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View Full Version : Royals Guillen's antics -- Your take on them


Silock
07-06-2008, 07:17 AM
At first, I was willing to chalk it up to a guy disappointed with not winning. Now I just think he's a douchebag. He knew what he was signing up for when he signed with the Royals. Why be pissed about it all the time? **** him.

KC_Connection
07-06-2008, 08:24 AM
He's been a lunatic his entire career, why stop being one in KC of all places?

Deberg_1990
07-06-2008, 09:03 AM
I dont have a problem with it as long as he keeps putting up the numbers.

The Royals have needed a guy like this for years. IM glad he doesnt just accept losing.

Chief Chief
07-06-2008, 09:35 AM
Guillen went off on a tirade with the media about a month ago which stirred up things in a good way with the Royals soon thereafter winning 12 straight. Maybe he thinks that always being pissed off at his teammates/coaches will always result in victories. According to Splittorf's post-game comments last night, none of his teammates wanted to be near him at the batting cage before the game and Guillen didn't speak to any of them there either. I think it's great that he has a passion for the game with a strong desire to win, but someone's got to inject a good dose of reality into his head and clearly explain how his behavior is undermining the success and positive stuff the team's established so far. Guillen will get better results by being more accepting and supportive of his teammates and situation rather than displaying childish antics of throwing things and yelling. I'm hoping he'll show that over the next 7 weeks or the club just may have to offer him up for trade to a contending team. But maybe that's exactly what Guillen wants to happen...

Bowser
07-06-2008, 09:38 AM
I dont have a problem with it as long as he keeps putting up the numbers.

The Royals have needed a guy like this for years. IM glad he doesnt just accept losing.

Guillen went off on a tirade with the media about a month ago which stirred up things in a good way with the Royals soon thereafter winning 12 straight. Maybe he thinks that always being pissed off at his teammates/coaches will always result in victories. According to Splittorf's post-game comments last night, none of his teammates wanted to be near him at the batting cage before the game and Guillen didn't speak to any of them there either. I think it's great that he has a passion for the game with a strong desire to win, but someone's got to inject a good dose of reality into his head and clearly explain how his behavior is undermining the success and positive stuff the team's established so far. Guillen will get better results by being more accepting and supportive of his teammates and situation rather than displaying childish antics of throwing things and yelling. I'm hoping he'll show that over the next 7 weeks or the club just may have to offer him up for trade to a contending team. But maybe that's exactly what Guillen wants to happen...

Agree with both of these.

Deberg_1990
07-06-2008, 09:39 AM
Guillen will get better results by being more accepting and supportive of his teammates and situation rather than displaying childish antics of throwing things and yelling.

Guess we should have just kept Sweeney then.

Bowser
07-06-2008, 09:41 AM
Guess we should have just kept Sweeney then.

I bet Guillen would choose Tequilla over milk and cookies.

Hound333
07-06-2008, 09:45 AM
While I don't 100% agree with how he goes about it, I like that we have a player here now that doesn't appear to be a "I'm just here to pick up a check" type player. I would rather have people who want to win, and bad.

KCUnited
07-06-2008, 10:04 AM
I'm not sure this was a "I'm sick of not winning" rant. The Star reported this morning that he was being loud, knocked over a chair and McClure told him to quiet down and Guillen got in his face and it nearly came to blows. I'm a Guillen fan, but that sounds like destuctive club house behavior. I'll reserve judgement until more of the story comes out, if it comes out at all.

wutamess
07-06-2008, 10:09 AM
I'm all for it. About damn time someone is willing to buck the system that hasn't worked for almost 20 years. Maybe some of the Royals players will get off of their asses and maybe this will light a fire under them.

I'm sick of every year being the "contending" year for the Royals. How many "rebuilding" years can you have out of 20 years? I seem to remember a bunch of CP'ers saying that Brett or McCrae or Wilson or White would've layed into someone's ass by now (and that was 3-4 years ago). Why go after Guillen for doing it? Now we're left with the total pussification of the Royals.

Fugg the PCness. Play some fuggin ball and get down, dirty and passionate while doing it.

Give'm hell Guillen... GIVE'M HELL!

Silock
07-06-2008, 10:22 AM
I'm all for it. About damn time someone is willing to buck the system that hasn't worked for almost 20 years. Maybe some of the Royals players will get off of their asses and maybe this will light a fire under them.

I'm sick of every year being the "contending" year for the Royals. How many "rebuilding" years can you have out of 20 years? I seem to remember a bunch of CP'ers saying that Brett or McCrae or Wilson or White would've layed into someone's ass by now (and that was 3-4 years ago). Why go after Guillen for doing it? Now we're left with the total pussification of the Royals.

Fugg the PCness. Play some fuggin ball and get down, dirty and passionate while doing it.

Give'm hell Guillen... GIVE'M HELL!

IMO, you don't have to be an abrasive loudmouth to be a leader and inspire your teammates to win. There are countless examples of this in all team sports.

Deberg_1990
07-06-2008, 10:28 AM
IMO, you don't have to be an abrasive loudmouth to be a leader and inspire your teammates to win. There are countless examples of this in all team sports.


True, but we are talking about an organization who havent made the playoffs in 23 years.

It would be different if they had even an ounce of success. This team needs some sort of enema.

wutamess
07-06-2008, 11:23 AM
IMO, you don't have to be an abrasive loudmouth to be a leader and inspire your teammates to win. There are countless examples of this in all team sports.


Sweeney? :rolleyes:

eazyb81
07-06-2008, 11:24 AM
I'd love to have 8 more players like him. We need more guys that put up big numbers rather than nice guys like Buck and Gload who suck balls.

I'm actually shocked that any real Royals fan would be disappointed in Guillen. He's probably our best offensive free agent in a decade, but fans are angry because he doesn't give nice flowery quotes about the 2nd worst team in the AL?

Silock
07-06-2008, 12:02 PM
He's probably our best offensive free agent in a decade, but fans are angry because he doesn't give nice flowery quotes about the 2nd worst team in the AL?

I'm pissed about the altercation with the pitching coach, not what he said in the media. What he said NEEDED to be said.

I can't say that nearly coming to blows with the pitching coach is needed at ALL.

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 12:17 PM
Trying to fight McClure isn't a sign of leadership. I'd imagine that this incident might alienate Guillen from some of his teammates.

Demonpenz
07-06-2008, 12:52 PM
He is a headcase. To me he doesn't buck the system, he is just an asshole with mental problems. He claims he is all about the team or winning but watch him when there are runners on base he swings at horrible pitches because he refuses to walk. He wants his numbers. He has an obp ten points or so higher than his average. I wasn't shocked when people were backing him up the first tirade but I said to myself "watch he is going to launch a ball in the stands" Or do something horrible. I don't mind it too much because we took a risk and atleast he is putting up numbers. Make no mistake he is a bomb going off he will take the bat out to the mound and beat people up, fight a fan, or hit an ump in the face.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-06-2008, 12:57 PM
9 different teams in 12 years in the league. I think that says alot right there.

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 01:26 PM
I'd be willing to bet that the Royals are probably going to end up eating a decent portion of Guillen's salary. No one is going to trade for a pain in the ass who is making 12 mil. per.

I think he'll be off the team near the end of year 2 or the beginning of year 3.

Sure-Oz
07-06-2008, 01:30 PM
Good god we are getting shelled again by TB

Mecca
07-06-2008, 01:31 PM
Good god we are getting shelled again by TB

Evan Longoria>Alex Gordon

DaKCMan AP
07-06-2008, 01:34 PM
Good god we are getting shelled again by TB


The Rays are for real.

DaKCMan AP
07-06-2008, 01:34 PM
Evan Longoria>>>>>>>>>Alex Gordon

FYP

Bowser
07-06-2008, 01:35 PM
The Rays are for real.

I hope to God they knock the Yankees out of the playoffs this year. The Royals are doing their part - beating up on the Yankees and getting the piss knocked out of them by the Rays. :thumb:

Mecca
07-06-2008, 01:36 PM
Yea pretty much man, everyone thought Gordon was gonna be it.....looks like Longoria is that guy...

The simple difference in these 2 teams, the Rays made all their high picks count the Royals well they didn't. We got Luke Hochevar, when we could of had Longoria or Lincecum.

DaKCMan AP
07-06-2008, 01:37 PM
I hope to God they knock the Yankees out of the playoffs this year. The Royals are doing their part - beating up on the Yankees and getting the piss knocked out of them by the Rays. :thumb:

The Rays will have a big chance this week in NY. They could get a double-digit lead on NY by the All-Star break.

Sure-Oz
07-06-2008, 01:40 PM
I am getting sick of these "star" rookies on other teams busting it up after a few months when our "star" young players are taking forever to show something...coaching, talent? I expected gordon to do what Longoria is right now...hopefully he will sometime

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 01:42 PM
No way would I trade Hochevar and Butler for Matt Holliday. Remember this debate? The Rockies would look at this proposal in almost the same light if it were Pena and Buck for Holliday.

Mecca
07-06-2008, 01:42 PM
I am getting sick of these "star" rookies on other teams busting it up after a few months when our "star" young players are taking forever to show something...coaching, talent? I expected gordon to do what Longoria is right now...hopefully he will sometime

It doesn't happen soon Gordon is just going to going to go into that big list of highly touted guys that didn't make it out of the Royals system...

We've already watched 2 guys drafted his year or later already bust out and be much better than him with a 3rd being better just not having a huge year yet.

Valiant
07-06-2008, 01:44 PM
Damn it.. We don't want players that want to win.. He should just be happy about not playing and not winning or having teammates that care about winning..

It is ****ing professional sports.. Winning should be number one on their list, and if bitching is a way to get others to do it, then so be it..

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 01:45 PM
Yea pretty much man, everyone thought Gordon was gonna be it.....looks like Longoria is that guy...

The simple difference in these 2 teams, the Rays made all their high picks count the Royals well they didn't. We got Luke Hochevar, when we could of had Longoria or Lincecum.

That's not really true. The Rays have done well of late, but they have been selecting high for a long time. They've had plenty of misses.

That said, a Longoria can go a long way toward making everyone forget.

The Royals organization is still pretty ****ed up, though. Anyone else see the pre-game comparision between Pena and Frank White? Wow. The Royals broadcast is usually a mouthpiece for the organization, and this comparison scared the hell out of me. Surely no one is this stupid.

Mecca
07-06-2008, 01:47 PM
That's not really true. The Rays have done well of late, but they have been selecting high for a long time. They've had plenty of misses.

That said, a Longoria can go a long way toward making everyone forget.

The Royals organization is still pretty ****ed up, though. Anyone else see the pre-game comparision between Pena and Frank White? Wow. The Royals broadcast is usually a mouthpiece for the organization, and this comparison scared the hell out of me. Surely no one is this stupid.

Who are their bad misses? Josh Hamilton? That one had nothing to do with his talent as we see now...

Fruit Ninja
07-06-2008, 01:47 PM
IMO, you don't have to be an abrasive loudmouth to be a leader and inspire your teammates to win. There are countless examples of this in all team sports.

Nope, but there are some teams in sports that do have the loudmouth and win. Doing it the other way sure in the heck wasnt working for the Royals. Maybe its time for something different.

Sure-Oz
07-06-2008, 01:51 PM
Who are their bad misses? Josh Hamilton? That one had nothing to do with his talent as we see now...

I'd say Delmon Young is pulling a gordon, hes pretty avg for Minn this year, but he still had 93 rbis last year, way more than gordon. Gordon probably will get 80 rbis and 20 hrs this year, but i expect a higher avg and plate disciplne. He still doesn't take the ball the other way and strikes out alot.

Mecca
07-06-2008, 01:52 PM
I'd say Delmon Young is pulling a gordon, hes pretty avg for Minn this year, but he still had 93 rbis last year, way more than gordon. Gordon probably will get 80 rbis and 20 hrs this year, but i expect a higher avg and plate disciplne. He still doesn't take the ball the other way and strikes out alot.

Considering they flipped him into Matt Garza we'll judge that pick as Garza now.

DaKCMan AP
07-06-2008, 01:56 PM
Navarro and Kazmir just announced as All-Stars. Longoria could be voted in by fans.

Mecca
07-06-2008, 01:59 PM
All I know about the Rays is this.....Kazmir, Garza, Shields.......they keep those guys with David Price and Jeff Nieman coming they could have an absolutely sick rotation.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-06-2008, 02:00 PM
All I know about the Rays is this.....Kazmir, Garza, Shields.......they keep those guys with David Price and Jeff Nieman coming they could have an absolutely sick rotation.

Damn...that would be one hell of a rotation.

Sure-Oz
07-06-2008, 02:02 PM
I'm really glad we drafted hochaver over Lincecum and Longoria....

Mecca
07-06-2008, 02:03 PM
That doesn't even count Reid Brignac the #1 prospect in their organization who's a SS and the middle infielder they just drafted #1....that team could literally bet set to be good for a long time if they can keep it together.

Mecca
07-06-2008, 02:03 PM
I'm really glad we drafted hochaver over Lincecum and Longoria....

Tim Lincecum only leads the league in K's.....I just remember everyone saying he'd hurt his arm and all that, yea great decision there Royals.

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 02:04 PM
Who are their bad misses? Josh Hamilton? That one had nothing to do with his talent as we see now...

Here are the Rays' first round selections. You can't give them a pass on Hamilton because he didn't produce for them, so he's a major disappointment. Since we don't know about Price, yet, they've had two really good players in 9 years. Well, I guess that's better than the Royals, and if Longoria becomes a star, that makes up for a lot.

'99: Josh Hamilton
'00: Rocco Baldelli
'01: Dewon Brazelton
'02: Upton
'03: Delmon Young
'04: Jeff Niemann
'05: Wade Townsend
'06: Longoria
'07: David Price

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-06-2008, 02:04 PM
That doesn't even count Reid Brignac the #1 prospect in their organization who's a SS and the middle infielder they just drafted #1....that team could literally bet set to be good for a long time if they can keep it together.

Well I guess it all depends how much money they are willing to spend to get all those young guys locked up long term. Will they trade guys away like Florida or lock em up?

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 02:06 PM
Well I guess it all depends how much money they are willing to spend to get all those young guys locked up long term. Will they trade guys away like Florida or lock em up?

They locked Longoria up long term after he played about 5 minutes this season...

Mecca
07-06-2008, 02:07 PM
Here are the Rays' first round selections. You can't give them a pass on Hamilton because he didn't produce for them, so he's a major disappointment. Since we don't know about Price, yet, they've had two really good players in 9 years. Well, I guess that's better than the Royals, and if Longoria becomes a star, that makes up for a lot.

'99: Josh Hamilton
'00: Rocco Baldelli
'01: Dewon Brazelton
'02: Upton
'03: Delmon Young
'04: Jeff Niemann
'05: Wade Townsend
'06: Longoria
'07: David Price

02 and up they're fine.....Young was spun in a good trade for them, we know nothing of Nieman or Townsend at this time.

The thing that makes them is pulling a guy like Carl Crawford later..they've generally drafted pretty well when you look at what they have and what they have coming.

Sure-Oz
07-06-2008, 02:09 PM
Tim Lincecum only leads the league in K's.....I just remember everyone saying he'd hurt his arm and all that, yea great decision there Royals.

I really don't even know wtf lukes stats were previous to the minors...

I know he took a year off and played in some ghetto league, i was a bit miffed by the pick when it happend. I just hope he pans out, i was wanting a dominating strike out starter

Mecca
07-06-2008, 02:11 PM
I really don't even know wtf lukes stats were previous to the minors...

I know he took a year off and played in some ghetto league, i was a bit miffed by the pick when it happend. I just hope he pans out, i was wanting a dominating strike out starter

This is one problem I do have with Moore, the Braves draft history is not a good one....they believe more in the old school out dated philosophies that don't really work. And in taking athletes which baseball is a sport where being a great athlete may not translate at all..

The Braves organization once made a comment that they could tell if someone was good by looking at them just standing there.....

They just don't look at new age scouting, Jeff Francouer and his problems are a good example of this.

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 02:17 PM
02 and up they're fine.....Young was spun in a good trade for them, we know nothing of Nieman or Townsend at this time.

The thing that makes them is pulling a guy like Carl Crawford later..they've generally drafted pretty well when you look at what they have and what they have coming.

Ehh...the first-round selections, save Longoria and Upton, are pretty average. I have no idea what the Rays' other selections look like, however, and I've heard that their system is stocked. So it seems like they've been doing a MUCH better job than KC in the later rounds, which have usually been wastelands for the Royals.

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 02:19 PM
Am I the only one about to vomit from hearing LaFever pimp Pena Jr's "skill"?

Mecca
07-06-2008, 02:20 PM
Am I the only one about to vomit from hearing LaFever pimp Pena Jr's "skill"?

I don't know why they do that, they were comparing him to Frank White before the game......Pena is awful, he doesn't belong on an MLB roster.

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 02:26 PM
I don't know why they do that, they were comparing him to Frank White before the game......Pena is awful, he doesn't belong on an MLB roster.

I mentioned the same thing earlier in the thread. Now the comparison is Ozzie Smith? Truly unbelievable. These kinds of moments really give me pause about the ability of the baseball ops. folks to turn this thing around. If a knowledgable fan can look at Pena's swing and tell that it has 0 chance of being successful, and can look at his play in the field and see that he doesn't always make the routine play, what are the Royals seeing?

Pena must have naked photos of Moore.

Mecca
07-06-2008, 02:29 PM
I mentioned the same thing earlier in the thread. Now the comparison is Ozzie Smith? Truly unbelievable. These kinds of moments really give me pause about the ability of the baseball ops. folks to turn this thing around. If a knowledgable fan can look at Pena's swing and tell that it has 0 chance of being successful, and can look at his play in the field and see that he doesn't always make the routine play, what are the Royals seeing?

Pena must have naked photos of Moore.

I think someone should also inform them the days of the great defensive player that can't hit are gone, now middle infielders can hit, hell every position does. Any player that can't hit is a liability in today's game.

Sure-Oz
07-06-2008, 02:29 PM
Pena will be lucky if he can stay a backup player in the majors, he'll never learn to hit. He just plain sucks

eazyb81
07-06-2008, 03:16 PM
This is one problem I do have with Moore, the Braves draft history is not a good one....they believe more in the old school out dated philosophies that don't really work. And in taking athletes which baseball is a sport where being a great athlete may not translate at all..

The Braves organization once made a comment that they could tell if someone was good by looking at them just standing there.....

They just don't look at new age scouting, Jeff Francouer and his problems are a good example of this.

Hmm, maybe they haven't taken up the "new age scouting" because they won like 14 division championships in a row? If it ain't broke, why fix it?

And I have no idea where you pulled that last comment from. It sounds like an exaggeration from how they focus so much on a player's makeup, which is sometimes mocked by the Billy Beane-wannabes because that's something you can't measure.

KCUnited
07-06-2008, 04:22 PM
If Guillen is going to attack anyone it should be Mike Barnett, or Rusty Kuntz just for looking dumb, Robert Redford haired muthafocker.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-06-2008, 04:24 PM
Please tell me they did not compare tony pena jr. to ozzie smith....tell me it's not true. What is with the ultra homer announce crews this year geez.

keg in kc
07-06-2008, 04:26 PM
It wouldn't bother me if it was constructive in any way. It's not.

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 04:28 PM
Please tell me they did not compare tony pena jr. to ozzie smith....tell me it's not true. What is with the ultra homer announce crews this year geez.

Oh, yes they did. Part of the plan to tell the fans that Pena can be a productive player because he doesn't need to be a run producer. His glove, of course, is every bit as good as the Wizard's. The Royals' front office says so. Fans, of course, know nothing.

We expect to see you at the K for Pena Jr. bobble-head night.

For the record, I'm through blaming Pena for his poor play. He's a below-average player, so it's unfair to expect more from him. The organization that not only continues to put him in positions to be unsuccessful but also tries to BS the fans in the process is another story completely...

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-06-2008, 04:31 PM
Oh, yes they did. Part of the plan to tell the fans that Pena can be a productive player because he doesn't need to be a run producer. His glove, of course, is every bit as good as the Wizard's. The Royals' front office says so. Fans, of course, know nothing.

We expect to see you at the K for Pena Jr. bobble-head night.

For the record, I'm through blaming Pena for his poor play. He's a below-average player, so it's unfair to expect more from him. The organization that not only continues to put him in positions to be unsuccessful but also tries to BS the fans in the process is another story completely...

ROFL ROFL ROFL Oh my!!! Damn do they think anyone would really believe that crap???

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 04:35 PM
ROFL ROFL ROFL Oh my!!! Damn do they think anyone would really believe that crap???

It's frightening.

In my opinion, it serves as a microcosm for how terrible the entire organization has been for the past decade. Things are better, but stuff like this happens and one realizes the Royals have a long way to go.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-06-2008, 04:39 PM
It's frightening.

In my opinion, it serves as a microcosm for how terrible the entire organization has been for the past decade. Things are better, but stuff like this happens and one realizes the Royals have a long way to go.

Wow...they are actually having a tony pena jr. bobble head night? :spock:
Nothing worse then an organization trying to make crappy players sound like all stars.

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 04:42 PM
Wow...they are actually having a tony pena jr. bobble head night? :spock:
Nothing worse then an organization trying to make crappy players sound like all stars.

Yeah. It's in September for Hispanic Heritage Day.

I haven't checked the Royals site in awhile, so perhaps they've made a change, but I don't know how they could go ahead with this promotion if Pena is still hitting well below .200 and is riding the bench.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-06-2008, 04:45 PM
Yeah. It's in September for Hispanic Heritage Day.

I haven't checked the Royals site in awhile, so perhaps they've made a change, but I don't know how they could go ahead with this promotion if Pena is still hitting well below .200 and is riding the bench.

Well if things are going bad for the team in September I guess the fans can throw those POS things onto the field in protest of such a travesty. If they go through with it.

KCUnited
07-06-2008, 04:48 PM
That Pena bobblehead will be a cult collectors item, probably be a sellout.

Valiant
07-06-2008, 07:42 PM
I'm really glad we drafted hochaver over Lincecum and Longoria....

Sometimes it easier to shine when you are surrounded by all good to really good ballplayers..


Kind of hard imo to shine when you come in and are already one of the better players on the team.. How are our players going to get better when they have no one to look up to on the team?? Hopefully Guillen can rub some more desire off on his teammates..

KcMizzou
07-06-2008, 08:00 PM
It really bugged me when he stood like a statue and let Gathright run a mile and a half into left, to field a ball that should have been his.

If you're gonna run your mouth, you'd damned well better bust your ass while you're at it.

L.A. Chieffan
07-06-2008, 08:01 PM
I got one word for you.

Be careful.

tk13
07-06-2008, 08:46 PM
I've actually made the Pena to Ozzie Smith comparisons before. I don't think he's freaking Ozzie Smith, he's not. But part of that is people shouldn't make comparisons to great players. But Pena has ridiculous range out there... absolutely ridiculous, which is why he's not totally worthless. He gets to balls that a lot of shortstops could not get to, which does save hits, runs, etc... it's not everything but it's something positive. People just shut their brains off because it sounds outlandish, but if you were making an honest evaluation, you would watch Tony Pena and say wow, he has range comparable to Ozzie Smith, just on that point alone. I didn't say it out loud, but that's what I thought the first time I saw the guy play in person. "Wow, that guy has range." He still makes some dumb errors to offset that, but that's typical of a young player on the left side of the infield. If Aviles can hit like he has so far, then it's probably moot... but Pena's become such a whipping post that people don't even acknowledge how ridiculous he could be defensively with some seasoning. And I say that as someone who thinks shortstop is the one position on the field where you can give up a little offense for defense. But if you actually watch the guy play, he can stand in the normal SS position, and cover everything from the 2nd base side of the bag to deep in the hole in short left.

If Aviles plays well, then you give up that defense to gain the offense. But this is a bad offensive team and you just can't have someone who hits like that out there.

Sure-Oz
07-06-2008, 08:51 PM
You can't have a great defensive SS bat .150....the guy needs to be an average hitter at best, .250 that would get everyone off his ass. He is an auto out right now and has zero plate discipline, he couldn't draw a walk atleast.

tk13
07-06-2008, 08:56 PM
I'm not ready to ship Guillen out either, but it concerns me a little. The winning rant stuff is okay but this last incident wasn't that, for sure. Bob McClure is definitely not the reason this team has struggled.

tk13
07-06-2008, 09:01 PM
You can't have a great defensive SS bat .150....the guy needs to be an average hitter at best, .250 that would get everyone off his ass. He is an auto out right now and has zero plate discipline, he couldn't draw a walk atleast.
No, his numbers now just won't cut it. And maybe he'll never turn it around. But he is just a 2nd year player.

Sure-Oz
07-06-2008, 09:09 PM
No, his numbers now just won't cut it. And maybe he'll never turn it around. But he is just a 2nd year player.

I wouldn't mind him learning how to hit, he wasn't bad last year. I just think the league knows what to do, but ill give him this, he has as much power as ross gload.:thumb:

Coach
07-06-2008, 09:10 PM
I've actually made the Pena to Ozzie Smith comparisons before. I don't think he's freaking Ozzie Smith, he's not. But part of that is people shouldn't make comparisons to great players. But Pena has ridiculous range out there... absolutely ridiculous, which is why he's not totally worthless. He gets to balls that a lot of shortstops could not get to, which does save hits, runs, etc... it's not everything but it's something positive. People just shut their brains off because it sounds outlandish, but if you were making an honest evaluation, you would watch Tony Pena and say wow, he has range comparable to Ozzie Smith, just on that point alone. I didn't say it out loud, but that's what I thought the first time I saw the guy play in person. "Wow, that guy has range." He still makes some dumb errors to offset that, but that's typical of a young player on the left side of the infield. If Aviles can hit like he has so far, then it's probably moot... but Pena's become such a whipping post that people don't even acknowledge how ridiculous he could be defensively with some seasoning. And I say that as someone who thinks shortstop is the one position on the field where you can give up a little offense for defense. But if you actually watch the guy play, he can stand in the normal SS position, and cover everything from the 2nd base side of the bag to deep in the hole in short left.

If Aviles plays well, then you give up that defense to gain the offense. But this is a bad offensive team and you just can't have someone who hits like that out there.


Pena isn't even nowhere in Ozzie's class. The best solution for Pena? Cut him. It's just that simple.

Why the Royals won't do it, is baffling to me.

Coach
07-06-2008, 09:12 PM
No, his numbers now just won't cut it. And maybe he'll never turn it around. But he is just a 2nd year player.

Yeah, a 2nd year player posting .159/.181/.210

That's awesome. :rolleyes:

Sure-Oz
07-06-2008, 09:13 PM
Yeah, a 2nd year player posting .159/.181/.210

That's awesome. :rolleyes:

I've never seen a worse hitter....joey gathright is really bad and he is batting .240's

KcMizzou
07-06-2008, 09:16 PM
Yeah, a 2nd year player posting .159/.181/.210

That's awesome. :rolleyes:He acknowledged that Pena's offensive numbers are pathetic. What more do you want?

I think all tk's saying is that he has the potential to be an amazing defensive SS. If his bat never gets better, it's a waste.

What's to argue with?

Sure-Oz
07-06-2008, 09:19 PM
He acknowledged that Pena's offensive numbers are pathetic. What more do you want?

I think all tk's saying is that he has the potential to be an amazing defensive SS. If his bat never gets better, it's a waste.

What's to argue with?


I wish we could send him to AAA

tk13
07-06-2008, 09:21 PM
His range is that good. You can sit here and argue with me all day, but you're wrong. Sorry, but you're wrong. His range is tremendous at short. That doesn't mean we should start him everyday. His offensive numbers aren't cutting it. But sadly, I think he's probably the third biggest offensive problem on this team. You can't have a 1st baseman with 1 HR, and a DH with what? 2 HR's? That's about like if Pena was hitting .060, or worse.... I'm not defending Pena, but at least he brings more positive to the table than Gload or Butler at this point just because he can save runs with his glove. And I mean that.

I'm not defending Pena, I'm just saying, he gets beat into the ground terribly every night, and he deserves criticism... but our 1B/DH combo right now has 3 homers, THREE. To me that is the single most atrocious thing about this team, far more than Pena. We've got Aviles anyway, we need to worry about finding some offense at the actual power positions, then we can beat the crap out of Pena's soul. That's just my opinion.

Coach
07-06-2008, 09:21 PM
I wish we could send him to AAA

He's not even worthy of being anybody's minor league system. He just needs to be DFA'ed right on the spot.

Coach
07-06-2008, 09:25 PM
He acknowledged that Pena's offensive numbers are pathetic. What more do you want?

I think all tk's saying is that he has the potential to be an amazing defensive SS. If his bat never gets better, it's a waste.

What's to argue with?

He can't be a amazibg defensive SS if he already committed errors that he normally shouldn't be committing. Well, I'm just simply pointing out that his bat will NEVER get better, at least not here in KC.

So with that analogy, he's already a waste. He's OPS'ing .392 and he has a 5/38 BB/K ratio. Just no plate discipline at all. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch.

I don't HATE the guy, I'm just simply stating the fact that he does not belong in the MLB level, let alone, in the AAA level.

I just never understood what's everybody's is fascinated about this guy.

Short Leash Hootie
07-06-2008, 09:28 PM
Tk13 is one guy I'd never argue with when it comes to the Royals...or even the Chiefs. He's always the voice of reason.

Coach
07-06-2008, 09:30 PM
His range is that good. You can sit here and argue with me all day, but you're wrong. Sorry, but you're wrong. His range is tremendous at short. That doesn't mean we should start him everyday. His offensive numbers aren't cutting it. But sadly, I think he's probably the third biggest offensive problem on this team. You can't have a 1st baseman with 1 HR, and a DH with what? 2 HR's? That's about like if Pena was hitting .060, or worse.... I'm not defending Pena, but at least he brings more positive to the table than Gload or Butler at this point just because he can save runs with his glove. And I mean that.

I'm not defending Pena, I'm just saying, he gets beat into the ground terribly every night, and he deserves criticism... but our 1B/DH combo right now has 3 homers, THREE. To me that is the single most atrocious thing about this team, far more than Pena. We've got Aviles anyway, we need to worry about finding some offense at the actual power positions, then we can beat the crap out of Pena's soul. That's just my opinion.

The problem with that 1B/DH combo is solely on Dayton Moore, as well as Pena. Dayton Moore was responsible for bringing in Pena, as well as Gload IIRC.

As for Pena, well, I disagree. Here's the numbers for the Royals when Pena was starting. 3.7 runs a game. When Aviles was playing, the number jumped to 5.3. It was on an article on the KC Star.

wutamess
07-06-2008, 10:43 PM
I've actually made the Pena to Ozzie Smith comparisons before. I don't think he's freaking Ozzie Smith, he's not. But part of that is people shouldn't make comparisons to great players. But Pena has ridiculous range out there... absolutely ridiculous, which is why he's not totally worthless. He gets to balls that a lot of shortstops could not get to, which does save hits, runs, etc... it's not everything but it's something positive. People just shut their brains off because it sounds outlandish, but if you were making an honest evaluation, you would watch Tony Pena and say wow, he has range comparable to Ozzie Smith, just on that point alone. I didn't say it out loud, but that's what I thought the first time I saw the guy play in person. "Wow, that guy has range." He still makes some dumb errors to offset that, but that's typical of a young player on the left side of the infield. If Aviles can hit like he has so far, then it's probably moot... but Pena's become such a whipping post that people don't even acknowledge how ridiculous he could be defensively with some seasoning. And I say that as someone who thinks shortstop is the one position on the field where you can give up a little offense for defense. But if you actually watch the guy play, he can stand in the normal SS position, and cover everything from the 2nd base side of the bag to deep in the hole in short left.

If Aviles plays well, then you give up that defense to gain the offense. But this is a bad offensive team and you just can't have someone who hits like that out there.

:thumb: I was wondering if someone was actually watching him play or basing their idiotic rants just off assumptions.

Pena made the best play I've ever seen live. I've seen his range. The guy is amazing at the SS position. Normal plays will do tend to bite him in the ass from time to time but when he pulls a play out of his ass... They're outstanding.

wutamess
07-06-2008, 10:47 PM
Those numbers couldn't have anything to do with Guillen's hot streak could it? :rolleyes:

DeezNutz
07-06-2008, 11:47 PM
I agree with the comments about Pena's range. From time to time the guy can make a play that is simply amazing. No doubt about it. The problem is, and this is where the comparisons to great shortstops are not accurate, is that it's not terribly uncommon for him to fail to make the routine play. Sorry, this is not something one can brush aside as the by-product of second-year player Defensive isn't offense. The latter requires adjustment to stay on top of one's game. The former is primarily instinct and God-given ability.

In many ways, Pena reminds me of Berroa. Angel. could consistently make that diving/sliding play to his right deep in the hole, plant, and throw a strike across the diamond. Amazing. Next play, routine grounder and he kicks it three times.

If Pena were Omar Visquel out there, I think he'd catch far less heat, even with his current offensive prowess. But Pena, despite the occasional amazing play, is a slightly above average ML shortstop. Couple that with his "ability" at the plate, and he has no business being an everyday player. Again, I say this not to damn Pena. To use my least favorite phrase, he is what he is. The fault lies with the organization for not recognizing this fact earlier.

tk13 brings up a great point regarding the 1B/DH situation, however. The SS position is far from this team's only (and perhaps most pressing) problem.

Demonpenz
07-07-2008, 09:06 AM
I won't jump all over butler right now. He hits the ball hard....alot.... I won't jump up and down bashing his 2 homeruns when he is hitting the ball hard somewhere. Pena is just brutal to watch. He is the worst offensive player I have ever seen. You just want to shake him and teach him how you would have a 6 year old stand.

eazyb81
07-07-2008, 09:10 AM
I'm not defending Pena, I'm just saying, he gets beat into the ground terribly every night, and he deserves criticism... but our 1B/DH combo right now has 3 homers, THREE. To me that is the single most atrocious thing about this team, far more than Pena. We've got Aviles anyway, we need to worry about finding some offense at the actual power positions, then we can beat the crap out of Pena's soul. That's just my opinion.

Totally agree with this part. Pena would not be an issue on a good team because the other players would provide the offense. However, when you have guys like Ross Gload, John Buck, Joey Gathright, etc. getting significant playing time, you go from having one weak offensive spot to having half of the lineup as a weakness.

We could support a defensive stud like TPJ if we had a solid offense built around him, but we don't.

Demonpenz
07-07-2008, 10:15 AM
His range is that good. You can sit here and argue with me all day, but you're wrong. Sorry, but you're wrong. His range is tremendous at short. That doesn't mean we should start him everyday. His offensive numbers aren't cutting it. But sadly, I think he's probably the third biggest offensive problem on this team. You can't have a 1st baseman with 1 HR, and a DH with what? 2 HR's? That's about like if Pena was hitting .060, or worse.... I'm not defending Pena, but at least he brings more positive to the table than Gload or Butler at this point just because he can save runs with his glove. And I mean that.

I'm not defending Pena, I'm just saying, he gets beat into the ground terribly every night, and he deserves criticism... but our 1B/DH combo right now has 3 homers, THREE. To me that is the single most atrocious thing about this team, far more than Pena. We've got Aviles anyway, we need to worry about finding some offense at the actual power positions, then we can beat the crap out of Pena's soul. That's just my opinion.

I understand it is unqualified, but Pena's Range factor is the 3rd WORST in the major's. If your statement is true I would think he would atleast be middle of the pact

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=rangeFactor

Only Stephen Drew and Julio Lugo have worst Range Factors

Demonpenz
07-07-2008, 10:18 AM
Sortable Fielding:
NAME GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR
Yunel Escobar, Atl 77 76 681.2 380 115 258 7 51 .982 4.93 .845
Orlando Cabrera, CWS 88 87 758.2 417 132 280 5 55 .988 4.89 .857
Michael Young, Tex 81 81 711.0 388 114 269 5 72 .987 4.85 .824
Jhonny Peralta, Cle 79 78 689.0 364 115 243 6 57 .984 4.68 .831
Jimmy Rollins, Phi 61 61 529.1 269 96 169 4 27 .985 4.51 .845
J.J. Hardy, Mil 75 74 644.2 327 109 213 5 45 .985 4.50 .809
Cesar Izturis, StL 63 57 507.1 259 70 182 7 33 .973 4.47 .838
Edgar Renteria, Det 80 78 688.1 347 116 223 8 57 .977 4.43 .813
Yuniesky Betancourt, Sea 84 83 738.2 368 133 226 9 57 .976 4.38 .837
Hanley Ramirez, Fla 86 86 754.1 374 137 223 14 51 .963 4.30 .816
Miguel Tejada, Hou 88 86 761.0 370 112 251 7 50 .981 4.29 .847
Cristian Guzman, Was 87 87 771.0 375 113 254 8 48 .979 4.28 .840
Jason Bartlett, TB 77 77 691.0 333 117 205 11 41 .967 4.19 .846
Derek Jeter, NYY 82 82 702.0 334 129 197 8 43 .976 4.18 .840
Ryan Theriot, ChC 81 77 696.1 332 126 196 10 46 .970 4.16 .791
Khalil Greene, SD 87 86 785.1 362 111 245 6 51 .983 4.08 .862
Bobby Crosby, Oak 84 84 743.0 345 117 218 10 52 .971 4.06 .811
Jose Reyes, NYM 85 85 761.0 352 107 233 12 44 .966 4.02 .812
Tony Pena Jr., KC 63 52 467.2 205 54 145 6 29 .971 3.84 .849
Stephen Drew, Ari 82 78 691.1 299 100 192 7 35 .977 3.80 .803
Julio Lugo, Bos 77 75 635.1 273 90 167 16 30 .941 3.64 .820

Demonpenz
07-07-2008, 10:45 AM
Pena is also 16th in Fielding percentage.

Deberg_1990
07-07-2008, 11:29 AM
TK, i see your point about Pena, but the problem is this is 2008 not 1979. Every position in baseball (especially the American Leage) you have to be able to hit.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 12:26 PM
Pena is also 16th in Fielding percentage.

But LaFever says Pena is one of the best defensive SS in the league?!?

Mecca
07-07-2008, 02:16 PM
Totally agree with this part. Pena would not be an issue on a good team because the other players would provide the offense. However, when you have guys like Ross Gload, John Buck, Joey Gathright, etc. getting significant playing time, you go from having one weak offensive spot to having half of the lineup as a weakness.

We could support a defensive stud like TPJ if we had a solid offense built around him, but we don't.

I enjoy how sports talk radio thinks the best offensive player on our team is an ass and needs to go......

This is KC we value nice guys over talent and winning.

keg in kc
07-07-2008, 04:32 PM
I enjoy how sports talk radio thinks the best offensive player on our team is an ass and needs to go......

This is KC we value nice guys over talent and winning.It's because he is an ass. Guillen's all about Guillen, and nothing else. End of story.

It takes more than production to be a team leader. And it takes a lot more than profanity-laced hissy-fits. Guy sounds like he needs to be in a shrink's office, not a locker room.

Adept Havelock
07-07-2008, 04:40 PM
But LaFever says Pena is one of the best defensive SS in the league?!?

SAT Question:

LaFeeble is to Royals Broadcasts as Mecca is to ChiefsPlanet. :p

It's because he is an ass. Guillen's all about Guillen, and nothing else. End of story.

It takes more than production to be a team leader. And it takes a lot more than profanity-laced hissy-fits. Guy sounds like he needs to be in a shrink's office, not a locker room.


Bi-la-kaifa.

rtmike
07-07-2008, 06:03 PM
They were talking in the papers up here how Seattle losing Jose was a major blow to the Mariners. The team doesn't have anybody being vocal like he was last year lighting a fire under some of his team mates.

I imagine the Mariners would like to have him back. It couldn't get much worse than already having one of the highest losing payrolls.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 06:05 PM
SAT Question:

LaFeeble is to Royals Broadcasts as Mecca is to ChiefsPlanet. :p

Mecca to icon status. :thumb: