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ChiefsFanatic
06-11-2008, 07:52 PM
You don't have to be a professional to answer this question, so feel free to help me out.

What I want to know is that if a house is listed at one price, and you offer the asking price with no contingencies, are there some sort of ethics or rules about the seller (in this case a bank) accepting the offer if no other offers exist? Or, maybe not rules, but doesn't there need to be good faith on the sellers part to actually sell the property?

Please, I know I sound idiotic, bit I really don't know. To me, it would seem that in order to list a property, you should have to sell if someone offers you the full amount.

What leads me to ask this question is there is a house I want to purchase, we made an offer and the bank ignored it and it expired. Well, we really want this house so we offered the asking price, but the bank is once again ignoring our offer. They still have the house listed at what we offered, and I am pretty sure that they don't have a better offer because it has been listed at this price for almost three months, and have had 6 offers including our first offer.

So, can someone help me out?

Brock
06-11-2008, 07:54 PM
The only think I can think of is that they don't like your prospects for being able to afford the house. :shrug:

ChiefsFanatic
06-11-2008, 07:58 PM
The only think I can think of is that they don't like your prospects for being able to afford the house. :shrug:

I thought about that too, but we have an approval letter for quite a bit more that the asking price, plus we are putting down 20K, which is not 20% but a considerable chunk of change.

DenverDanChiefsFan
06-11-2008, 07:59 PM
No, but I stayed at a Holliday Inn Express last night - what can I do for you?

Brock
06-11-2008, 07:59 PM
You're going to have to go get some face to face time to solve this mystery I think.

BigVE
06-11-2008, 08:01 PM
Most people don't start looking for a home until they have been approved for a loan OR have loads of cash in the bank already (from selling a home already) so IF that is the case I can't see why the bank would ignore your offer. I think laws vary a little bit by state but YES I do think that they technically should have to accept your offer unless they have a good enough reason not to. Good luck.

Bacon Cheeseburger
06-11-2008, 08:05 PM
I remember the late Bob Bruss writing about a situation like this once, and IIRC he suggested that if they're getting a lot of offers perhaps they're waiting for one over the asking price.

SBK
06-11-2008, 08:05 PM
Don't take this wrong, I'm not trying to be mean, but anyone that offers asking price is stupid. Nothing is selling now, offer below asking price. Way below!

Your initial offer is the start of negotiations, they could counter you for higher than asking price, I've seen that done before. It's a good way to make sure your house doesn't sell though.

ChiefsFanatic
06-11-2008, 08:31 PM
Don't take this wrong, I'm not trying to be mean, but anyone that offers asking price is stupid. Nothing is selling now, offer below asking price. Way below!

Your initial offer is the start of negotiations, they could counter you for higher than asking price, I've seen that done before. It's a good way to make sure your house doesn't sell though.

Normally I would agree with you, but this property is significantly under market, by about 25 grand. That is why I did not hesitate to offer what they are asking. I am not flipping this house, but with about 10 grand in after asking price, I could easily make a profit of 25-30 grand.

The value of the home is one of the big reasons why I wanted to know about good faith on the sellers part, because if you list and offer it at a certain price, and that price is met, I believe you should be obligated to make the sale (in absence of a better offer)

SBK
06-11-2008, 09:18 PM
Normally I would agree with you, but this property is significantly under market, by about 25 grand. That is why I did not hesitate to offer what they are asking. I am not flipping this house, but with about 10 grand in after asking price, I could easily make a profit of 25-30 grand.

The value of the home is one of the big reasons why I wanted to know about good faith on the sellers part, because if you list and offer it at a certain price, and that price is met, I believe you should be obligated to make the sale (in absence of a better offer)

Don't mind me, I would only buy at wholesale prices anyway, so the discount has to be 40%+.

Rain Man
06-11-2008, 09:33 PM
It would seem to me that a property owner doesn't have to sell his/her own property just because someone made a market price offer on it. The only exception, of course, is if the government made the offer in which case they can take your property for whatever price they want to pay for it through eminent domain since government massively abuses eminent domain laws.

I'm not a lawyer (though I do know a little Latin), but I'd bet if you were a protected group (i.e., not white male), you could possibly sue them to get the house, but that wouldn't be a whole lot of fun.

ChiefsFanatic
06-11-2008, 10:22 PM
It would seem to me that a property owner doesn't have to sell his/her own property just because someone made a market price offer on it. The only exception, of course, is if the government made the offer in which case they can take your property for whatever price they want to pay for it through eminent domain since government massively abuses eminent domain laws.

I'm not a lawyer (though I do know a little Latin), but I'd bet if you were a protected group (i.e., not white male), you could possibly sue them to get the house, but that wouldn't be a whole lot of fun.

It is almost like a bait and switch. I am not saying they have to sell at all, but they are the ones that determined the listing price. If they were not going to sell at the listed price, they should not have listed it at all.

banyon
06-11-2008, 10:26 PM
It would seem to me that a property owner doesn't have to sell his/her own property just because someone made a market price offer on it. The only exception, of course, is if the government made the offer in which case they can take your property for whatever price they want to pay for it through eminent domain since government massively abuses eminent domain laws.

I'm not a lawyer (though I do know a little Latin), but I'd bet if you were a protected group (i.e., not white male), you could possibly sue them to get the house, but that wouldn't be a whole lot of fun.

I've defended some people in Fair Housing Act complaints. In my case, it was totally frivolous, as they had offered the property to other persons of the same racial class after they rejected the complainant's offer (which was below asking) and later accepted a higher bid, closer to asking price. But there are legitimate cases too and I don't know if this applies to his situation or not.

Also, the OP seems to have some of the terms backwards. If they have a list price, then that is the seller's offer. If you agree to it (for real estate it has to usually be in writing), then that's acceptance of the deal and they are bound by it. If you name a lower price than asking, then technicaly, you are counter-offering, and you are leaving it up to the sellers to accept your counteroffer (again, because it's real estate, must be in writing).

The worst thing I always saw in common R/E transactions would be that the parties would agree to a contract in writing, then they would tak about some other stuff that wasn't written down. The seller would say "oh yeah, I'll take care of that". Then after closing (or before) it would not be done. The buyer would then decide it's time to talk to a lawyer (might've helped before now) and most of the time they've already screwed themselves by then. "Great, so you've decided to call me after you signed the contract. Awesome." (of course there are still many good reasons to contact a lawyer in that situation as well, but still...) . GET IT IN WRITING. ALL OF IT.

I guess the first question I would have is What reason did they give for rejecting your offer?

Phobia
06-11-2008, 10:32 PM
They're under no obligation to actually sell the property. Of course, it's in their best interest to do so considering the circumstances but nobody HAS to sell what they've listed even if they appear ready to do so.

It sounds to me like a bunch of incompetence on the part of the bank or the listing agent.

ClevelandBronco
06-11-2008, 10:37 PM
You don't have to be a professional to answer this question, so feel free to help me out.

What I want to know is that if a house is listed at one price, and you offer the asking price with no contingencies, are there some sort of ethics or rules about the seller (in this case a bank) accepting the offer if no other offers exist? Or, maybe not rules, but doesn't there need to be good faith on the sellers part to actually sell the property?

No, the seller does not have to accept a full purchase price offer. He is free to negotiate up.

Please, I know I sound idiotic, bit I really don't know. To me, it would seem that in order to list a property, you should have to sell if someone offers you the full amount.

What leads me to ask this question is there is a house I want to purchase, we made an offer and the bank ignored it and it expired. Well, we really want this house so we offered the asking price, but the bank is once again ignoring our offer. They still have the house listed at what we offered, and I am pretty sure that they don't have a better offer because it has been listed at this price for almost three months, and have had 6 offers including our first offer.

So, can someone help me out?

Look for another property or offer more.

ClevelandBronco
06-11-2008, 10:37 PM
It would seem to me that a property owner doesn't have to sell his/her own property just because someone made a market price offer on it. The only exception, of course, is if the government made the offer in which case they can take your property for whatever price they want to pay for it through eminent domain since government massively abuses eminent domain laws...

Isn't that the truth.

jAZ
06-12-2008, 01:42 AM
You don't have to be a professional to answer this question, so feel free to help me out.

What I want to know is that if a house is listed at one price, and you offer the asking price with no contingencies, are there some sort of ethics or rules about the seller (in this case a bank) accepting the offer if no other offers exist? Or, maybe not rules, but doesn't there need to be good faith on the sellers part to actually sell the property?

Please, I know I sound idiotic, bit I really don't know. To me, it would seem that in order to list a property, you should have to sell if someone offers you the full amount.

What leads me to ask this question is there is a house I want to purchase, we made an offer and the bank ignored it and it expired. Well, we really want this house so we offered the asking price, but the bank is once again ignoring our offer. They still have the house listed at what we offered, and I am pretty sure that they don't have a better offer because it has been listed at this price for almost three months, and have had 6 offers including our first offer.

So, can someone help me out?
Sounds like "range pricing" to me.

Basically the listing party lists the property in MLS at a price which is the low end of a range. They really want to sell the property (their real asking price) for the high end of that range.

Example:

Seller bough house for $300K 5 years ago. Market sucks, they can't get any offers at that price, so they lower the price to $250K. That's not working, but they can't really afford to take less, so they use "range pricing".

They change the MLS asking price to $225K, and put in a note that says "seller will enterain all offers between $225K and $250K". Sounds stupid (I thought, well, that means they will take as little as $225K. So that's what I'll offer... or even less).

The idea is to catch people searching for a max of $225K in MLS, get them excited about the house and negotiate them up past their upper limit because they get emotionally invested.

We just went though this with a new house we are in the process of buying right now. We ended up getting the house in question for about $5K more than their minimum asking price. But at one point (after offering well below what they put as the minimum of the range), they so completely rejected our last offer, that they refused a counter offer and actually raised the price range in MLK by $10K believing they were getting too many offers at too little money.

Rain Man
06-12-2008, 07:34 AM
Also, the OP seems to have some of the terms backwards. If they have a list price, then that is the seller's offer. If you agree to it (for real estate it has to usually be in writing), then that's acceptance of the deal and they are bound by it. If you name a lower price than asking, then technicaly, you are counter-offering, and you are leaving it up to the sellers to accept your counteroffer (again, because it's real estate, must be in writing).
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Reading this, it sounds like you're saying that the seller is legally obligated to accept a full-price offer. Is that true, or am I misreading it? I guess I would've thought that until a contract was signed, either party could pull out at any time.

banyon
06-12-2008, 07:43 AM
Reading this, it sounds like you're saying that the seller is legally obligated to accept a full-price offer. Is that true, or am I misreading it? I guess I would've thought that until a contract was signed, either party could pull out at any time.

Real Estate law is different in every state. If you had a firm offer in writing, though (not a listing), and a firm acceptance in writing, then I think you have formed a contract, even if it's not on Real Estate Association approved forms. There are cases of forcing people to sell who have made such offers on cocktail napkins in bars (the issue at trial was whether they were drunk).

The rationale behind having real estate contracts in writing is called the statute of frauds. So long as it meet that, I think you have a contract. Listings only don't usually satisfy the statute of frauds. For an example, here is the Kansas statute:

33-106. Specific cases where writing required. No action shall be brought whereby to charge a party upon any special promise to answer for the debt, default or miscarriage of another person; or to charge any executor or administrator upon any special promise to answer damages out of his own estate; or to charge any person upon any agreement made upon consideration of marriage; or upon any contract for the sale of lands, tenements, or hereditaments, or any interest in or concerning them; or upon any agreement that is not to be performed within the space of one year from the making thereof, unless the agreement upon which such action shall be brought, or some memorandum or note thereof, shall be in writing and signed by the party to be charged therewith, or some other person thereunto by him or her lawfully authorized in writing

Rain Man
06-12-2008, 07:48 AM
Real Estate law is ...

Ah, that makes sense, but I wonder if the key is "firm acceptance". I could see cases where someone might make me an offer on my house at my asking price, but I would say no. For example, if a sexual offender halfway house wanted to buy my place at asking price, and all of my next door neighbors had young children and MILFs who sunbathed topless, I don't think my conscience would let me accept the offer. Similarly, if my neighbor was a refrigerator salesman who kept his samples on the porch and frazod made me an offer, I don't think I could do it. Hopefully I could legally decline the offers in those cases.

ChiefsFanatic
06-12-2008, 02:05 PM
Sounds like "range pricing" to me.

Basically the listing party lists the property in MLS at a price which is the low end of a range. They really want to sell the property (their real asking price) for the high end of that range.

Example:

Seller bough house for $300K 5 years ago. Market sucks, they can't get any offers at that price, so they lower the price to $250K. That's not working, but they can't really afford to take less, so they use "range pricing".

They change the MLS asking price to $225K, and put in a note that says "seller will enterain all offers between $225K and $250K". Sounds stupid (I thought, well, that means they will take as little as $225K. So that's what I'll offer... or even less).

The idea is to catch people searching for a max of $225K in MLS, get them excited about the house and negotiate them up past their upper limit because they get emotionally invested.

We just went though this with a new house we are in the process of buying right now. We ended up getting the house in question for about $5K more than their minimum asking price. But at one point (after offering well below what they put as the minimum of the range), they so completely rejected our last offer, that they refused a counter offer and actually raised the price range in MLK by $10K believing they were getting too many offers at too little money.

That could very well be what is going on here. I wish we could get the bank to even respond, though. They have assigned someone, but the listing agent told me that the bank told her not to even contact the person they assigned. The bank told her that the assigned person would have to contact her. I don't know how they think they are going to sell the house when they wont respond to offers, and the agent they listed it with cant communicate properly.

It is frustrating as hell.

SBK
06-12-2008, 02:49 PM
That could very well be what is going on here. I wish we could get the bank to even respond, though. They have assigned someone, but the listing agent told me that the bank told her not to even contact the person they assigned. The bank told her that the assigned person would have to contact her. I don't know how they think they are going to sell the house when they wont respond to offers, and the agent they listed it with cant communicate properly.

It is frustrating as hell.

Oh, it's bank owned? You're wasting your time. Banks are the dumbest sellers on planet earth. They're going to act like this with a full price offer, you're going to walk away and 6 months from now they'll sell it for 1/2 of what you're offering blaming it on market demand. Just watch.

mikeyis4dcats.
06-12-2008, 02:50 PM
something weird is going on. I'd call the bank and see if they ACTUALLY got your offer.

ChiefsFanatic
06-12-2008, 03:00 PM
Oh, it's bank owned? You're wasting your time. Banks are the dumbest sellers on planet earth. They're going to act like this with a full price offer, you're going to walk away and 6 months from now they'll sell it for 1/2 of what you're offering blaming it on market demand. Just watch.

I already want to strangle them. The house was originally listed at about 25k more than it is now. But after a couple of months, it was dropped 5k, then after another month another 8k, then after two more months it was dropped another 12k, and has been that price since April 1st.

something weird is going on. I'd call the bank and see if they ACTUALLY got your offer.

I can't actually contact the bank. The listing agent is the only one that can contact the bank. Our agent delievered our offer to her, and she took it to the bank representative. From what our agent says, the listing agent really wants to sell the house and be done with it because it apparently eats up a lot of her time, and has for months, with no results.