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View Full Version : Int'l Issues Ethnic cleaning in Badhdad?


SBK
07-21-2008, 09:56 PM
I'm watching Nightline and The Messiah is being interviewed. He said that there was 'ethnic cleansing' in Baghdad which is what lead to the political changes there.

I hadn't heard that before........?

Also said that today knowing what he does now he still would not support the surge. Said hind sight was 20/20 but he thinks the solution is political and disagrees with the Bush admin position of looking the other way.

Taco John
07-21-2008, 10:09 PM
I'm watching Nightline and The Messiah is being interviewed. He said that there was 'ethnic cleansing' in Baghdad which is what lead to the political changes there.

I hadn't heard that before........?

Also said that today knowing what he does now he still would not support the surge. Said hind sight was 20/20 but he thinks the solution is political and disagrees with the Bush admin position of looking the other way.



You hadn't heard that before? Is your only source of news Fox, or something?

SBK
07-21-2008, 10:12 PM
You hadn't heard that before? Is your only source of news Fox, or something?

I don't bury my head in news, that's why I didn't put a LMAO or anything like that. I knew there was fighting there, but I hadn't heard about ethnic cleansing.

I'm skeptical, we went to war in Bosnia for ethnic cleansing that wasn't actually happening......

Taco John
07-21-2008, 10:13 PM
This news came from the GAO, by the way...

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/30/sigir-report-oct07/

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1550441,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1573037,00.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-is-disintegrating-as-ethnic-cleansing-takes-hold-478937.html

Taco John
07-21-2008, 10:16 PM
I don't bury my head in news, that's why I didn't put a LMAO or anything like that. I knew there was fighting there, but I hadn't heard about ethnic cleansing.

I'm skeptical, we went to war in Bosnia for ethnic cleansing that wasn't actually happening......


I'm not suprised. The main stream media doesn't carry a lot of stories that put The Surge in any sort of a scrutinous light. They're out there, but they don't get dwelt on for very long because of what happened with Vietnam.

jAZ
07-21-2008, 10:25 PM
I'm watching Nightline and The Messiah is being interviewed. He said that there was 'ethnic cleansing' in Baghdad which is what lead to the political changes there.

I hadn't heard that before........?

Also said that today knowing what he does now he still would not support the surge. Said hind sight was 20/20 but he thinks the solution is political and disagrees with the Bush admin position of looking the other way.

By the time the surge came about, most all of Iraq had been ethnically cleansed, so to speak.

SBK
07-21-2008, 11:00 PM
By the time the surge came about, most all of Iraq had been ethnically cleansed, so to speak.

Oh come on. :shake:

Was it a whole race/sex/religion, and if so who?

jAZ
07-21-2008, 11:19 PM
Oh come on. :shake:

Was it a whole race/sex/religion, and if so who?

I don't know what this means, but my guess is that you think I'm saying something more than I am.

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Taco John
07-21-2008, 11:20 PM
It's been awhile since I've seen the numbers, but as I recall, at one time Baghdad had a majority 65% Sunnis. Currently the majority is 75% Shiite.

patteeu
07-22-2008, 07:02 AM
Ethnic cleansing doesn't have to mean anything more than moving minorities out of an area and forcing them to relocate somewhere else. The propaganda during the Bosnia conflict gave some people the impression that ethnic cleansing was tantamount or even equivalent to genocide, which isn't the case.

Yes, there has been ethnic cleansing of neighborhoods in Baghdad. Yes, that has helped to reduce the sectarian strife. Yes, some ethnic minorities are returning to their old neighborhoods but this is probably a pretty small group compared to the numbers who were dislocated. Yes, Obama is a fool for saying he'd still oppose the surge and for saying that the surge hasn't resulted in political progress.

SBK
07-22-2008, 07:50 AM
Ethnic cleansing doesn't have to mean anything more than moving minorities out of an area and forcing them to relocate somewhere else. The propaganda during the Bosnia conflict gave some people the impression that ethnic cleansing was tantamount or even equivalent to genocide, which isn't the case.

Yes, there has been ethnic cleansing of neighborhoods in Baghdad. Yes, that has helped to reduce the sectarian strife. Yes, some ethnic minorities are returning to their old neighborhoods but this is probably a pretty small group compared to the numbers who were dislocated. Yes, Obama is a fool for saying he'd still oppose the surge and for saying that the surge hasn't resulted in political progress.

If this is what ethnic cleansing is (I thought it was more like genocide which is why the quote struck me as strange)--is this even a big deal?

If the area I live in got super violent I'd move voluntarily.

jAZ
07-22-2008, 07:59 AM
is this even a big deal?

Are you kidding?

SBK
07-22-2008, 08:02 AM
Are you kidding?

What kind of cleansing is it? Did they move people in order to lower violence, or did they kill people to lower violence?

If people had to move to get out of a bad neighborhood I would imagine this is a much smaller deal that people will make of it.

I could be wrong though, I'm totally uninformed on this one.

beer bacon
07-22-2008, 08:04 AM
What kind of cleansing is it? Did they move people in order to lower violence, or did they kill people to lower violence?

If people had to move to get out of a bad neighborhood I would imagine this is a much smaller deal that people will make of it.

I could be wrong though, I'm totally uninformed on this one.

It was just a bunch of Iraqis moving to the suburbs for the better public school system.

***SPRAYER
07-22-2008, 08:05 AM
The Assyrian Christians have been annihalated.

Direckshun
07-22-2008, 08:05 AM
As people unconditionally credit the surge for succeeding in reducing violence, they forget a lot of other factors have contributed to the solution.

Not the least of these has been ethnic cleansing throughout the red zone and other high conflict areas. Ethnic cleansing has finally started to relent now that there's fewer people to "clean."

***SPRAYER
07-22-2008, 08:08 AM
Basically anybody who had it "good" under Sadaam, it's open season on them.

beer bacon
07-22-2008, 08:10 AM
Basically anybody who had it "good" under Sadaam, it's open season on them.

Also, anyone who was a minority in their neighborhood.

SBK
07-22-2008, 08:13 AM
Also, anyone who was a minority in their neighborhood.

I wouldn't move south of downtown Atlanta, I guess I've been cleansed dirty south style.

BucEyedPea
07-22-2008, 08:21 AM
As people unconditionally credit the surge for succeeding in reducing violence, they forget a lot of other factors have contributed to the solution.

Including the Anbar turnaround which started before the surge. I posted a thread on it at that time.

Here are a few more things to look at:

Will violence renew as troops leave? We don't know that. This is why a political solution is the only solution.

If violence is truly down, why does Bush administration want a permanent, open-ended military presence in the country with at least 14 permanent military bases and am embassy the size of the Vatican?

This right off the bat tells me the Bush administration's war was not about liberation and independence but imperialism.

I will give the surge some credit, because force suppresses violence but it is not a permanent fix.

jAZ
07-22-2008, 08:24 AM
What kind of cleansing is it? Did they move people in order to lower violence, or did they kill people to lower violence?

If people had to move to get out of a bad neighborhood I would imagine this is a much smaller deal that people will make of it.

I could be wrong though, I'm totally uninformed on this one.

They didn't do either "in order to lower violence".

500,000 - 1,000,000 people have been killed in an ethnic civil war which much like Bosnia is resulting in widespread ethnic cleansing.

Hundreds of thousands have been killed.
Approx 2,000,000 have been driven from their homes and out of the country, largely at gunpoint and based on the threat of your family being murdered.
Another 2,000,000 have been driven from their homes and into other regions of the country, largely at gunpoint and based on the threat of your family being murdered.

jAZ
07-22-2008, 08:25 AM
the solution
That (inadvertently) strikes the right tone for this discussion.

Fat Elvis
07-22-2008, 08:30 AM
Ethnic cleansing doesn't have to mean anything more than moving minorities out of an area and forcing them to relocate somewhere else. The propaganda during the Bosnia conflict gave some people the impression that ethnic cleansing was tantamount or even equivalent to genocide, which isn't the case.

Yes, there has been ethnic cleansing of neighborhoods in Baghdad. Yes, that has helped to reduce the sectarian strife. Yes, some ethnic minorities are returning to their old neighborhoods but this is probably a pretty small group compared to the numbers who were dislocated. Yes, Obama is a fool for saying he'd still oppose the surge and for saying that the surge hasn't resulted in political progress.


I bet this guy would like you on the witness stand testifying for him regarding genocide in the Bosnia conflict.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080722/ap_on_re_eu/serbia_karadzic

***SPRAYER
07-22-2008, 08:33 AM
I'd like to know why this Al Sadr fella is still running around loose. Something stinks.

HonestChieffan
07-22-2008, 08:35 AM
We aint leaving without a major long term committment to a base.

Direckshun
07-22-2008, 08:35 AM
I'd like to know why this Al Sadr fella is still running around loose. Something stinks.
Al Sadr is another overlooked reason as to why violence is down. He's called down his fighters for the time being.

***SPRAYER
07-22-2008, 08:36 AM
Al Sadr is another overlooked reason as to why violence is down. He's called down his fighters for the time being.


And once we leave?

Direckshun
07-22-2008, 08:37 AM
And once we leave?
Depends on his political influence. That's why securing political progress is the key for this country.

StcChief
07-22-2008, 01:05 PM
Including the Anbar turnaround which started before the surge. I posted a thread on it at that time.

Here are a few more things to look at:

Will violence renew as troops leave? We don't know that. This is why a political solution is the only solution.

If violence is truly down, why does Bush administration want a permanent, open-ended military presence in the country with at least 14 permanent military bases and am embassy the size of the Vatican?

This right off the bat tells me the Bush administration's war was not about liberation and independence but imperialism.

I will give the surge some credit, because force suppresses violence but it is not a permanent fix.it's the new oil producing 51st state....

we could just call it a territory and be done with it.

SBK
07-22-2008, 01:07 PM
They didn't do either "in order to lower violence".

500,000 - 1,000,000 people have been killed in an ethnic civil war which much like Bosnia is resulting in widespread ethnic cleansing.

Hundreds of thousands have been killed.
Approx 2,000,000 have been driven from their homes and out of the country, largely at gunpoint and based on the threat of your family being murdered.
Another 2,000,000 have been driven from their homes and into other regions of the country, largely at gunpoint and based on the threat of your family being murdered.

LMAO

I'm sure Bush slaughtered 10,000 with a tree trunk and drank the blood of 50,000 more.

WilliamTheIrish
07-22-2008, 01:14 PM
Ethnic cleaning in Badhdad?

Do they have Mexicans doing lawn care and hotel environmental services in Iraq?

Oh, you meant ethnic cleansing.

SBK
07-22-2008, 01:15 PM
Do they have Mexicans doing lawn care and hotel environmental services in Iraq?

Oh, you meant ethnic cleansing.

I caught that right after I hit submit, but nothing I could do then. LMAO

patteeu
07-23-2008, 07:53 AM
Including the Anbar turnaround which started before the surge. I posted a thread on it at that time.

Here are a few more things to look at:

Will violence renew as troops leave? We don't know that. This is why a political solution is the only solution.

If violence is truly down, why does Bush administration want a permanent, open-ended military presence in the country with at least 14 permanent military bases and am embassy the size of the Vatican?

This right off the bat tells me the Bush administration's war was not about liberation and independence but imperialism.

I will give the surge some credit, because force suppresses violence but it is not a permanent fix.

It's not coincidental that the people predicting violence when the troops leave are often the same ones urging the most rapid withdrawal. The sooner we withdraw, the more likely their prediction will be realized. Even if our troops are currently the only thing standing between the relative peace now and renewed conflict, the longer we stay, the more invested in peace the Iraqis will become. With every passing day, political reconciliation advances.