PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs Gretz:"Mini-Camp Surprises"


Kerberos
06-08-2008, 06:51 AM
I didn't get to go this year (didn't want to really) but it sounds like it might have been a good time.

Anyone that went see any of this or is it just more whitewash from One Arrowhead Drive's mouthpiece?


http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2008/06/08/minicamp_surprises/



Mini-Camp Surprises
Jun 08, 2008, 2:45:16 AM by Bob Gretz - FAQ


For those fans that used part of their Saturday and attended the Chiefs mini-camp practice session at Arrowhead Stadium there had to be shock and great surprise.

We aren’t talking about all the big holes dug into the ground outside the stadium that are part of the stadium renovation. We also are not talking about all the new names on the roster. Fans have been hearing about the new young faces for months now and knew walking into the building that of the 92 players that were on the field, only 35 had been there the last time the Chiefs took to the playing surface.

What had to be surprising is some of what the Chiefs showed their fans during the 90-minute practice. There were three very noticeable items:

Bootlegs by the Chiefs quarterbacks.
Audibles by the Chiefs quarterbacks.
Man-to-man pass defense by the Chiefs defense.
Let’s start with the bootlegs. The Chiefs defense has had the quarterback boot thrown in their face, especially by the Denver Broncos, for the better part of the last two decades. It started with John Elway and has rolled through to Jay Cutler, and it was especially popular in those seasons with Jake Plummer at quarterback.

One reason the Chiefs struggled with the bootleg is because they never saw it during practice. Under Marty Schottenheimer, Gunther Cunningham and Dick Vermeil, plays were not often designed for quarterback movement. Oh, the scout team would run bootlegs in the week of the Denver game especially, but seldom was it shown in practice.

There’s one thing about defensive players that never changes: the more they see a particular play, the more they understand how to stop the same play. Based on that, the Chiefs defense should be the best in the league playing against the boot in 2008. Since the first OTA practice session, new offensive coordinator Chan Gailey has had his quarterbacks on the move. It’s something both Brodie Croyle and Tyler Thigpen seem comfortable doing. Same for the left-handed David Greene. Given the Chiefs rebuilding on the offensive line, it only makes sense to give the scheme some options that would help the blockers.

Fans may have noticed something else about the offense during the practice: the quarterbacks were actually calling audibles. They would come to the line of scrimmage, start the snap count and then pull back and either verbally or visually announce a change in the play.

This is not a new concept in offensive football, but it’s not something the Chiefs quarterback has been able to do over the previous seven seasons. Under the old Vermeil-Saunders-Solari offense, there was no established audible system. There were times when the offense might go to the line with two plays and the quarterback would pick one, but there was no planned way for the offense to get out of a bad play.

That’s changed now. The Chiefs will have an audible system.

Defensively during the Saturday afternoon workout, fans got to see the new young defensive backs on the roster play some man-to-man pass coverage. The Chiefs have not done much man-to-man over the last two years; they’ve been predominately in zone pass coverage. Why? A lack of cornerbacks who combined the coverage skills and knowledge with the foot speed and quickness necessary to play the defense.

But youngsters Brandon Flowers, Brandon Carr and Maurice Leggett are growing in confidence and understanding of the Chiefs defense and in the last few practices, they have played man-to-man coverage. If the young cornerbacks continue to improve, Cunningham will have many more options when it comes to calling his defenses.

On those three items alone, it has to be a surprising Saturday for Chiefs fans.


The opinions offered in this column do not necessarily reflect those of the Kansas City Chiefs.

HypnotizedMonkey
06-08-2008, 08:32 AM
well... I'm more surprised that they didn't even PRACTICE against the f-ing bootleg???? no wonder we got ate up by that so much.
I like the audibles, the Chantaur has my support already.

blueballs
06-08-2008, 09:34 AM
Bob I beg you - buy season tickets Gretz

siberian khatru
06-08-2008, 09:54 AM
Audibles by the Chiefs quarterbacks.

:eek:

Deberg_1990
06-08-2008, 10:00 AM
IOne reason the Chiefs struggled with the bootleg is because they never saw it during practice. Under Marty Schottenheimer, Gunther Cunningham and Dick Vermeil, plays were not often designed for quarterback movement. Oh, the scout team would run bootlegs in the week of the Denver game especially, but seldom was it shown in practice.



Sounds like Chan Gailey is already starting to make a huge difference with this offense.

But the most disturbing thing in that whole story was the above. WTF???? Now we know.

beach tribe
06-08-2008, 11:03 AM
WOW. As ststed above, if there were no bootlegs in practice, someone should be slapped in the face.

milkman
06-08-2008, 11:07 AM
WOW. As ststed above, if there were no bootlegs in practice, someone should be slapped in the face.

If you're slapped in the face and are too stupid to realize you've been slapped in the face, did any slapping actually take place?

Hydrae
06-08-2008, 11:09 AM
There’s one thing about defensive players that never changes: the more they see a particular play, the more they understand how to stop the same play. Based on that, the Chiefs defense should be the best in the league playing against the boot in 2008.

No, that would be the Broncos who are the best against the boot. They have practiced against it for years.

beach tribe
06-08-2008, 11:11 AM
If you're slapped in the face and are too stupid to realize you've been slapped in the face, did any slapping actually take place?

I think that is what happened to us on many Sundays against Denver.

If we would have realized we were slapped in the face we would have been running bootlegs repeatedly in practice.

Bearcat
06-08-2008, 11:27 AM
Given the Chiefs rebuilding on the offensive line, it only makes sense to give the scheme some options that would help the blockers.


Sounds much better than calling the one-step-drop wideout screen every other play...

...the quarterbacks were actually calling audibles.

This is not a new concept in offensive football, but itís not something the Chiefs quarterback has been able to do over the previous seven seasons.



It's not new to football, just the Chiefs. LMAO :doh!:

doomy3
06-08-2008, 11:34 AM
If you're slapped in the face and are too stupid to realize you've been slapped in the face, did any slapping actually take place?

ROFL

Easy 6
06-08-2008, 11:35 AM
:eek:

No doubt, God forbid the QB have the option to change an obviously bad play...cant believe its taken this long.

Deberg_1990
06-08-2008, 11:39 AM
No doubt, God forbid the QB have the option to change an obviously bad play...cant believe its taken this long.

Well considering that Saunders created the best offense the Chiefs have ever had, i wont complain too much about the no Audible thing. Im sure they had their reasoning.


Its not like that offense didnt work.

blueballs
06-08-2008, 11:42 AM
What KC Qbs could have run the bootleg
not exactly a bunch of mobile signal callers

Easy 6
06-08-2008, 11:44 AM
Well considering that Saunders created the best offense the Chiefs have ever had, i wont complain too much about the no Audible thing. Im sure they had their reasoning.


Its not like that offense didnt work.

Thats all true, but i'm sure there were many times when Trent wanted to change up but couldnt.

I really like everything that Gailey is doing so far, i think we'll quickly forget these last 2 years.

SNR
06-08-2008, 12:47 PM
Thats all true, but i'm sure there were many times when Trent wanted to change up but couldnt.

I really like everything that Gailey is doing so far, i think we'll quickly forget these last 2 years.Exactly! Having a QB like Trent Green who knows the offense up and ****in down, even better than Al Saunders at times, and then just plug him in as a robot set to accomplish a command from upstairs? The most well-versed person in that offense is ON THE FIELD, seeing the defensive coverage, and he has no ability to change stuff up if it looks bad for that play?

There's NO excuse for that. Even if the offensive didn't cover an audible system, the Chiefs could have very easily plugged one in just for Trent. Hell, we played the guy for 7 friggin seasons, it's not like we wouldn't have gotten any use out of it.

Easy 6
06-08-2008, 12:55 PM
Exactly! Having a QB like Trent Green who knows the offense up and ****in down, even better than Al Saunders at times, and then just plug him in as a robot set to accomplish a command from upstairs? The most well-versed person in that offense is ON THE FIELD, seeing the defensive coverage, and he has no ability to change stuff up if it looks bad for that play?

There's NO excuse for that. Even if the offensive didn't cover an audible system, the Chiefs could have very easily plugged one in just for Trent. Hell, we played the guy for 7 friggin seasons, it's not like we wouldn't have gotten any use out of it.

Flexability is everything in the NFL.

FAX
06-08-2008, 01:04 PM
It is very strange, Mr. SNR. Of course, the offense in those years was nothing short of spectacular, so it's difficult to find fault.

Still, it makes one wonder what might have happened in that Indy game had Trent seen something he could have taken advantage of and handed the ball off for a short gain instead. I suppose we'll never know unless Elephant Lady asks him the question some time in the future.

FAX

Coogs
06-08-2008, 01:04 PM
Thats all true, but i'm sure there were many times when Trent wanted to change up but couldnt.



I really think Green couldn't audible because of the 854 shifts that needed to take place on every single play. To complex of a system to allow for audibles. Not that it was a bad thing, 'cause that system and those players lit up the scoreboard.

But others systems can put up points as well, including this system. We will be fine. Maybe even this season.

Easy 6
06-08-2008, 01:06 PM
We will be fine. Maybe even this season.

KEEP HOPE ALIVE!

FAX
06-08-2008, 01:09 PM
I really think Green couldn't audible because of the 854 shifts that needed to take place on every single play. To complex of a system to allow for audibles. Not that it was a bad thing, 'cause that system and those players lit up the scoreboard.

But others systems can put up points as well, including this system. We will be fine. Maybe even this season.

Your point about the shifting is well-taken, Mr. Coogs. Keep in mind, though, that we could run almost anything out of any formation in those glorious days.

Once they were set (or even prior), I think we probably could have audibled.

As for this system, I'm preparing myself for the 3 yards/dust cloud/4 martini per fan just to survive Sunday offense.

FAX

beach tribe
06-08-2008, 01:19 PM
It is very strange, Mr. SNR. Of course, the offense in those years was nothing short of spectacular, so it's difficult to find fault.

Still, it makes one wonder what might have happened in that Indy game had Trent seen something he could have taken advantage of and handed the ball off for a short gain instead. I suppose we'll never know unless Elephant Lady asks him the question some time in the future.

FAX

How about the Philly game a couple of years ago when Trent obviously wanted to change the play, but couldn't, and it led to losing a 17 point lead?

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-08-2008, 01:21 PM
Well considering that Saunders created the best offense the Chiefs have ever had, i wont complain too much about the no Audible thing. Im sure they had their reasoning.


Its not like that offense didnt work.

exactly what i was going to say....not being able to audible didn't hurt the saunders offense.

FAX
06-08-2008, 01:23 PM
How about the Philly game a couple of years ago when Trent obviously wanted to change the play, but couldn't, and it led to losing a 17 point lead?

I think I've blocked that game from my memory, Mr. beach tribe.

Did our defense even take the field in the second half? I forget.

FAX

DeezNutz
06-08-2008, 01:29 PM
How about the Philly game a couple of years ago when Trent obviously wanted to change the play, but couldn't, and it led to losing a 17 point lead?

Ahh the game that gets overlooked because of LJ's look-out block in Dallas...

Shaid
06-08-2008, 01:36 PM
Well considering that Saunders created the best offense the Chiefs have ever had, i wont complain too much about the no Audible thing. Im sure they had their reasoning.


Its not like that offense didnt work.

If I remember correctly, Trent said something along the lines that audibles weren't really necessary because the play calling was designed so that there were "outs" built into it.

Now I'm not sure how that could really work in the run game but I can see how in the pasing game you could design plays to counter what the defense might do.

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-08-2008, 01:41 PM
Ahh the game that gets overlooked because of LJ's look-out block in Dallas...

Meh LJ ripped that Dallas D to shreds that day well with a lot of help from the o-line. The thing that bothers me the most about that game was the "pass interference" call on DJ on 4th down that would have ended the game. I think ole Jerry gave the ref a little extra pocket change that day.

BigRock
06-08-2008, 09:11 PM
Given the Chiefs rebuilding on the offensive line, it only makes sense to give the scheme some options that would help the blockers.
"No, it doesn't. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard." - Mike Solari

keg in kc
06-08-2008, 09:16 PM
Good changes that I dont' think a lot of folks were surprised by.

Rausch
06-08-2008, 09:43 PM
KEEP HOPE ALIVE!

THOUGHT CRIME!1!

To lose is to win (Higher draft picks!)

Carl isn't building our team he's destroying it (despite drafting 3 HOF'ers and adding 3 more!)

Running is backwards!

Defensive teams lose championchips!

Our coach (Marty/DV/Gun/Herm) demotivates our players!

Hating on your team shows how much you LOVE them!

http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/1984-movie-5fingers-3.gif

beach tribe
06-08-2008, 10:18 PM
THOUGHT CRIME!1!

To lose is to win (Higher draft picks!)

Carl isn't building our team he's destroying it (despite drafting 3 HOF'ers and adding 3 more!)

Running is backwards!

Defensive teams lose championchips!

Our coach (Marty/DV/Gun/Herm) demotivates our players!

Hating on your team shows how much you LOVE them!

http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/1984-movie-5fingers-3.gif

:clap:

Dave Lane
06-08-2008, 10:45 PM
No doubt, God forbid the QB have the option to change an obviously bad play...cant believe its taken this long.

Vermiel and Saunders had it in all the time. I remember Trent audibling out all the time. Blob is slobbering on whoevers knob is in power and saying how the last time he told you things were great under "X" you shouldn't have believed him.

Dave

Count Alex's Losses
06-08-2008, 10:49 PM
Vermiel and Saunders had it in all the time. I remember Trent audibling out all the time. Blob is slobbering on whoevers knob is in power and saying how the last time he told you things were great under "X" you shouldn't have believed him.

Dave

No, he's right. The audible system was extremely limited. You almost never saw it. Jake ****ing Plummer audibled more. The only time I ever saw Trent audible extensively was during the no-huddle, when of course he was in nearly complete control.

Rausch
06-08-2008, 10:53 PM
Vermiel and Saunders had it in all the time. I remember Trent audibling out all the time. Blob is slobbering on whoevers knob is in power and saying how the last time he told you things were great under "X" you shouldn't have believed him.

Dave

They could, but didn't a lot.

There also wasn't a lot of need or a $#it ton of time. There were shifts and motions that ate up play clock. Half the time the other team was so ****ing confused (under Saunders) that there was no need to audible. They'd pretty much done that after the 1st time they got set.

You don't have to be a geni(0)us to consider that some of those shifts just might have been due to the look of the defense after lining up...

keg in kc
06-09-2008, 12:25 AM
Vermiel and Saunders had it in all the time. I remember Trent audibling out all the time. Blob is slobbering on whoevers knob is in power and saying how the last time he told you things were great under "X" you shouldn't have believed him.They never had an audible system. They had a very limited "check with me" system, where Green had the ability to choose at the line between 2 plays that Saunders had called. I've heard Green and Saunders both talk about this dozens of times on KC sports radio, and there's a whole article from back in '06 on it if you don't want to take a random CP poster's word for it: link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-chiefscamp082506&prov=yhoo&type=lgns).

(It's a fun article to read for a variety of reasons...)

Fruit Ninja
06-09-2008, 12:34 AM
WOW. As ststed above, if there were no bootlegs in practice, someone should be slapped in the face.

That is huge right there. I never thought of it that way. Explains why it would kill us so much. Well, that and the D wasnt good lol.

BigRock
06-09-2008, 02:54 AM
This is from a Whitlock column after the Philly game. It says pretty much everything.

With the Chiefs up 17-0 thanks to an 8-yard pitch-and-catch between Trent Green and Eddie Kennison, offensive coordinator Al Saunders got a tad greedy and a bit lazy midway through the second quarter. On second and 14, Saunders remembered how easily Kennison scored when the Chiefs emptied their backfield and the Eagles went man-to-man deep in the red zone.

Perched on the KC 35 — 40 yards removed from the red zone — Saunders called for another empty-backfield set and another easy pitch to Kennison. This time Philly coach Andy Reid and his staff demonstrated why they’ve been to four straight NFC championships and the Chiefs haven’t won a playoff game since 1993. The Eagles adjusted to KC’s empty-back set and went zone. Sheldon Brown was waiting on Green’s toss to Kennison. Brown jumped the route and raced 40 yards into the end zone.

The pick-6 awakened the sleep-walking Eagles to the possibility of a rally. The interception infuriated Green. As he jogged to the sideline after the interception, Green flung his right arm in disgust.

After the game, Green tried his best not to talk about the interception.

“I don’t want to open a can of worms,” Green told me privately after a gaggle of reporters stepped away.

He said he wasn’t surprised at all that the Eagles adjusted their defensive look. You expected it?

“We all did,” Green said.

The problem is Saunders’ “system” doesn’t allow the quarterback to audible or for receivers to adjust their routes. Green and Kennison could see the zone defense and anticipate the danger, but they were powerless to do anything about it.

“He can’t do what Peyton Manning does at the line of scrimmage, even though (Green) could,” said tight end Tony Gonzalez.

Like keg's article showed, when Herm came in there was a lot of talk about giving Trent the time to change plays at the line if needed. Then Robert Geathers came to town and that topic never really resurfaced.

DaneMcCloud
06-09-2008, 03:12 AM
This is from a Whitlock column after the Philly game. It says pretty much everything.



Like keg's article showed, when Herm came in there was a lot of talk about giving Trent the time to change plays at the line if needed. Then Robert Geathers came to town and that topic never really resurfaced.

Trent who?

Pushead2
06-09-2008, 04:36 AM
Whomp whomp, Trent who indeed.....

Chiefnj2
06-09-2008, 08:39 AM
So now the story is that the Chiefs didn't play man on man coverage because of the players, not because Herm installed the cover 2 the minute he arrived.

InChiefsHell
06-09-2008, 08:39 AM
This is from a Whitlock column after the Philly game. It says pretty much everything.



Like keg's article showed, when Herm came in there was a lot of talk about giving Trent the time to change plays at the line if needed. Then Robert Geathers came to town and that topic never really resurfaced.

Sure OK, they couldn't audible...but Trent COULD HAVE thrown the ball away, couldn't he? I loved Trent, but that was a stupid friggin' argument...Saunders MADE him throw a pic...mmmmmkay...

Count Alex's Losses
06-09-2008, 09:36 AM
So now the story is that the Chiefs didn't play man on man coverage because of the players, not because Herm installed the cover 2 the minute he arrived.

That's been the story for awhile, and it's accurate. Playing man coverage the majority of the time with Law and Surtain is asking to be horrible on defense.

And besides, they have played man at times both of Herm's years. They mix it up.

KC Kings
06-09-2008, 11:43 AM
WOW. As ststed above, if there were no bootlegs in practice, someone should be slapped in the face.

They did run them against the practice squad, but Trent Green isn't exactly what you would call a mobile QB. I'm not sure what good it would have done to run it in slow motion.

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-09-2008, 11:56 AM
Well even if trent didn't like the play against philly, he didn't HAVE to throw the pass that lead to the INT touchdown.

InChiefsHell
06-09-2008, 11:57 AM
Well even if trent didn't like the play against philly, he didn't HAVE to throw the pass that lead to the INT touchdown.

Bingo.

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-09-2008, 11:58 AM
So now the story is that the Chiefs didn't play man on man coverage because of the players, not because Herm installed the cover 2 the minute he arrived.

You can still play a bit of man to man even if you play cover 2 a majority of the time. I wouldn't want ty law man 2 man on a reciever at this stage of his career, would you? Now that they have the young horses, they can mix in a bit more man 2 man.

Redrum_69
06-09-2008, 12:04 PM
WAIT


We have a QUARTERBACK named DAVID GREENE?!?!?!?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_Ties

BigRock
06-09-2008, 03:03 PM
Sure OK, they couldn't audible...but Trent COULD HAVE thrown the ball away, couldn't he?
Sure, but we're years past having to defend Trent Green on an INT. The audible system (or lack thereof) was the point.