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Sure-Oz
07-08-2008, 05:40 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/07/dave-kaplan-of.html

Cubs Acquire Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin
By Tim Dierkes [July 8 at 5:25pm CST]


5:36pm: The Cubs' press release is out. The Cubs get Harden and Chad Gaudin for Gallagher, Murton, Patterson, and catching prospect Josh Donaldson. Jim Hendry did his best to counter the Brewers' acquisition of CC Sabathia. The A's get three MLB-ready players plus a solid offense-oriented catching prospect

Harden, 26, has been dominant in 13 starts for the A's this year. The injury-prone Harden is a tantalizing player; he's only topped 130 innings once but has a career ERA of 3.42. The latest concern: decreased velocity/dead arm in his last start. Harden has a $7MM club option for '09, which is highly likely to be exercised.

chiefs1111
07-08-2008, 05:57 PM
I wonder what move the Cards will make,Nl Central is getting crazy with pitching talent

BigRedChief
07-08-2008, 05:58 PM
Frazod is going postal when he hears this.

Reaper16
07-08-2008, 06:00 PM
Cards will finish 3rd.

Sure-Oz
07-08-2008, 06:03 PM
Gaudin is also a solid addition as well to their already solid pen. I think even Gaudin could start if needed for them.

Nice counter to Milwaukee's move

The Bad Guy
07-08-2008, 06:06 PM
This is a huge deal. The Cubs didn't give up anything of value.

Harden in the NL is murder.

Reaper16
07-08-2008, 06:12 PM
One concern: Harden is already injury prone. The bad mojo over the years of Prior and Wood may end up killing Rich in some freak accident.

BigRedChief
07-08-2008, 06:16 PM
This is a huge deal. The Cubs didn't give up anything of value.

Harden in the NL is murder.
Moneyball doesn't get owned. It does the ownage. See who got the better deal in a couple of years.

Remember how the A's got Harden? Mulder for Harden? Worked out great for us the first year. Not so well the rest of the way.

little jacob
07-08-2008, 06:23 PM
This is a very good deal for Chicago.

little jacob
07-08-2008, 06:25 PM
Moneyball doesn't get owned. It does the ownage. See who got the better deal in a couple of years.

Remember how the A's got Harden? Mulder for Harden? Worked out great for us the first year. Not so well the rest of the way.

what about dan haren. that deal worked out "ok" for Arizona.

SithCeNtZ
07-08-2008, 06:37 PM
Moneyball doesn't get owned. It does the ownage. See who got the better deal in a couple of years.

Remember how the A's got Harden? Mulder for Harden? Worked out great for us the first year. Not so well the rest of the way.

They got Haren for Mulder, not Harden. The other thing about that deal was there was still a huge prospect given up by St. Louis in Daric Barton, who was a top 100 prospect at the time(#28). The A's sort of lucked into the deal as Barton hasn't been all that good but Haren obviously worked out great for them. Beane has choked on some deals as well. Look at the Tim Hudson deal, where he got outfielder Charles Thomas, southpaw Dan Meyer and right-hander Juan Cruz. All household names, as you well know. This was a brutal deal by Beane.

Coach
07-08-2008, 06:39 PM
Figured it would be Burnett or Harden....

BigRedChief
07-08-2008, 06:40 PM
chit I thought this was for Haren. Nevermind.
http://geoffgottlieb.org/wp-content/_church_lady.jpg

SBK
07-08-2008, 06:40 PM
I got to see Rich Harden kill the Braves in person, he was lights out. Great pickup by the Cubbies!

I need to make some money so I can fly up to Chicago for the World Series......(maybe I should wake up)LMAO

Jewish Rabbi
07-08-2008, 06:44 PM
Even if Harden does get hurt right away, it's not like the Cubs gave anything up for him...I hope they choke, but great trade imo.

DeezNutz
07-08-2008, 06:47 PM
Yeah, well the Royals are supposedly interested in Matt Holliday. That's right, Matt freakin Holliday.

**** you all and your teams that win.

Frazod
07-08-2008, 06:50 PM
Frazod is going postal when he hears this.

I'd rather not piss away our future buying overhyped stars. We'll have Wainwright and Carpenter back soon for free.

Fairplay
07-08-2008, 06:52 PM
Go Cubs!

I really hope this is their year.

Frazod
07-08-2008, 06:54 PM
Go Cubs!

I really hope this is their year.

Keep dreaming. All those expensive parts will make for one terrific crash when it call comes apart.

As usual.

little jacob
07-08-2008, 06:58 PM
i have no positive or negative for the cubs or cards really. i kind of hope milwaukee does it. they have done things the right way from a little guy perspective, loaded up on high quality prospects, good drafting. made a big aggressive move to try to take the next step.

good year for the have-nots with the brewers and the rays maybe poised to make a run. florida is in second place. arizona is in the lower end of the league in payroll and are in first, although their division is awful.

SPATCH
07-08-2008, 06:59 PM
And with that...

so goes the cardinals hopes for the playoffs... these are AL studs that will rape and pillage their way through NL lineups

Fairplay
07-08-2008, 07:01 PM
Keep dreaming.




I like to call it fantasizing actually when it comes to the cubs.

Frazod
07-08-2008, 07:07 PM
And with that...

so goes the cardinals hopes for the playoffs... these are AL studs that will rape and pillage their way through NL lineups

You sound just like every other f#cking retard I have to endure all day long, who is convinced that teams that haven't won shit in decades are suddenly world beaters because of the addition of one guy. :whackit:

Coach
07-08-2008, 07:07 PM
Keep in mind that Gaudin is also a very solid ball player. Would make a good long-man or a spot-starter for the Cubs.

SPATCH
07-08-2008, 07:12 PM
You sound just like every other f#cking retard I have to endure all day long, who is convinced that teams that haven't won shit in decades are suddenly world beaters because of the addition of one guy. :whackit:

the cubs have been the class of the NL the entire year.. you're an idiot if you think you can rely on the curse of the billy goat, or whatever, to bail your asses out again this year..

this isn't the NL Central of the last few years where you could just suck the least and make the playoffs

Coach
07-08-2008, 07:12 PM
Keep dreaming. All those expensive parts will make for one terrific crash when it call comes apart.

As usual.

I don't know. This Cubs team is pretty much loaded with the players that they have.

Lineup:
LF Soriano
RF Fukudome
1B Lee
3B Ramirez
C Soto
2B DeRosa
CF Edmonds/Johnson
SS Theriot

Bench:
Ward
Johnson/Edmonds
Fontenot
Blanco
Cedeno

Rotation:
Zambrano
Harden
Lilly
Dempster
Marquis

Bullpen:
Gaudin
Lieber
Wuertz
Marmol
Wood
Howry
Eyre

This team has alot of solid players in almost all positions, with a solid 1-3 rotation starters, and a very strong bullpen, especially at Marmol and Wood.

eazyb81
07-08-2008, 07:13 PM
Wow, Cubs gave up a lot for a pitcher that can't stay healthy.

Coach
07-08-2008, 07:15 PM
Also, Harden will be under the Cubs control after the end of this season, since the Cubs have a 2009 $7 million club option.

SPATCH
07-08-2008, 07:18 PM
Wow, Cubs gave up a lot for a pitcher that can't stay healthy.

are you serious??

and don't underestimate the importance of gaudin in the deal.... the cubs are huge winners in this one imo

Ultra Peanut
07-08-2008, 07:19 PM
That was fast.

I hate to lose Gallagher, I wish Murton nothing but the best and I'm glad he's in the league he's better-suited for, E-Pat never had a chance in Chicago, and Donaldson could be a really good player at some point. But Harden and Gaudin are awesome additions, and well worth the trade pieces.

God knows Beane isn't going to get snookered, but it looks like a win-win deal at this point.

One concern: Harden is already injury prone. The bad mojo over the years of Prior and Wood may end up killing Rich in some freak accident.http://i38.tinypic.com/x5w9y0.jpg

Sure-Oz
07-08-2008, 07:19 PM
Cubs didn't give up shit except for a possible solid starter

Coach
07-08-2008, 07:19 PM
Wow, Cubs gave up a lot for a pitcher that can't stay healthy.

Not necessarly. The best player they gave up was Gallagher, and he projects to be a solid 3/4 starter in MLB level.

Murton, 26, is hitting .250/.286/.300 with no home runs and a .198 EqA in 19 games. At Iowa this season, he batted .298/.397/.382 with one homer and a translated .243 EqA in 54 games.

Patterson, 25, was hitting .320/.358/.517 with six home runs and a translated .269 EqA in 52 games at Iowa. In a stint with the Cubs this season, he batted .237/.318/.342 with one homer and a .238 EqA in 13 games.

And for Donaldson, he's a A player, and more than likely he wouldn't see the MLB level as a Cub, since the Cubs have Soto, and also Welington Castillo turning into a good player at AA, his loss isn't a very significant one.

Coach
07-08-2008, 07:21 PM
That was fast.

I hate to lose Gallagher, I wish Murton nothing but the best in Beanetown, E-Pat never had a chance in Chicago due to Corey's miserable legacy, and Donaldson could be a really good player at some point. But Harden and Gaudin are awesome additions.

http://i38.tinypic.com/x5w9y0.jpg

Donaldson is a good offensive player, but his defense, reportedly, did need some work. But as my previous post mentioned, Welington Castillo is turning into a good player at Tennessee (AA), so his loss isn't a very significant one.

eazyb81
07-08-2008, 07:22 PM
are you serious??

and don't underestimate the importance of gaudin in the deal.... the cubs are huge winners in this one imo

Harden has thrown over 128 innings once in his last five seasons. Seems like a ton to give up for a guy who is so fragile.

Coach
07-08-2008, 07:24 PM
Harden has thrown over 128 innings once in his last five seasons. Seems like a ton to give up for a guy who is so fragile.

Even if he's on the field as little as Nomar Garciaparra was, it's still a good move. It gives the Cubs a legit chance just to have him in their control. Harden could start 20 more times and throw 20 shutouts and it doesn't guarantee anything. This is a good deal. The Cubs gave up some talent, but nobody that had a clear cut spot in the near future.

Ultra Peanut
07-08-2008, 07:25 PM
Donaldson is a good offensive player, but his defense, reportedly, did need some work. But as my previous post mentioned, Welington Castillo is turning into a good player at Tennessee (AA), so his loss isn't a very significant one.The other thing about Donaldson is, y'know... Geo's only 25.

Your point about the "no clear-cut future role" for the guys who were traded is pretty much spot-on. Their upside seems to be:

Gallager -> Solid rotation guy, but not a star
Murton -> Nice bat off the bench (due to defensive ineptitude)
E-Pat -> Utility guy, maybe a half-decent starter at some point
Donaldson -> Offensive catcher (but again, he's only ~3 years younger than Soto, who's OPSing .902 with 15 home runs this year)

Gaudin's a really solid bullpen arm who's locked up for a long time, and Harden's a guy who can be an ace if he's healthy and has a team option for next year. Nice trade for all involved.

Coach
07-08-2008, 07:35 PM
The other thing about Donaldson is, y'know... Geo's only 25.

Your point about the "no clear-cut future role" for the guys who were traded is pretty much spot-on. Their upside seems to be:

Gallager -> Solid rotation guy
Murton -> Nice bat off the bench (due to defensive ineptitude)
E-Pat -> Utility guy
Donaldson -> Offensive catcher (but again, he's only ~3 years younger than Soto, who's OPSing .902 with 15 home runs this year)

Gaudin's a really solid bullpen arm who's locked up for a long time, and Harden's a guy who can be an ace if he's healthy and has a team option for next year. Nice trade for all involved.


You're correct about that Geo is 25, and not to mention that he works very well with our pitching staff. So I think the Cubs have finally found their COTF (Catcher of the Future).

Gaudin is a very interesting player. Two years ago, he was a starter for the A's and posted a 1.530 WHIP. Not great, but not exactly horrible. He'd make a nice 5th starter for the Cubs, if they somehow can get rid of Marquis.

Here's the wildcard though. Rich Hill.

Sure-Oz
07-08-2008, 07:37 PM
You're correct about that Geo is 25, and not to mention that he works very well with our pitching staff. So I think the Cubs have finally found their COTF (Catcher of the Future).

Gaudin is a very interesting player. Two years ago, he was a starter for the A's and posted a 1.530 WHIP. Not great, but not exactly horrible. He'd make a nice 5th starter for the Cubs, if they somehow can get rid of Marquis.

Here's the wildcard though. Rich Hill.


Hill doesn't sound like he'll find his control anytime soon, atleast this buys them time with him

SPATCH
07-08-2008, 07:38 PM
Harden has thrown over 128 innings once in his last five seasons. Seems like a ton to give up for a guy who is so fragile.

ok this isn't a gasol-for-kwami brown-type steal.. but the cubs didn't give up hardly anything. where is this "ton" of talent that you are seeing?

Ultra Peanut
07-08-2008, 07:41 PM
if they somehow can get rid of Marquis.Elijah Dukes has an idea!

http://i36.tinypic.com/333e3hy.jpg

Hill doesn't sound like he'll find his control anytime soon, atleast this buys them time with himYeah. I've written off Hill for this year, though the latest news about him from AZ seems at least a little promising.

If we're talking wildcards, I think Angel Guzman is higher on that list than Hill.

Frazod
07-08-2008, 07:42 PM
the cubs have been the class of the NL the entire year.. you're an idiot if you think you can rely on the curse of the billy goat, or whatever, to bail your asses out again this year..

this isn't the NL Central of the last few years where you could just suck the least and make the playoffs

Oh yeah. Real tough stretch there where you clowns didn't play a team with a winning record for over a month. Let's start printing World Series t-shirts because you can beat the crap out of Pittsburgh. LMAO What's your record against good teams? What's your road record? How overdue is that hothead prick of a manager for a major meltdown? Are you stocked up on diapers for Soriano and Zambrano? Do you really think Wood will stay healthy? Do you really think Jim WHIFF Edmonds won't choke down the stretch?

I've lived up here for 20 years now. It's always the same.

Coach
07-08-2008, 07:42 PM
Hill doesn't sound like he'll find his control anytime soon, atleast this buys them time with him

Actually, latest reports coming out of Mesa AZ is that Hill went 4 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 6 K/1 BB on Sunday in Mesa.

Hill also featured his new delivery, and it looks like he may actually have found the cure for his version of Steve Blass Disease.

He no longer tilts his shoulder and head back to the extent he had been doing (a la Fernando Valenzuela), which allows him to keep his eyes on the catcher's target.

Coach
07-08-2008, 07:43 PM
Elijah Dukes has an idea!

http://i36.tinypic.com/333e3hy.jpg

Yeah. I've written off Hill for this year, though the latest news about him from AZ seems at least a little promising.

If we're talking wildcards, I think Angel Guzman is higher on that list than Hill.

Guzman is intruging as well, but his major injury prone really scares me. He makes Harden look like Maddux (health-wise) As for Hill, I wouldn't totally write him off this year yet, since he's still on the 40 man roster and there is the September call-ups. If he dominates in September (Like Soto did the year before) the Cubs would be foolish to not include him in the playoff roster.

Ultra Peanut
07-08-2008, 07:46 PM
ok this isn't a gasol-for-kwami brown-type steal.. but the cubs didn't give up hardly anything. where is this "ton" of talent that you are seeing?It wasn't Pau for Kwame. It was Pau for Javaris Crittendon (2007 1st rounder), Marc Gasol (07-08 Spanish league MVP), a 2008 1st rounder (Darrell Arthur), a 2010 1st rounder, and expirings.

As a Grizzlies fan, I'm not too upset about that deal, since it's positioned the team to make a big addition next summer (Boozer pls kthx) after accumulating a really talented backcourt and some nice frontcourt prospects in Arthur and Gasol (plus Warrick, who could be a valuable trade piece).

SPATCH
07-08-2008, 07:49 PM
Oh yeah. Real tough stretch there where you clowns didn't play a team with a winning record for over a month. Let's start printing World Series t-shirts because you can beat the crap out of Pittsburgh. LMAO What's your record against good teams? What's your road record? How overdue is that hothead prick of a manager for a major meltdown? Are you stocked up on diapers for Soriano and Zambrano? Do you really think Wood will stay healthy? Do you really think Jim WHIFF Edmonds won't choke down the stretch?

I've lived up here for 20 years now. It's always the same.

have no idea why you are using "you/your" when you're addressing me. i'm not a cubs fan if that is what you think.

i'm just saying that the cardinals have been banking on the cubs/brewers/astros to eat shit when it matters for too long now. if they don't make a move, they won't make the playoffs.

SPATCH
07-08-2008, 07:53 PM
It wasn't Pau for Kwame. It was Pau for Javaris Crittendon (2007 1st rounder), Marc Gasol (07-08 Spanish league MVP), a 2008 1st rounder (Darrell Arthur), a 2010 1st rounder, and expirings.

As a Grizzlies fan, I'm not too upset about that deal, since it's positioned the team to make a big addition next summer (Boozer pls kthx) after accumulating a really talented backcourt and some nice frontcourt prospects in Arthur and Gasol (plus Warrick, who could be a valuable trade piece).

that is the most wonderful spin i have ever seen put on that trade... nice work.

not to derail this thread or anything

Frazod
07-08-2008, 08:05 PM
have no idea why you are using "you/your" when you're addressing me. i'm not a cubs fan if that is what you think.

i'm just saying that the cardinals have been banking on the cubs/brewers/astros to eat shit when it matters for too long now. if they don't make a move, they won't make the playoffs.

Well, pardon me. Generally you'd have to be a Cubs homer to be spouting that "class of the NL" horseshit.

Ultra Peanut
07-08-2008, 08:05 PM
Oh yeah. Real tough stretch there where you clowns didn't play a team with a winning record for over a month. Oh, you mean April? Funny that you're ruminating on that, because they just came out of a month with a tough schedule in which they played long stretches without their best offensive outfielder and their ace pitcher, yet finished 15-12 despite a 1-5 slump at the end of said difficult month.

Let's start printing World Series t-shirts because you can beat the crap out of Pittsburgh. LMAO It's not the Cubs' fault that the Cardinals are 4-5 against the ****ing Pirates. Yeah, that's a whopping three games less than the Cubs have played against them.

Good teams beat bad teams. That's kind of the job.

Four teams in all of baseball have winning records on the road. Two of them lead their division (by 6 and 1.5 games), one is 3.5 games back, and the other is 8.5 games back.

Generally you'd have to be a Cubs homer to be spouting that "class of the NL" horseshit.Yeah, having a run differential of +100 and leading the division that features the three best records in the league completely fails to resemble the "class" of said league.

Coach
07-08-2008, 08:07 PM
Well, pardon me. Generally you'd have to be a Cubs homer to be spouting that "class of the NL" horseshit.

Even an average MLB fan would generally concede to the fact that the Cubs are the class of the NL, currently.

Ultra Peanut
07-08-2008, 08:10 PM
that is the most wonderful spin i have ever seen put on that trade... nice work.

not to derail this thread or anythingIt's not spin, just an acknowledgment of the fact that the Grizzlies got some solid young players and a shitload of cap space in return. I know the popular thing to do as soon as the trade was announced was to say, "HURRR GRIZZLIES R DUMN," (thanks for the insight, ESPN!) but it wasn't even remotely the "magic beans" scenario it was painted as. The team wasn't going anywhere with Pau's skillset/contract combination, and this afforded a chance to rebuild.

Frazod
07-08-2008, 08:14 PM
Oh, you mean April? Funny that you're ruminating on that, because they just came out of a month with a tough schedule in which they played long stretches without their best offensive outfielder and their ace pitcher, yet finished 15-12 despite a 1-5 slump at the end of said difficult month.

It's not the Cubs' fault that the Cardinals are 4-5 against the ****ing Pirates. Yeah, that's a whopping three games less than the Cubs have played against them.

Good teams beat bad teams. That's kind of the job.

Four teams in all of baseball have winning records on the road. Two of them lead their division (by 6 and 1.5 games), one is 3.5 games back, and the other is 8.5 games back.

I wasn't even talking about April. From May 5 until June 17, the Cubs did not play a team that currently has a winning record. Check it yourself if you don't believe me. To be fair though, at the time, Arizona did have a winning record, so let's call it from May 12 to June 17. Still over a month.

Wow, I'm just in f#cking awe over Cub greatness. :whackit:

And BTW, as you certainly know, one of the Four teams that has a winning road record is St. Louis.

Frazod
07-08-2008, 08:25 PM
Even an average MLB fan would generally concede to the fact that the Cubs are the class of the NL, currently.

Sorry, but being the flavor of the month cock at ESPN doesn't impress me. Beating up on the dregs of the league doesn't impress me. The Cubs have only won TWO series against a winning team all year - a two game sweep against the .506 Mets at home in April, and this past weekend in St. Louis. And it's not like they exactly beat the hell out of us, either.

Perhaps they should win at least one more series against a good team before we anoint them as the '27 Yankees. :rolleyes:

Ultra Peanut
07-08-2008, 08:40 PM
Farewell, sweet prince.

http://i37.tinypic.com/302ueko.jpg

SPATCH
07-08-2008, 08:54 PM
Sorry, but being the flavor of the month cock at ESPN doesn't impress me. Beating up on the dregs of the league doesn't impress me. The Cubs have only won TWO series against a winning team all year - a two game sweep against the .506 Mets at home in April, and this past weekend in St. Louis. And it's not like they exactly beat the hell out of us, either.

Perhaps they should win at least one more series against a good team before we anoint them as the '27 Yankees. :rolleyes:

that's not true... i can already think of one more off the top of my head. didn't they sweep the white sox in the north side?

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-08-2008, 09:05 PM
Great deal for the Cubs. Even though Harden is injury prone, they really didn't give up anyone that probably fit in thier future plans. Well worth the risk for a talent like Harden.....that said i hope he gets a hangnail and hits the DL ASAP :thumb:

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-08-2008, 09:06 PM
Sorry, but being the flavor of the month cock at ESPN doesn't impress me. Beating up on the dregs of the league doesn't impress me. The Cubs have only won TWO series against a winning team all year - a two game sweep against the .506 Mets at home in April, and this past weekend in St. Louis. And it's not like they exactly beat the hell out of us, either.

Perhaps they should win at least one more series against a good team before we anoint them as the '27 Yankees. :rolleyes:

Can't wait till the Cards "acquire" 2 stud pitchers when Wainwright and Carpenter come back...HEH

Jewish Rabbi
07-08-2008, 09:10 PM
Not saying the Cardinals are going to win the division, or even make the playoffs, because I'm not sure Mozeliak will go out and get some bullpen help, but it's kinda ridiculous to count out the Cards. They've found ways to win thus far into the season, and are ahead of the Brewers in the standings. Over the past few days on ESPN, the Cardinals haven't been discussed when it comes to winning the Central OR Wild Card.

Frazod
07-08-2008, 09:12 PM
that's not true... i can already think of one more off the top of my head. didn't they sweep the white sox in the north side?

I stand corrected :wayne: I got wrapped up in their stats against the NL.

So they've won three.

Impressive.

Frazod
07-08-2008, 09:13 PM
Right now offensive seems to be the Cards' biggest problem. They won tonight, but the final score was 2-0.

But against the Phillies, ON THE ROAD, I'll take it.

SPATCH
07-08-2008, 09:16 PM
I stand corrected :wayne: I got wrapped up in their stats against the NL.

So they've won three.

Impressive.

winning records are scantly present in the NL...

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-08-2008, 09:16 PM
Right now offensive seems to be the Cards' biggest problem. They won tonight, but the final score was 2-0.

But against the Phillies, ON THE ROAD, I'll take it.

Heck considering the matchup was Piniero vs. Cole Hamels ill take it.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-08-2008, 09:17 PM
winning records are scantly present in the NL...

That is true. Lot of teams stinking in up. Especially the NL West.

OnTheWarpath58
07-08-2008, 09:20 PM
Right now offensive seems to be the Cards' biggest problem. They won tonight, but the final score was 2-0.

But against the Phillies, ON THE ROAD, I'll take it.


Against Cole Hamels, no less.

HolmeZz
07-08-2008, 09:22 PM
Moneyball doesn't get owned. It does the ownage.

Beane has his share of blunders. He got shit back for Hudson.

Frazod
07-08-2008, 09:31 PM
Against Cole Hamels, no less.

Yep. On the road, too.

Of course, no one will care about that - we'll just hear about how the ALMIGHTY CUBS beat the hapless Reds at Wrigley. :spock:

little jacob
07-08-2008, 09:39 PM
the reds aren't so bad. nobody in the nl central is really that bad. the worst team is only 8 under. other than the al east, most divisions the worst team is around 20 under.

the cubs are still an indefinite 'believe it when i see it' proposition until further notice though. obviously.

Coach
07-08-2008, 10:27 PM
Sorry, but being the flavor of the month cock at ESPN doesn't impress me. Beating up on the dregs of the league doesn't impress me. The Cubs have only won TWO series against a winning team all year - a two game sweep against the .506 Mets at home in April, and this past weekend in St. Louis. And it's not like they exactly beat the hell out of us, either.

Perhaps they should win at least one more series against a good team before we anoint them as the '27 Yankees. :rolleyes:

I understand that beating up the dregs of the league doesn't impress you. However, most teams, especially good teams, HAVE to beat the not-so-good teams, like the Pirates, San Fransico, San Deigo, etc. As for the sweep aganist good teams, sometimes sweeping them isn't a necesserly. If a team wins 2 out of a 3 game series, isn't that good enough for at least 85 wins? If you take 2 out of 3 in every series, you can't do no worse than .570 at least.
As for the beating the hell out of St. Louis, no, that's true. However, a win is a win, and a loss is a loss, regardless if it's a 1 run game or a 9 run game.

I'm not annointing them as the '27 Yankees or anything like that. However, the numbers don't lie.

- 1st in the NL on team OBP of .359.
- 1st in the NL on team batting average of .283.
- 2nd in the NL on team SLG of .444.
- 3rd in the NL on team ERA of 3.86.
- 3rd in the NL on team pitching of OBA (On Base Allowed) of .320

So, obviously they're doing something right, and quite frankly, it's not something fluky. I think by the end of the season, that the Cubs will possibly win 90 games, and be at least 8 games up in the standings.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-08-2008, 10:51 PM
I think the last couple of years have proved just get in the playoffs and anybody can win it all. Heck the Cards lost in the playoffs a bunch of times with a great regular season record, but were not an impressive team at all in the regular season the year they won the world series. Go figure. Until the Cubbies get it done in the postseason, they will always have thier doubters.

Nightfyre
07-08-2008, 11:01 PM
I admit, if I was a GM, I'd have jumped at the chance to have Harden. I love watching him pitch.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-08-2008, 11:02 PM
Speaking of A's pitchers Justin Duchscherer has an ERA of 1.78 after throwing a shutout tonight :eek: holy Raiduhs

tk13
07-08-2008, 11:07 PM
I don't think it's an awful deal for either side. The Cubs have to go for it all. The A's got 4 guys who could play at an ML level for someone who usually can't pitch a whole season without getting hurt.

Coach
07-08-2008, 11:22 PM
I don't think it's an awful deal for either side. The Cubs have to go for it all. The A's got 4 guys who could play at an ML level for someone who usually can't pitch a whole season without getting hurt.

On paper, it looks like the A's got fleeced on this deal. Of course, you can't tell how good a trade will be until at least 2-3 years down the road.

But the A's have optioned 3 of those 4 guys to their farm system, and Gallagher is moved to the pen, which I think is not a smart move. And the Cubs got two solid players, and didn't have to give up Vitters, Pie, Hill, and Marshall? That's pretty impressive.

Sure-Oz
07-09-2008, 12:30 AM
The value would've been 10x higher if harden wasn't injured half his career

POND_OF_RED
07-09-2008, 01:00 AM
This is outstanding. Harden was obviously the 2nd best pitcher available for trade if he can just stay healthy . Zambrano-Harden-Dempster-Lilly-Marshall. Looks like it will be an amazing 2nd half of the season between the Cubs and Brewers.

StcChief
07-09-2008, 08:16 AM
The value would've been 10x higher if harden wasn't injured half his careeryeah....Harden could be the next Mulder that the A's dumped. still pissed about that trade.

smittysbar
07-09-2008, 08:43 AM
As a Cards fan, this SUCKS. Cubs are making the right moves to try and get over the top.

Even though most in this thread are counting the Cards finished because of the two acquisitions that have went down. Don't forget that they will be getting their two aces back shortly too. Yes they have overachieved, and yes I have been waiting for them to fall off, but wow what a surprise. After getting the pitching staff healthy they could have a chance. A chance that at the first of the season I would have told you was impossible.

Hoover
07-09-2008, 09:14 AM
As a Cubs fan I'm shocked that this move was done right after the Brewers landed Sabathia. I was confident they would add an arm but thought it would be closer to the deadline.

That said, I'm thrilled with the move. While Harden has injury issues, its a huge upgrade over Gallagher and we didn't have to give up anything to get him in my opinion. Murton is an AL player who never had a home on this team and that wasn't ever going to change. Heck, Soriano goes down and he still couldn't find the field. The organization liked EPat, but he was exposed in the OF which meant that he was only valuable at 2nd base where the Cubs have a log jam. The catcher is only 3 years younger than Soto, and his defense needs work so no real loss there.

I'm obviously thrilled with Harden but to get a solid bull pen arm who can also spot start is an added bonus.

My gut feeling tells me that the Cubs are not done, they still have some bullets to trade if they so desire and I don't put it past the Cubs to find a little insurance if they can get it at a reasonable price.

My pipe dream would have them still swing a deal with Toronto for AJ Burnett, and find a team where they could unload Marquis.

If that doesn't happen I'm still a happy man.

Zambrano
Harden
Dempster
Lilly
Marquis/Marshall

Or my Pipe dream rotation

Zambrano
Dempster
Harden
Lilly
Burnett

Frazod
07-09-2008, 09:34 AM
This is outstanding. Harden was obviously the 2nd best pitcher available for trade if he can just stay healthy . Zambrano-Harden-Dempster-Lilly-Marshall. Looks like it will be an amazing 2nd half of the season between the Cubs and Brewers.

When the season is over and I'm jamming yet another year of failure up your ass sideways, remember all the snide little statements like this that you've made.

allen_kcCard
07-09-2008, 09:53 AM
Looks like the cubs are really desparate to try to avoid that 100 year mark of futility...too bad (for them) they will still manage to blow it.

I think they should implement a "Cubs Rule" where if a team goes for this long without winning it all they should call off an entire year and give them a mercy title...poor little guys.


I will love it when all the talking heads say that the Cards didn't make any moved to match the Cubs and Bewers and will thus fade down the strech, only to see them eat thier words when Muldar finds himself in as a solid #3, Wainwright and Carp come back in August and are both strong and the Cards run away with it.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-09-2008, 10:09 AM
Looks like the cubs are really desparate to try to avoid that 100 year mark of futility...too bad (for them) they will still manage to blow it.

I think they should implement a "Cubs Rule" where if a team goes for this long without winning it all they should call off an entire year and give them a mercy title...poor little guys.


I will love it when all the talking heads say that the Cards didn't make any moved to match the Cubs and Bewers and will thus fade down the strech, only to see them eat thier words when Muldar finds himself in as a solid #3, Wainwright and Carp come back in August and are both strong and the Cards run away with it.

:LOL: Cubs fans sure are an arrogant bunch considering the history of futility they have endured. Even if they employed a "Cubs Rule" they'd still find a way to screw it up.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-09-2008, 10:12 AM
This is outstanding. Harden was obviously the 2nd best pitcher available for trade if he can just stay healthy . Zambrano-Harden-Dempster-Lilly-Marshall. Looks like it will be an amazing 2nd half of the season between the Cubs and Brewers.

ROFL 100 years and counting SEA OF BLUE tears.

Frazod
07-09-2008, 10:22 AM
:LOL: Cubs fans sure are an arrogant bunch considering the history of futility they have endured. Even if they employed a "Cubs Rule" they'd still find a way to screw it up.

That's the thing. Being hopeful is fine. Being happy that they finally don't suck for once is fine. But preening and gloating like they've won the last five World Series? Sorry, but I'm sick of hearing it.

If you win, you can gloat all you want. BUT YOU HAVE TO WIN FIRST.

allen_kcCard
07-09-2008, 10:27 AM
If they do ever win it again, we will probably have to endure back-pay of a centuries worth of pent up goat (oops, gloat) envy.

Frazod
07-09-2008, 10:29 AM
If they do ever win it again, we will probably have to endure back-pay of a centuries worth of pent up goat (oops, gloat) envy.

Shit. Like once in a 100 years is really all that much better.

StcChief
07-09-2008, 11:44 AM
Harden the Cubs new Mulder.

epitome1170
07-09-2008, 12:11 PM
what about dan haren. that deal worked out "ok" for Arizona.

It worked out MUCH BETTER though for the A's. I believe they have three everyday starters playing right now for Dan Haren.

As for the Harden trade, it is hard to think the Cubs will like this in the end. I just do not trust Moneyball anymore. I especially do not trust any pitchers coming from Oakland. Look at all of the stud pitchers that spent any significant amount of time there that was traded recently. Zito... turned to crap. Mulder... even bigger bust. Hudson... the best of the three, but definitely not the ace he was supposed to be. Oakland overworks their starters and then gets rid of them at high values. Then they break down and are never the same.

I can see the same thing with Harden. Rumors have it that Harden was already breaking down with a drop in velocity and the A's got rid of him so quickly because they were not certain if he would last until the end of the month and maintain his value. Time will tell.

BIG_DADDY
07-09-2008, 12:23 PM
Billy Beane is the A's. He gets the best of everyone. I have no doubt this was a good move for the A's.

StcChief
07-09-2008, 12:36 PM
Billy Beane is the A's. He gets the best of everyone. I have no doubt this was a good move for the A's.
yeah. I'm thinking that too.... Cubs had to do something or the fans would hang 'em....

with BrewCrew getting C.C. and knowing Cards will get Wainwright/Carp back, Mulder we will see.

The deal might be OK, A's probably got best deal.


We still should have kept Harren, He'd be a starter here.

raybec 4
07-09-2008, 03:27 PM
Harden the Cubs new Mulder.

I am amazed the Cubs gave up so much young talent for a guy that has never pitched a full season. Harden has been on the DL every single year he's been in the big leagues.

SPATCH
07-09-2008, 03:37 PM
I am amazed the Cubs gave up so much young talent for a guy that has never pitched a full season. Harden has been on the DL every single year he's been in the big leagues.

they didn't give up shit... nothing that was involved in their future plans anyway

Sure-Oz
07-09-2008, 04:11 PM
Gallagher may have had a future the rest did not, great deal for the cubs.

Matt Murton is their Mitch Maeier

Coach
07-10-2008, 12:26 AM
Harden to start for the Cubs on Saturday.