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penguinz
07-07-2008, 03:34 PM
Every time I look at the box he is hitless or at most has 1 hit. When are they going to sit him or even send him down until he can learn how to hit MLB pitching?

CoMoChief
07-07-2008, 03:35 PM
Every time I look at the box he is hitless or at most has 1 hit. When are they going to sit him or even send him down until he can learn how to hit MLB pitching?

No one can hit on the Royals. And he's at least 2nd on the team in HR's.

You can't send everyone down to AAA. Which is what needs to be done. ROFL

Mecca
07-07-2008, 03:36 PM
If they do that at this point then he's a failure and goes on the bust list....it's pretty typical Royals to be honest, 4 guys come out as 3rd baseman, the 1 we have is the one who is not remotely living up to his potential..

Think of this..Gordon, Longoria, Braun, Zimmerman....Gordon had the most hype of any of those guys yet he's the worst one.

Reaper16
07-07-2008, 03:36 PM
How Mike Barnett hasn't been fired yet is beyond me. None of the Royals know how to make adjustments at the plate; that's the fault of the hitting coach. Gordon has all of the talent in the world, but hasn't broken out the way that less-talented 3B players such as Braun or Longoria have. He needs the guidance of an actual hitting coach.

Mecca
07-07-2008, 03:38 PM
When Ryan Braun has the stats he does, including last year, and is an all star, calling him less talented is pretty ridiculous, same for Longoria, those guys have been better in the majors from day 1 compared to Gordon.

Gordon was more highly touted in the draft that is all.

penguinz
07-07-2008, 03:39 PM
Maybe he could do better if someone could convince to take some pitches. Every time I listen to a game on the radio he is swinging on first pitch.

Reaper16
07-07-2008, 03:42 PM
If Gordon isn't more talented, that means that all of the scouts in the world cannot do their job. Their job is to rank talent, and they all thought Gordon was the most talented.

Anyway, Gordon, like Braun/Longoria/et al, put up great minor league numbers. Something's lost in translation. Looking at the lack of patience/approach at the plate/general ineptitude of Royals batters for the last many years, it's apparent that 1.) KC has no idea what a hitting coach is supposed to be doing, and 2.) player development in the organization is an alien concept.

Mecca
07-07-2008, 03:44 PM
I don't have any trust at all in the Royals scouts.....and we've seen guys miss before that were can't miss. It's the Royals luck that it would turn out this way...

SPATCH
07-07-2008, 03:44 PM
Royals - Fueling fan-alcoholism since 1995

bsp4444
07-07-2008, 04:02 PM
Maybe he could do better if someone could convince to take some pitches. Every time I listen to a game on the radio he is swinging on first pitch.

I would agree with this except with two strikes on him. How many called third strikes has this team as a whole watched go by? That's a sta I'd like to see and how the Royals rank. It's got to be significant.

Mecca
07-07-2008, 04:07 PM
It's pretty shitty knowing if we had taken Braun and Lincecum our team would be in such a better spot.

Sure-Oz
07-07-2008, 04:28 PM
Gordon really swings at alot of shit and is late on alot of pitches too. He should be doing better than .250, we need real coaches here....where the hell is his coach from Nebraska, bring him in

Adept Havelock
07-07-2008, 04:38 PM
Maybe we could trade Mecca for a decent batting coach. I'm sure he'd be the "greatest scout EVAH!!".

thurman merman
07-07-2008, 07:15 PM
gordon isn't putting up all-star numbers, but to say he should be benched or sent to AAA is pretty ridiculous, considering that they have people like joey gathright, tony pena jr, and esteban german on their major league squad. gordon is probably the third best hitter in the royals lineup right now (behind guillen and dejesus).

gordon isn't hitting for a high average, but he has shown decent power and played excellent defense.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 07:28 PM
Sometimes it seems like Gordon has the longest, slowest swing in history. The trajectory of his swing reminds me of Griffey Jr.'s (circa mid-late '90s), minus the lightning-quick hands.

DJ's left nut
07-07-2008, 07:40 PM
He takes no approach with him to the plate. He actually has a pretty quick stroke that generates a ton of power. It's a level swing, stays in the hitting zone awhile and tends to strike the ball quite well. He has a damn good swing.

Problem is, he goes up there with no plan. He hacks at a few, hoping that they hit him in the bat. He's a guess hitter with WAY too much talent to be a guess hitter.

Fire the hitting coach. The Royals don't have a single hitter on their team hitting above their ability, only DeJesus is only hitting to it. That's a definite indictment on the hitting coach. He's set Gordon's development back at least a season and will probably be 2 before all is said and done. He's really screwing up that franchise.

alanm
07-07-2008, 07:42 PM
Gordon really swings at alot of shit and is late on alot of pitches too. He should be doing better than .250, we need real coaches here....where the hell is his coach from Nebraska, bring him in
Somehow I don't think MLB and the NCAA would let Head coach Mike Andersen tutor him in KC. Andersen is also the hitting coach at Nebraska and has said on the radio that Gordon's swing looks all screwed up.:hmmm:

alanm
07-07-2008, 07:46 PM
He takes no approach with him to the plate. He actually has a pretty quick stroke that generates a ton of power. It's a level swing, stays in the hitting zone awhile and tends to strike the ball quite well. He has a damn good swing.

Problem is, he goes up there with no plan. He hacks at a few, hoping that they hit him in the bat. He's a guess hitter with WAY too much talent to be a guess hitter.

Fire the hitting coach. The Royals don't have a single hitter on their team hitting above their ability, only DeJesus is only hitting to it. That's a definite indictment on the hitting coach. He's set Gordon's development back at least a season and will probably be 2 before all is said and done. He's really screwing up that franchise.
I can't really put my finger on it. I've seen him countless times at Nebraska but he just looks different at the plate. I also think about 75% of his problem is his mental approach. Ball players can be such head cases.:spock:

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 08:01 PM
He takes no approach with him to the plate. He actually has a pretty quick stroke that generates a ton of power. It's a level swing, stays in the hitting zone awhile and tends to strike the ball quite well. He has a damn good swing.

Problem is, he goes up there with no plan. He hacks at a few, hoping that they hit him in the bat. He's a guess hitter with WAY too much talent to be a guess hitter.

Fire the hitting coach. The Royals don't have a single hitter on their team hitting above their ability, only DeJesus is only hitting to it. That's a definite indictment on the hitting coach. He's set Gordon's development back at least a season and will probably be 2 before all is said and done. He's really screwing up that franchise.

He has a lot of natural power, no doubt about it, but he does not have a quick stroke. Not even close. J.D. Drew has had probably the best June of any ML player, and though I hope Gordon ends up being a MUCH better player than Drew overall, J.D has a quick, compact stroke. Compare the two.

Sure-Oz
07-07-2008, 08:17 PM
Somehow I don't think MLB and the NCAA would let Head coach Mike Andersen tutor him in KC. Andersen is also the hitting coach at Nebraska and has said on the radio that Gordon's swing looks all screwed up.:hmmm:

That's what worries me....hell fire barnett and bring in kevin seitzer as our hitting coach. Gordon is always fouling off pitches and misses "his" pitch way too much

Deberg_1990
07-07-2008, 08:19 PM
Who was our hitting coach when we were developing Beltran, Sweeney, Damon, Dye and Randa in the mid to late 90's?? Man, what an awesume hitting lineup we had in those days. Too bad we had zero pitching.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 08:42 PM
The Royals used to burn through at least one pitching coach per year for awhile. Strangely enough, though, when the team acquired better pitchers, things seemed to change.

Seriously, if Barnett is to blame for Gordon's troubles, does he get credit for DeJesus's career year? How about Guillen, who is also on pace to have a career year (at least in RBIs)?

Given KC's punchless lineup, it seems hard for me to believe that the hitting coach has had that much of an impact. He can't polish a turd.

Reaper16
07-07-2008, 08:56 PM
The Royals used to burn through at least one pitching coach per year for awhile. Strangely enough, though, when the team acquired better pitchers, things seemed to change.

Seriously, if Barnett is to blame for Gordon's troubles, does he get credit for DeJesus's career year? How about Guillen, who is also on pace to have a career year (at least in RBIs)?

Given KC's punchless lineup, it seems hard for me to believe that the hitting coach has had that much of an impact. He can't polish a turd.
Gordon cannot be a turd. Well, its possible, I suppose, but highly unlikely.

Ceej
07-07-2008, 09:19 PM
Sometimes it seems like Gordon has the longest, slowest swing in history. The trajectory of his swing reminds me of Griffey Jr.'s (circa mid-late '90s), minus the lightning-quick hands.

For a minute I thought you were referring to Tony Pena Jr. My God, he definitely has the slowest hands in the MLB.

Reaper16
07-07-2008, 09:23 PM
For a minute I thought you were referring to Tony Pena Jr. My God, he definitely has the slowest hands in the MLB.
I'm never sure is TPJ is swinging a baseball bat or a Funnoodle.

Ceej
07-07-2008, 09:25 PM
Maybe he doesn't see the ball leaving the pitcher's arm BECAUSE HE WEARS THOSE STUPID FUKKIN' RACQUETBALL GLASSES.

thurman merman
07-07-2008, 09:27 PM
Maybe he doesn't see the ball leaving the pitcher's arm BECAUSE HE WEARS THOSE STUPID FUKKIN' RACQUETBALL GLASSES.

ROFL

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 09:30 PM
Gordon cannot be a turd. Well, its possible, I suppose, but highly unlikely.

I was alluding to the lineup collectively. As for Gordon, I think he's going to be a long-time ML player, just not a star, unfortunately.

For a minute I thought you were referring to Tony Pena Jr. My God, he definitely has the slowest hands in the MLB.

Sorry. Pena's swing is hardly worthy of much thought or analysis. Funny you should mention his hands, though. There's no way he has slow hands, since he's a middle infielder. Obviously it takes a lot of quickness to turn the double-play. How ****ed up of a job, then, did his dad do of teaching him to hit a ball when he was little?

Ceej
07-07-2008, 09:34 PM
I was referring to his slow hands when it comes to hitting the ball, not fielding.

Obviously, Tony should have made the All Star game based on his fielding stats alone. LOL.

Deberg_1990
07-07-2008, 09:35 PM
How ****ed up of a job, then, did his dad do of teaching him to hit a ball when he was little?


He was probably too busy out chasing women.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 09:36 PM
I was referring to his slow hands when it comes to hitting the ball, not fielding.

Obviously, Tony should have made the All Star game based on his fielding stats alone. LOL.

Of course, but his hands don't become magically slow just because he's standing in a different location. At least I don't think.

It's his approach that sucks ass.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 09:37 PM
He was probably too busy out chasing women.

Believe it.

Ceej
07-07-2008, 09:38 PM
Of course, but his hands don't become magically slow just because he's standing in a different location. At least I don't think.

It's his approach that sucks ass.

Or the fact that he just is plain awful. Either or.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 09:39 PM
Or the fact that he just is plain awful. Either or.

Winner.

tk13
07-07-2008, 10:26 PM
He hasn't lived up to the hype yet, but it's too early to give up on him, and like every other prospect we probably rushed him a bit too much. I really wonder if it would've helped him, Butler, and Teahen to beat up on AAA pitching for a while. That's what Billy Beane would've done with all these guys.

The funny thing is, a couple years ago, if they had passed on Gordon, everybody in baseball would've had a cow and said "there goes Glass being cheap" because Gordon was the consensus best college player. It wasn't even up for debate. But that's the baseball draft for you.

ChiefsCountry
07-07-2008, 10:29 PM
He will probally end the year at .285 and 20 to 23 homers. Thats not a bad season, I think the expectations of being the next George Brett and the other 3B's in his class have made people think he is some bust. He will be an All-Star third baseman before his career his over, his defense has been pretty good and just more patience at the plate and he will be a constient hitter.

Valiant
07-07-2008, 10:35 PM
It's pretty shitty knowing if we had taken Braun and Lincecum our team would be in such a better spot.

No, they would have sucked here and Gordon would have been a stud on the other teams..

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 10:38 PM
I really wonder if it would've helped him, Butler, and Teahen to beat up on AAA pitching for a while.

I think Teahen is one of this organization's most (recent) notable failings. He was great in the second half of '06, one of the best hitters in the AL, and since '07 forward it seems like he's playing a different position every game. I'd have liked to have seen what would have happened if he would have been left at 3B.

Of course, Gordon would have switched to 1B, where I've heard that some scouts think he could be even better defensively than he is at third.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 10:39 PM
No, they would have sucked here and Gordon would have been a stud on the other teams..

Now that's a Royals fan. True. Blue. ****ed Up Tradition. ROFL

tk13
07-07-2008, 10:45 PM
I think Teahen is one of this organization's most (recent) notable failings. He was great in the second half of '06, one of the best hitters in the AL, and since '07 forward it seems like he's playing a different position every game. I'd have liked to have seen what would have happened if he would have been left at 3B.

Of course, Gordon would have switched to 1B, where I've heard that some scouts think he could be even better defensively than he is at third.
I'm not sure if it would've helped, but I've wondered that too. It wouldn't be the first time we screwed someone up that way. Yeah he probably should've worked through it, but spending a whole spring trying to learn a brand new position might have messed him up mentally. We did the same thing to Affeldt, every time he showed a hint of something we'd shift him around. It happens sometimes.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 10:48 PM
I'm not sure if it would've helped, but I've wondered that too. It wouldn't be the first time we screwed someone up that way. Yeah he probably should've worked through it, but spending a whole spring trying to learn a brand new position might have messed him up mentally. We did the same thing to Affeldt, every time he showed a hint of something we'd shift him around. It happens sometimes.

True enough. But when there are so few glimmers of hope with this franchise, these lost moments seem like a little heavier kick to the balls.

BWillie
07-07-2008, 11:06 PM
Why do people care about batting average? It doesn't make any sense. The only time your batting average ever matters is when there is a guy on 1st and 3rd and there is two outs. Thats it. I could care less about batting average. Most important thing is on base percentage and on-base slugging percentage. There are some guys that bat .212 but they get on base, walk alot, and drive in runs. Even with that said, Gordon is mediocre in that category. But we shouldn't dwell on batting average. It's almost a useless statistic

Mecca
07-07-2008, 11:07 PM
He will probally end the year at .285 and 20 to 23 homers. Thats not a bad season, I think the expectations of being the next George Brett and the other 3B's in his class have made people think he is some bust. He will be an All-Star third baseman before his career his over, his defense has been pretty good and just more patience at the plate and he will be a constient hitter.

I have a hard time buying he's going to be a top 2 3rd baseman in the AL...

BWillie
07-07-2008, 11:09 PM
He will probally end the year at .285 and 20 to 23 homers. Thats not a bad season, I think the expectations of being the next George Brett and the other 3B's in his class have made people think he is some bust. He will be an All-Star third baseman before his career his over, his defense has been pretty good and just more patience at the plate and he will be a constient hitter.

Sooo what do you want to bet that Gordon won't bat over .275 for the season? I'm all ears.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 11:11 PM
There are some guys that bat .212 but they get on base, walk alot, and drive in runs.

Whom are you referring to? Howard? Dunn is the only player that comes to mind, and he's typically had a much more respectable BA.

Overall, though, you've just described an unusual situation.

Fish
07-07-2008, 11:15 PM
Stat of the day... the Royals are only 1.5 games ahead of where they were last year at this time.

So said KK today on the way home.

BWillie
07-07-2008, 11:17 PM
Whom are you referring to? Howard? Dunn is the only player that comes to mind, and he's typically had a much more respectable BA.

Overall, though, you've just described an unusual situation.

Well duh. There is a direct correlation to batting average and on base percentage, but what I'm saying is batting average really doesn't matter. Obviously if you have a higher batting average you will have higher on base percentage. Some people look at Giambi and Dunn's numbers the last few years and automatically go...shitty. Bad batting average, but they get on base and drive in runs. That's all I care about.

Mecca
07-07-2008, 11:20 PM
OBP is an extremely important stat, generally the teams that lead it are always the best teams.

DeezNutz
07-07-2008, 11:22 PM
Well duh.

:spock: But you said...in your previous post...oh forget it.

I agree that BA can be slightly misleading, but only slightly. 98% of ML players with an average below .240 tend to suck ass.

OPS seems to be a legit. tool, however.

Mizzou_8541
07-07-2008, 11:46 PM
OBP is an extremely important stat, generally the teams that lead it are always the best teams.

...and get on base the most

Valiant
07-07-2008, 11:55 PM
No, they would have sucked here and Gordon would have been a stud on the other teams..

Heh.. I just think that the reason these other players are outplaying Gordon and others on our team is not because they are better skilled.. It is a combination of our staff sucking at development and not having any other major league talent around them..

It is easier to do well when your team can pick you up or play at a higher level, it raises that players ability..

Luckily Ithink the Royals are just a few FA acquisitions away from competing.. So hopefully next year we see improvement..

And get us a ****ing hitting coach..

SithCeNtZ
07-08-2008, 12:30 AM
He hasn't lived up to the hype yet, but it's too early to give up on him, and like every other prospect we probably rushed him a bit too much. I really wonder if it would've helped him, Butler, and Teahen to beat up on AAA pitching for a while. That's what Billy Beane would've done with all these guys.

The funny thing is, a couple years ago, if they had passed on Gordon, everybody in baseball would've had a cow and said "there goes Glass being cheap" because Gordon was the consensus best college player. It wasn't even up for debate. But that's the baseball draft for you.

There seems to be some sort of myth floating around that sending guys to AAA instead of AA for more seasoning is the right thing to do and the Royals are somehow unique in doing not so. Gordon was not in any way rushed to the big leagues. In fact, guys like Zimmerman from the same draft class were up before him and they seemed to do ok. There are very few stud prospects who go to AAA. David Wright went for about 5 days to AAA just to say hi to his hometown Norfolk Tide and then left. Braun was there for just 34 games. Mauer was there for 5 games. Teahan was not rushed either. He was already in AAA when the Royals acquired him, and they kept him there for another 66 games. To put that into perspective, the mighty Billy Beane only kept stud prospect Carlos Gonzalez in AAA for 41 games. There might be a problem with how the Royals are developing hitting in the organization, but rushing them isn't one of them.

ChiefsCountry
07-08-2008, 12:50 AM
There seems to be some sort of myth floating around that sending guys to AAA instead of AA for more seasoning is the right thing to do and the Royals are somehow unique in doing not so. Gordon was not in any way rushed to the big leagues. In fact, guys like Zimmerman from the same draft class were up before him and they seemed to do ok. There are very few stud prospects who go to AAA. David Wright went for about 5 days to AAA just to say hi to his hometown Norfolk Tide and then left. Braun was there for just 34 games. Mauer was there for 5 games. Teahan was not rushed either. He was already in AAA when the Royals acquired him, and they kept him there for another 66 games. To put that into perspective, the mighty Billy Beane only kept stud prospect Carlos Gonzalez in AAA for 41 games. There might be a problem with how the Royals are developing hitting in the organization, but rushing them isn't one of them.

I think TK was getting at was letting all those guys play together down in Omaha and let them get more success from their AA championship team and develop there instead of learning on the fly in KC.

Sure-Oz
07-08-2008, 12:53 AM
I think TK was getting at was letting all those guys play together down in Omaha and let them get more success from their AA championship team and develop there instead of learning on the fly in KC.

Problem is our whole team is quite sad...and they are forced to come up and learn on the fly. Gordon should finish with solid #'s, probably 20+ hrs and 80+ rbis. Not bad for a 2nd year after his initial. Just need to get more consistency going, and get that avg around .275-.280 consistently. I want to see Butler hit way more, cause that is all he can contribute to us.

SithCeNtZ
07-08-2008, 01:07 AM
I think TK was getting at was letting all those guys play together down in Omaha and let them get more success from their AA championship team and develop there instead of learning on the fly in KC.

I would buy his claim if he had any sort of real evidence that doing so was actually helpful. What team would he point to in search of proving this? The Ray's? Nope. Upton played at levels far more advanced in age than Butler or Gordon did and was called up in similar crummy conditions. Same with Carl Crawford. Both turned out ok. How about the Brewers? Nope. Braun only played 34 games in AAA and it wasn't with Prince Fielder, who was called up at the same age as Butler. Why were their players able to "get it" and "learn on the fly" and become good solid players on rebuilt teams? What does "learn on the fly" even mean anyway? Learn how to win? That isn't going to get solved with 40 games in AAA.

penguinz
07-08-2008, 07:04 AM
He will probally end the year at .285 and 20 to 23 homers. There is no way he adds that many points to his batting average this season.

petegz28
07-08-2008, 08:23 AM
Gordon just needs to have a come to jesus meeting with Moore...or actually vice-versa...."Son you are in the big leagues making big league money. Time to get it together and be a real #3 hitter."

ChiTown
07-08-2008, 08:51 AM
Gordon just needs to have a come to jesus meeting with Moore...or actually vice-versa...."Son you are in the big leagues making big league money. Time to get it together and be a real #3 hitter."

You can't "talk" greatness out of a player. Alex has the tools to be a very productive #3 - he just needs to do it. I think next season is a big year for Alex. During year 3 in the bigs, he'll need to show that he's capable of hitting in the 3 hole, or this draft pick will have been a huge failure. We don't need another marginal 6-7 in the batting order.......we have a team full of them already.

Ryan Braun has been 2x the offensive player Alex Gordon has been thus far out of the same draft (although Gordon is a superior 3b). So we can stuff all the "we rushed him" talk. He's a college kid who was supposed to be MLB ready with his bat. Thus far he's shown he's very inconsistent. Like I said, next year is huge for Alex, and the Royals.

thurman merman
07-08-2008, 09:31 AM
There is no way he adds that many points to his batting average this season.

how do you know?

remember when jose guillen was hitting .150?

there's still a lot of season left.

DeezNutz
07-08-2008, 09:47 AM
how do you know?

remember when jose guillen was hitting .150?

there's still a lot of season left.

Guillen is a misleading example because it is much easier to add points early in the season. Gordon is starting to have too many ABs to make too big of a change. I guess ANYTHING is possible, but Gordon would have to scorching hot in the second half for this to happen.

thurman merman
07-08-2008, 09:48 AM
Guillen is a misleading example because it is much easier to add points early in the season. Gordon is starting to have too many ABs to make too big of a change. I guess ANYTHING is possible, but Gordon would have to scorching hot in the second half for this to happen.

it's not that hard to add 32 points to your batting average in 3 months.

DeezNutz
07-08-2008, 09:54 AM
it's not that hard to add 32 points to your batting average in 3 months.

That's a lot. Currently Gordon has 332 ABs and 84 hits. Let's say he gets 300 more ABs this seaon. In this case, he'd need 96 more hits to raise his average above .285.

In other words, from this point forward he'd have to hit at least .320. Has there been anything up to this point that suggests this is possible?

Demonpenz
07-08-2008, 09:55 AM
There has only been two players ever to add that many points to their BA after the halfway point. 1 Being Jacob Jacobsby from the 1894 Mudslingers and Joe "the feet" davis in 1906

DeezNutz
07-08-2008, 09:58 AM
There has only been two players ever to add that many points to their BA after the halfway point. 1 Being Jacob Jacobsby from the 1894 Mudslingers and Joe "the feet" davis in 1906

ROFL.

You're ****ing up my statistical analysis for Thurman.

Demonpenz
07-08-2008, 10:04 AM
Jacobsby was also aided by the fact they played on a field that at night doubled as a circus tent. So it wasn't uncommon for balls to be hit into the freakshow tent in right as it was only 280 (275 to the bearded lady booth)

ChiTown
07-08-2008, 10:49 AM
Jacobsby was also aided by the fact they played on a field that at night doubled as a circus tent. So it wasn't uncommon for balls to be hit into the freakshow tent in right as it was only 280 (275 to the bearded lady booth)

Classic

:LOL:

penguinz
07-09-2008, 07:19 AM
1 for 5 last night. :(

thurman merman
07-09-2008, 02:11 PM
That's a lot. Currently Gordon has 332 ABs and 84 hits. Let's say he gets 300 more ABs this seaon. In this case, he'd need 96 more hits to raise his average above .285.

In other words, from this point forward he'd have to hit at least .320. Has there been anything up to this point that suggests this is possible?

i'm not saying it's going to happen, but it is definitely possible. i don't see why it's impossible for any given player (unless it's tony pena jr. or something) to hit .320 for half a season.

DeezNutz
07-09-2008, 02:21 PM
i'm not saying it's going to happen, but it is definitely possible. i don't see why it's impossible for any given player (unless it's tony pena jr. or something) to hit .320 for half a season.

Sure, it's possible. Like I said though, there's not much evidence that this will be the case, unfortunately.

I'll say this. If Gordon hits at a .320+ clip the rest of the way, this would be the best reason I can think of to have hope for the '09 season.

KCUnited
07-09-2008, 02:25 PM
i'm not saying it's going to happen, but it is definitely possible. i don't see why it's impossible for any given player (unless it's tony pena jr. or something) to hit .320 for half a season.

With a week left going into the Allstar break there are 8 guys batting .320 or above.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-09-2008, 02:36 PM
Not every guy steps in and is Albert Pujols or even Ryan Braun from day 1. Scouts miss all the time on MLB players, it's one of the most finicky of all sports to project talent. Hell Wily Mo Pena has the highest signing bonus of any latin player ever. Todd Van Poppel anyone?

I think one of the reasons why people get so bent out of shape about Gordon is precisely because the Royals are so bad that anyone who comes along who projects as a good player is automatically hailed as a potential savior and gets saddled with expectations far beyond what they can realistically live up to.

The Royals aren't just bad because they have cheap ownership. They have terrible coaches all throughout their organization. They can't develop talent, and they can't scout it either, and too many years they drafted for signability over talent. Anyone who would take a sinkerballer like Hochevar over numerous power pitchers like Kershaw, Lincecum, Andrew Miller and Max Scherzer is a goddamned fool, which is even more ironic given that they finally drafted for talent and f*cked that up too.

penguinz
07-09-2008, 02:38 PM
With a week left going into the Allstar break there are 8 guys batting .320 or above.But none of them suck at hitting MLB pitching the way AG does.

His swing never changes. Does not matter where the ball is or what kind of pitch it never changes.

thurman merman
07-09-2008, 02:38 PM
With a week left going into the Allstar break there are 8 guys batting .320 or above.

exactly. so it's not impossible. that's what i said.

penguinz
07-09-2008, 02:39 PM
exactly. so it's not impossible. that's what i said.For Alex it is. ;)

KCUnited
07-09-2008, 02:40 PM
exactly. so it's not impossible. that's what i said.

lol, you got it, buddy.

Sure-Oz
07-09-2008, 02:40 PM
Alex doesn't go wth pitches at all, i just hope adjusts and can be a 30 hr guy for us with a .270 avg

DeezNutz
07-09-2008, 02:45 PM
The Royals aren't just bad because they have cheap ownership. They have terrible coaches all throughout their organization. They can't develop talent, and they can't scout it either, and too many years they drafted for signability over talent. Anyone who would take a sinkerballer like Hochevar over numerous power pitchers like Kershaw, Lincecum, Andrew Miller and Max Scherzer is a goddamned fool.

I don't know what percentage I'd put it at, but ownership has to get a lot of the blame for the current state of the franchise. I mean A LOT.

You're right that Gordon doesn't deserve to be the whipping boy. If the team had consistently selected the BPA in the draft in the first round, and then signed him, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The team would have hit on some of those players, even if the GM was throwing darts. Of course, this takes us back to the issue of ownership providing the means to build a successful product.

I have no idea how well fans can criticize the coaching at various levels of the organization. Scouting looks like it's been a problem, but much of this is tied to the fact that the Royals had far fewer scouts than most teams and were hardly even involved in Latin America. Why? Ownership wouldn't spend the money.

Talent trumps coaching, IMO, not that the former can't help. But all the coaching in the world won't have a huge impact on players who don't have ML talent.

SCTrojan
07-09-2008, 02:49 PM
That's a lot. Currently Gordon has 332 ABs and 84 hits. Let's say he gets 300 more ABs this seaon. In this case, he'd need 96 more hits to raise his average above .285.

In other words, from this point forward he'd have to hit at least .320. Has there been anything up to this point that suggests this is possible?

I agree that it would be difficult for Gordon to get to .280 in this scenario - especially if you are talking about 300 official ABs. But the scenario doesn't appear to factor in walks or sacrifices, which aren't counted as official ABs.

Say he gets those 300 actual at bats, and he gets 30 walks (not out of the question since he has 39 right now) and a few sac flies. That would cut down his official AB total to about 260 or so. In that scenario, he'd need 84 hits, which is what he had for the first half. He'd need to get it in a few less games, but still doable.

Not saying he will, but the second scenario is a bit more realistic. He'd still have to get really hot for a prolonged period of time.

DeezNutz
07-09-2008, 02:59 PM
I agree that it would be difficult for Gordon to get to .280 in this scenario - especially if you are talking about 300 official ABs. But the scenario doesn't appear to factor in walks or sacrifices, which aren't counted as official ABs.

Say he gets those 300 actual at bats, and he gets 30 walks (not out of the question since he has 39 right now) and a few sac flies. That would cut down his official AB total to about 260 or so. In that scenario, he'd need 84 hits, which is what he had for the first half. He'd need to get it in a few less games, but still doable.

Not saying he will, but the second scenario is a bit more realistic. He'd still have to get really hot for a prolonged period of time.

The numbers I've cited are pretty accurate and take walks, HBP, etc. into account. For example, from '01-'05 Pujols averaged approximately 590 official ABs per year. Clearly teams aren't going to pitch around Gordon nearly as much, so his ABs are going to be higher.

632 official ABS seems like a realistic figure. Who knows, it might be a little high, but not by much. Bottom line, Gordon is going to have to hit well above .300 (likely around .320) the rest of the way to get his average to .285.

SCTrojan
07-09-2008, 03:04 PM
The numbers I've cited are pretty accurate and take walks, HBP, etc. into account. For example, from '01-'05 Pujols averaged approximately 590 official ABs per year. Clearly teams aren't going to pitch around Gordon nearly as much, so his ABs are going to be higher.

632 seems like a realistic figure. Who knows, it might be a little high, but not by much. Bottom line, Gordon is going to have to hit well above .300 (around .320) the rest of the way to get his average to .285.

Got it. I figured you had, but had a notion to get into some statistical manipulation. I'd be shocked if gets to that average. He strikes out a bit too much and has a tendency to get into prolonged cold stretches.

DeezNutz
07-09-2008, 03:06 PM
Got it. I figured you had, but had a notion to get into some statistical manipulation. I'd be shocked if gets to that average. He strikes out a bit too much and has a tendency to get into prolonged cold stretches.

I'd be shocked, too. As a fan, though, it would be one of the more promising developments in recent team history. This team is in dire need of a star. Pretty tough to build without a cornerstone, and it's tough to make a closer into one, though it's nice to have.

penguinz
07-10-2008, 10:47 AM
1 of 4 with 2 strike outs last night.

penguinz
07-10-2008, 10:09 PM
1-4 again. He needs to be sat down.

thurman merman
07-10-2008, 10:12 PM
1-4 again. He needs to be sat down.

also made a couple of great plays on defense.

who should be playing instead of him? tony pena? esteban german?

SPATCH
07-10-2008, 10:15 PM
guys.... GUYS.

we won...

Mizzou_8541
07-10-2008, 10:16 PM
1-4 again. He needs to be sat down.

Yeah, because that will get his bat going. I mean, come on. Look at Billy Butler.

penguinz
07-10-2008, 10:18 PM
Yeah, because that will get his bat going. I mean, come on. Look at Billy Butler.Neither one should be with the MLB team. Especially Butler. They both need to go back to Omaha until the Royals can get a hitting coach that is worth a shit.

Mizzou_8541
07-10-2008, 10:20 PM
Neither one should be with the MLB team. Especially Butler. They both need to go back to Omaha until the Royals can get a hitting coach that is worth a shit.

I agree with the last half of that. Barnett=Warm Garbage

Adept Havelock
07-10-2008, 10:29 PM
I agree with the last half of that. Barnett=Warm Garbage

That's a little harsh on Warm Garbage, don't you think?

Mizzou_8541
07-10-2008, 10:38 PM
That's a little harsh on Warm Garbage, don't you think?

Hot Garbage?

DeezNutz
07-10-2008, 10:41 PM
Does Barnett get credit for DeJesus's strong year, especially after his sub-par 2007, or Guillen's career year? Have to ask...

Look, I don't know if Barnett is any good or not. He might be terrible, but more times than not, coaches can't make a huge difference at the ML level. Don't get me wrong, coaches matter, but you're asking too much for a coach to make an average player great.

For the record, Gordon should not be going anywhere. However, he should be batting lower in the order with a left-handed starter. Hillman made a good move tonight.

SithCeNtZ
07-10-2008, 10:56 PM
Does Barnett get credit for ... or Guillen's career year? Have to ask...



I'm sorry but you have made reference to this in multiple posts now and it is no more true today then when you first posted it. He is not having a career year in anything other than RBI's, which has nothing to do with pure hitting ability as his pedestrian .275 avg with RISP would indicate. He is below average in nearly every other category. His OBP hasn't been this low in a full season since 2002. Same with OPS. Same with avg. He is not having a good year, nor a career year.

Mizzou_8541
07-10-2008, 10:58 PM
Does Barnett get credit for DeJesus's strong year, especially after his sub-par 2007, or Guillen's career year? Have to ask...

Look, I don't know if Barnett is any good or not. He might be terrible, but more times than not, coaches can't make a huge difference at the ML level. Don't get me wrong, coaches matter, but you're asking too much for a coach to make an average player great.

For the record, Gordon should not be going anywhere. However, he should be batting lower in the order with a left-handed starter. Hillman made a good move tonight.

I think he just moved him down in the order tonight because Buehrle is a lefty and we are all well aware of how Alex does against lefties. But I agree he should be moved down a bit lower in the lineup.

SPATCH
07-10-2008, 11:05 PM
1-4 again. He needs to be sat down.

let's not forget that buerhle was ****ing dealing... this isn't the game where you decide "that's the last straw."

DeezNutz
07-10-2008, 11:05 PM
I'm sorry but you have made reference to this in multiple posts now and it is no more true today then when you first posted it. He is not having a career year in anything other than RBI's, which has nothing to do with pure hitting ability as his pedestrian .275 avg with RISP would indicate. He is below average in nearly every other category. His OBP hasn't been this low in a full season since 2002. Same with OPS. Same with avg. He is not having a good year, nor a career year.

To claim that he's not having a good year is a far greater inaccuracy than saying he's having a career year.

You mentioned RBIs already, and this is a biggie. Pure hitting ability? Whatever. It sure as hell speaks to production and that matters quite a bit more. Beyond this, he's easily going to best his previous mark in doubles. Currently he has 28 and his previous best is 38. He's having a good year for HRs, too. He has 13 and his previous best is 31. His SLG percentage is also high; he's had only 3 better years where this is concerned.

So is it an overstatement to say that this is his "career" year? Yeah, I guess so. My original post was a bit of hyperbole brought about by the Barnett bashing, and my initial point is valid. If Barnett is responsible for all the bad, he should get credit for some of the good. Anyway, Guillen is having a damn good year thus far, and statistically it's one of his best.

penguinz
07-11-2008, 07:06 AM
let's not forget that buerhle was ****ing dealing... this isn't the game where you decide "that's the last straw."It is not just this game. The guy can not hit. His swing is in the exact same slot no matter what the pitch is thrown to him. He also needs to lean to take pitches.

DeezNutz
07-13-2008, 10:23 PM
Check out the following for a long but worthwhile read on Alex Gordon. Rany's analysis offers hope for some of us who have begun to be impatient or worried:

http://www.ranyontheroyals.com/

Deberg_1990
07-13-2008, 10:40 PM
Check out the following for a long but worthwhile read on Alex Gordon. Rany's analysis offers hope for some of us who have begun to be impatient or worried:

http://www.ranyontheroyals.com/

Long but interesting read.

Sounds like Gordon might be more the "next Teahan" than the "next Beltran"

GoHuge
07-13-2008, 10:43 PM
Alex is just another case of rushing a guy too quickly to the Bigs. George Brett said in spring training last year that they found a hole in his swing. His biggest problem is plate discipline. He's raked at every level, but I can't help thinking skipping AAA all together stunted his growth. Look at what he did last year in the second half. I'm not worried about it. Sadly the Royals moved him along the Royals way, but he's got the talent to overcome it. Same with Billy. They don't just lose that kind of talent. I've watched Alex since he was in high school and he'll be just fine.

Ari Chi3fs
07-13-2008, 10:45 PM
I bet Billy Butler eats a billion twinkies in the next 3 days.

DeezNutz
07-13-2008, 10:48 PM
Long but interesting read.

Sounds like Gordon might be more the "next Teahan" than the "next Beltran"

:shrug:

That's not what I took from this. Rany seems to be arguing closer to the opposite. Here's the results of his analysis, pulled from late in the blog:

"And keep in mind that you could easily lump Larry Walker in with this group, which would increase Gordon's odds to 8 out of 12 [of being a very good or All-Star caliber player], or 3 out of 12 for a Hall of Fame career."

I'd take these odds at this point.

Edit: I'm not trying to bust your balls or be argumentative, Deberg, but I wanted to voice this opinion in case (perhaps in the likely event) that some posters won't take the time to read the entire blog. Becoming the next Teahen doesn't sound very hopeful at all, even though he's the type of player that will be in the league for the next 10 years or so.

Sure-Oz
07-13-2008, 11:41 PM
Butler looks = as bad right now minus a smigeon of power, i hope these guys figure it out

SithCeNtZ
07-14-2008, 12:12 AM
Check out the following for a long but worthwhile read on Alex Gordon. Rany's analysis offers hope for some of us who have begun to be impatient or worried:

http://www.ranyontheroyals.com/

Boy, I don't know if I can support that article. One one hand it is encouraging to know that we still have hope that he won't be a bust. On the other, I think Rany just got extremely lucky picking out a very select group of numbers, because prospects just don't hit at an 80% clip. By saying you have to make your debut at 23, you eliminate nearly every single prospect from the HS ranks.

Here are a couple of examples of near misses that would bring the rate down quickly:

Juan Encarnacion - Once ranked as high as 15 on Baseball America's top prospect list. A pretty medicore, at best, player for his career. Why wasn't he on Rany's list? He had a .287 OBP his first year instead of .300. Every other number matches Rany's requirements. His second year numbers of .289/.330/.433 are awfully close to Gordon's.

Travis Lee - Had a tremendous year at 23, hitting 22 HR's, then slumped the next year power wise and never recovered.

Adrian Beltre - Made his debut long before 22, but still posted Gordon like numbers for his whole career until 2004 where he had that one magical season for the Dodgers. Considered largely a disappointment.

It's examples like those in the last 10 years even that make me sort of wonder how much weight this article can have.

Deberg_1990
07-14-2008, 08:11 AM
:shrug:

That's not what I took from this. Rany seems to be arguing closer to the opposite. Here's the results of his analysis, pulled from late in the blog:

"And keep in mind that you could easily lump Larry Walker in with this group, which would increase Gordon's odds to 8 out of 12 [of being a very good or All-Star caliber player], or 3 out of 12 for a Hall of Fame career."

I'd take these odds at this point.

Edit: I'm not trying to bust your balls or be argumentative, Deberg, but I wanted to voice this opinion in case (perhaps in the likely event) that some posters won't take the time to read the entire blog. Becoming the next Teahen doesn't sound very hopeful at all, even though he's the type of player that will be in the league for the next 10 years or so.

Gordon wont be a bust. Im confident he will develop into a solid player. I do have serious doubts that he will ever be a superstar.

The Royals desperately need a superstar hitter.

eazyb81
07-14-2008, 09:29 AM
My problem with Gordon is that there really isn't one area where he is meeting or exceeding expectations.

His average is down, he's not hitting for power, his walks have gone up but he's striking out much more often, and his speed has basically evaporated. This was a guy that was thought to be a 20+ SB threat on top of hitting for power, and he has all of 3 SB at the break.

Who knows how his career will turn out, but at this point he has certainly been a massive disappointment. Most were hoping for a David Wright-type player, and Gordon is looking more like a Jeff King-type. And to think we could have had Ryan Braun....

Sure-Oz
07-14-2008, 10:24 AM
I think they under utilize gordon on the base paths, he could probably steal 20.

Deberg_1990
07-14-2008, 10:32 AM
And to think we could have had Ryan Braun....

Its a funny thing the draft. The Royals didnt really do anything wrong. Gordon was a consensus top guy. Nearly everyone had him pegged as a potential superstar.

Unfortunately, we all know the draft is a crapshoot in any sport.

kregger
07-14-2008, 10:36 AM
I think they under utilize gordon on the base paths, he could probably steal 20.

He has to get on the base path before we can start the 20+ talk. He was not ever a singles hitter and can't walk to save his ass. He needs to concentrate on power numbers and making contact when others are on base.

Sure-Oz
07-14-2008, 11:38 AM
Gordon needs to get the avg up first imo as well...

he is so far on pace for 22 hrs and 80+ rbis, a little bit of an improvement. I would feel better if his avg was much higher and less k's

SithCeNtZ
07-14-2008, 12:33 PM
He has to get on the base path before we can start the 20+ talk. He was not ever a singles hitter and can't walk to save his ass. He needs to concentrate on power numbers and making contact when others are on base.

He has plenty of walks. It's the only thing saving his season right now. He has 1 less than Mourneau and 3 less than Holliday. The K's are a problem though, as is his lack of power.