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Silock
07-11-2008, 04:35 AM
http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2008/07/is_black_hole_a.html

A special meeting about Dallas County traffic tickets turned tense and bizarre this afternoon.

County commissioners were discussing problems with the central collections office that is used to process traffic ticket payments and handle other paperwork normally done by the JP Courts.

Commissioner Kenneth Mayfield, who is white, said it seemed that central collections "has become a black hole" because paperwork reportedly has become lost in the office.

Commissioner John Wiley Price, who is black, interrupted him with a loud "Excuse me!" He then corrected his colleague, saying the office has become a "white hole."

That prompted Judge Thomas Jones, who is black, to demand an apology from Mayfield for his racially insensitive analogy.

Mayfield shot back that it was a figure of speech and a science term.

Skip Towne
07-11-2008, 06:13 AM
:shrug:

kepp
07-11-2008, 06:32 AM
Aren't judges supposed to be...learned?

stumppy
07-11-2008, 07:18 AM
Aren't judges supposed to be...learned?



No, they don't have to learned anymore once they get the job.

Lonewolf Ed
07-11-2008, 07:28 AM
I love black licorice. Does that make me a bad person?

Duck Dog
07-11-2008, 07:33 AM
I believe the time is coming when the term 'racist' has been so over used that no one listens anymore.

bishop_74
07-11-2008, 07:38 AM
Product of Affirmative Action. You don't have to be knowledgeable and work hard to graduate from college ... you just have to be a minority.

Hound333
07-11-2008, 07:39 AM
I think we should strike the word black from the english language. Without doing that the english language is rasist.

Skip Towne
07-11-2008, 07:44 AM
Should I get rid of my Blackberry?

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 07:50 AM
it seems like all of the parties involved are ass holes......

wutamess
07-11-2008, 07:56 AM
I love black licorice. Does that make me a bad person?

Makes you an Anise loving Mo Fo.
~ That's some nasty shit.

StcChief
07-11-2008, 08:03 AM
Should I get rid of my Blackberry?
just trade up for whiteberry

wutamess
07-11-2008, 08:13 AM
Product of Affirmative Action. You don't have to be knowledgeable and work hard to graduate from college ... you just have to be a minority.


Dumbass statement of the year. :spock:
I've yet to see one black person truly benefit from AA while being under performed to do a job.

I'd love to hear of your example(s).

I understand you're joining /piling on all in fun but that statement is just plain ignorant and can lead to influencing others ignorance.

~Yes I take offense to it.

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 08:20 AM
Dumbass statement of the year. :spock:
I've yet to see one black person truly benefit from AA while being under performed to do a job.

I'd love to hear of your example(s).

I understand you're joining /piling on all in fun but that statement is just plain ignorant and can lead to influencing others ignorance.

~Yes I take offense to it.

Wouldn't it be better to know that a person got a position as a result of his/her qualifications instead of ethnicity or gender?

Equal outcomes can't be the end goal, equal opportunities can be and it would be up to the person to make the most of his/her opportunity.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 08:24 AM
Wouldn't it be better to know that a person got a position as a result of his/her qualifications instead of ethnicity or gender?

Equal outcomes can't be the end goal, equal opportunities can be and it would be up to the person to make the most of his/her opportunity.

That's just it... AA kinda takes the racism slant out of hiring practices by forcing traditionally white establishments to diversify.

I know people think AA isn't right but how else would the playing field be level when (my figures) 90% of CEO's, directors, etc are probably the stereotypical white male who'd otherwise tend to hire their own?

I think AA is a way to level the playing field. It's not so bad that 1-2 black people (out of 100's of jobs being offered) get preferential treatment when their qualifications are just as good as the next man (no matter what color). But if their qualifications are inferior to the other man's then i'd have a problem with that as well.

bishop_74
07-11-2008, 08:25 AM
Dumbass statement of the year. :spock:
I've yet to see one black person truly benefit from AA while being under performed to do a job.

I'd love to hear of your example(s).

I understand you're joining /piling on all in fun but that statement is just plain ignorant and can lead to influencing others ignorance.

~Yes I take offense to it.

I figured somebody would. My example is clearly stated in the article above. I hate to say it but anyone that buys in to it is cheating themselves and the future of America. The key to opportunity and knowledge in America is Hard Work... not a free ride. We are only going to make ourselves less intelligent if we continue to coddle. The idea that minorities don't have the same opportunities as any one else these days is dangerous, irresponsible, and outdated.

...and I apologize for offending you.

blueballs
07-11-2008, 08:26 AM
strange
no one complains about being in the pink
in fact they get down right giddy

wutamess
07-11-2008, 08:38 AM
I figured somebody would. My example is clearly stated in the article above. I hate to say it but anyone that buys in to it is cheating themselves and the future of America. The key to opportunity and knowledge in America is Hard Work... not a free ride. We are only going to make ourselves less intelligent if we continue to coddle. The idea that minorities don't have the same opportunities as any one else these days is dangerous, irresponsible, and outdated.

...and I apologize for offending you.

Not saying we don't have the same opportunities in some departments (schooling) but within the workplace, you're not looking at facts here... You're basically telling me that only 5% (generous number) of minorities are competent enough to lead fortune 500 corps. If that's how you feel then that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Having said that, since 95% of our fortune 500 CEO's and top level execs are white, how else would you ensure fair practices that a minority gets an equal chance at a position?

Again... Show me an example where a minority had preferential treatment over someone else while being under qualified for a position.

~No matter how ignorant it is.

Lzen
07-11-2008, 08:47 AM
I don't know about AA, but those dudes in the thread starter are pretty freakin' stupid. I would love to have seen their faces when someone explained what is a black hole.

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 08:55 AM
That's just it... AA kinda takes the racism slant out of hiring practices by forcing traditionally white establishments to diversify.

I know people think AA isn't right but how else would the playing field be level when (my figures) 90% of CEO's, directors, etc are probably the stereotypical white male who'd otherwise tend to hire their own?

I think AA is a way to level the playing field. It's not so bad that 1-2 black people (out of 100's of jobs being offered) get preferential treatment when their qualifications are just as good as the next man (no matter what color). But if their qualifications are inferior to the other man's then i'd have a problem with that as well.

It is a very tough situation.

I think the more the older generation leaves the work place, the more chances there will be for advancement for people of different ethnicities and gender. My parents, who are in there 70's, are very old school in that regard.


People, regardless of background, have to realize that it takes hard work to be successful and there aren't any real short cuts to get there.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 09:02 AM
It is a very tough situation.

I think the more the older generation leaves the work place, the more chances there will be for advancement for people of different ethnicities and gender. My parents, who are in there 70's, are very old school in that regard.


People, regardless of background, have to realize that it takes hard work to be successful and there aren't any real short cuts to get there.

I agree... but usually it is the HARD WORKING minority getting the AA break. I know you may not want to hear it but do you know that a minority has to do things almost twice as hard as a white person in order to get a chance?

We have to work double hard at almost everything from speech to grades to appearance to even working twice as hard to prove :rolleyes: we're just as responsible or competent as our white counterparts. Why? Because we're stereotyped as being dumb, low lives that are incapable of intellect or intelligence. So until you can devise a system that fairly levels the playing field AA is justifiable. But then again... if the system was fair then we wouldn't need AA.

I agree that it'll eventually go away with the elderly but in the meantime AA is paving the way to make it to where future bosses will no longer consider skin color in hiring practices just like we should've overlooked the fact that Hillary was a FEMALE presidential candidate (which is the way it should be).

DaFace
07-11-2008, 09:06 AM
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Silock
07-11-2008, 09:08 AM
The idea that minorities don't have the same opportunities as any one else these days is dangerous, irresponsible, and outdated.


I know what you're saying, but the facts simply don't bear that out. Yes, it is changing for the better, and I long for the day when we don't need it, but we still do at the moment. The higher up you get, the more it's about WHO you know and not what you know, and that's an area where minorities simply don't have any chance. They haven't been in the upper echelons of business long enough to develop those kinds of relationships.

You're absolutely right that the basis of this country is working hard to succeed. But when people actively block minorities' rights to equal and fair employment, there's a problem. Doing that is contrary to the principles of this country. It's why we needed Griggs vs. Duke Power Company to regulate hiring practices. It's why we needed Gratz vs. Bollinger and Grutter vs. Bollinger to define what is appropriate use of AA and what is not.

Donger
07-11-2008, 09:13 AM
We have to work double hard at almost everything from speech to grades to appearance to even working twice as hard to prove :rolleyes: we're just as responsible or competent as our white counterparts. Why? Because we're stereotyped as being dumb, low lives that are incapable of intellect or intelligence.

I don't understand this. You have to work twice as hard because minorities are stereotyped?

StcChief
07-11-2008, 09:13 AM
check DMV and other gov't agencies....

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 09:17 AM
I agree... but usually it is the HARD WORKING minority getting the AA break. I know you may not want to hear it but do you know that a minority has to do things almost twice as hard as a white person in order to get a chance?

I would agree with you on this, there are times in which that does happen and that shouldn't.


We have to work double hard at almost everything from speech to grades to appearance to even working twice as hard to prove :rolleyes: we're just as responsible or competent as our white counterparts. Why? Because we're stereotyped as being dumb, low lives that are incapable of intellect or intelligence. So until you can devise a system that fairly levels the playing field AA is justifiable. But then again... if the system was equal we wouldn't need AA.

I think you would be hard pressed to truly prove that there isn't a level playing field. There are steps that can be taken in order to do so. Taking an active part in education of our children. There are success stories all over the place where kids have come from down and out situations and have through hard work, sometimes inspite of their parents, and have become very successful. Making sure that the children know what is expected and what will not be tolerated. Unfortunately, the infrastructure doesn't really like supporting parents in this manner. There are people that have to work twice as hard because of thought to be limitations whether it be ethnicity, gender or economic background.

I agree that it'll eventually go away with the elderly but in the meantime AA is paving the way to make it to where future bosses will no longer consider skin color in hiring practices just like we should've overlooked the fact that Hillary was a FEMALE presidential candidate (which is the way it should be).


But if a person of a different background isn't given the job on basis of qualifications, it shouldn't be labeled as racist. If it truly was, then it should be dealt with swiftly and strongly.

Lzen
07-11-2008, 09:19 AM
I agree... but usually it is the HARD WORKING minority getting the AA break. I know you may not want to hear it but do you know that a minority has to do things almost twice as hard as a white person in order to get a chance?

We have to work double hard at almost everything from speech to grades to appearance to even working twice as hard to prove :rolleyes: we're just as responsible or competent as our white counterparts. Why? Because we're stereotyped as being dumb, low lives that are incapable of intellect or intelligence. So until you can devise a system that fairly levels the playing field AA is justifiable. But then again... if the system was fair then we wouldn't need AA.

I agree that it'll eventually go away with the elderly but in the meantime AA is paving the way to make it to where future bosses will no longer consider skin color in hiring practices just like we should've overlooked the fact that Hillary was a FEMALE presidential candidate (which is the way it should be).

I don't agree. Sure, there may be a small percentage of places and people left nowadays that may make it more difficult on minorities. But I don't think that is the case most of the time. I think that hardest thing to change is that perception.

Donger
07-11-2008, 09:20 AM
Having said that, since 95% of our fortune 500 CEO's and top level execs are white, how else would you ensure fair practices that a minority gets an equal chance at a position?

Do the other 95% of non-whites desire to be CEOs of Fortune 500 companies?

Lzen
07-11-2008, 09:23 AM
You just gotta love how this guy can't even admit his stupid mistake. :shake:

Later, Price told MyFOXdfw.com that he believed it and other terms were racist.
"So if it's 'angel food cake,' it's white. If it's 'devil's food cake,' it's black. If you're the 'black sheep of the family,' then you gotta be bad, you know. 'White sheep,' you're okay. You know?" Price said.
Price said people should watch their words when it comes to stereotypes.
"I think people should always be careful. You know, I'm okay if I'm 'bartering' with you. ... But if I try to 'Jew you down,' Oooooh. Is that racist? I thought it meant the same thing? No, maybe it doesn't."

Donger
07-11-2008, 09:24 AM
You just gotta love how this guy can't even admit his stupid mistake. :shake:

Wow. What a f*cking idiot.

bishop_74
07-11-2008, 09:29 AM
Not saying we don't have the same opportunities in some departments (schooling) but within the workplace, you're not looking at facts here... You're basically telling me that only 5% (generous number) of minorities are competent enough to lead fortune 500 corps. If that's how you feel then that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Having said that, since 95% of our fortune 500 CEO's and top level execs are white, how else would you ensure fair practices that a minority gets an equal chance at a position?

Again... Show me an example where a minority had preferential treatment over someone else while being under qualified for a position.

~No matter how ignorant it is.

College admittance and government jobs are a few examples. It's unfortunate that that students who work VERY hard do not get in to certain schools because the schools need to meet a certain quota of minorities by law. I see it all day long every day. And society can suffer because of it.

This may sound racist, but it is not intended to be.

The people that hold the jobs because of race; not qualifications are by far the WORST at what they do. I am not sure if it is because they know they can get away with it or not. They contribute the least and make the most amount of noise and pull the race card if they don't get their way. I would be embarrassed if I acted like this.

Of course this is my own little small piece of the world I see.

HC_Chief
07-11-2008, 09:33 AM
Wow. What a f*cking idiot.

So true it bears repeating.

Wow. What a f*cking idiot.

Adept Havelock
07-11-2008, 09:44 AM
Why would Comissioner Price object to comparing the office to a collapsed star, and insist it's actually a Quasar?

Wow. What a f*cking idiot.

Oh. That would certainly explain it.

Meanwhile, Judge Jones needs to watch an episode or two of Cosmos.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 09:46 AM
Do the other 95% of non-whites desire to be CEOs of Fortune 500 companies?

Don't start your question asking reasoning method with me... If you have an opinion... state it. Otherwise stop asking questions to try to get me to double cross myself.

Having said that... do you think that minorities don't strive to be CEO's or upper level execs of corporations? Think before you ask.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 09:48 AM
I don't understand this. You have to work twice as hard because minorities are stereotyped?

Yes... if you look at it from a minority's perspective instead of your "I have black friends" perspective you'll see what I'm talking about.

Donger
07-11-2008, 09:50 AM
Don't start your question asking reasoning method with me... If you have an opinion... state it. Otherwise stop asking questions to try to get me to double cross myself.

Having said that... do you think that minorities don't strive to be CEO's or upper level execs of corporations? Think before you ask.

I don't know. I'm not a minority. I would like to think they do, but I don't know.

Hence my question.

Donger
07-11-2008, 09:52 AM
Yes... if you look at it from a minority's perspective instead of your "I have black friends" perspective you'll see what I'm talking about.

I can't. Perhaps you could give some examples of how minorities have to work twice as hard because of stereotypes?

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 09:53 AM
Don't start your question asking reasoning method with me... If you have an opinion... state it. Otherwise stop asking questions to try to get me to double cross myself.

Having said that... do you think that minorities don't strive to be CEO's or upper level execs of corporations? Think before you ask.

I would say that only a small percentage of corporate management strive to be CEO. I certainly wouldn't want to be.

The person that would want to be in that position would be driven and probably wouldn't have too many issues getting a position like that somewhere, especially with board of director's wanting it to look good for them to have a CEO of a different gender or ethnicity.

Is it fair to promote someone above their capabilities?

Just because they are x or y?

wutamess
07-11-2008, 09:57 AM
I don't know. I'm not a minority. I would like to think they do, but I don't know.

Hence my question.

Well if you think they'd do... isn't it safe to assume yes?

King_Chief_Fan
07-11-2008, 09:58 AM
wow......just wow on this thread

wutamess
07-11-2008, 09:58 AM
I can't. Perhaps you could give some examples of how minorities have to work twice as hard because of stereotypes?

Just trust me on that one.

markk
07-11-2008, 09:59 AM
i dont happen to work with any minorities. i think the reason for that is they can only hire from the pool of people who apply. it follows that they can only promote managers from amongst the people who work here and they can only make executives from the managers who work here and they can only make CEOs out of the pool of executives they have to work with.

other businesses maybe are not the same. but some are that way. just like some businesses are more likely to be chiefly staffed by men.

Donger
07-11-2008, 09:59 AM
Well if you think they'd do... isn't it safe to assume yes?

Okay, so if they do, what's stopping them? Racism?

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:00 AM
I would say that only a small percentage of corporate management strive to be CEO. I certainly wouldn't want to be.

The person that would want to be in that position would be driven and probably wouldn't have too many issues getting a position like that somewhere, especially with board of director's wanting it to look good for them to have a CEO of a different gender or ethnicity.

Is it fair to promote someone above their capabilities?

Just because they are x or y?

So what makes so many more whites want to be CEO's as opposed to minorities?
That doesn't make sense.

Donger
07-11-2008, 10:00 AM
Just trust me on that one.

I do trust you, but I think some examples would be beneficial.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:00 AM
Okay, so if they do, what's stopping them? Racism?

In some cases yes which is why I'm for AA.

~problem solved.

Micjones
07-11-2008, 10:02 AM
Product of Affirmative Action. You don't have to be knowledgeable and work hard to graduate from college ... you just have to be a minority.

You don't have to be knowledgeable to post in this forum either.

1. The selection of unqualified candidates is not permissable by federal Affirmative Action guidelines.

2. White women haven't been big beneficiaries of AA.
:rolleyes:

3. White men haven't been beneficiaries of preferential hiring/admissions either.
:rolleyes:

markk
07-11-2008, 10:02 AM
In some cases yes which is why I'm for AA.

~problem solved.

AA solved the problem?

Donger
07-11-2008, 10:03 AM
In some cases yes which is why I'm for AA.

~problem solved.

And the other cases? Surely you acknowledge that not all minorities are capable of being CEOs, right, just like not all whites are? I don't think that stupidity and laziness are limited to one race.

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 10:04 AM
So what makes so many more whites want to be CEO's as opposed to minorities?
That doesn't make sense.


That is a very good question that I don't have an answer.

Maybe it is a difference role models.

And the other cases? Surely you acknowledge that not all minorities are capable of being CEOs, right, just like not all whites are? I don't think that stupidity and laziness are limited to one race.

Amen to that :toast:

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:04 AM
I do trust you, but I think some examples would be beneficial.

Truthfully, I don't feel like giving examples to be judged by you and others of their validity. We feel whites are fed silver spoons from birth while we have to work hard for everything we get. You're (not you) born in the network of the good ol boy. You KNOW the inner circles while more than likely we have to start from scratch as we're usually first generation corporate employees.

All the while you're (not you) bitching about 1-2% of QUALIFIED minorities getting a job over whites.

~The good ol boy network is the reason AA is in place.

Micjones
07-11-2008, 10:05 AM
Wouldn't it be better to know that a person got a position as a result of his/her qualifications instead of ethnicity or gender?

Absolutely, but remember AA prohibits the hiring/admissions of unqualified candidates. There are certainly instances of hiring/admissions where the candidates are unequal, but mostly where the differences are small and indistinguishable.

But while we're on the subject...Are you prepared to take seniority or accreditation away from White workers/students who benefitted from preferential hiring/admissions?

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:06 AM
That is a very good question that I don't have an answer.

Maybe it is a difference role models.

Another dumbass statement. How many more you have?

Maybe it's because the upper echelon of corporations are usually white and are more apt to hire their own.

~ Your ignorance is really annoying at this point.

Skip Towne
07-11-2008, 10:07 AM
I do trust you, but I think some examples would be beneficial.

Anytime someone says "trust me", I don't trust them.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:07 AM
Dumbass statement of the year. :spock:
I've yet to see one black person truly benefit from AA while being under performed to do a job.

I'd love to hear of your example(s).

I understand you're joining /piling on all in fun but that statement is just plain ignorant and can lead to influencing others ignorance.

~Yes I take offense to it.

I could give you several examples, including one from a former situation where we had to get together and create a reason to terminate the employee without violating the myriad and crippling AA directives.

Have you ever owned a business? 99% of business owners or corporate leaders I know HATE AA though they would never say it out loud.

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 10:08 AM
If I was in a position of hiring people for my company, I wouldn't care what ethnicity or gender they were, I would want the best qualified for the particular position.

Donger
07-11-2008, 10:08 AM
Truthfully, I don't feel like giving examples to be judged by you and others of their validity. We feel whites are fed silver spoons from birth while we have to work hard for everything we get.

Wow. You've got some serious issues.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:09 AM
And the other cases? Surely you acknowledge that not all minorities are capable of being CEOs, right, just like not all whites are? I don't think that stupidity and laziness are limited to one race.

So you mean to tell me that we can have a incompetent, stupid, lazy white Presidents, CEOs (Sprint), Enron, etc.

But we can't take a cahnce on having a minority one?
Furthermore, how would you know they're incompetent if they've never been given a chance?

All we want is a chance. Hence... we have to work twice as hard to prove ourselves to the good'ol boy network.

Lzen
07-11-2008, 10:10 AM
In some cases yes which is why I'm for AA.

~problem solved.

I think AA looks good on paper. And I'm sure that there are examples of it working as intended. At the same time, I think it also can give a job to a less qualified applicant just because said applicant is a minority. Do I have a better way? No. I wish I did.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:10 AM
Have you ever owned a business? 99% of business owners or corporate leaders I know HATE AA though they would never say it out loud.


And that's why it's needed.
Thanks for proving my point.

Donger
07-11-2008, 10:11 AM
So you mean to tell me that we can have a incompetent, stupid, lazy white Presidents, CEOs (Sprint), Enron, etc.

But we can't take a cahnce on having a minority one?
Furthermore, how would you know they're incompetent if they've never been given a chance?

All we want is a chance. Hence... we have to work twice as hard to prove ourselves to the good'ol boy network.

I said nothing of the kind. I'm sure there are plenty of stupid, lazy white people who choose not to work hard (or are too stupid to do it) in order to attain such a position, just as I'm sure that their are an equivalent percentage of black people who are the same way.

Micjones
07-11-2008, 10:11 AM
Truthfully, I don't feel like giving examples to be judged by you and others of their validity. We feel whites are fed silver spoons from birth while we have to work hard for everything we get. You're (not you) born in the network of the good ol boy. You KNOW the inner circles while more than likely we have to start from scratch as we're usually first generation corporate employees.

All the while you're (not you) bitching about 1-2% of QUALIFIED minorities getting a job over whites.

~The good ol boy network is the reason AA is in place.

While I absolutely believe in White privilege...
I have to debunk the notion that they've all been silver spooned.

Lzen
07-11-2008, 10:12 AM
Truthfully, I don't feel like giving examples to be judged by you and others of their validity. We feel whites are fed silver spoons from birth while we have to work hard for everything we get. You're (not you) born in the network of the good ol boy. You KNOW the inner circles while more than likely we have to start from scratch as we're usually first generation corporate employees.

All the while you're (not you) bitching about 1-2% of QUALIFIED minorities getting a job over whites.

~The good ol boy network is the reason AA is in place.

Interesting analogy. I think that has a lot more to do with economic status than ethnic background.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:13 AM
Wow. You've got some serious issues.
Thanks. I know whites feel the same. but they have a head start.
We don't in a lot of cases because of the unfair hiring practices of the past.

Micjones
07-11-2008, 10:14 AM
Have you ever owned a business? 99% of business owners or corporate leaders I know HATE AA though they would never say it out loud.

Wholly inaccurate.
Gallup polls over just the last 10 years found that Americans still favor Affirmative Action.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:15 AM
If I was in a position of hiring people for my company, I wouldn't care what ethnicity or gender they were, I would want the best qualified for the particular position.

How would you like to own a company and be told by the OFCCP that you are underutilizing a particular ethnic group and need to increase the frequency of their representation within your employee base to reflect the percentage of the general populace?

Nevermind that your employees are all electrical engineers, 90 % of whom are white, and that your geographic location is 95% white, and that if you ever did find a black electrical engineer they always tell you " I don't want to live there I don't like winter and there are no black people there".

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:15 AM
Interesting analogy. I think that has a lot more to do with economic status than ethnic background.

It was a generalization... not meaning EVERY WHITE.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:16 AM
Wholly inaccurate.
Gallup polls over just the last 10 years found that Americans still favor Affirmative Action.

I'll put my real world, behind closed doors experience up against a Gallup poll or any other publicized response any day of the week.

Donger
07-11-2008, 10:17 AM
Thanks. I know whites feel the same. but they have a head start.
We don't in a lot of cases because of the unfair hiring practices of the past.

Honestly, I wouldn't presume to tell you what blacks "feel."

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:18 AM
I'll put my real world, behind closed doors experience up against a Gallup poll or any other publicized response any day of the week.

Because you're quite the corporate mogul :rolleyes:

Lzen
07-11-2008, 10:19 AM
Wholly inaccurate.
Gallup polls over just the last 10 years found that Americans still favor Affirmative Action.


Just curious. What is the percentage?

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:19 AM
Honestly, I wouldn't presume to tell you what blacks "feel."

Well it's been said before that we get breaks because of AA while you have to work twice as heard.

Same rhetoric as I just spieled.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:19 AM
And that's why it's needed.
Thanks for proving my point.

I proved your point by stating that a business owner who has put literally everything he has on the line needs to be free to hire the most qualified employee regardless of color or creed? That a quota system that forces a business owner to hire underqualified employees is inherently unfair?

People like you are asking for a hand out, not a hand up.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:21 AM
Because you're quite the corporate mogul :rolleyes:

Cop out.

KcKing
07-11-2008, 10:21 AM
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markk
07-11-2008, 10:22 AM
Thanks. I know whites feel the same. but they have a head start.
We don't in a lot of cases because of the unfair hiring practices of the past.

Plenty of us people of other races worked hard for everything we have, too.

There are also plenty of us whose families have not been in this country the entire time this oppression was happening. But those people still get blamed for it so long as they appear to be 'white people'.

How is it right to look at someone on the surface and say that? You don't know their story. Just because they're white, you can tell by looking that the world has come easy for them..? There are plenty of "white people" who have had it worse than you. There are plenty who haven't. The world isn't a simple place.

This doesn't make any sense. I'm not big on victim mentality anyway but I agree. You have issues.

Donger
07-11-2008, 10:23 AM
Well it's been said before that we get breaks because of AA while you have to work twice as heard.

Same rhetoric as I just spieled.

Is the entire gist of your point that blacks have to work twice as hard because most white people are racist, overtly or not?

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 10:23 AM
While I absolutely believe in White privilege...
I have to debunk the notion that they've all been silver spooned.

I certainly haven't been. I have had to work hard for everything that I have.

How would you like to own a company and be told by the OFCCP that you are underutilizing a particular ethnic group and need to increase the frequency of their representation within your employee base to reflect the percentage of the general populace?

Nevermind that your employees are all electrical engineers, 90 % of whom are white, and that your geographic location is 95% white, and that if you ever did find a black electrical engineer they always tell you " I don't want to live there I don't like winter and there are no black people there".

I would be quite ticked at the government telling me I had to do this or that.

Would you like to be the potential black coach interviewing because he was filling a rule or because he was actually wanted there?

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:24 AM
People like you are asking for a hand out, not a hand up.

Just curious... when have I asked for a handout while talking in general?
Think what you want... Not wasting anymore time on your ignorance.

We AGREE AA is the :evil:

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:26 AM
Is the entire gist of your point that blacks have to work twice as hard because most white people are racist, overtly or not?

While having some truth...
No.. my point was AA is/was the fairest system to promote workplace diversity until someone else proves otherwise.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:27 AM
Plenty of us people of other races worked hard for everything we have, too.

There are also plenty of us whose families have not been in this country the entire time this oppression was happening. But those people still get blamed for it so long as they appear to be 'white people'.

How is it right to look at someone on the surface and say that? You don't know their story. Just because they're white, you can tell by looking that the world has come easy for them..?

This doesn't make any sense. I'm not big on victim mentality anyway but I agree. You have issues.

If that's the case... we all have them because I've more than once read on here that people hate AA because they feel they work hard for something and they're bypassed because of someone elses color.

I admit I have issues.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:27 AM
I certainly haven't been. I have had to work hard for everything that I have.



I would be quite ticked at the government telling me I had to do this or that.

Would you like to be the potential black coach interviewing because he was filling a rule or because he was actually wanted there?

No, I would be embarassed to have a job for which another candidate was better qualified because the government felt I couldn't make it on my own and so set up a discriminatory practice in order to force employers to hire me.

Donger
07-11-2008, 10:28 AM
While having some truth...
No.. my point was AA is/was the fairest system to promote workplace diversity until someone else proves otherwise.

You may note that I haven't said a word about AA.

I'm questioning why you wrote this: "We have to work double hard at almost everything from speech to grades to appearance to even working twice as hard to prove we're just as responsible or competent as our white counterparts."

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:29 AM
Just curious... when have I asked for a handout while talking in general?
Think what you want... Not wasting anymore time on your ignorance.

We AGREE AA is the :evil:

You are right, I unfairly personalized my statement. I should have said "people who support or are supported by AA are looking for a hand out not a hand up".

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:29 AM
No, I would be embarassed to have a job for which another candidate was better qualified because the government felt I couldn't make it on my own and so set up a discriminatory practice in order to force employers to hire me.

As opposed to YOU (not you) setting up discriminatory practices to prevent you from hiring me?

RNR
07-11-2008, 10:31 AM
Plenty of us people of other races worked hard for everything we have, too.

There are also plenty of us whose families have not been in this country the entire time this oppression was happening. But those people still get blamed for it so long as they appear to be 'white people'.

How is it right to look at someone on the surface and say that? You don't know their story. Just because they're white, you can tell by looking that the world has come easy for them..? There are plenty of "white people" who have had it worse than you. There are plenty who haven't. The world isn't a simple place.

This doesn't make any sense. I'm not big on victim mentality anyway but I agree. You have issues.

:clap:

Donger
07-11-2008, 10:31 AM
As opposed to YOU (not you) setting up discriminatory practices to prevent you from hiring me?

Have you ever experienced the same but from a reverse perspective? A majority black company that wouldn't hire a white person?

Even hypothetically, would that be just as bad in your eyes?

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:31 AM
You may note that I haven't said a word about AA.

I'm questioning why you wrote this: "We have to work double hard at almost everything from speech to grades to appearance to even working twice as hard to prove we're just as responsible or competent as our white counterparts."

Donger, you're not black... you don't know how you have to have a smile on your face when you walk past a white lady so that she won't fear you snatching her purse. You don't know how you have to overtip to break the stereotype that not all black people aren't bad tippers.

Just leave it alone.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:32 AM
As opposed to YOU (not you) setting up discriminatory practices to prevent you from hiring me?

My hiring practices are the same as any other business person who wants to stay in business: get the best talent regardless of color or creed. Period. End of story.
I don't give a care what they do or who they are in their own time as long as they produce on mine.

Is it right to restrict the vast majority of business owners who do not practice any form of race discrimination in order to curb the few who do?
The market will take care of those few, if you don't hire the best talent you won't stay in business.

markk
07-11-2008, 10:33 AM
If that's the case... we all have them because I've more than once read on here that people hate AA because they feel they work hard for something and they're bypassed because of someone elses color.

I'm going to hire the most qualified applicant no matter who they are. If I don't, I'm doing myself a disservice, or my shareholders or whomever's money I'm playing with.

I would oppose racist hiring practices and affirmative action for the same reason - they both keep me from fulfilling my fiduciary duty to get the greatest possible return with our owner/partners/shareholders' money. If I do anything other than hire the most qualified people no matter what they look like, I'm not doing that.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:33 AM
Have you ever experienced the same but from a reverse perspective? A majority black company that wouldn't hire a white person?

Even hypothetically, would that be just as bad in your eyes?

I haven't experienced it from ANY perspective (that I'm aware of).

Hell yes that'd be just as bad in my eyes and at the same time I can see it happening more blatantly than if it were to happen in a W company.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:34 AM
Donger, you're not black... you don't know how you have to have a smile on your face when you walk past a white lady so that she won't fear you snatching her purse. You don't know how you have to overtip to break the stereotype that not all black people aren't bad tippers.

Just leave it alone.

Do you really do this?

Donger
07-11-2008, 10:34 AM
Donger, you're not black... you don't know how you have to have a smile on your face when you walk past a white lady so that she won't fear you snatching her purse. You don't know how you have to overtip to break the stereotype that not all black people aren't bad tippers.

Just leave it alone.

No, I don't know. That's why I'm asking you. It seems that these stereotypes bother you, and it's logical to assume that you'd like to see them gone. But, you respond with "leave it alone."

That doesn't make any sense. How can these stereotypes be overcome if "we" don't know what they are AND are then told to "leave it alone"?

markk
07-11-2008, 10:35 AM
Donger, you're not black... you don't know how you have to have a smile on your face when you walk past a white lady so that she won't fear you snatching her purse. You don't know how you have to overtip to break the stereotype that not all black people aren't bad tippers.

Just leave it alone.

I'll remember this next time I stop at the gas station on the way home from work, in the bad neighborhood, and have to smile and greet people and hold the door for them, to break the stereotype that any well-dressed white guy is a racist.

Demonpenz
07-11-2008, 10:35 AM
Donger, you're not black... you don't know how you have to have a smile on your face when you walk past a white lady so that she won't fear you snatching her purse. You don't know how you have to overtip to break the stereotype that not all black people aren't bad tippers.

Just leave it alone.

Let's be serious here. You don't know what it's like trying to dance at weddings, or make sure reruns of Friends are being DVR'd correctly.

beach tribe
07-11-2008, 10:35 AM
Truthfully, I don't feel like giving examples to be judged by you and others of their validity. We feel whites are fed silver spoons from birth while we have to work hard for everything we get. You're (not you) born in the network of the good ol boy. You KNOW the inner circles while more than likely we have to start from scratch as we're usually first generation corporate employees.

All the while you're (not you) bitching about 1-2% of QUALIFIED minorities getting a job over whites.

~The good ol boy network is the reason AA is in place.

Hate to break it to you, but MOST PEOPLE, white or black, are born with JACK, (like me...Nothing.) and have to work very hard to get anything.
I have lived in many cities in this country, and there is no doubt in my mind that the playing field in areas with opportunities for the everyday man like you, and I(not the top 1%), is level. Under qualified people are given jobs in these fields when is not necessary. There are plenty of qualified minorities to fill these positions, but I don't think they bother narrowing them down because they just know they need x amount of minorities. I'm pretty sure, having lived in South Fla. this long, that it is mandatory for govenrment establishments here to hire x amount of Haitians. Most of them don't give a **** about anything, and there are plenty of people around here that deserve those jobs. Most of them african americans.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:35 AM
My hiring practices are the same as any other business person who wants to stay in business: get the best talent regardless of color or creed. Period. End of story.
I don't give a care what they do or who they are in their own time as long as they produce on mine.

Is it right to restrict the vast majority of business owners who do not practice any form of race discrimination in order to curb the few who do?
The market will take care of those few, if you don't hire the best talent you won't stay in business.

I swear it's like talking to a deaf mute.
DID YOU NOT SEE THE (NOT YOU)?

No one gives a shit about your hiring practices. Just because "you have black friends" doesn't mean that EVERYONE does. So I understand if they put an umbrella over the entire thing.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:36 AM
Do you really do this?

You have no clue.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:38 AM
I'll remember this next time I stop at the gas station on the way home from work, in the bad neighborhood, and have to smile and greet people and hold the door for them, to break the stereotype that any well-dressed white guy is a racist.

You're being facetious but it'd go a long way to breaking that stereotype.

~I'm being dead serious.

markk
07-11-2008, 10:39 AM
You're being facetious but it'd go a long way to breaking that stereotype.

~I'm being dead serious.

I intentionally try to be nice to people when I'm there. I'm not sure it does anything though.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:40 AM
Let's be serious here. You don't know what it's like trying to dance at weddings, or make sure reruns of Friends are being DVR'd correctly.
LMAO

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:41 AM
You have no clue.

Wow, that's nuts.
Do you look like Jules? Do you have a wallet that says 'Bad Mother****er"?

NewChief
07-11-2008, 10:41 AM
Truthfully, I don't feel like giving examples to be judged by you and others of their validity. We feel whites are fed silver spoons from birth while we have to work hard for everything we get. You're (not you) born in the network of the good ol boy. You KNOW the inner circles while more than likely we have to start from scratch as we're usually first generation corporate employees.

All the while you're (not you) bitching about 1-2% of QUALIFIED minorities getting a job over whites.

~The good ol boy network is the reason AA is in place.

To paraphrase Chris Rock:

In any given classroom, there will be a few great students, a few horrible students, and the rest fall in the middle. The problem is that the black C student damned sure isn't going to be heading to the front of any line of job applicants. You know what happens to the white C student? Well, he's the president of the USA.

markk
07-11-2008, 10:41 AM
Do you look like Jules? Do you have a wallet that says 'BAd Mother****er"?

hell i'm white as a MOFO and i want one of those wallets.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:42 AM
I intentionally try to be nice to people when I'm there. I'm not sure it does anything though.

OK so you're not being facetious because you intentionally try to break the stereotype. So you DO know where I'm coming from on some fronts. Now imagine if those black people owned all the businesses you wanted to work for, etc.... what'd be the best way to ensure you get a CHANCE at a job within one of their establishments?

We may be getting somewhere after all.

Silock
07-11-2008, 10:44 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Company

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratz_v._Bollinger

http://www.answers.com/topic/wygant-v-jackson-board-of-education?cat=biz-fin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Steelworkers_v._Weber

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0480_0616_ZS.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Richmond_v._J.A._Croson_Co.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adarand_Constructors_v._Pe%C3%B1a

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:44 AM
I swear it's like talking to a deaf mute.
DID YOU NOT SEE THE (NOT YOU)?

No one gives a shit about your hiring practices. Just because "you have black friends" doesn't mean that EVERYONE does. So I understand if they put an umbrella over the entire thing.

Did you not see the part where I said "same as any other business person?"
I'll thank you not to hang the "I have black friends" label on me until you see me using that lame fall-back.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:45 AM
To paraphrase Chris Rock:

In any given classroom, there will be a few great students, a few horrible students, and the rest fall in the middle. The problem is that the black C student damned sure isn't going to be heading to the front of any line of job applicants. You know what happens to the white C student? Well, he's the president of the USA.

His comedy actually is true.
He touches & nails a few great topics in his comedy.

markk
07-11-2008, 10:46 AM
OK so you're not being facetious because you intentionally try to break the stereotype. So you DO know where I'm coming from on some fronts. Now imagine if those black people owned all the businesses you wanted to work for, etc.... what'd be the best way to ensure you get a CHANCE at a job within one of their establishments?

We may be getting somewhere after all.

The best way to secure a job is to make yourself marketable by obtaining relevant skills and education.

To that end I worked through college (twice) and would be looking for jobs in areas in which I have related experience.

I guess the best way to ensure you get a chance at a job is to be professional and build up your qualifications.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:46 AM
His comedy actually is true.
He touches & nails a few great topics in his comedy.

Yes, I particularly enjoy the bit about going to the ATM. Did you like that one?

Silock
07-11-2008, 10:47 AM
Hate to break it to you, but MOST PEOPLE, white or black, are born with JACK, (like me...Nothing.) and have to work very hard to get anything.
I have lived in many cities in this country, and there is no doubt in my mind that the playing field in areas with opportunities for the everyday man like you, and I(not the top 1%), is level. Under qualified people are given jobs in these fields when is not necessary. There are plenty of qualified minorities to fill these positions, but I don't think they bother narrowing them down because they just know they need x amount of minorities. I'm pretty sure, having lived in South Fla. this long, that it is mandatory for govenrment establishments here to hire x amount of Haitians. Most of them don't give a **** about anything, and there are plenty of people around here that deserve those jobs. Most of them african americans.

You're missing something, though. It's the fact that even though nearly everyone has to work hard, white people are still more likely to be hired simply based on skin color.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:49 AM
You're missing something, though. It's the fact that even though nearly everyone has to work hard, white people are still more likely to be hired simply based on skin color.

Where do you get your data? Sounds like speculation to me.

I've sat in on corporate hiring efforts where a black person was specifically sought out in order to satisfy OFCCP requirements. It felt funny talking with the candidate when you knew they were only being hired to placate a govt. regulation.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:50 AM
Yes, I particularly enjoy the bit about going to the ATM. Did you like that one?

Funny you ask that... that's one of my favorite points in his stand-up because it's SO TRUE.

I'm not ducking that minority personal responsibility is key too. Actually I'm actively for it and have had numerous debates within CP concerning it.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:51 AM
Funny you ask that... that's one of my favorite points in his stand-up because it's SO TRUE.

I'm not ducking that minority personal responsibility is key too. Actually I'm actively for it and have had numerous debates within CP concerning it.

Is it true? I just found it funny. Chris Rock cracks me up big time.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:51 AM
The best way to secure a job is to make yourself marketable by obtaining relevant skills and education.

To that end I worked through college (twice) and would be looking for jobs in areas in which I have related experience.

I guess the best way to ensure you get a chance at a job is to be professional and build up your qualifications.

I've always agreed with that also...
We as minorities have too many options not to succeed today. If we fail it's no one's fault but our own.

Fairplay
07-11-2008, 10:51 AM
We have to work double hard at almost everything from speech to grades to appearance to even working twice as hard to prove :rolleyes:

LMAO

blueballs
07-11-2008, 10:51 AM
Whoever has the money has the power
we will all be answering to Arabie

markk
07-11-2008, 10:52 AM
You're missing something, though. It's the fact that even though nearly everyone has to work hard, white people are still more likely to be hired simply based on skin color.

I have interviewed and made hiring decisions before. Not for degree-required jobs, but for some other types of jobs that are unskilled labor basically.

I can tell you that I make a lot of visual judgments. You can tell a lot about people in the first 10 seconds of an interview just by whether or not they bothered to dress professionally, if they bother to sit up straight, make eye contact with you. If they are well-spoken, call you by your name, etc.

I've interviewed way more people who were total jerkoffs who were white kids from the suburbs. I think that when the black kid came in looking for a job for the summer or part time, he felt like he had to impress or he wasn't going to get it. I hired minority applicants all the time, it wasn't that way, but I felt like maybe that was their attitude.

In any case, I'll fill a role with a person who thinks they are at a disadvantage and will have to work hard and make it over someone who just comes in to an interview wearing everyday clothes, slouching and acting bored, already asking about pay raises and days off. Don't matter what color you are.

I think there's a kernel of truth in that if you meet these people I was talking to, ages 16-25 approximately, the ones who thought they were entitled to something were generally white.

vailpass
07-11-2008, 10:53 AM
Whoever has the money has the power
we will all be answering to Arabie

First you get the money
Then you get the power
All I have in this world
Is my balls, and my word.
Balls and my word.

All I have in this world, ....

(the Ghetto Boys bring it home)

NewChief
07-11-2008, 10:53 AM
Funny you ask that... that's one of my favorite points in his stand-up because it's SO TRUE.

I'm not ducking that minority personal responsibility is key too. Actually I'm actively for it and have had numerous debates within CP concerning it.

I like his distinction between wealthy and rich. To paraphrase again:

Wealthy people open schools and change communities. Rich people can blow all their money with a drug habit and end up singing Superfreak in Old Navy ads.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:54 AM
Is it true? I just found it funny. Chris Rock cracks me up big time.

You mean where he says... that's Not Ted Koppel robbing me at my ATM... That's a N?

Yes that's true. I hate it when our people try to play victim when we're the one's raising hell. Just as they'd done with the Bill Cosby speeches, etc.

I hold US accountable to GROW UP and face reality. The media isn't building it's case against us... it's US.

NewChief
07-11-2008, 10:57 AM
You mean where he says... that's Not Ted Koppel robbing me at my ATM... That's a N?

Yes that's true. I hate it when our people try to play victim when we're the one's raising hell. Just as they'd done with the Bill Cosby speeches, etc.

I hold US accountable to GROW UP and face reality. The media isn't building it's case against us... it's US.

I think he's talking about the part where a therapist should come on the ATM at 3am whenever you try to withdraw money, because nothing good is going to come of it. Then he goes into the bit about how the ATM won't even talk to you unless you have $20 in the bank and talks about the walk of shame up to the teller to withdraw 8 bucks and change from your account and the teller just pulling it out of her pocket and handing it to you.

And hell, there's no race involved in that. When I was a poor, stupid white college student, I lived that scenario repeatedly.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:57 AM
I think that when the black kid came in looking for a job for the summer or part time, he felt like he had to impress or he wasn't going to get it.

Hence...

"We have to work double hard."
"Whites (in general) are born with silver spoons".

Thanks for your example. It's valid for all levels of emplyoment.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 10:58 AM
I think he's talking about the part where a therapist should come on the ATM at 3am whenever you try to withdraw money, because nothing good is going to come of it. Then he goes into the bit about how the ATM won't even talk to you unless you have $20 in the bank and talks about the walk of shame up to the teller to withdraw 8 bucks and change from your account and the teller just pulling it out of her pocket and handing it to you.

Oh... vaguely remember that one.
I just remember his political points.
Will have to revisit.

Silock
07-11-2008, 10:58 AM
Where do you get your data? Sounds like speculation to me.

www.bls.gov

It's funny -- the gov't actually overhires minorities compared to their % of population in the US. The general labor market, though, is well below.

I'll have to dig around my materials from last semester, but we did a pretty in-depth study on the hiring practices of public vs. private sectors.

<- Public Administration major

Donger
07-11-2008, 10:59 AM
Hence...

"We have to work double hard."
"Whites (in general) are born with silver spoons".

Thanks for your example.

But, the kid in this example didn't KNOW that he had to do that, right? He assumed that the white guy interviewing him expected him to doubly impressive because he's black?

Silock
07-11-2008, 10:59 AM
I have interviewed and made hiring decisions before. Not for degree-required jobs, but for some other types of jobs that are unskilled labor basically.

I can tell you that I make a lot of visual judgments. You can tell a lot about people in the first 10 seconds of an interview just by whether or not they bothered to dress professionally, if they bother to sit up straight, make eye contact with you. If they are well-spoken, call you by your name, etc.

I've interviewed way more people who were total jerkoffs who were white kids from the suburbs. I think that when the black kid came in looking for a job for the summer or part time, he felt like he had to impress or he wasn't going to get it. I hired minority applicants all the time, it wasn't that way, but I felt like maybe that was their attitude.

In any case, I'll fill a role with a person who thinks they are at a disadvantage and will have to work hard and make it over someone who just comes in to an interview wearing everyday clothes, slouching and acting bored, already asking about pay raises and days off. Don't matter what color you are.

I think there's a kernel of truth in that if you meet these people I was talking to, ages 16-25 approximately, the ones who thought they were entitled to something were generally white.

That's fantastic anecdotal evidence, and it's certainly interesting to note, but it's not what happens in the majority of cases.

Sully
07-11-2008, 10:59 AM
This has turned into a GREAT thread.
Keep it going.

DaneMcCloud
07-11-2008, 11:00 AM
You're missing something, though. It's the fact that even though nearly everyone has to work hard, white people are still more likely to be hired simply based on skin color.

While I feel that racism in America certainly exists and that programs like AA are necessary, I don't feel that this statement is necessarily true everywhere in the US.

At my previous job, we had more than 40 people in our music division (a division of Paramount at the time) yet we had six Filipinos, one japanese, one from El Salvador, three Mexican, five African Americans, one Russian, so on and so forth. It was a very racially diverse mix and that was even more prevalent on the Paramount lot.

California (and Los Angeles, in particular) is very racially diverse and I don't think that race is seen as a "liability". At least, that hasn't been my experience or my wife's (and she's Asian).

Everyone has to work hard, regardless of skin color. The "Good Ol' Boy" network still exists in certain circles but I think it's just as difficult for whites, Asians, Hispanics or AA's to break into that circle. And if you DO want to break into that circle, you'd better have an extremely high-level college education (most likely grad school from an Ivy League or Stanford-type school) to even be considered for such a post.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:02 AM
But, the kid in this example didn't KNOW that he had to do that, right? He assumed that the white guy interviewing him expected him to doubly impressive because he's black?

Yeah. Whatever. :rolleyes:

Silock
07-11-2008, 11:04 AM
While I feel that racism in America certainly exists and that programs like AA are necessary, I don't feel that this statement is necessarily true everywhere in the US.

Of course not. There will always be differences for every part of the country. However, because of the need for fair and equitable policies, it has to be applied everywhere.

Iowanian
07-11-2008, 11:05 AM
Wouldn't it be better to know that a person got a position as a result of his/her qualifications instead of ethnicity or gender?

Equal outcomes can't be the end goal, equal opportunities can be and it would be up to the person to make the most of his/her opportunity.

I don't really want in the middle of this discussion, however....

2 years ago, I interviewed for a good job, and was told by the director that I was hands down the best applicant and had several years of better experience than any other applicant. He called back a week later and said that he was told by HR that he was to "hire an affirmative action qualifier" and wasn't going to be able to offer me the position.

I know my dad is routinely told by HR to diversify his staff in an ag related business. He said he's hired every black and latino that have ever applied for one of his positions. Zero. In the midwest, in an ag related industry, and corporate from a coast growls about the diversity. Women and a couple of token gheys will have to do.

In any job, the best candidate should win. period.



That said....if the statements in the thread starter are true, its a sad reality of how hypersensitive our society is becoming.

I heard that next year the 4th of July and Cinco de Mayo were being outlawed as discriminatory holidays....they discriminate against people who can only count to 3.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:05 AM
The "Good Ol' Boy" network still exists in certain circles but I think it's just as difficult for whites, Asians, Hispanics or AA's to break into that circle. And if you DO want to break into that circle, you'd better have an extremely high-level college education (most likely grad school from an Ivy League or Stanford-type school) to even be considered for such a post.

Your statements hold truth... But since the Good Ol' Boy network is mostly made up of an inner circle of white males, who do you think will be more apt to get IN the network?

Donger
07-11-2008, 11:06 AM
Yeah. Whatever. :rolleyes:

That's it? Is what I wrote not correct?

vailpass
07-11-2008, 11:07 AM
www.bls.gov

It's funny -- the gov't actually overhires minorities compared to their % of population in the US. The general labor market, though, is well below.

I'll have to dig around my materials from last semester, but we did a pretty in-depth study on the hiring practices of public vs. private sectors.

<- Public Administration major


Nicely done, good to see you are getting something from your classwork beside a grade.
As always, the truth is closest when you mix statistics with on-the-ground experience.
Good luck on your PA major, the country could use a whole lot of qualified PAs.

markk
07-11-2008, 11:08 AM
Hence...

"We have to work double hard."
"Whites (in general) are born with silver spoons".

Thanks for your example. It's valid for all levels of emplyoment.

Let me rephrase that.

I think they had been TOLD that the white dude who interviewed them was going to be a racist, so they had to outperform everyone else just to be considered. Even though that was positively not the truth.

They came in with that misconception. But I like people who feel like they have something to prove. I hope everyone who ever works for me feels that way.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:08 AM
That's it? Is what I wrote not correct?

It's really hard to take you serious because you do your question asking tactic on everyone like you're really trying to understand.

Try making your point and then I can honestly respond... Stop asking me open ended ?s. You're not my shrink. I know what the problem is. It's not up to you to get it out of me.

Silock
07-11-2008, 11:11 AM
Nicely done, good to see you are getting something from your classwork beside a grade.
As always, the truth is closest when you mix statistics with on-the-ground experience.
Good luck on your PA major, the country could use a whole lot of qualified PAs.

Yeah, my professor for the class actually headed up one of the departments at the Bureau of Labor Statistics in D.C., so he had a ton of stuff for us.

I think the best thing I'm getting out of all my classes is that anything you want to know can probably be found on a government website somewhere LMAO. They keep records and statistics on freaking EVERYTHING. It's nutty.

Thanks for the well-wishes on PA, but I'm unfortunately not going to stay in that major. I'm doing undergrad for PA and then going to get my MBA. The public sector just isn't competitive enough with wages (although the job security is top-notch). I'll definitely have to start out in the public sector somewhere, though.

markk
07-11-2008, 11:11 AM
California (and Los Angeles, in particular) is very racially diverse and I don't think that race is seen as a "liability". At least, that hasn't been my experience or my wife's (and she's Asian).

Well, let's strip this down a little bit. I don't think anyone here thinks that all races other than white male caucasian are disadvantageous. I think what most people are saying is that they feel black people are much, much worse off than any other race in particular when it comes to finding work simply because of that.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:11 AM
Let me rephrase that.

I think they had been TOLD that the white dude who interviewed them was going to be a racist, so they had to outperform everyone else just to be considered. Even though that was positively not the truth.

They came in with that misconception. But I like people who feel like they have something to prove. I hope everyone who ever works for me feels that way.

No they've been told to pull your freaking pants up... Stop wearing white t-shirts... speak clearly and don't use slang... smile... Say yes Don't shake your head or yeah or yup... wear a suit & tie... no baggy clothes... cut your hair... etc.

We're not taught that the hiring person is racists... we're taught that we have to bring our A game in order to impress (the white guy) so that he'll know we're not the thug but instead we're competent enough to do the job.

Donger
07-11-2008, 11:12 AM
It's really hard to take you serious because you do your question asking tactic on everyone like you're really trying to understand.

Try making your point and then I can honestly respond... Stop asking me open ended ?s. You're not my shrink. I know what the problem is. It's not up to you to get it out of me.

I haven't asked you a single question that is open ended. I've been asking you for your opinions because I do want to understand. If you don't want to help educate me, fine.

Donger
07-11-2008, 11:14 AM
No they've been told to pull your freaking pants up... Stop wearing white t-shirts... speak clearly and don't use slang... smile... Say yes Don't shake your head or yeah or yup... wear a suit & tie... no baggy clothes... cut your hair... etc.

We're not taught that the hiring person is racists... we're taught that we have to bring our A game in order to impress (the white guy) so that he'll know we're not the thug but instead we're competent enough to do the job.

I think that would be good advice for any applicant, regardless of skin color.

Again, it seems like you are saying that blacks assume that whites are racist. Is that correct or not?

RNR
07-11-2008, 11:14 AM
Hence...

"We have to work double hard."
"Whites (in general) are born with silver spoons".

Bullshit

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:14 AM
I haven't asked you a single question that is open ended. I've been asking you for your opinions because I do want to understand. If you don't want to help educate me, fine.

K... I'll give it a shot.
Just curious... do you have an opinion in any of this?

What are you really trying to find out?
~ Lunch time (1 hr)

Iowanian
07-11-2008, 11:15 AM
Can someone get me Russel Simmons' address?

I would like to apply for Def Comedy Jam. I kid.



I've never known wutamess to be a supporter of the handout. For the most part, I've always respected his opinion in these discussions and thought he was very responsible and level headed.

Donger
07-11-2008, 11:16 AM
K... I'll give it a shot.
Just curious... do you have an opinion in any of this?

What are you really trying to find out?
~ Lunch time (1 hr)

I think my questions have been very straightforward. Do you want me to repeat them?

vailpass
07-11-2008, 11:16 AM
Yeah, my professor for the class actually headed up one of the departments at the Bureau of Labor Statistics in D.C., so he had a ton of stuff for us.

I think the best thing I'm getting out of all my classes is that anything you want to know can probably be found on a government website somewhere LMAO. They keep records and statistics on freaking EVERYTHING. It's nutty.

Thanks for the well-wishes on PA, but I'm unfortunately not going to stay in that major. I'm doing undergrad for PA and then going to get my MBA. The public sector just isn't competitive enough with wages (although the job security is top-notch). I'll definitely have to start out in the public sector somewhere, though.


You say true. Too damn bad, strong PAs in the public sector appear on the way to becoming a rarity.
Still, who can blame you? Keep your head down and finish if you can, go all the way through the MBA without taking a year off.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:17 AM
I think that would be good advice for any applicant, regardless of skin color.

Again, it seems like you are saying that blacks assume that whites are racist. Is that correct or not?

No... we're saying that they're more apt to hire within their own (which is somewhat human nature). I'd be more likely to hire someone that looks like me. For all of you saying you'd have no bias I tip my hat to you.

It's not that I'm racist... it's that the cultural boundaries aren't there. It makes sense (racist or not) which is why AA would curtail it.

markk
07-11-2008, 11:21 AM
We're not taught that the hiring person is racists... we're taught that we have to bring our A game in order to impress (the white guy) so that he'll know we're not the thug but instead we're competent enough to do the job.

I see that as a positive thing. This was a retail job so anyone hired would have access to inventory and money regularly, and with little oversight frankly. I wouldn't have hired someone I wouldn't trust leaving my wallet on my desk while they were sitting in there.

it's kind of annoying that people would think I can't tell the difference between a thug and a good young adult through the course of the interview. If someone was a definite no, you know that within the first 5 minutes. but if that misconception gets them to take the position seriously I'll live with it I guess.

DaneMcCloud
07-11-2008, 11:23 AM
Your statements hold truth... But since the Good Ol' Boy network is mostly made up of an inner circle of white males, who do you think will be more apt to get IN the network?

That's a very difficult question for me to answer because I'm not part of that network (and I'd never want to be - I don't care for that segment of our society).

But I think we can all agree that with each passing year, the barriers are being broken down a little further. As more and more minorities are attending college, there's more interaction and fraternizing of the people of different races, which in turn leads to more opportunities for everyone. As well as the breaking down of previous stereotypes.

Silock
07-11-2008, 11:23 AM
You say true. Too damn bad, strong PAs in the public sector appear on the way to becoming a rarity.
Still, who can blame you? Keep your head down and finish if you can, go all the way through the MBA without taking a year off.

There is some indication that the gov't is becoming more lenient with its pay grades to stay somewhat competitive, so who knows . . . I might do that. It really depends on how my wife's therapy practice is going as to what sector I stay in. I'm definitely not taking any more time off. I'm already 27 and took too much time off to begin with. I just hope I'm out of school by the time I'm 30, but it's not looking too likely at the moment LMAO

Thanks again :thumb:

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:28 AM
That's a very difficult question for me to answer because I'm not part of that network (and I'd never want to be - I don't care for that segment of our society).

But I think we can all agree that with each passing year, the barriers are being broken down a little further. As more and more minorities are attending college, there's more interaction and fraternizing of the people of different races, which in turn leads to more opportunities for everyone. As well as the breaking down of previous stereotypes.

Very true... until the playing fields are more level to where we don't need AA then I'm all for AA. (eating lunch from home)

markk
07-11-2008, 11:29 AM
K... I'll give it a shot.
Just curious... do you have an opinion in any of this?


I think people are inclined to be racists if they are unsuccessful and haven't put a lot of effort into trying to be. That goes equally for the high school dropouts in the inner city and in the trailer park too. It's a lot easier to blame other people than to examine ourselves. That's just how the human mind works.

You can succeed in the world if you want to. Yeah, some people face barriers that aren't fair. Some people don't have two feet and some people are blind, some people just aren't that smart. Some people don't have athlete's bodies and some people aren't good at math. For some people it's really difficult to learn a foreign language and some people have bad backs and can't do heavy lifting. Some people aren't mechanically inclined and some people aren't computer inclined.

Some poeple aren't perfect at everything. It's madness for us to claim that everyone is equal. Everyone has disadvantages unique to themselves. Some have more disadvantages than others. One of my best friends has been without sight since the age of 1. He could be disabled but instead he's gone through college and is out making a salary I wish I made.

The world will always be that way. You can complain about your circumstances, fair or unfair, or you can change them.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:31 AM
But, the kid in this example didn't KNOW that he had to do that, right? He assumed that the white guy interviewing him expected him to doubly impressive because he's black?


Yes Donger... he KNEW he had to do that in order to get the job.
(not saying MarKK) But if the black guy came in with the same clothes the W guys would've the hiring manager would just go with hiring by association.

It's wrong but it's understandable and the way of the world.

RNR
07-11-2008, 11:31 AM
I think people are inclined to be racists if they are unsuccessful and haven't put a lot of effort into trying to be. That goes equally for the high school dropouts in the inner city and in the trailer park too. It's a lot easier to blame other people than to examine ourselves. That's just how the human mind works.

You can succeed in the world if you want to. Yeah, some people face barriers that aren't fair. Some people don't have two feet and some people are blind, some people just aren't that smart. Some people don't have athlete's bodies and some people aren't good at math. For some people it's really difficult to learn a foreign language and some people have bad backs and can't do heavy lifting. Some people aren't mechanically inclined and some people aren't computer inclined.

Some poeple aren't perfect at everything. It's madness for us to claim that everyone is equal. Everyone has disadvantages unique to themselves. Some have more disadvantages than others. One of my best friends has been without sight since the age of 1. He could be disabled but instead he's gone through college and is out making a salary I wish I made.

The world will always be that way. You can complain about your circumstances, fair or unfair, or you can change them.

I can not rep you again or I would.

DaneMcCloud
07-11-2008, 11:32 AM
No... we're saying that they're more apt to hire within their own (which is somewhat human nature). I'd be more likely to hire someone that looks like me. For all of you saying you'd have no bias I tip my hat to you.

It's not that I'm racist... it's that the cultural boundaries aren't there. It makes sense (racist or not) which is why AA would curtail it.

I can tell you with complete honesty that I've never hired on the basis of skin color.

I directly hired two African-American females, two Hispanics (man & woman), one white Jewish male, two Whites (male & female) and two Asian females during a 5-year stint and was involved in the hiring of many more non-whites via committee.

My criteria for hiring:

1. Is this person going to stay in the position for more than a year and is it worth my while to train them? Or is this job just a springboard?
2. Can this person handle the job (i.e. intelligence and aptitude)
3. Can this person handle stress?
4. Does this person have a passion for the job or is it just a "job"?


Once those things have been determined, I hire who will best fill the position, regardless of ethnicity.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:34 AM
The world will always be that way. You can complain about your circumstances, fair or unfair, or you can change them.

I agree but I'm not complaining. I've always said that personal responsibility is the most important thing for ANY human being. Minorities shouldn't depend on AA for a handout, but it's our responsibility to educate ourselves in order to even be considered for employment.

~ Not a fan of the handout. Just AA until the playing field is more level.

Donger
07-11-2008, 11:34 AM
Yes Donger... he KNEW he had to do that in order to get the job.
(not saying MarKK) But if the black guy came in with the same clothes the W guys would've the hiring manager would just go with hiring by association.

It's wrong but it's understandable and the way of the world.

I really hope that I never have to interview with a black guy. I'd have no f*cking clue what to do.

Anyway, I appreciate your efforts. Thanks.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:37 AM
I can tell you with complete honesty that I've never hired on the basis of skin color.

I directly hired two African-American females, two Hispanics (man & woman), one white Jewish male, two Whites (male & female) and two Asian females during a 5-year stint and was involved in the hiring of many more non-whites via committee.

My criteria for hiring:

1. Is this person going to stay in the position for more than a year and is it worth my while to train them? Or is this job just a springboard?
2. Can this person handle the job (i.e. intelligence and aptitude)
3. Can this person handle stress?
4. Does this person have a passion for the job or is it just a "job"?


Once those things have been determined, I hire who will best fill the position, regardless of ethnicity.

Well Dane... AA isn't intended for you... It's the other 95% of possible (racist) employers.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:41 AM
I really hope that I never have to interview with a black guy. I'd have no f*cking clue what to do.

Anyway, I appreciate your efforts. Thanks.

See that's why we have to "impress". We're no different than a white guy. Why would you interview any different?

Actually I have a small story...
I was interviewing for a Tech Support position for a school in Noblesville Indiana... One of the first things out of the hiring guys mouth was, "You do know that we have no black students... How do you feel about that?" Probably no blacks in the county.

I didn't get the job and I'm sure it was because of that. Did I have a suit? Probably so. But I really don't care so to hell with it.

Just to show you that AA is needed.

RNR
07-11-2008, 11:41 AM
I really hope that I never have to interview with a black guy. I'd have no f*cking clue what to do.

Anyway, I appreciate your efforts. Thanks.

Start off buy saying you are sorry for being white. Then hire him rather he desesves the job or not. Go home feeling good because you struck a blow against racism. :thumb:

Pablo
07-11-2008, 11:46 AM
RACE WAR!!!!

Donger
07-11-2008, 11:46 AM
See that's why we have to "impress". We're no different than a white guy. Why would you interview any different?

Actually I have a small story...
I was interviewing for a Tech Support position for a school in Noblesville Indiana... One of the first things out of the hiring guys mouth was, "You do know that we have no black students... How do you feel about that?" Probably no blacks in the county.

I didn't get the job and I'm sure it was because of that. Did I have a suit? Probably so. But I really don't care so to hell with it.

Just to show you that AA is needed.

I'm not following you.

You seem to be saying that a black guy interviewing with a white guy needs to act more "white" in order to get the job because of the stereotypes of blacks that white people have.

Is that correct?

markk
07-11-2008, 11:47 AM
Well Dane... AA isn't intended for you... It's the other 95% of possible (racist) employers.

do you really think 95% of people who make hiring decisions are racist?

i think talk like that is part of what sets this discussion back.

bishop_74
07-11-2008, 11:49 AM
Your statements hold truth... But since the Good Ol' Boy network is mostly made up of an inner circle of white males, who do you think will be more apt to get IN the network?

I would also venture to say that I have the exact same shot of getting in to the Good Ol' Boy network as you. None whatsoever. It's the same circle as Rock Stars and Movie Stars. You can be talented, but you better know someone to get your foot in the door. Those groups do not represent the majority of jobs that are available.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:50 AM
do you really think 95% of people who make hiring decisions are racist?

i think talk like that is part of what sets this discussion back.

Notice the "possible" and then the (Racist) in parenthesis.
Although, we tend to assume (possible racist) until proven otherwise.

bishop_74
07-11-2008, 11:50 AM
See that's why we have to "impress". We're no different than a white guy. Why would you interview any different?

Actually I have a small story...
I was interviewing for a Tech Support position for a school in Noblesville Indiana... One of the first things out of the hiring guys mouth was, "You do know that we have no black students... How do you feel about that?" Probably no blacks in the county.

I didn't get the job and I'm sure it was because of that. Did I have a suit? Probably so. But I really don't care so to hell with it.

Just to show you that AA is needed.

Civil suit waiting to happen. That is really wrong.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 11:53 AM
I'm not following you.

You seem to be saying that a black guy interviewing with a white guy needs to act more "white" in order to get the job because of the stereotypes of blacks that white people have.

Is that correct?


After I posted I reread your post and then I realized you were talking about if you'd have to interview with a black hiring mgr. My post was invalid.

However, my error brings up a great point, how would you feel about your chances interviewing with a black hiring mgr and you and the other (black) candidate were equally qualified?

markk
07-11-2008, 11:55 AM
After I posted I reread your posted and then I realized you were talking about if you'd have to interview with a black hiring mgr. My post was invalid.

However, my error brings up a great point, how would you feel about your chances interviewing with a black hiring mgr and you and the other (black) candidate were equally qualified?

I'd feel like I was at a disadvantage, honestly.

But qualification is only one part of it. There could always be something in the interview that won it for him and lost it for you. He could have mentioned a certain skill he had, or displayed a better sense of humor or personable qualities... no two people are really ever "equally qualified".

Donger
07-11-2008, 11:59 AM
After I posted I reread your post and then I realized you were talking about if you'd have to interview with a black hiring mgr. My post was invalid.

However, my error brings up a great point, how would you feel about your chances interviewing with a black hiring mgr and you and the other (black) candidate were equally qualified?

I would be confident that I would emerge victorious.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 12:01 PM
I'd feel like I was at a disadvantage, honestly.

I truly admire your honesty.
Now that's how we feel all the time. But it's not 1 (black) to 1 (white) it's usually 1 (black) to many (whites).
That's why AA is still needed.

~ Now we're getting some where.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 12:01 PM
I would be confident that I would emerge victorious.


Why so confident?

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 12:02 PM
You're being facetious but it'd go a long way to breaking that stereotype.

~I'm being dead serious.

But there are some places that whites aren't safe in at 2 or 3 in the morning. Is it racists to think that, or is it because they hear on the news of people getting shot because they took a wrong turn in the wrong part of town?

I intentionally try to be nice to people when I'm there. I'm not sure it does anything though.

I would like to think that I am nice to everyone, but I know sometimes that when I hold open a door for a woman to pass through, she looks at me as if I was thinking that she wasn't capable of doing it herself. Sometimes people are nice just to be nice and there isn't any other motive behind and I think that really ticks some people off.

His comedy actually is true.
He touches & nails a few great topics in his comedy.

Everyone needs to take more responsiblity for their own actions and be subject to the punishment as a result of their actions.

But, the kid in this example didn't KNOW that he had to do that, right? He assumed that the white guy interviewing him expected him to doubly impressive because he's black?

But I am sure that in the kids house, it wasn't taught that the man was only there to keep him down. For the problem to be stopped it takes work on both sides of the issue.


I don't really want in the middle of this discussion, however....

2 years ago, I interviewed for a good job, and was told by the director that I was hands down the best applicant and had several years of better experience than any other applicant. He called back a week later and said that he was told by HR that he was to "hire an affirmative action qualifier" and wasn't going to be able to offer me the position.

I know my dad is routinely told by HR to diversify his staff in an ag related business. He said he's hired every black and latino that have ever applied for one of his positions. Zero. In the midwest, in an ag related industry, and corporate from a coast growls about the diversity. Women and a couple of token gheys will have to do.

In any job, the best candidate should win. period.



That said....if the statements in the thread starter are true, its a sad reality of how hypersensitive our society is becoming.

I heard that next year the 4th of July and Cinco de Mayo were being outlawed as discriminatory holidays....they discriminate against people who can only count to 3.

I am sure there are a lot more instances of this then people would like to admit, just like the opposite though. :banghead:

Donger
07-11-2008, 12:02 PM
Why so confident?

I'm a very confident person.

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 12:09 PM
wutamess,

How do you feel individuality comes into play, how one dresses, how one presents themselves in both verbal and non-verbal ways.

Should one be able to not hire someone because of what is perceived as improper dress and/or communication skills?

It is generally understood that there is some form of conformity in the business environment, does the hate for "uncle tom's" prevent that from happening?

I can understand how you may feel like a lot of people have jumped on you in this thread, but it has been very enlightening, so please don't take offense to my previous questions.

Micjones
07-11-2008, 12:15 PM
Just curious. What is the percentage?

As of 2003, the Gallup polls have 59% of the American public in favor of AA.

Fairplay
07-11-2008, 12:17 PM
Hence...

"We have to work double hard."
"Whites (in general) are born with silver spoons".



Again........LMAO

Inspector
07-11-2008, 12:20 PM
I work for one of largest corporations on planet Earth. Our executive ranks are full of folks from all ethnic backgrounds. My boss is a minority. The baloney about the majority of executives being a particular race is just that - baloney. Not in my company.

Years ago I worked for a company that had a very good promotion opportunity that I was in line for. I had the experience and skills. I was told I could not have the job due to affirmative actions (regardless of the fact that I am a minority). And this was told to my face. I would not get a promotion because of my (perceived) race.

Hiring or not hiring based on race is wrong and 2 wrongs don't make a right. Ever.

It's difficult to read about the extra steps some people say they must take to get employment when my experiences over the past 30 years is so opposite of what's being reported here.

Everyone is a culmination of their own life's experiences. Mine tell me that AA is pure and simple racism that some will try to create a justification for. For us living in the real world, that simply aint gonna fly.

bogey
07-11-2008, 12:21 PM
Well Dane... AA isn't intended for you... It's the other 95% of possible (racist) employers.

Do you honestly feel in your heart of hearts that 95% of white employers are possibly racist?

wutamess
07-11-2008, 12:23 PM
wutamess,

How do you feel individuality comes into play, how one dresses, how one presents themselves in both verbal and non-verbal ways.

Should one be able to not hire someone because of what is perceived as improper dress and/or communication skills?

It is generally understood that there is some form of conformity in the business environment, does the hate for "uncle tom's" prevent that from happening?

I can understand how you may feel like a lot of people have jumped on you in this thread, but it has been very enlightening, so please don't take offense to my previous questions.

I'm (an old) 31... I'm already set in my ways so I never take anything on here to heart. I'm responding in order to educate or enlighten. Not to take any of this to heart.

As far as individuality. The people that aren't conforming are usually foreigners. They can be prejudged too and DO fall under the AA umbrella. If that's what you're asking.

Fairplay
07-11-2008, 12:23 PM
I really hope that I never have to interview with a black guy. I'd have no f*cking clue what to do.




Learn ebonics for starters.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 12:23 PM
Do you honestly feel in your heart of hearts that 95% of white employers are possibly racist?

Read #166

wutamess
07-11-2008, 12:28 PM
I work for one of largest corporations on planet Earth. Our executive ranks are full of folks from all ethnic backgrounds. My boss is a minority. The baloney about the majority of executives being a particular race is just that - baloney. Not in my company.

Years ago I worked for a company that had a very good promotion opportunity that I was in line for. I had the experience and skills. I was told I could not have the job due to affirmative actions (regardless of the fact that I am a minority). And this was told to my face. I would not get a promotion because of my (perceived) race.

Hiring or not hiring based on race is wrong and 2 wrongs don't make a right. Ever.

It's difficult to read about the extra steps some people say they must take to get employment when my experiences over the past 30 years is so opposite of what's being reported here.

Everyone is a culmination of their own life's experiences. Mine tell me that AA is pure and simple racism that some will try to create a justification for. For us living in the real world, that simply aint gonna fly.

Actually, I'm glad you're in here... I actually envy you but do have some things to negate.

You bounced back just fine (that's why I'm envious). But the chances of that person that didn't get that opp may not have bounced back as well because of the limit of opportunities because of race.

Just because your corp is diverse doesn't mean that they all are. Especially true for a WORLD corp. We're far behind the world when it comes to race relations.

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 12:29 PM
Well Dane... AA isn't intended for you... It's the other 95% of possible (racist) employers.

So how does one assuming that one is a racist, even though it isn't proven that they are helping the situation.

You have the equipment to be a rapist, but are you.

Women have the equipment to become prostitutes, but are all of them.


I will give anyone a chance, but if they screw it up it becomes a problem.

wutamess
07-11-2008, 12:32 PM
So how does one assuming that one is a racist, even though it isn't proven that they are helping the situation.

You have the equipment to be a rapist, but are you.

Women have the equipment to become prostitutes, but are all of them.


I will give anyone a chance, but if they screw it up that is there problem.

bk: You're taking this personal. I'm just telling you the way a minority sees white America. We're immediately skeptical until we know more about you. I guess you're stereotyped or prejudged as being racist because of our history's past.

Is that a bad assumption just because YOU aren't?

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 12:33 PM
...Everyone is a culmination of their own life's experiences. Mine tell me that AA is pure and simple racism that some will try to create a justification for. For us living in the real world, that simply aint gonna fly.


A lot of what people have to overcome is internal, not external. People can maintain thier individuality and still be successful, as long as they make up their mind they want to do so.

bogey
07-11-2008, 12:36 PM
Read #166

How is that different from someone assuming black people are possibly unable to do the job just because they're black?

bkkcoh
07-11-2008, 12:38 PM
bk: You're taking this personal. I'm just telling you the way a minority sees white America. We're immediately skeptical until we know more about you. I guess you're stereotyped or prejudged as being racist because of our history's past.

Is that a bad assumption just because YOU aren't?

I honestly am not taking it personally.

Skepticism isn't a bad thing if it is replaced, but I would agree that sometimes it is replaced, but with bad instead of good.

But that is exactly the problem with stereotypes, They at one time were based in truth and then take a long time to be reveresed or whittled down.

DaneMcCloud
07-11-2008, 12:45 PM
bk: You're taking this personal. I'm just telling you the way a minority sees white America. We're immediately skeptical until we know more about you. I guess you're stereotyped or prejudged as being racist because of our history's past.

Is that a bad assumption just because YOU aren't?

No offense, Man, but that's a pretty big leap (All Whites = Racist until proven otherwise).

I'm 3rd Generation Italian-American. My great grandfather came from Sicily to America (twice, actually) in the early 1900's. As you're probably aware, Italians were treated poorly and looked at as second class citizens for decades. But my family in particular had no associations with America's past - no slave owners, no Civil War, no nothing. As a family, we weren't raised to dislike (let alone hate) anyone of different ethnicity (though in all honesty, there had been a dislike of the Greeks among the older Italians).

Basically, my point is that while you may be justified in thinking that every white man is a racist because of America's past, you also may be unfairly categorizing a large portion of people who don't have a racist thought and have never had racists thoughts.

One a side note, when my parents were last in town, I took my Pop to see a Dodgers game. They just happened to be playing the Cubs. It was very nice to see two MLB ballclubs managed by Italian-Americans (Torre & Pinella). That's certainly something you wouldn't have seen 70 years ago. And while that may not have much significance to you, it's nice to see that things have changed.

Inspector
07-11-2008, 12:46 PM
Actually, I'm glad you're in here... I actually envy you but do have some things to negate.

You bounced back just fine (that's why I'm envious). But the chances of that person that didn't get that opp may not have bounced back as well because of the limit of opportunities because of race.

Just because your corp is diverse doesn't mean that they all are. Especially true for a WORLD corp. We're far behind the world when it comes to race relations.


Just so I'm not misinterpreted......I was turned down for a promotion that I should have received because my employer had to hire someone off the street who was black. I was told to train them. I was discriminated against because my employer did not think I was a minority. Discrimination is never the right thing to do regardless of skin color.

I have never made an issue about my ethnic background. I've never let it mean anything. (Besides, it was just too big a hassle for my particular ethnic background anyway)

When one of my kids was about 4-5 years old he became aware that some people made judgements based on anothers skin color. So one day he asks "Dad, are black people bad?" I held up a yellow crayon and a green crayon and I asked him which one was the better color. He said "Neither, they're just different".

Kids can sometimes figure it our a lot better than grown ups.

Donger
07-11-2008, 12:48 PM
The most racist people? Old, Asian women. Holy sh*t.

Beerfund
07-11-2008, 12:53 PM
" A man can't earn a decent wage in this town? Want me to shine your shoes? Want me to smile at you? Cause you definatly won't let me deal the cards, might as well call it white jack"

siberian khatru
07-11-2008, 12:56 PM
It was very nice to see two MLB ballclubs managed by Italian-Americans (Torre & Pinella).

Heh, FYI: Piniella is of Spanish descent. :)

Simply Red
07-11-2008, 01:07 PM
Should I get rid of my Blackberry?

no, i'd keep it. I love mine to

seclark
07-11-2008, 01:08 PM
It was very nice to see two MLB ballclubs managed by Italian-Americans (Torre & Pinella). That's certainly something you wouldn't have seen 70 years ago. And while that may not have much significance to you, it's nice to see that things have changed.

1963 player/coach

beach tribe
07-11-2008, 02:40 PM
While I feel that racism in America certainly exists and that programs like AA are necessary, I don't feel that this statement is necessarily true everywhere in the US.

At my previous job, we had more than 40 people in our music division (a division of Paramount at the time) yet we had six Filipinos, one japanese, one from El Salvador, three Mexican, five African Americans, one Russian, so on and so forth. It was a very racially diverse mix and that was even more prevalent on the Paramount lot.

California (and Los Angeles, in particular) is very racially diverse and I don't think that race is seen as a "liability". At least, that hasn't been my experience or my wife's (and she's Asian).

Everyone has to work hard, regardless of skin color. The "Good Ol' Boy" network still exists in certain circles but I think it's just as difficult for whites, Asians, Hispanics or AA's to break into that circle. And if you DO want to break into that circle, you'd better have an extremely high-level college education (most likely grad school from an Ivy League or Stanford-type school) to even be considered for such a post.
Where I'm from, there are 0 opportunities, and people of color would probably have a much harder time getting one of the better jobs.

Where I live, there are limitless opportunities and I really believe that it makes no difference what race you are when it comes to getting a job. None.
It has everything to do with your qualifications, and experience. (unless you are Haitian)

Actually you have a much better shot at some really great jobs, if you are a Spanish speaking American, which most whites are not.

DaneMcCloud
07-11-2008, 03:06 PM
Where I live, there are limitless opportunities and I really believe that it makes no difference what race you are when it comes to getting a job. None.
It has everything to do with your qualifications, and experience. (unless you are Haitian)

Actually you have a much better shot at some really great jobs, if you are a Spanish speaking American, which most whites are not.

I figured he was referring to ("he" being Wutamess) were jobs that required a college degree or specific skill set. It's highly unlikely an an uneducated man would rise to the rank of CEO, let alone be a "Good Ol' Boy", unless that person started their own business and turned it into an empire. But even then I would think along the way, that person would realize that educated people of color are just as qualified as those that are white.

Fairplay
07-11-2008, 03:23 PM
Generally other races that come into the U.S. seem to make there way into the work life in one way or other. I think blacks get pissed because everyone is passing them up as a whole. And blame whitey for holding them down. Truth.

beach tribe
07-12-2008, 01:38 AM
I figured he was referring to ("he" being Wutamess) were jobs that required a college degree or specific skill set. It's highly unlikely an an uneducated man would rise to the rank of CEO, let alone be a "Good Ol' Boy", unless that person started their own business and turned it into an empire. But even then I would think along the way, that person would realize that educated people of color are just as qualified as those that are white.

From my experience, I have learned that anyone smart enough to have built a successful corporation, is not dumb enough to let race come between them, and the best opportunity for advancement, of the gold mine, that they have worked so hard to build.

DaneMcCloud
07-12-2008, 02:15 AM
From my experience, I have learned that anyone smart enough to have built a successful corporation, is not dumb enough to let race come between them, and the best opportunity for advancement, of the gold mine, that they have worked so hard to build.

Then we're in agreement because that's exactly what I implied using different words.

beach tribe
07-12-2008, 02:44 AM
Then we're in agreement because that's exactly what I implied using different words.

Yeah, in a reread, there 's no doubt, that the two statements, are essentially the same.

I was only giving an honest outlook on the situation.

Smed1065
07-12-2008, 02:52 AM
Donger, you're not black... you don't know how you have to have a smile on your face when you walk past a white lady so that she won't fear you snatching her purse. You don't know how you have to overtip to break the stereotype that not all black people aren't bad tippers.

Just leave it alone.

So it's ok for you to have a stereo type but not us? As long as you state you and not "you"?


How do you ever figure we will over come this problem as long as it is "we" and not we?

wutamess
07-12-2008, 06:43 AM
So it's ok for you to have a stereo type but not us? As long as you state you and not "you"?


How do you ever figure we will over come this problem as long as it is "we" and not we?


I never said it wasn't ok for you not to stereotype us. I just said that we responsible ones have to do more work to make you (not you) see that we're not the stereotypical N in hopes of getting the position.




For clarification: The good'ol boy network is not the richest of the rich... I'm just referring to upper levels of management in corporate America. Director level & above.

wutamess
07-12-2008, 06:44 AM
Beach & Dan... I agree with your assessments that the more successful you are racism isn't really an issue (for the most part).

RNR
07-12-2008, 06:51 AM
So it's ok for you to have a stereo type but not us? As long as you state you and not "you"?


How do you ever figure we will over come this problem as long as it is "we" and not we?

That is my problem with this issue. The "it is a black thing you dont understand" answer. The fact a black person can say 95% of white people hiring positions are racist untill proven otherwise is no big deal. Let me as a white guy make a statement about blacks of that nature and I would be considered a racist.

Years ago Charles Barkley was being interveiwed and a reporter asked him a stupid question. He replied "thats why I hate white people" people laughed, hell I thought it was funny. When asked about it later he chuckled and said his buddy was waiting for him and he is white he was messing with him. Let change things up a bit now instead of Barkley lets put Larry Bird in his place talking to a black reporter. That would have caused outrage with threats of boycotts and demands of him being suspended.

Take these idiots in the thread starter the fact someone got their feelings hurt much less defended his stance is a joke. I have said before it blows me away that people come to this country unable to speak english and flat broke yet with in 10 years or less have worked their way up to good jobs own homes drive nice cars. Yet some how whitey his holding the black man down.

I am sorry I aint buying it anymore that dog just dont hunt! Get the hell over it and move on with your life. You can go far in this country if you work hard and find a reason to keep moving forward instead of finding a reason to fail.

bkkcoh
07-12-2008, 08:01 AM
I wonder how many times the good-ol' boy network is truly to blame and how many times it is used as an excuse?

Chief Faithful
07-12-2008, 08:24 AM
I wonder how many times the good-ol' boy network is truly to blame and how many times it is used as an excuse?

Excuse me! That is good-ol' person network!

I can't believe the sexist remarks that go on around here. :banghead:

Fairplay
07-12-2008, 09:06 AM
Notice how they have all these excuses why they feel they are not accepted into the working class like the whites? Excuse this and that.

My advice to find the real problem they have is to simply get a mirror, and take a long hard look into it.

wutamess
07-12-2008, 09:55 AM
That is my problem with this issue. The "it is a black thing you dont understand" answer. The fact a black person can say 95% of white people hiring positions are racist untill proven otherwise is no big deal. Let me as a white guy make a statement about blacks of that nature and I would be considered a racist.

Years ago Charles Barkley was being interveiwed and a reporter asked him a stupid question. He replied "thats why I hate white people" people laughed, hell I thought it was funny. When asked about it later he chuckled and said his buddy was waiting for him and he is white he was messing with him. Let change things up a bit now instead of Barkley lets put Larry Bird in his place talking to a black reporter. That would have caused outrage with threats of boycotts and demands of him being suspended.

Take these idiots in the thread starter the fact someone got their feelings hurt much less defended his stance is a joke. I have said before it blows me away that people come to this country unable to speak english and flat broke yet with in 10 years or less have worked their way up to good jobs own homes drive nice cars. Yet some how whitey his holding the black man down.

I am sorry I aint buying it anymore that dog just dont hunt! Get the hell over it and move on with your life. You can go far in this country if you work hard and find a reason to keep moving forward instead of finding a reason to fail.

1. Phil makes jokes like that all the time and it's funny... no matter what color you are.

2. I've never accepted a handout (even from family) and have repeatedly held a stance that it's whom evers responsibility to make it hard for anyone to deny anything to them they feel they're entitled to (personal responsibility).

3. I've never once stated that "whitey" is holding anyone down/back especially with all of the opportunities MINORITIES are given today.

4. It is some sort of a black thing you wouldn't understand and I've given examples of how with my smiling while passing someone or over tipping, etc. Stereotypes are just that... Stereotypes. They're not racist or they don't make you a racist by saying I like Watermelon and chicken (which I love both). To some it's racially insensitive which I've never understood & I hate how racism is always supposedly one sided. We get a pass and you guys don't. Isn't fair and I agree.

5. Has it ever occurred to you that the people from this country already HAVE money? You think America is letting poor people from China/Africa over here to live on the system?
5b. Those same people also fall under AA so why separate them from blacks. I'm talking about AA which covers ALL MINORITIES... Not just blacks.

6. Stop assuming I'm for a hand-out. I think AA isn't an answer but it's the best answer at the given time. Now when the workplace/hiring practices level themselves out (across the country), then it can be done away with. Until then it's needed for those remote areas that need it.

7. 95% possibly racist. It's not as blatant as you think ()it's more prejudging)... It's like when you see me on the streets you immediately probably think I'm the typical black person until we talk/meet. Statistics show I'm supposed to be either in jail or dead or a dead beat father who's not with my baby mama. It's not like you'll immediately think, this guy's one of the best people I'm going to ever have a chance to know in life (which I consider myself that person).

So NO! We don't go into an interview thinking, "I'm about to meet one of Hitlers kids". We go in assuming the interviewer is white and could be a racist. Just like the interviewer is thinking, he's black or a minority and could be an attitude or a problem.

Please don't defend your stances saying... You're the best interviewer or whatever because you assume nothing. It's human nature to assume stereotypes (even if it's little) until they're broken by getting to know someone.


To deny would be... un human like.

Fairplay
07-12-2008, 10:04 AM
4. It is some sort of a black thing you wouldn't understand............




Like its alright for black people to call each other ni**ers.

But white people can't. Something like that?

Could you imagine if this was a famous white person saying the exact same statement in the video below? There would be outrage among the black community. But in this case he's black so he 'understands' the black culture.

Different standards wouldn't you agree wutamuss?
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4aLGkFpsdHo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4aLGkFpsdHo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

wutamess
07-12-2008, 10:11 AM
Like its alright for black people to call each other ni**ers.

But white people can't. Something like that?

Could you imagine if this was a famous white person saying the exact same statement in the video below? There would be outrage among the black community. But in this case he's black so he 'understands' the black culture.

Different standards wouldn't you agree wutamuss?
<object height="344" width="425">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4aLGkFpsdHo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>

You finally posted something respectful (not ignorant) and worth responding too.

Yes... it's social norm to accept that blacks can call each other that word and hearing it from a white person would mean that you're racist. Stop beating the dead horse.

And please show me where there isn't rage everywhere concerning the video and comments by Jackson. His own son issued a statement condemning him. What more do you want? A protest and freedom march?

FWIW: I hate some of the marches and things that aren't justifiable.
Like I've been in numerous debates about the Sean Bell shootings with my own people.

There wouldn't have been a reason for the shooting if Sean Bell wouldn't have been in the wrong initially? At what point does the responsibility fall on him? The first officer to fire a shot was black so how in the hell can you claim racism, etc? Another one was latino or whatever. Also Bell had some gun charges before and his friends did too.

At what point do you stop defending ignorance and take responsibility and let bygones be bygones?

I'm with you guys on a lot of your issues but AA is needed.

RNR
07-12-2008, 10:40 AM
1. Phil makes jokes like that all the time and it's funny... no matter what color you are.

2. I've never accepted a handout (even from family) and have repeatedly held a stance that it's whom evers responsibility to make it hard for anyone to deny anything to them they feel they're entitled to (personal responsibility).

3. I've never once stated that "whitey" is holding anyone down/back especially with all of the opportunities MINORITIES are given today.

4. It is some sort of a black thing you wouldn't understand and I've given examples of how with my smiling while passing someone or over tipping, etc. Stereotypes are just that... Stereotypes. They're not racist or they don't make you a racist by saying I like Watermelon and chicken (which I love both).

5. Has it ever occurred to you that the people from this country already HAS money? You think America is letting poor people from China/Africa over here to live on the system.
5b. Those same people also fall under AA so why separate them from blacks. I'm talking about AA which covers all minorities... Not just blacks.

6. Stop assuming I'm for a hand-out. I think AA isn't an answer but it's the best answer at the given time. Now when the workplace/hiring practices level themselves out (across the country), then it can be done away with. Until then it's needed.

7. 95% possibly racist. It's not as blatant as you think... It's like when you see me on the streets you immediately probably think I'm the typical black person until we talk/meet. It's not like you'll immediately think, this guy's a thug or whatever... you just know the possibility is there until we get to know each other more.

So NO! We don't go into an interview thinking, "I'm about to meet one of Hitlers kids". We go in assuming the interviewer is white and could be a racist. Just like the interviewer is thinking, he's black and could be a problem.

Please don't defend your stances saying... You're the best interviewer or whatever because you assume nothing. It's human nature to assume stereotypes (even if it's little) until they're broken by getting to know someone.


To deny would be... un human like.


I never said you wanted a hand out as I do not know you. The only thing I brought up was the 95% statement and the it is a black thing. As far as me and you meeting you are nails on. I throw darts at a local bar and there is a guy that hangs out and plays pool there and for a long time we never spoke. He wears hip hop style clothing (I guess that is the term) well you can most likely guess I dont dress like that. One time he was playing the juke box and it was rap music, I walked up and smiled and told him sorry man but I am going to redneck it up a bit. He laughed and said thats cool.

Later I was over playing darts and the waitress brought me a beer I did not order. I asked her why and she said Tyrone bought it for you, I asked who that was and she pointed to the hip hop guy. I walked over and thanked him and ordered him one we struck up a conversation. We talked about several things and the topic of race came up.

I told him there was a time I would have sent the beer back. He looked at me and asked why, I told him when in school we used to have riots all the time and it was white on black. I told him for a long time I hated blacks. I also said it took me a long time to put that silly shit behind me. He laughed and told me how he had grown up feeling the same way about whites. He paused and looked at me and said I was the first white guy that had ever been that honest about racism to him.

We have become pretty good friends and if he was in a scrape I would back him in a heartbeat as I am sure he would me. Yes I think most people have some level of racism and am pretty sure always will. That said as a white guy it gets a little old feeling I have to walk on egg shells and be real careful what I say or I might offend someone because of things I had nothing to do with.

It just wears on me to read crap like the thread topic and it just seems to happen so often. I believe in my heart at this point in time everyone has a chance to do well if they make good choices and work hard. I think it is time to get over it and move on and that can be a easy as buying a stranger a beer.

Fairplay
07-12-2008, 10:57 AM
Yes... it's social norm to accept that blacks can call each other that word and hearing it from a white person would mean that you're racist. Stop beating the dead horse.


Blacks demean each other constantly but its a black thing only.

Now look who the ignorant one is.

wutamess
07-12-2008, 12:25 PM
It just wears on me to read crap like the thread topic and it just seems to happen so often. I believe in my heart at this point in time everyone has a chance to do well if they make good choices and work hard. I think it is time to get over it and move on and that can be a easy as buying a stranger a beer.


Trust me. We feel the exact same way.
Why can't we all just get alone? :thumb:

banyon
07-12-2008, 12:54 PM
From the blog:

Judge Jones should be very glad that the central collections office has not become a white hole, a theoretical object that ejects matter from beyond its event horizon, rather than sucking it in. It wouldn't be fun for Dallas to find itself so near a quasar.

LMAO

DaneMcCloud
07-12-2008, 01:01 PM
For clarification: The good'ol boy network is not the richest of the rich... I'm just referring to upper levels of management in corporate America. Director level & above.

Well, here's where I have to draw the line.

Initially, I thought that you were implying that it's extremely difficult for non-whites to rise to the level of CEO, CFO, COB, etc. of huge multi-national corporations (that, being the "Good Ol' Boy" network). To that, I would agree (though I've stated that's true for almost anyone, regardless of race).

But if you're lowering the bar to include upper management and director level, we couldn't be in further disagreement. I know PLENTY of non-whites that are in upper management - too many to count. Countless. Hell, everyone of my wife's college friends (Chinese, Korean, Black, White, Hispanic) ALL make over $250k per year, regardless of skin color. Now granted, these are people who had extremely high grade point averages, one of the girls got her Master's from London School of Business and they live in Los Angeles, Phoenix and/or San Francisco.

If you're encountering a "glass ceiling", I think it's probably due more to the conservative nature of the area in which you live because I can assure that those types of hiring practices (the exclusion of non-whites in management positions) do not occur in the West Coast or Northeast business centers.

banyon
07-12-2008, 01:01 PM
There's a video too:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oc1zGRUPztc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oc1zGRUPztc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

little jacob
07-12-2008, 01:01 PM
Williams Aide Resigns in Language Dispute

By Yolanda Woodlee
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 27, 1999; Page B1

The director of D.C. Mayor Anthony A. Williams's constituent services office resigned after being accused of using a racial slur, the mayor's office said yesterday.

David Howard, head of the Office of Public Advocate, said he used the word "*****rdly" in a Jan. 15 conversation about funding with two employees.

"I used the word '*****rdly' in reference to my administration of a fund," Howard said in a written statement yesterday. "Although the word, which is defined as miserly, does not have any racial connotations, I realize that staff members present were offended by the word.

"I immediately apologized," Howard said. " . . . I would never think of making a racist remark. I regret that the word I did use offended anyone."

When Howard, who is white, noticed the reaction to his use of the word, he apologized to his three-member staff, which is made up of two blacks and another white. It is unclear which two employees he was addressing when he used the word.

Soon after the remark was uttered, the rumor mill started churning that Howard had used the word "******."

Howard said he has received numerous telephone calls since Jan. 15 from people in the community who had heard "I had made a racist remark . . . [which is] in fact unquotable here."

The Barnhard Dictionary of Etymology traces the origins of "*****rdly" to the 1300s and the words nig and nigon, meaning miser, in Middle English. It also notes possible earlier origins in languages including Old Icelandic, Old English and Middle High German. There is no mention of any racial connotation.

Howard said the rumor that he had used a racial slur "has severely compromised my effectiveness as the District's Public Advocate and in the best interest of my office, I resigned," effective Monday.

Howard is the second mayoral appointee in two weeks to quit, and his resignation comes at a time when Williams's administration is being bombarded with questions regarding race relations -- his "loyalty" to his race as well as the diversity of his staff. Williams (D) is black; Howard was one of four white men Williams appointed on the first official business day of his administration.

Five days after Williams named the senior policy advisers, a group of residents from east of the Anacostia River -- many of whom had been part of the Draft Williams Committee -- complained that the mayor had "missed a unique opportunity" to name someone who lives in Southeast Washington to his personal staff. And they questioned whether Williams would be responsive to the predominantly black and working-class communities of the city.

The issue of race continued to dog the mayor the next week, when a D.C. resident wrote an opinion piece in the Jan. 17 Washington Post questioning whether Williams is "black enough."

Williams said that he was "confused" by the opinion piece and that he had a track record of helping minorities. Williams said he recognized during his campaign that race was creating a "great divide in the city." He said his campaign was a diverse coalition that represented people across the District.

"While I'm troubled by recent news stories concerning race -- questions about whether I'm black enough or have too many advisers who are not -- I understand that they reflect a great hurt within our city," Williams said in a written statement last night. "I am committed to representing all of the people of our city and making sure my administration truly reflects the city's diversity.

"I am particularly sensitive to the need to include people that have felt excluded from the political process and governance of the city, such as residents east of the Anacostia River.

"One thing I've learned, we will never relieve the pain or heal a hurt if we refuse to talk about the cause," Williams said. "We need to get issues around race relations out in the open."

Williams said yesterday that he accepted Howard's resignation after reports that Howard had made an "inappropriate racial comment."

Howard's resignation follows that of scheduler James Day, who left after a salary dispute.

Howard served as the volunteer coordinator and office manager during Williams's mayoral campaign, overseeing 1,600 volunteers. When Howard was appointed to head the office that responds to residents' complaints about services such as trash pickup, welfare benefits and police protection, the mayor's office put out a brief biography that said Howard was "often referred to as the 'glue' that bonded everyone together." He was to be paid $58,148 a year.

According to the biography, Howard graduated from the University of Florida with a degree in economics and has managed several top restaurants in the city.

© Copyright 1999 The Washington Post Company

little jacob
07-12-2008, 01:02 PM
that is supposed to say n-i-g-g-a-r-d-l-y

Friendo
07-12-2008, 01:08 PM
Truthfully, I don't feel like giving examples to be judged by you and others of their validity. We feel whites are fed silver spoons from birth while we have to work hard for everything we get. You're (not you) born in the network of the good ol boy. You KNOW the inner circles while more than likely we have to start from scratch as we're usually first generation corporate employees.

All the while you're (not you) bitching about 1-2% of QUALIFIED minorities getting a job over whites.

~The good ol boy network is the reason AA is in place.

I'll stop on this page--don't need to read further, because the usual suspects have shown up, and given the usual responses. I totally agree with you wut. At one time I believed otherwise and had a long conversation with a black friend about this subject. We both worked for the same company, but he challenged me that this Company, this branch based in good-ole-boy Columbia SC, would've EVER hired a black for sales, had it not been for AA ( and this guy was good). Add the impetus given by the progressive Sara Lee Corp who had purchased this Regional Distributor, and things were starting to change, but it took a catalyst. I know it hasn't been a perfect solution, but the way you must hear it portrayed by many Cracks, must really be an azz-chapper.

vailpass
07-12-2008, 01:11 PM
I'll stop on this page--don't need to read further, because the usual suspects have shown up, and given the usual responses. I totally agree with you wut. At one time I believed otherwise and had a long conversation with a black friend about this subject. We both worked for the same company, but he challenged me that this Company, this branch based in good-ole-boy Columbia SC, would've EVER hired a black for sales, had it not been for AA ( and this guy was good). Add the impetus given by the progressive Sara Lee Corp who had purchased this Regional Distributor, and things were starting to change, but it took a catalyst. I know it hasn't been a perfect solution, but the way you must hear it portrayed by many Cracks, must really be an azz-chapper.

Hey wutamess,
Here is one of your "I have a black friend" droppers. What do you think?

Friendo
07-12-2008, 01:14 PM
Hey wutamess,
Here is one of your "I have a black friend" droppers. What do you think?


right on cue.

vailpass
07-12-2008, 01:18 PM
Do you have a point n00b? Who are you?

Subterranean Alien
07-12-2008, 01:20 PM
I'm so sick of race that I wish I were transparent.

stumppy
07-12-2008, 01:23 PM
There's a video too:


<OBJECT height=344 width=425>

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oc1zGRUPztc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></OBJECT></P>



:LOL:

The guy should have said ' Yea, I'm sorry............sorry your parents didn't have any children with common sense".


What a fugging joke. My money says the offended individual is trying to Sharpton his way to the top.

vailpass
07-12-2008, 01:28 PM
</P>



:LOL:

The guy should have said ' Yea, I'm sorry............sorry your parents didn't have any children with common sense".


What a fugging joke. My money says the offended individual is trying to Sharpton his way to the top.

Can you believe these ignorant buffoons are able to interfere with business proceedings with their idiotic comments? There was no racism here, only a racist looking for racist comments in everything he hears. This is an insult to all of those who have endured real racism.
This fool is crying wolf.

The fact that this country has become so PC, so bound by minority racial complaints, that this moron's comments were actually given attention instead of being dismissed outright for the waste of breath they were speaks ill of our nation.

It's a black day for us all, I propose a black-out on all false racism charges, anyone who commits such an action should be black balled.

Thig Lyfe
07-12-2008, 01:28 PM
You just know South Park is going to have an episode about this.

vailpass
07-12-2008, 01:29 PM
You just know South Park is going to have an episode about this.

Whatever it is it can't beat the Randy on Wheel of Fortune episode.

stumppy
07-12-2008, 01:38 PM
Whatever it is it can't beat the Randy on Wheel of Fortune episode.


LMAO:LOL:LMAO

One of the top 10 shows of all time.

beach tribe
07-12-2008, 01:41 PM
Williams Aide Resigns in Language Dispute

By Yolanda Woodlee
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 27, 1999; Page B1

The director of D.C. Mayor Anthony A. Williams's constituent services office resigned after being accused of using a racial slur, the mayor's office said yesterday.

David Howard, head of the Office of Public Advocate, said he used the word "*****rdly" in a Jan. 15 conversation about funding with two employees.

"I used the word '*****rdly' in reference to my administration of a fund," Howard said in a written statement yesterday. "Although the word, which is defined as miserly, does not have any racial connotations, I realize that staff members present were offended by the word.

"I immediately apologized," Howard said. " . . . I would never think of making a racist remark. I regret that the word I did use offended anyone."

When Howard, who is white, noticed the reaction to his use of the word, he apologized to his three-member staff, which is made up of two blacks and another white. It is unclear which two employees he was addressing when he used the word.

Soon after the remark was uttered, the rumor mill started churning that Howard had used the word "******."

Howard said he has received numerous telephone calls since Jan. 15 from people in the community who had heard "I had made a racist remark . . . [which is] in fact unquotable here."

The Barnhard Dictionary of Etymology traces the origins of "*****rdly" to the 1300s and the words nig and nigon, meaning miser, in Middle English. It also notes possible earlier origins in languages including Old Icelandic, Old English and Middle High German. There is no mention of any racial connotation.

Howard said the rumor that he had used a racial slur "has severely compromised my effectiveness as the District's Public Advocate and in the best interest of my office, I resigned," effective Monday.

Howard is the second mayoral appointee in two weeks to quit, and his resignation comes at a time when Williams's administration is being bombarded with questions regarding race relations -- his "loyalty" to his race as well as the diversity of his staff. Williams (D) is black; Howard was one of four white men Williams appointed on the first official business day of his administration.

Five days after Williams named the senior policy advisers, a group of residents from east of the Anacostia River -- many of whom had been part of the Draft Williams Committee -- complained that the mayor had "missed a unique opportunity" to name someone who lives in Southeast Washington to his personal staff. And they questioned whether Williams would be responsive to the predominantly black and working-class communities of the city.

The issue of race continued to dog the mayor the next week, when a D.C. resident wrote an opinion piece in the Jan. 17 Washington Post questioning whether Williams is "black enough."

Williams said that he was "confused" by the opinion piece and that he had a track record of helping minorities. Williams said he recognized during his campaign that race was creating a "great divide in the city." He said his campaign was a diverse coalition that represented people across the District.

"While I'm troubled by recent news stories concerning race -- questions about whether I'm black enough or have too many advisers who are not -- I understand that they reflect a great hurt within our city," Williams said in a written statement last night. "I am committed to representing all of the people of our city and making sure my administration truly reflects the city's diversity.

"I am particularly sensitive to the need to include people that have felt excluded from the political process and governance of the city, such as residents east of the Anacostia River.

"One thing I've learned, we will never relieve the pain or heal a hurt if we refuse to talk about the cause," Williams said. "We need to get issues around race relations out in the open."

Williams said yesterday that he accepted Howard's resignation after reports that Howard had made an "inappropriate racial comment."

Howard's resignation follows that of scheduler James Day, who left after a salary dispute.

Howard served as the volunteer coordinator and office manager during Williams's mayoral campaign, overseeing 1,600 volunteers. When Howard was appointed to head the office that responds to residents' complaints about services such as trash pickup, welfare benefits and police protection, the mayor's office put out a brief biography that said Howard was "often referred to as the 'glue' that bonded everyone together." He was to be paid $58,148 a year.

According to the biography, Howard graduated from the University of Florida with a degree in economics and has managed several top restaurants in the city.

© Copyright 1999 The Washington Post Company
Wow. I wonder if they all cheer when a guy loses his job over having a vocabulary bigger than that of their own.

"Bob" Dobbs
07-12-2008, 01:48 PM
bk: You're taking this personal. I'm just telling you the way a minority sees white America. We're immediately skeptical until we know more about you. I guess you're stereotyped or prejudged as being racist because of our history's past.

Is that a bad assumption just because YOU aren't?

I really want to know. How is THAT statement not racist in & of itself?

stumppy
07-12-2008, 01:54 PM
I really want to know. How is THAT statement not racist in & of itself?


Because he's a minority dummy. Jeez, get with the program.

vailpass
07-12-2008, 02:01 PM
Totally agree with you beachtribe, I was poking a stick at the n00b friendo from a few posts ago then I saw stumpy had beat me to it so I deleted.

Ebolapox
07-12-2008, 03:46 PM
Truthfully, I don't feel like giving examples to be judged by you and others of their validity. We feel whites are fed silver spoons from birth while we have to work hard for everything we get. You're (not you) born in the network of the good ol boy. You KNOW the inner circles while more than likely we have to start from scratch as we're usually first generation corporate employees.

All the while you're (not you) bitching about 1-2% of QUALIFIED minorities getting a job over whites.

~The good ol boy network is the reason AA is in place.

yeah, because all white people are born with ONE MILLION DOLLARS and a lifetime supply of MONEY. we don't have to work our asses off, our parents give us everything, and we're handed CEO jobs the second we turn 18 years old. :spock:

redbrian
07-12-2008, 06:13 PM
Not saying we don't have the same opportunities in some departments (schooling) but within the workplace, you're not looking at facts here... You're basically telling me that only 5% (generous number) of minorities are competent enough to lead fortune 500 corps. If that's how you feel then that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Having said that, since 95% of our fortune 500 CEO's and top level execs are white, how else would you ensure fair practices that a minority gets an equal chance at a position?

Again... Show me an example where a minority had preferential treatment over someone else while being under qualified for a position.

~No matter how ignorant it is.


CEO's dont do the hiring.........HR does.......

Fairplay
07-12-2008, 06:26 PM
nig·gard·ly Audio Help /ˈnɪgərdli/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[nig-erd-lee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. reluctant to give or spend; stingy; miserly.
2. meanly or ungenerously small or scanty: a *****rdly tip to a waiter.
–adverb
3. in the manner of a *****rd.


Used in a sentence.

Because she was a waitress in the bad part of town, she expected n-i-g-g-a-r-d-l-y tips.

wutamess
07-12-2008, 06:36 PM
I really want to know. How is THAT statement not racist in & of itself?


You think you're talking to angry black man.
I don't care if you think it's racist... I'm just telling how a minority sees white people.

Me... I mingle with all races and don't care if you're racist or not.
Sorry if you're offended.

wutamess
07-12-2008, 06:38 PM
yeah, because all white people are born with ONE MILLION DOLLARS and a lifetime supply of MONEY. we don't have to work our asses off, our parents give us everything, and we're handed CEO jobs the second we turn 18 years old. :spock:


In general. You can't sit here and tell me that you don't think you have certain advantages because you're white.

wutamess
07-12-2008, 06:38 PM
CEO's dont do the hiring.........HR does.......

On the recommendation from the hiring mgr.

Fairplay
07-12-2008, 06:39 PM
In general. You can't sit here and tell me that you don't think you have certain advantages because you're white.



You go boy.

wutamess
07-12-2008, 06:40 PM
I'm so sick of race that I wish I were transparent.



You and me both.

wutamess
07-12-2008, 06:42 PM
Do you have a point n00b? Who are you?

So just because he's new and tend to agree he doesn't have a valid point.

Look you guys are like me... going to believe or think what you want. I'm just telling you some things from the opposite perspective. Take it for what it's worth or not. Interesting discussion.

Thanks.

Baby Lee
07-12-2008, 06:59 PM
In general. You can't sit here and tell me that you don't think you have certain advantages because you're white.

It works both ways. Maybe someone sees my pasty flabby ass and thinks I'm a standup guy because I'm white. But if anything goes wrong anywhere, anyhow, I don't have any connections to keep it from all being taken away. My mom's a housewife [now working a Dilbert job at IRS, now that her children are grown]. My dad's a fabricator with an associate's degree in EE. My maternal grandparents were DIRT poor knockabouts, I'm talkng decades of the only income being grandpa's veteran's pension of $100-odd a month and what he got from stripping copper and aluminum out of what he drug out of the 'dump' [they have unattended, public places where you can just dump your trash in Louisiana]. My paternal grandparents, grandma was a housewife and grandpa worked 40 years repairing brakes on train cars for Mobil. Grandma's fairly well off, but that's because they saved like mofos each and every year, and their savings went into Mobil stock.
But it's not like I can go anywhere and people will say 'Oh, you're Baby Lee, Mr. Lee's son,' and get anywhere.

kstater
07-12-2008, 07:04 PM
Wutamess, I have a serious question for you. I haven't finished reading the thread, so you might have covered it. But a couple of times you have mentioned that you feel the need to over-tip to counteract the perceived stereotype that African Americans don't tip well. Why do you feel that you need to do this? I would think that any person should just tip according to the service they receive. Don't you feel that you are furthering racial bias' by feeling that you need to "correct" others of your race?

KCChiefsMan
07-12-2008, 07:08 PM
I once ordered coffee from a Dunkin Donuts and I said I want it "black" then it felt like eyes were on me and it was awkward. I make sure I just say "no cream or sugar" if I say I want it "white" then they'll probably put too much milk in it

kstater
07-12-2008, 07:13 PM
BTW, the video makes this whole ordeal even more absurd.

vailpass
07-12-2008, 07:54 PM
So just because he's new and tend to agree he doesn't have a valid point.

C'mon Wuta, The guy doesn't know his superfly-do-or-die from his midnight gatorade run. Lemme' have a little fun o:-)

Peace to you too.

vailpass
07-12-2008, 07:55 PM
I once ordered coffee from a Dunkin Donuts and I said I want it "black" then it felt like eyes were on me and it was awkward. I make sure I just say "no cream or sugar" if I say I want it "white" then they'll probably put too much milk in it

You're lucky you don't have my grandmother. Everywhere we go she orders her coffee 'hot and black just like my men".

Ebolapox
07-12-2008, 08:07 PM
In general. You can't sit here and tell me that you don't think you have certain advantages because you're white.

my dad is/was an alcoholic, albeit a functioning alcoholic who always had a job. my parents were both potheads until a few years ago (I think--they may still be). they lost their house because my mom is disabled (but not on disability, can't keep a job) and my dad isn't great with money. I'm putting myself through school, have worked full-time since I was fifteen years old, etc. every f*cking thing that I have I've earned with my two hands and my back. f*ck your silver spoon. I've had NOTHING handed to me, nor do I expect it. my relatives never owned slaves, they were poor southern cr@ckers who could barely afford a f*cking mule. so you can take your entitlement and shove it up your ass.

wutamess
07-12-2008, 09:02 PM
Wutamess, I have a serious question for you. I haven't finished reading the thread, so you might have covered it. But a couple of times you have mentioned that you feel the need to over-tip to counteract the perceived stereotype that African Americans don't tip well. Why do you feel that you need to do this? I would think that any person should just tip according to the service they receive. Don't you feel that you are furthering racial bias' by feeling that you need to "correct" others of your race?

Because if I make up for the shortcomings of some of my other people for a waitress I might end the stereotype. That waitress (or waiter) might take care of the next black patron. Plus on first glance... I dress like a damn bum most of the time so when we go out it's usually me & my wife with the 4 kids. I feel like if they didn't prejudge me and gives me excellent service despite the odds of them not getting a good tip (black family, bummy dressing dad w/ 4 kids) then I'll teach them a leseson to not judge a book by its cover.

Same concept as the guy that opened the door or acts nice to blacks while in the hood. He's trying to make a difference and show that not ALL people are like what he's "prejudged" to be.


Great ?