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banyon
05-30-2008, 08:20 PM
The Last Roundup
Is the government compiling a secret list of citizens to detain under martial law?
By Christopher Ketcham
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=25295

[edited for brevity]


...In the spring of 2007, a retired senior official in the U.S. Justice Department sat before Congress and told a story so odd and ominous, it could have sprung from the pages of a pulp political thriller. It was about a principled bureaucrat struggling to protect his country from a highly classified program with sinister implications. Rife with high drama, it included a car chase through the streets of Washington, D.C., and a tense meeting at the White House, where the president's henchmen made the bureaucrat so nervous that he demanded a neutral witness be present.

The bureaucrat was James Comey, John Ashcroft's second-in-command at the Department of Justice during Bush's first term. Comey had been a loyal political foot soldier of the Republican Party for many years. Yet in his testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, he described how he had grown increasingly uneasy reviewing the Bush administration's various domestic surveillance and spying programs. Much of his testimony centered on an operation so clandestine he wasn't allowed to name it or even describe what it did. He did say, however, that he and Ashcroft had discussed the program in March 2004, trying to decide whether it was legal under federal statutes. Shortly before the certification deadline, Ashcroft fell ill with pancreatitis, making Comey acting attorney general, and Comey opted not to certify the program. When he communicated his decision to the White House, Bush's men told him, in so many words, to take his concerns and stuff them in an undisclosed location.

Comey refused to knuckle under, and the dispute came to a head on the cold night of March 10, 2004, hours before the program's authorization was to expire. At the time, Ashcroft was in intensive care at George Washington Hospital following emergency surgery. Apparently, at the behest of President Bush himself, the White House tried, in Comey's words, "to take advantage of a very sick man," sending Chief of Staff Andrew Card and then–White House counsel Alberto Gonzales on a mission to Ashcroft's sickroom to persuade the heavily doped attorney general to override his deputy. Apprised of their mission, Comey, accompanied by a full security detail, jumped in his car, raced through the streets of the capital, lights blazing, and "literally ran" up the hospital stairs to beat them there.

Minutes later, Gonzales and Card arrived with an envelope filled with the requisite forms. Ashcroft, even in his stupor, did not fall for their heavy-handed ploy. "I'm not the attorney general," Ashcroft told Bush's men. "There"—he pointed weakly to Comey—"is the attorney general." Gonzales and Card were furious, departing without even acknowledging Comey's presence in the room. The following day, the classified domestic spying program that Comey found so disturbing went forward at the demand of the White House—"without a signature from the Department of Justice attesting as to its legality," he testified.

What was the mysterious program that had so alarmed Comey? Political blogs buzzed for weeks with speculation. Though Comey testified that the program was subsequently readjusted to satisfy his concerns, one can't help wondering whether the unspecified alteration would satisfy constitutional experts, or even average citizens. Faced with push-back from his bosses at the White House, did he simply relent and accept a token concession? Two months after Comey's testimony to Congress, the New York Times reported a tantalizing detail: The program that prompted him "to threaten resignation involved computer searches through massive electronic databases." The larger mystery remained intact, however. "It is not known precisely why searching the databases, or data mining, raised such a furious legal debate," the article conceded.

Another clue came from a rather unexpected source: President Bush himself. Addressing the nation from the Oval Office in 2005 after the first disclosures of the NSA's warrantless electronic surveillance became public, Bush insisted that the spying program in question was reviewed "every 45 days" as part of planning to assess threats to "the continuity of our government."

...In short, it's a road map for martial law...

...Sources familiar with the program say that the government's data gathering has been overzealous and probably conducted in violation of federal law and the protection from unreasonable search and seizure guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment...

According to a senior government official who served with high-level security clearances in five administrations, "There exists a database of Americans, who, often for the slightest and most trivial reason, are considered unfriendly, and who, in a time of panic, might be incarcerated. The database can identify and locate perceived 'enemies of the state' almost instantaneously." He and other sources tell Radar that the database is sometimes referred to by the code name Main Core. One knowledgeable source claims that 8 million Americans are now listed in Main Core as potentially suspect. In the event of a national emergency, these people could be subject to everything from heightened surveillance and tracking to direct questioning and possibly even detention.

Of course, federal law is somewhat vague as to what might constitute a "national emergency." Executive orders issued over the past three decades define it as a "natural disaster, military attack, [or] technological or other emergency," while Department of Defense documents include eventualities like "riots, acts of violence, insurrections, unlawful obstructions or assemblages, [and] disorder prejudicial to public law and order." According to one news report, even "national opposition to U.S. military invasion abroad" could be a trigger....

Under law, during a national emergency, FEMA and its parent organization, the Department of Homeland Security, would be empowered to seize private and public property, all forms of transport, and all food supplies. The agency could dispatch military commanders to run state and local governments, and it could order the arrest of citizens without a warrant, holding them without trial for as long as the acting government deems necessary. From the comfortable perspective of peaceful times, such behavior by the government may seem far-fetched. But it was not so very long ago that FDR ordered 120,000 Japanese Americans—everyone from infants to the elderly—be held in detention camps for the duration of World War II. This is widely regarded as a shameful moment in U.S. history, a lesson learned. But a long trail of federal documents indicates that the possibility of large-scale detention has never quite been abandoned by federal authorities. Around the time of the 1968 race riots, for instance, a paper drawn up at the U.S. Army War College detailed plans for rounding up millions of "militants" and "American negroes," who were to be held at "assembly centers or relocation camps." In the late 1980s, the Austin American-Statesman and other publications reported the existence of 10 detention camp sites on military facilities nationwide, where hundreds of thousands of people could be held in the event of domestic political upheaval. More such facilities were commissioned in 2006, when Kellogg Brown & Root—then a subsidiary of Halliburton—was handed a $385 million contract to establish "temporary detention and processing capabilities" for the Department of Homeland Security. The contract is short on details, stating only that the facilities would be used for "an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs." Just what those "new programs" might be is not specified.

In the days after our hypothetical terror attack, events might play out like this: With the population gripped by fear and anger, authorities undertake unprecedented actions in the name of public safety. Officials at the Department of Homeland Security begin actively scrutinizing people who—for a tremendously broad set of reasons—have been flagged in Main Core as potential domestic threats. Some of these individuals might receive a letter or a phone call, others a request to register with local authorities. Still others might hear a knock on the door and find police or armed soldiers outside. In some instances, the authorities might just ask a few questions. Other suspects might be arrested and escorted to federal holding facilities, where they could be detained without counsel until the state of emergency is no longer in effect.

It is, of course, appropriate for any government to plan for the worst. But when COG plans are shrouded in extreme secrecy, effectively unregulated by Congress or the courts, and married to an overreaching surveillance state—as seems to be the case with Main Core—even sober observers must weigh whether the protections put in place by the federal government are becoming more dangerous to America than any outside threat.

Another well-informed source—a former military operative regularly briefed by members of the intelligence community—says this particular program has roots going back at least to the 1980s and was set up with help from the Defense Intelligence Agency. He has been told that the program utilizes software that makes predictive judgments of targets' behavior and tracks their circle of associations with "social network analysis" and artificial intelligence modeling tools.

"The more data you have on a particular target, the better [the software] can predict what the target will do, where the target will go, who it will turn to for help," he says. "Main Core is the table of contents for all the illegal information that the U.S. government has [compiled] on specific targets." An intelligence expert who has been briefed by high-level contacts in the Department of Homeland Security confirms that a database of this sort exists, but adds that "it is less a mega-database than a way to search numerous other agency databases at the same time."

A host of publicly disclosed programs, sources say, now supply data to Main Core. Most notable are the NSA domestic surveillance programs, initiated in the wake of 9/11, typically referred to in press reports as "warrantless wiretapping."

In March, a front-page article in the Wall Street Journal shed further light onto the extraordinarily invasive scope of the NSA efforts: According to the Journal, the government can now electronically monitor "huge volumes of records of domestic e-mails and Internet searches, as well as bank transfers, credit card transactions, travel, and telephone records." Authorities employ "sophisticated software programs" to sift through the data, searching for "suspicious patterns." In effect, the program is a mass catalog of the private lives of Americans. And it's notable that the article hints at the possibility of programs like Main Core. "The [NSA] effort also ties into data from an ad-hoc collection of so-called black programs whose existence is undisclosed," the Journal reported, quoting unnamed officials. "Many of the programs in various agencies began years before the 9/11 attacks but have since been given greater reach."

The following information seems to be fair game for collection without a warrant: the e-mail addresses you send to and receive from, and the subject lines of those messages; the phone numbers you dial, the numbers that dial in to your line, and the durations of the calls; the Internet sites you visit and the keywords in your Web searches; the destinations of the airline tickets you buy; the amounts and locations of your ATM withdrawals; and the goods and services you purchase on credit cards. All of this information is archived on government supercomputers and, according to sources, also fed into the Main Core database...


...A source regularly briefed by people inside the intelligence community adds: "Comey had discovered that President Bush had authorized NSA to use a highly classified and compartmentalized Continuity of Government database on Americans in computerized searches of its domestic intercepts. [Comey] had concluded that the use of that 'Main Core' database compromised the legality of the overall NSA domestic surveillance project."...


...But even if we never face a national emergency, the mere existence of the database is a matter of concern. "The capacity for future use of this information against the American people is so great as to be virtually unfathomable," the senior government official says.

In any case, mass watch lists of domestic citizens may do nothing to make us safer from terrorism. Jeff Jonas, chief scientist at IBM, a world-renowned expert in data mining, contends that such efforts won't prevent terrorist conspiracies. "Because there is so little historical terrorist event data," Jonas tells Radar, "there is not enough volume to create precise predictions."

The overzealous compilation of a domestic watch list is not unique in postwar American history. In 1950, the FBI, under the notoriously paranoid J. Edgar Hoover, began to "accumulate the names, identities, and activities" of suspect American citizens in a rapidly expanding "security index," according to declassified documents. In a letter to the Truman White House, Hoover stated that in the event of certain emergency situations, suspect individuals would be held in detention camps overseen by "the National Military Establishment." By 1960, a congressional investigation later revealed, the FBI list of suspicious persons included "professors, teachers, and educators; labor-union organizers and leaders; writers, lecturers, newsmen, and others in the mass-media field; lawyers, doctors, and scientists; other potentially influential persons on a local or national level; [and] individuals who could potentially furnish financial or material aid" to unnamed "subversive elements." This same FBI "security index" was allegedly maintained and updated into the 1980s, when it was reportedly transferred to the control of none other than FEMA (though the FBI denied this at the time).


...In July 2007 and again last August, Representative Peter DeFazio, a Democrat from Oregon and a senior member of the House Homeland Security Committee, sought access to the "classified annexes" of the Bush administration's Continuity of Government program. DeFazio's interest was prompted by Homeland Security Presidential Directive 20 (also known as NSPD-51), issued in May 2007, which reserves for the executive branch the sole authority to decide what constitutes a national emergency and to determine when the emergency is over. DeFazio found this unnerving.

But he and other leaders of the Homeland Security Committee, including Chairman Bennie Thompson, a Mississippi Democrat, were denied a review of the Continuity of Government classified annexes. To this day, their calls for disclosure have been ignored by the White House. In a press release issued last August, DeFazio went public with his concerns that the NSPD-51 Continuity of Government plans are "extra-constitutional or unconstitutional." Around the same time, he told the Oregonian: "Maybe the people who think there's a conspiracy out there are right."...

Congress itself has recently widened the path for both extra-constitutional detentions by the White House and the domestic use of military force during a national emergency. The Military Commissions Act of 2006 effectively suspended habeas corpus and freed up the executive branch to designate any American citizen an "enemy combatant" forfeiting all privileges accorded under the Bill of Rights. The John Warner National Defense Authorization Act, also passed in 2006, included a last-minute rider titled "Use of the Armed Forces in Major Public Emergencies," which allowed the deployment of U.S. military units not just to put down domestic insurrections—as permitted under posse comitatus and the Insurrection Act of 1807—but also to deal with a wide range of calamities, including "natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack, or incident."...

..."We are at the edge of a cliff and we're about to fall off," says constitutional lawyer and former Reagan administration official Bruce Fein. "To a national emergency planner, everybody looks like a danger to stability. There's no doubt that Congress would have the authority to denounce all this—for example, to refuse to appropriate money for the preparation of a list of U.S. citizens to be detained in the event of martial law. But Congress is the invertebrate branch. They say, 'We have to be cautious.' The same old crap you associate with cowards. None of this will change under a Democratic administration, unless you have exceptional statesmanship and the courage to stand up and say, 'You know, democracies accept certain risks that tyrannies do not.'"...

...Meanwhile, the mystery of James Comey's testimony has disappeared in the morass of election year coverage. None of the leading presidential candidates have been asked the questions that are so profoundly pertinent to the future of the country: As president, will you continue aggressive domestic surveillance programs in the vein of the Bush administration? Will you release the COG blueprints that Representatives DeFazio and Thompson were not allowed to read? What does it suggest about the state of the nation that the U.S. is now ranked by worldwide civil liberties groups as an "endemic surveillance society," alongside repressive regimes such as China and Russia? How can a democracy thrive with a massive apparatus of spying technology deployed against every act of political expression, private or public? (Radar put these questions to spokespeople for the McCain, Obama, and Clinton campaigns, but at press time had yet to receive any responses.)...

Christopher Ketcham writes for Harper's, GQ, and Mother Jones, among other publications. He splits his time between Utah and Brooklyn, NY.

Donger
05-30-2008, 08:26 PM
Man, it's like I've heard all this before...

banyon
05-30-2008, 08:50 PM
Man, it's like I've heard all this before...

I haven't seen this laid out all in one place before.

If it's a repost, my apologies.

Donger
05-30-2008, 08:53 PM
I haven't seen this laid out all in one place before.

If it's a repost, my apologies.

You'd have to go back back a ways. Circa 2000, when people (like me, at the time) believed that Clinton was going to do the same thing.

Logical
05-30-2008, 08:54 PM
I have a feeling my postings probably have me on the list, not high on the list, but on there all the same.

TrickyNicky
05-30-2008, 09:01 PM
Hypothetically, where would 8 million people be detained? Assuming they aren't the 2+ million criminals already incarcerated. FEMA camps?

banyon
05-30-2008, 09:02 PM
Hypothetically, where would 8 million people be detained? Assuming they aren't the 2+ million criminals already incarcerated. FEMA camps?

You could probably do it much like a medical quarantine (guard the perimeter of an area and then cut off their access to the outside world) until more permanent facilities could be built.

banyon
05-30-2008, 09:21 PM
You'd have to go back back a ways. Circa 2000, when people (like me, at the time) believed that Clinton was going to do the same thing.

based on what?

Taco John
05-30-2008, 09:21 PM
Hypothetically, where would 8 million people be detained? Assuming they aren't the 2+ million criminals already incarcerated. FEMA camps?

SUpposedly there are FEMA camps across the nation... Supposedly. Type in "US Concentration Camps" and you'll find tons of information on it.

Donger
05-30-2008, 09:25 PM
based on what?

EO #12919

Donger
05-30-2008, 09:28 PM
I have a feeling my postings probably have me on the list, not high on the list, but on there all the same.

You can only hope.

Taco John
05-30-2008, 09:30 PM
EO #12919


THat kind of stuff will never get used by the president who puts it into action. Someone down the line would end up using something like that.

I'm not altogether concerned about Bush. He's as lame a lame duck can be. I'm worried about his downline...

Donger
05-30-2008, 09:33 PM
THat kind of stuff will never get used by the president who puts it into action. Someone down the line would end up using something like that.

I'm not altogether concerned about Bush. He's as lame a lame duck can be. I'm worried about his downline...

I'm just saying that it's been done before. Something tells me that George Walker can't wait to get the f*ck out of DC.

Pitt Gorilla
05-30-2008, 09:37 PM
SUpposedly there are FEMA camps across the nation... Supposedly. Type in "US Concentration Camps" and you'll find tons of information on it.There is one in Waterloo, IA (of course). There were big FEMA busses around town long before the tornados came.

Taco John
05-30-2008, 09:40 PM
What I find is a shame is that you raise your hackles when Clinton makes such an executive order, but shrug it off when it's Bush doing it. Seems to me like they've got you right where they want you.

BucEyedPea
05-30-2008, 09:43 PM
I'm not altogether concerned about Bush. He's as lame a lame duck can be.

Yeah, the nc's are losing their "useful idiot."

BucEyedPea
05-30-2008, 09:44 PM
The govt is Santa Clause. They're makin' a list, checkin' it twice. Gonna find out whose naughty or nice.

Donger
05-30-2008, 09:44 PM
What I find is a shame is that you raise your hackles when Clinton makes such an executive order, but shrug it off when it's Bush doing it. Seems to me like they've got you right where they want you.

It DID raise my hackles back then. I've become less conspiratorial since then.

Taco John
05-30-2008, 09:46 PM
It DID raise my hackles back then. I've become less conspiratorial since then.


I'd say less vigilant. You say tomato...

BucEyedPea
05-30-2008, 09:46 PM
You say tomayto. I say tomahto.

Donger
05-30-2008, 09:47 PM
I'd say less vigilant. You say tomato...

Less gullible. But, whatever floats one's boat. I understand.

banyon
05-30-2008, 09:47 PM
EO #12919

Okay.

I've skimmed through it. (http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12919.htm) and guess I don't see what's wrong with handing out rebuilding contracts in an emergency.

Did you have a particular concern there?

pikesome
05-30-2008, 09:59 PM
Okay.

I've skimmed through it. (http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12919.htm) and guess I don't see what's wrong with handing out rebuilding contracts in an emergency.

Did you have a particular concern there?

Executive Order 12919: "National Emergency"

Should President George W. Bush proclaim and put into effect Executive Order 12919, "the President would put the United States under total Martial Law and Military Dictatorship." [2]

"The President need not wait for some emergency to occur, however. He can declare a National Emergency at any time, and freeze everything. Congress, and the States, are powerless to prevent such an Executive Dictatorship, as long as the President advises Congress in a timely matter." [3]
[edit]
Executive Authority

Executive Order 12656 "Assignment of Emergency Preparedness Responsibilities", February 16, 2004 plus Executive Order 13074, Amendment to EO 12656, February 9, 1998.

"Executive Order Number 12656 appointed the National Security Council as the principal body that should consider emergency powers. This allows the government to increase domestic intelligence and surveillance of U.S. citizens and would restrict the freedom of movement within the United States and grant the government the right to isolate large groups of civilians. The National Guard could be federalized to seal all borders and take control of U.S. air space and all ports of entry." [4]

Executive Order 11921 "Adjusting Emergency Preparedness Assignments to Organizational and Functional Changes in Federal Departments and Agencies" allows the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) [stated as the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency] to "develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months." [5]

"FEMA's powers were consolidated by President Jimmy Carter to incorporate: The National Security Act of 1947, which allows for the strategic relocation of industries, services, government and other essential economic activities, and to rationalize the requirements for manpower, resources and production facilities; The 1950 Defense Production Act, which gives the President sweeping powers over all aspects of the economy; The Act of August 29, 1916, which authorizes the Secretary of the Army, in time of war, to take possession of any transportation system for transporting troops, material, or any other purpose related to the emergency; and The International Emergency Economic Powers Act, which enables the President to seize the property of a foreign country or national. These powers were transferred to FEMA in a sweeping consolidation in 1979." [6]

For the first time in American history, the reigns of government would not be transferred from one elected element to another, but the Constitution, itself, can be suspended. [7]

Link (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Establishing_martial_law_in_the_United_States)

A bunch of overlapping and supporting EOs.

Logical
05-30-2008, 10:02 PM
You can only hope.:spock: Why should I hope?

Donger
05-30-2008, 10:04 PM
:spock: Why should I hope?

Do you deny that you wouldn't like to be on said "list"?

Taco John
05-30-2008, 10:09 PM
Less gullible. But, whatever floats one's boat. I understand.


What does gullible have to do with it? Either the executive order exists or it doesn't. The power is being reserved. You're telling me that only a gullible person would believe that power that has been reserved would be acted on? Seems to me you'd have to be gullible to believe that such a thing would never be followed through on. Otherwise, what's the point of reserving the power in the first place?

What do you suppose the answer to that last question is?

Donger
05-30-2008, 10:22 PM
What does gullible have to do with it? Either the executive order exists or it doesn't. The power is being reserved. You're telling me that only a gullible person would believe that power that has been reserved would be acted on? Seems to me you'd have to be gullible to believe that such a thing would never be followed through on. Otherwise, what's the point of reserving the power in the first place?

What do you suppose the answer to that last question is?

You are the person who believes 9/11 was an inside job, yes?

Logical
05-30-2008, 10:28 PM
Do you deny that you wouldn't like to be on said "list"?

I don't think being on the list is a good thing for a persons future. But I am realistic enough to know that what I have posted in this place might not seem always the most patriotic to the loons currently residing at the WH.

Taco John
05-30-2008, 10:30 PM
You are the person who believes 9/11 was an inside job, yes?


Ah, deflection. It was a tough question that would have been hard for you to give an honest answer to. Someone might want to hold you to it.

For my part, I'm not afraid to give honest answers, even if it makes me unpopular. Yes, I believe there would had to have been some sort of inside component in order to plant the explosives in the buildings. Especially building 7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azdkPT4eDaE).

Now why don't you try?

banyon
05-30-2008, 10:32 PM
Link (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Establishing_martial_law_in_the_United_States)

A bunch of overlapping and supporting EOs.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't any particular concern about EO 12919 anywhere in your post.

In fact, here's the summary title in your article:

EO 12919 "Apparently Allows Cabinet Heads to Make Direct Loans to Government Contractors."

pikesome
05-30-2008, 10:35 PM
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't any particular concern about EO 12919 anywhere in your post.

In fact, here's the summary title in your article:

EO 12919 "Apparently Allows Cabinet Heads to Make Direct Loans to Government Contractors."

It's the very first line of the quote I posted.

If you go to the page you can click on the link, it's down the page a bit, which... appears to not be working ATM.

I'll see if I can find it.

pikesome
05-30-2008, 10:39 PM
From a different link on that same page:

E. O. 12919 was signed into law by President Clinton June 3, 1994, which gathers together into one document the authority of the previously mentioned 11 Executive Orders. This means that FEMA would take over 28 Executive Departments and Agencies whenever the President of the United States declares a national emergency. This was all made possible by the 1933 War Emergency Powers Act, which authorizes the President to suspend the Constitution. There is no known Executive Order outlining the restoration of the Constitution after the national emergency has ended.

There's also enumerated in a list farther down that same page.

banyon
05-30-2008, 10:39 PM
It's the very first line of the quote I posted.

If you go to the page you can click on the link, it's down the page a bit, which... appears to not be working ATM.

I'll see if I can find it.

The link from sourcewatch was to apparently a student or professor page in Texas at some school.

The plain reading of the EO, though, doesn't seem to support the claimed conclusion, IMO.

banyon
05-30-2008, 10:41 PM
From a different link on that same page:



There's also enumerated in a list farther down that same page.

So the grave danger then is collecting all of the prior EO's that were already in force into one place?

Donger
05-30-2008, 10:45 PM
Ah, deflection. It was a tough question that would have been hard for you to give an honest answer to. Someone might want to hold you to it.

For my part, I'm not afraid to give honest answers, even if it makes me unpopular. Yes, I believe there would had to have been some sort of inside component in order to plant the explosives in the buildings. Especially building 7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azdkPT4eDaE).

Now why don't you try?

I wouldn't expect a person of your level of gullibility to presume anything less, to be honest.

Don't for get to check under your bed tonight, BTW.

pikesome
05-30-2008, 10:46 PM
So the grave danger then is collecting all of the prior EO's that were already in force into one place?

Did you read any of that page? Those previous EOs which Clinton basically reiterated give the Pres a lot of power he, probably, isn't supposed to have.

The article might be a bit anit-Bush but it does spell this out with links for support.

Taco John
05-30-2008, 10:49 PM
I wouldn't expect a person of your level of gullibility to presume anything less, to be honest.

Don't for get to check under your bed tonight, BTW.


So you're just not going to answer the question?

banyon
05-30-2008, 10:49 PM
Did you read any of that page? Those previous EOs which Clinton basically reiterated give the Pres a lot of power he, probably, isn't supposed to have.

The article might be a bit anit-Bush but it does spell this out with links for support.

Let's be clear here. You're making the point. I'm not going to sift through 20 executive orders to make your point.

If there is a danger created by that particular EO, what is it? As I stated earlier, the prior EO's were already in force, so collecting them all in one place doesn't really give the government any more power than before.

I presume that some were partially repealed because their dictates were inconsistent with the current EO. That's a normal type of provision to have in any rulemaking, whether it is executive, administrative, or executive, so that you don't have conflicting rules.

I think the Texas grad student website may have overreached on this.

pikesome
05-30-2008, 10:54 PM
Let's be clear here. You're making the point. I'm not going to sift through 20 executive orders to make your point.

If there is a danger created by that EO, what is it? As I stated earlier, the prior EO's were already in force, so collecting them all in one place doesn't really give the government any more power than before.

I presume that some were partially repealed because their dictates were inconsistent with the current EO. That's a normal type of provision to have in any rulemaking, whether it is executive, administrative, or executive, so yhtat you don't have conflicting rules.

Are you drinking tonight? I'm not making a point.

You typed:
Okay.

I've skimmed through it. and guess I don't see what's wrong with handing out rebuilding contracts in an emergency.

Did you have a particular concern there?

To which I posted a link to an article I thought ought to paint a picture of what the concern is. While that page has some tin-foil hat material on it there's some good facts and links to background. I assumed you could sift through it and figure it out yourself.

You might take a step back and think for a sec on what's being typed.

banyon
05-30-2008, 10:58 PM
Are you drinking tonight? I'm not making a point.

You typed:


To which I posted a link to an article I thought ought to paint a picture of what the concern is. While that page has some tin-foil hat material on it there's some good facts and links to background. I assumed you could sift through it and figure it out yourself.

You might take a step back and think for a sec on what's being typed.

Ok. If you were just trying to provide some useful starting points, then that's okay. Thanks.

I took it as an attempt to actually answer the question I posed to Donger. Again, I don't see anything in the linked page that would answer my question. In any event, Donger's attempt to create some kind of moral equivalency between something Clinton signed and the non-transparent totalitarian tactics outline in the OP still seems like the red herring that he intended it to be IMO.

ClevelandBronco
05-30-2008, 11:19 PM
If I'm not on the list I need to know what I have to say to get on it. It would be such a shame to be left behind.

cdcox
05-30-2008, 11:42 PM
Everyone who has clicked on this thread is definitely on The List.

Pitt Gorilla
05-31-2008, 12:10 AM
So you're just not going to answer the question?It would be dandy if he did.

Donger
05-31-2008, 06:50 AM
So you're just not going to answer the question?

I think that the government does lots of stupid sh*t. That EO is just one example. Our military also has "plans" to invade Canada.

That doesn't mean it's ever going to happen.

As I said, such things used to bother me, when I was more conspiratorial.

patteeu
05-31-2008, 07:18 AM
I think this domestic problem can be easily handled if we just build a detention fence around Denver in late August of this year. It's a little bit indiscriminate as we'd probably lose some good posters like Donger, Rain Man, DaFace, DenverChief, Cosmic, etc., but there'd be a lot of bathwater thrown out along with that baby. :p

Cavgrunt
05-31-2008, 07:25 AM
The Last Roundup
Is the government compiling a secret list of citizens to detain under martial law?
By Christopher Ketcham
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=25295

[edited for brevity]


...In the spring of 2007, a retired senior official in the U.S. Justice Department sat before Congress and told a story so odd and ominous, it could have sprung from the pages of a pulp political thriller. It was about a principled bureaucrat struggling to protect his country from a highly classified program with sinister implications. Rife with high drama, it included a car chase through the streets of Washington, D.C., and a tense meeting at the White House, where the president's henchmen made the bureaucrat so nervous that he demanded a neutral witness be present.

The bureaucrat was James Comey, John Ashcroft's second-in-command at the Department of Justice during Bush's first term. Comey had been a loyal political foot soldier of the Republican Party for many years. Yet in his testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, he described how he had grown increasingly uneasy reviewing the Bush administration's various domestic surveillance and spying programs. Much of his testimony centered on an operation so clandestine he wasn't allowed to name it or even describe what it did. He did say, however, that he and Ashcroft had discussed the program in March 2004, trying to decide whether it was legal under federal statutes. Shortly before the certification deadline, Ashcroft fell ill with pancreatitis, making Comey acting attorney general, and Comey opted not to certify the program. When he communicated his decision to the White House, Bush's men told him, in so many words, to take his concerns and stuff them in an undisclosed location.

Comey refused to knuckle under, and the dispute came to a head on the cold night of March 10, 2004, hours before the program's authorization was to expire. At the time, Ashcroft was in intensive care at George Washington Hospital following emergency surgery. Apparently, at the behest of President Bush himself, the White House tried, in Comey's words, "to take advantage of a very sick man," sending Chief of Staff Andrew Card and then–White House counsel Alberto Gonzales on a mission to Ashcroft's sickroom to persuade the heavily doped attorney general to override his deputy. Apprised of their mission, Comey, accompanied by a full security detail, jumped in his car, raced through the streets of the capital, lights blazing, and "literally ran" up the hospital stairs to beat them there.

Minutes later, Gonzales and Card arrived with an envelope filled with the requisite forms. Ashcroft, even in his stupor, did not fall for their heavy-handed ploy. "I'm not the attorney general," Ashcroft told Bush's men. "There"—he pointed weakly to Comey—"is the attorney general." Gonzales and Card were furious, departing without even acknowledging Comey's presence in the room. The following day, the classified domestic spying program that Comey found so disturbing went forward at the demand of the White House—"without a signature from the Department of Justice attesting as to its legality," he testified.

What was the mysterious program that had so alarmed Comey? Political blogs buzzed for weeks with speculation. Though Comey testified that the program was subsequently readjusted to satisfy his concerns, one can't help wondering whether the unspecified alteration would satisfy constitutional experts, or even average citizens. Faced with push-back from his bosses at the White House, did he simply relent and accept a token concession? Two months after Comey's testimony to Congress, the New York Times reported a tantalizing detail: The program that prompted him "to threaten resignation involved computer searches through massive electronic databases." The larger mystery remained intact, however. "It is not known precisely why searching the databases, or data mining, raised such a furious legal debate," the article conceded.

Another clue came from a rather unexpected source: President Bush himself. Addressing the nation from the Oval Office in 2005 after the first disclosures of the NSA's warrantless electronic surveillance became public, Bush insisted that the spying program in question was reviewed "every 45 days" as part of planning to assess threats to "the continuity of our government."

...In short, it's a road map for martial law...

...Sources familiar with the program say that the government's data gathering has been overzealous and probably conducted in violation of federal law and the protection from unreasonable search and seizure guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment...

According to a senior government official who served with high-level security clearances in five administrations, "There exists a database of Americans, who, often for the slightest and most trivial reason, are considered unfriendly, and who, in a time of panic, might be incarcerated. The database can identify and locate perceived 'enemies of the state' almost instantaneously." He and other sources tell Radar that the database is sometimes referred to by the code name Main Core. One knowledgeable source claims that 8 million Americans are now listed in Main Core as potentially suspect. In the event of a national emergency, these people could be subject to everything from heightened surveillance and tracking to direct questioning and possibly even detention.

Of course, federal law is somewhat vague as to what might constitute a "national emergency." Executive orders issued over the past three decades define it as a "natural disaster, military attack, [or] technological or other emergency," while Department of Defense documents include eventualities like "riots, acts of violence, insurrections, unlawful obstructions or assemblages, [and] disorder prejudicial to public law and order." According to one news report, even "national opposition to U.S. military invasion abroad" could be a trigger....

Under law, during a national emergency, FEMA and its parent organization, the Department of Homeland Security, would be empowered to seize private and public property, all forms of transport, and all food supplies. The agency could dispatch military commanders to run state and local governments, and it could order the arrest of citizens without a warrant, holding them without trial for as long as the acting government deems necessary. From the comfortable perspective of peaceful times, such behavior by the government may seem far-fetched. But it was not so very long ago that FDR ordered 120,000 Japanese Americans—everyone from infants to the elderly—be held in detention camps for the duration of World War II. This is widely regarded as a shameful moment in U.S. history, a lesson learned. But a long trail of federal documents indicates that the possibility of large-scale detention has never quite been abandoned by federal authorities. Around the time of the 1968 race riots, for instance, a paper drawn up at the U.S. Army War College detailed plans for rounding up millions of "militants" and "American negroes," who were to be held at "assembly centers or relocation camps." In the late 1980s, the Austin American-Statesman and other publications reported the existence of 10 detention camp sites on military facilities nationwide, where hundreds of thousands of people could be held in the event of domestic political upheaval. More such facilities were commissioned in 2006, when Kellogg Brown & Root—then a subsidiary of Halliburton—was handed a $385 million contract to establish "temporary detention and processing capabilities" for the Department of Homeland Security. The contract is short on details, stating only that the facilities would be used for "an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs." Just what those "new programs" might be is not specified.

In the days after our hypothetical terror attack, events might play out like this: With the population gripped by fear and anger, authorities undertake unprecedented actions in the name of public safety. Officials at the Department of Homeland Security begin actively scrutinizing people who—for a tremendously broad set of reasons—have been flagged in Main Core as potential domestic threats. Some of these individuals might receive a letter or a phone call, others a request to register with local authorities. Still others might hear a knock on the door and find police or armed soldiers outside. In some instances, the authorities might just ask a few questions. Other suspects might be arrested and escorted to federal holding facilities, where they could be detained without counsel until the state of emergency is no longer in effect.

It is, of course, appropriate for any government to plan for the worst. But when COG plans are shrouded in extreme secrecy, effectively unregulated by Congress or the courts, and married to an overreaching surveillance state—as seems to be the case with Main Core—even sober observers must weigh whether the protections put in place by the federal government are becoming more dangerous to America than any outside threat.

Another well-informed source—a former military operative regularly briefed by members of the intelligence community—says this particular program has roots going back at least to the 1980s and was set up with help from the Defense Intelligence Agency. He has been told that the program utilizes software that makes predictive judgments of targets' behavior and tracks their circle of associations with "social network analysis" and artificial intelligence modeling tools.

"The more data you have on a particular target, the better [the software] can predict what the target will do, where the target will go, who it will turn to for help," he says. "Main Core is the table of contents for all the illegal information that the U.S. government has [compiled] on specific targets." An intelligence expert who has been briefed by high-level contacts in the Department of Homeland Security confirms that a database of this sort exists, but adds that "it is less a mega-database than a way to search numerous other agency databases at the same time."

A host of publicly disclosed programs, sources say, now supply data to Main Core. Most notable are the NSA domestic surveillance programs, initiated in the wake of 9/11, typically referred to in press reports as "warrantless wiretapping."

In March, a front-page article in the Wall Street Journal shed further light onto the extraordinarily invasive scope of the NSA efforts: According to the Journal, the government can now electronically monitor "huge volumes of records of domestic e-mails and Internet searches, as well as bank transfers, credit card transactions, travel, and telephone records." Authorities employ "sophisticated software programs" to sift through the data, searching for "suspicious patterns." In effect, the program is a mass catalog of the private lives of Americans. And it's notable that the article hints at the possibility of programs like Main Core. "The [NSA] effort also ties into data from an ad-hoc collection of so-called black programs whose existence is undisclosed," the Journal reported, quoting unnamed officials. "Many of the programs in various agencies began years before the 9/11 attacks but have since been given greater reach."

The following information seems to be fair game for collection without a warrant: the e-mail addresses you send to and receive from, and the subject lines of those messages; the phone numbers you dial, the numbers that dial in to your line, and the durations of the calls; the Internet sites you visit and the keywords in your Web searches; the destinations of the airline tickets you buy; the amounts and locations of your ATM withdrawals; and the goods and services you purchase on credit cards. All of this information is archived on government supercomputers and, according to sources, also fed into the Main Core database...


...A source regularly briefed by people inside the intelligence community adds: "Comey had discovered that President Bush had authorized NSA to use a highly classified and compartmentalized Continuity of Government database on Americans in computerized searches of its domestic intercepts. [Comey] had concluded that the use of that 'Main Core' database compromised the legality of the overall NSA domestic surveillance project."...


...But even if we never face a national emergency, the mere existence of the database is a matter of concern. "The capacity for future use of this information against the American people is so great as to be virtually unfathomable," the senior government official says.

In any case, mass watch lists of domestic citizens may do nothing to make us safer from terrorism. Jeff Jonas, chief scientist at IBM, a world-renowned expert in data mining, contends that such efforts won't prevent terrorist conspiracies. "Because there is so little historical terrorist event data," Jonas tells Radar, "there is not enough volume to create precise predictions."

The overzealous compilation of a domestic watch list is not unique in postwar American history. In 1950, the FBI, under the notoriously paranoid J. Edgar Hoover, began to "accumulate the names, identities, and activities" of suspect American citizens in a rapidly expanding "security index," according to declassified documents. In a letter to the Truman White House, Hoover stated that in the event of certain emergency situations, suspect individuals would be held in detention camps overseen by "the National Military Establishment." By 1960, a congressional investigation later revealed, the FBI list of suspicious persons included "professors, teachers, and educators; labor-union organizers and leaders; writers, lecturers, newsmen, and others in the mass-media field; lawyers, doctors, and scientists; other potentially influential persons on a local or national level; [and] individuals who could potentially furnish financial or material aid" to unnamed "subversive elements." This same FBI "security index" was allegedly maintained and updated into the 1980s, when it was reportedly transferred to the control of none other than FEMA (though the FBI denied this at the time).


...In July 2007 and again last August, Representative Peter DeFazio, a Democrat from Oregon and a senior member of the House Homeland Security Committee, sought access to the "classified annexes" of the Bush administration's Continuity of Government program. DeFazio's interest was prompted by Homeland Security Presidential Directive 20 (also known as NSPD-51), issued in May 2007, which reserves for the executive branch the sole authority to decide what constitutes a national emergency and to determine when the emergency is over. DeFazio found this unnerving.

But he and other leaders of the Homeland Security Committee, including Chairman Bennie Thompson, a Mississippi Democrat, were denied a review of the Continuity of Government classified annexes. To this day, their calls for disclosure have been ignored by the White House. In a press release issued last August, DeFazio went public with his concerns that the NSPD-51 Continuity of Government plans are "extra-constitutional or unconstitutional." Around the same time, he told the Oregonian: "Maybe the people who think there's a conspiracy out there are right."...

Congress itself has recently widened the path for both extra-constitutional detentions by the White House and the domestic use of military force during a national emergency. The Military Commissions Act of 2006 effectively suspended habeas corpus and freed up the executive branch to designate any American citizen an "enemy combatant" forfeiting all privileges accorded under the Bill of Rights. The John Warner National Defense Authorization Act, also passed in 2006, included a last-minute rider titled "Use of the Armed Forces in Major Public Emergencies," which allowed the deployment of U.S. military units not just to put down domestic insurrections—as permitted under posse comitatus and the Insurrection Act of 1807—but also to deal with a wide range of calamities, including "natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack, or incident."...

..."We are at the edge of a cliff and we're about to fall off," says constitutional lawyer and former Reagan administration official Bruce Fein. "To a national emergency planner, everybody looks like a danger to stability. There's no doubt that Congress would have the authority to denounce all this—for example, to refuse to appropriate money for the preparation of a list of U.S. citizens to be detained in the event of martial law. But Congress is the invertebrate branch. They say, 'We have to be cautious.' The same old crap you associate with cowards. None of this will change under a Democratic administration, unless you have exceptional statesmanship and the courage to stand up and say, 'You know, democracies accept certain risks that tyrannies do not.'"...

...Meanwhile, the mystery of James Comey's testimony has disappeared in the morass of election year coverage. None of the leading presidential candidates have been asked the questions that are so profoundly pertinent to the future of the country: As president, will you continue aggressive domestic surveillance programs in the vein of the Bush administration? Will you release the COG blueprints that Representatives DeFazio and Thompson were not allowed to read? What does it suggest about the state of the nation that the U.S. is now ranked by worldwide civil liberties groups as an "endemic surveillance society," alongside repressive regimes such as China and Russia? How can a democracy thrive with a massive apparatus of spying technology deployed against every act of political expression, private or public? (Radar put these questions to spokespeople for the McCain, Obama, and Clinton campaigns, but at press time had yet to receive any responses.)...

Christopher Ketcham writes for Harper's, GQ, and Mother Jones, among other publications. He splits his time between Utah and Brooklyn, NY.



LOL LOL LOL Your on a list alright.

Adam
05-31-2008, 07:36 AM
Ah, deflection. It was a tough question that would have been hard for you to give an honest answer to. Someone might want to hold you to it.

For my part, I'm not afraid to give honest answers, even if it makes me unpopular. Yes, I believe there would had to have been some sort of inside component in order to plant the explosives in the buildings. Especially building 7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azdkPT4eDaE).

Now why don't you try?

Just curious - do you ever visit somethingawful.com? Of all the sites I frequent they have by far the best "intenet detectives". I'd be interested to see what some of the regulars take was on the 9/11 truther videos from a standpoint of authenticity. I'm sure it's come up before somewhere on the site.

StcChief
05-31-2008, 02:33 PM
Everyone who has clicked on this thread is definitely on The List.and Vbull is tracking every thread viewer by Id, I have my doubts, counting thread views....

well only the schema could tell, since I haven't seen that

whoman69
06-02-2008, 06:55 PM
Hypothetically, where would 8 million people be detained? Assuming they aren't the 2+ million criminals already incarcerated. FEMA camps?

New Orleans

mikey23545
06-02-2008, 07:17 PM
You mean the powerful tyrant George Bush (who won't even be in office after the next election) is coming to get me?

Good God, some of you people need to grow up.

Adept Havelock
06-03-2008, 09:32 AM
You mean the powerful tyrant George Bush (who won't even be in office after the next election) is coming to get me?

Good God, some of you people need to grow up.

And others need to stop relying on strawman arguments. :rolleyes:

Hog Farmer
06-03-2008, 10:00 AM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=167308&highlight=Martial