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View Full Version : Music Fans Rip Metallica a New One


BIG_DADDY
05-29-2008, 04:26 PM
http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/05/will-metallica.html

chasedude
05-29-2008, 04:32 PM
Yeah I heard the other day they were putting out a new CD.

After "And Justice for All..." I lost my taste for them. St Anger was just horrible!!

little jacob
05-29-2008, 04:43 PM
they have been sucking sh@$ for 20 years now

Bowser
05-29-2008, 05:35 PM
Yeah. My wife and I have had the 'pleasure' of having Metallica's lawyers jump on us. Our crime? My wife made a set of FREE button sets that you could use online. They were pink. They were shiny. She called them "Rose Metallica".

We ended up renaming the set "Loser 80s Hair Band". No lawyers have called us about it since then.
LMAO

mdstu
05-29-2008, 06:22 PM
They finally figured it out.

Stop making music worth listening to and people will stop illegally downloading it.

Lzen
05-30-2008, 09:08 AM
Metallica has sucked since the mid 90s. They are the definition of sellouts.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-30-2008, 04:49 PM
Yeah, **** em. They sold out, then they sold us out. They can eat shit. I don't even listen to their old stuff anymore. They've been snuffed from my music collection.

DaneMcCloud
05-30-2008, 05:08 PM
I'm going on record saying their new album will be kick ass.

Rick Rubin is producing and has been very firm with them as far as direction. It's going to be closer to "Master of Puppets" than anything they did in the 90's.

Robert Trujillo is by far the best bassist they've had in the band. He's a monster talent which will allow them to really stretch out.

Expect many of the songs to be over 8 minutes long.

Their association with Bob Rock should have ended after "Load".

Deberg_1990
05-30-2008, 06:57 PM
I'm going on record saying their new album will be kick ass.

Rick Rubin is producing and has been very firm with them as far as direction. It's going to be closer to "Master of Puppets" than anything they did in the 90's.

Robert Trujillo is by far the best bassist they've had in the band. He's a monster talent which will allow them to really stretch out.

Expect many of the songs to be over 8 minutes long.

Their association with Bob Rock should have ended after "Load".

Now, i love Rick Rubin as a producer, but i honestly dont think they will ever be as good as they were in the 80's again.

I think most rock bands lose their "edge" as they get older. Thats just a part of life.

Nightwish
05-30-2008, 08:38 PM
I'm going on record saying their new album will be kick ass.

Rick Rubin is producing and has been very firm with them as far as direction. It's going to be closer to "Master of Puppets" than anything they did in the 90's.
I hope that turns out to be true. I agree about Rob Trujillo, he is a helluva bassist when he's allowed to be. I loved him with both Infectious Grooves and Suicidal Tendencies. My concern is that, as far as the whole "closer to MoP than anything they did in the 90s" thing, that's what they said about St. Anger, and we all know how far off the mark that turned out to be. On the other hand, I like Rick Rubin, and if they're working with him ... and listening to him (that's the big thing) ... it's a good sign.

Let's just hope they really have learned their lesson, really have decided to turn back to their old fanbase, and that this isn't just another publicity stunt. When they toured ahead of St. Anger, doing nothing but their 80s material, I got my hopes up, only to have them shattered when the cd came out. Let's pray this isn't a repeat.

Spott
05-30-2008, 09:08 PM
Metallica really started to go downhill after Cliff died. And Justice for All was the last decent album this band had before they sold out and let Lars take over.

Nightwish
05-31-2008, 01:48 AM
Metallica really started to go downhill after Cliff died. And Justice for All was the last decent album this band had before they sold out and let Lars take over.
Personally, I'd name "Load" as the album that began to herald a serious decline. The Black album was a big departure in sound and style, but it was still a pretty decent and solid album. That was their last good album, in my book.

Third Eye
05-31-2008, 10:03 AM
Metallica really started to go downhill after Cliff died. And Justice for All was the last decent album this band had before they sold out and let Lars take over.

Thank god someone has some sense in this thread. Anybody that thinks this album is going to be remotely as good as Master of Puppets is out of their mind. Robert Trujillo is a hell of a bass player, but Metallica was Metallica because of Cliff's composition. I am still haunted by the memories of "the black album." First time I heard Enter Sandman, I knew Metallica had died.

Brock
05-31-2008, 10:44 AM
I'm going on record saying their new album will be kick ass.

Rick Rubin is producing and has been very firm with them as far as direction. It's going to be closer to "Master of Puppets" than anything they did in the 90's.

Robert Trujillo is by far the best bassist they've had in the band. He's a monster talent which will allow them to really stretch out.

Expect many of the songs to be over 8 minutes long.

Their association with Bob Rock should have ended after "Load".

They don't appear to be able to write songs anymore. So I doubt it will be very good.

Sure-Oz
05-31-2008, 11:52 AM
I would love to beat lars ulrich senslessly

screw sucktalica

KCChiefsMan
05-31-2008, 03:27 PM
Yeah, **** em. They sold out, then they sold us out. They can eat shit. I don't even listen to their old stuff anymore. They've been snuffed from my music collection.

me too, I have refused to listen to them ever since that napster tirade

Spott
06-02-2008, 06:57 AM
Thank god someone has some sense in this thread. Anybody that thinks this album is going to be remotely as good as Master of Puppets is out of their mind. Robert Trujillo is a hell of a bass player, but Metallica was Metallica because of Cliff's composition. I am still haunted by the memories of "the black album." First time I heard Enter Sandman, I knew Metallica had died.


I actually gave the Black album away about a week after I bought it. Rubin made some good albums with Slayer back in the day, but you can't just go back to the way you were 20 years. Every time one of these older bands tries to go back to their roots, they end up just producing more garbage. Of course, that's what they've been making for the better part of 20 years anyways.

Lzen
06-02-2008, 09:04 AM
I'm going on record saying their new album will be kick ass.

Rick Rubin is producing and has been very firm with them as far as direction. It's going to be closer to "Master of Puppets" than anything they did in the 90's.

Robert Trujillo is by far the best bassist they've had in the band. He's a monster talent which will allow them to really stretch out.

Expect many of the songs to be over 8 minutes long.

Their association with Bob Rock should have ended after "Load".

Their last album was supposed to be kick ass. It turned out to be a pile of dog shit. I'm not holding my breath. Frankly, I don't think a producer and bass player is going to help a whole lot. They lost their music souls a long time ago. Passion for the music turned into passion for the $$$ with this group. :shake:

Demonpenz
06-02-2008, 09:05 AM
When I think of metal I think of enter sandman

Lzen
06-02-2008, 09:06 AM
Personally, I'd name "Load" as the album that began to herald a serious decline. The Black album was a big departure in sound and style, but it was still a pretty decent and solid album. That was their last good album, in my book.

Agreed 100%.

KCUnited
06-02-2008, 09:43 AM
They need to take a page from Testament because the new Testament is sick. The whole thrash revival has produced some turds though, i.e. the new Death Angel and the newest Nuclear Assualt. I don't have much faith in the new Metallica because I don't think anyone besides Trujillo cares about making good music. I'll stick with they younger guys that are tearing it up on the west coast right now.

chagrin
06-02-2008, 09:50 AM
They need to take a page from Testament because the new Testament is sick. The whole thrash revival has produced some turds though, i.e. the new Death Angel and the newest Nuclear Assualt. I don't have much faith in the new Metallica because I don't think anyone besides Trujillo cares about making good music. I'll stick with they younger guys that are tearing it up on the west coast right now.

I saw Trujillo with ST back on the LiveCrime tour in 91 (I think it was 91, could have been 92?) I knew he was awesome then, he totally shined.

I still havent' heard the newest Death Angel, I was thrilled to know they got back together, does it really suck?

Testament had begun to suck pretty bad after Souls Of Black, so I wonder how good they can be without Clement and Skolnick.

KCUnited
06-02-2008, 09:56 AM
Skolnick is on the new one and yeah Clemente can never be replaced but Bostaph holds his own. It did get embarrassing when they tried the death metal route, but the new sounds as good as New Order and PWYP. The newest Death Angel is poppy enough to be on the radio, its bad imo.

HC_Chief
06-02-2008, 01:11 PM
f*ck metalliglam and their weak ass music and fat, stupid retard fans.

chasedude
06-02-2008, 01:42 PM
Testament had begun to suck pretty bad after Souls Of Black, so I wonder how good they can be without Clement and Skolnick.

Skolnick is back with Testament. They just released a new one last month. Skolnick's thrash / jazz style is amazing.

KC Kings
06-02-2008, 01:53 PM
It doesn't matter how good the music is... if it includes that damned ringing snare drum that they used in St. Anger I won't listen to it. A pack a RemO tone rings cost $8! That constant koing, koing, koing..... of the snare drives me insane.

Trujillo is a stud. I hope that this album turns out good.

Nightwish
06-02-2008, 10:09 PM
Skolnick is back with Testament. They just released a new one last month. Skolnick's thrash / jazz style is amazing.
I don't really expect this to be a long-term arrangement, though, for Alex. He is too focused with his solo work and his work with Trans-Siberian Orchestra to reform with Testament on any kind of long-term basis. Last time I spoke with him after a TSO show, he sounded like he wasn't really interested in playing the thrash scene anymore, although he would still occasionally stand in with Testament, due primarily to his friendship with Chuck Billy.

DaneMcCloud
06-03-2008, 01:42 AM
They lost their music souls a long time ago. Passion for the music turned into passion for the $$$ with this group. :shake:

Bull. ****ing. Shit.

You really don't know WTF you're talking about.

You know who lost their passion for music? Aerosmith. They've hired songwriters for the past 25 years to write their songs. They only care about money.

You know who lost their passion for music? Kiss. Those old ****ers (especially Gene & Paul) couldn't give a shit about creating new music - they're living off of past glory. Glory from three decades ago. They only care about money.

Who know who lost their passion for music? The Eagles. Their new record is tired and Don Henley is at his most bitter. They only care about money.

Metallica tried, very unsuccessfully, to take an entirely different approach to their song writing and recording process. They tried desperately to come up with something fresh, something raw and something like their past.

Unfortunately, they failed.

But to say they lost their passion for music is a bunch of ****ing bullshit.

Whether or not the new record is a milestone is yet to be seen. But if they had really "lost their passion", they wouldn't have hired Rick Ruben to produce their record.

They just would have hired Bob Rock again and gone through the motions.

Third Eye
06-03-2008, 02:51 AM
Bull. ****ing. Shit.

You really don't know WTF you're talking about.

You know who lost their passion for music? Aerosmith. They've hired songwriters for the past 25 years to write their songs. They only care about money.

You know who lost their passion for music? Kiss. Those old ****ers (especially Gene & Paul) couldn't give a shit about creating new music - they're living off of past glory. Glory from three decades ago. They only care about money.

Who know who lost their passion for music? The Eagles. Their new record is tired and Don Henley is at his most bitter. They only care about money.

Metallica tried, very unsuccessfully, to take an entirely different approach to their song writing and recording process. They tried desperately to come up with something fresh, something raw and something like their past.

Unfortunately, they failed.

But to say they lost their passion for music is a bunch of ****ing bullshit.

Whether or not the new record is a milestone is yet to be seen. But if they had really "lost their passion", they wouldn't have hired Rick Ruben to produce their record.

They just would have hired Bob Rock again and gone through the motions.

1. The new record will not be a milestone. Unless it is actually worse than everything they have put out over the last 17 years, then I guess it could be a milestone in crappiness.

2. You can say what you want about passion. Heck, you might even be right. When you watch Some Kind of Monster, you can't help but feel like they at least care. However, there can be NO doubt that they sold out. I'm not a huge fan of that term, cuz hey, if you want to make a buck, then do it. More power to you. The problem is that they built themselves on this "independent" ethic that struck a chord with a lot of people. Their first three albums (Kill em All, Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets) had zero singles, zero videos, and virtually no marketing. This was not a result of metal not yet being mainstream, it was a conscious decision not to be a part of the MTV generation that many of their contemporaries had embraced. Unfortunately, Cliff died, and it seems that their principles did too.

I still remember the hubbub that surrounded their first video and single "One," and the mainstream success it gave them a taste of. Unfortunately, it led to one of the most over-produced and commercially driven albums ever. Not only did they trade in their independent cards at this time, but the music also changed. Where did the thrash go? Instead they started putting out this radio friendly CRAP that alienated alot of longtime fans. When you look at the more mainstream sound of the music in conjunction with the complete reversal in business philosophy, it doesn't take a genius to see the motive.

DaneMcCloud
06-03-2008, 03:07 AM
1. The new record will not be a milestone. Unless it is actually worse than everything they have put out over the last 17 years, then I guess it could be a milestone in crappiness.

2. You can say what you want about passion. Heck, you might even be right. When you watch Some Kind of Monster, you can't help but feel like they at least care. However, there can be NO doubt that they sold out. I'm not a huge fan of that term, cuz hey, if you want to make a buck, then do it. More power to you. The problem is that they built themselves on this "independent" ethic that struck a chord with a lot of people. Their first three albums (Kill em All, Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets) had zero singles, zero videos, and virtually no marketing. This was not a result of metal not yet being mainstream, it was a conscious decision not to be a part of the MTV generation that many of their contemporaries had embraced. Unfortunately, Cliff died, and it seems that their principles did too.

I still remember the hubbub that surrounded their first video and single "One," and the mainstream success it gave them a taste of. Unfortunately, it led to one of the most over-produced and commercially driven albums ever. Not only did they trade in their independent cards at this time, but the music also changed. Where did the thrash go? Instead they started putting out this radio friendly CRAP that alienated alot of longtime fans. When you look at the more mainstream sound of the music in conjunction with the complete reversal in business philosophy, it doesn't take a genius to see the motive.

This whole "sold out" notion is utter ****ing bullshit.

Do you expect people to stay the same? Are you the same as you were at 5? 10? 15? 20?

People change and grow. Metallica is a band that had an underground following that somehow became pissed off 20 years ago because the band reached the pinnacle of success with the "Black" album.

Are you upset that the Beatles stopped writing songs like "Love Me Do" when they released albums like "Sgt. Peppers" or "Revolver"?

Were you upset that the Rolling Stones issued "Sticky Fingers" instead of another collection of pop songs like "Satisfaction"?

Did it piss you off that the Who released what is arguably one the best records of all-time in "Who's Next" or do you think they should have stuck with song like "My Generation"?

Were you angry that Led Zeppelin released "Presence", instead of releasing a clone of "Led Zeppelin"?

Bands grow and change. If you're extremely lucky, new audiences are found along the way. During that time, you may or may not appeal to your entire audience.

You can't please everyone.

But to blame Metallica for a lack of effort is ****ing stupid and misguided.

Third Eye
06-03-2008, 03:32 AM
This whole "sold out" notion is utter ****ing bullshit.

Do you expect people to stay the same? Are you the same as you were at 5? 10? 15? 20?

People change and grow. Metallica is a band that had an underground following that somehow became pissed off 20 years ago because the band reached the pinnacle of success with the "Black" album.

Are you upset that the Beatles stopped writing songs like "Love Me Do" when they released albums like "Sgt. Peppers" or "Revolver"?

Were you upset that the Rolling Stones issued "Sticky Fingers" instead of another collection of pop songs like "Satisfaction"?

Did it piss you off that the Who released what is arguably one the best records of all-time in "Who's Next" or do you think they should have stuck with song like "My Generation"?

Were you angry that Led Zeppelin released "Presence", instead of releasing a clone of "Led Zeppelin"?

Bands grow and change. If you're extremely lucky, new audiences are found along the way. During that time, you may or may not appeal to your entire audience.

You can't please everyone.

But to blame Metallica for a lack of effort is ****ing stupid and misguided.

Wow. Way to completely misunderstand what I said. Let me try to be a little more clear, I've been awake FAR too long. AS I SAID, an artist has the right to put out whatever makes them happy. Hell, they have the right to put out whatever makes them unhappy too. No one is going to argue that. Neil Young is a great example as his sound has changed throughout the years from rock to folk to even almost disco. I can respect that, I don't have to like all his incarnations, but I respect them. It is where the art took him. Where a band like Metallica is different, is in the fact that they changed not for the art, but for the money. Which I guess is how you equate success, not for the art. I mean that is the ONLY way someone could possibly see the black album as the pinnacle of Metallica's success. After all the Crystal Skull has to be better than Raiders cuz it made more money right?

Lzen
06-03-2008, 10:20 AM
Bull. ****ing. Shit.

You really don't know WTF you're talking about.

You know who lost their passion for music? Aerosmith. They've hired songwriters for the past 25 years to write their songs. They only care about money.

You know who lost their passion for music? Kiss. Those old ****ers (especially Gene & Paul) couldn't give a shit about creating new music - they're living off of past glory. Glory from three decades ago. They only care about money.

Who know who lost their passion for music? The Eagles. Their new record is tired and Don Henley is at his most bitter. They only care about money.

Metallica tried, very unsuccessfully, to take an entirely different approach to their song writing and recording process. They tried desperately to come up with something fresh, something raw and something like their past.

Unfortunately, they failed.

But to say they lost their passion for music is a bunch of ****ing bullshit.

Whether or not the new record is a milestone is yet to be seen. But if they had really "lost their passion", they wouldn't have hired Rick Ruben to produce their record.

They just would have hired Bob Rock again and gone through the motions.

Uh, no Dane. You're full of shit. Don't be such a know it all. Metallica sold out by trying to become modern/alt rock in the 90s. Instead of sticking to what made them one of the best bands in a genre that wasn't real popular, they chose to try and be popular. By doing that, they alienated a lot of loyal fans such as myself. The whole music sharing thing really showed what they were made of. :shake:

Chiefnj2
06-03-2008, 11:03 AM
"Metallica is a band that had an underground following that somehow became pissed off 20 years ago because the band reached the pinnacle of success with the "Black" album."

Fans became pissed off when their music began to suck, and the final nail in the coffin was when they became the whore posterboy for the record industries fight against Napster.

little jacob
06-03-2008, 12:14 PM
i dont dislike them for selling out, i dislike them because everything they put out is garbage

Deberg_1990
06-03-2008, 01:39 PM
Yes, the Black album changed them, but i dont hold it against them. They wanted to make $$$$$$$ so they knew they had to develop a more "commercial" sound in order to find a broader audience. Nothing wrong with that. The the American Way is to make more money.

Lzen
06-03-2008, 02:06 PM
Yes, the Black album changed them, but i dont hold it against them. They wanted to make $$$$$$$ so they knew they had to develop a more "commercial" sound in order to find a broader audience. Nothing wrong with that. The the American Way is to make more money.

Not all artists go that route. There is something wrong with always chasing the elusive dollar. Some bands stick to their roots and still make a good living doing it. Bands like Selloutica just want to be uber rich.

DaneMcCloud
06-03-2008, 04:29 PM
"Metallica is a band that had an underground following that somehow became pissed off 20 years ago because the band reached the pinnacle of success with the "Black" album."

Fans became pissed off when their music began to suck, and the final nail in the coffin was when they became the whore posterboy for the record industries fight against Napster.

Your stupidity couldn't be any clearer.

If their music "sucked", how did they sell over 100 million albums? How were they able to sell out stadiums worldwide?

And as for Napster, file sharing has absolutely destroyed the music business. Recording studios in New York and Los Angeles are all but non-existent. Bands are no longer given any time to grow because due to marketing and promotion costs, a band must "hit" immediately or go away. Record company staffs have been reduced to just a handful. Hell, the Capitol Records building in Hollywood has been SOLD.

So don't even try to tell me that Metallica was on the wrong side of the file-sharing issue.

You just don't know what the **** you're talking about.

AS usual.

Adept Havelock
06-03-2008, 04:43 PM
And as for Napster, file sharing has absolutely destroyed the music business. Recording studios in New York and Los Angeles are all but non-existent. Bands are no longer given any time to grow because due to marketing and promotion costs, a band must "hit" immediately or go away. Record company staffs have been reduced to just a handful. Hell, the Capitol Records building in Hollywood has been SOLD.


Evolve or die. They didn't, and are making a half-assed effort far too late. :shrug:

Brock
06-03-2008, 04:50 PM
And as for Napster, file sharing has absolutely destroyed the music business. .

Who cares? It wasn't producing anything good anyway.

DaneMcCloud
06-03-2008, 05:33 PM
Evolve or die. They didn't, and are making a half-assed effort far too late. :shrug:

Please explain "Half-assed" effort.

DaneMcCloud
06-03-2008, 05:35 PM
Who cares? It wasn't producing anything good anyway.

While I'm inclined to agree with you, it's ridiculous that the only way these companies are even funding new music and new bands is through re-masters and re-issues.

Who really needed "Mothership"?

Brock
06-03-2008, 05:37 PM
While I'm inclined to agree with you, it's ridiculous that the only way these companies are even funding new music and new bands is through re-masters and re-issues.

Who really needed "Mothership"?

I agree. I don't believe for a second though, that downloading has anything to do with the industry's inability to replace acts from 30 -40 years ago.

Adept Havelock
06-03-2008, 05:48 PM
Please explain "Half-assed" effort.

How many years did it take for them to even begin to shift from the model they had operated under, and to try to embrace the possibilities the web offered?

That's what I mean by "Half-assed".

They didn't evolve quick enough, and now they are dying.

Doesn't bother me. I don't think I've heard anything new that has impressed me in years.

morphius
06-03-2008, 06:16 PM
Your stupidity couldn't be any clearer.

If their music "sucked", how did they sell over 100 million albums? How were they able to sell out stadiums worldwide?

And as for Napster, file sharing has absolutely destroyed the music business. Recording studios in New York and Los Angeles are all but non-existent. Bands are no longer given any time to grow because due to marketing and promotion costs, a band must "hit" immediately or go away. Record company staffs have been reduced to just a handful. Hell, the Capitol Records building in Hollywood has been SOLD.

So don't even try to tell me that Metallica was on the wrong side of the file-sharing issue.

You just don't know what the **** you're talking about.

AS usual.
Luckily they don't seem to have an issue paying tons of lawyers...

Deberg_1990
06-03-2008, 06:19 PM
file sharing has absolutely destroyed the music business.


Well that and American Idol. ROFL

morphius
06-03-2008, 06:21 PM
I agree. I don't believe for a second though, that downloading has anything to do with the industry's inability to replace acts from 30 -40 years ago.
Yup, the industry started pushing alternative bands in the 90's, and alternative bands lose support when they become mainstream and lose a lot of their following. By being alternative they also have to try to sound unique, so you are not going to get many bands that appeal to a large market. Not that 80's rock didn't deserve to die, but really, that and rap were never gonna replace sold out stadium rock.

Seemed like a brilliant business decision to me.

Chiefnj2
06-03-2008, 11:26 PM
Your stupidity couldn't be any clearer.

If their music "sucked", how did they sell over 100 million albums? How were they able to sell out stadiums worldwide?

And as for Napster, file sharing has absolutely destroyed the music business. Recording studios in New York and Los Angeles are all but non-existent. Bands are no longer given any time to grow because due to marketing and promotion costs, a band must "hit" immediately or go away. Record company staffs have been reduced to just a handful. Hell, the Capitol Records building in Hollywood has been SOLD.

So don't even try to tell me that Metallica was on the wrong side of the file-sharing issue.

You just don't know what the **** you're talking about.

AS usual.

Stop with your holier than thou I live in Hollywood and know all act.

Ask any of the Metallica fans that grew up with the band. People that saw Cliff play. They will all say that And Justice was the last good album the band had. Just because the Black album may have sold well, doesn't mean the original fans liked it, or that it was any good.

Napster didn't destroy shit. The record companies inability to change with technology ****ed them and they deserved it.

Nightwish
06-04-2008, 12:33 AM
Stop with your holier than thou I live in Hollywood and know all act.

Ask any of the Metallica fans that grew up with the band. People that saw Cliff play. They will all say that And Justice was the last good album the band had.
Actually, no, we won't all say that. There are three factions of the "original fans" - those who think Master was the last good album, those who think And Justice was the last good album, and those who think that Metallica was the last good album. I'm an "original fan" who first started listening to them just after Ride the Lightning came out. I was already an established fan before Master of Puppets came out. I saw Cliff play live, twice. And you can count me among those who believe that Metallica (aka the Black album) belongs on their good list. And rest assured, there are a huge number of us. Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because you count yourself in one of those three factions, that your faction is the most numerous or that it has the corner on good musical sense.

Overall, I fall between the extremes represented by Dane on one end, and by several of the rest of you on the other end. On the one hand, I fully agree with Metallica on the Napster issue - illegal file sharing is illegal, it's unethical, arguments in its favor are weak at best, and it's wrong, no matter how you slice it. Just because everybody and their brother is doing it doesn't make it okay. If everybody and their brother started sneaking into stores and shoplifting, that wouldn't make it okay to shoplift, either. On the other hand, I also agree with those who say that most of what Metallica has put out since the Black album has been utter garbage. You can call it experimental or pioneering if you want, but I call it lazy, lackadaisical and uninspired. Since Cliff's death, they've basically been floundering around without a head, inconsistent and non-cohesive. I really couldn't give a rat's ass about the business side of things, I don't care if they're in it for the money or not. I don't care if they're making a million bucks per song, or if they're giving it away for free. I just care about whether they are making good music that sounds like there is some imagination behind it. And for many years, they haven't.

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 01:21 AM
Stop with your holier than thou I live in Hollywood and know all act.

Ask any of the Metallica fans that grew up with the band. People that saw Cliff play. They will all say that And Justice was the last good album the band had. Just because the Black album may have sold well, doesn't mean the original fans liked it, or that it was any good.

Napster didn't destroy shit. The record companies inability to change with technology ****ed them and they deserved it.

**** you, Douchebag.

Holier than thou? The Metallica song?

**** off.

I'm glad you advocate theft. It shows who's the real douchebag and it's window into your character.

Nice :rolleyes:

Oh, and thanks for your "insight" in the record business. ****ball

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 01:28 AM
Actually, no, we won't all say that. There are three factions of the "original fans" - those who think Master was the last good album, those who think And Justice was the last good album, and those who think that Metallica was the last good album. I'm an "original fan" who first started listening to them just after Ride the Lightning came out. I was already an established fan before Master of Puppets came out. I saw Cliff play live, twice. And you can count me among those who believe that Metallica (aka the Black album) belongs on their good list. And rest assured, there are a huge number of us. Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because you count yourself in one of those three factions, that your faction is the most numerous or that it has the corner on good musical sense.

Overall, I fall between the extremes represented by Dane on one end, and by several of the rest of you on the other end. On the one hand, I fully agree with Metallica on the Napster issue - illegal file sharing is illegal, it's unethical, arguments in its favor are weak at best, and it's wrong, no matter how you slice it. Just because everybody and their brother is doing it doesn't make it okay. If everybody and their brother started sneaking into stores and shoplifting, that wouldn't make it okay to shoplift, either. On the other hand, I also agree with those who say that most of what Metallica has put out since the Black album has been utter garbage. You can call it experimental or pioneering if you want, but I call it lazy, lackadaisical and uninspired. Since Cliff's death, they've basically been floundering around without a head, inconsistent and non-cohesive. I really couldn't give a rat's ass about the business side of things, I don't care if they're in it for the money or not. I don't care if they're making a million bucks per song, or if they're giving it away for free. I just care about whether they are making good music that sounds like there is some imagination behind it. And for many years, they haven't.

I don't think that the Black record was floundering. Whether you like it or not, it has a direction.

Load & Reload on the other hand sound like studio out-takes for the most part. Songs that aren't quite realized. They really needed to hire another producer to help them to get those songs over the "hump" but the success of the "Black" album was like a monkey on their back.

St. Anger was attempt to get away from Load & Reload but for most people, it was a failure.

If Metallica had really lost the passion for music and their drive to create a great record, they wouldn't have hired Rick Rubin.

Velvet Revolver hired Rick to do their last record and quit on him. The result? A shitty record. Others have "tried" to work with him as well and failed. He's very demanding.

So if Metallica is going to be able to move past their last four releases and release something epic, Rick Rubin is probably the only guy that can help them to realize that.

Hopefully, it'll work.

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 01:40 AM
How many years did it take for them to even begin to shift from the model they had operated under, and to try to embrace the possibilities the web offered?

That's what I mean by "Half-assed".

They didn't evolve quick enough, and now they are dying.

Doesn't bother me. I don't think I've heard anything new that has impressed me in years.

Well, that's what happens when you have a business run by "Creative" types. People that aren't necessarily concerned with the bottom line. People whose concern is releasing artistic music that appeals to a broad range of people.

Unfortunately as a result, the Big Five (now Big Four) are all essentially run by bean counters. So what happens? Every act that doesn't generate income is cut from the roster. Bands that don't produces huge record sales from their first album are cut. Gone. Finito. Bands and artists are no longer allowed to grow and mature. It's one and done.

So BMG & Sony have merged. All of the smaller companies have been swallowed up by Universal. Margins are slim. And as a result, legendary recording studios are out of business. Sony Music had to let go 55 people at their Mastering Facility in New York City and the previously legendary spot is sold to become condos. Capitol Records, a Hollywood icon for decades was sold by EMI and will go condo. Legendary Capitol Records Studio (home of many Frank Sinatra records) will be gone.

In addition, hundreds of people, friends and acquaintances alike, have been fired and let go all over town. People who dedicated their lives to music.

All of this, so dickbags like Chiefnj can download music for free. Not to mention the overall lack of mainstream music that pales in comparison to the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's in terms of ingenuity, composition and production.

What a great trade-off :shake:

Pitt Gorilla
06-04-2008, 04:02 AM
Is the new Avenged Sevenfold any good? It sounds like they've gone a bit soft as well.

morphius
06-04-2008, 07:54 AM
All of this, so dickbags like Chiefnj can download music for free. Not to mention the overall lack of mainstream music that pales in comparison to the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's in terms of ingenuity, composition and production.



I still argue that this issue came before the downloading issue, downloading then made the industry pay for their mistakes. You know, like price fixing. Of course the way to do this is to stop internet radio stations from getting big, because we'd hate for our music to be heard in the public so that people would buy it. Then they throw fits like 2 years olds for charging a single dollar for songs, when they have been unable to come up with a decent competitor to itunes.

little jacob
06-04-2008, 09:14 AM
they went from great to average with the black album and put out nothing but trash after that. today they are a living, breathing cliche and nothing more.

i think the downloading stuff has hurt music in a lot of ways. but bands like radiohead and nine inch nails going to the free online distribution model could save it. we just don't need the physical media anymore. or if we still do, those days are numbered. cut the bloated companies out of it, get the music to fans without paying the middle man is what the artists and fans both want i think. i dont see how the record companies will have a say but who knows.

of course those acts can only do music on their own because they have the money after their record label period. that crappy garage band you saw at joe's bar last weekend won't be able to release stuff online that has decent production values. maybe now record labels will be for 'adolescent' acts and when people can afford it they will move on.

Adept Havelock
06-04-2008, 11:12 AM
Well, that's what happens when you have a business run by "Creative" types. People that aren't necessarily concerned with the bottom line. People whose concern is releasing artistic music that appeals to a broad range of people.

Unfortunately as a result, the Big Five (now Big Four) are all essentially run by bean counters. So what happens? Every act that doesn't generate income is cut from the roster. Bands that don't produces huge record sales from their first album are cut. Gone. Finito. Bands and artists are no longer allowed to grow and mature. It's one and done.

So BMG & Sony have merged. All of the smaller companies have been swallowed up by Universal. Margins are slim. And as a result, legendary recording studios are out of business. Sony Music had to let go 55 people at their Mastering Facility in New York City and the previously legendary spot is sold to become condos. Capitol Records, a Hollywood icon for decades was sold by EMI and will go condo. Legendary Capitol Records Studio (home of many Frank Sinatra records) will be gone.

In addition, hundreds of people, friends and acquaintances alike, have been fired and let go all over town. People who dedicated their lives to music.

All of this, so dickbags like Chiefnj can download music for free. Not to mention the overall lack of mainstream music that pales in comparison to the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's in terms of ingenuity, composition and production.

What a great trade-off :shake:

http://b.imagehost.org/0087/Yawn.gif


They didn't evolve quick enough, and now they are dying.

Doesn't bother me. I don't think I've heard anything new that has impressed me in years.

Sucks for those that lost their jobs, but that happens when you keep your cart hitched to a dying horse.

Just ask programmers in obsolete languages that didn't learn new ones, TV/VCR repair shops, etc. :shrug:

The moral of the story is don't expect the world to stand still just because you found a place in the sun.

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 02:47 PM
Early review:

http://www.rocksound.tv/articles/1412/The-New-Metallica-Album---Rock-Sounds-Heard-It---.html

UK's Rock Sound and Metal Hammer magazines have posted separate reports on the listening session for the new METALLICA album, which took place earlier today (Wednesday, June 4) in London.

Rock Sound writes: "On first impressions and just one listen, Rock Sound can confirm that the songs we've heard sound very much like classic METALLICA in vibe, harking back to the days of 'Master Of Puppets', '…And Justice For All' (but with bass) and the [self-titled 'black'] album — without sounding dated or tired.

"Of the six tracks Rock Sound heard this afternoon, only one had a working title — 'Flamingo'. With a slow intro, the song was reminiscent of 'Battery' in vibe, with two guitar solos and an undercurrent of melody and groove.

"The first single is an epic power rocker in the vein of 'The Unforgiven', 'Nothing Else Matters' and 'Sanitarium', with a mid-tempo, head-banging section and some THIN LIZZY-esque twin guitar rifRump Rangere.

"Another song features the lyrics, 'Into abyss, you don't exist, you can't resist the Judas kiss'; another features an almost RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE-esque drum 'n' bass undercurrent and lyrics about 'suicide' and 'cyanide'; while the final song we heard, dubbed 'The Song', clocks in at under five minutes and is a galloping thrash attack with quirks, and a sniff of TESTAMENT about it!

"We suspect other song titles could include 'Die Hard', 'Show Your Scars', and 'My Apocalypse' — but we cannot be held responsible if none of these titles or lyrics are accurate!

"Thankfully — there are plenty of Kirk Hammett traditional guitar solos and a decent drum sound. Hetfield's voice sounds in fine form too. All of the songs have many different parts to them, giving the impression that the quartet is revisiting the epic vibe of the band's 'classic' period."

Metal Hammer reports: "What do the songs sound like? Track one, which is only known by the cryptic working title 'Flamingo', opens up on thunderous rolling drums as lead guitar meets them head on, a flaring up in stop-start motion before it pulls itself together in rushes forward in classic thrash style, all crunching 'Fight Fire With Fire' riffs and drilling beats. It takes at least two minutes for James Hetfield's vocals to come in, and while they sound furious, this isn't the grittiest he's ever sounded, more open in tone, but while there's still a memorable vocal line for the 'chorus,' and there is so much going on in the song, and so many ideas thrown in and discarded for the next one that it's hard on first listen to pick out one riff that you're going to remember it by. But with galloping riffs and the return of guitar breaks rising up from out of the grooves you can hear the true METALLICA spirit, even though its as if reflected in mirrored mosaic.

"Track two is at heart an anthemic ballad that recalls 'Fight Fire With Fire' and 'Nothing Else Matters', with a chiming guitar intro, airy vocals and some slightly convoluted, progressive-style bridges that mutate into urgent riffing, more galloping riffs and guitar solos. Again, the song has a number of different sections, but it still sounds massive.

"Track three kicks off on a stop-start riff flecked with Eastern touches, as other bustling guitar lines play off each other and Hetfield's vocals retain the power of old, like some monolithic prophet overlooking events as mid-paced, chugging riffs come in, sounding like an army on the march, methodically shooting anyone in their path.

"Track four is reminiscent of 'Master Of Puppets' with more than a touch of heads-down SLAYER pacing thrown in. After an artillery-lobbing drum-led intro, it quickly sets off on marching, thrash mode, Hetfield's spat vocals taking melodic digressions, as he roars 'Bow down, surrender unto me.' The song's groove carries you along as it opens up into guitar atomospherics that bring LED ZEP to mind. It isn't quite the kind of irresistible monster they've created before, but METALLICA still prove they can still sound lean and epic at the same time, and when the track drops out into the grove mid-way though, you can imagine the chants coming from the crowds live.

"Track five has another strong opening, with an uncharacteristic bouncing groove not a million miles away from RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE making appearances throughout setting off sharp riffs that come up against an irregular barrage of percussion that sets it off briefly on a more melodic path and builds up once again into a thrilling riff-fest mayhem.

"Track six is the 'song', considerably shorter than the others, but full of clinically sharp riffing, more SLAYER-esque parts and galloping grooves, all hustle and bustle with a tinge of Eastern melody thrown in once more.

"Initial impressions is that this is an album that's going to get our blood chugging, but whether it's all we hoped for is going to take more plays to answer. Ultimately we're hugely relieved and pretty damn thrilled, and we can't ****ing wait to hear the rest."

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 02:49 PM
http://b.imagehost.org/0087/Yawn.gif



Sucks for those that lost their jobs, but that happens when you keep your cart hitched to a dying horse.

Just ask programmers in obsolete languages that didn't learn new ones, TV/VCR repair shops, etc. :shrug:

The moral of the story is don't expect the world to stand still just because you found a place in the sun.

No, the moral of the story is to never underestimate people's willingness to put their morals aside for personal gain.

File sharing is and was illegal but that didn't stop hundreds of millions of files from being exchanged without proper compensation to the copyright and master rights owners.

Lzen
06-04-2008, 03:26 PM
I don't think that the Black record was floundering. Whether you like it or not, it has a direction.

Load & Reload on the other hand sound like studio out-takes for the most part. Songs that aren't quite realized. They really needed to hire another producer to help them to get those songs over the "hump" but the success of the "Black" album was like a monkey on their back.

St. Anger was attempt to get away from Load & Reload but for most people, it was a failure.

If Metallica had really lost the passion for music and their drive to create a great record, they wouldn't have hired Rick Rubin.

Velvet Revolver hired Rick to do their last record and quit on him. The result? A shitty record. Others have "tried" to work with him as well and failed. He's very demanding.

So if Metallica is going to be able to move past their last four releases and release something epic, Rick Rubin is probably the only guy that can help them to realize that.

Hopefully, it'll work.

Wait, you think Libertad is shitty? :shake: You obviously have a different idea of good and shitty than I.

Lzen
06-04-2008, 03:27 PM
**** you, Douchebag.

Holier than thou? The Metallica song?

**** off.

I'm glad you advocate theft. It shows who's the real douchebag and it's window into your character.

Nice :rolleyes:

Oh, and thanks for your "insight" in the record business. ****ball

Yes Dane, you do come across as an arrogant prick. I'm not saying that to be mean. Just telling it like it is. Obviously, I'm not the only one who thinks this.

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 03:40 PM
Wait, you think Libertad is shitty? :shake: You obviously have a different idea of good and shitty than I.

Yes, I think Libertad is a fairly weak album (and the album's sales indicate it wasn't much liked).

Much like its predecessor, it's not "dangerous". It's safe, boring and predictable. If "name" players weren't attached, no one would even know it existed.

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 03:45 PM
Yes Dane, you do come across as an arrogant prick. I'm not saying that to be mean. Just telling it like it is. Obviously, I'm not the only one who thinks this.

I really don't give a shit.

I don't participate in conversations about computer networking, gaming, IT, hardware trouble-shooting and many of other topics in the media forum because quite frankly, I'm not qualified in 99% of those topics. My extremely limited insight into those discussions would be worthless.

But when it comes to the music and film business, whether it comes off as "arrogance" or not, I have 15 years of living, breathing and working in the Hollywood entertainment business and not only have direct experience with many of the people and productions being discussed here on a daily basis, I'm also privy to far more information that is ever published about said productions, whether it be film, television or music.

So if people want to get all riled up because I chime in with factual information, so be it.

It's not my problem.

Nightwish
06-04-2008, 06:02 PM
I really don't give a shit.

I don't participate in conversations about computer networking, gaming, IT, hardware trouble-shooting and many of other topics in the media forum because quite frankly, I'm not qualified in 99% of those topics. My extremely limited insight into those discussions would be worthless.

But when it comes to the music and film business, whether it comes off as "arrogance" or not, I have 15 years of living, breathing and working in the Hollywood entertainment business and not only have direct experience with many of the people and productions being discussed here on a daily basis, I'm also privy to far more information that is ever published about said productions, whether it be film, television or music.

So if people want to get all riled up because I chime in with factual information, so be it.

It's not my problem.
That's why I tend not to dispute you on comments about the business side of the industry. On the other hand, when we're talking about whether their albums after the Cliff era were good or not, that is highly subjective, and no amount of experience in the music and entertainment industry is going to lend any extra credibility to an opinion one way or the other. One of the big reasons why so many bands are moving away from the big labels is that the big labels and slick producers have been so out of touch with what the fans want and like over the past decade or so. Hollywood became so accustomed to being the defining factor for what's hot and what's not, that they didn't even notice when the mantle got lifted off their shoulders and that they're basically now prancing around in the Emperor's new clothes! The Hollywood empire is falling (and internet downloading is only part of the reason), and they need to get on board with the new era, if they want to have any hope of remaining relevant in the 21st century.

Baby Lee
06-04-2008, 06:14 PM
Actually, no, we won't all say that. There are three factions of the "original fans" - those who think Master was the last good album, those who think And Justice was the last good album, and those who think that Metallica was the last good album. I'm an "original fan" who first started listening to them just after Ride the Lightning came out. I was already an established fan before Master of Puppets came out. I saw Cliff play live, twice. And you can count me among those who believe that Metallica (aka the Black album) belongs on their good list. And rest assured, there are a huge number of us. Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because you count yourself in one of those three factions, that your faction is the most numerous or that it has the corner on good musical sense.

Overall, I fall between the extremes represented by Dane on one end, and by several of the rest of you on the other end. On the one hand, I fully agree with Metallica on the Napster issue - illegal file sharing is illegal, it's unethical, arguments in its favor are weak at best, and it's wrong, no matter how you slice it. Just because everybody and their brother is doing it doesn't make it okay. If everybody and their brother started sneaking into stores and shoplifting, that wouldn't make it okay to shoplift, either. On the other hand, I also agree with those who say that most of what Metallica has put out since the Black album has been utter garbage. You can call it experimental or pioneering if you want, but I call it lazy, lackadaisical and uninspired. Since Cliff's death, they've basically been floundering around without a head, inconsistent and non-cohesive. I really couldn't give a rat's ass about the business side of things, I don't care if they're in it for the money or not. I don't care if they're making a million bucks per song, or if they're giving it away for free. I just care about whether they are making good music that sounds like there is some imagination behind it. And for many years, they haven't.

It sucks that cassettes have no enduring value, as I have a cassette of 'Kill 'Em All' bought a week or two after it came out. While I wouldn't say Master of Puppets was their last great album, I would say I admired And Justice. . . while I was GEEKED by Master.

Nightwish
06-04-2008, 06:18 PM
It sucks that cassettes have no enduring value, as I have a cassette of 'Kill 'Em All' bought a week or two after it came out. While I wouldn't say Master of Puppets was their last great album, I would say I admired And Justice. . . while I was GEEKED by Master.
LOL! Master was definitely tops on my list. That was their crowning achievement. And Justice and Black were both still very good, albeit in very different ways, but Master was the best of the best.

Baby Lee
06-04-2008, 06:21 PM
LOL! Master was definitely tops on my list. That was their crowning achievement. And Justice and Black were both still very good, albeit in very different ways, but Master was the best of the best.

Actually, I still get a lot enjoyment out of their $5.98 EP, too. Not an epic, a lark.

I got somethin' to say
I killed your baby today . . .

Adept Havelock
06-04-2008, 06:30 PM
No, the moral of the story is to never underestimate people's willingness to put their morals aside for personal gain.

File sharing is and was illegal but that didn't stop hundreds of millions of files from being exchanged without proper compensation to the copyright and master rights owners.

Same difference. The world changed, they didn't. Now their industry is on life support because of it.

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 06:33 PM
That's why I tend not to dispute you on comments about the business side of the industry. On the other hand, when we're talking about whether their albums after the Cliff era were good or not, that is highly subjective, and no amount of experience in the music and entertainment industry is going to lend any extra credibility to an opinion one way or the other. One of the big reasons why so many bands are moving away from the big labels is that the big labels and slick producers have been so out of touch with what the fans want and like over the past decade or so. Hollywood became so accustomed to being the defining factor for what's hot and what's not, that they didn't even notice when the mantle got lifted off their shoulders and that they're basically now prancing around in the Emperor's new clothes! The Hollywood empire is falling (and internet downloading is only part of the reason), and they need to get on board with the new era, if they want to have any hope of remaining relevant in the 21st century.

Opinions about the relevance or like or dislike of music is always open to discussion. What I think is "good" may suck to you and vice versa. It's the nature of the beast.

But illegal downloading has affected the music business in just more ways than one. It seems the internets are filled with people who cheer the "downfall" of the record industry, yet know little about the effect on recording studios, recording engineers, producers, mastering houses and mastering engineers, not to mention the biggest sector hit, the music publishers, who represent the composers of said stolen songs.

Record companies will alway be "relevant" due to the fact that they own the Master Recordings, therefore, own the content that is licensed, sold and played over the airwaves. The real question is how to regain the market share that's been lost over the past decade due to ongoing illegal file sharing.

I don't think that anyone has the answer yet.

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 06:37 PM
Same difference. The world changed, they didn't. Now their industry is on life support because of it.

ROFLROFLROFL

It's hardly on life support. It's a multi-billion dollar industry. Just because the majors have lost 10% market share and sales in the past decade doesn't mean they're going away.

JFC.

Are you guys this uninformed?

QuikSsurfer
06-04-2008, 06:50 PM
What the **** is this bullshit?

Third Eye
06-04-2008, 07:00 PM
ROFLROFLROFL

It's hardly on life support. It's a multi-billion dollar industry. Just because the majors have lost 10% market share and sales in the past decade doesn't mean they're going away.

JFC.

Are you guys this uninformed?

Jesus man, one minute everyone is losing their jobs and the next minute it is barely a drop in the bucket. Color me confused.

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 07:17 PM
Jesus man, one minute everyone is losing their jobs and the next minute it is barely a drop in the bucket. Color me confused.

What I meant by that comment is that the record industry isn't dying, like Mr. Havelock would have you believe.

It is however, changing and evolving. As I mentioned earlier, no one has the answer. But 10% of a multi-billion dollar business is nothing to sneeze at, thus layoffs, studio closings and everything else I described are a direct result of the revenue loss and the changing of the business model (however imperfect it may be at this point).

If your company loss a minimum of $200 million dollars per year over the course of a decade, wouldn't there be job losses where you work as well?

Third Eye
06-04-2008, 07:43 PM
What I meant by that comment is that the record industry isn't dying, like Mr. Havelock would have you believe.

It is however, changing and evolving. As I mentioned earlier, no one has the answer. But 10% of a multi-billion dollar business is nothing to sneeze at, thus layoffs, studio closings and everything else I described are a direct result of the revenue loss and the changing of the business model (however imperfect it may be at this point).

If your company loss a minimum of $200 million dollars per year over the course of a decade, wouldn't there be job losses where you work as well?

Oh I was just being a smart-ass. In all truth though, I think the standard model has to change. It is inevitable. Myself, in all the years that this technology has been available I have probably downloaded maybe 3 cds worth of copyrighted material. I have, however, downloaded hundreds of LEGAL taper-friendly, trader-friendly CDs. Honestly, the music business has lost its raison d'etre. No longer is it the time when an artist or group needs big business money to produce an album or manage their pr. Is it anybody's fault? Not in my estimation. The times, they are a changin'.

Ari Chi3fs
06-04-2008, 07:44 PM
NAPSTER BAD!!!

http://image.com.com/mp3/images/genie_images/story/2006/m/metallica_parody_story.jpg

Chiefnj2
06-04-2008, 08:12 PM
Dane,

Do you still cry in your tofu about the loss of jobs for those 8 track cassette makers?

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 08:40 PM
Dane,

Do you still cry in your tofu about the loss of jobs for those 8 track cassette makers?

Wow, thanks again for you insight. :rolleyes:

You're so cool. :shake:

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 09:11 PM
Oh I was just being a smart-ass. In all truth though, I think the standard model has to change. It is inevitable. Myself, in all the years that this technology has been available I have probably downloaded maybe 3 cds worth of copyrighted material. I have, however, downloaded hundreds of LEGAL taper-friendly, trader-friendly CDs. Honestly, the music business has lost its raison d'etre. No longer is it the time when an artist or group needs big business money to produce an album or manage their pr. Is it anybody's fault? Not in my estimation. The times, they are a changin'.

Well, the model IS changing and has been for quite some time.

As I mentioned earlier, record companies are now being run by bean-counters. Very few are run by composers, engineers, musicians and producers as in years past. People that were truly involved with the music they released and not just a "bank" looking for a "return on investment". And this is not to even mention Apple's stronghold on the music business. FWIW, Apple chooses the artists featured in their iPod commercials - it's not the other way around. If you're extremely lucky, you "Get" to be in an Apple commercial.

As I mentioned, the direct result of this new "Model" is Sony and Capital closing down and selling legendary facilities (along with others like Cherokee and dozens more), massive layoffs, firing but most importantly, not allowing artists to grow. It's one and done. Either you sell right out of the gate or it's Adios, Muchacho.

I don't think this is the right "Model" because there's too much uncertainty but time will tell.

KCUnited
06-04-2008, 10:03 PM
Hopefully, this renaissance of west coast thrash will motivate Metallica to get back to doing something they helped create. There is no ego in thrash, just beer, denim, and riffs.

Third Eye
06-04-2008, 11:01 PM
Well, the model IS changing and has been for quite some time.

As I mentioned earlier, record companies are now being run by bean-counters. Very few are run by composers, engineers, musicians and producers as in years past. People that were truly involved with the music they released and not just a "bank" looking for a "return on investment". And this is not to even mention Apple's stronghold on the music business. FWIW, Apple chooses the artists featured in their iPod commercials - it's not the other way around. If you're extremely lucky, you "Get" to be in an Apple commercial.

As I mentioned, the direct result of this new "Model" is Sony and Capital closing down and selling legendary facilities (along with others like Cherokee and dozens more), massive layoffs, firing but most importantly, not allowing artists to grow. It's one and done. Either you sell right out of the gate or it's Adios, Muchacho.

I don't think this is the right "Model" because there's too much uncertainty but time will tell.
IMO, the sooner the record companies are gone, the better. Ideally, this will make music more fan driven and less pr fabrication as has been the case since the 70's.

Nightwish
06-04-2008, 11:15 PM
Dane,

Do you still cry in your tofu about the loss of jobs for those 8 track cassette makers?
Just to put that question in perspective, were those jobs lost because people shoplifted the finished products from the store shelves in massive quantities?

DaneMcCloud
06-04-2008, 11:17 PM
IMO, the sooner the record companies are gone, the better.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

Third Eye
06-05-2008, 12:23 AM
Not. Gonna. Happen.

Oh well, I guess your "bean counters" will continue to profit off of other peoples sweat and inspiration.

DaneMcCloud
06-05-2008, 12:25 AM
Oh well, I guess your "bean counters" will continue to profit off of other peoples sweat and inspiration.

So you think that all artists profit outside of record companies?

Dude, you couldn't be further from the truth. And what makes you think that artists aren't duly compensated from said record companies?

And besides that, they're not "my" bean counters.

I left the "Big 4" in 2004.

Thinking that record companies will go away is like thinking that Oil companies will go away.

Third Eye
06-05-2008, 12:46 AM
Thinking that record companies will go away is like thinking that Oil companies will go away.

You're probably right, but I guess I just don't see what purpose they will serve in the future. The physical medium for music is dieing. Digital downloads will be the standard in the not too distant future, drasitcally cutting the cost of production. With the software available today, no longer do you have to book high dollar time in a recording studio to put down quality tracks.

Adept Havelock
06-05-2008, 01:13 AM
ROFLROFLROFL

It's hardly on life support. It's a multi-billion dollar industry. Just because the majors have lost 10% market share and sales in the past decade doesn't mean they're going away.

JFC.

Are you guys this uninformed?

Were you not the guy who was bemoaning how many offices had closed and how many former music industry folks had been laid off a few posts ago?

Evolve or die. They didn't. :deevee:


Thinking that record companies will go away is like thinking that Oil companies will go away.


Of course they won't go away. Cockroaches seldom do. :)

DaneMcCloud
06-05-2008, 01:32 AM
Were you not the guy who was bemoaning how many offices had closed and how many former music industry folks had been laid off a few posts ago?

Evolve or die. They didn't. :deevee:




Of course they won't go away. Cockroaches seldom do. :)

I've already addressed this in post 71.

DaneMcCloud
06-05-2008, 01:43 AM
You're probably right, but I guess I just don't see what purpose they will serve in the future. The physical medium for music is dieing. Digital downloads will be the standard in the not too distant future, drasitcally cutting the cost of production. With the software available today, no longer do you have to book high dollar time in a recording studio to put down quality tracks.

Having access to recording software doesn't make one a music producer or engineer.

No more than having a digital video camera makes one Steven Spielberg.

There are forums all over the internet with tens of thousands of people with "software" that can't properly mic drums or guitars, don't know what a Neve, API or SSL recording console sounds like (let alone, afford one), that don't know how to compress vocals or properly balance a mix, who don't understand the need or reason for acoustic treatment or that can afford high-end studio monitors, let alone have access to a mastering house.

Software is no substitution for knowledge and experience. It's not called the "Academy of Recording Arts & Sciences" for nothing.

In addition, digital downloads are slowly but surely making their way into the marketplace. Apple did $850 million dollars in downloads in 2006 and Amazon is beginning to make a dent in the marketshare. But the overwhelming majority of Artists will always need experienced recording engineers, producers and a marketing team to promote their product.

Why do you think artists like Metallica, U2, Coldplay, Black Eyed Peas, Korn and many others continue their associations with record companies? Because they're being "ripped off"? Because they're all masochists?

No. It's because after all they've been through in their careers, they understand and realize that they NEED the record companies to survive.

And that isn't likely to change.

Third Eye
06-05-2008, 02:32 AM
Having access to recording software doesn't make one a music producer or engineer.

No more than having a digital video camera makes one Steven Spielberg.

There are forums all over the internet with tens of thousands of people with "software" that can't properly mic drums or guitars, don't know what a Neve, API or SSL recording console sounds like (let alone, afford one), that don't know how to compress vocals or properly balance a mix, who don't understand the need or reason for acoustic treatment or that can afford high-end studio monitors, let alone have access to a mastering house.

Software is no substitution for knowledge and experience. It's not called the "Academy of Recording Arts & Sciences" for nothing.

In addition, digital downloads are slowly but surely making their way into the marketplace. Apple did $850 million dollars in downloads in 2006 and Amazon is beginning to make a dent in the marketshare. But the overwhelming majority of Artists will always need experienced recording engineers, producers and a marketing team to promote their product.

Why do you think artists like Metallica, U2, Coldplay, Black Eyed Peas, Korn and many others continue their associations with record companies? Because they're being "ripped off"? Because they're all masochists?

No. It's because after all they've been through in their careers, they understand and realize that they NEED the record companies to survive.

And that isn't likely to change.

I never said you wouldn't need a producer or an engineer, although not everyone will. And of course there are bands that benefit, without a doubt. Every major label needs their poster boys that they can make to do their little dog and pony show. Equally, those bands need the record companies hype machines to keep their careers alive. Without it, people just might realize how bad their music is. You seriously just listed 5 of the worst acts in music today, but they've got that billion dollar hype machine to keep all the stupid people eating that crap up.

DaneMcCloud
06-05-2008, 02:46 AM
I never said you wouldn't need a producer or an engineer, although not everyone will. And of course there are bands that benefit, without a doubt. Every major label needs their poster boys that they can make to do their little dog and pony show. Equally, those bands need the record companies hype machines to keep their careers alive. Without it, people just might realize how bad their music is. You seriously just listed 5 of the worst acts in music today, but they've got that billion dollar hype machine to keep all the stupid people eating that crap up.

Well, that's a matter of opinion. Your dislike of U2 or Coldplay or the Black Eyed Peas doesn't make them irrelevant to the tens of millions of fans who've purchased their albums and have seen them in concert. And trust me, I've seen record companies dump millions of dollars into act that amount to zero. So your idea of a "hype" machine isn't realistic. Word of mouth travels rather quickly.

As to recording and production, where are you going to find a qualified producer with years of experience for free? Or to work in your garage or bedroom studio? The answer: Nowhere.

With all due respect, most music fans don't know or understand the role of a producer. Almost every band in the world needs a producer and those who don't think they need a producer, generally need a producer. There are very, very, very few people in this world who can self-produce because there's no objectivity when doing so. Even among the world's finest composers and artists. Everyone needs a sounding board and someone to help them realize their artistic vision. Even Paul McCartney and John Lennon needed producers while in the Beatles and as solo artists.

Additionally, many non-fans and non-professional musicians alike think they can purchase Pro Tools LE or Cubase and make a record. Most quickly find out that it's simply not true and next to impossible to create a record at home or in the garage or basement or even a rented space that sounds anything like a record produced by real recording professionals with real microphones and hardware.

blaise
06-05-2008, 09:53 AM
I liked the argument that selling millions of albums and selling out arenas indicates that Metallica doesn't (or didn't suck). I guess the Backstreet Boys, N'Sync, New Kids on the Block, Miley Cyrus, and the Spice Girls don't suck either then.

DaneMcCloud
06-05-2008, 12:16 PM
I liked the argument that selling millions of albums and selling out arenas indicates that Metallica doesn't (or didn't suck). I guess the Backstreet Boys, N'Sync, New Kids on the Block, Miley Cyrus, and the Spice Girls don't suck either then.

Just because an artist "sucks" to you doesn't mean that they "suck" to everyone.

Music should have some type of emotional attachment. If you're not a 14 year-old girl, it's likely that you wouldn't be into the Spice Girls or Miley Cyrus.

Conversely, how many women dig Metallica? They're concerts and fan base are a sausage fest.

Baby Lee
06-05-2008, 12:24 PM
Just because an artist "sucks" to you doesn't mean that they "suck" to everyone.

Music should have some type of emotional attachment. If you're not a 14 year-old girl, it's likely that you wouldn't be into the Spice Girls or Miley Cyrus.

Conversely, how many women dig Metallica? They're concerts and fan base are a sausage fest.

McDonalds makes the best food.

Brock
06-05-2008, 12:27 PM
McDonalds makes the best food.

Let me know when you've made six billion hamburgers, or have spoken to regional managers like I have.

little jacob
06-05-2008, 01:01 PM
you know what really pisses me off is that OLGA, that used to be an amazing repository online of guitar tablature, was taken offline after legal threats from record companies. someone explain to me how this was threatening the artists, posting fan created chords or easy to play arrangements for popular songs that the average fan can use?

ridiculous. i dont download music, but this crap is out of control. pretty soon no one will be able to quote a line from a movie without the entertainment conglomerate schutzstaffel throwing a bag over their head and hauling them off.

blaise
06-05-2008, 01:09 PM
I thought it was pretty sucky when Metallica covered Turn the Page. Oh, poor Metallica. Making millions of dollars, touring from place to place so you can get more money while the people buying tickets make $30,000 a year, and you're crying about how tough it is. Let's all cry for Metallica. Maybe we should take a collection for them. We'll help them deal with their struggles and while we're at it we can help feed Latrell Spreewell's family.
So don't tour.

Simply Red
06-05-2008, 01:26 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vlip3Lm_Iws&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vlip3Lm_Iws&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> .

Lzen
06-05-2008, 01:32 PM
you know what really pisses me off is that OLGA, that used to be an amazing repository online of guitar tablature, was taken offline after legal threats from record companies. someone explain to me how this was threatening the artists, posting fan created chords or easy to play arrangements for popular songs that the average fan can use?

ridiculous. i dont download music, but this crap is out of control. pretty soon no one will be able to quote a line from a movie without the entertainment conglomerate schutzstaffel throwing a bag over their head and hauling them off.

Yes, it is a bunch of BS. It is something they see as a way for them to make more money if they take away the free stuff, so they threaten with legal action. You're right, it should not have been forced to be taken offline since it was fan submitted tabs. BTW, there is another pretty decent one of you're looking for a replacement.

Oh, and just FTR, I have never illegally downloaded music.

little jacob
06-05-2008, 01:34 PM
i'd like to know what the replacement is, send me a PM if you dont want to out it here

Simply Red
06-05-2008, 01:41 PM
.<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iYv_dbLKMmc&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iYv_dbLKMmc&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

DaneMcCloud
06-05-2008, 02:03 PM
Yes, it is a bunch of BS. It is something they see as a way for them to make more money if they take away the free stuff, so they threaten with legal action. You're right, it should not have been forced to be taken offline since it was fan submitted tabs. BTW, there is another pretty decent one of you're looking for a replacement.

Oh, and just FTR, I have never illegally downloaded music.

Whoever posted the tabs online must have the permission of the copyright holder(s), which is obtained through the HFA. The HFA grants licenses to those tab companies who must pay royalties.

Just a guess, but I'd bet that those tabs weren't licensed, nor were the paying the publisher their due royalties.

The Hal Leonard Corporation generally has a huge amount of tabs and songbooks.

Though you'll have to pay for them.

Lzen
06-05-2008, 02:15 PM
Whoever posted the tabs online must have the permission of the copyright holder(s), which is obtained through the HFA. The HFA grants licenses to those tab companies who must pay royalties.

Just a guess, but I'd bet that those tabs weren't licensed, nor were the paying the publisher their due royalties.

The Hal Leonard Corporation generally has a huge amount of tabs and songbooks.

Though you'll have to pay for them.

See, this is where it gets kind of hazy, or gray area if you will. These are fan interpretations, not the actual tab. Fan interpretations can often be incorrect. Close but not quite accurate. If i want the actual tab, I will buy the official book. Frankly, I can learn most stuff that I want to learn simply by ear. But sometimes there are parts that give me a problem

or it is just simply easier to start off with something that is pretty close. It would be one thing if they were cheap and easy to find any song, but neither of those is usually the case.

little jacob
06-05-2008, 02:21 PM
See, this is where it gets kind of hazy, or gray area if you will. These are fan interpretations, not the actual tab. Fan interpretations can often be incorrect. Close but not quite accurate. If i want the actual tab, I will buy the official book. Frankly, I can learn most stuff that I want to learn simply by ear. But sometimes there are parts that give me a problem

or it is just simply easier to start off with something that is pretty close. It would be one thing if they were cheap and easy to find any song, but neither of those is usually the case.

couldn't i be playing in a bar someplace and cover someone else's song? if that is protected, my interpretation of that song, why is tab not protected?

Lzen
06-05-2008, 02:39 PM
couldn't i be playing in a bar someplace and cover someone else's song? if that is protected, my interpretation of that song, why is tab not protected?

Exactly. That's the problem. If it were actually feasible, I'm sure Dane and his buddies would have people checking all bars, clubs, etc. like the tax man. "That last song you played. It sounded like blah blah, the top 40 hit by such and such from some year. It is going to cost $$$. I accept cash, visa, MC, or Paypal". :shake:

Baby Lee
06-05-2008, 02:52 PM
Exactly. That's the problem. If it were actually feasible, I'm sure Dane and his buddies would have people checking all bars, clubs, etc. like the tax man. "That last song you played. It sounded like blah blah, the top 40 hit by such and such from some year. It is going to cost $$$. I accept cash, visa, MC, or Paypal". :shake:

Bars that allow live covers already pay a blanket licensing fee.

Brock
06-05-2008, 02:53 PM
Exactly. That's the problem. If it were actually feasible, I'm sure Dane and his buddies would have people checking all bars, clubs, etc. like the tax man. "That last song you played. It sounded like blah blah, the top 40 hit by such and such from some year. It is going to cost $$$. I accept cash, visa, MC, or Paypal". :shake:

They already do this.

acesn8s
06-05-2008, 03:04 PM
Personally, I'd name "Load" as the album that began to herald a serious decline. The Black album was a big departure in sound and style, but it was still a pretty decent and solid album. That was their last good album, in my book.
I just can't seem to stop headbanging to "Nothing Else Matters" and "The Unforgiven" :spock:

The reason why the black album sold so well was because people were wanting a good follow up album to MoP. They promised that it was just as heavy.

I guess they meant that the cds weighed the same.

Deberg_1990
06-05-2008, 03:15 PM
I
The reason why the black album sold so well was because people were wanting a good follow up album to MoP. They promised that it was just as heavy.



Yes, clearly it went 15 times Platinum because it sucked.

StcChief
06-05-2008, 03:20 PM
ROFLLoser 80's hair band classicROFL

Brock
06-05-2008, 03:22 PM
Yes, clearly it went 15 times Platinum because it sucked.

Mass appeal = Artistic value

acesn8s
06-05-2008, 03:23 PM
Yes, clearly it went 15 times Platinum because it sucked.
Compared to MoP....yes, it did.

Deberg_1990
06-05-2008, 03:25 PM
Compared to MoP....yes, it did.

Thats your opinion. Is it different than MoP? Of course.

Did it suck? No it didnt.

Lzen
06-05-2008, 03:26 PM
Bars that allow live covers already pay a blanket licensing fee.
No kidding? Heh, learn something new every day. Funny that I never knew that when I was gigging a few years ago. Of course, most of our material was our own.

chasedude
06-05-2008, 04:01 PM
Exactly. That's the problem. If it were actually feasible, I'm sure Dane and his buddies would have people checking all bars, clubs, etc. like the tax man. "That last song you played. It sounded like blah blah, the top 40 hit by such and such from some year. It is going to cost $$$. I accept cash, visa, MC, or Paypal". :shake:

I remember a long time ago the church I attended used to sing a benediction song that used the melody from "Edelweiss". The Methodist's came up with different words to the song and used it for years.

The parent company for Rodger's and Hammerstein's music said it was against copyrights and would persecute any congregation continuing to use the song without permission.

I assuming the parent company would let the church use it if they got paid.

little jacob
06-05-2008, 04:11 PM
Bars that allow live covers already pay a blanket licensing fee.

i was not aware. thank you.

i still however do not see how a website posting tabs is copyright infringement. it promotes different creative interpretations of the music by others. i don't see how how it could negatively affect the value of the original. i know they want you to pay $30 for their published book of the full arrangement but a tab is a different thing and is really only one person's interpretation of it.

i also think it was sort of a collaborative site and was not a profit generating entity. why couldn't they just say, these are for non-commercial use only and be safe?

DaneMcCloud
06-05-2008, 04:27 PM
Exactly. That's the problem. If it were actually feasible, I'm sure Dane and his buddies would have people checking all bars, clubs, etc. like the tax man. "That last song you played. It sounded like blah blah, the top 40 hit by such and such from some year. It is going to cost $$$. I accept cash, visa, MC, or Paypal". :shake:

No offense but for a "musician", you really don't seem to know much about the music business.

BMI, SESAC & ASCAP collect royalties from bars, restaurants, night clubs and live venues. They pay according to capacity, type of club, etc. It's all listed on the Performance Royalty statement supplied by whichever PRS the composer is affiliated.

Easy 6
06-05-2008, 04:29 PM
Call me a dinosaur, but if i really like a band i want to go buy their cd...i want something tangible & also to support the band. Having a bikillion songs on your ipod is great & all...but its not the same to me.

Metallica really went overboard though & lost a lot of fans in the process...theres gotta be a better way than how their handling it.

They need to find a compromise before they become even more irrelevant than they already are.

DaneMcCloud
06-05-2008, 04:31 PM
i was not aware. thank you.

i still however do not see how a website posting tabs is copyright infringement. it promotes different creative interpretations of the music by others. i don't see how how it could negatively affect the value of the original. i know they want you to pay $30 for their published book of the full arrangement but a tab is a different thing and is really only one person's interpretation of it.

i also think it was sort of a collaborative site and was not a profit generating entity. why couldn't they just say, these are for non-commercial use only and be safe?

If a band covers a song, the original composer has gets paid by the record company and receives his performance royalties. The latest NASCAR commercial features "Hinder" performing "Born To Be Wild". The original composer receives all income for the the commercial. That's performance income. "Hinder" received a "re-record" fee and receives no royalties any time or anywhere their version is played. So even if someone notates a song incorrectly, they're still infringing on the copyright if they don't properly license the song.

Intellectual property is a very difficult concept for many to understand but exists so that composer receive their proper royalties.

little jacob
06-05-2008, 04:42 PM
so, since if i understand it right copyright infringement can occur without any monetary gain, is it infringement for me to play my own version of a song copyrighted by someone else for a girl whilst sitting on my couch? i dont want to run afoul of the law.

Baby Lee
06-05-2008, 04:55 PM
so, since if i understand it right copyright infringement can occur without any monetary gain, is it infringement for me to play my own version of a song copyrighted by someone else for a girl whilst sitting on my couch? i dont want to run afoul of the law.

You're only looking at one side of 'monetary gain.' Saying 'I can sing this copyrighted song here because I'm not making money off the performance' is like saying 'I can take this lawnmower out of the store without paying for it because I'm going to use it at my personal home and not make any money off it's use.'
You're still using something someone expended effort into creating, and they'd like to be paid for the enjoyment you derive.

DaneMcCloud
06-05-2008, 05:08 PM
so, since if i understand it right copyright infringement can occur without any monetary gain, is it infringement for me to play my own version of a song copyrighted by someone else for a girl whilst sitting on my couch? i dont want to run afoul of the law.

You're being a little extreme, Dude.

If you're really interested in copyright law, visit ASCAP.com, BMI.com, SESAC.com or harryfox.com.

It basically comes down to this: If you're performing any song that's been released commercially ever, someone is collecting Performance Rights. Whether it's the bar/restaurant/nightclub that pays a flat fee, the radio station that pays one of the three performing rights societies, the internet radio station and so on.

Even American Idol must license their songs from the publishers in order for their performers to sing the songs they perform.

Spott
06-05-2008, 05:15 PM
I'll wait for their crappy album to come out, then download all of the songs to verify they are crap just like everything else they've made after 1990, then I'll delete them off my computer and forget that they were ever relevant.

Nightwish
06-05-2008, 05:53 PM
I just can't seem to stop headbanging to "Nothing Else Matters" and "The Unforgiven" :spock:
There was plenty of headbanging material on Black. It wasn't a thrash album, but if you think it has to have thrash or speed metal riffing to headbang to it, then you really haven't been around. And for the record, there are speed metal riffs on Black. You named two relatively slow songs, as if that's supposed to sum up the album, but what about the other ten songs on it?

The reason why the black album sold so well was because people were wanting a good follow up album to MoP.
First of all, the Black album wasn't a follow-up to MoP. That would be And Justice for All.

They promised that it was just as heavy.
In some ways, it was heavier. "Heavy" doesn't mean "fast." "Heavy" doesn't mean "thrash." Some of the material on that album was heavier and darker than anything they'd done before.

little jacob
06-05-2008, 06:47 PM
You're being a little extreme, Dude.

If you're really interested in copyright law, visit ASCAP.com, BMI.com, SESAC.com or harryfox.com.

It basically comes down to this: If you're performing any song that's been released commercially ever, someone is collecting Performance Rights. Whether it's the bar/restaurant/nightclub that pays a flat fee, the radio station that pays one of the three performing rights societies, the internet radio station and so on.

Even American Idol must license their songs from the publishers in order for their performers to sing the songs they perform.

i know it was a little extreme. i just wondered what constitutes performance. does it mean me performing the song in my home for someone else? me performing it in an empty house without paying royalties? if so, i guess playing it back in my head might also be, or idle whistling of the tune.

Third Eye
06-05-2008, 07:04 PM
Some of the material on that album was heavier and darker than anything they'd done before.
Do you really think that? Seriously? Give me an example. Not trying to be a dickbag either, but as a child of that generation I thought I was witnessing the death of metal. Luckily, 6 months later brought us Vulgar Display of Power, and the rebirth.

QuikSsurfer
06-05-2008, 07:17 PM
i'd like to know what the replacement is, send me a PM if you dont want to out it here

www.ultimate-guitar.com

Nightwish
06-05-2008, 09:01 PM
Do you really think that? Seriously? Give me an example.
Yes, I really think that. Look at "Sad But True," for just one example. Not a fast song, by any means, but very heavy. Very dark, very somber, very angry, in a Sabbathesque sort of way. It was also very thoughtful and introspective, something for which metal (at least non-prog metal) was not exactly the gold standard. Like many others, I also once believed that speed equalled heaviness. I made the mistake of claiming that Sabbath wasn't heavy, only to be rightfully corrected on these very forums. And I realized the poster who corrected me was very right. And same holds true for Metallica's black album.

Not trying to be a dickbag either, but as a child of that generation I thought I was witnessing the death of metal.
A lot of people thought that. But very few have ever been very objective about why they thought that. It wasn't because it wasn't metal. It wasn't even because it wasn't what they expected of metal. It was because it wasn't what they expected from Metallica, at that time the torchbearer for "true" metal in the mainstream, during a time when hair bands ruled the airwaves. Yes, the Black album had a commercial sound, but not because Metallica sold out at that point and start writing for the radio. Indeed, there was nothing like it on the radio at the time, except on AOR stations that catered to metal. The reason it sounded so commercial, is because the radio deejays and the MTV veejays were savvy enough to realize this album was really clicking with people, and they made it commercial. It was more melodic, ventured into more different styles than their previous albums, but overall it still didn't sound like anything that was popular on the radio at that time, so nobody can legitimately claim they were trying to be radio-friendly. It just turned out that way because radio changed and became friendly to that sound at the same time. The album's sound also had something in common with the grunge sound, although it was written a couple years before Nirvana and Alice in Chains sparked the grunge explosion.

Luckily, 6 months later brought us Vulgar Display of Power, and the rebirth.
Now there was an album that was truly disappointing. I was hoping for something that was better than Cowboys from Hell, and they let me down. There were maybe two halfway decent songs on it (despite the fan clamor, I thought "Rise" and "Walk" sucked big time; "This Love," "Mouth for War" and "F'ing Hostile" were the only memorable songs on the album for me), and the rest was very forgettable. Cowboys was a good album, and ultimately a lot better album than VDoP, in my book, but it wasn't great. Pantera had the potential to put out a great album, but they never did.

Spott
06-05-2008, 09:12 PM
I liked Cowboys from Hell much better than Vulgar Display of power, too. Anselmo was about the only singer that did the high pitched screams and didn't sound like a complete ass doing it. Luckily, about the time that Metallica went to the shitter was when Tool came out with Opiate and made me forget about Lars, James, Kirk, etc.

Deberg_1990
06-05-2008, 09:51 PM
The album's sound also had something in common with the grunge sound, although it was written a couple years before Nirvana and Alice in Chains sparked the grunge explosion.




Actually that came out around the fall of 91 right? Nirvana hit just a few months after that. Black Album played out for at least a couple years after that. It was actually one of the few Hard Rock albums that suceeded during the huge grunge breakout period. Your right, it had a fresh sound and thats why it was huge.

Third Eye
06-05-2008, 10:40 PM
Yes, I really think that. Look at "Sad But True," for just one example. Not a fast song, by any means, but very heavy. Very dark, very somber, very angry, in a Sabbathesque sort of way. It was also very thoughtful and introspective, something for which metal (at least non-prog metal) was not exactly the gold standard. Like many others, I also once believed that speed equalled heaviness. I made the mistake of claiming that Sabbath wasn't heavy, only to be rightfully corrected on these very forums. And I realized the poster who corrected me was very right. And same holds true for Metallica's black album.


A lot of people thought that. But very few have ever been very objective about why they thought that. It wasn't because it wasn't metal. It wasn't even because it wasn't what they expected of metal. It was because it wasn't what they expected from Metallica, at that time the torchbearer for "true" metal in the mainstream, during a time when hair bands ruled the airwaves. Yes, the Black album had a commercial sound, but not because Metallica sold out at that point and start writing for the radio. Indeed, there was nothing like it on the radio at the time, except on AOR stations that catered to metal. The reason it sounded so commercial, is because the radio deejays and the MTV veejays were savvy enough to realize this album was really clicking with people, and they made it commercial. It was more melodic, ventured into more different styles than their previous albums, but overall it still didn't sound like anything that was popular on the radio at that time, so nobody can legitimately claim they were trying to be radio-friendly. It just turned out that way because radio changed and became friendly to that sound at the same time. The album's sound also had something in common with the grunge sound, although it was written a couple years before Nirvana and Alice in Chains sparked the grunge explosion.


Now there was an album that was truly disappointing. I was hoping for something that was better than Cowboys from Hell, and they let me down. There were maybe two halfway decent songs on it (despite the fan clamor, I thought "Rise" and "Walk" sucked big time; "This Love," "Mouth for War" and "F'ing Hostile" were the only memorable songs on the album for me), and the rest was very forgettable. Cowboys was a good album, and ultimately a lot better album than VDoP, in my book, but it wasn't great. Pantera had the potential to put out a great album, but they never did.

How can I disagree with someone more. I could care less about what conforms to my view of "metal." And yes, without a doubt, Sabbath is metal. Hell, Sabbath is Metal with a capital M. Tempo has nothing to do with it. My gripe is the "dumbing" down of the music. I don't really suppose it is their fault, Cliff was their "genius" when it came to the writing. How it can even by considered more "melodic" is ludicrous to me. Softer doesn't mean melodic. The melodies they used to write were considerably more intricate and more avant-garde. The black album was almost anti-melodic. Very, very monotone.

Secondly, I can't understand how anyone can like CFH more than Vulgar. CFH was great, but it still had that glam feel of their earlier work. With Vulgar, and even more so with Far Beyond, they completely created their own unique sound and rejuvenated the metal scene which was suffering at that time. Slayer lost Lombardo, Anthrax fired Joey, and Megadeth released the disappointing Countdown to Extinction all in 92, the same year Vulgar was released. Almost instantly they became the torchbearers. Best "metal" concerts I've ever been to, and I've been to alot, were Vulgar and Far Beyond era Pantera at Memorial Hall in KCK. Best concerts I've ever been to were probably Aenima and Lateralus era Tool, but as far as pure metal, you couldn't beat a Pantera show. The music was tailor made for circle pits.

Nightwish
06-05-2008, 10:41 PM
Actually that came out around the fall of 91 right? Nirvana hit just a few months after that. Black Album played out for at least a couple years after that. It was actually one of the few Hard Rock albums that suceeded during the huge grunge breakout period. Your right, it had a fresh sound and thats why it was huge.
The album came out in 1991, but it was written over a three-year period prior to that.

Nightwish
06-05-2008, 10:57 PM
How can I disagree with someone more. I could care less about what conforms to my view of "metal." And yes, without a doubt, Sabbath is metal. Hell, Sabbath is Metal with a capital M. Tempo has nothing to do with it. My gripe is the "dumbing" down of the music.
Cliff's writing was more about riffing and complex instrumental arrangements, at which he was a genius. Their lyrics during that time were often as cliche as any other metal band. When Cliff died, they concentrated more on meaningful lyrics, and less on "hey, let's see what cool new riff we can throw in this time."

How it can even by considered more "melodic" is ludicrous to me. Softer doesn't mean melodic. The melodies they used to write were considerably more intricate and more avant-garde. The black album was almost anti-melodic. Very, very monotone.
I'm talking about the vocal melodies, not the guitar leads. Vocally, the album was a lot more melodic than their previous work. Hell, James even sang for the first time ever, as opposed to simply yelling the lyrics.

Secondly, I can't understand how anyone can like CFH more than Vulgar.
Vulgar might have been more "brutal" than CFH, but it was considerably less imaginative. With Vulgar, once you'd heard one track, you'd pretty much heard them all.

CFH was great, but it still had that glam feel of their earlier work. With Vulgar, and even more so with Far Beyond, they completely created their own unique sound and rejuvenated the metal scene which was suffering at that time.
I don't know how unique it was. They basically created their unique sound on CFH. Everything after that was just tweaking the sound, making it more raw, less polished, but the basic formula was written on CFH. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a reinvention.

Slayer lost Lombardo, Anthrax fired Joey, and Megadeth released the disappointing Countdown to Extinction all in 92, the same year Vulgar was released.
Well, at least we can agree that Countdown was definitely not Megadeth's best effort. A lot of people will say their best was "Peace Sells." Great album, though I personally preferred "So Far, So Good, So What," "Rust in Peace" and "Cryptic Writings" in roughly equal measure.

Best "metal" concerts I've ever been to, and I've been to alot, were Vulgar and Far Beyond era Pantera at Memorial Hall in KCK. Best concerts I've ever been to were probably Aenima and Lateralus era Tool, but as far as pure metal, you couldn't beat a Pantera show. The music was tailor made for circle pits.
I saw Pantera during the Vulgar tour (summer of '92, if I remember right, at Swiss Villa near Branson). They opened for Skid Row. Skid Row took the award for best in show, but Pantera had the better musical performance. I quite enjoyed it, despite not caring much for the album, but at the concert they hardly did anything from Vulgar. Most of the material was from CFH, with a couple songs from Vulgar. I think they also did "Power Metal," from their pre-Cowboys era.

Chiefnj2
06-06-2008, 09:31 AM
Bob Mulhouse of The Quietus was one of a number of UK-based heavy rock writers who were given a preview of six tracks from the upcoming METALLICA album. The listening session took place on Wednesday (June 4) in London, with representatives from Rock Sound, Kerrang! and Metal Hammer also present. Mulhouse wrote, "It was with some trepidation . . . that I attended the playback of METALLICA's new album at the HQ of Universal, their UK record company. We were permitted to hear six of the 10 tracks which will ultimately appear on the album — which, a rep from the Q-Prime management company informed us, is referred to colloquially by METALLICA as 'nine epics and one song'. The sense of occasion was reinforced by the presence of almost the entire editorial teams of the UK's two biggest metal magazines, glaring at each other over the tea urn.

"Right from the off, it's a relief to hear that the utterly awful production of 'St. Anger' is no more. [Lars] Ulrich has replaced the old dustbin lid from that album with an actual snare drum, and the sound is fresh, clean and resonant (even though the songs are still only rough mixes at this stage). The first song, like the rest of the 'epics,' is between six and eight minutes long and begins with a bass intro from low-ender extraordinaire Robert Trujillo. Moving rapidly from riff to riff, the song bursts with energy and ideas: singer and rhythm guitarist James Hetfield barks 'Luck runs out!' repeatedly and throws in some twisty, semi-progressive riffs which could have been lifted directly from, their last truly good album, 1988's '…And Justice For All'. Guitarist Kirk Hammett, who was banned from soloing on 'St. Anguish' for no adequately explored reason, is on fire, whipping out the melodic, rapid-fire shreds for which he is famous over an extended solo section — almost as if he's making up for lost time. This is METALLICA's best song in ages, perhaps since the 1980s.

"The next song has a working title of 'Flamingo' and is going to be the first single. Now, METALLICA's lead singles have been breathtakingly crap since 1995, so it was a relief to hear that 'Flamingo' (as it almost definitely will not be called) is a modernised take on their amazing 1988 song 'One', all balladry at its front end before a speeded-up metalstorm at the back. Hetfield delivers a clean-picked intro which reminded me of the BEACH BOYS (I know… but I only got to hear it once, all right?) before the body of the song, which is basically like 'The Unforgiven' from 1991's 'Black Album'. If you're familiar with the chord progression behind the solo in 'Am I Evil?', the ancient DIAMOND HEAD song which METALLICA made their own, you'll be able to picture the under-solo riffage in this song — all simple, effective major-interval jumps.

"However, let us not forget that this is modern METALLICA — and the next two songs are much less fun. The first, which may be called 'We Die Hard' judging by the frequency with which Hetfield barks the phrase, starts boringly but accelerates halfway through and enters slightly proggy territory, all stop-start riff stabs and a clever time signature. The next song is very '…And Justice', a lengthy, unhurried workout which revolves around the line 'Bow down / Sell your soul to me / I will set you free,' itself a 1988 line if I ever heard one. Apart from dexterous soloing from Hammett, it's not great.

"So far, we've had two good songs and two dull ones — not a bad track record for new 'TALLICA, believe me. However, track five is tedious, a combination of the aimless riffery of 'St. Anger' and the pointless rock chorusing of 'Load', the album which almost finished METALLICA in 1996. 'Crying, weeping, shedding strife!' sings Hetfield in that slick 'Enter Sandman' manner, over an unthreatening clean midsection which would (and no doubt will) suit VH1 down to the ground.

"At this point the Q-Prime geezer asks us if we want to hear more, and fortunately we say yes — because the final song (and indeed, it is 'The Song', the little guy among the nine epics) is great, a genuine slice of thrash metal that starts fast and stays that way. Like a slower, less precise 'Battery' (the opening track of 1986's flawless 'Master Of Puppets' album), the song nips in and out, not outstaying its welcome and proving that on some level, METALLICA still have the necessary vitriol to impress their older fans. OK, it reminded me a bit of 'Dyer's Eve', the last song on 'Justice', which had a kind of 'I suppose we'd better do a fast one for the fans' feel about it — but in 2008, Hetfield and Ulrich delivering any form of thrash metal is not to be sneered at.

"We file out of the listening room, not saying much. This album could be good, or it could be mediocre — too much depends on the other four songs to make a call at this point. I try not to agonize about it, but this matters, damn it. It really does."

little jacob
06-06-2008, 10:13 AM
personally i thought the black album was simply more radio friendly than the older ones and that's why traditionalist fans hated it. all of a sudden people knew about their band. people who weren't as knowledgeable about music started liking them. people who listened to pop also listened to metallica. it dilutes camaraderie or the image fans of an act feel for themselves and each other.

it wasn't crap, it was fine on its own. blame the band for all the crap after that, they certainly deserve it. blame the industry for making them the next big thing and taking their pound of flesh. it's not an awful record though.

RaiderH8r
06-06-2008, 11:19 AM
Thank god someone has some sense in this thread. Anybody that thinks this album is going to be remotely as good as Master of Puppets is out of their mind. Robert Trujillo is a hell of a bass player, but Metallica was Metallica because of Cliff's composition. I am still haunted by the memories of "the black album." First time I heard Enter Sandman, I knew Metallica had died.

Pretty much nailed my position. Justice for All was good enough and the first time I heard Enter Sandman I figured that was their "radio release" track. Then I got ahold of the album and had an overwhelming urge to shove pointy things into my private parts.

Having said that I want them to be great again. While Lars is a cockwad I think the musical talent is still there but they've lost their pissed off edge. I want them to do well because Trujillo deserves that. If they truly let him have a say in the creation of the music (as opposed to Lars' bullshit psycho-philosophical inane drivel babble) they can get back some of what they've lost musically. Whether or not they'll get the fans back I can't say. They need to get away from writing to sell and start writing to express. Part of the appeal of metal is the take it or leave it attitude. A "shove your shallow pop culture mindless **** all up your ass, this is who we are, this is what we're going to say, and this is how we're going to do it." approach that taps into that special something that metalheads share.

rad
06-06-2008, 11:30 AM
I saw Pantera during the Vulgar tour (summer of '92, if I remember right, at Swiss Villa near Branson). They opened for Skid Row. Skid Row took the award for best in show, but Pantera had the better musical performance. I quite enjoyed it, despite not caring much for the album, but at the concert they hardly did anything from Vulgar. Most of the material was from CFH, with a couple songs from Vulgar. I think they also did "Power Metal," from their pre-Cowboys era.

I saw that show, but in Poughkeepsie, NY. I remember Dime(RIP) took his clothes off during a solo with his back to the crowd.....the next day I heard they were banned from ever playing in town again.

I don't ever remember seeing more violent pits than at that show. It was such a contrast...we all sat up in the seats during Skid Row, then when Pantera came out,the place just erupted. All the Skid Row pansies didn't know WTF to do!

RaiderH8r
06-06-2008, 11:45 AM
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PRIMUS SUCKS!

Well known fact: Les Claypool tried out for Metallica after Cliff's death. James said something to the effect of "He's amazing and he's got his own style, just not what we were looking for". Or some such, I don't have the quote handy.

Nightwish
06-06-2008, 11:59 AM
I saw that show, but in Poughkeepsie, NY. I remember Dime(RIP) took his clothes off during a solo with his back to the crowd.....the next day I heard they were banned from ever playing in town again.

I don't ever remember seeing more violent pits than at that show. It was such a contrast...we all sat up in the seats during Skid Row, then when Pantera came out,the place just erupted. All the Skid Row pansies didn't know WTF to do!
They must have been sharing a double-billing, then, rather than one band always opening for the other. When they were at Swiss Villa, Pantera opened, and Skid Row was the headliner.

KCUnited
06-06-2008, 07:03 PM
Bob Mulhouse of The Quietus was one of a number of UK-based heavy rock writers who were given a preview of six tracks from the upcoming METALLICA album. The listening session took place on Wednesday (June 4) in London, with representatives from Rock Sound, Kerrang! and Metal Hammer also present. Mulhouse wrote, "It was with some trepidation . . . that I attended the playback of METALLICA's new album at the HQ of Universal, their UK record company. We were permitted to hear six of the 10 tracks which will ultimately appear on the album — which, a rep from the Q-Prime management company informed us, is referred to colloquially by METALLICA as 'nine epics and one song'. The sense of occasion was reinforced by the presence of almost the entire editorial teams of the UK's two biggest metal magazines, glaring at each other over the tea urn.

"Right from the off, it's a relief to hear that the utterly awful production of 'St. Anger' is no more. [Lars] Ulrich has replaced the old dustbin lid from that album with an actual snare drum, and the sound is fresh, clean and resonant (even though the songs are still only rough mixes at this stage). The first song, like the rest of the 'epics,' is between six and eight minutes long and begins with a bass intro from low-ender extraordinaire Robert Trujillo. Moving rapidly from riff to riff, the song bursts with energy and ideas: singer and rhythm guitarist James Hetfield barks 'Luck runs out!' repeatedly and throws in some twisty, semi-progressive riffs which could have been lifted directly from, their last truly good album, 1988's '…And Justice For All'. Guitarist Kirk Hammett, who was banned from soloing on 'St. Anguish' for no adequately explored reason, is on fire, whipping out the melodic, rapid-fire shreds for which he is famous over an extended solo section — almost as if he's making up for lost time. This is METALLICA's best song in ages, perhaps since the 1980s.

"The next song has a working title of 'Flamingo' and is going to be the first single. Now, METALLICA's lead singles have been breathtakingly crap since 1995, so it was a relief to hear that 'Flamingo' (as it almost definitely will not be called) is a modernised take on their amazing 1988 song 'One', all balladry at its front end before a speeded-up metalstorm at the back. Hetfield delivers a clean-picked intro which reminded me of the BEACH BOYS (I know… but I only got to hear it once, all right?) before the body of the song, which is basically like 'The Unforgiven' from 1991's 'Black Album'. If you're familiar with the chord progression behind the solo in 'Am I Evil?', the ancient DIAMOND HEAD song which METALLICA made their own, you'll be able to picture the under-solo rifRump Rangere in this song — all simple, effective major-interval jumps.

"However, let us not forget that this is modern METALLICA — and the next two songs are much less fun. The first, which may be called 'We Die Hard' judging by the frequency with which Hetfield barks the phrase, starts boringly but accelerates halfway through and enters slightly proggy territory, all stop-start riff stabs and a clever time signature. The next song is very '…And Justice', a lengthy, unhurried workout which revolves around the line 'Bow down / Sell your soul to me / I will set you free,' itself a 1988 line if I ever heard one. Apart from dexterous soloing from Hammett, it's not great.

"So far, we've had two good songs and two dull ones — not a bad track record for new 'TALLICA, believe me. However, track five is tedious, a combination of the aimless riffery of 'St. Anger' and the pointless rock chorusing of 'Load', the album which almost finished METALLICA in 1996. 'Crying, weeping, shedding strife!' sings Hetfield in that slick 'Enter Sandman' manner, over an unthreatening clean midsection which would (and no doubt will) suit VH1 down to the ground.

"At this point the Q-Prime geezer asks us if we want to hear more, and fortunately we say yes — because the final song (and indeed, it is 'The Song', the little guy among the nine epics) is great, a genuine slice of thrash metal that starts fast and stays that way. Like a slower, less precise 'Battery' (the opening track of 1986's flawless 'Master Of Puppets' album), the song nips in and out, not outstaying its welcome and proving that on some level, METALLICA still have the necessary vitriol to impress their older fans. OK, it reminded me a bit of 'Dyer's Eve', the last song on 'Justice', which had a kind of 'I suppose we'd better do a fast one for the fans' feel about it — but in 2008, Hetfield and Ulrich delivering any form of thrash metal is not to be sneered at.

"We file out of the listening room, not saying much. This album could be good, or it could be mediocre — too much depends on the other four songs to make a call at this point. I try not to agonize about it, but this matters, damn it. It really does."

Thanks for posting that, it seems like a fair, balanced review.

Sounds like they want to recapture the AJFA era sound and at the same time throw in the token thrash songs for the old fans and vanilla pop rock songs for the new fans. I hate that shit.

If Metallica has moved on from for their old school thrash sound, I can respect that, but as a fan of the genre I would love to see them put their middle fingers in the air, sign with a lesser name label like Combat, plug in and let everyone hear the old guys get after it one last time. Like I said, if they're past that, its cool, I understand, but I crossed over in the mid 80s with D.R.I. and I've never gotten past it. So my expectations are selfish.

P.S. Let the solos loose. I'm all about a blatant, out of nowhere, borderline obnoxious guitar solo, Kerry King style.

Easy 6
06-06-2008, 08:17 PM
Despite how they've become, i do have a very fond memory of Metallica.

They had just started their 1st headlining tour (i'd seen'em earlier that year opening for Ozzy) for 'MoP' & came to Decatur Il with Armored Saint opening.

It was a small venue & there were no chairs, you stood wherever you could stand...so my buddy & i get there early & were behind just 1 line of people from the stage, there were no barricades or anything like that...within 3 feet of the stage.

So they take a break about halfway thru, when they came back they were all holding supersize plastic cups of beer...well, Cliff seen me & my bud hitting a pipe... so he gives us a huge smile, came over & handed his beer to us...everyone was groping for it, but he was shaking his head no to'em & made sure we got it.

Thats one of my very best concert memories, what a GREAT show...standing RIGHT there, Metallica just getting started as big stars...still full of piss & vinegar.

Then Cliff died like 2-3 months later.

little jacob
06-06-2008, 11:55 PM
that is a cool story scott free.

jspchief
06-07-2008, 11:20 AM
My take on the Black album suck vs didn't argument...

The fanbase that started out with Metallica is for the most part going to say that Black was the start of the end for Metallica. Black had massive appeal to the "flavor of the month" music fans. And when a new flavor came out, Metallica lost those "America's Top 40" fans, as well as the hardcore fans they alienated when they put out an "Amrerica's Top 40" album.

So did Black suck? To a lot of the "real" Metallica fans, yes it did. And while it didn't suck to a broader base of music fans, it ultimately was the forgettable, flash in the pan, disposable music that typically fills radio airwaves.


As for the Napster thing, the reason it's the final nail for Metallica is that while those 15 billion Black fans had moved on to Pearl Jam of The Offspring, the hardcore fans were still praying that every next Metallica album would finally be the return of Metallica. Instead of getting a masterpiece, what they got was their rock gods turning into corporate lapdogs. Maybe Metallica had a point in not wanting their music stolen, but to the fanbase that still gave a shit whether they lived or died, it was the final example of "selling out" that they were willing to endure.

I'm not one of those "I leave the room when their music is on" bitter X-fans. I think the music from Black is so over-played that any appeal it had for me is gone. I think all the stuff previous to Black is epic and still enjoy it, although I wouldn't pay for it (and that's a discussion for another thread).

KCUnited
06-15-2008, 12:14 PM
http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=99050

METALLICA has announced the title of its new album — "Death Magnetic" — by posting the finalized/complete version of the image that originally appeared on the band's official web site on Tuesday (June 10) under the headline "???." The CD is due out in September.


Just one day after several UK web sites posted early reviews of six new METALLICA songs that were previewed for them in London in early June, the reports were all taken down, reportedly at the request of the band's management. METALLICA has since issued a statement blaming a management "error" for the move and has apparently asked for the reviews to be re-posted.

METALLICA performed a "secret" show Thursday night (June 12) at The Basement in Nashville, Tennessee in front of an estimated 175 people. The band played Tennessee's Bonnaroo festival Friday (June 13) and is scheduled to perform at the one-day Ozzfest in Dallas on August 9, with a full North American tour in the works for the fall.

Bowser
06-15-2008, 12:23 PM
My take on the Black album suck vs didn't argument...

The fanbase that started out with Metallica is for the most part going to say that Black was the start of the end for Metallica. Black had massive appeal to the "flavor of the month" music fans. And when a new flavor came out, Metallica lost those "America's Top 40" fans, as well as the hardcore fans they alienated when they put out an "Amrerica's Top 40" album.

So did Black suck? To a lot of the "real" Metallica fans, yes it did. And while it didn't suck to a broader base of music fans, it ultimately was the forgettable, flash in the pan, disposable music that typically fills radio airwaves.


As for the Napster thing, the reason it's the final nail for Metallica is that while those 15 billion Black fans had moved on to Pearl Jam of The Offspring, the hardcore fans were still praying that every next Metallica album would finally be the return of Metallica. Instead of getting a masterpiece, what they got was their rock gods turning into corporate lapdogs. Maybe Metallica had a point in not wanting their music stolen, but to the fanbase that still gave a shit whether they lived or died, it was the final example of "selling out" that they were willing to endure.

I'm not one of those "I leave the room when their music is on" bitter X-fans. I think the music from Black is so over-played that any appeal it had for me is gone. I think all the stuff previous to Black is epic and still enjoy it, although I wouldn't pay for it (and that's a discussion for another thread).

Geat post.

I'm of the opinion that Black and subsequent albums aren't bad music, per se, but it just wasn't what got Metallica to where they had gotten, as you pointed out. There are songs off of Load that I like, but never would have guessed Metallica would have made five years prior. All this being said, I have no interest in seeing them live anymore.

Spott
06-15-2008, 02:39 PM
Geat post.

I'm of the opinion that Black and subsequent albums aren't bad music, per se, but it just wasn't what got Metallica to where they had gotten, as you pointed out. There are songs off of Load that I like, but never would have guessed Metallica would have made five years prior. All this being said, I have no interest in seeing them live anymore.

They are horrible live. They used to be great live until they started trying to go mainstream/Top 40 with the Black album. Then they started playing their music from the 80's to make it sound like all their newer music, which really sounds like crap to anyone who was a fan of the band before 1992.

Brock
06-15-2008, 06:29 PM
Sounds Justice-ish.

Lzen
12-19-2008, 07:59 PM
I'm going on record saying their new album will be kick ass.

Rick Rubin is producing and has been very firm with them as far as direction. It's going to be closer to "Master of Puppets" than anything they did in the 90's.

Robert Trujillo is by far the best bassist they've had in the band. He's a monster talent which will allow them to really stretch out.

Expect many of the songs to be over 8 minutes long.

Their association with Bob Rock should have ended after "Load".

Well, I will give you some credit Dane. The new album isn't half bad. I had already heard couple of their tunes on the radio and I had been intruiged. I just downloaded their new album (yes, legally - Amazon for $5, btw). I am about halfway through it and I am liking what I am hearing.

patteeu
12-21-2008, 03:38 AM
I don't know which previous Metallica album to compare the new one to, but I know I like it far better than anything they've put out in years. It may be my favorite Metallica album to date. As far as I'm concerned, they've hit a homerun with Death Magnetic. I could have done without the 3rd installment of the Unforgiven franchise though.

aturnis
12-21-2008, 04:28 AM
Expect many of the songs to be over 8 minutes long.

So they will suck for a longer duration?

Lzen
12-21-2008, 02:58 PM
I don't know which previous Metallica album to compare the new one to, but I know I like it far better than anything they've put out in years. It may be my favorite Metallica album to date. As far as I'm concerned, they've hit a homerun with Death Magnetic. I could have done without the 3rd installment of the Unforgiven franchise though.

I would say it has a lot of elements of the Kill Em All/Ride The Lighting era.

Pitt Gorilla
12-21-2008, 03:24 PM
I don't know which previous Metallica album to compare the new one to, but I know I like it far better than anything they've put out in years. It may be my favorite Metallica album to date. As far as I'm concerned, they've hit a homerun with Death Magnetic. I could have done without the 3rd installment of the Unforgiven franchise though.The latest Unforgiven is easily the worst song on the album.

Reaper16
12-21-2008, 03:24 PM
Sonically, it fits perfectly after ...And Justice for All and before Black Album.

jlscorpio
12-21-2008, 04:34 PM
The new issue of Guitar Legends is basically a career retrospective of 25 years of Metallica, their legacy, history, etc. Just my $.02. Metallica essentially evolved into a somewhat different band after Cliff died. Cliff was largely responsible for the musical/artistic direction of the first 3/classic albums. Kirk Hammett has stated that "a part of Metallica died with Cliff Burton". My point is, it's not even realistic to compare modern-day stuff (Load-Death Magnetic) to the early stuff. Like it or not, the Black Album is one of the top 5 greatest hard rock albums ever. On the other hand, it's likely their 4th best in their catalog. It was a landmark album, and it was what was right for the band at the time. They had taken the thrash sound as far as it was going to go. Yes, their sound has changed over the years, so has my waistline. There will never be another run like they had from Kill em All to Master, by them or anyone else. However, I am able to find certain songs on the more recent stuff to like. And I will always go see them live. It's still one of the best shows out there. I agree when James said something to the effect that keeping your sound the same, album after album, just to please your fans is horseshit. Where are Exodus, Overkill, etc now?

KCUnited
12-21-2008, 04:44 PM
The new issue of Guitar Legends is basically a career retrospective of 25 years of Metallica, their legacy, history, etc. Just my $.02. Metallica essentially evolved into a somewhat different band after Cliff died. Cliff was largely responsible for the musical/artistic direction of the first 3/classic albums. Kirk Hammett has stated that "a part of Metallica died with Cliff Burton". My point is, it's not even realistic to compare modern-day stuff (Load-Death Magnetic) to the early stuff. Like it or not, the Black Album is one of the top 5 greatest hard rock albums ever. On the other hand, it's likely their 4th best in their catalog. It was a landmark album, and it was what was right for the band at the time. They had taken the thrash sound as far as it was going to go. Yes, their sound has changed over the years, so has my waistline. There will never be another run like they had from Kill em All to Master, by them or anyone else. However, I am able to find certain songs on the more recent stuff to like. And I will always go see them live. It's still one of the best shows out there. I agree when James said something to the effect that keeping your sound the same, album after album, just to please your fans is horseshit. Where are Exodus, Overkill, etc now?

Whoa. You had me until you brought up Exodus, whose last 3 albums have absolutely crushed just as hard as Bonded By Blood. There are SEVERAL old school thrash bands that have made minor tweeks to their sound that have done more than survive the test of time. Bands that played metal for the love of metal, not notoriety and record sales. I call BS.

jlscorpio
12-21-2008, 04:48 PM
How does the new Exodus compare to Bonded by Blood and Fabulous Disaster? Didn't they bring Baloff back?

KCUnited
12-21-2008, 04:51 PM
How does the new Exodus compare to Bonded by Blood and Fabulous Disaster? Didn't they bring Baloff back?

Paul Baloff died in 2002.

But sometimes they do come back to mosh.

jlscorpio
12-21-2008, 05:15 PM
my bad, I thought of that just after I sent it. I hear Testament's new record is decent, as well.

jlscorpio
12-21-2008, 05:52 PM
Steve Souza was who I was thinking of, but I just read they didn't bring him back either. Too bad Hunting left, too. He was a killer drummer.

Over-Head
12-21-2008, 06:01 PM
They did 2 songs I like
"Enter Sandman", and a re-make "Whiskey in the Jar"
Other than that, sorry, never really liked em' much to begin with.:shake:
Then after the Napster fiasco, well that just made me nerver really much liked em' even more:rolleyes:.
Whern they were hungry young muscians they worked for something.
Now their snobby bitches, looking for even more cash.

I still want to rent thier movie just to watch the clip of Lars melting down over James quitting the band :evil:

StcChief
12-21-2008, 06:07 PM
surprised they have a fan.... they suck

KCUnited
12-21-2008, 10:30 PM
Steve Souza was who I was thinking of, but I just read they didn't bring him back either. Too bad Hunting left, too. He was a killer drummer.

Souza was always my favorite and I heard he voluntarily left (the 2nd time), but thats neither here nor there.

A couple words on Metallica. I've never heard anyone in the Metallica camp pimp Cliff's death as a reason for the bands change of direction. That nonsense came from the fans and the media. I will never judge in a negative way the guys in Metallica capitalizing on their stardom the way they have, but I cannot sit and listen to anyone declare Metallica a success because other bands playing the same style of music, in the same era, didn't make it big. Not everyone that picks up a guitar has aspirations of being a rock star. To a lot of guys metal is about musical mastery, its not a social platform, its not about being perceived as cool and getting paid, its about instrument mastery and respect from others.

Death Magnetic might be a great hard rock album, but IMO its the equivalent of the Chiefs going 9-7 and missing the playoffs. Its better than what we had, but still reeks of mediocrity which seems fine with the vast majority of fans.

Reaper16
12-22-2008, 01:29 AM
Souza was always my favorite and I heard he voluntarily left (the 2nd time), but thats neither here nor there.

A couple words on Metallica. I've never heard anyone in the Metallica camp pimp Cliff's death as a reason for the bands change of direction. That nonsense came from the fans and the media. I will never judge in a negative way the guys in Metallica capitalizing on their stardom the way they have, but I cannot sit and listen to anyone declare Metallica a success because other bands playing the same style of music, in the same era, didn't make it big. Not everyone that picks up a guitar has aspirations of being a rock star. To a lot of guys metal is about musical mastery, its not a social platform, its not about being perceived as cool and getting paid, its about instrument mastery and respect from others.

Death Magnetic might be a great hard rock album, but IMO its the equivalent of the Chiefs going 9-7 and missing the playoffs. Its better than what we had, but still reeks of mediocrity which seems fine with the vast majority of fans.
Death Magnetic is not a mediocre album imo. I think it's a solid, 7/10 metal album. And I'm a harsh fucking critic who knows his fucking metal.

jlscorpio
12-22-2008, 03:54 PM
I dunno, I guess I just believe that no matter the genre, the best bands always rise to the top. In thrash, those bands were Metallica, Slayer, Anthrax, and Megadeth, who all enjoyed some level of commercial success at one time or another. All bands may not aspire to become millionaires, but making more money allows them to buy homes, better equipment, better tour buses, etc. The interview w/Cliff in the magazine I referenced earlier (his last interview before his death, BTW) addresses that. I agree w/Reaper's assessment of Death Magnetic. Too bad for all the "hardcore" fans, they did'nt just re-make Kill em All over and over for the last 25 years.

unlurking
12-22-2008, 07:30 PM
I dunno, I guess I just believe that no matter the genre, the best bands always rise to the top. In thrash, those bands were Metallica, Slayer, Anthrax, and Megadeth, who all enjoyed some level of commercial success at one time or another. All bands may not aspire to become millionaires, but making more money allows them to buy homes, better equipment, better tour buses, etc. The interview w/Cliff in the magazine I referenced earlier (his last interview before his death, BTW) addresses that. I agree w/Reaper's assessment of Death Magnetic. Too bad for all the "hardcore" fans, they did'nt just re-make Kill em All over and over for the last 25 years.

Just because people don't like the new album doesn't mean you have better taste than they do. I like the music, but the lyrics and vocals suck ass. Hetfield's voice has gone to shit since he started trying to sing. I heard he blew out his vocal cords or some shit and had to hire a voice coach.

Sorry to tell ya Carl, but I guess I'm not a "true fan" since I won't by this album.

jlscorpio
12-22-2008, 10:41 PM
that's not what I was saying. What I was referring to is all the self-proclaimed hardcore fans that have spewed venom at everything they've done since Master. You don't HAVE to like anything by anyone. I like it. Reaper likes it. You don't like it. BFD.

Reaper16
12-23-2008, 01:29 AM
that's not what I was saying. What I was referring to is all the self-proclaimed hardcore fans that have spewed venom at everything they've done since Master. You don't HAVE to like anything by anyone. I like it. Reaper likes it. You don't like it. BFD.
This.

unlurking
12-23-2008, 05:19 AM
that's not what I was saying. What I was referring to is all the self-proclaimed hardcore fans that have spewed venom at everything they've done since Master. You don't HAVE to like anything by anyone. I like it. Reaper likes it. You don't like it. BFD.
hahaha

OK, the bolded part just screamed KCJ at me.

I actually liked Justice, and a few songs off Black as well. I absolutely loved some of the stuff off S&M. Cthulu was 10 times darker. There's been stuff they've done well since Master, but Het singing is not one of those things IMO.

I still cringe when I hear "make you more strong" on the radio.

Jayhawkerman2001
12-23-2008, 05:50 AM
Just because people don't like the new album doesn't mean you have better taste than they do. I like the music, but the lyrics and vocals suck ass. Hetfield's voice has gone to shit since he started trying to sing. I heard he blew out his vocal cords or some shit and had to hire a voice coach.

Sorry to tell ya Carl, but I guess I'm not a "true fan" since I won't by this album.

Actually he was a hardcore alcoholic, which made his voice how it was before. Prety much from 2002 on he has been clean, from what i understand, as he left the band for a year or so to go to rehab. His voice is much different now because he's allowing his throat to heal without the alcohol.

Jayhawkerman2001
12-23-2008, 05:51 AM
and to put my 2cents in, I think Death Magnetic was their best album since And Justice for All. It's such a great mix of everything good they've done, from master of puppets all the way up to load and reload. This album hits on all of that very well

KCUnited
12-23-2008, 07:22 AM
Death Magnetic is not a mediocre album imo. I think it's a solid, 7/10 metal album. And I'm a harsh ****ing critic who knows his ****ing metal.

We will have to disagree, which is cool, but out of the hundreds of metal albums that come out each month this thing doesn't even blip the radar of the best metal albums of '08. It might top a hard rock chart though.

Lzen
12-23-2008, 10:26 AM
I actually liked Justice, and a few songs off Black as well......There's been stuff they've done well since Master, but Het singing is not one of those things IMO.

Bingo. The one complaint I have had recently is that despite the fact that I like Death Magnetic, I still don't care for Hetfield's singing style on some of it. In some of the songs (or parts of songs) he uses his modern rock/alternative (or at least his version - uggghhh :banghead:) vocal styling. I always hated that. It's not him and he does not do that style well at all.

Lzen
12-23-2008, 10:33 AM
and to put my 2cents in, I think Death Magnetic was their best album since And Justice for All. It's such a great mix of everything good they've done, from master of puppets all the way up to load and reload. This album hits on all of that very well

I have to agree with that. Of course, I thought the Black album was the shit when it first came out. Many years later, my opinion is that it was okay, but not that great. Today, I would rate it as above average.

So, I guess Death Magnetic could fall into that for me years down the road. Who knows? But for now I say that it is a very good album. Finally, Metallica makes another good record. Is it too late for them to gain back many fans that they alienated? Perhaps. Then again, there are fans like me who aren't going to hold a grudge. I just want to hear good music.

Demonpenz
12-23-2008, 11:48 AM
guitar hero metallica 09 RIDE THE LIGHTING! Lars personal double kick will be a must for that game