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View Full Version : Royals Alright, let's settle this once and for all...


thurman merman
07-14-2008, 12:10 PM
Who is a better overall baseball player, John Buck or Miguel Olivo?

PGM
07-14-2008, 12:11 PM
Where's the Yadier Molina option :D

Demonpenz
07-14-2008, 12:12 PM
John buck is the worst person on earth

bkkcoh
07-14-2008, 12:13 PM
I haven't noticed Olivo mentioned much, has he been injured or what. Or was he suffering a little slump and they gave him some games off.

thurman merman
07-14-2008, 12:16 PM
I haven't noticed Olivo mentioned much, has he been injured or what. Or was he suffering a little slump and they gave him some games off.

i don't know, but if he can move his body at all, he should be the starting catcher.

smittysbar
07-14-2008, 12:17 PM
Where's the Yadier Molina option :D

:thumb:

Deberg_1990
07-14-2008, 12:17 PM
Sadly, John Suck is a little better.

bsp4444
07-14-2008, 12:18 PM
Miguel Olivo's hustle when he made it to second on a passed ball against the Yankees told me all I need to know. He has more power, desire and baseball sense than Buck. I don't care who calls a better game, and judging by our record, I'd say it doesn't much better, we are only a few games better than last year, when we had Jason Freaking Larue marched out there all the time.

KCUnited
07-14-2008, 12:19 PM
I haven't noticed Olivo mentioned much, has he been injured or what. Or was he suffering a little slump and they gave him some games off.

It could be his 53 strikeouts to his 7 walks and the fact that J. Buck has a higher OBP. Sadly, I think its a wash.

StcChief
07-14-2008, 12:21 PM
Where's the Yadier Molina option :D
yeah where is the Yadie option :D

Redrum_69
07-14-2008, 12:21 PM
I'll say BIGFOOT

http://bfro.net/

petegz28
07-14-2008, 12:26 PM
Who is a better overall baseball player, John Buck or Miguel Olivo?

Olivo.

Boris The Great
07-14-2008, 12:29 PM
Royals record with John Buck catching:

33-32

Royals record with Miguel Olivo catching:

10-21

Thread over.

Reaper16
07-14-2008, 12:29 PM
It's pretty even, imo.

Reaper16
07-14-2008, 12:30 PM
Royals record with John Buck catching:

33-32

Royals record with Miguel Olivo catching:

10-21

Thread over.
But how many of those Buck wins also included Olivo's bat in the lineup at DH?

Fish
07-14-2008, 12:30 PM
The dark brown turd floats slightly more upright than the lighter-colored turd.....

DeezNutz
07-14-2008, 12:38 PM
Royals record with John Buck catching:

33-32

Royals record with Miguel Olivo catching:

10-21

Thread over.

LMAO

KC is obviously a .500 club with Buck in the lineup. WTF Hillman?!? It's a statistic, so it must be accurate.

Regarding Buck vs. Olivo, they're both equally below average, each in different ways. However, both could be the catcher on a winning team with other pieces in place.

beavis
07-14-2008, 12:42 PM
They guy makes one bad play and we're calling for his head?

Reaper16
07-14-2008, 12:46 PM
I don't know if they are below average. They seem pretty damn average compared to other starting catchers. Sure, they're below average for a theoretical benchmark of what a good MLB catcher should be... but the simple truth is that there are practically no good catchers in the majors.

BigRock
07-14-2008, 12:47 PM
But how many of those Buck wins also included Olivo's bat in the lineup at DH?
Does it really matter? Even if you could make a case that Buck's wins benefitted from Olivo's bat at the DH spot, it's just going to highlight the fact that Olivo shouldn't be the one behind the plate. After all, Olivo's bat was in the lineup for 100% of his starts at catcher, and look at that record.

I honestly had no idea the split was that extreme.

DeezNutz
07-14-2008, 12:52 PM
Sure, they're below average for a theoretical benchmark of what a good MLB catcher should be... but the simple truth is that there are practically no good catchers in the majors.

I can agree with this.

CHENZ A!
07-14-2008, 12:52 PM
I'd be willing to take just about anyone other than Buck's sorry ass.

sedated
07-14-2008, 12:53 PM
Royals record with John Buck catching:

33-32

Royals record with Miguel Olivo catching:

10-21

any way to find out the starting pitchers ERA with each catcher?

thurman merman
07-14-2008, 01:07 PM
Royals record with John Buck catching:

33-32

Royals record with Miguel Olivo catching:

10-21

Thread over.


the royals had a good record at the beginning of the year when dejesus was on the DL and gathright was playing. does that mean gathright is better than dejesus?

DeezNutz
07-14-2008, 01:18 PM
any way to find out the starting pitchers ERA with each catcher?

Someone has posted this info. before. It's better with Buck, and, if I'm remembering correctly, by a pretty decent margin.

I posted Buck's defensive stats in yesterday's game thread. He ranks 8th in the AL.

Nightfyre
07-14-2008, 02:30 PM
Royals record with John Buck catching:

33-32

Royals record with Miguel Olivo catching:

10-21

Thread over.

Buck gets better pitchers by far is what that statistic speaks to, imo. I think Buck is the better catcher but Olivo is the better hitter. I think that's Hillman's take as well.

Mr. Arrowhead
07-14-2008, 02:33 PM
stats dont lie especially in baseball, olivo is 100 times better than worthless buck

Reaper16
07-14-2008, 02:35 PM
stats dont lie especially in baseball, olivo is 100 times better than worthless buck
And which are the stats that show that?

Boris The Great
07-14-2008, 02:35 PM
the royals had a good record at the beginning of the year when dejesus was on the DL and gathright was playing. does that mean gathright is better than dejesus?

I assumed that everyone understood the basic tenant of baseball that catchers are somewhat more important to the overall performance of a team than utility outfielders are. I was clearly wrong to assume this, and I apologize for the mistake.

Mr. Arrowhead
07-14-2008, 02:39 PM
And which are the stats that show that?
olivo has thrown out 9 runners out of 19, when buck has thrown out 5 out of 38. Also olivo has almost twice as many HRs, more RBi's, and a better batting avg.

SPATCH
07-14-2008, 02:48 PM
i give buck a slight edge because i really appreciate a catcher that can call a good game, and he's vastly better than olivo at that... he's pretty handy behind the plate when it comes to smothering balls in the dirt, too. we all know how terrible his arm is, there's no defending that... but he has shown a few glimpses at the plate of being a competent hitter. so i'll say buck.

BigRock
07-14-2008, 03:06 PM
olivo has thrown out 9 runners out of 19, when buck has thrown out 5 out of 38.

You can't consider that a more important stat than the team winning more games and the pitching staff having a better ERA with Buck in the game.

Also olivo has almost twice as many HRs

When they both have less than 10, "almost twice as many" is kinda misleading. Olivo has 4 more.

more RBi's, and a better batting avg.

Olivo does have a better batting average, but his OBP is .291. Buck's is .322.

The only stats in Olivo's favor are thrown-out base runners and the fact he has 4 more HRs and 1 more RBI. Absolutely everything else, including rather important ones like wins and ERA, point to Buck.

If the "stats don't lie", you're backing the wrong horse.

thurman merman
07-14-2008, 03:31 PM
I assumed that everyone understood the basic tenant of baseball that catchers are somewhat more important to the overall performance of a team than utility outfielders are. I was clearly wrong to assume this, and I apologize for the mistake.

outfielders are not important?

sorry, i was unaware that someone recently decided that only one of the nine players on a baseball field is important. when did this change take place?

acesn8s
07-14-2008, 03:32 PM
outfielders are not important?

sorry, i was unaware that someone recently decided that only one of the nine players on a baseball field is important. when did this change take place?
When they began using the DH.

CoMoChief
07-14-2008, 03:46 PM
Buck is the better catcher, Olivio is a MUCH better hitter. Buck ****ing sucks at hitting. every once in a while he'll get hot but not for long.

Ari Chi3fs
07-14-2008, 04:25 PM
John Buck's rookie card's value is HUGE.

Boris The Great
07-14-2008, 04:47 PM
outfielders are not important?

Wow, excellent job taking the statement that catchers are more important than utility outfielders and crafting it into a claim that outfielders are not important at all. I was going to ask why you havent bothered to refute any of the statistics that prove Buck, while not that great himself, is clearly better than Olivo. But obviously you were too busy creating that strawman.

The only thing that anyone here can score for Olivo is that he is a better hitter, but even that is hardly true. Olivo has a career batting average of .241. Buck has a career average of .239. Wow, look at the amazing difference.

Olivo has a career OBP of .276, which is dreadful. Buck has an OBP of .300 for his career. So even if his career batting average is a whopping .002 less than Olivo, he still gets on base far more often. And that has continued to hold true this season. Olivo has a career OPS (on-base plus slugging) of .688. Buck is .704.

Anyone who is claiming that Olvio is a much better hitter than Buck, at the end of the day your argument boils down to this: in this half season so far, Olivo has a higher BA by .009 points, he has 4 more HRs, and has 1 more run batted in. My, what a landslide. Oh, and dont forget, Buck actually gets on base more.

The only reasonable argument for giving Olivo more time over Buck is that Olivo is clearly better at throwing out base runners. Get a stopwatch, tell a baseball manager that he needs to make a switch at catcher for that reason, and let us know how long he laughs.

ChiefsCountry
07-14-2008, 06:29 PM
I want to hear tk13's take on this.

Coach
07-14-2008, 06:47 PM
Miguel Olivo's VORP is 7.8
John Buck's VORP is 1.8

Coach
07-14-2008, 06:51 PM
Buck's OPS+ is 87
Olivio's OPS+ is 100

doomy3
07-14-2008, 06:56 PM
Olivo's career OBP is below .300

That is horrendous. He had a hot stretch this year, and hits lefties pretty well, but Buck has a higher career OBP, OPS, has hit more homeruns in a single year than any of Olivo's years, and our pitchers have a full run lower ERA with Buck behind the plate. Plus the fact that the Royals win at a much higher clip with Buck behind the plate than Olivo, and I think this is pretty simple. Buck is not good, but Olivo really isn't good. The only argument against Buck is this year's % of runners thrown out, which is horrible. He has been decent at that in years past. Plus, for all the runners Olivo has thrown out, he has allowed 5x that many to advance by simply not catching the ball, so the runner takes an extra base. Seriously, watch how many balls Olivo drops.

DeezNutz
07-14-2008, 07:10 PM
Not really defending Olivo, as I've maintained that both he and Buck aren't the best, but...

From the All-Star break in '07 until now, Buck has hit 8 HRs. His first half of '07 seems to be anomaly.

Also, to claim that Buck blocks well is laughable. Like most ML catchers, he usually stabs at the ball and when he does try to get his body in front, which isn't often, the five hole is almost always open, and this is where many of his pitchers' "wild pitches" end up. Olivo generally does a better job of squaring up the ball.

thurman merman
07-15-2008, 12:06 PM
Wow, excellent job taking the statement that catchers are more important than utility outfielders and crafting it into a claim that outfielders are not important at all. I was going to ask why you havent bothered to refute any of the statistics that prove Buck, while not that great himself, is clearly better than Olivo. But obviously you were too busy creating that strawman.

The only thing that anyone here can score for Olivo is that he is a better hitter, but even that is hardly true. Olivo has a career batting average of .241. Buck has a career average of .239. Wow, look at the amazing difference.

Olivo has a career OBP of .276, which is dreadful. Buck has an OBP of .300 for his career. So even if his career batting average is a whopping .002 less than Olivo, he still gets on base far more often. And that has continued to hold true this season. Olivo has a career OPS (on-base plus slugging) of .688. Buck is .704.

Anyone who is claiming that Olvio is a much better hitter than Buck, at the end of the day your argument boils down to this: in this half season so far, Olivo has a higher BA by .009 points, he has 4 more HRs, and has 1 more run batted in. My, what a landslide. Oh, and dont forget, Buck actually gets on base more.

The only reasonable argument for giving Olivo more time over Buck is that Olivo is clearly better at throwing out base runners. Get a stopwatch, tell a baseball manager that he needs to make a switch at catcher for that reason, and let us know how long he laughs.

why are we talking about career statistics now? i don't care what either one of them has done in the past. if you watch the games, you can just tell that miguel olivo is better at everything. john buck can't hit a pitch faster than 90 mph. all you have to do to strike him out is throw 3 straight fastballs. he can't hit, he can't run, he can't throw, he can't even catch all that well, and his job description is CATCHER. i can't think of any reason why anybody would like him at all. he is such a terrible, terrible baseball player, and i can't believe that anybody is defending him.

thurman merman
07-19-2008, 12:46 AM
update: john buck goes 0-4 with 2 more strikeouts tonight. batting average is now down to .247.

BigRock
07-19-2008, 03:11 AM
update: john buck goes 0-4 with 2 more strikeouts tonight. batting average is now down to .247.
Feel free to keep us all updated on his batting average, but...

It’s no longer a platoon situation at catcher. John Buck made his season-high sixth straight start Friday and appears in line to get the majority of playing time over Miguel Olivo for the foreseeable future.

“Game management,” Hillman explained. “I like what he does for us behind the plate as far as helping us read swings and helping the pitchers follow the game plan.

“Miggy will still mix in there, but I just feel that if we’re going to be successful, we need to be as consistent as possible with who is running our game. I believe Buck does a better job at that.”

thurman merman
08-10-2008, 04:33 PM
john buck 0-4 with 2 more strikeouts today, now hitting .230 on the season. olivo is hitting .264. in case anybody is still keeping track.