GM to file for Bankruptcy

[Dave Lane]

Its all over the place GM is going down. Don't buy any GM product as its likely they will file bankruptcy shortly and may never emerge. Hopefully they will cut all pensions and liquidate but who knows! They probably got a sweet heart real estate deal so let em go!

Bye bye nice knowing ya!!

Dave

http://www.thestreet.com/newsanalysis/investing/10423696.html

[Programmer]

GM Should File for Bankruptcy

Basically what is being said is as Cramer posted. SHOULD.

The situation is bad, but as in the past with Chrysler the government will likely bail them out as the loss of that many jobs would have a tremendous impact on America. Whether it's Bush or the next president, there will be a bail out or restructuring to save the jobs.

[recxjake]

I'm glad your so happy about this... My family is ****ed... thanks.

38 years my dad has worked for GM....

[HonestChieffan]

They wont declare...for gods sake 60 days ago they were beeing heralded for sales that beat toyota

[BigChiefDave]

Nice thread. No sure why anyone would be in favor of this...

[Direckshun]

The bad news here is that a lot of mid- and low-level innocent employees who did their jobs as best as they could are going to suffer 'cause GM refused to keep up with the global market.

Extremely unfortunate, extremely preventable.

[recxjake]

They wont declare...for gods sake 60 days ago they were beeing heralded for sales that beat toyota

They won't... 21 billion cash on hand.... another 20 billion they can borrow. They will start benefiting from all of those buyouts at the end of the year. The Chevy Volt will help them as well.

[HonestChieffan]

bad news is some people will bite on this sort of alarmist bullshit

[Adept Havelock]

They wont declare...for gods sake 60 days ago they were beeing heralded for sales that beat toyota

From the front page:

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=161806

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/24/news/international/toyota_gm.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

Heck, one of the senior guys at GM said they expect it would be three years before they can show a profit again. That should make the shareholders happy... :shake:

That's what happens when you make an inferior product for so long. It sucks, but it is what it is.

[recxjake]

From the front page:

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=161806

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/24/news/international/toyota_gm.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

They beat Toyota in June.....


Look how bad Toyta sales dropped in June... It's not GM

GM is in much better shape then Ford and Chrysler.

[Taco John]

I'm glad your so happy about this... My family is ****ed... thanks.

38 years my dad has worked for GM....



Know what? Your taxes provide the Toyota workers in Japan with a free national defense. They don't get taxed for their national defense. GM workers, along with the rest of us, provide it to them for free.

They say "domo arigato."

[Adept Havelock]

GM is in much better shape then Ford and Chrysler.

Pretty much the same as as saying your better off with Gonorrhea than Herpes. :shrug:

Don't worry too much. I'm sure the government will bail you out with other taxpayers hard-earned dollars. ;)

[recxjake]

Pretty much the same as as saying your better off with Gonorrhea than Herpes. :shrug:

Don't worry too much. I'm sure the government will bail you out with other taxpayers hard-earned dollars. ;)

No.. if you look at future product coming down the pipeline.... all chrysler has is the new Dodge Ram... that's gonna sell well at 4.00 gas... ROFL... they have terrible cars.

Ford is just screwed all together with everything they offer.

GM has the new Malibu, CTS, crossovers out this year that are doing very well. GM has figured out that quality and MPG matter most... and if you have look at their recent product and what is coming down the pipeline, you will know they are making that happen.

[Donger]

I'm glad your so happy about this... My family is ****ed... thanks.

38 years my dad has worked for GM....

Why would your family be "f*cked" if GM declares?

[recxjake]

Why would your family be "f*cked" if GM declares?

GM Pension... would be cut in half... luckily he got rid of most of the stock a few years ago... I'm sure insurance and all of that would be messed with as well.

[WilliamTheIrish]

The bad news here is that a lot of mid- and low-level innocent employees who did their jobs as best as they could are going to suffer 'cause GM refused to keep up with the global market.

Extremely unfortunate, extremely preventable.


And every one of those low to mid level managers willingly took the job knowing the risk involved. Of course, there are probably hundreds or thousands that were too starry eyed to comprehend what a crummy company GM is when you break them down financially.
However, if you've kept even a slight tab on business news, you HAD to know GM was facing this kind of calamity.

[Donger]

GM Pension... would be cut in half... luckily he got rid of most of the stock a few years ago... I'm sure insurance and all of that would be messed with as well.

How nauseatingly antiquated.

[Adept Havelock]

No.. if you look at future product coming down the pipeline.... all chrysler has is the new Dodge Ram... that's gonna sell well at 4.00 gas... ROFL... they have terrible cars.

Ford is just screwed all together with everything they offer.

GM has the new Malibu, CTS, crossovers out this year that are doing very well. GM has figured out that quality and MPG matter most... and if you have look at their recent product and what is coming down the pipeline, you will know they are making that happen.

Really? Just a few posts ago you were claiming this completely f***ed your family. :spock:

I guess expecting consistency from you for even a post or two is far too much to expect.

Just be grateful for those taxpayer dollars that will keep your incompetent company afloat. ;)

[dirk digler]

I'm glad your so happy about this... My family is ****ed... thanks.

38 years my dad has worked for GM....

HAHA who was right

[Pittsie]

I'm glad your so happy about this... My family is ****ed... thanks.

38 years my dad has worked for GM....

I'm guessing the apple didn't fall far from the tree, so I can't say I'm sympathetic....

[recxjake]

I'm guessing the apple didn't fall far from the tree, so I can't say I'm sympathetic....

wow.

[recxjake]

HAHA who was right

Did they file... No... misleading thread title.

[dirk digler]

Did they file... No... misleading thread title.

So that means I have to have proof to be right I just can't say that I am right?

Anyway I hope your family gets taken care if they do. I would hate that to happen to anybody.

[recxjake]

So that means I have to have proof to be right I just can't say that I am right?

Anyway I hope your family gets taken care if they do. I would hate that to happen to anybody.

Thank you.... the last I heard, GM Pension was overfunded and would be protected if they did file... FYI... my dad wasn't a union guy... he didn't make 50 bucks an hour on the line and getting paid if they closed the plant down. He worked his butt off on the financing side, and I would hate to see him and many other GM employees who aren't unionized lose out..... because they never striked, or demanded crazy things... they just worked.

[Adept Havelock]

Anyway I hope your family gets taken care if they do. I would hate that to happen to anybody.

They will be. Courtesy of you, me, and other US Taxpayers most likely. You're welcome, Jake.

[Programmer]

I'm not saying that it will happen, I seriously doubt that it could.

In 2004-2005 the wage for plant operators with the UAW in Louisiana were making $26.00 per hour. The trades people were making nearly $31.00 an hour. A new deal with the UAW allowed new floor workers to come in at $16.00 per hour with no hope of ever getting above $18.00 for the life of their employment. The plant was a subsidiary of GM. All of the equipment assembled there went to GM less one product that was sold to Ford.

Not too long ago that plant was shutdown and the equipment transferred to a sister plant in Mexico or sold off. The hourly workers were given a severance package in 6 figures if they worked with the company over 18 years. They also were given a GM retirement package that was worth a percentage of their expected retirement. If they worked over 20 years they got their years of service / 30. If you worked 26 years you received 26/30's of your expected pension. They also got health insurance for the rest of their lives, plus their family.

Salaried people were just cut off, no severance but with the same retirement package.

There were less than 1000 hourly employees at that plant and in the vicintiy of 50 salaried employees. I understand that this same reduction in force and facilities has been ongoing from 2006 to date.

If they were going to go through the bankruptcy they have already taken steps to lessen the impact on people to a point.

Will they file? Who knows, but the people that do get cut will have one hell of a time getting $26.00 an hour (or the going UAW rate in their general locale) at any other type of manufacturing facility.

[patteeu]

I'm guessing the apple didn't fall far from the tree, so I can't say I'm sympathetic....

:spock:

[Dave Lane]

Well I wondered how long it would take to shake up Reject! Actually it was on CNN this morning that GM insiders had said they were planning on filing for bankruptcy protection probably within the month.

Dave

[whoman69]

Prices of gas have been going up steadily since Katrina and these idiots are still figuring working on their SUVs engineering.

[Jenson71]

Prices of gas have been going up steadily since Katrina and these idiots are still figuring working on their SUVs engineering.

Exactly. I don't feel a bit sorry for them.

[Nightfyre]

I blame unions. That is all.

[Programmer]

I blame unions. That is all.

There was a time when unions were needed in this country. There may be some cases that they are still needed.

I feel that most employers can have a bargaining agreement with the employees that would keep the atrocities of the past from re-emerging.

[bunnytrdr]

There is nothing to fear as long as there are Nascar fans buying cars.

[Laz]

government shouldn't bail them out


and the rules for bankruptcy should be change to keep companies from using it and a free "get out of debt" card

[Programmer]

government shouldn't bail them out


and the rules for bankruptcy should be change to keep companies from using it and a free "get out of debt" card

Agreed, but will they?

[BigChiefDave]

government shouldn't bail them out


and the rules for bankruptcy should be change to keep companies from using it and a free "get out of debt" cardI agree. Alot of people work for these companies, though. Our gov't knows it cannot afford a huge company like GM go under. Thats alot of tax revenue. Not to mention how many people would be out of a job.

[BigChiefDave]

I blame unions. That is all.What he said...

[Laz]

I agree. Alot of people work for these companies, though. Our gov't knows it cannot afford a huge company like GM go under. Thats alot of tax revenue. Not to mention how many people would be out of a job.
do you actually think GM is going to close their doors?


nah .... this is just a new way for companies to drop debt,restructure and get the gov. to foot some of the bill.

[Dave Lane]

government shouldn't bail them out


and the rules for bankruptcy should be change to keep companies from using it and a free "get out of debt" card

Well I disagree a Judge does have to make a decision on which debt they can be relieved from its not as simple as saying I want a get out of jail card.

Dave

[Stewie]

Sorry if this hurts your dad's retirement recxjake. My neighbor was a longtime employee of Westinghouse/AT&T/Lucent before they finally shut the plant. They have to battle every year to keep some of their benefits. It's a constant headache for him.

GM was giving cars away in June to boost sales. It doesn't do the company any good to boost sales if they're losing money on the deals. Take those GM beat Toyota numbers with a grain of salt.

GM can burn through $41 billion in months.

I blame management for kowtowing to the unions back in the day with promises they knew would never work out financially, but why should mgt care back then? They knew they'd be long gone when the shit hit the fan. They got their fat salaries and pensions years and years ago.

[mmaddog]

Nice to see a lot of misinformation coming out....especially from recxjake. How about a little better info than what is handed down from the GM PR Department....

First off, GM doesn't have any "hot" autos coming out that are lighting up their profit margin. In fact, GM has so many issues that can affect their ability to survive that many people are hedging on a needed bailout from either the Government or the Lenders/Suppliers. First, they still have a VERY large liability when it comes to the pension plan for the spun-off Delphi Corp. employees, and we all know the issues with Delphi. They (Delphi) have had to ask for an extension on their emergence from Bankruptcy because one of the proposed backers had concerns about GM's participation in the emergence lending package.

Second, GM didn't get anywhere near the expected participation in the "early buy out" proposal that was floated. They were hoping to get better participation from older employees so they could replace them with lower cost new employees that would allow them to match Toyota's per worker cost. And they failed.....so back to the drawing board.

Their stock price has suffered immensely, at it's lowest point in 33 years, and it has lost almost 50% of the company's market value in the last 2 months. The biggest kick was the recent Goldman Sachs downgrading to Sell from Neutral. Their YOY sales are down 15% for autos and 25% for truck (their normal mainstay). They are struggling not only with their income, but also their legacy expenses, increased material costs, and of course UAW wages. And as Stewie so capable said, GM can burn through their available cash reserves in months.....don't even believe that "war chest" can save them forever.

I have several other things I could point out, but you get the gist....GM has many issues facing it's attempt to regain it's foothold in the American auto-buying market.

mmaddog
*******

[mmaddog]

Thank you.... the last I heard, GM Pension was overfunded and would be protected if they did file... .

Not so for both assertions.

mmaddog
*******

[Stewie]

Not so for both assertions.

mmaddog
*******

One thing I don't understand (because my company doesn't offer one) is pensions. Aren't they annuities bought with money accrued over the duration of the employee's employment? I would think that would divorce the pension from the performance of the company. I know pension funds are raided (underfunded) and maybe they can't buy the annuities required for the promised retirement.

[mmaddog]

They beat Toyota in June.....


Look how bad Toyta sales dropped in June... It's not GM

GM is in much better shape then Ford and Chrysler.

WOW.....so much to say here, I will make it brief.

1) Ford is actually in much better shape than GM. They have gotten the needed cuts, actually have revamped their product line to address the desires of their customers, and their trends have been a little more positive.

2) Chrysler is the only other automaker in worse shape than GM, but that isn't saying much. Chrysler will probably need to dump Jeep, their only profitable sales line, to be able to right the ship. One only needs to look at their recent exercising of the $2b LOC held by Cerberus and their previous parent Daimler, and the downward sales trend (down 19%) to see they are a troubled company.

3) GM may have beaten TMC in sales, but what about where it counts..."Profitability'....I doubt GM could touch that. And that is probably even counting Toyota's recall of all Tacoma's from '95-'99 for possible frame rust. They offered to give the owners of all eligible vehicles 150% of the retail value depending on the condition of the vehicle at inspection. I doubt any US automaker would make the same offer.

mmaddog
*******

[mmaddog]

One thing I don't understand (because my company doesn't offer one) is pensions. Aren't they annuities bought with money accrued over the duration of the employee's employment? I would think that would divorce the pension from the performance of the company. I know pension funds are raided (underfunded) and maybe they can't buy the annuities required for the promised retirement.

Pensions are not "guaranteed" monies....there are many, many people who can attest to that. I worked for one of the largest textile companies in the US a few years back just before it went Bankrupt. You might want to ask those people how much of their pension plan they are getting.

One of the biggest problems for many companies is the "underfunded" status of their pension plans.

mmaddog
*******

[Stewie]

Pensions are not "guaranteed" monies....

Ay, there's the rub. I thought they were based on the annuity scenario I mentioned above. So, it's solely based on the company's ability to pay? Screw that. I'll take my 401K that is outside the control of my employer. Now if the banks stay solvent I'll be OK. :)

[mmaddog]

government shouldn't bail them out


and the rules for bankruptcy should be change to keep companies from using it and a free "get out of debt" card

IMO, GM won't file Bankruptcy but will seek concessions from everyone from workers to creditors (both secured and unsecured), to the governments (local, state and Feds) and anyone they can "cram down" their plan on.

As for Bankruptcy, the Code has changed over the last year. It is harder for companies to file and get debt "forgiven" than it has ever been. The number of cases has risen over last year, but the number of cases filed last year was down because everyone was holding off until there were interpretations by the Bankruptcy Courts on the new statutes.

Now, on the consumer side, it's a totally different story.

mmaddog
*******

[mmaddog]

Ay, there's the rub. I thought they were based on the annuity scenario I mentioned above. So, it's solely based on the company's ability to pay? Screw that. I'll take my 401K that is outside the control of my employer. Now if the banks stay solvent I'll be OK. :)

If your plan is covered by the PBGC (Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation) you might be OK. Otherwise, I wouldn't trust any company-funded plan.

mmaddog
*******

[Stewie]

If your plan is covered by the PBGC (Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation) you might be OK.

PBGC pays 50 cents on the dollar from what I remember. I'm sure it will be less if there are lots of claims.

[mmaddog]

PBGC pays 50 cents on the dollar from what I remember. I'm sure it will be less if there are lots of claims.

Sometimes more....but yes, the average is 50 cents on the dollar.

Most people can do better on their own.

mmaddog
*******

[Nightfyre]

There was a time when unions were needed in this country. There may be some cases that they are still needed.

I feel that most employers can have a bargaining agreement with the employees that would keep the atrocities of the past from re-emerging.

Unions did a lot of good for the common man. But they are a labor trust and should be treated as such. The actual value of labor as projected by supply and demand is much lower than people want to believe. Hence, we are exporting a lot of our menial labor to other countries. The Union Labor Trusts obviously couldn't take the heat of the competition. :shrug: Imagine how appalled everyone would be if there was a grocery trust. Ironic, no?

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Whether you like Rex or not, you're a pathetic piece of trash if you don't feel sorry for the situation affecting people working for GM right now. I sure hope you don't claim to be Christian in the same breath. Then again, the hypocrisy would be quite fitting. Have fun at the house of sinners tomorrow.

[banyon]

Unions did a lot of good for the common man. But they are a labor trust and should be treated as such. The actual value of labor as projected by supply and demand is much lower than people want to believe. Hence, we are exporting a lot of our menial labor to other countries. The Union Labor Trusts obviously couldn't take the heat of the competition. :shrug: Imagine how appalled everyone would be if there was a grocery trust. Ironic, no?

Disaster capitalism at its finest.

[Nightfyre]

Disaster capitalism at its finest.

k.

[CRONUS]

I'm guessing the apple didn't fall far from the tree, so I can't say I'm sympathetic....Lord I hope you are wrong, one is all the world can handle. Hell one is too many for this BB. Though quality entertainment.o:-)

[mmaddog]

Whether you like Rex or not, you're a pathetic piece of trash if you don't feel sorry for the situation affecting people working for GM right now. I sure hope you don't claim to be Christian in the same breath. Then again, the hypocrisy would be quite fitting. Have fun at the house of sinners tomorrow.

Wow...way cool, someone hijacking the thread.

Do I have sympathy for those working at a company who has incompetent management driving it further into the ground? Sure do, because I have been there before.

Do I have sympathy for those in the Union who would have assisted in the decline of this company by demands that even reasonable people find obscene? Absolutely not.

Sounds to me like you are personally affected and are having a hard time being objective. So let me help you a little....

Are you just as concerned for the companies that provide services to GM? Have you ever been concerned about all the little companies that supplied to GM that went out of business every time the Union or the auto-maker shut down? How about all the lenders who financed operations for these small companies who lost valued profits for investors?

And just for grins and giggles, why the shot at "Christians"? Is it misplaced anger? Are you making the incorrect assumption that it is only Christians who are showing glee over GM's situation? I am a Christian and I feel for every GM worker who is sitting at home worried about his/her future. But I also feel for the worker at the small companies praying that GM stays afloat so they won't lose their jobs....I feel for anyone affected by the possibility of a collapse by GM.

But don't ask me to feel sorry for any person who contributed to the mess that GM is in....and part of the blame must go to the workers themselves. Not sure how much of an insight you have into the operations there, but the stories of waste and excess are many both by Management and Union.

mmaddog
*******

[Dave Lane]

Really this was a one person thread. Reject was the only one i cared to see the post, I was curious how bad he would spaz out. And I did work for GM for several years in the union and management so I understand and have way more sympathy than the poking Reject in the eye would indicate.

Dave

[mmaddog]

Really this was a one person thread. Reject was the only one i cared to see the post, I was curious how bad he would spaz out. And I did work for GM for several years in the union and management so I understand and have way more sympathy than the poking Reject in the eye would indicate.

Dave

Then you have a pretty good idea what I am talking about when I say mismanagement.

mmaddog
*******

[recxjake]

Production Volt will be ready by September!

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idCAN0741637620080707?rpc=44

Hopefully they will be out next summer!

[markk]

What's GM trading for today, under $10?

I just read that their stock is at its lowest level since 1954.

[dirk digler]

It is a step in the right direction I suppose but only using the battery for 40 miles is kind of limiting. It will save me 1 gallon of gas.

BTW what is the price going to be?

[markk]

Looking at Reuters just now:

price in late 2003: ~$54.00
price last october: ~$42.00
latest share price: $10.13

[Dave Lane]

Then you have a pretty good idea what I am talking about when I say mismanagement.

mmaddog
*******

Absolutely. They and the unions tied their legs together and jumped in the deep end of the pool. Fitting results really.

And if Reject would agree never to reproduce and to remove himself from the gene pool I'd probably let up on him.

Really its probably the worlds greatest fear and should be the singular issue on which this election hangs. Neuter Reject!!

Dave

[Adept Havelock]

Really its probably the worlds greatest fear and should be the singular issue on which this election hangs. Neuter Reject!!

Dave

ROFL

It wouldn't do any good. Like any bacterium, I suspect he reproduces asexually.

[Dave Lane]

ROFL

It wouldn't do any good. Like any bacterium, I suspect he reproduces asexually.

Damn it you're right of course! Well back to the drawing board. Really his personality would be the greatest barrier to reproduction anyway.

Dave

[recxjake]

It is a step in the right direction I suppose but only using the battery for 40 miles is kind of limiting. It will save me 1 gallon of gas.

BTW what is the price going to be?

what the heck are you talking about?

40 miles on battery... then the engine kicks on and recharges the battery... range of 600+ miles...

70% of americans drive less then 40 miles a day... won't use gas daily...

[dirk digler]

what the heck are you talking about?

40 miles on battery... then the engine kicks on and recharges the battery... range of 600+ miles...

70% of americans drive less then 40 miles a day... won't use gas daily...

Ok that makes it sound better. I just read where it said it would use the battery for the first 40 miles. Just curious while driving how long does it take to recharge the battery?

Also what the cost?

[recxjake]

Ok that makes it sound better. I just read where it said it would use the battery for the first 40 miles. Just curious while driving how long does it take to recharge the battery?

Also what the cost?

The engine doesn't power the car at all... it's a generator... after 40 miles it pops on and recharges them. It will take you 640 miles, then you have to get more gas. There is talk they are going to add solar panels to charge the batteries while sitting in the parking lot all day long/driving, etc.. but that will most likely be the second generation.

Cost is all speculation right now... GM wanted it in the high 20's but they are racing to get this out. so the first M Y will be higher... up to 40,000 with a 7-10,000 goverment rebate for purchasing an "extended range hybrid" from the Govt.

[dirk digler]

The engine doesn't power the car at all... it's a generator... after 40 miles it pops on and recharges them. It will take you 640 miles, then you have to get more gas. There is talk they are going to add solar panels to charge the batteries while sitting in the parking lot all day long/driving, etc.. but that will most likely be the second generation.

Cost is all speculation right now... GM wanted it in the high 20's but they are racing to get this out. so the first M Y will be higher... up to 40,000 with a 7-10,000 goverment rebate for purchasing an "extended range hybrid" from the Govt.

Ok thanks. sounds interesting though they will need to come down in price for it be worth while. Kind of like the fuel cell car by Honda IIRC it is going to be 40,000-50,000 and not alot of people will pay that much for a car.

[eazyb81]

what the heck are you talking about?

40 miles on battery... then the engine kicks on and recharges the battery... range of 600+ miles...

70% of americans drive less then 40 miles a day... won't use gas daily...

If so that would be pretty cool.

[Adept Havelock]

generation.

Cost is all speculation right now... GM wanted it in the high 20's but they are racing to get this out. so the first M Y will be higher... up to 40,000 with a 7-10,000 goverment rebate for purchasing an "extended range hybrid" from the Govt.

Why should my tax dollars go to subsidize a company who has proved repeatedly they are managerially incompetent?

It's an outrage! :cuss:

[SBK]

Why should my tax dollars go to subsidize a company who has proved repeatedly they are managerially incompetent?

It's an outrage! :cuss:

I'm with you, I'd rather it go to people who sit on their ass all day and don't even try.

[Adept Havelock]

I'm with you, I'd rather it go to people who sit on their ass all day and don't even try.

:spock:

If you want the latter, you certainly aren't "with me".

[recxjake]

Why should my tax dollars go to subsidize a company who has proved repeatedly they are managerially incompetent?

It's an outrage! :cuss:

The same offer goes to Toyota, Honda, etc... it's not just GM... it extended range hybrids....

[Adept Havelock]

The same offer goes to Toyota, Honda, etc... it's not just GM... it extended range hybrids....

So why should my tax dollars go to subsidize any of that? If it's a good enough product, let it sell or not on it's own merits. Interesting that such a "conservative" young man would be trumpeting a government handout like this.

I guess it's only a matter of principle when it doesn't affect you or your family (by propping up GM's incompetence).

[SALEEN 209]

Heres the thing I work for GM so this is first hand inside info. Im sure some of you will want me to prove it, So here we go. I work at the GM Fairfax plant we make the Malibu and saturn Aura! GM just bought out 58,000 people in the last 2 years! 30,000 will be replaced with people with an average wage of $14.00 an hour They got rid of 3 billion in healthcare a year, and they just took care of 62 million in past bills. They have more assets than Donald Trump and Bill Gates combined.

The DUMB F**K who wrote that story is going by what he thinks is going to happen! I read the article when it came out and read what the other reporters had to say and they all said the same thing. GM is to BIG with to much money and to many assets to go bankrupt! They have a strong hold on other markets. The only market that they are slideing in is the one all the automakers are slideing in North America! LOOK IT UP!

Oh also I just wanted to say you all can thank Bush for this! When he took over for Clinton everyone was makeing money now nobody is! Thanks Bush:banghead:

[mmaddog]

Heres the thing I work for GM so this is first hand inside info. Im sure some of you will want me to prove it, So here we go. I work at the GM Fairfax plant we make the Malibu and saturn Aura! GM just bought out 58,000 people in the last 2 years! 30,000 will be replaced with people with an average wage of $14.00 an hour They got rid of 3 billion in healthcare a year, and they just took care of 62 million in past bills. They have more assets than Donald Trump and Bill Gates combined.

The DUMB F**K who wrote that story is going by what he thinks is going to happen! I read the article when it came out and read what the other reporters had to say and they all said the same thing. GM is to BIG with to much money and to many assets to go bankrupt! They have a strong hold on other markets. The only market that they are slideing in is the one all the automakers are slideing in North America! LOOK IT UP!

Oh also I just wanted to say you all can thank Bush for this! When he took over for Clinton everyone was makeing money now nobody is! Thanks Bush:banghead:

Sorry....but what you posted is nowhere near "inside info", any good analyst can find all that information out. So let's look at what you posted...

First while GM has bought out 58k employees, it is nowhere near the number they need to have to bring the employee costs down to match that of Toyota, the industry leader.

I would challenge that number when it comes to the reduced healthcare costs....that number will grow again when the buyout employees are replaced with the new $14 an hour employees.

And while they have more assets than Bill Gate and Donald Trump(a bad example if you truly know your finance numbers) combined, they also have an inordinate amount of debt incurred. And for some reason no one wants to take into account the liabilities that they have to assume for Delphi.

And the statement that GM is too big with too much money to go Bankrupt....I will say two words.....Montgomery Wards! That vaunted cash trove you seem to think is there can disappear very easily for a company as large as GM. NO ONE is immune to financial distress and the prospects of filing Bankruptcy Protection....and anyone who thinks that it hasn't been dissected over and over behind closes doors at GM is fooling themselves.

BTW, how did that strike at American Brake and Axle bode for GM?

mmaddog
*******

[Programmer]

Heres the thing I work for GM so this is first hand inside info. Im sure some of you will want me to prove it, So here we go. I work at the GM Fairfax plant we make the Malibu and saturn Aura! GM just bought out 58,000 people in the last 2 years! 30,000 will be replaced with people with an average wage of $14.00 an hour They got rid of 3 billion in healthcare a year, and they just took care of 62 million in past bills. They have more assets than Donald Trump and Bill Gates combined.

The DUMB F**K who wrote that story is going by what he thinks is going to happen! I read the article when it came out and read what the other reporters had to say and they all said the same thing. GM is to BIG with to much money and to many assets to go bankrupt! They have a strong hold on other markets. The only market that they are slideing in is the one all the automakers are slideing in North America! LOOK IT UP!

Oh also I just wanted to say you all can thank Bush for this! When he took over for Clinton everyone was makeing money now nobody is! Thanks Bush:banghead:

GM and the rest of the U.S. automobile manufacturers had a chance to start making fuel efficient cars years ago and opted for the big SUV's. They are just now rushing to find better fuel economy so they can reclaim some of the market they have lost to the japanese manufacturers.

This has nothing to do with Clinton or Bush and has everything to do with the arrogance of the U.S. auto makers.

As for the $14.00 an hour. In 2004-2005 the GM plant I was associated with was paying old union $26.00 and new union $16.00. I can't see them dropping the wages again in such a short time, not even with their financial woes.

I think you are off center with your commentary.

[Silock]

I think you're all missing the point.

GM still sucks. However, them declaring bankruptcy would be BAD for the US.

[Programmer]

I think you're all missing the point.

GM still sucks. However, them declaring bankruptcy would be BAD for the US.

It would be, and it isn't going to be as bad as you think. The gov will bail them out just as they did with Chrysler a few years ago. Not to mention Raytheon in the late 70's or early 80's. Both companies ended up providing equipment and vehicles to the gov to keep the companies viable for employment and prospective projects that they didn't want killed.

[Nightwish]

No.. if you look at future product coming down the pipeline.... all chrysler has is the new Dodge Ram... that's gonna sell well at 4.00 gas... ROFL... they have terrible cars.

Ford is just screwed all together with everything they offer.

GM has the new Malibu, CTS, crossovers out this year that are doing very well. GM has figured out that quality and MPG matter most... and if you have look at their recent product and what is coming down the pipeline, you will know they are making that happen.
So far, the Japanese have had a distinct advantage in hybrids. Right now, the race is on between GM and Toyota to perfect and release the first electric/gas (as opposed to gas/electric) hybrid. GM hopes to do that with the Volt, and it will be a major boost to them if they can get it out before Toyota comes out with theirs.

[markk]

If they filed for bankruptcy, would that allow them to shed all the dead weight from the years they had their hand down the UAW's pants? that might be the only way to save them.

[recxjake]

GM and the rest of the U.S. automobile manufacturers had a chance to start making fuel efficient cars years ago and opted for the big SUV's. They are just now rushing to find better fuel economy so they can reclaim some of the market they have lost to the japanese manufacturers.

This has nothing to do with Clinton or Bush and has everything to do with the arrogance of the U.S. auto makers.

As for the $14.00 an hour. In 2004-2005 the GM plant I was associated with was paying old union $26.00 and new union $16.00. I can't see them dropping the wages again in such a short time, not even with their financial woes.

I think you are off center with your commentary.

They make 10,000 on an SUV, they make 100.00 on a Cobalt.

[Amnorix]

One thing I don't understand (because my company doesn't offer one) is pensions. Aren't they annuities bought with money accrued over the duration of the employee's employment? I would think that would divorce the pension from the performance of the company. I know pension funds are raided (underfunded) and maybe they can't buy the annuities required for the promised retirement.

You could easily buy a book to cover all this stuff, I'll give you the 2 minute version, and i"m no expert, so maybe others will correct me.

There are in broad terms two types of pensions. "Defined benefit" and "Defined contribution". The former type means that if you do XYZ, then we will pay you ABC dollars for the rest of your life after you retire. Defined BENEFIT.

That's the type Big Auto and other heavily unionized, mostly manufacturing and government jobs had forever. Now, everyone is trying to cut them down or kill them, for they are poison. The accounting involved is also hugely difficult and subject to lots of made-up numbers and projections. Companies could show massive profits or losses on their books depending on alot of factors they couldnt' control, and would sometimes be forced by law to inject a bunch of money into the program. It's just brutal.

Defined contribution is where companies are going now, if they have a pension at all. It's basically "we'll give you X% on top of your salary into a nice little pension and when you retire, you will get it over time. When it runs out, it runs out. Sorry". Much better for companies as they are not forced ot keep pouring money into it whether they can afford it or not.

Defined benefit pensions need to die. Immediately.

And that most certainly includes government workers too!!! For good or for bad, however, governments can't go bankrupt in quite the same way, so it's hard to kill off such a horrible program.

[Amnorix]

They make 10,000 on an SUV, they make 100.00 on a Cobalt.


What are they going to make on a Volt? Right, negative income. It's insane.

[Amnorix]

2) Chrysler is the only other automaker in worse shape than GM, but that isn't saying much. Chrysler will probably need to dump Jeep, their only profitable sales line, to be able to right the ship. One only needs to look at their recent exercising of the $2b LOC held by Cerberus and their previous parent Daimler, and the downward sales trend (down 19%) to see they are a troubled company.



Actually, worse -- the fact that Daimler dumped them, and PAID to dump them onto a buyer, is the most amazing sign of all.

"Take this company off my hadns and I'll give you a check for $XYZ". Holy crapoli...

[Amnorix]

Ay, there's the rub. I thought they were based on the annuity scenario I mentioned above. So, it's solely based on the company's ability to pay? Screw that. I'll take my 401K that is outside the control of my employer. Now if the banks stay solvent I'll be OK. :)


Oh yes, I should have mentioned that pension funds can be messed with in a bankruptcy scenario as well, though companies do fund the pension plan and I'm pretty sure that TO THE EXTENT they have been funded, those monies stay in the plan.

The trick is that those monies won't last forever, and companies in bankruptcy and avoid some/all of their defined benefit obligations under the existing plan.

[Amnorix]

Production Volt will be ready by September!

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idCAN0741637620080707?rpc=44

Hopefully they will be out next summer!


Am I not right when I say that they plan to sell them at a loss? I thought that was the plan all along. I never could understand that. What good is selling cars at a loss.

[recxjake]

Am I not right when I say that they plan to sell them at a loss? I thought that was the plan all along. I never could understand that. What good is selling cars at a loss.

No profit... great press

[markk]

Actually, worse -- the fact that Daimler dumped them, and PAID to dump them onto a buyer, is the most amazing sign of all.

"Take this company off my hadns and I'll give you a check for $XYZ". Holy crapoli...

I think the only way Ford/GM/Chrysler are going to survive the consequences of decades of poor products and even poorer management is some kind of alliance.

Maybe one of them could die and the others could join under a common General Motors that might be able to compete with Toyota and Honda, because they sure can't now.

[markk]

No profit... great press

I hope GM can find some creditors who accept press instead of money.

[Amnorix]

No profit... great press


Ok. How does "great press" feed your family? If great press means you sell more of them, then you lose more! Woo hoo!!

General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote (http://uk.reuters.com/stocks/quote?symbol=GM.N), Profile (http://uk.reuters.com/stocks/companyProfile?symbol=GM.N), Research (http://uk.reuters.com/stocks/researchReports?symbol=GM.N)) will have to sell the much-anticipated Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid at a loss initially, underscoring the challenge of rolling out alternatives to traditional cars, the president of the United Auto Workers union said on Wednesday.

"When GM brings out that electric car, they're going to be taking a huge loss on that for a number of years," UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said in a speech to a business group.

April 2nd article: http://uk.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUKN0218857820080402

[Adept Havelock]

No profit... great press

Yeah, the stockholders will be thrilled. What's GM trading at now? Ought to drop well below that as soon as they realize the hot new product won't improve profitability.

I hope GM can find some creditors who accept press instead of money.

And stockholders willing to forsake dividends for warm fuzzy feelings. LMAO

GM was recently downgraded to a "Sell". Before long, it will probably be downgraded to "Abandon Ship!".

[Amnorix]

I think the only way Ford/GM/Chrysler are going to survive the consequences of decades of poor products and even poorer management is some kind of alliance.

Maybe one of them could die and the others could join under a common General Motors that might be able to compete with Toyota and Honda, because they sure can't now.


More htan likely, one of them needs to die.

The other problem was that they all tried to pick up new lines and have 50 makes and 500 models. Stupid.

Look at Toyota. How many models do they have? Seriously? In the US it's what? 8 maybe? 10?

GM -- Buick, Oldsmobile, Chevy, Cadillac, Hummer and those are just the brands? How many models in each? I think they killed one of those (Olds?) recently, but it's insane. They are just hugely inefficient and believed in girth over streamlining, and the Japanese have been kicking our asses since the 80s six ways from Sunday.

UAW doesn't help either, no doubt about it. It's not all management. And nobody could have foreseen $4/gal oil 5 years ago. But still. :shake:

[markk]

And stockholders willing to forsake dividends for warm fuzzy feelings. LMAO

If i held a large GM position, I would be worried that this product that is supposed to pull their butts out of the fire following all this SUV and monster truck focus is going to be sold at a loss. They are going to end up low on cash by the time it's ready to go to market.

Next thing they know they start getting downgraded, they are a payment risk, people won't do business with them, they can't get financing, supply lines are stop and start... not good.

god forbid they have trouble with payroll or benefits, the unions will see what a critical point it is and really just put them to the sword.

And that's if they can even bring this thing out at a price people will pay.

They need to get bankruptcy started because it's going to be a decade before the UAW stops suing them and everything else and they can start as a 21st century company again

[markk]

More htan likely, one of them needs to die.

The other problem was that they all tried to pick up new lines and have 50 makes and 500 models. Stupid.

Look at Toyota. How many models do they have? Seriously? In the US it's what? 8 maybe? 10?

GM -- Buick, Oldsmobile, Chevy, Cadillac, Hummer and those are just the brands? How many models in each? I think they killed one of those (Olds?) recently, but it's insane. They are just hugely inefficient and believed in girth over streamlining, and the Japanese have been kicking our asses since the 80s six ways from Sunday.

UAW doesn't help either, no doubt about it. It's not all management. And nobody could have foreseen $4/gal oil 5 years ago. But still. :shake:

Yeah.. they compete against themselves.

Say Chrysler dies. Ford and GM come together. Lose all the redundant lines but keep the best selling vehicle in those classes. Keep the Jeep Wrangler but drop the other Jeeps. Keep the lincoln... LS, whatever, drop the others.

They need to differentiate too. All they seem to have is an economy car, a midsize, a fullsize, and then a million guzzlers. how about a little choice outside of the explorer/expedition/excursion f150/250/350/etc. set?

[Amnorix]

Yeah.. they compete against themselves.

Say Chrysler dies. Ford and GM come together. Lose all the redundant lines but keep the best selling vehicle in those classes. Keep the Jeep Wrangler but drop the other Jeeps. Keep the lincoln... LS, whatever, drop the others.

They need to differentiate too. All they seem to have is an economy car, a midsize, a fullsize, and then a million guzzlers. how about a little choice outside of the explorer/expedition/excursion f150/250/350/etc. set?


That puts you down to 1 car company in the US. That's probably not quite right. 3 isn't even all that bad, but they all seem to suck. Germany has 3 (Volkswagon, BMW and Mercedes), and Japan has 2 sizeable ones that are totally independent Honda/Toyota.

US can't get one to be rock solid for a number of reasons.

I'd like to see one die, preferably Chrysler, and have the assets plucked out of bankruptcy cheap by Ford/GM, and then see those two streamline the hell out of themselves rather than continue to try to be everything to everybody.

[markk]

That puts you down to 1 car company in the US. That's probably not quite right. 3 isn't even all that bad, but they all seem to suck. Germany has 3 (Volkswagon, BMW and Mercedes), and Japan has 2 sizeable ones that are totally independent Honda/Toyota.

US can't get one to be rock solid for a number of reasons.

I'd like to see one die, preferably Chrysler, and have the assets plucked out of bankruptcy cheap by Ford/GM, and then see those two streamline the hell out of themselves rather than continue to try to be everything to everybody.

i dont see it as 'only one car make' because all these companies compete globally. japanese cars flow freely onto and drive off US car lots. gm and other companies all compete for business in china and india and every other location in the world. it's not like there are walls around the american marketplace. the car market is a world market.

this way the US could have one strong and competitive and financially healthy company rather than zero.

[Programmer]

They make 10,000 on an SUV, they make 100.00 on a Cobalt.

I find it extremely hard to believe that they make $100.00 on a Cobalt.

The head lamps alone would show more profit than that. Our build price for the lamps was around $89.00 per unit, if you bought replacement headlamps they were $471.00 a pair in 2005.

[Programmer]

Am I not right when I say that they plan to sell them at a loss? I thought that was the plan all along. I never could understand that. What good is selling cars at a loss.


I seem to remember reading that the Volt will only be a lease vehicle. At the beginning there will be no ownership possibilities.

[Amnorix]

i dont see it as 'only one car make' because all these companies compete globally. japanese cars flow freely onto and drive off US car lots. gm and other companies all compete for business in china and india and every other location in the world. it's not like there are walls around the american marketplace. the car market is a world market.

this way the US could have one strong and competitive and financially healthy company rather than zero.


I agree, but my point is that I think ("hope" might be more appropriate) that the US can support two domestic, profitable and robust car companies. The North American market is sizeable and I'd like to think that we could have two players in the global car marketplace, not just one.

[markk]

I agree, but my point is that I think ("hope" might be more appropriate) that the US can support two domestic, profitable and robust car companies. The North American market is sizeable and I'd like to think that we could have two players in the global car marketplace, not just one.

Maybe if they shed all the pension related stuff. I'm sure eventually they will have to file and some presidential candidate will volunteer to bail the companies out of the pensions.

They really don't have any advantages over say, Toyota. And I think american makes' offerings overseas are almost exclusively in the economy car market or fleet vehicles.

Well, just look at people you may know here from other countries. How many drive American cars? i can't think of any foreigners that I know who do because of the reputation of american cars being very poor quality is even more pervasive overseas than it is here.

[Amnorix]

Maybe if they shed all the pension related stuff. I'm sure eventually they will have to file and some presidential candidate will volunteer to bail the companies out of the pensions.

No President can affect the pension matters that directly. That would be subject to bankruptcy law and the Bankruptcy Court.

Well, just look at people you may know here from other countries. How many drive American cars? i can't think of any foreigners that I know who do because of the reputation of american cars being very poor quality is even more pervasive overseas than it is here.

Probablyt rue, but there are other factors also. US car markers focusing on our domestic market, specializing in large gas hogs that aren't economically feasible in Europe and Asia, etc.

If Boeing can be an internationally acclaimed manufacturing company, I don't see why we can't have two decent car companies.

[markk]

I was thinking along the lines of congress comes up with some 'relief package for american auto workers' that amounts to corporate welfare for the pensions. maybe the government would sell it as being to keep them out of bankruptcy.

Boeing is one example, but their product is also competitive against their, well one or two competitors.

[Amnorix]

I was thinking along the lines of congress comes up with some 'relief package for american auto workers' that amounts to corporate welfare for the pensions. maybe the government would sell it as being to keep them out of bankruptcy.

Well, nothing so direct has ever happened before, so I don't see it as being very likely in the future either.

Boeing is one example, but their product is also competitive against their, well one or two competitors.

It's too expensive and difficult to get into. The barriers to entry are extremely high.

[mmaddog]

I was thinking along the lines of congress comes up with some 'relief package for american auto workers' that amounts to corporate welfare for the pensions. maybe the government would sell it as being to keep them out of bankruptcy..

You do that and every former Textile Worker in the US will be screaming so loud that the train wreck effect would give everyone in Washington whiplash.

mmaddog
*******

[mmaddog]

And anyone who thinks that GM can right itself by filing Bankruptcy needs to truly understand the ramifications of said filing.

And for everyone who seems to have skipped over it when I pointed it out...no one seems to be paying attention to GM's obligations to Delphi.

mmaddog
*******

[Programmer]

And anyone who thinks that GM can right itself by filing Bankruptcy needs to truly understand the ramifications of said filing.

And for everyone who seems to have skipped over it when I pointed it out...no one seems to be paying attention to GM's obligations to Delphi.

mmaddog
*******

Not to mention Guide Corporation among others.

[recxjake]

Update on the Chevy Volt tonight...

GM is cutting the Fuel tank in half to 7 gallons... still has a range of nearly 400 miles... The majority of people will not use gas on a daily basis, GM didn't war gas sitting in cars for months on end. It will also cut weight, and cost. The average car today has a range of 300-400 miles..... so it's not a big deal. (28 bucks to fill up)!

GM is going to release the car 1 year early... September 2009 it will begin hitting the showrooms....

The "E-Flex" sytem will then be added to a wide varity cars/trucks.... also will be compatible w/ diesel, E-85 and Hydrogen....

The great thing about high gas prices is that it makes America innovate... You can hate GM all you want... but the Chevy Volt is going to change the way America drives forever.

[Adept Havelock]

The great thing about high gas prices is that it makes America innovate... You can hate GM all you want... but the Chevy Volt is going to change the way America drives forever.

Not if the company can't show a profit on it, it won't.

What's GM trading at now? Do you really think "good press" is going to take the place of profitability in the eyes of the shareholders?

:doh!:

I almost forgot who I was talking to. Of course you're ignorant enough to believe they will.

[recxjake]

Not if the company can't show a profit on it, it won't.

What's GM trading at now? Do you really think "good press" is going to take the place of profitability in the eyes of the shareholders.

:doh!:

I almost forgot who I was talking to. Of course you're ignorant enough to believe they will.

They are on track for a profit next year. They have cut a ton... and are going to cut more...

[Adept Havelock]

They are on track for a profit next year. They have cut a ton... and are going to cut more...

You're FOS, as usual. They won't be showing a profit on the rest of their lines, their new "savior" you've already admitted won't make them any profit....

Your credibility is beyond abysmal. mmaddog has it nailed to a T.

$10 bucks a share? I'll be surprised if it's above that this time next year.

They probably won't go under. We taxpayers will bail out their incompetence. And that's a subsidy you'll applaud, regardless of your so-called "conservatism". :shake:

[CRONUS]

So what is Delphi anyway?

[Nightfyre]

You're FOS, as usual. They won't be showing a profit on the rest of their lines, their new "savior" you've already admitted won't make them any profit....

Your credibility is beyond abysmal. mmaddog has it nailed to a T.

$10 bucks a share? I'll be surprised if it's above that this time next year.

They probably won't go under. We taxpayers will bail out their incompetence. And that's a subsidy you'll applaud, regardless of your so-called "conservatism". :shake:

Can't have GM defaulting on its loans to banks and what not. That would make a few banks go under. Obviously, if Congress fails to step in, the fed will have to on behalf of the banks. Ah, the 'New' American Way.

[mmaddog]

They are on track for a profit next year. They have cut a ton... and are going to cut more...

You are spouting prognostications based on suppositions, and several of us have given you financial facts. Yet you continue to ignore them.....you are in the worst case of denial I have ever seen on ChiefsPlanet.

On what facts do you base your claim that they are headed on track to be profitable next year?

mmaddog
*******

[mmaddog]

So what is Delphi anyway?


Delphi is GM's largest supplier of parts. At one time they were a part of GM, but were spun off. GM still has Pension committments that they must honor. Additionally GM has committed a large $$ amount to assist Delphi in emerging from Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. Unfortunately, Delphi has been unable to find post-petition financing that the Court will approve to allow them to emerge. They did have a package ready at one time, but one of the lending groups backed out based on a concern of how much control GM would have based on it's contribution to the emergence financing package.

mmaddog
*******

[Adept Havelock]

You are spouting prognostications based on suppositions, and several of us have given you financial facts. Yet you continue to ignore them.....you are in the worst case of denial I have ever seen on ChiefsPlanet.

On what facts do you base your claim that they are headed on track to be profitable next year?

mmaddog
*******

Just FYI...when asked for facts to back up his political prognostications, this is the kind of thing he offered:

Florida baby... this is falling right into Rudy's lap... there is no frontrunner... Rudy wins Florida, wins big in Feb 5 states... Rudy's plan is going perfectly.

Huck defeats Romney... Check
McCain defeats Romney... Check (Romney toast)

McCain will win Michigan
Huckabee will in S. Carolina
Rudy will win Nevada
Rudy will win Florida
Rudy will win Illinois, New York, New Jersery, Conn, California, Del, etc etc...

AFAICS, his facts generally equal "because I really, really, want it to be that way".

Just think of him as the DC version of...

[Programmer]

So what is Delphi anyway?

You have to be kidding!

You don' remember what was on the NUMMI Building in Fremont before it became NUMMI?

GM Delphi?

[CRONUS]

Delphi is GM's largest supplier of parts. At one time they were a part of GM, but were spun off. GM still has Pension committments that they must honor. Additionally GM has committed a large $$ amount to assist Delphi in emerging from Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. Unfortunately, Delphi has been unable to find post-petition financing that the Court will approve to allow them to emerge. They did have a package ready at one time, but one of the lending groups backed out based on a concern of how much control GM would have based on it's contribution to the emergence financing package.

mmaddog
*******Thanks for the answer.

[CRONUS]

You have to be kidding!

You don' remember what was on the NUMMI Building in Fremont before it became NUMMI?

GM Delphi?
Looking that up I found this:

NUMMI is now an award-winning facility which ranks with other Toyota plants among the most productive manufacturing operations in North America. GM places around 12 managers each year at the plant to learn lean techniques and has improved quality enough across the rest of its operations for it to show through on J.D. Power quality rankings.

Not sure why that would be a negative for GM.

[Programmer]

Looking that up I found this:

NUMMI is now an award-winning facility which ranks with other Toyota plants among the most productive manufacturing operations in North America. GM places around 12 managers each year at the plant to learn lean techniques and has improved quality enough across the rest of its operations for it to show through on J.D. Power quality rankings.

Not sure why that would be a negative for GM.


How long have you lived in the area?

The NUMMI building was GM/Delphi for many years.

If you drive North on 880 you might be able to stop in and see the history display they have in the main lobby.

You asked a question about Delphi, I'm shocked that you didn't know they were part of the GM family.

[Amnorix]

And anyone who thinks that GM can right itself by filing Bankruptcy needs to truly understand the ramifications of said filing.

And for everyone who seems to have skipped over it when I pointed it out...no one seems to be paying attention to GM's obligations to Delphi.

mmaddog
*******

Delphi is a mess, and GM tried but couldn't shed it's problems when it spun Delphi off. What else is there to say? There's lots of ways GMs can be dragged under. $40 billion to it is like having $40 bucks in your pocket. Compared to all the potential disaster scenarios, it's not that much.

[Amnorix]

Update on the Chevy Volt tonight...

GM is cutting the Fuel tank in half to 7 gallons... still has a range of nearly 400 miles... The majority of people will not use gas on a daily basis, GM didn't war gas sitting in cars for months on end. It will also cut weight, and cost. The average car today has a range of 300-400 miles..... so it's not a big deal. (28 bucks to fill up)!

GM is going to release the car 1 year early... September 2009 it will begin hitting the showrooms....

The "E-Flex" sytem will then be added to a wide varity cars/trucks.... also will be compatible w/ diesel, E-85 and Hydrogen....

The great thing about high gas prices is that it makes America innovate... You can hate GM all you want... but the Chevy Volt is going to change the way America drives forever.

I have one simple question:

WILL IT BE PROFITABLE?

If not, then it's nothing. It can't help GM one damn bit except in the long term. And right now their problems are mostly short term problems.

[Amnorix]

Thanks for the answer.


Merely to give you some scope as to the Delphi situation:


The American auto industry was rocked to its foundation Saturday as Delphi Corp. (http://javascript<b></b>:companybox('DPH')), the world's second-largest parts manufacturer, filed for bankruptcy and laid plans to dramatically downsize its U.S. operations.
It was the seismic event that Detroit's Big Three automakers and their workers, suppliers and investors had anticipated for years, some with dread and others with hope.
At stake is the survival of Delphi, a global giant with 185,000 employees and annual sales of $28 billion, and the wages, benefits and jobs of its 33,000 unionized workers across the United States.


http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/09/A01-341885.htm


WASHINGTON -- Delphi Corp. has racked up nearly $200 million in legal and accounting bills since it filed for bankruptcy in October 2005, and the tab could reach $300 million before it emerges by the end of the year, a Detroit News review of court filings shows.

(and let me tell you, since I get each one of these damn primary pleadings, those lawyers are workign night and day. It's absurdly complicated.

[Programmer]

Merely to give you some scope as to the Delphi situation:



http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/09/A01-341885.htm



(and let me tell you, since I get each one of these damn primary pleadings, those lawyers are workign night and day. It's absurdly complicated.

This doesn't even touch the other spin offs from Delphi. One I'm aware of is Guide Corporation. They have started closing down their U.S. plants and have shifted the work to Mexico. $3.50 an hour to workers vs. $16.00 or $26.00 an hour for the assemblers and machine operators. (wage for U.S. workers depended on hire date.)

[recxjake]

General Motors reports record sales in Europe
Wednesday July 9, 10:38 am ET
By Dee-Ann Durbin, AP Auto Writer
General Motors reports record sales in Europe thanks to growth in Russia, Eastern Europe


DETROIT (AP) -- Despite trouble on the home front, General Motors Corp. is booming in Europe.
GM said Wednesday it recorded record sales of nearly 1.2 million vehicles in Europe in the first six months of this year. That is an increase of 3 percent over last year.

GM's sales grew 58 percent in Eastern Europe and 60 percent in Russia, offsetting a weaker market in Spain and Italy. Even Hummer, a brand GM is considering selling because of slow U.S. sales, saw a 21 percent jump in Russia.

GM says its European market share remained steady at 9.5 percent

[CRONUS]

Merely to give you some scope as to the Delphi situation:



http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/09/A01-341885.htm



(and let me tell you, since I get each one of these damn primary pleadings, those lawyers are workign night and day. It's absurdly complicated.Thanks for the information, really sort of sad. Best of luck to those employees.

[Amnorix]

General Motors reports record sales in Europe
Wednesday July 9, 10:38 am ET
By Dee-Ann Durbin, AP Auto Writer
General Motors reports record sales in Europe thanks to growth in Russia, Eastern Europe


DETROIT (AP) -- Despite trouble on the home front, General Motors Corp. is booming in Europe.
GM said Wednesday it recorded record sales of nearly 1.2 million vehicles in Europe in the first six months of this year. That is an increase of 3 percent over last year.

GM's sales grew 58 percent in Eastern Europe and 60 percent in Russia, offsetting a weaker market in Spain and Italy. Even Hummer, a brand GM is considering selling because of slow U.S. sales, saw a 21 percent jump in Russia.

GM says its European market share remained steady at 9.5 percent

and yet:

<TABLE class=qQuoteTable cellSpacing=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>GM - GENERAL MOTORS CORP Trade (https://webxpress.fidelity.com/ftgw/webxpress/DisplayHtmlPage?HTML_FILENAME=enter_trade_frameset.html&WSATTR=evalstock&SECURITY_ID=GM) </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap>Last Trade: </TD><TD>10.33 [-] (Real-Time Quote) 07/09/2008 04:01pm </TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>Change: </TD><TD>http://personal.fidelity.com/images/ia_downarrow.gif -0.45 http://personal.fidelity.com/images/ia_downarrow.gif -4.17% </TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>Volume: </TD><TD>22,606,108 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Amnorix]

Wow

<TABLE class=rMargin summary="Real-Time Quote for this symbol."><TBODY><TR><TH>52 Week High</TH><TD>43.2000 on 10/12/2007</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

GM has lost $33 per share, or about 75% of its value, in about 9 months. Ouch.

[mmaddog]

jake:

Just thought I would point out that "turnaround" is going well....

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080714/gm_restructuring.html

General Motors to announce more cuts Tuesday

AP sources: GM to announce cuts in white-collar jobs, truck production Tuesday as sales slide


DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp. is expected to cut several thousand salaried jobs and further slash truck production in response to falling U.S. sales and Wall Street's demands for more action to stem its losses, according to two people briefed on the plan.

GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner was scheduled to discuss the changes at a news conference Tuesday morning. GM released no further details, but salaried job cuts and reductions in benefits and executive compensation are likely.

The people briefed on the plan said GM will further reduce its truck production to focus more on small cars. Wagoner will announce that the company will further cut factory capacity at pickup and sport utility vehicle assembly plants, although no specific plant closures are expected to be announced, one of the people briefed on the plan said. GM also intends to make cuts at factories that supply truck plants, such as those that make engines, transmissions and parts, that person said.

GM also will detail plans to raise more cash to fund its restructuring. Along with the expense cuts, the plans likely will include asset sales, but GM is not expected to borrow with assets as collateral, the people said. The people requested anonymity because the plan was not yet public.

The changes come amid pressure from Wall Street for GM to cut some of its eight brands, but it wasn't clear whether GM would make such an announcement Tuesday. The company has said it is exploring the sale of its Hummer brand, known for its hulking SUVs, but GM's vice president of North American sales, Mark LaNeve, told dealers in a letter last week that no other brands are under such a review.

Just six weeks ago, GM said it will close four truck and SUV plants and boost production of the smaller, more fuel-efficient cars that customers are demanding. It also announced production of a new car that could get 45 miles to the gallon and would go on sale in 2010.

But for an impatient Wall Street, those changes weren't enough, and the company's shares have hit a series of 50-year lows since July 2.

GM shares fell 54 cents, or 5.4 percent, to close at $9.38 Monday. They regained 18 cents in after-hours trading after GM's statement that it is taking actions "to align the business to current market conditions."

GM and other auto companies have been hammered by high gas prices, the weak economy and a rapid shift in consumer tastes away from trucks and SUVs. GM's sales were down 16 percent in the first six months of this year, led by a 21 percent decline in truck sales. In May, Toyota Motor Corp. came close to overtaking GM as the top-selling company in the U.S.

GM will announce several thousand salaried job cuts, although the people said a specific number wasn't available. The company is following the lead of its crosstown rival, Ford Motor Co., which announced earlier this summer it would cut 15 percent of its salaried work force costs, or around 2,000 employees, by Aug. 1. Critics have said GM still has too much fat in its middle management, despite shrinking white-collar employment to 32,000 last year from 44,000 in 2000. They also say the engineering, manufacturing and marketing costs are too high.

The salaried cuts will likely be a combination of buyouts and early-retirement offers and involuntary layoffs, one of the people said.

GM executives also have taken pay cuts during past lean times. Wagoner, Vice Chairman Bob Lutz and others voluntarily reduced their salaries in 2006.

Analysts have speculated GM will need to raise more cash to get it to 2010, when it will start seeing the savings from its landmark 2007 contract with the United Auto Workers that cut hourly workers' wages and transferred billions in hourly retiree health care obligations to a union-led trust. GM has $24 billion in cash but could burn through as much as $18 billion this year and next, JPMorgan analyst Himanshu Patel predicted in a recent note to investors.

One way for GM to raise cash would be to delay funding the trust fund that will take over retiree health care in 2010. The UAW has already allowed GM to defer a $4 billion payment from 2008 to 2010.

There has been some speculation on Wall Street that GM could declare bankruptcy, but Wagoner dismissed those rumors last week at a meeting of Dallas business leaders, saying it's "not at all constructive or accurate."

Wagoner said the company believes the trend away from trucks and SUVs in the U.S. market is permanent and that the company is responding, with 18 cars or crossovers in development. But he said GM never could have predicted how quickly the change would come as oil prices doubled in the last year.

"We missed that, but I think us and 99.999 percent of the rest of the people in the world did too," he said.