008, 05:38 AM
Matt Joyce. Now that guy was a tough out to get. Thats the problem with the Royals, we don't have anyone at the plate that is a tough out to get.

SCTrojan
05-20-2008, 05:49 AM
Agreed. What I can't understand is why Callaspo can't make it on the field. I'm tired of hearing about Pena's defense. He is not the second coming Vizquel. He's a slightly above average SS. Couple that with no hitting...:shake:



TPJ had twice as many errors as hits in the Marlins series. That's not counting the bad throw on a potential inning-ending double play ball that was generously ruled as a fielder's choice.

That's Berroa-esque without the run production.

alanm
05-20-2008, 06:53 AM
The beauty of baseball is there is no one defined way to win. I think the most important thing is to have a philosophy, and do it well. I don't think it's necessarily important to get X number of stats out of every position, although the conventional thinking is power at the corners and defense up the middle, and that's a good strategy.

But for every person that claims to know the way to win, there will probably be an exception to prove them wrong. You could take teams like the White Sox, Marlins, or Rockies last year who had speed at the top of the order... or a Cardinals and Angels team that had probably one or two elite offensive players, and scrappy guys like Eckstein, Adam Kennedy, and Ronnie Belliard in the middle infield.

The one constant in all of it though, is starting pitching. The Red Sox won with Beckett, Schilling, and Dice-K... the Cardinals won behind Carpenter and company, the White Sox had a killer rotation in the playoffs. The Marlins had Beckett, Penny, etc... the D'Backs had Johnson/Schilling. You can find other variables that differ... from teams that build around guys like Scott Podsednik and Willy Taveras to guys like David Eckstein.... but all these teams have elite, elite starting pitching. That's why teams like the Reds will never get anywhere until they have 2-3 top flight starters.
The Rockies have no where near elite pitching. Aaron Cook and Jeff Francis is about all they have and those two are slightly better than average. And Francis is blowing chunks this season so far. Where they excelled at last year was at the plate. This year their not off to a good start in either area and as a result their mired near last place.

alanm
05-20-2008, 07:00 AM
Pitching always beats offense. Always. Always. Always. You can sit here until you are blue in the face and make 1000 posts. I will win this argument everytime, easily. It's not even up for discussion. That doesn't mean you can be a bad offense. You can't. But the most important thing on a baseball team in the starting pitching. I'll take my team with 4 good starters and a closer, and you take the Cincinnati Reds and their usual offensive juggernaut. And I will destroy you. Like the Cardinals/Cubs/Brewers/Astros do every year.
That's the undeniable truth in baseball. Like defense wins championships in football.

alanm
05-20-2008, 07:09 AM
You know, I'd heard people complain about Mecca before, but never really understood why. After reading halfway through this thread, I get it.Usually it's because he gives off this impression. :spock:

Sam Hall
05-20-2008, 10:20 AM
I'm not worried about Gordon because I like his swing. The one thing that worries me about Butler is his weight.

duncan_idaho
05-20-2008, 11:00 AM
Regarding developing players, you also have to be willing to draft the best prospects, regardless of the contract demands. Are the Royals willing to do this? Why did they pass on Miller and Porcello? If it's signability, same old Royals.

Miller and Porcello were not clear and away "best" talents that were sure-fire all-stars... there were legit reasons to pass on both.

There were/are concerns about Miller's mechanics and repeatability because of his height. Porcello was a high-school pitcher (who also happened to be represented by Scott Boras), which is by far the least sure bet when it comes to the draft.

So far, the only pitcher the Royals passed on who really looks better than Hochevar is Lincecum (and you can still claim durability concerns with him).

DeezNutz
05-20-2008, 11:20 AM
Miller and Porcello were not clear and away "best" talents that were sure-fire all-stars... there were legit reasons to pass on both.

There were/are concerns about Miller's mechanics and repeatability because of his height. Porcello was a high-school pitcher (who also happened to be represented by Scott Boras), which is by far the least sure bet when it comes to the draft.

So far, the only pitcher the Royals passed on who really looks better than Hochevar is Lincecum (and you can still claim durability concerns with him).


Neither of these players were in the Ken Griffey category, you're right. But they were widely regarded as the top players where the Royals were drafting in their individual draft classes.

If the Royals passed for concerns other than $, that's cool, but I don't believe for one second that the $ didn't affect the decision. Porcello is a high-risk high-reward pick, but I guess the Royals have too many potential front-line starters in the pipe, so I understand why they passed.

If Moosetacos is the next great hitter, this decision will be brilliant, but I want the team to take, consistently, the best available talent. No more Colt Griffen's (sp?) or Lubanski's just because they'll sign.

Sure-Oz
05-20-2008, 11:39 AM
I think the Royals got a bright future ahead of them....

We have good pitching that probably will get better but i do agree we need a power guy. We have solid doubles hitters if that...
We did make a ton of effort in the offseason so we can't use that as an excuse. I am hoping Gordon and Butler pan out to be solid 100 rbi guys...that is all we can ask. Butler is scaring me this season because he doesn't look like an Edgar Martinez type like he did last year. Teahan, well i don't know what he is to this team, he's definetly got a good arm in RF, but thats it.

Gordon i hope turns to 30 hr 100 rbi guy and Butler for a 20 hr 100 rbi guy, these guys are a huge part of the development, Gordon has already improved but it will take some more time. Its too bad he isnt assraping pitching like Ryan Braun, which is a superstar already. I would love for the royals to have a breakout rookie or whatever soon, kind've like Beltran, but more power please!

Sure-Oz
05-20-2008, 11:40 AM
Neither of these players were in the Ken Griffey category, you're right. But they were widely regarded as the top players where the Royals were drafting in their individual draft classes.

If the Royals passed for concerns other than $, that's cool, but I don't believe for one second that the $ didn't affect the decision. Porcello is a high-risk high-reward pick, but I guess the Royals have too many potential front-line starters in the pipe, so I understand why they passed.

If Moosetacos is the next great hitter, this decision will be brilliant, but I want the team to take, consistently, the best available talent. No more Colt Griffen's (sp?) or Lubanski's just because they'll sign.

Colt Griffin was one of the biggest mistakes ever, he was beyond a project...."Wow a hs'er that can THROW 100 mph" hence throw, he couldn't pitch worth shit....the previous drafts have killed this team for sure. I have high hopes for Moose! I really don't know what to think of Hochevar either, he just looks average out there so far, but im very impatient too

Ari Chi3fs
05-20-2008, 11:46 AM
for those of you who care, the Royals No Hitter is being replayed on FoxSportsKC!!!1

Coach
05-20-2008, 12:36 PM
The Royals after this year have to pursue legit bats like Dunn, even if it means trying to trade for them so they can sign him long term then.

Dunn's a liability at outfield. While his OBP is very nice, he strikes out way too much. Not to mention that his batting average has been iffy at best.

I'd pass.

Sure-Oz
05-20-2008, 07:37 PM
BUSTler 0-4 strikes out with the basesloaded in the 8th

Gordon 3-3 2 doubles and a walk

Royals down 2-1...in the 8th

doomy3
05-20-2008, 09:22 PM
Miller and Porcello were not clear and away "best" talents that were sure-fire all-stars... there were legit reasons to pass on both.

There were/are concerns about Miller's mechanics and repeatability because of his height. Porcello was a high-school pitcher (who also happened to be represented by Scott Boras), which is by far the least sure bet when it comes to the draft.

So far, the only pitcher the Royals passed on who really looks better than Hochevar is Lincecum (and you can still claim durability concerns with him).


You must have missed the thread where Mecca informed us all that there are no durability concerns with Lincecum because his Dad was a gymnast. Gymnast's kids are apparently invincible.

Mecca
05-20-2008, 09:31 PM
Dunn's a liability at outfield. While his OBP is very nice, he strikes out way too much. Not to mention that his batting average has been iffy at best.

I'd pass.

Adam Dunn would play 1st base in my world, he has experience there....OPB is way more important than average when his OPB is that high with his power his K's and average don't matter he's hitting with power and getting on base.

DeezNutz
05-20-2008, 09:31 PM
Adam Dunn would play 1st base in my world, he has experience there....

Or better yet, DH.

Mecca
05-20-2008, 09:33 PM
Or better yet, DH.

I think Dunn is better in the field than Butler atleast....Dunn and Butler as your 1st/Dh combo would be pretty solid.

DeezNutz
05-20-2008, 09:37 PM
I think Dunn is better in the field than Butler atleast....Dunn and Butler as your 1st/Dh combo would be pretty solid.

1B is a good place to hide the fat kid, so I'm cool with it. Actually, I've been surprised that Butler has been as decent over there as he has been.

ChiefsCountry
05-20-2008, 09:37 PM
Actually Dunn makes alot of sense for the Royals as a 1st/DH type.

Sure-Oz
05-20-2008, 10:10 PM
Guy's i think Dunn makes sense as a 1b/DH

....seriously though, i wonder if we'll make a run at the big donkey

duncan_idaho
05-20-2008, 11:02 PM
I say no thanks to Dunn... as a run producer, he's pretty average for the price you're going to pay for him. His strikeout rate is ridiculous, and the guy has hit 19 sacrifice flies in his CAREER.

He hits a lot of home runs and gets on base, so his numbers look pretty, but I doubt he's ever the linchpin of the lineup for a playoff team...