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View Full Version : Royals Derrick Johnson and Alex Gordon


Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 10:15 AM
Anyone else get the same feelings on both of these players.
Difference in sports asside. Highly hyped players not living up to billing.
Both have some "solid" seasons but still dissapointed.
Marred by the fact there are other people in the draft that could have been taking by teams that are doing way better. Alex gordon- braun, longoria, zimmerman
Derrick Johnson- Merriman, Ware, Cromartie

Chiefnj2
07-15-2008, 10:27 AM
DJ is doing fine in the system in which he is being asked to play.

DeezNutz
07-15-2008, 10:28 AM
Anyone else get the same feelings on both of these players.
Difference in sports asside. Highly hyped players not living up to billing.
Both have some "solid" seasons but still dissapointed.
Marred by the fact there are other people in the draft that could have been taking by teams that are doing way better. Alex gordon- braun, longoria, zimmerman
Derrick Johnson- Merriman, Ware, Cromartie

Considering how hyped both were coming out, I think this is an apt comparison. But Johnson's been a better player, IMO. There have been games when he's been dominant, and many more when he's hard to spot. Off the top of my head, though, it's hard to think of a dominant game by Gordon. Last year he had a two-HR game against the Twins, but...Plus dominating a couple of games during a 16-game season is a hell of a lot different from dominating a single game in a 160+ season.

The other frustrating thing, and why Johnson thus far has been a better selection, is that the Royals could have had players who would have made a quicker (and maybe overall more significant) impact. In the Johnson draft year, 2005, the players you listed were already selected (Merriman and Ware). Cromartie went in the Hali year, also before the Chiefs selected.

Rausch
07-15-2008, 10:33 AM
Gun is good at the overall defensive strategy to beat a team.

Gun is good at the smaller picture working with a unit (LB's.)

Gun is NOT good at applying the larger strategy to the smaller unit.

See also: DT, Donnie Edwards (1st stint in KC,) Surtain, Bell, etc.

It just seems like he asks his talented LB's to do the most and just ends up with them producing very little as a result.

The Bad Guy
07-15-2008, 10:34 AM
Cromartie was in the 2006 draft.

Merriman was taken before DJ, so was Ware.

The comparison really doesn't hold.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 10:41 AM
We miss on draft pics so much I forgot that Hali was our miss over cromartie

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 10:42 AM
Alex Gordon and Derrick Johnson are pretty synomonis with their colleges. Both were players of the year nationally

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 10:44 AM
Another thing that makes me compare the two.
I have heard this phrase over and over for the two

I watched this guy play in college... What are the coaches doing to him?

KcMizzou
07-15-2008, 10:47 AM
Alex is bit more of a disappointment (so far) in my mind. I think DJ's been solid... he just hasn't had a ton of flashy plays that make you take notice.

eazyb81
07-15-2008, 10:49 AM
Gordon is by far the bigger disappointment. He was the #1 overall prospect heading into the 2007 season and has been thoroughly below average since then while many of his peers have exploded.

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 10:54 AM
I think DJ goes to the PB this year with our DT play. I also see improvement in Harris, though he is not the answer at Mike LB.

EDIT: DJ should spend the majority of his time at will.

DaKCMan AP
07-15-2008, 11:00 AM
I think DJ goes to the PB this year with our DT play. I also see improvement in Harris, though he is not the answer at Mike LB.

EDIT: DJ should spend the majority of his time at will.

We'll see how DJ performs this year when he, presumably, gets to run free with Dorsey clogging up the middle.

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 11:02 AM
We'll see how DJ performs this year when he, presumably, gets to run free with Dorsey clogging up the middle.

Can you imagine if Tank come around? Whoaa.

StcChief
07-15-2008, 11:03 AM
this should be DJ's break out year. Dorsey,Hali, Boone up front he'll get more shots at QB

Deberg_1990
07-15-2008, 11:04 AM
Alex is the bigger disappoinement by far. Baseball is more of an individual effort than football is anyways. Yes, im aware that baseball is a team sport, but when your at the plate its you alone against one other player.

DJ is solid, but unspectacular. A few people were probably expecting the 2nd coming of DT and hes just not that type of player at all. In reality DT was more a a defensive lineman than a linebacker most of the time.

keg in kc
07-15-2008, 11:14 AM
DJ is underrated because he's an actual all-around linebacker rather than a pass-rushing specialist. He does everything well, but nothing specific stands out in your mind, in no small part because of the fact that he is asked to do everything. Personally, I thought he was at least on the verge of pro bowl level play last year, and I think (hope) this will be his break-out season, nationally speaking. But Chiefs fans should know better than to talk about him as somehow disappointing. Come on now.

Gordon's just young. We'll see what kind of player he is 2-3 years from now.

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 11:17 AM
DJ is underrated because he's an actual all-around linebacker rather than a pass-rushing specialist. He does everything well, but nothing specific stands out in your mind, in no small part because of the fact that he is asked to do everything. Personally, I thought he was at least on the verge of pro bowl level play last year, and I think (hope) this will be his break-out season, nationally speaking. But Chiefs fans should know better than to talk about him as somehow disappointing. Come on now.

Gordon's just young. We'll see what kind of player he is 2-3 years from now.

I agree. DJ is a well above average player.

Rausch
07-15-2008, 11:23 AM
DJ is underrated because he's an actual all-around linebacker rather than a pass-rushing specialist. He does everything well, but nothing specific stands out in your mind, in no small part because of the fact that he is asked to do everything.

He should be our Derrick Brooks. He's got the same talent and range...

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 11:24 AM
I don't think only 2 INT's over 3 years is "doing well"
Neither is 6 forced fumbles is "Doing well"

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 11:25 AM
Johnson has as many career INT's As Scott Fujita
and over the past 2 years DJ has only 2 more sacks Fujita.
I thought we were getting a larger up grade than that.

Valiant
07-15-2008, 11:25 AM
Anyone else get the same feelings on both of these players.
Difference in sports asside. Highly hyped players not living up to billing.
Both have some "solid" seasons but still dissapointed.
Marred by the fact there are other people in the draft that could have been taking by teams that are doing way better. Alex gordon- braun, longoria, zimmerman
Derrick Johnson- Merriman, Ware, Cromartie

Seasons??? How many years has Gordon been in the bigs??? 1.5???

Johnson is a let down from his hype, but is still a decent player.. Pro Bowler?? no, but a solid contributor to a bad defense.. I think the coaches are more to blame then anything..

And if you stuck Gordon with better players all around.. We would not be having this conversation.. Hypothetically Gordon leaves.. Goes to a contending team and all of sudden gets better, everybody is going to wonder why that is.. It is because we have maybe 3-5 guys on offense that are legitimate mlb players starting..

BigRock
07-15-2008, 11:43 AM
We miss on draft pics so much I forgot that Hali was our miss over cromartie
Not to pile on all the mistakes in this wildly informative thread, but Cromartie was taken before Hali.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 11:47 AM
We could have moved up on hali though.

Deberg_1990
07-15-2008, 11:47 AM
And if you stuck Gordon with better players all around.. We would not be having this conversation.. Hypothetically Gordon leaves.. Goes to a contending team and all of sudden gets better, everybody is going to wonder why that is.. It is because we have maybe 3-5 guys on offense that are legitimate mlb players starting..

Sorry, i dont buy that. Are you saying if Gordon was hitting behind A-Rod and Josh Hamilton he might see better pitches? Perhaps, but geez, nobody is scared of Alex Gordon. Hes seeing decent pitches right now. Hes just not doing anything with them. Hes striking out.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 11:48 AM
Seasons??? How many years has Gordon been in the bigs??? 1.5???

Johnson is a let down from his hype, but is still a decent player.. Pro Bowler?? no, but a solid contributor to a bad defense.. I think the coaches are more to blame then anything..

And if you stuck Gordon with better players all around.. We would not be having this conversation.. Hypothetically Gordon leaves.. Goes to a contending team and all of sudden gets better, everybody is going to wonder why that is.. It is because we have maybe 3-5 guys on offense that are legitimate mlb players starting..



How many errors has gload saved Gordon from this year? Do you think Prince Fielder would have dug those out?

Count Zarth
07-15-2008, 11:52 AM
Derrick Johnson led the NFL in tackles for loss last year.

KCrockaholic
07-15-2008, 11:56 AM
Not to pile on all the mistakes in this wildly informative thread, but Cromartie was taken before Hali.

lol i was thinking the same thing.

this comparison doesnt hold at all. DJ has by far out performed Alex Gordon.
plus i have a feeling DJ will be a pro-bowler this season....ok, bad topic, unless this guy can convince me other-wise.

KCrockaholic
07-15-2008, 11:57 AM
Derrick Johnson led the NFL in tackles for loss last year.

thank you

thurman merman
07-15-2008, 11:58 AM
i really don't understand people's problem with DJ. i think he is a great player.

Count Zarth
07-15-2008, 12:01 PM
Compare Derrick Johnson's production with other Cover 2 outside linebackers and you'll be satisfied.

If he's truly moving to the weakside fulltime this year, I'm excited to see what he'll do.

KCrockaholic
07-15-2008, 12:03 PM
i really don't understand people's problem with DJ. i think he is a great player.

i guess since DJ hasnt been to a pro-bowl yet that people are starting to think he was overhyped coming out of college...which he probably was a little bit. But overall hes done very well with KC, i hope we lock this guy up for most of his career.

KCrockaholic
07-15-2008, 12:04 PM
Compare Derrick Johnson's production with other Cover 2 outside linebackers and you'll be satisfied.

If he's truly moving to the weakside fulltime this year, I'm excited to see what he'll do.

im really excited to see what we will do on the weak side. that will be interesting.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 12:15 PM
clayton: Who are the other cover 2 linebackers?

Count Zarth
07-15-2008, 12:19 PM
clayton: Who are the other cover 2 linebackers?

I don't have time to do a full rundown now, but suffice it to say the vast majority of linebackers who make the Pro Bowl are either:

Middle linebackers

Outside linebackers in the 3-4 who pile up sacks because they're basically defensive ends.

Very few Cover 2 or even 4-3 outside linebackers get Pro Bowl nods.

Valiant
07-15-2008, 12:19 PM
gordon .253 BA 11hrs 49r 45rbi 90h 89k 22doubles
longoria .275 BA 16hrs 45r 53rbi 84h 82k 23doubles
zimmerm .257 ba 8hrs 24r 27rbi 53h 38k 11doubles
braun .283 ba 23hrs 52r 66rbi 108h 78k 24doubles


So besides Braun, who is on a team with tons of talent.. which is leaps and bounds better then Gordon?? Am I saying Gordon will become the second coming of Brett?? NO, but you idiots that are saying he is a bust are just that.. idiots... And only after one and half years..

He was the consensus pick.. The Royals made the right selection.. No one knew how much better of a player Braun would have become or he would have been the consensus pick.. It also helps to fall into a great situation that became the Brewers..

But after all the talk from you guys I would expect the other three to be batting over 320 with hardly any SO's..

Valiant
07-15-2008, 12:21 PM
lol i was thinking the same thing.

this comparison doesnt hold at all. DJ has by far out performed Alex Gordon.
plus i have a feeling DJ will be a pro-bowler this season....ok, bad topic, unless this guy can convince me other-wise.

But by comparison.. How great was DJ after his first 24 games played??

Sure-Oz
07-15-2008, 12:27 PM
gordon .253 BA 11hrs 49r 45rbi 90h 89k 22doubles
longoria .275 BA 16hrs 45r 53rbi 84h 82k 23doubles
zimmerm .257 ba 8hrs 24r 27rbi 53h 38k 11doubles
braun .283 ba 23hrs 52r 66rbi 108h 78k 24doubles


So besides Braun, who is on a team with tons of talent.. which is leaps and bounds better then Gordon?? Am I saying Gordon will become the second coming of Brett?? NO, but you idiots that are saying he is a bust are just that.. idiots... And only after one and half years..

He was the consensus pick.. The Royals made the right selection.. No one knew how much better of a player Braun would have become or he would have been the consensus pick.. It also helps to fall into a great situation that became the Brewers..

But after all the talk from you guys I would expect the other three to be batting over 320 with hardly any SO's..

There are alot of "studs" struggling or doing OK in the majors. Joey Votto's #'s are about the same as gordons except avg is higher. Jay Bruce is struggling mightily as well right now with a .420 slugg % and 260+ avg

Chase Headley is batting .280 with 6 hr's but striking out alot, Clayton Kershaw came up and showed a 4.50era or so. So not everyone gets a shot and maybe these guys have been in the game alot less than Gordon but it shows there are alot of top prospects that will take time. Rare cases when you get a Braun coming up and lighting it up etc....we just have no patience

DeezNutz
07-15-2008, 12:36 PM
gordon .253 BA 11hrs 49r 45rbi 90h 89k 22doubles
longoria .275 BA 16hrs 45r 53rbi 84h 82k 23doubles
zimmerm .257 ba 8hrs 24r 27rbi 53h 38k 11doubles
braun .283 ba 23hrs 52r 66rbi 108h 78k 24doubles


So besides Braun, who is on a team with tons of talent.. which is leaps and bounds better then Gordon?? Am I saying Gordon will become the second coming of Brett?? NO, but you idiots that are saying he is a bust are just that.. idiots... And only after one and half years..

He was the consensus pick.. The Royals made the right selection.. No one knew how much better of a player Braun would have become or he would have been the consensus pick.. It also helps to fall into a great situation that became the Brewers..

But after all the talk from you guys I would expect the other three to be batting over 320 with hardly any SO's..

I'm not reading this thread in its entirety again, but I don't believe anyone called Gordon a bust. Like KC Mizzou said, Alex has been disappointing, and this is true. He was the right pick. No doubt. Most "experts" claimed in an average year (no Upton), Gordon would be the #1 overall pick without question.

But of the players listed, the closest comparison to Gordon thus far is Zimmerman, who isn't a good comparison this season because he's been hurt and played in only 50 games. Here's Zimmerman's stats for his first full two seasons--he played 20 games the same year he was drafted in '05, but I didn't list this:

2006: .287 .351 .471 20 HR and 110 RBI (ROY-2)
2007: .266 .330 .458 24 HR and 91 RBI

I agree that Gordon would have been well served if he could have come into the league and not have been expected to save the franchise. People like Keitzman were claiming that it would be a disappointment if Gordon didn't hit at least .285 with 25 HRs. Geez. The kid was hitting fifth in his first ever game, if I'm remembering correctly. But this was a player who was supposed to be an advanced college bat, the type of prospect who was supposed to make others around him better.

The problem with the Royals isn't Alex Gordon, though. If the organization had been run like a real franchise, spending money, drafting the best talent..., we probably wouldn't spend much time pining for the Brauns and the Longorias (not of the Eva variety).

Sure-Oz is right that not everyone lights it up immediately, but often the true superstars do, and that's what this team needs. Again, not Alex Gordon's fault.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 12:55 PM
I don't think Alex is a bust nor a bad player. Just a dissapointment. I also think there are better players that came out the same year, and I hear the same thing about both players

ChiefsCountry
07-15-2008, 01:23 PM
Wow, you can tell we have no patience with players anymore to grow and develop. Everybody has to be a star from day one now.

Tribal Warfare
07-15-2008, 01:27 PM
I don't think only 2 INT's over 3 years is "doing well"
Neither is 6 forced fumbles is "Doing well"





How about leading the leading the league in tackles for loss? The main reason DJ doesn't have flashy stats is due he shuts off his side when it comes to the passing and running game.

eazyb81
07-15-2008, 01:31 PM
im really excited to see what we will do on the weak side. that will be interesting.

Yep, DJ should have a huge season now that he's at the correct position and he has Dorsey to take up blockers.

I've never really thought of him as a bust candidate until this thread. He doesn't have huge sack numbers, but that certainly doesn't make him a bust.

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 01:36 PM
We miss on draft pics so much I forgot that Hali was our miss over cromartie

How was he our miss when Cromartie was taken before him? And I don't see how he is a miss. You could always call a player a miss when there is almost always going to be a player or two taken around your pick that turned out a little bit better than your pick. That's just the way it works out, you won't always get the best player. Doesn't mean it was a miss.

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 01:41 PM
Johnson has as many career INT's As Scott Fujita
and over the past 2 years DJ has only 2 more sacks Fujita.
I thought we were getting a larger up grade than that.

Your not getting the point. We barely ever blitz DJ. How are we supposed to criticize him for a lack of sacks? Hell, Derrick Johnson has more sacks than Lance Briggs despite being in the NFL for two less years. Why do neither have alot of sacks? Hmmm, check the system they both play in.

As far as interceptions, I think it is more than just a coincidence that both of DJ's interceptions last year came when he was playing on the rightside or the weakside.

Your way off on this one.

Tribal Warfare
07-15-2008, 01:42 PM
How was he our miss when Cromartie was taken before him?

wrong draft class 1st of all

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 01:42 PM
We could have moved up on hali though.

Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda. Hindsight is 20/20. Every team has a player that they should or shouldn't have taken. Get over it. Hali is still a solid player.

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 01:45 PM
wrong draft class 1st of all

I'm talking about Demonpenz calling Hali a miss.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 01:45 PM
I guess the main reason DJ has been a dissapointment was because he was so good at texas and we all got to see that when we lived in big 12 country. Hopefully he will get there
CHIEFS GO!

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 01:49 PM
I guess the main reason DJ has been a dissapointment was because he was so good at texas and we all got to see that when we lived in big 12 country. Hopefully he will get there
CHIEFS GO!

He's not really that far off. He played damn near a PB season last year, with crappy DT play. I think he's gonna shine this year.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 02:54 PM
We miss on draft pics so much I forgot that Hali was our miss over cromartie

Cromartie went 1 pick before us, but I still remember everyone telling me Hali was a better pick when I pined for Cromartie for months...

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 03:04 PM
Too me getting a game changer like cro would have been worth trading up a spot. The ceiling on hali is what it is. A guy that gets pushed around at times but can get 5 or 6 sacks year

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:06 PM
Too me getting a game changer like cro would have been worth trading up a spot. The ceiling on hali is what it is. A guy that gets pushed around at times but can get 5 or 6 sacks year

I've made that argument forever....but you're about to get railed on Hali seems to have alot of fans around here who think he's great.

I like to go back and look at those arguments against Cromartie when I wanted him going into that draft.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 03:09 PM
I wanted Cro too but actually, but the the knee was a risk, if you pull up the thread after we got Hali. I wasn't happy, but everyone assured me that Hali was a hard worker bla bla bla. I have a feeling we are going to be looking for another DE soon

Count Zarth
07-15-2008, 03:10 PM
Mecca's just getting warmed up for the preseason! I look forward to the Croyle-bashing.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:11 PM
Yea we need another DE, I said going into that that Hali was what he was, and had very little upside and so far that appears true he's essentially been the same player his whole time here.

That's not saying he's a bad player, but he's far from a #1 DE.

Count Zarth
07-15-2008, 03:13 PM
he's essentially been the same player his whole time here.


All two years! Holy shit!

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 03:13 PM
We always seem to shy away from players from Miami, Flordia state, and Flordia.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 03:15 PM
You would figure hali would get better on his pass moves, instead it seems the O-tackles figured him out fast. He is also injured most of the time :(

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:15 PM
All two years! Holy shit!

And has showed 0 development, isn't that pretty much exactly what I said when I said he had little upside and was basically a player that was what he was and wouldn't get much if at all better?

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:16 PM
We always seem to shy away from players from Miami, Flordia state, and Flordia.

We don't like USC players either, yea F those schools with great traditions that are NFL factories.

Count Zarth
07-15-2008, 03:16 PM
And has showed 0 development

Haha. OK. My guess is the coaching staff doesn't share your sentiment.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:18 PM
Hali is exactly the same player today he was when he was drafted, I don't see how that can be argued, he hasn't gotten better, actually it could be argued he was worse last year.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 03:19 PM
I hope Hali gets better, that was sad when his mom came all the way from Albany or wherever just to see him pushed around :(

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:20 PM
I'd honestly love to know why when Miami produced NFL players every year and now SC does it and our team can't take 1 player from those schools in those time frames.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 03:22 PM
We pick the hard working high motor guys :( not the game changers

Count Zarth
07-15-2008, 03:24 PM
We pick the hard working high motor guys :( not the game changers

If someone falls on the fumble Hali caused in Indy last season it's a game-changing play.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 03:26 PM
I want a game changer :(

ChiefsCountry
07-15-2008, 03:26 PM
Wasn't Hali hurt last year?

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:27 PM
I want a game changer :(

The difference in teams that win and us is this....the Giants get in the 2nd round Umenyiora and in the 3rd Tuck, we use a 1st on Hali.

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 03:28 PM
Wasn't Hali hurt last year?

injury prone :(

Count Zarth
07-15-2008, 03:28 PM
CHIEFS SUCK!

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:33 PM
LOL stop over reading things, Hali can be part of a good team, he just can't be the best end on your team...

Demonpenz
07-15-2008, 03:35 PM
On a Superbowl team hali is probally your 3rd or 4th DE.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:35 PM
If it's a defensive heavy team he is probably a 3 and rotates in.

ChiefsCountry
07-15-2008, 03:37 PM
On a Superbowl team hali is probally your 3rd or 4th DE.

Bullshit, quit looking at the freaking Giants thats an execpation not the rule.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:38 PM
Bullshit, quit looking at the freaking Giants thats an execpation not the rule.

It depends what team it is.......give me a Superbowl contender he'd start on, cause I'll tell you right now he doesn't start on GB or Dallas...or Indy or well a bunch of the AFC teams.

Sure-Oz
07-15-2008, 03:43 PM
It depends what team it is.......give me a Superbowl contender he'd start on, cause I'll tell you right now he doesn't start on GB or Dallas...or Indy or well a bunch of the AFC teams.

Tamba would rotate, he's servicable at best so far.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:46 PM
Tamba would rotate, he's servicable at best so far.

And that is basically what we said....

We had such bad drafts there for awhile that a serviceable guy like Hali is looked at as a better pick than he should be.

ChiefsCountry
07-15-2008, 03:46 PM
It depends what team it is.......give me a Superbowl contender he'd start on, cause I'll tell you right now he doesn't start on GB or Dallas...or Indy or well a bunch of the AFC teams.

Of course not in Dallas or New England or San Diego or Pittsburgh or Cleveland, he is not a 3-4 end. I think in Indy he could start over Mathis, he could start in Jacksonville, Buffalo and Tennessee. Thats the AFC contenders. He is a fringe #1, solid #2 and he was 20th pick in the first round its not like he was a top 10 pick.

Sure-Oz
07-15-2008, 03:48 PM
And that is basically what we said....

We had such bad drafts there for awhile that a serviceable guy like Hali is looked at as a better pick than he should be.

They got him cause he produced in the college level to have solid #'s, nothing about physical traits etc....

They should've done their HW, we can do way better

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:49 PM
Buffalo has awful ends....and I don't really think they're a both contender same for Tennessee.

Jacksonville, ehh, they just drafted 2 guys and have the guys that were already there that's iffy.

I also have a real hard time thinking he'd start over Mathis who is a sack machine and fits what a cover 2 defense is all about, either way if Hali is your #1 end that is a pretty bad sign.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 03:50 PM
They got him cause he produced in the college level to have solid #'s, nothing about physical traits etc....

They should've done their HW, we can do way better

I said before that draft he was pretty polished, was what he was and had very limited upside, he was physically maxed out and had little room to get better, people argued.....

Well lets see what has been proven about him so far...

Deberg_1990
07-15-2008, 03:50 PM
I want a game changer :(

Hopefully thats what Dorsey will be.

Sure-Oz
07-15-2008, 03:56 PM
Hopefully thats what Dorsey will be.

He probably will be, we actually took a stud from a big name championship contending school

Im sure he will disrupt big time, we just need a defensive end that can sack the qb now

CupidStunt
07-15-2008, 03:57 PM
We don't like USC players either, yea F those schools with great traditions that are NFL factories.

Penn State
Texas
Penn State
LSU
LSU

Yeah, the Chiefs hate big schools. Shame on them for ignoring the talent-rich programs.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 04:00 PM
LSU is a fine example..Penn State eh and Texas is very hit or miss when it comes to their players turning out.

ChiefsCountry
07-15-2008, 04:05 PM
The schools the Chiefs have historically took players from are from LSU, Texas, UCLA, and Notre Dame.

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 04:08 PM
Too me getting a game changer like cro would have been worth trading up a spot. The ceiling on hali is what it is. A guy that gets pushed around at times but can get 5 or 6 sacks year

Again, why the negativity? Since when is Hali a guy that can get 5 or 6 sacks a year? He has already gone well over that the past 2 years despite playing injured and according to Gunther Cunningham there were 4 or 5 other would-be sacks that he failed to wrap up. I see absolutely no reason to believe Hali is only a "5 or 6 sack" a year type. No reason at all. IMO he isn't far off from what Jared Allen did his first 2 years in the league.

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 04:10 PM
I wanted Cro too but actually, but the the knee was a risk, if you pull up the thread after we got Hali. I wasn't happy, but everyone assured me that Hali was a hard worker bla bla bla. I have a feeling we are going to be looking for another DE soon

So you are already assuming Hali is a bust?

We might be looking for another DE, but it won't be to replace Hali. Last time I checked the 4-3 requires two DE's so we need somebody to line up opposite of Hali.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 04:11 PM
So you are already assuming Hali is a bust?

We might be looking for another DE, but it won't be to replace Hali. Last time I checked the 4-3 requires two DE's so we need somebody to line up opposite of Hali.

Well he was just saying it would be better to have Cromartie which I don't think anyone will argue with at this point.

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 04:13 PM
And has showed 0 development, isn't that pretty much exactly what I said when I said he had little upside and was basically a player that was what he was and wouldn't get much if at all better?

Oh now, he has 4.5 less sacks than Jared Allen did over his first 2 years in the league. He's a bust.

On a serious note, your thought process with this is bullcrap. Look at guys like Aaron Kampman and Kyle Vanden Bosch. Neither broke out until after 4 or 5 years in the NFL. Those first 3 or 4 years it sure probably seemed like they were what they were and there was not going to be any improvement. That would have been a wrong assumption. But Hali already is what he is after 2 years? Bullcrap. How about we give him a chance to play healthy before we pass judgement?

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 04:16 PM
On a Superbowl team hali is probally your 3rd or 4th DE.

Oh give me a ****ing break. Tampa Bay won a super bowl with a dominating defense that had Greg Spires at one DE spot. Hali is already three times the player Spires ever was. 3rd or 4th DE my ass.

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 04:17 PM
I think Hali's best years are in front of him. Is he maxed out physically? maybe so,but he's got the size,and speed, and will only get better with experience. I'm in no way giving up on him. I expect BIG things from him playing beside Dorsey.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 04:19 PM
Oh now, he has 4.5 less sacks than Jared Allen did over his first 2 years in the league. He's a bust.

On a serious note, your thought process with this is bullcrap. Look at guys like Aaron Kampman and Kyle Vanden Bosch. Neither broke out until after 4 or 5 years in the NFL. Those first 3 or 4 years it sure probably seemed like they were what they were and there was not going to be any improvement. That would have been a wrong assumption. But Hali already is what he is after 2 years? Bullcrap. How about we give him a chance to play healthy before we pass judgement?

Were those guys first round picks? Yea they weren't...

You really shouldn't be waiting 4 and 5 years on a first rounder...and for the record most players don't break out after 5 years, usually after 3 you can say "he is what he is" and 95% of the time it'll be correct.

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 04:21 PM
Were those guys first round picks? Yea they weren't...

You really shouldn't be waiting 4 and 5 years on a first rounder...and for the record most players don't break out after 5 years, usually after 3 you can say "he is what he is" and 95% of the time it'll be correct.

You mean like JA?

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 04:22 PM
It depends what team it is.......give me a Superbowl contender he'd start on, cause I'll tell you right now he doesn't start on GB or Dallas...or Indy or well a bunch of the AFC teams.

Uhh, yeah he would start in Green Bay. Green Bay's starting DE opposite of Kampman is Cullen Jenkins who had all of 1 sack last year. Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila is only a pass rush specialist now but is not the starter.

Would he start in Dallas, SD, Pitt, or NE? No because they run the 3-4.

Would he start in Indy? Well I would take him over Robert Mathis. Mathis might be a better pass rusher (for now at least) but Hali is a more complete end.

I don't see what the problem is with Hali. He could be Jamaal Anderson who didn't have a single sack as a rookie. He outproduced Gaines Adams rookie numbers. Or to compare him to starting DE's on a similar defense I don't see how he is any worse than Alex Brown or Adewale Ogunleye in Chicago. Without Tommie Harris in the middle both are average. But with Tommie Harris both are capable of 10+ sacks. With Glenn Dorsey in the middle Hali is more than capable of 10+ sacks IMO.

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 04:24 PM
Hali will get double digit sacks this year. Who wants a sig bet?

Mecca
07-15-2008, 04:24 PM
You mean like JA?

Allen hasn't been in the league 5 years right?

Mecca
07-15-2008, 04:26 PM
Uhh, yeah he would start in Green Bay. Green Bay's starting DE opposite of Kampman is Cullen Jenkins who had all of 1 sack last year. Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila is only a pass rush specialist now but is not the starter.

Would he start in Dallas, SD, Pitt, or NE? No because they run the 3-4.

Would he start in Indy? Well I would take him over Robert Mathis. Mathis might be a better pass rusher (for now at least) but Hali is a more complete end.

I don't see what the problem is with Hali. He could be Jamaal Anderson who didn't have a single sack as a rookie. He outproduced Gaines Adams rookie numbers. Or to compare him to starting DE's on a similar defense I don't see how he is any worse than Alex Brown or Adewale Ogunleye in Chicago. Without Tommie Harris in the middle both are average. But with Tommie Harris both are capable of 10+ sacks. With Glenn Dorsey in the middle Hali is more than capable of 10+ sacks IMO.

You're pretty much crazy but ok....Pass rushers are one of the most valued things in the league, if you are taking a guy because he's more complete then can't get the same pressure or sack numbers, it's something other teams would laugh at you for.

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 04:26 PM
Hasn't been in the league 3 years either.

You said after 3 yrs.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 04:28 PM
Hasn't been in the league 3 years either.

You said after 3 yrs.

Allen showed more flashes than Hali has however, Allen also developed from a small school middle round project into the player he was, I'd tell you Hali was incredibly more polished coming out of college than Allen was but Allen has more natural tools to work with.

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 04:29 PM
Osi's stats:
mbles
G GS Total Solo Ast Sck SFTY PDef Int Yds Avg Lng TDs FUM Lost
2007 New York Giants 16 16 52 40 12 13.0 0 0 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2006 New York Giants 11 11 31 24 7 6.0 -- 2 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2005 New York Giants 16 16 70 48 22 14.5 -- 3 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2004 New York Giants 16 7 58 40 18 7.0 0 3 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2003 New York Giants 13 1 20 13 7 1.0 -- 0 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --

Hmm? Osi didn't do shit till his third yr.

What season is this one for Tamba?

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 04:31 PM
You're pretty much crazy but ok....Pass rushers are one of the most valued things in the league, if you are taking a guy because he's more complete then can't get the same pressure or sack numbers, it's something other teams would laugh at you for.

The funny thing is Hali has only 1.0 less sack than Robert Mathis the last 2 years.

kcchiefsus
07-15-2008, 04:32 PM
Allen showed more flashes than Hali has however, Allen also developed from a small school middle round project into the player he was, I'd tell you Hali was incredibly more polished coming out of college than Allen was but Allen has more natural tools to work with.

The only thing Allen has that Hali doesn't is a better pass rush repetoire (spelling?). Hali is easily the more physically gifted and athletic of the two.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 04:34 PM
You're comparing him to completely different players though, Hali isn't a great athlete, he has a slow first step it's always been one of his knocks, he is polished coaching isn't going to make him much better he can't just sprout more physical talent.

You're comparing him to Allen who went in the 4th from a small school with some character flaws and with tools but in need of coaching to redefine his game.

And Umenyiora who was a 2nd rounder out of even smaller then than it is now, Troy. Who was another all the talent needs coaching and polish guys, Hali is the opposite of them, he's been polished from day 1, he doesn't have the great natural tools they do though.

That's why I said he lacks upside, he doesn't have the great physical base waiting to come out when he puts it together, he gets by with technique because he doesn't have the great tools.

Mecca
07-15-2008, 04:35 PM
The only thing Allen has that Hali doesn't is a better pass rush repetoire (spelling?). Hali is easily the more physically gifted and athletic of the two.

I disagree with that, on a pure physical standpoint Allen is more talented.

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 04:40 PM
Which one of the players taken after Hali in the first rnd would have been such a better pick for us?


Laurence Maroney
Manny Lawson Davin Joseph
Johnathan Joseph
John McCargo
DeAngelo Williams
Marcedes Lewis
Nick Mangold
Joseph Addai
Kelly Jennings
Mathias Kiwanuka

SPATCH
07-15-2008, 04:43 PM
yeah, and it's like... alex gordon should be playing better and stuff, right???

beach tribe
07-15-2008, 04:45 PM
yeah, and it's like... alex gordon should be playing better and stuff, right???

Yes he should.

Tribal Warfare
07-16-2008, 12:38 AM
Hali isn't a great athlete, he has a slow first step it's always been one of his knocks




Hali has a great 1st step, the problem is his acceleration beyond the 1st five yards.